Abortion Is a Blood Sacrifice Unto Satan!

Knife and BloodHere’s a deranged priest that performs exorcisms who calls abortion a “demonic industry.” Listen to this guy. He’s nuts:

“Abortion is a demonic industry,” he told The Bulletin. “Abortion is blood sacrifice of innocent blood to the devil. The clinics are like temples, the doctors are like priests, the medical table is like their altar. It’s a ritualized sacrifice. They have a dogma called choice, a hierarchy called Planned Parenthood, and guardian angels in the form of police guards that will arrest you if you try to stop them.”

Now that’s some loaded language. He’s trying to make abortion look like a satanic religion, when really it’s just a medical procedure.

He said that there have been abortionists who have called abortion “their sacrament.”

As Wikipedia would say, “citation needed.” Perhaps someone said this, but if they did, they were joking. But he doesn’t sound like the kind of guy who would get a joke.

“Abortion is a spiritual evil,” he said. “If we are to beat it, we can’t just fight it in the political realm. It derives its power from below. To confront a force this strong, you need a massive amount of prayer.”

If God has such a problem with abortion, why doesn’t he do away with it? God allows or causes millions of miscarriages each year from natural causes. He told the Israelites to kill innocent children. He even killed King David’s son for David’s sin. The God of the Bible doesn’t seem to have any problem with killing children. So I wouldn’t expect his help in these matters.

But he can pray all he wants, because it’ll keep him busy and away from little boys. Okay, that was uncalled for. I repent.

Anyway, this crazy priest goes on about exorcisms and demonic influence. He says:

I’m very set against Harry Potter, it’s pumping into our children’s minds the language and imagery of the occult. It’s extremely spiritually dangerous….

The number of soft-core occultism in the form of things like Harry Potter, Wicca and the New Age is on the increase. These are the gateways to the hardcore stuff. Ask any inner-city police department if they’re seeing evidence of Satanism. They’re organizing whole task forces to deal with crimes having to do with these things.

What’s astounding is this nutjob actually believes magic exists! And who knows where he gets the idea that police are seeing evidence of Satanism and creating task forces against it. Probably from an email forward.

Again, citation needed.

(via)

  • http://endemoniada.org Martin

    Haha, this is hilarious! I take it this man hasn’t heard George Carlin explain this ridiculous obsession with unborn fetuses.

    Sure, save some unborn, unwanted children at the expense of the hundreds of thousands who die of AIDS all over the world because condoms are “of the devil!”. Makes perfect sense.

    • JAVIER GLZ

      I just want to clear up, that I am for life, pro-life and will put my life on the line, to defend babies. The reason I am explaining is some evil person is redirecting a lot of your e-mails to me. But hey if they like to kill babies, then doing other evil is really easy. Has anybody seen how they do a PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION?? I mean if we did that to some turtles, dolphins or dogs, U.S. would be in an uproar. But in the U.S., it is legal to murder, the innocent calling it a right, what evil, wouldn’t it be easier to be responsible and when you have your immoral sex. The lady who invented abortion is margret sanger, she did it because she and her buddies, thought that there are some races that are just poor, and do not contribute nothing to society in general and the just have a lot children and they eat up the world resources. Her goal was to exterminate them, with a pretty word, like “abortion”, because murder is such strong word. Oh by the way m. sanger is the founder of Planned Parent Hood of America, 51 million babies so far and counting. This has nothing to do with womens rights and everything to do with killing and murdering o I meant aborting, the undesired. But that’s not all, coming to your neighborhood soon, THE POPULATION STABILIZATION PROGRAMS. And, if killing babies is so good, why have I not seen the video on the aborted babies found in trash cans?? Why have the blocked, erased, eliminated, and have people on stand by just to remove the video, THE HARD TRUTH?? The murders do not want you to see the truth, you just keep having sex, sex, sex, and more sex, and they’ll take of the killing part. You just close you eyes to the truth!!! Blind leading the blind.

      • Yoav

        Baby fuc*ing jesus on a stick, you’re dumb. Have you actually read the comment you’re replying to, how is your rent relevant for the question of fundies objecting to contraceptives even though they are the best way to reduce abortion rates without risking the mothers. And get over the babies in the trash can BS, most abortions are done in early stages when the embryo is nothing but a ball of cells. Late term and definitely partial birth abortion are only done when the mother’s ife is at risk and saving both her and the embryo is not an option.

      • Kodie

        The reason I am explaining is some evil person is redirecting a lot of your e-mails to me.

        An evil person who checked the boxes to receive follow-up comments in email and subscribe?

        • Just paying attn

          Okay guys, I really want to respond to all of quotes….but yeah I haven’t had that much free time lately. It’s good…but I still want to respond…so unfortunately it takes me a lil longer to respond to you guys. Just wanted you to know. Also all of you have a great weekend.

          2 more things:
          1) I do not think you are evil if you have an abortion or if you support it…I know I’ve said that like 5 times already…but I have to say it again…cause people keep thinking that I’m saying that people are evil for abortions.
          2) I really do care about both the mothers and the kids…and I know things aren’t black and white in life…but you still have to say when things aren’t right. I never said it was an easy choice. But they are kids…or they are cells which will turn into kids…I just want people to think about it.

          But again…have a great weekend…and don’t go too crazy people ;D

      • claidheamh mor

        I just want to clear up, that I am for life, pro-life and will put my life on the line,

        No, you’re not. You’re full of shit – if you cared about people (babies and adults), you would be out there providing cheap, safe, effective contraception and sterilization, and the sex education to go with it. That would prevent abortions. Which isn’t what you want at all. You don’t want to prevent abortions. You want them to continue so you can punish people for having them.

        • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/ WMDKitty

          It’s all about the slut-shaming, as usual.

          • Custador

            It always is.

      • DarkMatter

        “THE HARD TRUTH?? The murders do not want you to see the truth, you just keep having sex, sex, sex, and more sex, and they’ll take of the killing part.”
        What’s that?

        • Sunny Day

          Baby burgers from Applebees. Where do you think we get the meat.

          Yummmm!

      • Just paying attn

        Late term and definitely partial birth abortion are only done when the mother’s life is at risk and saving both her and the embryo is not an option.

        That sounds right doesn’t or atleast thats what they tell us. See Yoav I cant be mad at you, thats just what your told. It would seem that killing the baby in the 3rd trimester is a horrible tragedy, and should only be done if the mother’s health is in question, right? But what is the court definition of health in this type of case? Anybody know?….Hmmmm?….. I do.

        They adopted the definition from the World Health Organization, this definition states that any condition that might impact her physical, emotional, psychological or financial well being is considered health.

        So that means if the new baby will cause too much emotional stress (i’m sad now I cant go hang with my friends that much anymore), if the baby is too much of a psychological struggle (I cant think any more, the baby is going to drive me crazy…cause I dont want to give up that much time for a kid yet), or if it’s too much of a financial burden ( well I wanna have unprotected sex, but I dont want to pay for my “mistake”). So now it is very easy to get late abortions, and thats why they have such relaxed definitions of health in our court system for abortions. You say the right things and it will be granted. Are there moms that need abortions? yes they are. But let’s not be fooled…most abortions are not for health reasons. They are because people dont want the responsibilty of a child yet, but instead of being careful….you say I’ll do it unprotected…I can always abort. I’ve heard it from friends and at social gatherings many times. I’ve probably thought the same thing, being fed the same stuff they feed all of us mentally with. So lets not lie and say that it’s all about the mother’s health, it’s all about the potential mother and father…not giving a crap about their baby…trading in their baby’s life for a few more nights of partying.

        • Custador

          Go fuck yourself sideways, judgemental piece of shit.

        • Siberia

          They are because people dont want the responsibilty of a child yet, but instead of being careful….you say I’ll do it unprotected…I can always abort.

          So you’d rather that people who do not want or care for children (say, me) have a child because, tough titty, they got pregnant?

          You do realize the number of children tortured after they’re born by uncaring parents who hate them, right?

          But you’d rather protect a what-if than a born child. Because you don’t care about babies; you care about forcing people to procreate against their will if they made a mistake.

        • Nzo

          So lets not lie and say that it’s all about the mother’s health, it’s all about the potential mother and father…not giving a crap about their baby…trading in their baby’s life for a few more nights of partying.

          So let’s not lie and say it’s all about caring for the child. It’s all about what god tells me is right. It doesn’t matter if the “baby” in most cases is just a collection of cells, those cells absolutely must survive because my preacher tells me they’re already a baby. It also doesn’t matter that the mother and father are obviously unfit to have a baby, I’m going to try to force them to have one even if the baby would suffer because the parents obviously don’t want it.

          Fixed it for you.

          • Siberia

            Yeah, who cares about born babies and their happiness or safety, right? It’s all about those darn satanic women (hey, they’re already born so they don’t matter) having wild sex and getting away with it.

            • Just paying attn

              So you’d rather that people who do not want or care for children (say, me) have a child because, tough titty, they got pregnant?

              You do realize the number of children tortured after they’re born by uncaring parents who hate them, right?

              But you’d rather protect a what-if than a born child. Because you don’t care about babies; you care about forcing people to procreate against their will if they made a mistake.

              Siberia now this is a world class argument right here. Up to now alot of the comments made weren’t that good, they were masked insult tirades. But a few like these were/are really good.

              You are right, very right. It is a huge problem, but that doesn’t mean abortion isn’t a problem. The question should be, why do we have some many abortions? I was just addressing the subject line of this forum. Now abortion doesn’t make you evil, but people gotta stop making fairytales up on why they do it. Most of the reasons are selfish…it’s not usually cause the mother is about to die a horrible death by giving birth. But yes parents who are not ready for kids are almost just as bad as aborting…because the kids suffer. But thats when we have to look at alternatives…which they are many.

              Literally they’re are options…it’s not just abort or torture the kids. But I commend you, very good argument. Only if Custador could stop being crazy and use the smarts that I know he has.

              I know you dont want me to say this, but God loves you all…abortions or not. Lol I can see spitting on the screen, ready to burn my keyboard. But really is love that bad, it’s no worse than thinking the government actually cares about us.

            • Just paying attn

              Yeah, who cares about born babies and their happiness or safety, right? It’s all about those darn satanic women (hey, they’re already born so they don’t matter) having wild sex and getting away with it.

              Okay I dont why yall keep saying I dont care about the moms, cause I’ve said consistently that I care about the moms. This just happens to be a forum about abortions….so thats what I’m speaking on. It’s not like most moms die when they give birth, so they are not harmed by the children.
              Lets clear this up, because there seems to be a misunderstanding…you are not a bad person if you have an abortion, God loves all people regardless. But if the abortion is unecessary it is wrong, and we all do wrong things…but one of the goals in life is to become better each day. So if you know you’re doing something wrong then you should try to correct it. The problem is everyone is acting like abortions are not wrong.

              Whatever happened to the person that you were sleeping with actually being important enough to you, that you would have a child with them? What happened to caring enough for your future children that you have protective sex until you are ready to have that child? Really there is a deeper problem here and that is meaningless sex and bad sexual practices. We all have done wrong things, and we will do wrong things until we die unfortunately….but where are the stand-up people who can say when they are wrong?

            • Custador

              The fact that you’ve said it does not make it so – your own words have already proven that you don’t give a damn about them. Zomg! I just called you a liar and called you on your bullsh1t!

            • Just paying attn

              The fact that you’ve said it does not make it so – your own words have already proven that you don’t give a damn about them. Zomg! I just called you a liar and called you on your bullsh1t!

              Nope, you’re lying. I definitely care about both the mom and the children. You aint hear me say nothing about not caring about moms

            • Jasowah

              I have to agree with Custador on that. You really don’t seem to care about the mothers. Saying “I care” and then inferring that the rules for aborting should be stronger doesn’t seem to show a lot of care.

              And this:
              “Whatever happened to the person that you were sleeping with actually being important enough to you, that you would have a child with them? What happened to caring enough for your future children that you have protective sex until you are ready to have that child?”

              Life is messed up. Your loving God seems to have seen to that, or let the devil do it, or whatever (there are a million excuses for God). You seem to be living in a black-and-white-disney-world, and life is not so simple. If a woman wants to have 50 abortions per year, that is really her choice. If you think that stopping people from having abortions is going to somehow make people more responsible and think more before they act, you have spent too much time in your basement. All that will happen is more problems.

              Do you have any ****ing idea what it’s like to be raised by a mother who couldn’t give 2 shits about you? You may, because it’s really common, but from what I’ve read I will guess no.

              But hey, I’m just ranting because I hate this pro-life crap, and I know ANYTHING even remotely logical or sensible that attacks that will be lost on a person who keeps telling people on an Atheist website that “[God loves them]“.

              So please, go on and enjoy your ” lovey-God-high” while the world suffers from your religion’s forced ignorance. You’re fighting the good fight, remember?

            • Just paying attn

              I have to agree with Custador on that. You really don’t seem to care about the mothers. Saying “I care” and then inferring that the rules for aborting should be stronger doesn’t seem to show a lot of care.

              I do care, and if you do make laws stronger that doesn’t mean you dont care. The purpose of making the laws of abortion more strict instead of so loose…is to deter people from making it their primary choice especially with no really research on abortions side effects. It’s like the government enforcing texting laws…it’s not because the goverment hates all texters…it’s because people weren’t paying attention to the road like they should be. In the same way if your son crashes your ferrari at 200 mph and manages to live….to save his life the next time you might put a speed modifier on your cars so when he drives he can go only 70 mph max. This isn’t because you hate him, it prohibits him from endangering his life with a stupid decision. Many people make the uneducated choice to choose abortions without even thinking of the consequences. The laws need to be stricter on abortions…cause too many people choose it without thinking.

              By the way if all of you care so much about the mothers….how come I never hear anyone talk about the dangers abortions can cause to womens’ natural child bearing system, numerous adverse body reactions to the procedures, and many accounts of sickness right after abortions?

              Life is messed up. Your loving God seems to have seen to that, or let the devil do it, or whatever (there are a million excuses for God). You seem to be living in a black-and-white-disney-world, and life is not so simple. If a woman wants to have 50 abortions per year, that is really her choice. If you think that stopping people from having abortions is going to somehow make people more responsible and think more before they act, you have spent too much time in your basement. All that will happen is more problems.

              Yea life is messed up, but thats not because of God…it’s because people have free will….and most times we choose the stingy choice over the best choice for all. Thats just what we do. God gave us free will, cause He didn’t want to force anybody to Him…but most of us will never choose Him. See He is real love, unconditional love….but most of us only love under certain conditions. So basically we love if people do want we want them to do. But yea we all pretty much choose stingyness over love…and this is one of the roots of our many problems.

              As for making people responsible for how they act, that only comes when there is conflict after a bad choice….if when you do something bad and nothing happens to you after your bad decision….you naturally will keep doing it. So since getting an abortion is soooo easy….no one really thinks about it. Plus people are hardly educated about the side effects, which makes it even easier to get one…if people think they are really no consequences for them. If people studied the effects of abortion on the mom and the child…and published and thought it….I guarantee they would be less abortions. I guarantee it.

              Do you have any ****ing idea what it’s like to be raised by a mother who couldn’t give 2 shits about you? You may, because it’s really common, but from what I’ve read I will guess no.

              But hey, I’m just ranting because I hate this pro-life crap, and I know ANYTHING even remotely logical or sensible that attacks that will be lost on a person who keeps telling people on an Atheist website that “[God loves them]“.

              Yes bad parents do suck….but does that mean you should be killed because your mom and dad sucks as parents? Why kill the baby for that?

              Can you explain why you hate pro-life….dude i’m for more babies living….and you hate me for that….what sense does that make. By the way, dont throw me into the boat with other pro-life people that are terroristic with their views. There are sensible pro-life people, just like there are sensible and not so sensible pro-choice people. I’m saying educate, make it harder to get abortions, and after that I’m still saying God will love you anyway….and that having an abortion doesn’t make you evil….and you hate me for that.

              Wow!

              By the way just cause this is an aethiest website….doesn’t mean I cant tell you the truth that God loves you…I’m not asking….I’m stating that fact….cause it’s true. I’m not here to speak about hate….we all are different….but that doesn’t mean we cant seek the truth together….even if we take different routes.

            • Nzo

              tl;dr

              Just paying attn
              August 11, 2010 at 2:07 am <—- Godbot wall text.

              Nothing new, nothing even remotely logical or useful. Godbot refuses to learn, posts same lies and BS pretending to care when he/she/it doesn't.

              Seriously, get a life. This thread died a month ago… your arguments died before you made them. You are wrong because you believe an invisible sky daddy doesn't want everyone else in the world to have abortions… and you'd force that into law if you could. You deserve every ounce of the bad things that are said to you, or happen to you, for that.

              You're morally and intellectually inferior, and I personally hope your genes end with you. You refuse to learn anything, or educate yourself on the issue, instead, going with what you think your god wants… which ultimately is only what your preacher tells you an imaginary "god" wants.

              You're a disgusting individual JPA.

            • Just paying attn

              Nothing new, nothing even remotely logical or useful. Godbot refuses to learn, posts same lies and BS pretending to care when he/she/it doesn’t.

              Seriously, get a life. This thread died a month ago… your arguments died before you made them. You are wrong because you believe an invisible sky daddy doesn’t want everyone else in the world to have abortions… and you’d force that into law if you could. You deserve every ounce of the bad things that are said to you, or happen to you, for that.

              Nzo shut up, you are so full of it. Even if you dont agree I provided the facts and disproved your lie…cause you said they were little kids I showed you they weren’t so dont get mad boy. The only reason you haven’t completely lost is cause are in an aetheist thread, so yall support each other no matter how outlandish the statements are. It is so clear I disproved you. Yea Mr.Nzo you got defeated thats why you so angry.

              Now next lie to get to. The thread is dead. Before I answered this thread….nobody said anything in it for the longest while….(check if you dont believe me).This is the internet Mr. Nzo the thread isn’t dead until it is deleted. So I brought back the thread when it was super dormant…and then I brought back after only a month. There are literally threads that people respond to after years…so you lose again Nzo. Thread is dead huh? No. Your agrument is dead…because you went from having facts to nothing but wack insults. (That is a sure fire way to tell that you have lost). KO….goodbye. Go over your statement…see what you’ve actually said…literally you’ve actually said nothing….go over it I dare you.

              You’re morally and intellectually inferior, and I personally hope your genes end with you. You refuse to learn anything, or educate yourself on the issue, instead, going with what you think your god wants… which ultimately is only what your preacher tells you an imaginary “god” wants.

              You’re a disgusting individual JPA.

              I dont just go with what my God wants…I weigh the facts….I actually studied what you said. Unlike you I do the research….I made sure I looked up what you said. Because they way you said it…it sounded bad….so I had to see if God would harm kids just like that….and He didn’t Nzo. Those were older adolescents and young men. So I saw God didn’t do what you said, I answered your question. And now you’re mad. Listen to the lies you’ve come out with….cause you were proved wrong. You actually said the thread was dead…lol Nzo…you’re losing it. You actually didn’t even state anything useful in last statement. I enjoyed your real statements while they lasted.

            • Custador

              Godbot troll is still a trolling godbot. Please people, stop feeding him.

        • Just paying attn

          Go f*** yourself sideways, judgemental piece of shit.

          Ahhh Custador, oh how you make me laugh. See I’m married, so I dont ever have to do myself…thank God. As for you maybe you should do yourself, cause after you do it without protection…then the girl becomes pregnant….you’ll probably kill the lil man or woman. It’s fine though, because God loves you anyway. Seriously He really does. But Custador, imagine if you were aborted. Who’s foul mouth would I have to endure?

          By the way, just because somebody says something is wrong doesn’t mean they are judgemental. If you mom told your son/daughter (assuming you let one of them live) dont put your hand on the stove when it’s on…because it’s wrong…is she a judgemental piece of you know?

          • Custador

            “just because somebody says something is wrong doesn’t mean they are judgemental”

            No, but we’re not talking about what “somebody” says is “wrong”, we’re talking about what YOU said and how YOU said it – and you’re a disgusting, hypocritical, foul, judgemental piece of sh1t.

            • Just paying attn

              No, but we’re not talking about what “somebody” says is “wrong”, we’re talking about what YOU said and how YOU said it – and you’re a disgusting, hypocritical, foul, judgemental piece of sh1t

              Custador seriously, why are you so angry. It’s like you got pent up rage for nothing. I clearly am not your problem in life, when you sign off…we have no contact. Anything I say in here…causes you no harm. So why are you so mad?

              How I said it? I think it’s wrong, you think it’s right…we are just on opposing sides. I’m providing my views on why I think it’s wrong…and I’m giving facts, definitions, and detailed explainations on why it’s wrong. You just keep hurling insults….what’s up with that? I wish you would actually take the effort to provide stimulating reasons on why you are right.

            • JohnMWhite

              What facts are these?

    • Just paying attn

      I cant really blame them as of yet, most people are educated that abortions are right because it’s legal and it supports your freedom of choice. If we had a poll, an honest poll, of why most people get abortions…it would have nothing to do with a dying or ill mother…most people do it because they still want to “live their lives”, without the “new responsibilities” (the baby). No guilt baby….just a dead child sucked out from being fully formed in the mom. Freedom of choice is right, freedom to murder is wrong though.

      • Custador

        STOP COMPARING IT TO MURDER. You state that again and again and again like it’s an established fact, ignoring all of the FACTS which prove you wrong. ABORTION IS NOT MURDER. Take my medical opinion and shove your dogma up your sigmoid colon.

