Here’s great quote from one of our faithful commenters, Ty:
I am an atheist. I don’t oppose god, not any more than I oppose unicorns. I do, however, oppose the very real pressure religion exerts on the society I live in; an influence I find unhealthy and damaging.
I thought that was very well put. Theists often think we are opposing God — but we’re not. We’re opposing the pressure of religion.
Well put indeed!! How can one be opposed to a fiction? The issue that i have is the judgmental attitude displayed by those who feel they are superior and the attempt to impose upon my life a set of beliefs that do not mesh with my own.
-S-
We’ve recently had a discussion over at the Apostate’s Chapel about Richard Dawkins disapproval of the Harry Potter books. In the interview at the Telegraph he does indeed sound opposed to god, and in fact calls it “child abuse” to bring children up believing in heaven, hell and so on. Since he is a rather high-profile atheist, I can see where believers get the idea atheists are anti-god.
Harry Potter fails to cast spell over Professor Richard Dawkins
I love the Harry Potter series. I think Dawkins is just being a grump.
I do not enjoy Harry Potter, and I also think Dawkins is being a grump. I love the Lord of the Rings series, and most of Tolkien’s middle earth fiction. Middle Earth has a very elaborate creation story detailed in the Silmarillion.
I do not think it is child abuse to give these books to your children because they have gods. They also have elves and hobbits, two other fictional things I don’t believe in.
PS
This blog entry is very flattering.
I love Harry Potter.
But Ty is right. Perhaps the only thing we’re in opposition to is lack of actual thinking theories through.
A good point well made. It frustrates me when I hear theists saying “For someone who doesn’t believe in God, you sure are angry at him!”.
How can I oppose something I give no meaning or existence to?
I simply oppose the idea of god(s) as being more than fiction.
I don’t even oppose that, Matt, as long as it is done in the privacy of a person’s home. I know people who speak Sindarin and think of themselves as reincarnated elves from Middle Earth. While I think it’s sad to live that way, I don’t actively oppose it.
I only oppose people with those fictional beliefs trying to enforce them on me.
If the sindarin speakers start successfully passing laws granting sindarin speakers special status, you can bet I will be active in the anti-sindarin movement.
It frustrates me when I hear theists saying “For someone who doesn’t believe in God, you sure are angry at him!”.
One can certainly develop real feelings (positive or negative) about a fictional character — I like Harry, Ron, Hermione, Dumbledore, etc; I loathe Voldemort, Malfoy pere et fils, and have an amused contempt for the Dursleys. In fact, good artistic depictions should evoke such reactions.
In the case of the fundamentalist God, who is being continually shoved in our faces as the source of all that is good and decent, it is well worth pointing out that the OT YHWH is a considerable jerk — and even that is just a prelude to the NT fellow who, notwithstanding the warm fuzzies in the Beatitudes, is a sociopath who intends to torture large numbers of people for eternity, for not giving proper flattery to his Cosmic Ego.
Does that sound anti-God? You betcha! As Dawkins puts it: he’s the most unpleasant character in all of fiction.
(Note that above I’ve specifically ignored those who suffered toxic childhoods due to their parents’ religious affiliations — lots of those poor folks have personal issues in addition to the more general philosophical ones).
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In Dawkins’ defense, the reporting on the whole Harry Potter thing was grossly exaggerated. He roughly said that he was interested in doing research into whether magical stories were harmful and maybe writing a book about it and it got reported as “Radical atheist preacher rails against Harry Potter, fairy tales”.
My feelings are fairly in the middle of this.
I am against the idea of God since God was created by humans.
I am also opposed to religions espousing that their brand of God or gods is the ticket to life and an afterlife. These people’s beliefs are archaic at best.
A bit of a ditto here: I’m an atheist and an antitheist (like Hitchens). Just because I believe that Gods are fictions does not mean I cannot oppose them as immoral fantasies.
I have no time for Harry Potter or god.
@Daniel & Ty
“Theists often think we are opposing God — but we’re not.”
I’m not sure i agree with that. Theists are not worried about an Atheist opposing god. They believe we will get our punishment for that. They are supremely worried about the threat of us opposing their dearly held personal beliefs.
This topic has really got me thinking about definitions as:
Ty starting your sentence with
“I am an atheist…….. I don’t oppose god, not any more than I oppose unicorns. I do, however, oppose the very real pressure religion exerts on the society I live in; an influence I find unhealthy and damaging.”
