It reads like an Onion article, but it really happened. A substitute teacher told her class of 7-year olds that Santa isn’t real and their parents are the ones who bought the presents. The school says they “disciplined [the teacher] over the gaffe.”
Here are two comments from parents:
“My lad was nearly in tears and so was everyone else in the class — especially as it was so close to Christmas. I thought it was wrong.”
“He was distraught about it. He’s only seven-years-old and it’s part of the magic of Christmas to him.”
I don’t understand parents that lie to their kids about Santa, then get mad when someone tells their kids the truth. It’s bound to happen sometime.
Aren’t teachers supposed to tell the truth? To give knowledge and tools to discover truth?
(via)
like PZ said. sounds like some smart-arsed kids enjoying getting their teacher in trouble.
Personally I think the best idea is to keep lying to kids as long as possible then you don’t have to buy them any presents and can claim they where obviously not good enough this year. Just to make sure tell them about the magic of praying and you can also claim that they’re not praying hard enough.
I like Jabster’s idea :-) I think the whole pretending there’s a Santa thing is ridiculous. When I have children, they will know that Santa is just as silly as Jesus.
You can have the “magic of Christmas” without lying to your children about a fat man sliding down the chimney and eating your cookies. Those parents are just whiners, I say.
Jesus is an historical figure. He did actually exist. Whether or not he is the Son of God is something you need to figure out. If, indeed, you believe in a creator.
Comparing Santa Claus to Jesus is just downright ludicrous.
Perhaps you might want to get your head out of your third point of contact…
St. Nicholas was an actual person. Jesus has not been proven to have existed. No account of an actual Jesus Christ has been verified.
And the idea of Santa Claus may even be able to be traced back farther to the Wild Huntsman, who, depending on which culture you ask, is taken to be Odin.
To be fair, the time periods aren’t exactly comparable, and Santa isn’t really based on Saint Nicholas. And there is at least decent evidence for Jesus’ existence.
Well, judging by some of these posts, we are indeed in the end times where there is a famine for the word of God.
There is definite order in the universe. This existence did not just “happen”. The fool has said to theirself that there is no God.
You worship the creation – and forget the creator.
“There is definite order in the universe.”
Please explain how you can measure “order” and also why it cannot occur without not only a creator god but your creator god.
‘This existence did not just “happen”’
Please explain why you believe this to be true and also how your version of a creator god did just “happen”.
“The fool has said to theirself that there is no God.”
Please explain why this should be true without using your only holy text as evidence.
“You worship the creation – and forget the creator.”
Please explain what you even mean by worship the creation and also assuiming there is a creator god why would it wish to be worshiped by us.
Ezekiel, do you even know enough about your own religion to realise that you’re just continuing a 2000 year tradition of proclaiming that the end of the world is upon us? Seriously, ever since its inception, Christians have been spouting that crap. They were wrong. You’re wrong. Shut up. Go away.
Sorry, I have no fondness for fostering delusions either, but my self-preservation instinct says “Teacher, if you want to lose your job or get written up or find your tires slashed in the parking lot, then smile and nod when the kids go on about Santa and find another topic for discussion…surely the curriculum offers several?” We all respect reality, and like it or not, that’s what it is in most schools right now.
My observation of raising my kids in a liberal church was, many of the adults got more upset about telling the kids there is no Santa, than that there is no God. Bizarre.
That’s like my mother getting mad at my sister for telling me that there wasn’t a Santa. As someone noted, the truth will come out eventually–why get pissed off because your seven year olds (seven? Seriously? I think that’s a bit too old to be “believing” in some foolish, stalkery twit who enslaves elves) finds out that there’s not damned Santa.
come on, give them (the parents) a break.
Santa is widely known to just be a feel-good myth that most or all kids learn, and will find out from their parents when they are old enough. No harm done.
It’s NOT like religion, that parents actually believe as truth and continue to instill in their children for their whole life
I like to think of santa clause and tooth fairies and such as “gateway” delusions. Eventually they help support the biggest delusion of all-God. That is why parents get so pissed when someone breaks it to the poor brain-washed, indoctrinated, kids that there is not santa.
“Santa is widely known to just be a feel-good myth that most or all kids learn”
[God] is widely known (among skeptics) to just be a feel-good myth that most or all kids learn [from their parents].
Sadly, when the parents believe it as well, the myth is perpetuated indefinitely.
This story cracks me up. It makes me think of Arnold Schwarzenegger in Kindergarten Cop scaring all the kids and making them cry.