      • Nzo

        No guilt baby….just a dead child sucked out from being fully formed in the mom. Freedom of choice is right, freedom to murder is wrong though.

        Loaded words with no foundation for using them.

        The cells wouldn’t mature on their own, they wouldn’t develop into a human, therefore, removing them from the mother in any way, shape, or form, is like removing a splinter or tumor. The emotional attachment to these cells doesn’t make them special.

        It doesn’t really matter WHY women get abortions. It’s really none of your business.

        The ones doing it because they aren’t ready should be applauded. They’re honest enough with themselves to take care of the issue before those cells, properly incubated, become a baby.

        Your religious “that’s just wrong” crap isn’t going to fly here. A fertilized egg is NOT a human. Just like every unfertilized egg isn’t a human, and every sperm isn’t a human. Arguing any different shows ignorance, hypocrisy, and bigotry.

        • Jasowah

          “A fertilized egg is NOT a human. Just like every unfertilized egg isn’t a human, and every sperm isn’t a human. Arguing any different shows ignorance, hypocrisy, and bigotry.”

          But not if you arbitrarily pick a point in it’s development and say “THAT’s where God puts the SOUL in! Therefore it’s murder!”

          “The ones doing it because they aren’t ready should be applauded.”

          So true. Yet sadly due to religious weed-wackers like this guy, many women feel ashamed and afraid of people finding out. I only know this from hearsay and the one person I know who has had this done, but I’m going to assume.

          • Nzo

            Why would even a nutcase like Attn need an arbitrary place? It’s obviously the point in development when the mother is no longer needed. Other than that, the “baby” is a parasite.

            • Just paying attn

              Why would even a nutcase like Attn need an arbitrary place? It’s obviously the point in development when the mother is no longer needed. Other than that, the “baby” is a parasite.

              Lol, you’re so funny. I have never discarded the mother…are you paying attention to the subject of this forum? It’s about abortions…which kills the baby not the mother. Shoot if you want to place false worry among the crowd why not try a more outrageous viewpoint…what about the poor doctors who wont be able to buy two mercedes if they dont get abortion money? They will suffer…I feel their pain.

              I bet it just delights you to call babies parasites, they might be parasites by definition only…but any true parent will tell you how much of a joy their kids are.

            • Custador

              Time to stop feeding the troll.

            • DarkMatter

              through gunshot hole, where again?

          • Just paying attn

            But not if you arbitrarily pick a point in it’s development and say “THAT’s where God puts the SOUL in! Therefore it’s murder!”

            Oooo you’re good, not! Get serious dude…its murder because a child isn’t a child because he or she isout of the womb….yall keep acting like all abortions are done to unformed babies. That’s a lie though and you know it.

            So true. Yet sadly due to religious weed-wackers like this guy, many women feel ashamed and afraid of people finding out. I only know this from hearsay and the one person I know who has had this done, but I’m going to assume.

            This has nothing to do with religion. People of different religions and no religion don’t like abortions, and there are people who are in Christianity that support abortions. So keep your mouth closed if you dont what you’re talking about. You get no applause because you choose to get rid of a baby, because of your actions and not because of health reasons.

            By the way why should you be proud that you’ve had an abortion? How is that something you should walk around and boast aboout? Are you are the kind of person that would?

            • Nox

              Wait? You’re back to defending imaginary babies now? Weren’t you defending genocide like 18 hours ago?

            • Just paying attn

              Wait? You’re back to defending imaginary babies now? Weren’t you defending genocide like 18 hours ago?

              By imaginary…do you mean not real? Because the last time I checked Mr.Nox if you had an imaginary car and left it there for say 9 months the car wont become real. So that imaginary ferrari you got…aint coming til you step up the income Nox. But if you leave that “imaginary baby” in the womb for 9 months tell me what comes out?

              As for genocide, the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group, thats not what occured. They killed the other group because that group was killing them off physically and spiritually. If you think every mass killing is such a problem why have I not heard you say anything about being against all wars.
              Anyway though, you never answered what you would do? What would you do if all your family and community were dying and being killed by the neighboring community….would you just stay there and let them kill your family and you?

            • Nzo

              Logic Fail

              We know the imaginary baby being referred to is a collection of cells ignorant christians are emotionally attached to. Those cells are NOT babies, they’re cells with the potential to become babies, if properly incubated.

              Your car argument is so far off the mark… realize the difference in a biological possibility VS a christian-like jedi mind trick (pray for a car). Makes perfect sense, to compare the two, doesn’t it?

            • Jabster

              “Because the last time I checked Mr.Nox if you had an imaginary car and left it there for say 9 months the car wont become real.”

              … and if you roger you’r car up the exhaust pipe you’re not going to get a baby car in 9 months time are you?

            • Yoav

              … and if you roger you’r car up the exhaust pipe you’re not going to get a baby car in 9 months time are you?
              Wrong hole, the gas filling cap is for baby cars.

            • Kodie

              Just lay off everyone who works at the manufacturing plant, and then tell them to get off their ass and find a job when there are no jobs.

        • Just paying attn

          Loaded words with no foundation for using them.

          The cells wouldn’t mature on their own, they wouldn’t develop into a human, therefore, removing them from the mother in any way, shape, or form, is like removing a splinter or tumor. The emotional attachment to these cells doesn’t make them special.

          Ohhhh it’s so funny no one has any comments about when the baby is the later stages, or of course partial birth abortions. I know yall see it, so answer it…like I said I answer all of you all’s questions…whats with the beating around the bush. Yea ok you think that in the early stages, the baby is not developed enough to be called murder…what about the later stages?

          The ones doing it because they aren’t ready should be applauded. They’re honest enough with themselves to take care of the issue before those cells, properly incubated, become a baby.

          Applauded. Noooo, thomas edison should be applauded, martin luther king should be applauded, nobel peace prize winners should be applauded (most of em atleast)…how is somebody that gets an abortion cause they’re “not ready” applaudable. You still aint say nothing about those parents who agree to kill their babies in the later stages….should they be applauded too?

          Your religious “that’s just wrong” crap isn’t going to fly here. A fertilized egg is NOT a human. Just like every unfertilized egg isn’t a human, and every sperm isn’t a human. Arguing any different shows ignorance, hypocrisy, and bigotry.

          Nice try. Number one I’m not religious so get it right. I dont follow customs because eveyone is doing it. I believe in God, and read the Bible. I dont follow man’s idea of God, I follow God. Thats not religion. Two it is wrong to abort, own up to it…you make it then take it. If you want to not have a baby take the precautions not to. If you abort you aren’t evil, but you have done something wrong. Sometimes you gotta take the harder times and consequences. Three I am far from ignorant….just because I dont agree with you doesn’t make me ignorant. Four how am I a hypocrite? I am not continously aborting my children and then tell you all not to do it. Fifth bigot, lol come on…did you just start throwing in words there with no sort of basis. You wanna throw in racist, woman hater, drunk too. Come on kid, the end of your comment completely invalidated your points. Stay on course the next time.

          You’re wrong because you’re not owning up to your responsibilities, you’re wrong because abortions are happening later and later, you’re wrong because everyone acts like its fine to kill a child just because he/she is in the womb…no matter what stage the pregnancy is in. Yall act like Christians are the only people who have a problem with abortions, this isn’t a religious problem. It’s a people problem, some Christians support abortions…and some atheist dont support abortion. Please stop the lameness. This has nothing to do with religion, it’s wrong.

      • Just paying attn

        STOP COMPARING IT TO MURDER. You state that again and again and again like it’s an established fact, ignoring all of the FACTS which prove you wrong. ABORTION IS NOT MURDER. Take my medical opinion and shove your dogma up your sigmoid colon.

        What facts…you haven’t provided any facts. I’m the one thats bringing in the defitions and citing facts. Here’s another fact for you. Since yall consider the 1st trimester…unimportant, but we’ll deal with that some other time. Because it is all important.

        There are approximately 1.3 million abortions a year in the US (Source: Finer LB and Henshaw SK, Estimates of U.S. Abortion Incidence in 2001 and 2002, Alan Guttmacher Institute, 2005)

        Out of those 1.3 million about 156,000 are after the 1st trimester. If you killed a 156,000 dogs then you would never walk the streets….the nation kills 156,000 babies (after the 1st trimester). How is everyone without conscience on the issue, can you say blinded. Please tell me how that is ok, how can you justify that? There are alot of kids who don’t even make it to 9 months and are born premature and grow up to be normal adults…but I guess they dont count as people because they didn’t come out their mom after 9 months. By the way you still haven’t told me how partial birth abortion isn’t murder? Hmmm? The baby is alive, then stabbed in the head. You’re responding to everything else where is your response to that you cold hearted sarcastic tool. Where are your facts, and how come you aren’t answering the hard questions? I’ve answered all of you guys questions: hard and simple.

        You’re such a coward, the kind that only kills a person before they’re out of the womb…big man you are.

        Anyway here’s the table with abortions by weeks, bet you find some petty thing to add a snide comment to…and skirt the real issues again.

        Gestational Age Percentage Yearly Total
        Less than 9 weeks 57.9% 752,700
        9-10 weeks 20.3% 263,900
        11-12 weeks 10.2% 132,600
        13-15 weeks 6.2% 80,600
        16-20 weeks 4.3% 55,900
        21+ weeks 1.5% 19,500
        (Source: Alan Guttmacher Institute, 2001.)

        • Nzo

          What facts…you haven’t provided any facts. I’m the one thats bringing in the defitions and citing facts. Here’s another fact for you. Since yall consider the 1st trimester…unimportant, but we’ll deal with that some other time. Because it is all important.

          It is a fact that the “baby” is a parasite until it is able to survive out of the womb without the mother or extensive medical equipment. The fact that you’re not dealing with this tells me that you really don’t have a good answer for your stupidity and ignorance on this subject.

          There are approximately 1.3 million abortions a year in the US (Source: Finer LB and Henshaw SK, Estimates of U.S. Abortion Incidence in 2001 and 2002, Alan Guttmacher Institute, 2005)

          Anywhere from %10-%25 of ALL pregnancies end in miscarriage.

          If your god is all powerful, then he is the most prolific abortionist ever.

          Your other arguments just really pale in comparison here, don’t they?

          You’re such a coward, the kind that only kills a person before they’re out of the womb…big man you are.

          You’re such an idiot. Claiming that a parasite with the possibility of becoming a baby is already a baby. There’s just no end to your stupidity, is there attn?

        • Yoav

          Even your own numbers show that ~90% of abortion are done in the 1st trimester which highlight the dishonesty of your attempt to shift the argument to late term abortion. In addition the source you quote didn’t differentiate between elective abortion and those that were a result of a medical emergency or risk to the mother’s life.

          • Just paying attn

            Even your own numbers show that ~90% of abortion are done in the 1st trimester which highlight the dishonesty of your attempt to shift the argument to late term abortion. In addition the source you quote didn’t differentiate between elective abortion and those that were a result of a medical emergency or risk to the mother’s life.

            Well first off I hope you weekend was good?
            Now as for the discussion…what I was doing was giving you the actual numbers behind the abortions. Telling you that 10 percent of abortions are after the first trimester…means nothing. But telling you that this happens to hundreds of thousands of babies…gives you a little better grasp on whats really happening.
            I like how you rounded that up though, lol….I see what your doing…taking a little of the sting out of the numbers :D I’ll take that though…it is about 90 percent.

            Still though…how is over 150,000 deaths after the 1st trimester justified?

            Not that old line again. Make up your fuc*ing mind, either the buybull is the perfect word of god and a guideline to morality or it describes the practices of a bronze age tribal culture and shouldn’t be used as a model for how you should live your life. You can’t have it both ways.

            My mind is made up :D Why can’t it be both…I didn’t know things were prohibited from having dual usuages these days. Just like a history book can tell you what went on in the past, and warn you what not to do in the present and future…the Bible can do the same. So it serves as both…plus the Bible goes from the beginning of time…to the end of time. So it even talks about now and the future. It’s not just a history book…it tells of future events also. While doing all of that…it also guides you along to becoming the best you…that you possibly can.

  • dr.R.

    Don’t forget to check out the comments – it gives an interesting insight into the world view of some people.

    Come to think of it, some christians actually believe that the pope is the antichrist, so maybe this priest can also be called “satanic”? Talking about “ritualized sacrifice” …

  • Jabster

    Well besides the general nutjobiness I think the main thing to say about Harry Potter is if you don’t believe in him why are you so angry with him?

  • sidhe

    I’m sitting here with my jaw on the floor…wow…

    • javier gonzalez

      Would get a joke!! You mean to tell me, that murdering, killing and mutilating a child is some kind of JOKE? Google some abortion pictures and you tell me if you think it is abortion or murder?? If someone would have aborted or interrupted YOU, as they so eloquently express themselves, what would it have been called? Anyone with half a brain would know it is, Murder. You should ask your parents how close you were to being part of the 50,000,000 abortions in the U.S.A. Hypocrites in the highest degree, you say you are humanitarian but after 50,000,000 innocent babies, no one believes you. Repent and return to GOD, and show you have changed your ways by your good works, you have not bought you life, you could go this minute this hour, this day, this week, but one thing is for sure you better be right with GOD, or you will go to eternal HELL, the lake of fire, for torment for your long line of sins, which you are committing. Remember once your there, there is no return so you better make the most important decision in your life and eternity regarding your soul, very carefully.
      This is a sacrifice to satan, because he is the father of murders. In the past idol worshipers used to have an idol of gold and with his hands in front of him, people would heat up the hands with fire till it was white and throw live new born baby in the hands of the idol to incinerate it, for the blessing of prosperity, money, material possessions, and put the ashes in there office, home, or place of business. What’s the difference today, they kill a baby so it doesn’t affect a career, job, schooling, promotion, so you have more money, so I guess it’s o.k. if you murder but you have lot of money and lots of things. When you die you take nothing except your good works, just like when you were born you came with nothing. July 4 is judgment day so you only have a little time use it wisely.

      • Justin

        you, my good sir, are completely and utterly wrong to the highest degree. religion was invented by MEN who wanted to have control over an out of control society. do your history homework dude. god does NOT exist. when you die. NOTHING HAPPENS. i assure you. so please. go out and live your life. you have no reason to be afraid of “hell”

      • JAVIER

        AS YOU NOTICED I WAS NOT ASKING YOUR OPINION, I KNOW GOD, EXISTS AND AT THIS VERY SECOND GOD KNOWS I AM WRITING YOU THIS LETTER. I KNOW THAT I AM NOT AFRAID OF HIM WHO KILLS THE BODY, I AM AFRAID OF GOD WHO CAN KILL THE BODY AND THE SOUL. YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE LESS THAN HALF A BRAIN TO THINK THAT SOME HOW, YOU ARE HERE BY SOME ACCIDENT, OR A MONKEY, OR HOW MANY KIDS IN YOUR CLASS WERE JUST BARELY COMING OUT OF THE MONKEY STATE OF EVOLUTION, OR WHAT CAME FIRST THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG?? JUSTIN THE SAD THING IS IF YOU ARE NOT OF THE LAMBS, IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MUCH I WRITE OF PLEAD, OR ARGUE WITH YOU, YOU WILL NOT HEAR THE VOICE OF THE PASTOR. PRAY AND PRAY, THAT YOU MAY HEAR THE VOICE FOR YOU AND YOU FAMILY. THIS IS NOT CAR WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISION IN LIFE, TIME AND ETERNITY, BETTER CONSIDER IT CAREFULLY. READ THE BIBLE START IN THE BOOK OF JAMES, AND WHEN YOU, PRAY AND ASK GOD TO GIVE YOU THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT YOU MAY UNDERSTAND, IT WILL BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU DO IN YOUR LIKE TIME AND ETERNITY. MAY IT BE FOR BLESSING TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. HAS ANYBODY EVER LIED TO YOU??? ARE YOU BEING LIED TO EVERY WHERE?? DO YOU WANT SOME TRUTH?? READ WHAT I ASKED YOU TO.

        • Ty

          Stop shouting. No one is listening anyway.

          No go away and let the adults talk.

        • Francesc

          “I KNOW GOD, EXISTS AND AT THIS VERY SECOND GOD KNOWS I AM WRITING YOU THIS LETTER”
          You must be much more important than a little child dying of famine in Africa, sir. Lucky you.

        • Daniel Florien

          JAVIER THAT WAS A VERY CONVINCING ARGUMENT YOU ARE RIGHT PEOPE HAVE LIED BEFORE SO I WILL ALSO ASSUME YOU ARE LYING YOURE ARGUMENT IS VERY SOUND AND THE HUGE WALL OF TEXT HAS BROUGHT ME TO MY SPIRITUAL SENSES I AM ON MY KNEES AND READY TO GIVE IT ALL TO JESUS

  • Wytwolf

    Perfect example of how much god cares for the little children:

    2 Kings
    2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

  • http://strawdog.wordpress.com/ strawdog

    Just ask Prolifers if they think that abortion is murder. And then ask them what how it should be punished …

    And see cognitive dissonance setting in :)

  • sandysays1

    Is there a site for political humor?

  • http://alphonsuspeck.wordpress.com Alphonsus

    @strawdog This guy is flakey enough that he probably *would* have an answer as to that question. Lock them up. Stone them. Ostracize them and send them into the woods.

    Makes me think. If super-size is really big, is ostracize even bigger? Ostriches are HUGE birds, after all

    I guess that only goes to prove that thinking really IS dangerous.

  • trj

    It’s an interesting question why God allows so many spontaneous abortions. I’ve never heard any believer give a good explanation for this.

    But I’m sure it’s somehow connected to us being sinful creatures. That’s the only explanation that makes sense. That, and God’s mysterious ways, of course.

    • http://njministries.org Pastor Steve

      You ask the question, why does God allow all these abortions?
      The answer is: God made man in His own image, and gave him “freewill” In His word “the bible”
      He gives us His rules. “Thou shall not kill” Now who’s choice is it to murder these babies who are made in the image of Himself…the mother of the child, the doctor?
      God is allowing man to do as he pleases until the day of judgement. Then God will judge everyone for thier deeds her on earth. Now ask yourself honestly here, do you think that a holy God is going to except a persons reason for killing a unborn baby! I think not.

      You see, no matter what or how man/society tries to justify and reason away sin (there choices in life) God holds an account for everyone.

      The most important issue in a persons life is, what side of the fence are you on? There are only TWO! God’s side or the devils side. 90% of the world today is walking hand and hand with the devils system, and the other 10% have recieved God free of salvation and is walking with God.

      The devil blinds the minds of the 90% in hopes that they won’t believe that Jesus came to earth, to die on the cross as YOUR substitution.and payment for your sin. It’s all about “Free Will” to make the choices in life. Murder or not to murder! to get saved or to believe your friends and family and NOT get saved.

      You can see what I mean by the comment made against the person who said that abortion is a Satanic ritual. The guy is right on the money!!!! it IS a Satanic ritual, but the devil has blined the minds of people who (in todays world) claim it to be a medical procedure. Or a womens right to choose…but again, what did God say: Thou shall not commit murder. So who do we believe? What the general population tells us or what God says about it.

      Just look at the changes over the last decade. Homosexuality use to be called sin. Now its called an alternative lifestyle….see my point! Satan (the devil) is drawing mankink into an even greater rebellion than ever before. And if we choose to follow the devil and his lies and deceptions then mankind is doomed to be judged as individuals for our actions while on this earth. Satan, by the killing of babies is using these means to bring about his own form of worship and a personal slap to God’s face. That’s what the spiritual war for the souls of men/women is all about. So again!
      the question is? What side are YOU on? Not you mom,dad,brother,sister, boss, etc, etc. It’s just that simple! I’ve been saved for over 20 years now and I’ve NEVER regreted making that decision to give my heart and life over to God through Jesus Christ. The world is going one way, but born-again chirstians (God’s body of believers) are going the opposite direction.

      If you are NOT a christian, I invite you to vist my website and learn more about God and His plan of salvation for YOUR life. http://njministries.org/njm/home.html

      Don’t follow the way of the world/devil, open your heart and let God (Himself )speak to you and let Him reveal the right road of life to be on.

      God bless

      Pastor Steve NJM

      • Ty

        *yawn*

        What?

        • Just paying attn

          Why are you yawning? I’m guessing you think abortion is not murder right? How is killing someone that is living, moving, and feeding not murder? Or maybe if that’s not exciting enough for you, how would have felt it someone came up to your mom, and shot at her stomach area while she was pregnant with you? Probably doesn’t matter right…cause you have breathed air out of the womb yet. Come on you’re smarter thant that. It’s murder whether you’re Christian or not.

          • Jabster

            The trolls around here really should try harder …

            • Just paying attn

              Really trolling? I just replied to something said. Just because you are against what I say doesn’t mean I’m trolling.

          • Custador

            Oh bullsh!t! How many different times can you insert a pile of crap into a single post?

            1) A little congregated bunch of cells with NO central nervous system is NOT a person. You might as well get upset about the germs you killed with Detox on your kitchen surfaces.

            2) How in the PHUK is it comparable to cause a life-threatening injury to a woman and end her pregnancy against her will versus a woman choosing a minor medical procedure to prevent her from having a child?

            You’re an idiot. Get gone, troll.