This gives the impression that you are defining atheism in the terms of opposing religious pressure, and to me is misleading. The term Atheist should not exist as everybody is A-An-Infinite-Number-Of-Things, and it’s clearly nonsense to identify something in the negative. I have always call myself an Anti-Theist (another term used quite a lot.) but have just decided to look up the definition to see if that is correct:
An antitheist is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as “One opposed to belief in the existence of a God.”
In light of this I will not use this term any more as I have no real problem with a individuals private belief in anything. That is not a freedom you can take away. Its all about the danger as soon as it becomes “Organised Religion”, which, when you take all the positives away, encourages hate, delusion, anti rationalism and murder. Organised Religion is control, which and is and always will be MASSIVELY OPEN TO ABUSE.
The term I have just found most accurate is an Anti religionist – Opposition to religion itself. I wonder if most of the people post here who call themselves Atheist are in fact Anti Relionists. Being defined as an Anti Religionist should be a less personally offensive term to a believer, as is moves away from criticising
“What they personally believe” Which, convincing someone their beliefs are unjustified, is usually horribly offensive territory.
to
“Pointing out the dangers of an obviously corruptible controlling system” which most religious people can even see in other religions then their own, and is less personal.
It is a separate topic (Maybe if deemed worthy can be made a new one), but I would be very interested on peoples views on this:
The term do non-believes currently define themselves by?
What is the correct & best definition for non-believers?
What do believers think, about meeting someone calling themselves and Anti Religionist rather then an Atheist?
Shame……….poor atheists being preasured by Christians :)
If you are going to express your beliefs/non-beliefs be prepared to debate and defend, especially on a forum like this.
I’m a Christian, my belief is to spread the good news of Jesus, If you don’t want listen walk away I’m not holding a gun to your head.
“Shame……….poor atheists being preasured by Christians :)”
I see two possibilities for this typo.
The most likely reading is “poor atheists being *pressured* by Christians.”
However, it could just as easily have been “poor atheists being *pleasured* by Christians.” Which … no, I’ll let you make your own jokes here.
This textual criticism stuff is just loaded with pitfalls.
“If you are going to express your beliefs/non-beliefs be prepared to debate and defend, especially on a forum like this.”
Have you not read any of the other threads?
@Divan, I have no idea what you’re talking about. We love debating. We’re opposed to the political pressures of religion — most of us would die to defend freedom of speech and religion.
@Divan-
My friend…not so harshly…passion is good…but Christlikeness…even better.
Remember…you are (un-invited & mostly un-welcomed) and merely a guest of dissenting views in an “atheist” forum. You cant expect anything less than strong opposition, even contempt at times.
Must first take the “plank” out of our own eyes…so we can see before you will ever be helpful to anyone who…wants to see themselves.
Peace…bro…
John
Please feel free to explain this to your coreligionists. We keep trying to get them to debate, and to defend their opinions and beliefs, but they either say “nuh uh! I’m right!” or they give us pages and pages of incomprehensible blather.
But if you are looking for a debate, you’ve come to the right place. I’m sure there are many, many atheists / antitheists / agnostics who would jump at the chance of talking to someone whose prepared to have a rational discussion.
Sorry. I meant “who’s” in that last sentence.
John C
I don’t think that you should use your own experience here as an example of how theists are treated, John. I’m sure even you realize that a lot of the arguments and negative dissent with you are merely problems in communications. You type fast and have a lot to say. This opens you up to several people talking to you at the same time. This shouldn’t be confused with an attack.
Any negative comments toward you are due to your method of discussion, not what you believe.
@divan
You said be prepared to debate. We seem quite prepared. Now where is your debate? We’re listening.. is anyone walking away yet? Are you still here?
Maybe those three questions are really just one.
Typical hit-and-run from a theist.
divan (an ironic name, since divan means sofa; does she want us to sit on her? Fart on her?) doesn’t get the difference between debating opinions and using the law and society to propagate only one belief system, and damn everyone else’s–but all the while claiming that this powerful majority is being persecuted. It beggars belief! She doesn’t understand it is this that has atheists speaking up and out.
You want a fight, divan, bring it on. But this is one place where you can’t tilt the playing field in your favor, as you theists like to do. It’s level ground.
Now come out and play.