You can have your Jesus, your Allah, your Vishnu, Ra, Buddha, Odin, and Zeus but in the end we know deep down they are no more real than Captain Kirk. That’s right. None of those gods exist outside stories. Neither do truth, justice, fairness, mercy, duty, a chili place that can do a proper bowl of chili, or any sort of human rights. Hurricanes don’t recognize the right to life. Tornadoes don’t recognize any fairness in who they strike. It’s the belief in these things that’s important. We create the illusion of these ideals because we need them to Be. It’s important that we believe in them so that we’ll struggle to keep them safe.
Santa is “My First Belief System”. You know, for kids. It’s the first imaginary thing they believe in. It’s practice so that someday they’ll be able to believe in truth, justice, and the basic rights of all mankind.
Santa is the model for what we want our kids to become. Happy, generous, well fed, and with super powers.
We should all get our ideal body image from Santa instead of Barbie.
He threatens to withhold gifts from bad boys and girls, but he also shows nearly total forgiveness for their sins because he almost always comes through with the gifts in the end.
And since it’s still acceptable not to believe in him nobody has yet killed in his name. How many other deities can claim the same?
I know Santa isn’t real, but I’m going to believe in him anyway.
I had a similar experience, oh, less than a month ago. Jesus was my Santa, and logic and reason were the substitute teacher. My parents were the church, and they were pissed.
If I want my kids to be generous, loving, and kind, I’m not going to feed them with delusions of some dumb dude and elf-slaves to do it. The harm comes in feeding children delusional myths that they’re told they should believe.
My parents lied to me so much about myths and religion that I just stopped believing them. I did not want that to happen with my children so I never lie to them. I don’t go out of my way to pop their imaginary bubbles, but if they ask me whether Santa is real, I ask them what they think and if they ask me again I say it’s up to them to figure it out. (Just because I never lie to them doesn’t mean I am always obliged to tell them everything they want to know from me–I do sometimes refuse to answer the question.)
They have turned into critical thinkers. One of them discovered the truth behind the tooth fairy when he didn’t tell us his tooth came out and in the morning there was no coin. They still love imaginary play, sometimes all the more for the mystery of it. And most importantly, they know I never lie to them. Of course I can be wrong, but I never lie, and so they really do trust me.
Teacher screwed up.
Considering the age of the students, the Teacher should have referred any questions about Santa back to their parents.
We all know how hard people cling to their farie tales.
My daughter is 9 now, and I’ve always gone by the “not lying” rule. I’ve never filled her head with thoughts of Santa. I’ve only become a full blown anti-religion person in the last year, but I’ve always held fast to it being her choice if she wants to follow any path.
She also is a critical thinker and has learned to make her own decisions. She as chosen a path whereby if other believe she doesn’t make them feel bad about it. For the longest time she knew it made her grandparents smile to think that she believed in Santa, so she continued with it (she also knew it would get her more presents…little stinker…)
So why is it that the parents are in an uproar about a character that is so blatantly fictional instead of the fact that they have to pimp out Gertrude Hawk chocolates so their kids can have supplies?
I still don’t quite understand the things that will get a person riled up.
Unless you’re poor, of course. Santa always favours the rich kids, like any good Calvinist.
To me, Santa and the Tooth Fairy were a shared joke between me and my parents; every year they’d ask if I still believed in Santa, and I’d say “Yes, I still believe in Santa, so I still have to get Santa presents!” with a big grin on my face. I can’t remember any time at which I actually believed it was true.
Ibid: I’m going to start my yearly reading of Hogfather in a couple of weeks. Great book (which goes without saying, considering the author).
Yall are crazy. Talkin like Santa aint real and all. ;-)
My 10-yo daughter says: if Christians can believe in God, I can believe in Santa!
@Dan: That’s hilarious!
I also decided a few years ago that when I have kids, I won’t lie to them about Santa. I don’t at all understand parents who do.
I think maybe part of the reason why parents are angry about others telling their kids that Santa isn’t real is because they aren’t ready for their kids to grow up? Maybe they are afraid of their children becoming critical thinkers.
I don’t think it was the business of the substitute teacher to tell a bunch of second graders that there is no Santa Claus. That should be between the kids and their parents and there are more tactful ways of handling it if a kid asks you.
Plus, once a kid learns that there’s no Santa, they soon will start to wonder what else isn’t true. Easter Bunny? Tooth Fairy? Baby Jesus?
The results of what can happen is summed up eloquently by the great scholar Jack Chick in his literary masterpiece entitled, “Fairy Tales”:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1033/1033_01.asp
as a skeptic and atheist I don’t have a problem with Santa. JoeL is right and it’s harmless. The teacher should have left well-enough alone. In fact, I find it kind of a jerk thing to do. Kids will find out soon enough that there are no unicorns, elves, or the like. Raising kids to be critical thinkers is one thing, , but why not let their imaginations be unfettered and joyful for a short time before reality hits.