            • Just paying attn

              1) A little congregated bunch of cells with NO central nervous system is NOT a person. You might as well get upset about the germs you killed with Detox on your kitchen surfaces.

              2) How in the PHUK is it comparable to cause a life-threatening injury to a woman and end her pregnancy against her will versus a woman choosing a minor medical procedure to prevent her from having a child?
              ——————————————————————————-
              To answer your insults, and yes I said insults cause you’re barely stating facts…you are just throwing dirt. It would be interesting to see if you can actually hold a convo without acting like an irritated toddler. Now to appeal to the intellectual side of you.

              Here is the definition of fetus by the science dictionary:

              Science Dictionary
              fetus (fē’təs) Pronunciation Key
              The unborn offspring of a mammal at the later stages of its development, especially a human from eight weeks after fertilization to its birth. In a fetus, all major body organs are present.

              You see that…all major organs present…so how is that just a bunch of cells…in that case we are all just a bunch of cells. Just because the child isn’t fully developed doesn’t mean that it isn’t human. So lemme ask you something, when a child is born with no feet or is born deaf or blind…because he/she didn’t fully develop or develop correctly…they are not human. So if they should be killed it’s not murder right, they are the same as germs.

            • Francesc

              A deaf child has a functional brain.
              Some people haven’t but still, they post comments on blogs.

            • Sunny Day

              If you don’t understand the difference between a a 8 week old fetus and week 30 there’s really no helping you.

            • Custador

              Zygote. Embryo. Foetus. Learn the difference or STFU.

            • Just paying attn

              If you don’t understand the difference between a a 8 week old fetus and week 30 there’s really no helping you.

              I understand that people just want to make themselves feel better by making excuses so they dont feel guilty. If you want to have sex and have a baby, but then kill it so you dont have a new responsibility….then say so. Don’t lie and medically call murder of a child in a womb abortion. It is, what it is….murder.

            • Custador

              You’re an ignorant little ‘tard who doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about, instead making nonsense assertions in the face of the facts. What, you think that at the second of conception a perfect mini human is created? You’re a ‘tard.

            • Sunny Day

              “Don’t lie and medically call murder of a child in a womb abortion. It is, what it is….murder.”

              You are either a coward or a liar. If murder is being done, why are you not stopping it? All you have is empty rhetoric if you truly thought it was murder it would be simple for you to stop it non violently. But you don’t.

              Coward or Liar which is it.

            • Just paying attn

              You are either a coward or a liar. If murder is being done, why are you not stopping it? All you have is empty rhetoric if you truly thought it was murder it would be simple for you to stop it non violently. But you don’t.

              Coward or Liar which is it.

              Sunny what do you think I’m doing. This is called education….you’re educating me why people should abort…I’m educating you why they shouldn’t. See it’s all done non-violently. If I could fly around the world faster than a speeding bullet and stop crimes, I would. But since this isn’t a movie we educate in a non-violent way.

              So I am neither a coward nor a liar….calm down Sunny…I mean Clark Kent.

              Did you fly down the block and save those Scots from the first floor yet? Dont be a coward or a liar Sunny….save them….and dont forget the pregnant woman…we wouldn’t want the baby to die…because she feels too stressed about becoming a mother. So watch her stomach as you fly her through the window.

            • Custador

              The only thing you’re “educating” anybody about is your own ignorance, pal.

            • Sunny Day

              “Sunny what do you think I’m doing. This is called education”

              Education: that word doesn’t mean what you think it means.

              But lets go ahead and take a stab at it and cut right to the heart of the baby, er matter.

              Educate me, why is a Fetus a Person?

            • Just paying attn

              The only thing you’re “educating” anybody about is your own ignorance, pal.

              Explain to me how is something ingorant because you dont believe it? Clearly you do not understand the meaning of ignorance. But go ahead tell me how I’m actually ignorant, I’m sure it’s just because we dont have the same beliefs.

            • Nzo

              Believing in something with no evidence is your own choice. Probably, though, you do so out of ignorance of facts, science, and probability.

              You’re too busy with your “feel-good” new-age spiritualist crap to notice that all those head-in-the-cloud feelings don’t make you a good person. They don’t make you more open minded or smarter.

              There’s just something about believing in 2000 year old bronze-age fairy tales that just makes people like you pitiful.

              You don’t even understand why someone is calling you ignorant! You don’t understand your complete lack of knowledge on almost every subject-matter you weigh in on. You read passages of your book that talk about your god telling someone to massacre an entire race minus the virgins, which are to be raped, and you think your god is moral.

              How F*cking sad is that?

              You reason ignorantly.
              You argue ignorantly.
              Your beliefs have no basis in fact, therefore, you believe ignorantly.

              In conclusion, you’re a morally bankrupt, ignorant, selfish, childish, and dangerously stupid individual.

            • Sunny Day

              “Educate me, why is a Fetus a Person?”

              Crickets chirping.

              Yeah, thought so.

            • BillZBub

              According to the BIBLE, abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

              “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life.” — Exodus 21:22-23

              The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

              “And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.” — Leviticus 27:6

              Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

              “Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD.” — Numbers 3:15-16

            • Just paying attn

              Education: that word doesn’t mean what you think it means

              Education:The act or process of educating or being educated.

              So then we must define educate.

              Educate: To provide with information; inform. To bring to an understanding or acceptance. To stimulate or develop the mental or moral growth of.

              This whole time I’ve been informing, even if you all dont agree with the information. Many people didn’t agree that the earth was round, or that our planet rotated around the sun; they didn’t know the sun was the center of the universe (heliocenteric). A great majority thought the world was square, and that our universe was centered around the earth (geocentric). They didn’t agree with the truth, but in time they were proven wrong. Many of you dont agree with the information I’ve given, but that doesn’t stop it from being educating (informing). It also doesn’t stop it from being true. As for the part of educating that deals with bringing morals to the table, I’ve definitely done that also. I also know people are less likely to care in these times, so it’s not suprising that people have been so callous on this subject.

              Educate me, why is a Fetus a Person?

              Fetus: In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.
              That by the way should put a stop to all of you calling an embryo and a fetus the same thing.
              Person:The living body of a human

              The major difference between a person and a fetus is that a fetus is inside the womb. I understand why yall might feel an embryo is not human, but there is no excuse for not feeling that killing a fetus is wrong. I really have a problem with people not caring about life, and just throwing it away on a whim. It sucks to ruin your life, but it sucks even more to ruin or take someone else’s life….and that’s whats going on.

              Everybody is acting like I dont care for the mom’s, I’ve said over and over that I care for the moms and the babies. It’s amazing how many lies people have said about my comments. I know what they’re trying to do though…but I’ll leave that alone. I care for both.

            • Nzo

              As for the part of educating that deals with bringing morals to the table, I’ve definitely done that also.

              Stopped reading there

          • DarkMatter

            I don’t understand the madness to a yawn.

            • Just paying attn

              What madness, explain?

            • Sunny Day

              Just paying has a short attention span.

            • Just paying attn

              According to the BIBLE, abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

              “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life.” — Exodus 21:22-23

              Actually you’ve misinterpreted the verses, but that’s ok. In the King James Version and other versions where they speak with an ancient dialect…it is sometimes hard to understand what they are saying. But here are the same verses in NIV…i’m sure you will understand better what the verses are explaining.

              22 “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life ( Exodus 21:22-23).

              Already it says if you put the baby in danger…then you must pay a fine according to what is demanded by the family. But if you kill the baby in the womb…then you too must die. Now fortunately for us Jesus came….so because of Him…we have grace. We fortunately dont have to die for all the bad mistakes we’ve made. His coming brought Love and grace to replace the Law. We still shouldn’t try to take advantage of Jesus though.

              The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

              “And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.” — Leviticus 27:6

              Once again you have to understand what is being said. First you have to understand what the verses are instructing the people about. So lets look at the introduction of these verses….that leads up to the verse you chose.

              1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate persons to the LORD by giving equivalent values (Leviticus 27:1-2).

              God is speaking to Moses and telling him how to sort out vows of dedication…and later vows of devotion. What does that mean? Well lets see.
              Lets look at vow and see what it means. A vow is a solemn promise or pledge to perform an act or behave in a certain manner. As for dedicate, it is to set apart for a special use. Then to devote is to give or apply (one’s time, attention, or self) entirely to a particular activity, pursuit, cause, or person. So we have defined vow, dedicate, and devote…which will play key roles in understanding the passage.

              If you made a vow of dedication to God, you could redeem the person or thing by paying a certain amount of money. So if you wanted also use the person or thing you could redeem it from God. That is the basis behind all the money rates you see in Leviticus 27.

              Now as for vows of devotion….you cant get those back.
              28 ‘But nothing that a man owns and devotes to the LORD -whether man or animal or family land—may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the LORD. (Leviticus 27:28)

              When you are talking about redeeming the babies, and them only considering babies a month old…this has nothing to do with them considering babies not being real persons until they are 1 month plus. They are not saying that the young are worthless, but realistically for them to start learning about God…they had to be a certain age. Plus the mom needs to take care of the baby in the beginning anyway, before the priests can really teach baby. So alot of times, it wasn’t babies or infants that the priest help teach about God…it was kids. Meaning after the child could understand enough, walk, talk, and still not need certain things like breast milk and other amenities to have a healthy life (also back then many babies died before 1 month). So therefore in many cases the babies weren’t dedicated to God until after the child’s life was stable.

              Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD.” — Numbers 3:15-16

              This isn’t a time like ours and a country like America. In America we have great doctors and great facilities to help care for patients. Back in those times, and even in some very undeveloped countries now….infants do not make it to one month with ease. If an infant doesn’t make it to one month here we will be suprised, back then…it was sad…but an accepted reality. So taking a census after one month of birth is not alarming. Infact whats even more suprising is that they didn’t wait until a couple months after to record the babies as citizens, because of such serious health issues with young children.

              As for God not caring for babies, and not recognizing babies in the womb. I submit these verses.

              Isaiah 49: 5 And now the LORD says—
              he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
              to bring Jacob back to him
              and gather Israel to himself,
              for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
              and my God has been my strength-
              (God recognizes children being in the womb, and even having a purpose in
              the world before birth)

              Psalm 139 :13-16
              13 For you created my inmost being;
              you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
              14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
              your works are wonderful,
              I know that full well.
              15 My frame was not hidden from you
              when I was made in the secret place.
              When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
              16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
              All the days ordained for me
              were written in your book
              before one of them came to be.
              (Once again God forms you in the womb, and has a mission for you on the
              earth….before you even leave your mother).

              —-Psalm 22:9-10
              9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
              you made me trust in you
              even at my mother’s breast.
              10 From birth I was cast upon you;
              from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
              (Does that sound like God doesn’t care about anything in the womb?)

              Jeremiah 1:4-5
              4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
              5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
              before you were born I set you apart;
              I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
              (This verse says it all…even in the womb God cared, knew, and set us apart)

              Luke 1:41-42, 44
              41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
              42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!

              44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.
              (The baby in womb is responding to people outside, the baby is alive)

              ******So if someone is alive and then you take their life, what is that called?*****

              Dont tell me yall never realised that babies move in there mother’s womb.

            • Nzo

              Oh, you want to quote bible verses?

              Pay attention to this.

              “Let his days be few; let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children wander about and beg; and let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. Let the creditor seize all that he has; and let strangers plunder the product of his labor. Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children.”

              Psalm 109:8-12

              Sounds like your god cares.

              “…as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, ‘Go up, you baldhead; go up you baldhead!’ When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.”

              2 Kings 2:22-24

              Murder by mauling, looks like someone loves you!

              “If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.’”

              Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

              Miscarriage… i.e. your god’s version of abortion! Nice guy right there.

              Anyway, quoting bible verses to prove a point is like grabbing a hot coal to throw at your enemy, it burns you much more than it burns your enemy… if you even manage to hit.

              Also, you get your morality from this guy? You christians are a dangerous group of people!

            • JohnMWhite

              Ok, I could point out that it’s hardly fair to pick the translation that happens to suit you (and was, in fact, written specifically to squeeze certain interpretations into key scriptural passages, which is hardly a new thing with the bible), or I could refute things point by point, but I doubt we’d get anywhere with that. However, I do have to ask a question. When you say this:

              “When you are talking about redeeming the babies, and them only considering babies a month old…this has nothing to do with them considering babies not being real persons until they are 1 month plus. They are not saying that the young are worthless, but realistically for them to start learning about God…they had to be a certain age. Plus the mom needs to take care of the baby in the beginning anyway, before the priests can really teach baby.”

              What, exactly, do you think a month old infant can be taught?

            • Just paying attn

              Whats up people? I hope all of you are doing fine, if not I hope good favor is about to come over your life soon. Sorry I haven’t responded to anything in awhile but computer time has been kinda hard to find lately. But I’mma get some responses done today. Again though, I hope you all are doing well.

            • Sunny Day

              Thanks for the heads up about the deluge of insipidity headed our way.

            • Just paying attn

              Whats up Nzo?….I’m going to reply to Bible verse email in two parts…simply because the 2 Kings 2:23-24 will be more detailed since it requires more explaination. The other two passages though I will review in this response.

              “Let his days be few; let another take his office. Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children wander about and beg; and let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. Let the creditor seize all that he has; and let strangers plunder the product of his labor. Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children.”

              Psalm 109:8-12

              Sounds like your god cares.

              He actually does care, and actually He cares more about us than we even do about ourselves. So in this passage it is very important to realize this is not God talking, this a person talking to God. This person is desperate for God’s intervention at this time. Simply because the enemies of this person is falsely accusing and fighting against him/her. So since this person feels that they walk in peace and is a true believer in God….they are asking for God’s help in the situation. Yea the prayer sounds drastic…but we all know that everyone doesn’t always pray happiness on their enemies. They did it even less before Jesus came….and this was wayyyy before Jesus came. So this isn’t God not caring, this is a person’s prayer against their enemies. The Bible just doesn’t show what God says, it also gives you a glimpse into the sort of relationships that other types of people have with God. What type are you?

              “If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.’”

              Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

              Miscarriage… i.e. your god’s version of abortion! Nice guy right there.

              No miscarriage is not God’s version of abortion….simply put not every baby will not be born as planned…and that is for various reasons. But what actually amazes me about this passage is that you Nzo of all people….didn’t really research it before you questioned God about it. Because this passage isn’t even about miscarriages….take a closer look…it is a simile/a metaphor….describing something by relation and comparison…..but what? If you look again you can see it compares the life a man that pretty much has everything to the life of a still born baby. The man that has everything should be a dead lock for victory right? Nope. Because it doesn’t matter how many riches and things you have if you are not happy and you don’t have peace. I mean think about it….what’s the point of having everything when it doesn’t bring you any joy? No need in having a million dollars, nice cars, and fridge full of food….if you cant enjoy the things you buy, delight in driving the car, or savor the food you have. So the passage is telling you that it is better for you to have been a still born baby than to have had all you wanted and never be happy. Because atleast the baby had rest and peace….you had everything and never even experienced peace….so the dead born baby had it better than you.

              Also, you get your morality from this guy? You christians are a dangerous group of people!

              Dude do I sound dangerous to you, really after I explained what the verses truly meant you think that is actually bad morality?

            • Just paying attn

              Time for part 2 of the verse breakdown. I gave this one it’s own space because it is an often confused verse….only for one simple reason. That is because most of us cant read Hebrew….and this verse is one of those where the meaning got lost in translation.

              “…as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, ‘Go up, you baldhead; go up you baldhead!’ When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.”

              2 Kings 2:22-24

              Murder by mauling, looks like someone loves you!

              The most important thing to realize here is that these children aren’t actually little children. For some reason when the person who was translating it from the Hebrew Bible did the translation…he or she forgot to check the usage of the word. The Hebrew words translated here were (nearim kertannim)…from the Hebrew base words naar and katon. Naar whenever used signifies a young man…. meaning late teens all the way up to their 30s. Katon is signifying young in opposition to old…meaning that they were defiant. So because of a mistake of the translator not being very diligent…we are thinking that prophet of God is being mocked by some kids that just came from Chuckie Cheese or ToysRus. But that is not what happened….these are young men….young defiant men….who are atleast in the teens….were getting ready to start problems.

              So now we know that they are older….then next thing to realize is that their is a large crowd of them….atleast 42….cause remember the bears mauled atleast 42. But the verse never said that the bears mauled them all, so a group of atleast 42 young men is coming at you….that dont really like you…and are screaming and shouting jeers at you…isn’t really an ideal situation of comfort.

              Oh and another thing they are from Bethel….where they worship idols and knowingly oppose God. They especially worship one of two “special” golden calves. So now they heard one of the prohets(Elijah) just got taken to heaven (which they probably don’t believe he did)….and they “happen” to bump into another prophet(Elisha) of God who is the best friend of the prophet that just got taken to heaven (Elijah). So what do you think this crowd of 42 or more (mob) young men who hate God is prepared to do when they see a prophet of God? They are not like yall….they’ve actually heard and some maybe even seen miracles….but they choose knowingly to oppose God. So what do you think they are going to do….shake the prophet’s hand?

              So once Elisha notices what is going on and who he is dealing with, he calls a curse on them. Now if you are in mob of 42 or more and two bears come out….what you think you are going to do….especially after starting to see your buddies getting mauled? Exactly….time to disperse. See God loves everyone….but He cannot allow people that actually follow Him to be harmed unless…He is going to use the situation to show How much in control He actually is. But alot of the times if you try to harm a person that is walking close to God….it’s not going to end up nice for you.

              See people that dont believe in God….loves when God “doesn’t show himself” they love it when they try to harm true followers of God and think that nothing is going to happen. Go ahead keep playing, God protects His true followers. Yes God is love….but love also protects….remember that.

              By the way if you dont actually think that the original Hebrew text is talking about young men, and you think they are talking about little children….research it. You will see, truth is truth no matter how you look at it.

            • Just paying attn

              Ok, I could point out that it’s hardly fair to pick the translation that happens to suit you (and was, in fact, written specifically to squeeze certain interpretations into key scriptural passages, which is hardly a new thing with the bible), or I could refute things point by point, but I doubt we’d get anywhere with that.

              Well how is it fair that he choose that translation and not the others then?

              But that doesn’t really matter, I just choose a translation that was more clear and concise with modern terminology in it. But if we really want the clearest picture…we should always go back to the original. Too bad the original text is in Hebrew and Greek…but hey a little extra step shouldn’t be that bad…right :D

              However, I do have to ask a question. When you say this:

              “When you are talking about redeeming the babies, and them only considering babies a month old…this has nothing to do with them considering babies not being real persons until they are 1 month plus. They are not saying that the young are worthless, but realistically for them to start learning about God…they had to be a certain age. Plus the mom needs to take care of the baby in the beginning anyway, before the priests can really teach baby.”

              What, exactly, do you think a month old infant can be taught?

              Well it’s actually amazing all the things you can teach a baby….painting, music, reading….etc. Not saying that their first month is going to be super special but by 5 months you’ll be amazed. By the way God has special connections with children, and a special place in His heart for them. So there is always importance placed on children no matter the age. If you want some verses….I can show you some.

              My question is, what is this big dismissal movement against babies and kids on this site? Do you all hate kids…is that aethiest thing….cant be, I cant believe all aetheist think that way. Were all you guys born at 12 yrs old or something….none of you were new borns out of the womb? It seems like you all have a thing against kids…..even to point of calling them parasites.

            • Nzo

              Too bad the original text is in Hebrew and Greek…

              You’re completely moronic if you think today’s bible looks anything like any “original” texts, which ultimately were 40 different works crammed together and edited somewhat to try and make a coherent and consistent text for a “one true” religion.

              You DID know that the “original” texts don’t actually exist anymore, right? OHH sure you did… you’re smart enough for that! /sarcasm

            • Sunny Day

              Whoops I thought the deluge of stupid would have been longer. He must have gotten kicked off the library computer for playing with himself, again.

            • Yoav

              I actually can read the hebrew and I don’t think your interpretation of them being older hold much water but even if it does are you trying to say that if they are in their 20′s then execution by bear is an appropriate punishment for the crime of mocking someone? So in your world destroying a ball of cells with no central nervous system is a horrible crime but killing (in a rather gruesome way I may add) 42 people to make the point that you can is a just and moral act of a loving god.

            • Just paying attn

              Whoops I thought the deluge of stupid would have been longer. He must have gotten kicked off the library computer for playing with himself, again.

              Well if you call stupid backed up by the words of the original text then what can I say to you. If you call stupid disproving the argument…then what can I say to you. Now maybe your library lets you in at 2am or weird hours at night or morning….but unfortunately mines doesnt. I am happy that yours do. So since I work crazy hours and spend time with my kids, usually my free time is weird hours. Sooooo library computer I think not…but nice try. As for playing with myself…I’ve already said I have a wife….no need for me….trust that. As for you….that sticky keyboard needs to be cleaned son ;)

              At any rate I hope the rest of your Sunday is wonderful (seriously I do).

            • Custador

              Please don’t feed the troll, people.

          • Kodie

            I don’t know what it feels like to not be born. If someone is not born, they don’t know what they would have missed and are ok. You can’t ask an adult how they would feel if their mother was shot in the stomach — I mean, how violent and irrelevant to the topic, but you are high-strung — because most people in that position, hypothetically, are concerned for their mother! What does the mother want, will she live, who forcibly terminated her pregnancy against her wishes and injured her, who would do something like that to my mother???