@Aquaria
I’m South African, I’m male and I love Jesus, I’m in a completely different timezone, I’m not runing away, I might be sleeping though…
@Daniel
most of us would die to defend freedom of speech and religion.
Daniel my friend, I find it hard to believe that you would die for religion, yet atheists don’t believe in anything other than there is nothing to believe in.
Or maybe my Definition of aheist is outdated because I thought it means: A person who doesn’t believe in God or the Devil, Heaven or Hell and any other things being worshipped as gods, a person who believes their existince on earth is a fluke.
Daniel, in my view if you tell a Christian “I don’t want to hear about Jesus” they will leave you alone, but you are all talking about presure, must be stressfull being an Atheist, especially on a forum like this where Atheists pat each other on the back for thinking up new reasons for being atheists.
This is what Jesus says: “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”(Mat 11:28)
Daniel I think I know how you feel when you post comments on Ray Comforts site :)
@VorJack
I see two possibilities for this typo.
Here is a 3rd: English is my 2nd language, and my spelling lets me down sometimis ooops…
I read the threads, and all I saw was atheists feeling pressure for their non-belief,
Stop the pressure, start believing, easy as that.
@Divan
You could have stopped after “gods.” But otherwise that doesn’t seem like a bad definition.
Ooh–SNAP! Your snark, it is as incisive as your arguments for faith.
And my instinct is to be indescribably rude to you, by suggesting you go Cheney yourself. But maybe you don’t have a good grasp of the backgrounds or the people here, and the circumstances they live in.
Most of us reasoned our ways free of faith after long, dark, lonely soul-searching. Many of us gave up physical, intellectual, and emotional support against the threats of the everyday world and exchanged them for loneliness and self-doubt. A painful internal reality, but one we chose rather than the unthinking warm cotton-wool glow of “the One True Faith”.
Then you turn up and mock that journey. Thanks a heap, buddy. What kind of reception do you expect now?
Perhaps things are different in South Africa. In the US, a religion is pretty much necessary to getting elected. And here’s an astounding thing–your odds will automatically be better if you’re attending the First Christian Establishment rather than sacrificing to Allah, or Ishtar, or Baal.
People hold prayer meetings in boardrooms without regard for the faith of the participants, and Christian faith is used as an excuse to make stupid decisions in education and science administration at the national level.
Here in Canada, a small-mouthed variant of the Concerned Christian has manged to poison our government as well by hijacking one of our two major political parties.
Would you not agree that that adds up to a certain amount of pressure?
On top of that we’re then faced with people like you who, without shred one of evidence, unsolicited, and often at the most inappropriate moments, tell us to throw out our brains and drink in Jesus’ love.
Except in your case it’s more like ordering us to surrender our intellect to unthinking Christianity.
Tell you what–If you’re going to take that approach–why should I pick your pet faith over, say, Islam, or Buddhism, or the worship of Isis? Tell me that, would you?
@Divan: I was being quite serious. I believe in the freedom of speech and religion. I think people should have the right to say, think, believe, and preach anything as long as it does not hurt others or their property.
I think this is very important, and although I would not WANT to die for that belief, in the right circumstances I would be willing.
Divan
There is nothing about believing in the unbelievable that sounds easy to me.
How about this, Divan?
Stop the pressure, stop believing, easy as that.
McBlog-
Just from a distance, I sense an increasing degree of “snarky” ness as Metro calls it spouting from your snowman’s corn-cob pipe (btw..where is your pipe dude?) lol.
We need to start a “Snarky” award within the forum.
You get my vote…now lets see you walk down the “read” carpet…lol
JC
@Divan
Stop what pressure?
Start believing? I want you to acknowledge belief in the goddess. Start believing that.
What’s that you say? You can’t just decide to start believing in something that you’re sure doesn’t exist?
Huh. Imagine that.
If the only pressure were being preached at, there would be no problem. I am quite capable of saying, “Please take your mythology lecture elsewhere.”
Political pressure is the problem When religion exerts pressure on the political process then I oppose it.
If it doesn’t do that, I don’t care about it at all.
Oh, and Divan?
“Stop the pressure, start believing, easy as that.”
Would be the equivalent of shooting myself in the head to stop a toothache. Becoming a moron so that the other morons leave me alone it not an acceptable solution.