Keri: You said “Maybe they are afraid of their children becoming critical thinkers”. Here’s some food for thought. I grew up on the Santa myth and it was actually my first exposure to critical thought. At age 7, I began to try to find evidence of Santa in my own childish way (first attempt: writing a note for Santa to sign attesting as to his existence; signed by my dad). I gave up on Santa a couple of years later.
Would teaching your children to believe in Santa count as letting them have unfettered imaginations? It seems to be the opposite to me.
Why are we, in 2008, still lying to our children and trying to force them to believe in Santa? Is it “more fun” for the kids to believe that some magical omnipotent fat man from the arctic north brought them gifts? Why don’t we lie to children about the Easter Bunny, Cupid, Leprechauns, and Witches, just to keep it “fun” for them. They’ll find out the truth sooner or later right? This works out for both parents and kids -
Lazy parents who uphold the lie of Santa can purchase piles of meaningless gifts, and the kids won’t criticize them for the quality of the gifts because they’re from Santa.
And the kids can learn that gifts are what Xmas is all about, and once they get into this habit and they’re older they can be happy consumers every other Xmas season. It’s all about the gifts.
In my opinion, you should teach your kids a lesson about gratitude and giving this year, and let them appreciate the fact that you may have gone out and spent a boat-load of cash on them, instead of “CLEAN YOUR ROOM OR SANTA WON’T BRING YOU GIFTS!!!”
I think that Santa actually serves an excellent purpose in breaking down a child’s tendency to be superstitious. He’s a benign cultural construct that usefully teaches kids to distrust the myths and stories their elders feed to them. What kid with an age in the double figures really believes in Santa? How do they find out he isn’t real? Normally through deduction and peer group questioning. (Hey wait…Santa’s Tim Allen AND Whoopi Goldberg? Santa keeps turning up in thousands of malls all at the same time? Santa’s also Sinta Claas, Saint Nicholas, Father Christmas etc. etc.? There’s millions of kids in the world–how can he know them all and visit them all at once? and so on) The inconsistencies around Santa are visible and evident–especially in the Sthn Hemisphere where Christmas is the height of summer. My 12 year old worked out Santa was fake about three years ago. My 8 year old is just starting to ask those questions. My 6 year old thinks it’s all wonderful, but her illusions will inevitably dissolve as she ages. And when my oldest came to ask–we told him Santa isn’t real but the pretending is part of the Christmas fun, and it is part of our cultural tradition, like singing carols about the Christmas ‘story’ (I can be an atheist and still be moved by the Vienna Boys’ choir singing Stille Nacht–since dropping god I’ve found my appreciation for beauty of all sorts increasing). And we also told him Santa is a way to secretly give someone you love a treat without their being all the ‘family’ connotations attached (which is why he won’t be telling his younger siblings). And in a later discussion, when asked about god, I was able to tell my oldest that I don’t believe god and the bible are any more real than the Santa stories–but that’s my opinion and it is up to him to finally determine that one for himself, just like he did with Santa, and so I encourage him to ask questions and get the facts.
Aor: Interesting point, but parents know that Santa doesn’t exist, nobody believes in Santa as some do in Christ or Allah. When they ‘teach’ their kids about Santa, they’re just having fun, like they’re helping their kids become part of a storybook. When you read a child ‘Wind in the Willows’ you’re not teaching them to believe in car-driving toads. It’s all in fun.
Santa IS a sort of god surrogate (be good, or you won’t get a reward), but I don’t believe it is a “gateway belief” or something. I don’t personally know a single adult who believes in Santa (or the easter bunny or the tooth fairy) or who found believing in a God so appealing because of those beliefs. Allowing kids to believe in the Santa myth is harmless. I believed in Santa AND God when young and both beliefs were gone by the end of grade school.
I just realized that JimB, an actual parent, made most of my points. Sorry to be redundant, I’ll read all the posts next time ;)
No problem arkonbey–always nice to know someones shares similar opinions. The agonising some people do over Christmas amazes me. Way too serious. Personally I’m sometimes sorry I don’t live in one of those cultures where they have regular festivals–religious or not–where communities can unite and celebrate. We’re short enough on holidays as it is. The Netherlands is a largely secular country–but celebrating Christmas there was one of my best experiences ever. I believe it’s entirely possible to lose the superstition without gutting the culture at the same time. I’m happy to take my kids to sing carols by candlelight–it’s magical. I’ll tell them that this is what their ancestors used to believe. It may not be what we believe now–but it’s a connection with my past that I’d be loathe to lose. It’s like trying to read Shakespeare without knowing the bible–a whole dimension goes missing.