            Likewise, in abortion cases, where is your concern for the mother? An unborn doesn’t know what it’s like to be born, they don’t know when they are snuffed out! They can’t say “I wish I could have been born instead,” and for the life of me, I can’t figure out why you’re so hot on that they should be. Apparently, they are all being raised by tv anyway. That’s if they’re not living with parents who abuse them or retain them in the cycle of poverty and lack of education. Some people do not want children or lack the means to care for them, and abortion is legal because it is not murder! Durr~! All those mothers who would otherwise be shot in the stomach area, that your only concern is the unborn, what about the mother, you pile of shIt.

            • Siberia

              How is killing someone that is living, moving, and feeding not murder?

              I’m glad you are a vegetarian. Or better yet, you don’t feed at all, as plants are as alive as a fetus.

              Or maybe if that’s not exciting enough for you, how would have felt it someone came up to your mom, and shot at her stomach area while she was pregnant with you?

              If my mother was shot in the stomach it’d be a tragedy because the woman who would be my mother would have died or at least severely injured, not because fetus!me died. My mother lost a pregnancy before she conceived me. To you, your god murdered my sibling.

              (Except for the fact he doesn’t exist and that killing a fetus isn’t murder.)

              Probably doesn’t matter right…cause you have breathed air out of the womb yet

              Wouldn’t matter because of not!me, would matter because of the woman that is my mother. I’d gladly give my life for hers, anytime, no questions asked.

            • Just paying attn

              I do care for the mother, but that’s not the topic here. We are talking about abortion. So I’m staying on topic….of course people should care about mothers…and most people do. So that is not even an issue. If I care about a child in the womb, how much more do you think I would care about the mother. Any TRUE Christian…knows that the most important thing about Christ is love. I’m not talking about people who just are religious(they just follow customs), I’m talking about a friendship with Christ. We know that it’s all about love. So yes I care about the mother, but I also care about the baby. In MOST cases this can be a win-win situation. Think about it, most times a baby is born the mom lives too. Most times. But for the times that the mom will die, then family needs to choose who will live.

              The problem is that most times people abort is cause they got all hot and ready and didn’t think about the consequences. Almost all the times it’s like that, it’s few exceptions when it is a different situation; possibly death of the mother, rape, etc. But I know you know that most times people get abortions is because they got horny and couldn’t control themselves, and now they dont want the “burden” of a child. They are all these excuses for abortion, and only few cases where abortion is actually warranted.

              We all lose control sometimes, but why make the child pay for it?

              P.s. alot of things were legal that weren’t right. Women couldn’t vote, children got worked like slaves during the industrial revolution, apartheid, slavery, and on and on. Just cause it’s legal, doesn’t make it right.

            • Custador

              You couldn’t give a damn about the mother or you wouldn’t have compared her choice to have a termination with somebody else PUTTING A BULLET IN HER STOMACH.

            • DarkMatter

              Is Just paying attn high strung?

            • Kodie

              You’re a judgmental piece of shIt. I have already had this argument and you are just like everyone else, you think you have new arguments, and you are mistaken. You think you are airtight, and your god means anything. He doesn’t exist. Scientifically, we have concluded that a fetus is not a baby, it is not a person, and your argument can go phux itself. Sorry, I am ill, I do not have the energy to argue how ignorant you are, and shouldn’t have to. Go find any of the other abortion topics and read up, if you are in fact PAYING ATTENTION.

            • Yoav

              I would have believed you more if the so called pro-life crowd would have also pushing proper sex ed and contraceptives, which is the best way to reduce abortion rates. banning abortion won’t stop it but would just push women to use illegal and unsafe abortion to terminate unwanted pregnancies.

            • Just paying attn

              I’m glad you are a vegetarian. Or better yet, you don’t feed at all, as plants are as alive as a fetus.

              I clearly said someone (meaning person), not something…but I respect your effort. So the answer is yes, it still is killingsomeone.

              If my mother was shot in the stomach it’d be a tragedy because the woman who would be my mother would have died or at least severely injured, not because fetus!me died. My mother lost a pregnancy before she conceived me. To you, your god murdered my sibling.

              (Except for the fact he doesn’t exist and that killing a fetus isn’t murder.)

              I’m trying to figure out why both cant be a tragedy…the death of the mom and the death of the child. Why do you all only care about one? The definition of fetus by the science dictionary…which I posted twice…clearly says that it has human organs. So why cant you guys…care for both?
              As for God allowing things…He gives us freewill…we do what we want and we answer for our actions. You cant get mad at God because some people would prefer to follow devilish ways.

              Wouldn’t matter because of not!me, would matter because of the woman that is my mother. I’d gladly give my life for hers, anytime, no questions asked.

              I’m glad you have such character, I would do the same also…what confuses me though is that you which clearly understands the value of life…would block an unborn child’s theirs.

            • Siberia

              I clearly said someone (meaning person), not something…but I respect your effort. So the answer is yes, it still is killingsomeone.

              Except a cow or a chicken has very much more cognitive value than a fetus. A cow thinks, breathes, feeds, feels pain, suffers (quite a bit!) – an embryo not so much.

              I’m trying to figure out why both cant be a tragedy…the death of the mom and the death of the child. Why do you all only care about one? The definition of fetus by the science dictionary…which I posted twice…clearly says that it has human organs. So why cant you guys…care for both?

              First; embryos are not foeti; and most abortions are of embryos. Embryos do not have a central nervous system. They feel nothing. They can’t survive. Having human organs means diddly squat if the thing can’t think or feel. Being a person is more than just having the right bunch of cells.

              Abortion of foeti, on the other hand, is usually done because it can’t survive. You seem to think women go around aborting late-term foeti nilly willy. That doesn’t happen. A fetus without a brain is no more human than a bunch of discarded tissue, but you’d rather the woman risk herself needlessly anyway, to have a child that wouldn’t survive past day one (or worse, to die trying to push it out).

              You care more about potential not-humans than living, breathing things. We dig that. If there was a way every fetus could be saved as well as every woman, that’d be great (except for the overpopulation… seriously), but there isn’t. I’d rather save a living, breathing, thinking, feeling animal over a potential what-if.

              As for God allowing things…He gives us freewill…we do what we want and we answer for our actions. You cant get mad at God because some people would prefer to follow devilish ways.

              I can’t get mad at God because God doesn’t exist. But I’ll not you implying that my mother spontaneously miscarried (my very christian mother) because she was oh-so-evil and corrupt. She miscarried because she was worrying herself sick about her adopted child’s fate, by the way. Very devilish, I know.

            • Just paying attn

              Except a cow or a chicken has very much more cognitive value than a fetus. A cow thinks, breathes, feeds, feels pain, suffers (quite a bit!) – an embryo not so much.

              We are talking about humans, if this was an animal forum then we’d be talking about animals. If this was a car forum…then cars and so on. But this is an abortion forum…so lets stay on subject. Killing babies is wrong, unless the mother will be seriously ill or die…then the baby should be had. If it isn’t then a baby just died for no reason, it didn’t even get a chance to experience the outside world. Just the world inside of his/her mom. By the way look up partial birth abortion; you know the one where the baby is stabbed in the skull, after being drug out by the legs. Clearly you think all abortions are being done early, painless, and in the 1st trimester.

              First; embryos are not foeti; and most abortions are of embryos. Embryos do not have a central nervous system. They feel nothing. They can’t survive. Having human organs means diddly squat if the thing can’t think or feel. Being a person is more than just having the right bunch of cells.

              As of now you’re right, most abortions are earlier. But do you know when abortions became legal, it was almost unheard of that you would have a late abortion. Now we are to the point where you can have an abortion in any trimester (1,2,or 3). The trend is alarming…soon we’ll be ok with 3rd trimester abortions…we kinda already are. Wonder if that’s a coincedence?
              So what do you think of partial birth abortions and 3rd trimester abortions?(dont forget to answer that question…I want to hear where your mind is at).

              You care more about potential not-humans than living, breathing things. We dig that. If there was a way every fetus could be saved as well as every woman, that’d be great (except for the overpopulation… seriously), but there isn’t. I’d rather save a living, breathing, thinking, feeling animal over a potential what-if.

              No, I’ve clearly said that I care about both…you can check some of my previous post in here. I really do want both to the live. Most times they can. Like I said I support abortion if the mom is going to die, but kill the baby if it’s an incovenience to your “lifestyle”….that’s unacceptable. That’s like me shooting one of my teachers because they give me too much homework…and I cant party the same anymore. Killed because they are an inconvenience to me.

              I can’t get mad at God because God doesn’t exist. But I’ll not you implying that my mother spontaneously miscarried (my very christian mother) because she was oh-so-evil and corrupt. She miscarried because she was worrying herself sick about her adopted child’s fate, by the way. Very devilish, I know.

              Sigh…you misunderstood. Your mom isn’t the one that followed the devilish ways. The person that walked up and shot her did(from the example I used the other day). Unfortunately as human our actions affect each other…when we kill, hurt, and harm people it doesn’t just affect the individual…clearly. Just like if there is a bad driver on the road, that driver is a hazard to all…so is a person that is lead by evil ways. There actions affect all.

              As for your personal story, first of all I am sorry I really am. I’m really tired of death at this point in my life. So before I ask you more about your mom, sit down and have a heart to heart with her…and we’ll talk about what happened. Unfortunately bad things happen, but we have to examine what happened before we set a conclusion. So please to talk her, I’m serious I want to know what happened. I’ll even give you my email so that people dont have to know your business.

        • Sunny Day

          “Oh bullsh!t! How many different times can you insert a pile of crap into a single post?”

          Please don’t dare the stupid theist.

          • Custador

            Yeah, didn’t think of that… *ulp*

            • Sunny Day

              See! I knew it. I just knew it.

          • Just paying attn

            Wow, brilliant…do you usually win debates with pointless responses. Think about what you said? You offered no facts you just yelled….which is fine in a yelling contest. But you gotta find another poster for that competition. Anyway though, I’m sure your next post will be more impressive, I know thats not all you got. So I await a good reply.

            • Kodie

              If you think the sky is falling, and we are all in dire need of being saved, I think you are wrong. Your god is letting things go the way they are. You are just tearing your hair out (if you’re not already bald) worried that everyone is doing it wrong except you. That sounds like a mental disorder.

            • Sunny Day

              He’s under the horrible impression that we see him as a competitor and we’re trying to “win”.

              No. We baiting morons is always entertaining.

      • DarkMatter

        You don’t bring justice without mentioning about the 3rd side in the bible.

      • trj

        Steve, my question was why God allows so many spontaneous abortions – ie. unprovoked abortions that are not caused by any human intervention. Estimates say that up to half of all conceptions result in a spontaneous abortion, usually within a few weeks.

        Why does God allow this?

        I’ll just take a wild guess here that you’ll say something about us being guilty of these abortions anyway because Adam and Eve brought about Original Sin. That never gets old.

        Also: A satanic ritual? Abortions are a ritual to please Satan? Get over yourself.

  • Barry

    “Now that’s some loaded language. He’s trying to make abortion look like a satanic religion, when really it’s just a medical procedure.”

    Medical procedures to some, murder to others. Kevorkian was simply providing a medical procedure as well in his own mind, though others disagreed.

    The guy seems crazy for sure, but to call it simply a medical procedure is direct assumption of the right to choice. It would be the same as someone stopping a beating of a slave, and the owner saying he was only “fixing” his “equipment”. The logic is bit circular.

  • Jonathon

    Ahhh, Satanism. The old canard, the red herring. Nothing scares the $hit out of the fundies like Old Nick.

    I have yet to see any police department declare an emergency or a problem with “Satanism” or “Satanists”. Quite honestly, I think that the whole concept is simply a figment of the imagination of the fundies. I mean, who loves Satan more than a fundamentalist? What a useful scapegoat he is!

    Really, the only people who devoutly believe in Satan are fundamentalists. So, in an odd way, it is THEY who are the Satanists.

  • Jonathon

    Barry, abortion is a medical procedure, plain and simple. You can play semantics all you want, but it won’t change anything.

    Your slave analogy is false on its premise. Ditto for the shot against Dr. Kervorkian.

    Abortion is not murder. An embryo has no legal standing.

    All this concern about the “sanctity of life”. Funny, but it seems like anti-abortionists are only concerned about the life of the fetus until birth, and care little for the life of the child afterwards.

  • http://thebeattitude.com theBEattitude

    Daniel–
    I knew you’d enjoy that article. I couldn’t believe it when I stumbled onto it.

    I’m absolutely amazed that these obviously insane practices are condoned by the Catholic church. Of course the Bible backs them up when Jesus cured a boy’s seizures by casting out demons. (Matthew 17:15-21)

    Today we use antiepileptic drugs to cast out demons.

    • JAVIER

      WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE GET YOUR BRAINS. LETS PUT YOUR CHILDREN IN FRONT OF THE TV, FOR SOME YEARS AND SHOW THEM LET’S SAY 100,000 MURDERS WHAT EFFECT WILL THAT HAVE ON THEM?? WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY WILL DO ?? WHO DO YOU THINK THEY WILL MURDER FIRST?? PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR CHILDREN KEEP AN EYE ON YOUR CHILDREN, THEY ARE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, IF YOU DO NOT CORRECT THEM THEY WILL, NOT ONLY TURN AGAINST YOU, AND THEN ALL OF SOCIETY AND THEN YOU HAVE NATION THAT IS WORTHLESS, BECAUSE THE CHILDREN ARE THE FUTURE, ARE ROTTEN. BECAUSE WE THOUGHT ALL THAT WAS ON TV, AND VIDEO GAMES WAS COOL,

      • LRA

        LOGIC FAIL!!! (plus, quit SCREAMING!)

      • Custador

        Top left of your keyboard, there’s a button marked “caps lock”. Push it until a little light at the top right of your keyboard (also marked “caps lock”) turns off. Then type your message again in regular type – because nobody wants to read fundie forum yelling.

      • Sunny Day

        Well as long as we don’t fill their heads with the faerie tales of god and jesus and make sure they know the difference between fantasy and reality playing and “murdering” each other in video games wont have much effect upon them.

        • Just paying attn

          Well the “fairy tales” of God and Jesus are right up there with the fairy tales of “government not being owned by lobbyist money”, “abortion not being murder”, and “raising kids by tv and video games being the same as parenting.” Are you telling me that pop culture has no effect on kids? Pop(ular) culture is aimed at children, infact if you look at pop culture you can easily see why children talk and dress the way they do. It also influences what kinds of things children think are “cool.” Children are easily molded…and the leaders and powerful members of society know that.

          So to say that kids aren’t influenced by things like Harry Potter is ignorant. After the see movies and songs they like….they want school supplies, clothes, and toys with their favorite characters on them. They even say the things and act out scenes in movies sometimes. They get Harry Potter wands and say magic spells…dont act like you dont know. Plus they get their costumes at halloween…come on people stop acting infantile like you dont see it.

          Note: Some of you please stop just writing responses to get an lol, this is a grown up conversation right?

          • Custador

            Show stopper. You’re really very stupid.

            • Just paying attn

              Haha, you’re so funny. I bet that’s all you do. You follow the crowd then hurl insults without having to prove anything. Stop with the infantile insults, they are really not doing anything to me…but making me laugh.

              Anyway though I am stopping the show aren’t I. Back to the main point just because our points conflict doesn’t mean that you are stupid or that I am stupid. But I’m sure you knew that didn’t you, smart guy :D

          • Sunny Day

            [Well the “fairy tales” of God and Jesus are right up there with the fairy tales of “government not being owned by lobbyist money”, “abortion not being murder”, and “raising kids by tv and video games being the same as parenting.” ]

            I can pick up the phone and call my government and talk to a person. God not so much, a fetus is not a person, your analogy fails.

            [Are you telling me that pop culture has no effect on kids? Pop(ular) culture is aimed at children, infact if you look at pop culture you can easily see why children talk and dress the way they do. It also influences what kinds of things children think are “cool.” Children are easily molded…and the leaders and powerful members of society know that.]

            Pop culture is aimed at people. You are free to shield your children however you want to raise them within the bounds of law. I’m aware of no laws that require your children to be exposed to “pop culture”

            [So to say that kids aren’t influenced by things like Harry Potter is ignorant. After the see movies and songs they like….they want school supplies, clothes, and toys with their favorite characters on them. They even say the things and act out scenes in movies sometimes. They get Harry Potter wands and say magic spells…dont act like you dont know. Plus they get their costumes at halloween…come on people stop acting infantile like you dont see it.]

            Well you could always lock your kids away and only feed them your versions of the Jesus Farie Tales and Make-Believe. Plenty of other stupid fundies just like you already do that.

            [Note: Some of you please stop just writing responses to get an lol, this is a grown up conversation right?]

            You just let us know when the grown-ups stop by and have something to say.

            • Just paying attn

              Now this is an intelligent reply, I like it already.
              ———————————————
              I can pick up the phone and call my government and talk to a person. God not so much, a fetus is not a person, your analogy fails.

              R: Yes you can, but you dont need a phone to contact God. So if you’re stranded and out of range…you cell wont work in the first place. But no matter when you are, you can contact God. Now the problem with most of us is that we can’t hear Him (we have too many things in between us and God). So luckily for us, we have the Bible to guide us along. So if you talk to God and you dont hear, that just means we are too seperated from Him. So usually He sends His answer in a different way. You should try it, if you ask seriously with intent…bet you get answer…one way of the other.

              R: As for the fetus response:
              Science Dictionary
              fetus (fē’təs) Pronunciation Key
              The unborn offspring of a mammal at the later stages of its development, especially a human from eight weeks after fertilization to its birth. In a fetus, all major body organs are present.

              All major organs are present….you do understand what that means right?
              ———————————————————
              Pop culture is aimed at people. You are free to shield your children however you want to raise them within the bounds of law. I’m aware of no laws that require your children to be exposed to “pop culture”

              R: Well of course you dont have to let them do anything. But you also want your kid not to be ostracized…you want them to be able to play with their friends and have a common ground. Who wants their kids to not watch any tv, play any video games, or listen to music. I love tv, video games, and music….but some of the stuff that’s produced is clearly detrimental to the moral hygiene of our society (kids and adults alike). Look at yall, some of you probably coming from watching porn now, atleast wash your sticky hands men…lol. Just kidding.
              _____________________________________________

              Well you could always lock your kids away and only feed them your versions of the Jesus Farie Tales and Make-Believe. Plenty of other stupid fundies just like you already do that.

              R: Nope I expose my kids to alot, they got video games…listen to the radio…and watch movies. But yes I raise them on God and morals, but really is that bad compared to raising them on sluttish, drunken, violent, angry ideals that pop culture pushes. As much as yall dont want me to be right, pretty much every popular media pushes those moral breaking idealogies. So I only let them experience those things while explaining the true way to treat people and live.
              _______________________________

              You just let us know when the grown-ups stop by and have something to say.

              R: I’m sure you can tell when the grown-ups stop by. Just look at the caliber of their responses. Some people yell, some people just insult, and some respond with actual class. You tell me who is grown, most of your peers that are responding need to step it up and grow up. All they are doing is hurling factless insults.

            • Sunny Day

              “R: Yes you can..”

              Your god myth is just like every other god myth. You cant hear Thor because there is too many things between you and him. Thor is there listening and replying back, you just can’t hear him.
              _____________
              “All major organs are present….you do understand what that means right?”

              There are no issues when we induce labor at 8 weeks, right? A seedling is exactly the same as a tree, right? A blueprint is exactly the same as a House, right?
              ———————————————————
              “R: ….but some of the stuff that’s produced is clearly detrimental to the moral hygiene of our society (kids and adults alike). ”

              Sorry, I and others are not to blame for your poor parenting skills. The answer is to improve your skills and your relationship with your child, not to force everyone else to parent their kids to the same inept way you parent yours.
              You are free to not purchase for your children the entertainment to which you find objectionable.
              ____________________________________________

              “R: So I only let them experience those things while explaining the true way to treat people and live.”

              That’s where it stops. Feel free to raise your kids in whatever wacky beliefs you want. Its stops where you start trying to make me live that way too.
              _____________________________

              “R: All they are doing is hurling factless insults.”

              That can be the response when you start throwing factless assertions around with wild abandon like you do.

          • Kodie

            You know what is cool? When all your friends in grade school have a Harry Potter backpack so you want to get one too, because everyone else has one, and you read all the books because they’re cool (I’ve heard from people that they are interesting, etc). Even as a young adult, a lot of the tie-in accessories can seem “cool,” like those awful jelly beans and other junk.

            You know what is not cool? If you think Harry Potter is a real person and that you could cast spells if you dress enough like him and have all the beads and wands and material likeness, and you have nothing else about your personality that anyone can find. I.e., if you are unable to distinguish a fun book and some games/toys you like from reality, you are not going to be hot with the ladies.

            So, yeah, pop culture is fun if nobody internalizes any of it as more real than reality. Including that bible and that Jesus, if you want to know the truth.

            • Just paying attn

              Agreed. That happens when parents let their kids get raised by tv, games, and music unattended. A kid doesn’t know better. He might think that a magic wand and witch spells are cool, until he gets clowned and joked on.

              As for the Bible and Jesus, even if you dont believe in God…you have to admit that it teaches you to live a more caring and loving life (if the person actually listens to the words in Bible). So at the very minimum you have a person that is contributing positively to society.

              But as you might guess I do believe that God is real, very real.