@Restless D:
I decided recently that I like “skeptic.” Simple, to-the-point, and it describes my rationale for not believing in God or gods as well as a lot of other things. It also doesn’t have much stigma attached to it; in fact, it has a kind of hard-nosed, pragmatic quality to it. That said, when I actually end up talking about religion, the word “atheist” pretty much always gets brought up regardless of whether I’d like to describe myself as such and I’m not petty enough to labor the point.
@Divan:
No, it just means a person who doesn’t believe in gods, though usually that would include all the supernatural. Regarding whether my existence is a fluke, there’s really no evidence either way so I’m not about to make an assumption either way. I can think up vaguely plausible scenarios in which there is no God but in which mankind is not a fluke, but I also acknowledge that there are many possible explanations for our existence that I simply haven’t considered yet. But I don’t deny the possibility that our existence is a fluke.
I think the attitude that either God made us or we are a fluke and that there are no other possibilities shows only a lack of imagination on your part and doesn’t actually hold any water as an argument for God.
Though actually, I have some pretty good reasons to believe that I am the product of an unplanned pregnancy, so maybe I should just go ahead and admit to being a fluke.
And regarding your central thesis that we’re a bunch of whiny crybabies, try walking around the American south with a name tag that says “Atheist” on it. See what kind of reception you get.
Hehe… It’s not increasing, it’s always been there.
If I am “snarky”, it’s only because I’m trying to be as silly as I view another’s point to be to make a point. I will accept the award graciously if awarded, though. :)
McBlog-
I’ll check w/Daniel on the awards budget these days and get back with you…it may be a little cheap but what would you expect for the first annual “Snarky” anyway…an Oscar? lol
Now you’re wearing off on me…
Sail on..
JC
Again I read all the threads and after my last post I was expecting some harsh comments maybe even some heavy abuse, but all I got was some tongue in cheeck comments but nothing bad.
That made me think: If I get cut I bleed, and my blood is red and, if any of you get cut your blood is also red (exept for McBlog snarky people bleed blue) :)
Anyway my point is
I’m also just a person, and I believe that I have found the answer in Jesus Christ, the answer to any question I could ever ask, now I ask you have you ever tried Him? Maybe you were in the area once maybe you just drove by or maybe you just avoid it at all cost.
Maybe you have made up your mind and nothing will change it.
But let me tell you, Jesus is as real as you and me, believe me, don’t believe me, mock me or abuse me, tell me whatever, but I know He is real and I pray that you will too.
Jesus Said:”I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, no one comes to the father except through Me.” (John 14:6)
If you believe with your heart and confess with mouth that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved.
Thank you Daniel for an open and honest forum.
Hope you guys find the truth.
I BELIEVE I have. :)
John C:
McBlog’s avatar isn’t a snowman. It’s the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
Did you never watch Ghostbusters? Too idolatrous for you?
Where is VorJack? He had the best response I’ve seen that I’d like to cut and paste here for Divan (not that he seems to be paying any attention to anything we’ve actually said).
VorJack, the one I’m thinking of is on the “Scientists Discover God is Real!” thread. We need to just have that as a handy file to pop up whenever we get one of these evangelizing trolls here, and just keep feeding it to them like a broken record everytime they start with the “Just BELIEEEEEEEEVE!” stuff.
Many of the atheists here spent decades as fundamentalist Real True Christians, who believed far more passionately than you do. One notable example from this set is our gracious host.
Me, I was brought up without any religious affiliation, though I did insist on going to Sunday School as a kid. I went to church a few times, studied a variety of faiths from Odinism to Buddhism, from Bahá’í to Santiera. I did everything people told me I should in order to find whatever god they believed in. And it seems that none of these gods want me to worship them. It also seems that there’s no good reason to choose any one over all the others, so I just make the neutral assumption that it’s not worth the time I’d spend worrying about it.
Of course, if someone can give me a good reason to change my mind, I’ll be at their place of worship before you could say “So mote it be”.
Winter-
The “place” to worship is not a “place” at all my friend. Its in the secret “place” of your heart, your inner-man. He who would worship God must worship in spirit & in truth…for God is spirit.
The indwelling of Him…in us is the secret, Christ IN you, the mystery of the ages. You keep looking without but the way in is…inwardly.
Fundamentalism is typically very legalistic, heavy, burdensome…not at all what He came to bring.
In the end it is not religion (endless rule-keeping devoid of love) that we are after anyway. That can never satisfy.
But Him in you…as you…Him living His (zoe) life through you…now that’s the “high life”.