Further to what I just said above–the flip side is that if I prohibit my kids finding out about religion, and don’t discuss it myself, then when teenagehood kicks in they might just go and try it out to differentiate themselves from us. As a teenager in a teetotal household I went drinking heavily just to assert my independence. I don’t think I would have if I’d learned about the dangers of alcohol and the value of moderation. You don’t create rational people by prohibiting their minds from accessing certain experiences, anymore than you do by locking a child’s minds in a prison of religious superstition and irrational beliefs.
JimB: Your follow-up comments made me smile and nod respectively.
Have yourselves a merry little christmas!
Jeez, I was just recently introduced to this site and have been interested in several of the posts I’ve seen recently, but you’ve lost me on this one.
It is not a teacher’s job to “correct” ANY of the “faiths” or “beliefs” that parents tell their kids, unless they’re dangerous (“only Jesus can heal – refuse the blood transfusion”).
Come on, it’s one thing to be an athiest (and I am), but it’s another to insert yourself into the belief systems of CHILDREN who are not your own.
Santa will exist until my son is old enough to question it, just as he did for me. And the questioning and investigation I did, which led me to uncover the truth, was THE FOUNDATION for my investigation and questioning of my mother’s Catholic faith, which I also determined was “unreal”.
Think of it this way – getting kids used to the idea of something being real, then figuring out it isn’t, is the foundation for skeptics!
@artgyrl: Well nobody can agree on everything! :)
So if you were a high school teacher, and a student sincerely said that they had faith the earth was 6,000 years old, you wouldn’t try to teach them to think skeptically about that? Because you’d be correcting their faith/beliefs that their parents teach them.
To me, there’s no difference between that and teaching a child to be skeptical of Santa or FSM or faith healing or creationism or witchcraft or pseudoscience.
Daniel: A high-schooler believing in a young Earth is vastly different than a second-grader believing in Santa Claus. Most kids grow out of Santa before middle school and I’ve yet to meet an adult who truly believed in Santa. The same cannot be said for religious indoctrination.
If there is no difference between religious indoctrination and the belief in Santa, should we also prohibit our children from reading any kind of fantastic fiction because of the bible?
@arkonbey: I don’t think our children should be prohibited from reading anything just because we don’t believe it. I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m advocating censorship of beliefs — I’m not.
My point is that I don’t see the problem with teaching kids science and skepticism, even if it conflicts with the children’s beliefs they are taught at home.
So you can ask second graders, “Why do you believe in Santa? What evidence has led you in that direction?” And you can ask high schools, “Why do you believe in a young earth instead of an old earth? What evidence supports your view? Why do virtually all scientists disagree with you? How do you deal with the plethora of evidence against your position?” Etc.
I recall reading a summary of a study recently that linked early indoctrination into belief in the supernatural to later belief in gods. That would imply that teaching your kids to believe in Santa would increase the chances that one day they would fall for any given pack of religious lies. Those early belief systems like Santa, the easter bunny, monsters in the closet… if people allow them to continue they reduce the odds of their children growing up to be rational and skeptical.
I take your point, Daniel. but I think the Santa/God analogy is a diversion that cheapens the ultimate point of this blog. I chuckled at the similarities between Santa and God–but the differences are more fundamental. No one launched pogroms in Santa’s name, withheld medical treatments because of Santa superstition, demonised people on the basis of their sexuality being different to Santa’s, blew up people who didn’t believe in Santa etc. etc. Kids aren’t stupid–most quickly get the fact that Santa is a bit of fun make-believe. But start getting all solemn and demonizing him, or shattering a few 6-year-old illusions, and are you any better than the Sunday school teacher frightening little kids with tales of punishment for their sins? Atheists should be FUN people–we have one life and this is it, it will be over far too quickly and we should find our pleasure in happiness and laughter. I’ve wasted thirty years of my life on sanctimonious religious boredom–I’m not going to destroy my little girl’s innocent excitement about Santa, I’m going to enjoy every second of it. The world will knock Santa on the head for her all too quickly and when she asks me questions I’ll answer them as I did (above) with my eldest. You Americans need to get over this Christmas fixation before fighting about it becomes a new religion. Learn to laugh and enjoy a bit of childhood wonder–there’s precious little enough of that these days..