            • Kodie

              Captain Kangaroo taught me to live a more caring and loving life. And also Bob Keeshan was a real person. Mister Rogers was probably a better example, it’s all about using your imagination, and knowing what is real and what is imaginary. You are a cynical Christian, you think everyone is raising their children wrong, so don’t go outside anymore. Stay the hell away from Walmart.

            • Yoav

              As for the Bible and Jesus, even if you don’t believe in God…you have to admit that it teaches you to live a more caring and loving life (if the person actually listens to the words in Bible). So at the very minimum you have a person that is contributing positively to society.
              Have you actually read the Fuc*ing buybull? Including the parts that are hidden by the touchy feelly version of fundies. You know the ones with the genocides, rapes, slavery etc. all preformed or at the very least condoned by your loving god.

            • Bill

              “As for the Bible and Jesus, even if you dont believe in God…you have to admit that it teaches you to live a more caring and loving life (if the person actually listens to the words in Bible). So at the very minimum you have a person that is contributing positively to society.”

              Yeah that whole “drowning all people on earth except a few” thing was supper “caring and loving.”

            • Francesc

              “He might think that a crucifix and bible quotes are cool, until he gets clowned and joked on”
              There, fixed for you.

            • Just paying attn

              Have you actually read the Fuc*ing buybull? Including the parts that are hidden by the touchy feelly version of fundies. You know the ones with the genocides, rapes, slavery etc. all preformed or at the very least condoned by your loving god.

              R: Show me where God condones that. Only people condone those activities….and then those fakes claim God after. That’s just like me walking up to a random woman and rapping her, then saying I did it for Yoav. That doesn’t mean you condone it, does it?

              I read the Bible everyday, the only buybull I see…is the news. They even conflict each other (even though the reporting is supposed to be objective and true).
              Truth doesn’t conflict truth.

            • DarkMatter

              “Truth doesn’t conflict truth.”
              Are you affirming yourself?

            • Just paying attn

              “He might think that a crucifix and bible quotes are cool, until he gets clowned and joked on”
              There, fixed for you.

              R: Haha, that wasn’t half-bad. But as for the seriousness of matter the Bible is the better choice. For example if a kid gets joked on because he studies hard, and takes his books home….even the jokes wont stop him from being sucessful. But if you’re wearing a star wars outfit working on your light saber skills, and thinking that one day you will be a jedi…good luck at getting that jedi job offer.

              The same way if I walk around with my Bible (and actually study and follow it) minus the crucifix(thats just a symbol…the Bible holds real power). Even if I get joked on I will still grow to be the person I was born to be, and get closer to living in truth.

            • DarkMatter

              “Truth doesn’t conflict truth.”
              So, you are not a truth. You try wrongly with offence here, unnecessarily.

            • Kodie

              School books make you smart. If you believe in god and read your bible, you are not closer to living in truth. You are just a guy with a favorite book which is a fantasy that he believes is real.

            • Yoav

              R: Show me where God condones that. Only people condone those activities….and then those fakes claim God after. That’s just like me walking up to a random woman and rapping her, then saying I did it for Yoav. That doesn’t mean you condone it, does it?
              In your book that god character order the isrealites to murder everyone when they take over a city except for young unmarried women which they are allowed to take as sex slaves.
              David have a census; god murders 70000 other people for his supposed sin. And let’s not forget the big one where your god throw a tantrum and drown every man, woman child and animal on the planet.
              It’s all there in the book you claim should be our beacon toward moral life, and yes we all heard the crap about how god got nicer in the sequel but it doesn’t hold any water.

          • Roger

            Holy f*ckballs. Does this twit think that Harry Potter will be the downfall of western civilization?

            • Just paying attn

              No clearly not, but what will be the downfall of western civilization or any other civilization….is letting pop culture raise your children without any supervision. You already know why pop culture is popular…it’s because it employs all the things that catches our attention. Sex, violence, etc….which can seriously mold a child’s mind if you are not teaching him the difference between movies and reality. Have you not noticed the decline in education, the increase in lazyness, increase in divorces, more sexual crime, more sexual taboos being public, more children having children, people literally dont care about people’s lives anymore. A person would literally kill someone over road rage. We have been desensitized to living correctly.

              Does this mean that none of these things never happened before? Of course they happened before, but not at this magnitude. We are more comfortable with doing these acts because we have been raised in an era which condones all these things, and we literally look down at self-control. We’ve been raised to accept this media pushed standard as a normal lifestyle.

              Does marriage even mean anything any more, does lying even count as something wrong….just look at the ever bulging weight of America…you think that comes from hard work and focus. Look at the commercials we are literally increasing our intake of food at an enormous rate. We are lead to believe that all pleasure and no control is ok. Look at where thats getting us, we are in a decline…you better pay attention to the country around you. Nothing is considered wrong anymore, except believing in God. You think about that, like the most dangerous thing in the world is having faith in Christ. You think you weren’t brainwashed into that…lol.

            • Roger

              Dude, lay off the crack, stop wearing the tinfoil hat, and get off the cross.

            • Kodie

              Duuuuuude! I think we’re gonna need a bigger handbasket!

            • Daniel Florien

              Nothing is considered wrong anymore, except believing in God.

              That’s one of the most ignorant statements I’ve read in a long time. Congratulations!

              Well guys, I guess murder & rape is fine now — just as long as you don’t believe in God! No one believes in God anymore, except for the majority of the US population!

              durrrr hurrrr

            • Francesc

              “if you are not teaching him the difference between movies and reality”
              I supose your way to teach them is far better. You are explaining them: “hey, Santa isn’t real, but Jack Frost is”. The poor kids don’t understand the differences between TLoR and the Bible, at least the first one has better morals in it.

            • Sunny Day

              “No clearly not, but what will be the downfall of western civilization or any other civilization…”

              Stupid pig ignorant fundies having a say in running anyone’s lives but their own?

            • Sunny Day

              “…which can seriously mold a child’s mind if you are not teaching him the difference between Movies, Sci-Fi, Jesus and other Myths and Reality.”

              Fixed that for you.

              “Have you not noticed the decline in education”

              Yeah I remember how kids could get a job designing aeroplanes right after graduating high school.

              “the increase in lazyness,” – Kids these days and their satanic video games.

              “increase in divorces” – Darn women not staying in their place shackled in marriage to their rightful master/husbands.

              “more sexual crime” – Darn women reporting those rapes, you just know she was asking for it.

              “more sexual taboos being public, ” – People do more than just holding Hands???

              “more children having children,” – Birth Rate has dropped, must be more govt lying.

              “Does this mean that none of these things never happened before…but not at this magnitude” – Violent crime has been decreasing for DECADES.

              Wow I give up. This guy is a steaming pile of ridiculous. Nothing but a long litany of what he was told is wrong with the world and only with his brand of Magic Jesus can we fix all the supposed problems in the world.

            • Yoav

              “more sexual crime” “more sexual taboos being public, ” Priests have been working hard lately. “more children having children,” Ain’t abstinence only sex ed great?

            • Just paying attn

              Dude, lay off the crack, stop wearing the tinfoil hat, and get off the cross.

              R: What? Roger seriously start coming up with some better responses. Do you see how some of the people with your perspective actually make an argument. Try that sometimes, it’s actually okay to have a real conversation.

            • Just paying attn

              That’s one of the most ignorant statements I’ve read in a long time. Congratulations!

              Well guys, I guess murder & rape is fine now — just as long as you don’t believe in God! No one believes in God anymore, except for the majority of the US population!

              durrrr hurrrr

              R: Well Daniel, I would first off like to congratulate you on an actual intelligent response. But I expected it from you, since I did read your commentary at the top before I replied to the article’s critique.

              Now on the surface it would seem that your response is very valid, but if you examine your response deeply you would see that your conclusion is only valid on the surface.

              (I guess murder & rape is fine now) — now of course murder and rape isn’t fine…or is it? First off the murder of innocent children in the mother’s womb is legal. But why is it? Because we want to have fun in the bed with out any responbilities…check those STD numbers though. Cant abort herpes and aids can we, so some of the responsibility is still there. But we can still sex who we want even with STDs though, a child though takes too much time away.

              2ndly we can see a murder or rape on the news now, and we are just ok with it. We know it’s “wrong” but we just move on. People in our neighborhoods can get murdered and raped, and after a week life just goes on, except for the victims family. Not so long ago this wasn’t the case, if someone got murdered or raped… the community felt the pain…it hurt. The murderer usually hid his/her identity. Now people boast of their crimes like it’s a mark of honor. We are slowly becoming more accepting of crimes. Hey look at abortions, at first when it became legal you had to do it earlier stages of the pregnancy….now you can do it way later. Infact they constantly put in laws to try to make it later and later….you know why? Because they want to make sure you know it’s a baby, and then kill it….just like a sacrifice. But they have to move slowly so you can be desensitized each step. We’re almost there, where you can kill a fully functional baby (just as long as the baby doesn’t take it’s first breath). Even if you pull it out by the legs first…then murder it before it breathes. Hmmm?

              (just as long as you don’t believe in God! No one believes in God anymore, except for the majority of the US population!)

              As for people who believe in God, if you actually stand up for the true values Christ teaches and not the watered down pop-jesus (yea I lower cased it cause thats not the real Jesus). If you stand up for these true values, you are cast away and people reject you because of your faith. You cant talk about it at school or on the job, because you will be punished. But let me rob somebody, I’d be the coolest dude in school. Or let me have a one night stand with the hottest chick, I’d be soooo “cool.” Let me say something about the Bible, you already know what would happen. Look at how many of yall are replying to me with sarcastic comments…you think it’s a coincedence. Noooooo….we are slowly being desensitized to wrongful acts.

              As for most of America being Christian…thats false. Thats just what they claim, if you grade them by what Christians should be graded by (Bible) they are not really Christian. But most of them dont know it, because they dont even read the Bible for themselves. Thats the difference between religion and a relationship. Religion is a hoax, made by people to control people. They are just told what to do, and they follow…they dont really read the actually manual(Bible) themselves. So they are easily tricked. They only are Christian for two hours on Sunday, other than that you cant tell them from anybody else in the world.

              And I was like that too, it took a friendship with God to know that religion is to follow man.

            • Sunny Day

              You seem to be working on the confused assumption that its worth talking over your bronze age mythology.

            • Just paying attn

              “if you are not teaching him the difference between movies and reality”
              I supose your way to teach them is far better. You are explaining them: “hey, Santa isn’t real, but Jack Frost is”. The poor kids don’t understand the differences between TLoR and the Bible, at least the first one has better morals in it.

              R: Never…I actually teach them Santa is real and Jack Frost isn’t,lol.
              But truthfully nothing has more morality than the Bible. All morals descend from the words of God. You can trace pretty much every moral law, back to the Bible.

              And yes the Bible has not been always written in this format, but the words of God have always been spoken…even before the words were written. You find a true moral, I’ll find you it’s origins from God’s words. All righteousness if it is true, has descended from God.

            • Custador

              “nothing has more morality than the Bible. All morals descend from the words of God. You can trace pretty much every moral law, back to the Bible.”

              WHAT?!?!?!?!?! Have you even READ the bloody book? OBVIOUSLY NOT!!!

            • Sunny Day

              “First off the murder of innocent children in the mother’s womb is legal. But why is it?”

              Because they are not children, they are not people. A seed is not a tree, a blueprint is not a house, a fetus is not a person.

              “Because we want to have fun in the bed with out any responbilities…”

              By the same reasoning we should deny medical treatment to people who go skiing. They knew the risks they should be responsible for the results.

              “check those STD numbers though. Cant abort herpes and aids can we, so some of the responsibility is still there. But we can still sex who we want even with STDs though, a child though takes too much time away.”

              No but you can teach everyone about the real risks and give them basic sex education and protection. You know something you silly fundies violently oppose.

              “2ndly we can see a murder or rape on the news now, and we are just ok with it. We know it’s “wrong” but we just move on. People in our neighborhoods can get murdered and raped, and after a week life just goes on, except for the victims family.”

              Maybe in your benighted section of the world. Your neighbors could be following the rules laid out in the bible and expecting the victim to marry the attacker. Or perhaps they were just embarrased to have failed to have dashed the little ones against the rocks and kill the unbelievers.

              “Not so long ago this wasn’t the case, if someone got murdered or raped… the community felt the pain…”

              Or maybe we stopped expecting people to hold their grief and pain up for our inspection.

              “The murderer usually hid his/her identity. Now people boast of their crimes like it’s a mark of honor.”

              Because police HATE confessions.

              “We are slowly becoming more accepting of crimes.”

              The burgeoning prison population shows you to be either a liar or just stupid.

              “Hey look at abortions, at first when it became legal you had to do it earlier stages of the pregnancy….now you can do it way later. ”

              I can see how going from 0 to the First Trimester is such a big jump in your skewed perceptions.

              “Infact they constantly put in laws to try to make it later and later….you know why?”

              Because we Atheists need to get our cheap hamburger from somewhere?

              “Because they want to make sure you know it’s a baby, and then kill it….just like a sacrifice.”

              Not really, its because the younger ones aren’t very photogenic. If you wait till they get older you can catch them in some interesting poses. We Atheists then swap around the pictures and put funny captions on them just like lolcats! It’s hilarious! I’ll send you the link if you want.

              “But they have to move slowly so you can be desensitized each step.”

              You hit the nail right on the head. Yep not like the good old days when you can kill a baby just because god commanded you to. Now society has to be desensitized.

              “We’re almost there, where you can kill a fully functional baby (just as long as the baby doesn’t take it’s first breath). ”

              Been there done that, was already on the law books a few decades ago.

              “Even if you pull it out by the legs first…then murder it before it breathes. Hmmm?”

              Where else can we Atheists each pull on a leg and make a wish?

              (just as long as you don’t believe in God! No one believes in God anymore, except for the majority of the US population!)

              “As for people who believe in God if you actually stand up for the true values Christ teaches and not the watered down pop-jesus.”

              The real god, not the other god, the real real god, no not that god, not the space god, or the bandanna god, the real god. You know the one that’s a white guy. That god god. the one that hides itself away from humanity and only communicates with fundie idiots, evangelical preachers, the mentally deranged and who’s miracles are shown to us through the enlightening medium of dirty windows, cheeze sammiches, and Dr’s performing medical procedures.

              “If you stand up for these true values, you are cast away and people reject you because of your faith.”

              Yep the American people hate people of faith. that’s why 99.99% of all politicians are atheists and proclaim it loudly.

              “You cant talk about it at school or on the job, because you will be punished.”

              Just wait till we get the concentration camps set up, you will be missing the good old days. heh heh.

              “But let me rob somebody, I’d be the coolest dude in school. Or let me have a one night stand with the hottest chick, I’d be soooo “cool.”

              “Let me say something about the Bible, you already know what would happen.”

              We laugh at you because we know the bible is nothing but a collection of Bronze Age faerie tales invented by ignorant misogynistic men as a security blanked to explain the scary scary world.

              “Look at how many of yall are replying to me with sarcastic comments…you think it’s a coincidence. Noooooo….we are slowly being desensitized to wrongful acts.”

              Its always gratifying to make fun of the purposefully ignorant.

              As for most of America being Christian…thats false. Thats just what they claim, if you grade them by what Christians should be graded by (Bible) they are not really Christian. But most of them dont know it, because they dont even read the Bible for themselves.”

              Thank goodness you know what real Christians are. Next could you point out where the Real Scotsmen are?

              “Religion is a hoax, made by people to control people. They are just told what to do, and they follow”

              This is the first correct thing you have said so far.

              “they dont really read the actually manual(Bible) themselves.”

              Neither do you.

              “So they are easily tricked.”

              Just like you.

              “They only are Christian for two hours on Sunday, other than that you cant tell them from anybody else in the world.”

              This is one of the best kind. The kind that holds their religion to themselves and don’t run around beating people over the heads with it. Ones who are secure enough in their faith to follow the tenants of their beliefs without trying to impose it upon others.

              “And I was like that too, it took a friendship with God to know that religion is to follow man.”

              Then you said, “Fuck That I want to be a complete ignorant wackjob!”

            • Roger

              As I’ve read your “comments,” I’ve decided that it is illogical to attempt to have a conversation with you; I prefer to respond to your inanity with haughty derision.

            • Just paying attn

              Because they are not children, they are not people. A seed is not a tree, a blueprint is not a house, a fetus is not a person.

              A blueprint is not a house, really that analogy doesn’t even work…thats just a plan for a house. A fetus is literally a baby being formed….not a plan…it’s actually in progress. As for fetus’s not being people…I hope you know that all abortions are not done in the 1st trimester. Infact some abortions are done by pulling the babies out then sticking a scissors into their skull. Hmmm? skull and legs and born of a woman…and not considered human.

              Look up partial birth abortion. Yea it’s “legal” so I guess it’s all good huh. There are alot of abortions that still occur during the 2nd and 3rd trimester.

              By the same reasoning we should deny medical treatment to people who go skiing. They knew the risks they should be responsible for the results.

              Nope…because you wouldn’t be killing anybody when do it. It’s not like you have to stab someone’s son in the head to save his dad from a ski accident.

              No but you can teach everyone about the real risks and give them basic sex education and protection. You know something you silly fundies violently oppose.

              First of all, I’m no fundie or whatever yall have come up to mean fundamentalist. 2ndly I dont oppose sex education…see you thought you knew me. 3rd when teaching sex education people seem to leave out, choose carefully who you sleep with…and waiting for marriage is the best choice. Just giving people a condom and slide show doesn’t do anything…but give em a free condom. You can get one of those at the clinic.

              Maybe in your benighted section of the world. Your neighbors could be following the rules laid out in the bible and expecting the victim to marry the attacker. Or perhaps they were just embarrased to have failed to have dashed the little ones against the rocks and kill the unbelievers.

              Oh really, so did you watch the news yesterday…how many people did they show that were shot, killed, robbed, or raped…do you remember any of the victims’ name. Hmmm? It has become routine to see that, it doesn’t even register to people anymore. Also I live in the US soooo…..unless you live out of the US…you’ve seen crime glamorized. People in gangs and the mob being portrayed as cool…dont act like you caught amneisia all of a sudden.

              Or maybe we stopped expecting people to hold their grief and pain up for our inspection.

              Actually if you spend anytime with a victims family…the grief is not hidden for too long…they will speak of it if people actually listen to them.

              Because police HATE confessions.

              Come on now Sunny, you know that snitching is totally “uncool.” Dont play games with me. Going to the cops is looked at as lamest thing since yugio cards, and in many instances it is dangerous also.

              I can see how going from 0 to the First Trimester is such a big jump in your skewed perceptions.Because we Atheists need to get our cheap hamburger from somewhere?

              Do you actually care about the mothers, or are you on here to just be a jerk?

              The burgeoning prison population shows you to be either a liar or just stupid.

              Prison population…lol. Thats a joke right…you do know alot of prisons are owned privately and the companies use the inmates for cheap labor. Lol. Sunny…you’re letting me down.

              You hit the nail right on the head. Yep not like the good old days when you can kill a baby just because god commanded you to. Now society has to be desensitized.

              Please you want to go over the Bible…instead of quoting random stories you got from an athiest hand book. If you do we can go? Just cause you dont understand how you can solve a problem with a variable “x” in it doesn’t mean that algebra isn’t real. But if you wanna go Bible we can go Bible. I’m just on here to say that killing babies is wrong.

              Where else can we Atheists each pull on a leg and make a wish?

              Now see that would be funny, if babies weren’t killed like that all the time. I thought athiest meant doesn’t believe in God, not asshole. Yeah I said it.

              Just wait till we get the concentration camps set up, you will be missing the good old days. heh heh.

              Lol. Sunny you know you guys would miss me…do you know how many emails I get from this site a day. You know you like the convo. What kinda boring world would this be if everybody agreed with you man.

              We laugh at you because we know the bible is nothing but a collection of Bronze Age faerie tales invented by ignorant misogynistic men as a security blanked to explain the scary scary world.

              It’s actually not that scary when you know the Father who created it all.

              Thank goodness you know what real Christians are. Next could you point out where the Real Scotsmen are?

              Anybody can point it out, there is a rubric(the Bible)…if you’re around somebody long enough you can discern who they are…except for the really shady ones. Those you have to wait for a long time to show their true sides. As for the Scots…they’re two blocks to the left…and up one floor.

              This is the first correct thing you have said so far.Neither do you.Just like you.

              Haha does that mean I get an extra day out of concentration camp. I actually read my Bible everyday, and as for being tricked. I assure u that I am not (but I guess that’s part of what this debate is about).

              This is one of the best kind. The kind that holds their religion to themselves and don’t run around beating people over the heads with it. Ones who are secure enough in their faith to follow the tenants of their beliefs without trying to impose it upon others.

              I dont have religion…I have a relationship with God. 2ndly I’m not beating anybody over the head with anything. We talked about abortion then religion came up…so I spoke on it. If I like the subject I will speak on it, such as sports. The lakers didn’t win last night, I wish they would have…you see how that works.

              Then you said, “Fuck That I want to be a complete ignorant wackjob!”

              Nope I said there’s no way that God doesn’t exist…the world is too organized, bodies are too organized, there is too much order to creation…for a big bang and a monkey to be the origin of man.

            • Sunny Day

              ”not a plan…it’s actually in progress.”

              Just like a construction site is a building.

              “Look up partial birth abortion.“

              This must be your moronic excuse to disallow abortion. Look up the statistics as to how often its performed. But I know you won’t because it would be expecting too much integrity from you.