JC
Winter-
Are you serious ’bout McBlog not being a sailor snowman? Mayber I was just caught up in the winter, holiday spirit…no pun intended. What a revelation!
Now I have one for you as well…Jesus didnt come to bring that dreaded thing you “think” of when you think of religion…He cam to bring life…to you.
(darn, now I cant call McBlog my scowling sailor snowman anymore…next you’re gonna tell me that Santa’s not for real or somethin’ huh) lol
JC
Who is this Zoe? Do you have her phone number?
John C:
http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/stay-puft-marshmallow-man.jpg
Apparently, he was modelled on the Michelin Man.
Thanks Winter….
A sailor? Come now.
Surely you recognized me as the incarnation of a Sumerian god whose form was chosen by the mind of a lowly human named Ray.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stay_Puft_Marshmallow_Man
McBlog-
Sorry dude…but I guess that makes us even since you guys have mistaken me all along for being…religious! lol
Divan, what you are doing right now is a standard tactic by theists. They come in and claim anyone who is a former believer cannot have truly been a believer otherwise they would still be a believer. You are sadly mistaken and outright wrong on this. By that reasoning, there are no ex-anythings. None. Ever. No ex muslims, no ex christians, no ex mormons. See how silly that is? Now that you see how silly, stop believing it, stop repeating it. This is called learning from mistakes. Often those who come here to preach do extreme things to not accept when a point has been made. They decline the chance to reply, they change the topic, they outright lie. I challenge you on this, Divan.
I want you to give me an answer on this: have I proved to you that you are wrong on this issue? Remember, if your reasoning is sound, there are no ex-anythings. Think it through, take your time, and when you come to an answer give us it as a yes or no.
I’m sorry to have to play hardball so early in a conversation, but I’ve seen the methods you are using before. Perhaps someone taught you something that is false. If you come to this conversation openly and honestly we can quickly teach you just how falsely you were taught, and that may be useful to you in the future.
@Aor
Yes there isn’t ex anythings, but if you don’t believe, practice or live the way Jesus CHRIST told you to, can you still call yourself a CHRISTian? or even an ex-Christian rather than a non-believer?
My belief in Jesus is of such a nature, I believe in Him, I believe that I would have been dead if it wasn’t for His saving love, I believe I only really started living when I started living for Him. Yet, sometimes I stumble, and sometimes I think “God are you really there for me?” And every single time He lifts up my head and says “My child I will never leave you or forsake you.”
To answer your question, everyone sometimes feels down and doesn’t know what to think or whereto from here, but I believe if you really know Jesus the only reason you would turn your back on Him is because you yourself want to be incharge, and haven’t accepted His saving grace.
I hope I answered your question.
“I’m sorry to have to play hardball so early in a conversation, but I’ve seen the methods you are using before. ”
I didn’t even know I was using a method, or that what I wrote had been written before.
I wrote what I wrote from the heart.
Aor answer this for me:
If a fish decides he wants to evolve, he leaves the water, he grows legs and starts breathing air, is he an ex-fish?
@John C
But Him in you…as you…Him living His (zoe) life through you…now that’s the “high life”.
Well said my man ;)
@Divan
No, you are simply wrong. There are ex-christians. Anyone who was, then is not, is an ex-christian. Words have definitions and by refusing to accept those definitions you are declaring yourself unwilling or unable to properly discuss a topic. You wish to change the meaning of a word in a way that is self serving. This is a dishonest approach. You should never need to use dishonest methods because they imply that your beliefs cannot be defended by the truth.
Anyone who was a Mormon and now is not, is called an ex-mormon. Someone who was a racecar driver and now is not is an ex-racecar driver. You know it, I know it, we all know it, and by pretending to not know it you make yourself appear both foolish and deceptive. You do not have the right to declare that there are no ex-anythings. If you want to claim that right then you had best justify it. Use reasoning, no appeals to magical powers. Remember, when you prove it you will also be proving that there are no ex-atheists. Are you starting to see the flaws in your position?
Read about logic, and about fallacies. You have fallen into several fallacies already. If your beliefs stand to reason, then you will be able to determine that quietly in your own home simply be reading about what reason is.