Aor–with all due respect, that’s bollocks. Santa and the tooth fairy aren’t supernatural belief systems–they’re stories conceived in culture. They don’t deserve to be placed on the same scale as seances, mediums, ghost whisperers, psychics and religion. As I’ve argued above, Santa is the perfect vehicle for demonstrating to a child that superstitions aren’t real. His non-existence is easy to prove, and most children have a small disappointment, accept it, and wonder what else isn’t real. Santa is a diversion from the real point here, which is damaging superstition that otherwise-rational people cling to without evidence, and which negatively impacts on the lives of countless others. Santa doesn’t require female circumcision, he doesn’t lock women away, he doesn’t train children to hate. What kid hasn’t known he or she has been naughty enough not to have santa turn up–yet he does anyway. Everything about Santa makes a half-way intelligent kid ask questions. Your blog is great Daniel–but you’re wandering off down a silly dead-end with this. Get back to the real message–the millions of intelligent able people wasting their entire lives on some imaginary god.
@JimB:
Glad to chuckled at it — that’s all it’s good for, really. It’s very superficial and intentionally so. If I wanted it to be profound, I would have made it into an essay.
Actually, yes, it would be better than a SS teacher — because the SS spouts lies, and the mythbuster would be telling the truth. I’m not saying we should go around and ruin kid’s lives, but I’m not going to go out of my way to lie to children, either.
I hope I’ve made it pretty clear I also enjoy humor and having fun. I post a number of things each week that I find funny.
It seems to me you should enjoy a bit of childhood wonder yourself instead of scolding us Americans. I love life and love to laugh, but am not fond of people scolding me.
However, I did find your original comment interesting and it may be true teaching children about Santa than breaking it down would teach them to be less superstitious. I don’t know.
But I don’t think I’ll lie/pretend with my children about it. I’m not going to do with God and Jesus, either. Temporary pretending is fine (like reading fantasy books, etc), but I don’t want to encourage delusion.
Hmm. A silly dead end that has got me 45,000 visits in the last two days. I don’t plan to harp on x-mas very much, you know. It just happens to be x-mas time and it’s on most people’s minds. So it makes this stuff more interesting than, say, in the middle of April. If talking about Santa/x-mas bothers you, I hope you’ll just ignore these types of posts — but don’t worry, there won’t be too many more.
My apologies Daniel, I came across sounding arrogant there. Forgive the ‘you American’s’ dig. Totally unwarranted. I can see this is a hot button issue in America, reflecting your very different cultural mix. And if people are visiting your blog because of it then great. Not for me though. As you’ll have gathered, for me Santa’s a non-issue distracting from the important stuff–but a good hook anyway.
The reason I was drawn to your blog is because my experience almost exactly parallels yours–years spent (wasted) in Christianity, often in a leadership role, trying to justify the increasingly absurd. I regret and resent the years wasted reading that awful pastiche of lies and hatred, the Bible, and the years spent contorting reason and intellect to justify the unjustifiable. My life took off when I accepted god was imaginary and religion a shackle on my mind. The incalculable loss of human potential as good, clever people waste their lives on their silly ‘faiths’ frustrates me.
So again, apologies for being supercilious, my first post on this topic best reflects my opinion.
@JimB:
No problem, it sounds like we’ve had similar experiences, and I can promise I’ll keep talking about things of that nature as well. :)
Thanks for reading!
Actually Jim B, that is a real study. If you do not accept the validity of scientific studies then I would see your point, but I assume that you do.
Santa’s powers are supernatural. The ability to read minds (know if you are bad or good) = supernatural. The ability to travel to every home of every follower on a single night and slide down their chimney = supernatural. As for the difference between the supernatural and stories conceived in culture.. I see no difference. All religions, all supernatural belief systems, are stories conceived in culture.
While you may believe that presenting them with false information and waiting a few years for them to understand they have been lied to will help them detect such lies in the future, the evidence says otherwise. If you don’t want your kids to grow up believing the unbelievable, then telling them to believe the unbelievabe and waiting for them to realize they were lied to is a poor method.
I agree, teachers are supposed to tell the truth. But the teacher needs to teach kids that whether or not she personally believes in something doesn’t necessarily make it true or untrue.
The truth is that she’s never seen santa claus and she doesn’t believe that santa claus exists and that’s what she should have told the kids.
Kids need questions, not answers.
I thought the whole point of teaching was to provide answers.
I think the funniest thing about the Santa Claus myth is the perpetuation of it by grown adults. Think about all the Christmas movies you’ve ever seen about adults who don’t believe in Santa Claus, but then are rewarded somehow in the end when they start to believe. No other delusion, not even belief in God, is seen as being so virtuous in the eyes of popular culture.