              “Nope…because you wouldn’t be killing anybody when do it.”

              Just like an abortion.

              “First of all, I’m no fundie or whatever yall have come up to mean fundamentalist.”

              It walks like a Duck, Quacks like a Duck…

              “when teaching sex education people seem to leave out, choose carefully who you sleep with…and waiting for marriage is the best choice.”

              Sorry I said Sex Education, not Sex Indoctrination.

              “you’ve seen crime glamorized. “

              Yeah must be why all the COPS, and Law and Order shows have so little viewership. Everyone hates to see criminals getting caught. No you moron the reporting of violent crime has gone up because the media is trying to fill a 24 hour news cycle When you look at the statistics for violent crime it shows you for the idiotic reactionary fucdie you actually are. .

              “Going to the cops is looked at as lamest thing since yugio cards, and in many instances it is dangerous also.”

              I forgot those 24hour anonymous tip lines aren’t. You watch too much TV.

              “Do you actually care about the mothers, or are you on here to just be a jerk?”

              What!?!? You haven’t tried one of my fantastic Baby Burgers have you? They are Awesome! I was going to get a Trademark on them but I didn’t want to fight Chili’s in court over the “baby back” song.

              Oh wait I was supposed to take your BS about sacrifices seriously? I just thought you were being a typical fundie jerk. You don’t care about the mothers health, all you care about is saving some babies for Jesus and commanding women, and everyone else for that matter, to live according to your religious teachings, all the while ignoring the instructions in your own buybull.

              “you do know alot of prisons are owned privately and the companies use the inmates for cheap labor. “

              Great, a fundie and now a corporate constpiricy nut, Don’t let me down buddy, throw in a few Birther and Truther theories in there for good measure.

              “I’m just on here to say that killing babies is wrong.”

              Except when your religious book tells you when it’s ok. But its ok, closing your eyes and refusing to read the bible and your religions history is what we’ve come to expect from fundie nutjobs.

              “I thought athiest meant doesn’t believe in God, not asshole. Yeah I said it.”

              Or it could be you.

              “You know you like the convo. What kinda boring world would this be if everybody agreed with you man. “

              Jeering at idiot asshats like you is always gratifying. It’s slow at work and sharpening my claws inbetween bouts of baby butchering and burger making keeps me occupied.

              “It’s actually not that scary when you know the Father who created it all. “

              There you go! At least you can admit the world isn’t scary anymore because you have the magic Jebus Security Blanket to hide under. Now only if we can get you to stay under there and stop trying to use your Blankie as justification to tell others how to live their lives.

              “Anybody can point it out, there is a rubric(the Bible)”

              So just any old Bybull will work. Great, I guess the 5 mojor branches of xtianity can now hold hands and select a unified leader for all their denominations.

              “Those you have to wait for a long time to show their true sides. “

              Like the Fundie Idiot side.

              “I dont have religion…I have a relationship with God.”

              In the exact same way every toddler has a “relationship” with their Blankie, or Woobie, or Teddy.

              “2ndly I’m not beating anybody over the head with anything.”

              Telling women how to risk their health by bearing unwanted children isn’t beating people over the head?

              “Nope I said there’s no way that God doesn’t exist…the world is too organized, bodies are too organized, there is too much order to creation…for a big bang and a monkey to be the origin of man.”

              You just used more words than I did the first time. “Then you said, Fuck That I want to be a complete ignorant wackjob!”

  • http://www.adamus.nl Adamus

    On the Harry Potter thing, devout Christians in my direct environment also believe Harry Potter is evil and should not be shown to children, lest they be tempted into the ways of occultism and witchcraft. And that is the realm of demons.

    Seriously, I wonder where they come up with these delusions. Did someone back in the ’70 have a bad LSD trip while playing Dungeons & Dragons and has since converted to fundamentalist nutticism Christianity?

  • 2-D Man

    The thing that caught my eye the most was, “They have a dogma called choice…”
    …wait. What?!
    “YOU MUST CHOOSE!…’cause, y’know, it’s up to you.”

  • latsot

    “To confront a force this strong, you need a massive amount of prayer.”

    I’m not sure I understand why some things require more prayer than others. Is it the number of prayers that’s important or the quality? Or does it depend what you’re asking for? The first seems arbitrary, the second capricious and the third demands the question of why there’d be any need to pray in the first place.

  • Elemenope

    Abortion is not murder. An embryo has no legal standing.

    Are you seriously going to situate moral realism with the state of the law? The law says something, and therefore it is so?

    Your argument is equivalent to saying that when slavery was legal in America, since black people had no legal standing that they could morally be treated as property instead of people, simply because it was *legally* legitimate.

    There is no necessity attached to the law; whatever the law is, it could just as easily (and has been in the past and possibly will be in the future) something altogether different. This is why resorting to law in moral argumentation always fails.

  • Val

    If this wacko-job isn’t getting contraceptives and vasectomies to people to *prevent* these horrible abortions, then, he is letting the pregnancies happen and that makes him an accessory to Satanic crime!

  • latsot

    “Are you seriously going to situate moral realism with the state of the law?”

    No…the comment just said abortion wasn’t murder. Murder and abortion both have legal definitions. This isn’t the same as the related moral issues, but the comment didn’t say it was.

  • Ty

    Yeah, El, you jumped a bit soon there.

  • Elemenope

    No…the comment just said abortion wasn’t murder. Murder and abortion both have legal definitions. This isn’t the same as the related moral issues, but the comment didn’t say it was.

    Oh come on. Look at the context of the comment.
    Especially here:

    Barry, abortion is a medical procedure, plain and simple. You can play semantics all you want, but it won’t change anything.

    The most reasonable reading of the phrase in bold is that he is arguing for abortion as a mere technical procedure, i.e. an adiaphoron (the short short version: something which has no moral consequence or content.) And he used an argument from law to support this, by pointing out that abortion is not legally murder.

    The only other reasonable interpretation of the above quoted sentence is that he is literally pointing out the trivially true fact that abortion is a medical procedure, i.e., that doctors perform it. I prefer to think that he is not wasting time pointing out something which is true by definition and that nobody in the conversation would ever deny, namely, that an abortion is something the doctors do (and is, therefore, a medical procedure, by definition).

    For a similar example, one could easily and reasonably say the trivially true statement that lobotomy is a medical procedure. That is, it is a surgical procedure, performed by doctors. However, nobody in a discussion about lobotomy as a moral/ethical practice would throw a “plain and simple” after that unless they were attempting to claim something further (i.e. that the act of drilling holes into someone’s brain and removing pieces of it is morally neutral).

    Since the wider frame of this discussion is some priest making (imho pretty wild and ridiculous) moral claims about abortion, like when he claims, “Abortion is a spiritual evil“, the proper level of analysis is *moral* not *legal*. A person who takes legal definitions and inserts them into a discussion about ethics is quite literally playing “word games”.

  • sistercoyote

    He probably got the idea that the police are investigating satanism (which I always typo as “statinism” which clearly has something to do with anti-cholesterol drugs) because they have been. Have you read Michael Stackpole’s the Pulling Report? He discusses in this article some of the ways in which the “satanic panic” was propagated with regard to D&D in the 1980s, including in police forces.

    And don’t forget the Police Dynamics Institute while we’re at it.

  • http://digitaldame.wordpress.com Digital Dame

    Old Nick… Saint Nick… Hmmm…. ;)

    Carl Sagan devoted I think a whole chapter in his book “The Demon-Haunted World” to debunking the urban myth of police task forces chasing Satanic cults.

  • latsot

    Elemenope:

    Perhaps you didn’t read the last part of Jonathon’s post:

    “All this concern about the “sanctity of life”. Funny, but it seems like anti-abortionists are only concerned about the life of the fetus until birth, and care little for the life of the child afterwards.”

    That seems to put the earlier part of his post in the correct context. Barry seems to be the one confusing morality and legality and seemed to exploit this sloppy distinction to make abortion sound particularly bad “oh no! it’s murder and therefore bad!”

    Far be it for me to argue with you about what the only possible reasonable interpretations of someone else’s post might be, but it seems that Jonathon’s point was that morality *is* the important thing and lots of anti-abortionists hide behind emotive language like ‘murder’ rather than caring about what is the best way to reduce human suffering.

  • latsot

    “For a similar example, one could easily and reasonably say the trivially true statement that lobotomy is a medical procedure. That is, it is a surgical procedure, performed by doctors. However, nobody in a discussion about lobotomy as a moral/ethical practice would throw a “plain and simple” after that unless they were attempting to claim something further (i.e. that the act of drilling holes into someone’s brain and removing pieces of it is morally neutral).”

    Or unless someone else was claiming that it was necessarily morally wrong or tantamount to murder. In that context, I would certainly say that lobotomy is a medical procedure, plain and simple, without the moralistic baggage that some random person has decided to attach to it.

  • Elemenope

    latsot –

    What complicates this discussion is that murder is a moral as well as a legal concept, and the two senses do not necessarily converge.

    Barry’s quote seems to use it explicitly in the moral sense: “Medical procedures to some, murder to others. Kevorkian was simply providing a medical procedure as well in his own mind, though others disagreed.” The example from Kevorkian is important because it reinforces that the point is about personal disagreement of valuation. That those valuations sometimes are later enshrined in the law is almost besides the point.

    But then Jonathon read Barry’s “Murder” in the legal, rather than moral sense, in order to exploit an amphibology in usage to insert an argument into Barry’s comment that isn’t there.

  • latsot

    Barry:

    “Kevorkian was simply providing a medical procedure as well in his own mind, though others disagreed. ”

    And some others agreed, both that it was a medical procedure and that it was morally sound. If my life becomes torture to me, I would very much hope I could go to the vets and get an injection, just like we do with our dogs and cats.

  • latsot

    “What complicates this discussion is that murder is a moral as well as a legal concept, and the two senses do not necessarily converge. ”

    Well yes, that is largely what I’m saying. Frankly, I think you read too much into Jonathon’s comment and overreacted. That’s all I was objecting to.

  • http://www.rationalitynow.com Dan Gilbert

    I, for one, would be delighted if the anti-abortion coalition would resort to “massive amounts of prayer” to the exclusion of all else. Then maybe we could get some peace and quiet out of it and could get on with our lives. ;-)

  • Elemenope

    Or unless someone else was claiming that it was necessarily morally wrong or tantamount to murder. In that context, I would certainly say that lobotomy is a medical procedure, plain and simple, without the moralistic baggage that some random person has decided to attach to it.

    Doesn’t it strike you as sort of odd that the competing claims must be either “abortion is tantamount to murder” or “abortion has absolutely no moral valence whatsoever”. Personally I find both claims pretty absurd, but this is what the debate has been reduced to, primarily because of its politicization.

    Drilling holes in a person’s head or scooping out a fetus are acts that can have moral weight even if that weight isn’t equal to or even approaching that of murder, don’t you think? I mean, we evaluate all other sorts of acts on a continuum (i.e. stealing is not as bad as murder, but is worse than littering; lying to your friend is worse than lying to a person trying to kill you, but perhaps not as bad as lying to your mom), why not this one?

  • Elemenope

    Well yes, that is largely what I’m saying. Frankly, I think you read too much into Jonathon’s comment and overreacted. That’s all I was objecting to.

    Fair enough. Hopefully Jonathon and/or Barry will clarify what they respectively meant.

  • latsot

    “But then Jonathon read Barry’s “Murder” in the legal, rather than moral sense, in order to exploit an amphibology in usage to insert an argument into Barry’s comment that isn’t there.”

    Funny, I read the situation almost exactly the other way around.

    Of course, we are both idiots for defending people who are clearly perfectly capable of defending themselves.

  • Sock

    I am pro-choice. Not pro-abortion. There’s a significant difference. If people are going to have an abortion, that is their choice, and they will have to live with the consequences.

    If the anti-choice people are so against giving women this option, and their argument is because “that child deserves to live”, then I would suggest instead that ANYONE who feels strongly enough about this subject to stand in protest, or to sign bills or petition congressmen or anything else… that they be forced to take the child and raise it themselves. If they are truly pro-life, then prove it.

    Stuff happens. Methods to prevent pregnancies aren’t guaranteed. Rape is a reality. The woman may not be equipped to be a mother–she may be a child herself, or unable to support herself let alone a child.

  • latsot

    “Doesn’t it strike you as sort of odd that the competing claims must be either “abortion is tantamount to murder” or “abortion has absolutely no moral valence whatsoever””

    No, because I don’t see how they MUST be THE competing claims. And claims to what, exactly? It is a really bizarre statement.

    “Drilling holes in a person’s head or scooping out a fetus are acts that can have moral weight even if that weight isn’t equal to or even approaching that of murder, don’t you think?”

    Of course, and I never claimed or implied otherwise. I’m not the one dealing in absolutes – moral or otherwise – here. I’m not the one constructing bizarre polarised strawmen to defend a point that isn’t even very coherent.

  • Elemenope

    Of course, and I never claimed or implied otherwise.

    Not so fast. You wrote “In that context, I would certainly say that lobotomy is a medical procedure, plain and simple, without the moralistic baggage that some random person has decided to attach to it.” In order words, in the face of a negative moral claim, you propose it proper to strip the moral element from the object of the claim as a counterargument?

    Of course, we are both idiots for defending people who are clearly perfectly capable of defending themselves.

    Perhaps. But aren’t all arguments of this sort at best sort of second- or third-hand? The framing argument is about interpreting the claims of some (kinda wacky) priest. We can only work with what we’re given; in order to understand and participate in such a conversation, we all need to make interpretive choices about what the priest means by his words, what Jonathon means, what Barry means, etc. ad nauseam. And absent a forthcoming clarification, we should be free to speculate about the constraints and possible meanings that their texts provide when they are unclear.

    That’s not “idiocy”. That’s *analysis*. :)

  • Aor

    Is abortion is a medical procedure, yes or no.

    The reasons for the abortion are not part of this question. The morals behind the decision are not part of the question. The right or lack of right to have an abortion are not relevant to the question. Semantic games should have no part in this.

    A gynecology exam is a medical procedure. A blood transfusion is a medical procedure, no matter what Jehovah’s Witnesses may believe about the consequences of that transfusion. Setting a broken leg is a medical procedure. Injecting poisons as part of an execution is a medical procedure. Abortion is a medical procedure.

    Abortion to some, medical procedure to others? No. It is a medical procedure to everyone, and moral or immoral, legal or illegal, right or wrong are entirely separate from the simple fact the the actual abortion is a medical procedure.

  • latsot

    “Not so fast. You wrote “In that context, I would certainly say that lobotomy is a medical procedure, plain and simple, without the moralistic baggage that some random person has decided to attach to it.” In order words, in the face of a negative moral claim, you propose it proper to strip the moral element from the object of the claim as a counterargument?”

    No I don’t. I simply offer my opinion on a specific subject.

  • Jeff Eyges

    The knife in the photo looks like an OXO Professional Series Chef’s knife. That’s absolutely the wrong knife for the procedure! An obvious smear attempt on the part of the Christian Right . On behalf of fetus-sacrificing devil worshipers everywhere, I am outraged!

  • http://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Johnny Johnny

    I find it slightly humorous that christianity either disregards or has forgotten that their origins have a very blood thirsty god; he demanded animal and human sacrifice and instructed his followers to mercilessly slaughter all who he perceived as a threat.

    @Adamus: Most of the “devil worship” ideas came from the catholic church. It was the demonization of non-christian religions. “Paganism = Witchcraft = Devil-worship.” But that was a long time ago; more recently (the last few decades) misconceptions created by Hollywood have brought prevalence to devil worship. Can’t find the source at the moment but I read an article by a historian that claimed anything the police find today that resembles devil worship is a copy of something they saw from television or movies. Also if I recall, Dan Brown uses some of this thought line in Da Vinci Code.

  • Confused

    I thought abortion was supported by scripture?

    “Again, I observed all the oppression that takes place in our world: I saw the tears of the oppressed, with no one to comfort them; the oppressors have great power, and the victims are helpless. So I concluded that the dead are better off than the living; and the most fortunate of all are those who were never born, for they have never seen all the evil that is done in our world.”

    Ecclesiastes Ch4 vv 1-3.

    Show me a passage that condemns it as strongly as this one condones it.

  • Elemenope

    Is abortion is a medical procedure, yes or no.

    The reasons for the abortion are not part of this question.

    Trees, meet forest. I mean, come on, when you pull an argument to a different level of analysis, you can justify pretty much anything.

    But you’re arguing here, by asking whether or not abortion is a medical procedure, with nobody at all. So far as I know, nobody on any side of the argument claims that, in a technical sense, abortions are not procedures performed by doctors.

    The issues surrounding abortion are not whether it is “a medical procedure” but whether the performing of that medical procedure has moral consequences, and whether those moral consequences have implications for what society should or should not allow to occur.

  • Keviefriend

    Two things:
    1) If this guy is in fact male, in posession of a penis and not a uterus, then Abortion is NONE OF HIS FUCKING BUSINESS pure and simple. I have a penis, a rather nice one, and I know that Abortion has NOTHING to do with me. Less than nothing, in fact, because I also don’t have sex with women, so MY “child” will never be in contention.
    2) A quote: “You can choose not to decide but still have made a choice”-Rush (excellent band, not drug-addled gasbag).
    Kev :)

  • http://deusexeverriculum.wordpress.com/ Postman

    Look for “Law & Order: Satanic Crimes Unit” coming this Fall!

  • Ty

    Wow, a gay Rush fan who brags about his penis in his very first post.

    You, sir, are not boring.

    Welcome!

  • John C

    Abortion is a sick and gruesome evil that ends in…death. Death is not a medical ‘procedure’. A lethal injection (while tragic) as an instrument of criminal justice within a society is a far-removed concept from that of at-will abortion as a self-assumed right of entitlement.

    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness. Isaiah 5:20

    The shadow is already looming and cast over the land. Soon we will all be ‘in the dark’ if a cry for righteousness does not take root in our collective hearts and minds. Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach. Prov 14:34.

    Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. Ps 33:12

    The fear (great reverence for Him & His ways over our own) of the Lord is the beginning (but only the beginning) of wisdom Prov 1:7. If the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, then the love of the Lord is the end-product of wisdom. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and strength…Mark 12:28 If we will not love and honor God than we would be well served to at least fear Him so as to avoid the consequences of evil doings.

    Not much longer will we continue to be the beneficiaries of the blessings of previous, God-fearing generations if we do not awaken and shake off the slow but certain acclimating of our hearts toward evil. We are akin to the proverbial frog in the boiling water. The heat (evil) is continually increased until we acclimate to its temperature.

    In the Lord’s prayer, we hear Him say…keep us from evil. Many think this means from becoming victims, but truly it means to keep us from DOING evil. We hear Jabez in the OT request that God…keep him from doing evil that it may not “grieve” him. Evil always grieves…us in the end. Obedience portends to peace, disobedience to

    Rarely have I worded such a strong and declarative post. Mock, scorn, ridicule if you must but right will always be right and wrong, wrong. Thankfully we can not escape the eternal realities of a holy God.

    No other topic is such a lightning rod as this, and Daniel knows it is sure to make for a long and heated thread.

    WAKE UP I SAY, awaken to righteousness.

    JC

  • Ty

    “Rarely have I worded such a strong and declarative post. Mock, scorn, ridicule if you must but right will always be right and wrong, wrong. Thankfully we can not escape the eternal realities of a holy God.”

    Really? What about all those things in the bible that used to be right, but are now considered wrong?

    Oh, right, that just means we aren’t reading it right.

    Even when you are being strong and declarative, you’re boring.

  • latsot

    Thanks, John C.

    I was undecided on the issue until you quoted scripture at me. I’ve turned my life around now.

    Sadly, I’ve rolled my eyes clean out of my head.

  • Ty

    Fortunately, my eye sockets are built with irony absorbing crumple zones.

  • http://www.opusdiaboli.info Julian Karswell

    The worrying thing about your deranged cleric’s post is that he perceives the police force (who are just upholding the democratically constituted laws of the land) as being inconvenient goons, that might get in the way of his cross hairs when he’s on the roof opposite the abortion clinic with his deer rifle. You do wonder what kind of world he would have us living in – a Christian Taleban state.

    Abortion is not a Satanic rite – as a Satanist I can assure you that Satanism does not require any kind of sacrificial practice or ‘offering’. The word ‘sacrifice’ – which means to make holy – should be a big tip-off there!

    The obsession with sacrificing children is deeply embedded in Judeo-Christian thought: This is an extract from my forthcoming book:

    Ideas of sacrifice probably predate known religions. They date back to hunter-gatherer cultures: when hunters made a kill or when the harvest was gathered, a part of that bounty, would be given as tribute the leader or chieftan. The gods, who were capricious also had to have their share, or else they may blight the wheat next year, or lead the game away from the spears.
    Judaism made a cult of the idea of sacrifice, using burnt offerings of food. The sacrifice of humans was not unknown.

    The sacrifice of children is a thread running through the whole of Judeo-Christian thought. The killing of the first born of the Egyptians, and Jehovah ‘testing’ Abraham by telling him to make a burnt offering of Isaac are all examples of this. Christianity has it that Jehovah then sacrificed his own child. The idea that something precious has to be given up to propitiate an angry god, to take away the threat of punishment for sin, or to gain a favour, runs through all Christian thought.