As for your question about the fish, it makes no sense. It also indicates a poor understanding of evolution. Ask yourself questions: why is your understanding of evolution poor? If it was truly a flawed theory, wouldn’t you be able to have a strong and thorough understanding of evolution and still be able to show flaws in it? Why is it that those who disbelieve evolution tend to know so little about it? Shouldn’t you be willing to learn about it, if it is easy to disprove?
@Divan
Presumably you have evidence and will be showing it to us? Because then you won’t need to pray. We’ll mostly convert immediately, assuming you produce proof of the existence of your particular deity.
I tend to believe Jesus was real. I even believe he had some radical good ideas (and a few maybe not-so-good). But so what? I feel the same about Ghandi, and we have him on film.
To revisit Lewis’ “Liar, Lunatic, or Lord” query. I say that everyone who has ever claimed to be the Son of God has been a liar or lunatic, often both–and in the modern era we have several of them on film, too. But since we don’t actually know if Jesus made this claim, he’s spared that particular label.
But let’s look at this claim:
In other words, “If you knew Jesus, like I know Jesus, Oh! Oh! Oh whatta guy!”
Actually, I’d love to return to that warm fuzzy feeling that God was in his heaven and all’s right with the world, the universe is unfolding as it should. I’d love to resign myself to the idea that all I have to do to be happy is live according to my personal interpretation of a 2,000-year-old book of poorly-translated Aramaic shepherds’ tales.
But anyone with an awareness higher than that of a concussed duckling would have to be delusional to believe that without evidence. And no evidence exists.
@Metro-
But then again…maybe its more like…
Upon the plane of the mystical, reason no longer possesses that strength and power, which it has within philosophy, for then it is upon a trans-rational plane. A man, caught up into the mystical plane, into a mystic contemplation, then “becomes bereft of the reliance upon reason”, he surmounts reason.
Does reason become altered or otherwise enlightened by revelation in what has been received upon the mystical plane?
I asked this yesterday and not one of the “highly learned” had any insightful relply’s…sans Dan L who at least attempted to.
And then…regarding your comment that the bible is nothing more than “poorly translated Aramaic sheppards tales” consider the possibility (at least consider) that in truth, the bible may be more accurately described below:
The bible is like this…Each man within himself has moses & the israelites, the sadducee’s and the pharisee’s, the patriarchs and the kingdom of heaven and hell. Thus, the events described in the bible, and looked upon by the pious as being things of a past history are actually descriptions of eternal processes taking place in the constitution of man.
Anyone?…..
JC
@ John C
I like the way you post the things you post :)
@ Aor
I had to read your post 3 times and I’m still not sure I understand, anyway.
You get Ex’s, x-wives, x-patriots and X MEN….
Lets not get technical, I believe it comes down to 1′s own interpretation, and I will give you that round, if you want to be an “EX” be an “EX”.
Evolution:
The process of developing.
Gradual development.
Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
So my great, great, great…….. Grandfather could have been a FISH?
I’m just joking Aor, plaese explain to me what I’m missing.
@John
I sense you feeling deflated… Buck up, camper. The fact that you have stuck around has impressed me, at least.
Your communicating here has gotten much better, but the fact that we had such a hard time getting through your comments when you first showed up has probably been making people glaze over them now, and miss your questions.
Your question about the “mystical plane” sounds similar to points you’ve attempted to make before… that if there is this plane, that perhaps reason doesn’t work the same there as it does in the “natural realm”. I understand what you are saying, and I accept this as a possibility. But the problem with that remains that we have no reason to believe that this plane even exists, or that there is anything beyong our material world.
I believe you have said that this plane exists within ourselves? If this is true, then basically what you are saying (and I think it’s been said before) is that in order to acheive a “higher” level of understanding of reality, we need to push reason aside, in which case you presume God will be there.
I’m afraid that while the language you use to describe what you are proposing may be new, the actual argument is not. You will never be able to convince us that this “higher plane” exists unless you show us evidence.
Pushing reason aside opens the door for much more than just God and love.
Perhaps, you say, that I should only look for those two things. Then that, John, is wishful thinking, and no different than seeing what one wants to see.
Are you proposing that every person and story in the Bible are merely metaphors for how our minds deal with our reality? I’m open to that. It still doesn’t prove God exists.
@Divan
Did you just try to understand evolution by a dictionary definition? There are volumes written to explain it in detail. You read a couple of sentences, and you ask what you are missing?
@McBlog
But I don’t want volumes, if I were a person on the street how would you explain evolution to me in a short, simple yet easy to grasp way?