    Human sacrifice and the Blood Libel
    The Romans, when their own religion was being supplanted by Christianity made reference to the idea of the blood sacrifice, hinting that they killed children for their rituals. Later in the 12th century, the same lie was applied by Christians against the Jews.

    Later, during the witch-hunts that took place beween the 15th and 17th centuries, Christians used slurs of infanticide and of cannibalism against hedge witches and Satanists indiscriminately. While there is some evidence that some witches procured abortions, and some Satanists may have used aborted foetuses in rituals of blasphemy and desecration. statistically, the proof against those who murder in the name of Christ or Mohammed compared with the paltry few deluded teenagers and lunatics who have killed to ingratiate themselves with Satan, makes the practice of Satanic human sacrifice a negligible contingency.

    Regards

    Julian Karswell

  • 2-D Man

    “Mock, scorn, ridicule if you must but right will always be right and wrong, wrong.”
    Now if only you had included some way to tell that what you had to say was defending the ‘right’ and not the ‘wrong’.
    Granted, you’ve got a lot of Bible verses there, but none of them mention abortion. Alas, you have provided us with no guidance whatsoever.

  • Ty

    “Christians used slurs of infanticide and of cannibalism against hedge witches and Satanists indiscriminately. ”

    My understanding is that the vast majority of those persecuted as witches and satanists were neither. Since the accusation was so easy to make, and so difficult to refute, it became a convenient way to attack anyone on your shit list.

  • John C

    @2-D,

    The ‘guidance’ is intended to be the inner light of Christ, within your very being. There is no need to reference abortion (specifically) to appreciate it as an inherent evil when Light indwells.

    The true offer/message is not one of religion, that being endless, pointless rule-keeping devoid of the motive of love, but a new nature (His) imparted and residing within.

    So, if Truth is not a philosophy but rather a Person (indwelling) and Truth is always…liberating and makes us free men (and women) then freedom (not religion) resides internally always testifying of liberties and opposing various and binding practices of darkness (evil).

    Duality is a cause for much internal war’ing and strife. Pride is a divisive element within. This man (of pride) must be overcome. Oneness is where liberty and light reside. In the spirit realm there is no duality, no potential for both evil & good, only good.

    For where the spirit of the Lord is there is…liberty.

  • Ty

    “For where the spirit of the Lord is there is…liberty.”

    Just not for your womb, apparently.

  • Elemenope

    There is no need to reference abortion (specifically) to appreciate it as an inherent evil when Light indwells.

    If it were such an important thing, it would stand to reason that God would have mentioned it, you know, at least once. It’s not like he was working under a word limit.

    The actual history of Christian thought betrays whether it is an obvious “evil”. Both Augustine and T. Aquinas thought abortion to be permissible under certain (fairly broad) circumstances. Jews, who know the OT better than any Christian (for fairly obvious reasons), still allow abortion under similar circumstances to those articulated by those aforementioned church fathers.

  • Roger

    John C., meet my mental killfile.

    Seriously. From the moment I saw the first lines of godbottery, I scrolled faster than Hussain Bolt.

    In terms of the dreaded “a” word, I too am a gay man who isn’t in any present danger of contributing to overpopulation, so abortion tis’nt my affair.

  • John C

    Roger-

    The age old question remains…are we our brother’s keeper? Are we? And what does this really mean anyway?

    If we are not then we certainly have no brother at all.

    Does this make any sense to you Roger?

  • Roger

    No, John C., your mental ejaculations do not make any sense. Please rephrase. And please avoid any appeals to pity/emotion.

  • Margaret

    “Abortion is blood sacrifice of innocent blood to the devil.”

    So, this guy worships a god who makes blood sacrifice to the devil (in the 50% or so of cases of spontaneous abortion). I think he’s the one who’s a satanist.

  • http://mylifeintheblender.wordpress.com lauradee24

    hahaha, Harry Potter! My parents were in that whole “gasp! It’s witchcraft!” group, and when I finally saw a Harry Potter movie in college, I was completely dumbfounded as to what the big deal was. It was no worse than the Chronicles of Narnia, which they loved! Amazing what people believe about media they have never checked out for themselves.

  • Roger

    No, no, no, Margaret…if Invisible Sky Friend wants, say, Mary to get pregnant and then, because ISF’s ways are inscrutable and PERFECT, decides that Mary shouldn’t have the baby, ISF will cause a miraculous and blessed miscarriage. How dare you question ISF’s will!

  • boomSLANG

    John C: “Abortion is a sick and gruesome evil that ends in…death.”

    Are not the “individuals” who suffer this “sick and gruesome evil” better off being “defaulted” into an eternal bliss?…you know, serving the “Lord your God, Jesus Christ” in “Heaven”?… as opposed to being born, and thus, taking an enormous risk that they will not be “Saved”, due to one or more of the myriad possible factors that contribute to so many human beings who are non-Christian? For instance, being born into a Muslim household…. or say, being influenced by “Satan” on a blog such as this(?)

    I’m curious about this.(although, I have a sneaky feeling I’ll likely regret asking)

    Continues….”WAKE UP I SAY, awaken to righteousness.”

    Hey, you forgot, “self”…..awaken to SELF-righteousness.

  • Margaret

    Roger,

    So if a person aborts a fetus it’s a sacrifice to Satan, but if ISF aborts a fetus it’s not a sacrifice to Satan? I’m confused. Think I’ll stick with the FSM. Mmmm. Is spinach pasta blasphemy?

  • Ty

    Completely off topic, but Lauradee, I love your hair.

  • Keviefriend

    Ty, thank you :)
    I’ve been trying for years not to be boring. As for Rush “Fan”, idk, I know know a few songs, but the ones I know have been stuck in my head for several years….

    Kev :)

  • John C

    @Boomslang-

    Have you considered the real tragedy in abortion? You think ‘religious’ things like judgment, etc but that’s not it.

    When a life is aborted, the great tragedy is that God is kept from eternally rewarding that one for his or her (highest) worship of a life lived out..for and in Him. The talents, gifts have all been aborted along with the one.

    What about the contributions to mankind that have been obviated by the abortion of that…one. How many Einstein’s and Mother Teresa’s have we…aborted? How many John C’s or Boomslang’s? Have you ever looked at things in this way?

    So again God is thinking of us, but we see God through a distorted, harsh, religious lens.

    We need a lens cleaning.

  • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

    John C,

    “Rarely have I worded such a strong and declarative post. Mock, scorn, ridicule if you must but right will always be right and wrong, wrong. Thankfully we can not escape the eternal realities of a holy God.”

    But you’re not religious…right???

    “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness. Isaiah 5:20

    The shadow is already looming and cast over the land. Soon we will all be ‘in the dark’ if a cry for righteousness does not take root in our collective hearts and minds. Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach. Prov 14:34.

    Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. Ps 33:12

    The fear (great reverence for Him & His ways over our own) of the Lord is the beginning (but only the beginning) of wisdom Prov 1:7. If the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, then the love of the Lord is the end-product of wisdom. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and strength…Mark 12:28 If we will not love and honor God than we would be well served to at least fear Him so as to avoid the consequences of evil doings.”

    Actually, John C has just proved once and for all that he is, in fact, religious; he is a Christian.

    Let the pathetic word-game end decisively once and for all.

    You reference scripture, you reference teachings, and you invoke a certain kind of theology.

    If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck…

  • Ty

    If you think it’s a duck, you’re not reading it right.

  • John C

    @Tele-

    Certain times call for strong words. I feel that is the case now, where we are at as a people, a nation. We are about to incur the penalty for our many wrongs…if we do not forsake our ways.

    If my departure from softer, less harsh wording has taken you by surprise, thats ok this time. You would not whisper to your neighbor that his house was burning down while he…slept. We are asleep as a nation, a people who’s senses have become dull of hearing, acclimated to the present culture. We need a rebel spirit to awaken us before our house is…no more.

    AWAKE, shout it…LOUD in love.

  • Barry

    @ latsot, Jonathan

    Here I am to clarify, though I didn’t think I needed too. Elemenope understood perfectly and as usual has defended my premise much better than I ever could. My exact point was to disentangle the moral and legal implications of what we deem to be “immoral”. Was it legal for a slave owner to beat his slave, yes, but I’m assuming you would still say it was immoral for him to do so. Just because abortion is legal “medical procedure” doesn’t divorce it from the premise that many consider it to be an immoral action.

    I don’t even need to be a theist to take this position either. I could defend the immorality of abortion on some sort of utilitarian basis, so absolutes wouldn’t even have to come in to play. Had I brought God into the picture or scripture then you could have made the conclusions that you did. Instead you jumped, and Elemenope heard pull, and scored a bullseye.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    A lobotomy is a medical procedure. I disagree with how it was done in many cases throughout modern history — however, that doesn’t mean it’s not a medical procedure.

    The same is true for abortion. You don’t have to agree with it in order to describe it as what it is: a medical procedure.

  • Ty

    There are also people who, to not die, have to have half their brain removed.

    Context is everything.

    Statements like, “abortion is murder” or “abortion is immoral” are utterly without context. Under the right circumstances, so is hacking out half of a person’s brain.

  • John C

    Just because a doctor (usually) performs the “procedure” doesn’t make it any less…gruesome.

    You can change your socks but unless you wash your feet…

    Anyone ever witnessed one of these “procedures’ in person?

  • Elemenope

    Just because a doctor (usually) performs the “procedure” doesn’t make it any less…gruesome.

    Brain surgery is usually pretty gruesome. Ever seen a bowel surgery up close?

    The ick factor has little to do either with definition or with morality.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @John C: No, I haven’t. Neither have I witnessed a lobotomy, which I’m sure is just as horrible. Amputations are horrible, and I wouldn’t want to be present for one of those, either. Hell, most anything involving doctors and knives aren’t my idea of a holiday.

    None of us claim the procedure is not gruesome. All we’re saying is it is, like it or not, a medical procedure.

  • Ty

    But this is a relevant line of discussion, because it seems to me that a great many religious taboos are based on a visceral reaction.

    “That thing makes me feel icky, therefore god doesn’t like it.”

  • Elemenope

    But this is a relevant line of discussion, because it seems to me that a great many religious taboos are based on a visceral reaction.

    Certainly. I just didn’t want to confuse “is an interesting line of inquiry” with “lends credence to the notion that ick *ought* to play a role in moral valuations” which seemed to be where John C was going.

  • 2-D Man

    Apparently:
    || <- What I’m talking about
    O <- John C’s head

    Again you fail to notify how you know abortion is wrong. You cite some verses from a book of blood and then claim that it’s the “inner light of Christ” guiding us. Which parts of the book provide us with guidance and how do you know that it’s those parts and not others?

  • John C

    Today…abortion is accepted, normal, routine, medical procedure…tomorrow…what? What’s next once our conscience’s are so seered

    Where do you draw the line? Is there one in the sand that you wont cross? At some point it becomes harder and harder as we become…harder and harder.

    Right and wrong, wrong and right, which is which? Dark and light. We’ve gotten to the point we can no longer tell can we? Some say its ok, others shout desperate plea’s of warning…who’s right? Which is it…really?

    What would a young child think if he or she witnessed an abortion? Sick thought huh? Out of the mouth of babes…

    Metanoi

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    I draw the line at a child outside a mother’s womb. Until then it is the mother’s decision. There is no slippery slope, John.

    What would a child think if he or she witnessed an amputation? Does that make it wrong?

  • John C

    @Elemenope-

    Yes, I have seen countless surgeries, trauma, blood & guts, autopsy’s, dead & dying, invasive procedures, etc as daily aspects of my work. As a consequence blood and guts dont bother me, abortion has nothing to do with the “ick” factor, rather it is the taking of a life. There is a big difference between a surgical intervention as a medical treatment in the name of good health and an abortion, in the name of death.

    Its a detestable thing…it will never be anything else.

  • 2-D Man

    For most abortions, a young child wouldn’t even know what they were looking at and would probably be asking why that lady isn’t wearing panties and has her legs in the air around the doctor. A young child wouldn’t even be able to tell that the woman was pregnant.
    As for which lines in the sand I’d cross, draw the line and tell me why I shouldn’t cross it. Thus far you’ve told me that your imaginary friend doesn’t want me to cross it. To make that reason valid, you must tell me a) why I should think your imaginary friend exists and b) why I should think your imaginary friend doesn’t want me to cross it. Thus far you’ve failed on both accounts.
    Worst of all, “Today…abortion is accepted, normal, routine, medical procedure…tomorrow…what? What’s next once our conscience’s are so seered[sic][.]” seems like the kind of arguing that would have defended slavery or prevented the emancipation of people based on their skin colour.

  • John C

    @Daniel…

    The difference is obvious. A medically required BKA can not be viewed in the same light as an abortion? A child viewing a BKA would be grossed out for sure but not a witness to the taking of a life. And yes, I have been in the surgical suite numerous times during an amputation. I’ve even carried the diseased leg out, seen it all…abortion is far worse, its killing for convenience. Its selfish, its sad.

    But again, we are all grown up.

  • Elemenope

    Today…abortion is accepted, normal, routine, medical procedure…tomorrow…what? What’s next once our conscience’s are so seared…

    All slippery slope arguments are good for is arguing stasis for its own sake. “If we do this today, then what [barely, metaphorically] related thing will be allowed tomorrow?!”

    In order to even make them *kinda* valid, you have to show that the thing you are worried about tomorrow (and, seriously, come up with something; this “well, I’m sure they’ll be something I know not what” is pretty useless) is literally dependent upon the thing being done today. So, what is it that so scares you about tomorrow, John C, that abortion today will make possible?

  • John C

    @Elemenope-

    It’s not so much a future procedure, or allowance rather the deteriorating condition of man(kinds) heart that should be, at least somewhat concerning.

    It has long been held that how a society regards their very young and their very old (with dignity, respect or otherwise) largely determines their overall (spiritual) health. I think you know what I mean by that term.

  • marcion

    I believe abortion is murder. Yet I don’t see any good reason to stop Democrats from killing their children. Less of them in the world equals a better world. Let ‘em take themselves out of the gene pool. Its their problem for following their own stupid death worshiping ideology. Better they kill their children than kill us, right?

  • marcion

    And euthanasia was just passed as part of Obama’s “stimulus” bill. It creates a new government bureaucracy that has the power to say “Bob is too old at 80 to have heart surgery: its not cost effective for medicate and social security systems — let him die.” That’s what will be happening, at least by 2012 if not 2010. Too bad his momma didn’t abort him.

  • John C

    @Marcion…

    Be careful there…you know the old saying…two wrongs dont make a right.

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    “I believe abortion is murder. Yet I don’t see any good reason to stop Democrats from killing their children. Less of them in the world equals a better world. Let ‘em take themselves out of the gene pool. Its their problem for following their own stupid death worshiping ideology. Better they kill their children than kill us, right?”

    So Republicans, Conservatives, Libertarians, etc…, none of them have abortions? Only Democrats?

  • lra364

    So abortion is a blood sacrifice?

    An odd analogy coming from a church in which the following is demanded:

    Genesis 22: Abraham is asked to sacrifice his son, Isaac.

    Deuteronomy 12: You must offer flesh offerings to God.

    Exodus 22: You must offer your first born to God.

    New Testament: Jesus is called the “lamb of god.” He is sacrificed on the cross for sin.

    According to this, a blood sacrifice is a GOOD thing!

    So what exactly is this guy complaining about?

    For the rest of us SANE people,

    The right to chose is an integral part of living in a civilized society.

    In a civilized society, people realize when they aren’t ready to be parents. They wait until they have some decent success to bring children into this world.

    They consider that children are a gift and not a right!

    They realize that they need to be in a position to give to them before having them!

    What has the church done for children?

    It allows them to starve to death, be victims of war, be subjected to unfathomable suffering (even for an adult), be sexually abused, be sold into slavery AS CHILDREN because that is god’s WILL (for them to ‘live’).

    IT IS RIDICULOUS!!

    For you religious people, what have you done for the suffering children of this world?

    Lemme guess….. NOTHING!

    Birth control is not only a right, it is a RESPONSIBILITY!!!! If you can’t afford to give your children all the basics in life (including love, attention, health care, good food, etc) THEN DON’T HAVE THEM!!!

  • lra364

    John C

    What are you doing to raise the children of people who are failing as parents?

    Lemme guess…. NOTHING!

    You are WRONG!

  • lra364

    Marcion-

    Same question!

  • John C

    @Ira364…

    What have I done?

    I’ve been to the slums of Nuevo Laredo and brought clean water and food to those living in abject poverty and hopelessness.

    What have I done?

    I’ve taken the homeless and hungry families and children into my home and fed and housed them many times for long periods of time.

    What have I done?

    I’ve given faithfully to an international aid service for orphans and poverty stricken less fortunate children.

    What have I done?

    I’ve adopted unwanted, mixed-race, out of wedlock children who were deemed worthless and disposable.

    Your right, doing nothing is unacceptable, killing them even worse.

  • lra364

    John C

    And yet, children continue to suffer and die because churches won’t teach responsible sex education.

    Let me tell you what I’ve done.

    I am a special education teacher. I don’t like the idea of aborting children because of genetic deficiencies, yet I respect the right of a woman (and a man IF he is even involved) to choose what is right for them.

    As I said, having children is a GIFT, not a RIGHT, but religion teaches that pregnancy must be continued no matter what.

    My moral position is that children should NOT be made to suffer at the hands of IGNORANT and ABUSIVE parents who never wanted them to begin with.

    I know because I was one of those children.

    BIRTH CONTROL IS MERCIFUL!

  • Elemenope

    It’s not so much a future procedure, or allowance rather the deteriorating condition of man(kinds) heart that should be, at least somewhat concerning.

    That’s a little vague to be basing policy on.

    It has long been held that how a society regards their very young and their very old (with dignity, respect or otherwise) largely determines their overall (spiritual) health. I think you know what I mean by that term.

    I know what you mean by the term. I’d say that a society’s moral health is very much determined in part by how it treats those who are disempowered (the young, the old, the infirm, prisoners, minorities of whatever stripe), but it is *also* measured primarily by its tolerance for the flowering of human freedom of action, despite the desire (even the partially justified ones) to curtail it in the name of “safety” or “purity”. Human freedom starts and ends with human physical self-possession, the notion that one’s body is one’s own (as both prison and prize).

    So, in the end, what it comes down to is the definition of a person. I have a real hard time admitting that anything which doesn’t have a nervous system (much less a functioning brain) is in any significant sense human. I also have a hard time weighing the moral rights of a mother against any creature, human or not, which cannot survive but for the voluntary largesse of the mother. In the end, while there is grey area for me at the late stages of pregnancy, for the most part I can’t bring myself to consider a fetus to have the considerations due to a human being.

  • lra364

    ps John C

    I assume you are a christian, but you never responded to my bible verses.

    Why not?

  • John C

    Abortion is not birth control Ira…to consider and employ it as such is a great injustice.

    I am sorry to hear of your personal pain…you are right, no child should have to come in the world unwanted, its very sad.

  • lra364

    Plus, John C

    What are you doing to make sure that unfit parents don’t continue to procreate (and since you brought up Mexico, which is catholic) even against the church which tells them to go forth and multiply, even if it is creating unnecessary suffering for children that parents simply can’t afford? Are you advocating birth control or are you advocating misery?

  • lra364

    Well John C, let me tell you a little more…

    In the book of Matthew, it says:

    “No one who prefers their son or daughter to me is worthy of me.”

    After the physical abuse was over, this was the verse my father used to excuse abandoning me.

    Christians are very evil in their ignorant and unthinking ways.

    Abortion IS birth control. Birth control SHOULD be advocated for people who can’t take care of children.

    Crime would greatly be reduced. The earth’s resources would be much less taxed. Much misery and suffering would be eliminated.

    Wake UP!

  • John C

    Ira…

    The verses you quote, you do not understand…respectfully speaking. Do you know what it means (OT is rich in symbolism) to…offer your first born to God? What is your first born Ira? Do you know? Why is the natural first and the spiritual second? And yet why will the first born (natural man) serve the second (spiritual man) when this runs counter to OT tradition?

    Why did Jesus speak in parables so often? Why is their a natural (physical) birth and second (spiritual) birth?

    Why did Christ say that which is of the flesh is flesh and that which is of the spirit…spirit? What do these things mean?

    Answer me these and I will answer you in full…sir.

  • Seanchai-peg

    The notion of abortion as a sacrament could have been gleaned from a great quote by Gloria Steinem:

    If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

    To my knowledge, Steinem is not an abortionist, so it’s a bit of a stretch.

  • John C

    Ira-

    Im sorry your Dad misused scripture to justify abuse. God didnt do that to you, your Dad did Ira. That is not a reflection of the Father’s heart toward you, or anyone.

  • lra364

    John C

    Please read my other posts. Answer me about those concerns.

    And I’m not a sir, I’m a girl.

    As far as Jesus’ message against the flesh, check out the ancient Greeks. They came up with that message 400 years before Jesus. Jesus copied them. It’s a crappy message.

    And one more thing, Jesus himself said that parables were a diversionary tactic to keep secret knowledge from undeserving people. How can you place ANY value in cryptic words from a bible that claims to be the inerrant, literal word of god?

  • lra364

    Concerning my dad… what exactly is the misuse here? He followed the word precisely! He didn’t misuse it. He followed it to the letter.

  • John C

    Ira…cuz you have to know the (true) heart of the Author…Ma’am.