Divan, you know what you are missing. You have asked a crazy hypothetical questions about a fish DECIDING to evolve. The error of that, the lack of knowledge of evolution, is clear from your words. You speak of evolution as if millions of years goes by simply because a fish ‘decides’ something. Either you lack knowledge of evolution or you are deliberatly misrepresenting evolution. Given the choice, I assumed you lacked the knowledge. If you claim to truly know evolution, then that means you are knowingly lying about evolution. Would you rather be ignorant, or deceptive? Your choice.
I notice that you have no response to complaints that you are using circular reasoning. This is not something that you can just ignore. You are using circular reasoning. Now, admit it and learn from your mistakes. Its not like you can use it and then pretend it does not matter. Your reasoning is based on a clear and simple fallacy. If you refuse to admit something that is perfectly clear to all of us, what does that make you? Someone who steadfastly denies a thing that can be shown simply and clearly. What do you call those people? I call them willfully ignorant.
If you are still claiming that nothing is ever an ex-anything else, then I’m afraid I must question your sanity. That would be like claiming that nothing changes, ever. Ever. Think about that, please. Do you live in a static universe? But you don’t actually believe that, you just have to pretend to because you are unwilling to admit to an error. I think that you are really just unwilling to accept that people can believe, truly believe as deeply as you seem to, and then change. You deny this possibility, something that seems perfectly obvious and reasonable to others. Why would you deny this? Well, my guess is fear and shame. Your deepest beliefs have been challenged and in order to protect your self esteem you must claim that nobody who ever falls away from christianity could ever have been a true christian. You can look up this fallacy on the internet, don’t just take it from me. Put your words into google and hit enter. If you read the results that come up you will surely find yourself
PS. Don’t bother asking people to define evolution. That is a common tactic from people who come here pretending to be open minded. If you want a definition, use a dictionary. Asking people for their own is just a ploy to get people to create a rushed an inaccurate definition in order to let you have a few easy targets. Don’t be that way. If you truly want to discuss things you will not ever feel the urge to trick and manipulate people like that. You can search for the definition of evolution as easy as any of us can, so just go do it.
@Aor
If you know all the angles and tricks I’m going to use to deceive you, why are you still debating with me, you just might fall into my snare……
This is how I decomplecate a complecated evolution theory-
Coincidence, coincidence, coincidence, BANG, swim, swim, crawl, crawl, walk, walk………Human.
“I think therefore I am”
Evolution in a nutshell
You’re seriously embarrassing yourself here.
Here’s my short answer to help you out…
Add BILLIONS more occurrences and nuances in between all of those, with extremely subtle differences (imagine a billion shades between light grey and dark grey), and stretch it out over hundreds of millions of years (a time span that is hardly even imaginable to the human mind).
Divan, if you are admitting to being a liar then thanks.
You have made some ridiculous claims. I think if you intended to be honest with yourself and us, you would make some effort to back them up. Again you purposely misdefine evolution, which shows that you intend to lie. Think about that, Divan.
Why would you ever feel the need to lie to us in order to back up your beliefs?
If what you believe is the truth, explain why you would resort to lies and evasions.
I notice that you avoid responding to the points I raised. We can all see that. Even you can. Ask yourself how you would react to that if it happened to you. Imagine, an atheist made a series of claims, imagine that you managed to quickly cast doubt on them, and then that atheist tried to redefine terms and avoided admitting anything at all. Can you see it yet? Can you see your own hypocrisy?
You have shown that you lack understanding of evolution. If you learn nothing else from this experience I hope you have learned that whoever taught you about evolution was wrong. Go out and learn about it. If evolution is simple to disprove then your efforts will be rewarded. You will have acquired the ability to disprove evolution and you can come back and use that here and on any other atheist website.
I challenge you to do that. Really. I want you to try. You have no chance of success, but just trying will make you a better person.
A you really an atheist? You sure? Would you happen to believe in good and evil? If you do, well then while you might not believe in some man in the sky, or some guy in red tights that pokes you with a pitchfork.. (stuff you’ve seen on tv).but if you believe in good and evil, that’s what it’s all about. Explain what happens when people seem to get heeled of illnesses out of nowhere. I was diagnosed with MS a year ago, and was a mess when I came home from the hospital. I got saved and make prayer a regular part of my life and I have improved so much I feel almost totally better. Explain that.