  • lra364

    Well how can we know the *true* heart of an ambiguous author who talks of genocide and blood sacrifice, including his first born and only son?

    BTW I’m my father’s first born and my brother is his only son. As far as I’m concerned, it is RELIGION that turned my father into a total bastard, not the abuse (which could have been forgiven, except that he now believes that he has ‘put it on Jesus’ and feels NO need to reconcile himself to US who ACTUALLY COUNT!

  • Michele

    John C.

    Yes, I’ve seen many abortions. And I ‘ve seen the remains of many, many more. Prior to 12 weeks it looks like undifferentiated tissue. After 12 weeks you can make out body parts, usually limbs. All the more reason for abortion to be legal during the time frame where there is not a visible human present. Very few of the decisions to abort are made lightly or easily. Most of the women have small children (usually less than a year old) at home to care for. Some who make this decision make it because the pregnancy would kill them. Why is abandoning the children already born such a noble aspiration for a woman who has small children to raise? Are they really worth so little that their mother should die carrying another child that will end her life?

  • lra364

    Sorry, John C, but the case for Jesus weakens by the minute…

    just READ the bible!

  • lra364

    Michele-

    I am a 100% supporter of choice, but I doubt your claim on the life of the mother.

    It is very rare now days with all the medical advances for a woman to die in child birth (it is practically unheard of).

    You are not helping our case…

  • Michele

    Ira364
    I’m not talking about women who die in childbirth. I’m talking about women who chose to abort rather than do so.

  • John C

    Ira-

    “religion” is not what Christ came to bring, not the true message or offer. This is an important distinction.

    Unfortunately, you have witnessed (and expereienced) the ugly effects of “religion” on a personal basis…so you associate “jesus” with this religious mess.

  • lra364

    John C

    You said:

    “What have I done?

    I’ve been to the slums of Nuevo Laredo and brought clean water and food to those living in abject poverty and hopelessness.”

    Why so they can grow up to produce 10 more starving children? Where is your SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE charity? You are actually INCREASING misery NOT decreasing it!

    “What have I done?

    I’ve taken the homeless and hungry families and children into my home and fed and housed them many times for long periods of time.”

    DITTO

    “What have I done?

    I’ve given faithfully to an international aid service for orphans and poverty stricken less fortunate children.”

    Once again, DITTO

    “What have I done?

    I’ve adopted unwanted, mixed-race, out of wedlock children who were deemed worthless and disposable.”

    Well there you might be on to something. Be sure to teach them NOT to PROCREATE unless they can offer a GOOD life to their children!!!

  • lra364

    Michele-

    Same difference.

  • lra364

    John C

    As opposed to what? Is there any way to access the supposed *true* message of a guy who died 2000+ years ago?

    Really?

    So it’s not Jesus, it is the vehicle that passes him along? Really?

  • lra364

    *crickets*

  • Sunny Day

    Re posting here something that another person said but can sum up my thoughts on the morality of abortion.

    1. Life began shortly after the earth cooled. It is continuous. Ova are alive. That doesn’t make them people.

    2. Aborting an embryo will be equivalent to killing a person when failing to build a house is equivalent to demolishing it. You don’t live in a blueprint, do you? Turning a blueprint into a house takes time, materials and work. So, too, turning a fertilized ovum into a full-term fetus, ready to be born.

    3. Abortion is “icky.” Abortion is regrettable. You think that it’s unethical. Other people do not. So let’s say that it’s debatable.

    4. If it’s debatable, or could be regretted, then the person most affected by the decision should be the one making it. Students should finish their education, but we don’t chain them to their desks. And we don’t say, “You failed physics so you’re condemned to being a janitor for the next ten years.”

    5. Unfortunately, a lot of the anti-choice rhetoric seems based in a desire to punish women. “She had sex so let her bear the consequences.” The intended consequences were fun, not child-rearing. That’s like saying that people fly airplanes in order to crash. Or banning skiers from medical care after a tumble because “they knew they were taking a risk.” It’s both small-minded and short-sighted. The person who is really punished by forcing an unwilling mother to give birth is the child.

    6. It is not a solution to say, “Women should have the baby and give it up for adoption.” Once again, you’re telling her what to do. And childbirth forms a connection mediated by hormones, that condemns a woman to search the crowd for the rest of her life, wondering if she is seeing her child.

    6b.Also, Having a baby is physically demanding and somewhat risky. The people who make much of the risks of abortion fail to mention that childbirth is 13 times more likely to kill you. Thus, four women who die of abortions represent fifty women who had abortions instead of dying in childbirth. Need I point out that, except for conscripting soldiers, we don’t force people to take risks against their will? That’s a strong ethical argument against denying women abortions because you think it’s unethical.

    7. As Gloria Steinem pointed out, the basis of the “abortion debate” is denying women the status of ethical beings and legal adults who can make up their own minds about important personal decisions.

    8. And, no, I’m not speaking up for “the child.” The man on the street has no right to use my body against my will. Neither does an embryo. Even if it were in there reading the New York Times and thinking about which bank to knock off first when it developed hands and feet. (The second qualifier reminds us that its much-touted “innocence” is the innocence of incapacity, not ethical choice.)

    9. The “special connection” between mother and zygote is physical dependency. You take that to mean that there should be an emotional connection as well. That’s an assumption on your part which assumes your conclusion: that she should want to keep it. Like the assumption that women are “more moral” than men, it imposes a different standard on women than on the rest of us and expects them to act in a less self-interested way. Then they get less praise for being unselfish and more condemnation for acting in their own interests.

    10. Finally, Since one can kill a deer or a lamb or a bat, all of which have more brain function and feeling than an embryo, the “it could turn into a person if you supply enough blood circulation, food, care, and pain” argument is, in my opinion, proxy for “But it has a soul! It’s people to God! You’re denying Him another worshiper!” Like “Allow academic freedom and let students question evolution,” it’s an argument that is, at bottom, religiously based. It assumes the presence of a deity and an immaterial, unprovable soul. Consequently, enshrining laws against abortion based on these assumptions is breaching the separation of Church and State that is mandated in the U.S. constitution. If you are in the U.S., that should mean something to you.

    10b. Opposition to abortion on the grounds that “This is a person” is also an artificial inflation of the value of an embryo. For a reality check, consider that families don’t mean an early miscarriage or late period (spontaneous abortion) as they would the death of a child or a baby or even a stillbirth or late miscarriage.

  • lra364

    You go, Sunny Day!

  • lra364

    As I said before…

    Birth control is not only a right, it is a RESPONSIBILITY!!!! If you can’t afford to give your children all the basics in life (including love, attention, health care, good food, etc)

    THEN DON’T HAVE THEM!!!

  • Elemenope

    5. Unfortunately, a lot of the anti-choice rhetoric seems based in a desire to punish women. “She had sex so let her bear the consequences.” The intended consequences were fun, not child-rearing. That’s like saying that people fly airplanes in order to crash. Or banning skiers from medical care after a tumble because “they knew they were taking a risk.” It’s both small-minded and short-sighted. The person who is really punished by forcing an unwilling mother to give birth is the child.

    What’s particularly interesting about this one is that they seek to visit the “consequences” of the woman having sex on everyone else in society (who presumably had nothing tro do with the decision of the woman to have sex), since bringing a child from birth to maturity is very much a social, as well as personal, cost. One more desk at school, etc..

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    Ira…cuz you have to know the (true) heart of the Author…Ma’am.

    Someone who knows that the true heart of the author is the sadistic, violent bully portrayed in the OT is going to interpret the whole bible through that lens.

    John C knows that the true heart of the author is loving kindness, so he has to pretend that all the times he demanded that babies be killed for his glory are a secret code for, I don’t know, giving people hugs.

    If the author’s actual intent can’t be discerned from the actual text, then he’s an incompetent author. Why would you believe that an omnipotent, omniscient being would eb incapable of making himself understood? Why do you have to decide what he’s going to say before you start reading, and torture the text to meet your preconceptions? And how does that mean that your preconceptions are more accurate than anyone else’s?

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    It is very rare now days with all the medical advances for a woman to die in child birth (it is practically unheard of).

    Yeah, because if it’s a serious risk, most mothers have an abortion.

  • http://whyareyousofat.wordpress.com McBloggenstein

    “..all the times he demanded that babies be killed for his glory are a secret code for, I don’t know, giving people hugs.”

    lol

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    McBlog:

    Seriously, it’s like reading Lord of the Rings, but before you begin, deciding that it’s going to be a gritty, noir detective story set in downtown Los Angeles, and that everything that apparently deviates from that concept must be coded, or allegorical, or otherwise not what it appears to say. And that you know that your reading is right, because you know that’s the type of story Tolkien was trying to tell. And your interpretation is entirely consistent with itself, so that proves that you accurately know Tolkien’s heart, right?

  • Roger

    And if you don’t believe that that’s what Tolkien intended, you’ll burn in hellfire for all eternity. Yay, Tolkien!

  • Pingback: Abortion Is a Blood Sacrifice Unto Satan! « Skepfeeds-The Best Skeptical blogs of the day

  • latsot

    wintermute: very good.

  • boomSLANG

    John C., @Boomslang……

    “Have you considered the real tragedy in abortion?”

    Yes. I concede that there are viable alternatives to abortion. At the same time, I’m of the position that each case should be taken on an individual basis.

    If you and your superstitious constituents believe that “souls” are injected into embryos at a specific term in a pregnancy, then perhaps you all should rally to have social security #’s issued to these embryos, as well, as to not rob these “children” of their government benefits. Also, maybe pregnant women who consume alcohol and/or drugs should be issued jail time for “contributing to a minor”. Yes? Oh, and here’s one you’ll probably like—pregnant women who travel by airline should get half-off on their second ticket, instead of paying for two adult tickets. ‘Fair?

    In other words, if you truly believe a fertilized egg is a “human being”, then damn it—be consistant in pushing for these “children’s” rights, would you?

    Continues…..”You think ‘religious’ things like judgment, etc but that’s not it.”

    As I’ve told you…..oh, perhaps a dozen times, now……the minute you start pimping your personal, subjective beliefs(however “unconventional”) onto others, it falls into the realm of “religion”. BTW, you are clearly judging others, which is why your attempts at distancing yourself from “judgement” is out-and-out, laughable.

    Continues….”When a life is aborted, the great tragedy is that God is kept from eternally rewarding that one for his or her (highest) worship of a life lived out..for and in Him.”

    You totally circumvent the point of my previous syllogism.(shocker). You simply assume that the “child” who is born will live their life “for and in Him[biblegod]“. You fail to acknowledge the possibility that they might *not* come to be a “Christian” at all, thus, being un-Saved, thus, spending an eternity in “hell”….or, an eternity being “separated” from your biblegod….or whatever-the-heck it is you believe about those who are not “Saved”.

    BTW, that reminds me—I’m still waiting on that information. Tell me about “hell”, John C, and how it relates to your biblegod, who you insist is “all-loving”. ‘Waiting.

    Continues….”The talents, gifts have all been aborted along with the one.”

    and…

    “What about the contributions to mankind that have been obviated by the abortion of that…one. How many Einstein’s and Mother Teresa’s have we…aborted? How many John C’s or Boomslang’s? Have you ever looked at things in this way?”

    If you want me to look at things that way; if you are going to use “potential” for an argument, then I can simply say “aborting” eliminates the potential for more Jeffrey Dahmers and Charlies Mansons in the world.

    Continues….”So again God is thinking of us…”

    So again, *existential fallacy*.

    Continues….”… but we see God through a distorted, harsh, religious lens.”

    No, I don’t “see” a “God” at all. That’s the problem, ad nauseam.

    Continues….”We need a lens cleaning.”

    No—we need a superstition cleaning.

  • Elemenope

    Oh, and here’s one you’ll probably like—pregnant women who travel by airline should get half-off on their second ticket, instead of paying for two adult tickets. ‘Fair?

    Not for nothing but people flying in an airplane are being charged for the number of *seats* they use. So far as I know, a pregnant woman usually only occupies one seat, no matter how many buns are in the oven.

    My thing is, if some Christians believe that ensoulment of the fetus occurs *at fertilization*, doesn’t this mean that identical twins literally only have half a soul? Let’s not even ask about triplets…

  • Aor

    @Elemenope

    I made simple points, yet again, using the actual definitions of words.

    But you’re arguing here, by asking whether or not abortion is a medical procedure, with nobody at all.

    No.
    Someone mentioned loaded language, Barry said “Medical procedures to some, abortion to others” and “The guy seems crazy for sure, but to call it simply a medical procedure is direct assumption of the right to choice” and I made the simple and irrefutable point that abortion is a medical procedure, period. Moral considerations are completely outside of the meaning of the word abortion in exactly the same way that moral considerations are outside of the definition of injecting someone with a needle (does the needle contain glucose, or poison? Doesn’t matter. Its still injecting a needle.) I stripped the loaded language out of the meaning of abortion being a medical procedure. I corrected an obvious problem.

    Trees, meet forest. I mean, come on, when you pull an argument to a different level of analysis, you can justify pretty much anything.

    I have no idea where you get the idea that using the actual meaning of words is justifying anything. Please, adjust your thinking. I have the impression that you want to disagree with me simply because I said it. I notice that you said nothing when Daniel made the same point later on. The ability to separate the argument from the person making the argument is a key part of rational discussion.

    When people using a word try to sneak extra meanings into it (hidden moral agendas) then skeptical people should be at work stripping those hidden agendas out of words. Definitions are important, and not allowing people to sneak in their own meanings unnoticed is important as well.

    The issues surrounding abortion are not whether it is “a medical procedure” but whether the performing of that medical procedure has moral consequences, and whether those moral consequences have implications for what society should or should not allow to occur.

    I am well aware of that. In fact, you may have noticed that I mentioned specifically that those moral considerations are not part of the definition of abortion.

    Clear definitions promote clear thinking. Unclear definitions promote unclear thinking. I won’t sit idly by and let someone misdefine abortion, and you shouldn’t either.

  • Elemenope

    Aor,

    With all apologies to you, at the point when I wrote that I hadn’t seen the comment (one of John C’s) that confirmed there is actually a person crazy enough to deny the simple technical definition of “medical procedure” as it applies to abortion.

    But it was fairly clear from Barry’s comment that he was getting at something different. Your fetish for “Clear definitions” really sometimes seems like a commitment to linguistic literalism, when just about *nobody* actually uses any language that way.

    And, no, the criticism wasn’t personal.

  • http://whostolemyurl.wordpress.com/ sungirltan

    i think its interesting – the comparisom between lobotomy and abortion. unless i’m mistaken they are few if not no christian groups campaigning manically against lobotomy. (if there are then granted i am wrong) is the life on an undeveloped fetus more valuable than a person who is already alive? or are mental health service users not worthy of your protection?

    furthermore – this harry potter business is hilarious! if you guys are so confident of the existence of god why are you worried about the influence of a childrens book!? i mean how paranoid!!

  • Elemenope

    unless i’m mistaken they are few if not no christian groups campaigning manically against lobotomy. (if there are then granted i am wrong) is the life on an undeveloped fetus more valuable than a person who is already alive? or are mental health service users not worthy of your protection?

    Certainly part of it is that there are far fewer lobotomies than abortions. Of course, that’s never stood in the way of a really good flash moral panic (D&D, anyone?) but really doesn’t help to sustain a long-term legal and social campaign, such as that against legalized abortion.

    Also, babies are cute, and crazy people tend to make folk nervous. We care about people clubbing baby seals but not about hacking cows to pieces, cause baby seals are just so much cuter (and probably don’t taste as good). Often, a cause’s viability depends upon how likable the “victims” are.

  • boomSLANG

    “So far as I know, a pregnant woman usually only occupies one seat, no matter how many buns are in the oven.”

    Perhaps, but the “child” is eating the airline food, which is probably incorporated into the ticket price. And yes, I know……”airline food” is an oxymoron, but that’s besides the point.

  • Val

    Ira364 and Sunny Day: You Go!

    Instead of adding to what you say, for now I’ll say this:

    People should read your posts again!

    (Of course, many shall remain clueless, even unto their twelve times twelfth reading.)

    It’s good stuff. Keep it up.

  • Elemenope

    Perhaps, but the “child” is eating the airline food, which is probably incorporated into the ticket price. And yes, I know……”airline food” is an oxymoron, but that’s besides the point.

    Baby hunger FTW.

  • Jabster

    @sungirltan

    Would a more valid comparison be between euthanasia and abortion both of which may be considered to taking a life. In this area the religious lobby are certainly active. Take a look at the recent case in Italy of Eluana Englaro and her parents’ fight to let her die.

  • John C

    When love is the dominant aspect of our being, of our lives, we will think and act differently, out of love.

    Btw…Love is a Person.

    Love is a way of life, is life itself.

  • Jabster

    @elemenope/boomSLANG

    You’ve got to check the religion of the person first as Muslim scholars have decided that the soul doesn’t appear until 120 days. That would a tricky moral choice for a Christian — is it worse to lie and say you’re a Muslim or an atheist?

  • Jabster

    @elemenope

    “Also, babies are cute, and crazy people tend to make folk nervous. We care about people clubbing baby seals but not about hacking cows to pieces, cause baby seals are just so much cuter (and probably don’t taste as good). Often, a cause’s viability depends upon how likable the “victims” are.”

    There is an element of the cuter they are the more sympathy they get — although hedgehogs seems to break all the rules — but the spilt may also been seen to be it’s ok to kill something to eat it but not to wear it or simply cull it. Here in the UK we now a great debate over whether it’s correct to cull grey squirrels to protect the native red squirrel and in case you wondering yes red squirrels are as cute as a button!

  • Elemenope

    although hedgehogs seems to break all the rules

    You don’t think hedgehogs are cute?!

    …but the split may also been seen to be it’s ok to kill something to eat it but not to wear it or simply cull it.

    Good point.

  • http://whyareyousofat.wordpress.com McBloggenstein

    “Also, babies are cute”

    mm.. Not all babies.

    @Jabster

    Muslims say it enters the body at 120 days?
    I wish Christians would agree on that. At least then their postition would be more specific, and then if one disagreed it would be simpler to debate such a topic.

  • boomSLANG

    John C: “Btw…Love is a Person.”

    No it isn’t. Let’s review: “Love”….. is love.

    Moreover, “love” is not just an noun, but also a verb(action). We generally don’t show “love” towards other human beings by….

    - remaining invisible to them

    - testing them

    - asking them to accept our existence on “faith”.

    - making them beg for what we already know they need

    - talking to them in “code”(your word)

    - teaching them that human suffering is sometimes virtuous

    - torturing them if they don’t reciprocate our “love”

    All of which this “Person” you insist is “Love”, does.

    Tell us about “hell”, John C.

  • John C

    @Mcblog-

    Re: your “soul” comments…see C.S. Lewis quote:

    “You dont HAVE a soul, you HAVE a body, you ARE a soul”

    I like it…which of course means you will loathe it…lol

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    John C:

    Everyone knows that love is a chocolate cake. Clearly you’re not very good at reading the secret code in the Bible. But don’t worry, once you know the true heart of the author, it’ll all make sense.

  • John C

    @Boomslang-

    Dude, you’re obsessed about hell…why all the focus on what is NOT in the offer??

    You will not ascribe the good, but insist God is to blame for ALL the bad…makes no sense Boomslang…??

    Is there any chance, even the slightest that you are…wrong, or at least not fully informed?

    How ’bout a positive dialogue, you seem to quickly digress to a negative platform…from the get go…

    Yes, God is love.

  • Jabster

    @elemenope

    Hedgehogs are dammed cute but …

    Big eyes — beady little eyes
    Button Nose — large thin snout
    Furry — spines

    @McBloggenstein

    Who knows who comes up with this sort of stuff — why was it 120 days, sounds like a made up number me; how do you know when the 120 days are up?

  • John C

    @Winter-

    Good to hear from you winter…but I’m allergic to chocolate.

  • Jabster

    @boomSLANG

    Has anyone made a joke about how you’ve just described marriage?

  • John C

    @Winter-

    God “entrusts” us (spiritual Jews) with His “oracles”. Romans 3:2

    Also…he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but inwardly. Romans 2:28

    In these truth’s is the “secret code” that you mock me about.

    Want to know more??

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ john C

    “You will not ascribe the good, but insist God is to blame for ALL the bad…makes no sense Boomslang…??

    mark: I have been wondering for a while now, why does the all power, divine and eternal god get credit for all of the good things that happen, but inspite of the fact that he is control of everything, created everthing including evil and satan, god recieves no blame for all of the evil in the word.

    “Is there any chance, even the slightest that you are…wrong, or at least not fully informed?”

    mark: My question to you is the same, especially considering the fact that god is always hiding from those who love and are trying to find him. Also why isnt your god more clear about what he wants.

    Yes, God is love.”

    mark: What exactly does this statement mean. Is it love to give instructions on how to sell ones daughter into slavery? Please list some reason why you consider god love if you will.

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ John C

    “In these truth’s is the “secret code” that you mock me about.

    Want to know more??”

    mark: Exactly why does god have secret codes? Why would a god who wants people to know him and his word send his messages in secret codes?

    Yes john I would love to know more.

  • John C

    @Markbey

    In the OT, what is the symbolism for the female aspect of our being? Do you know?

    Why did Jesus speak in parables?

    ———————————————————————–

    As far as ascribing to God all the evils, you incorrectly suppose He is “in control of everything”. He gave us dominion to rule and reign and says “ye are god’s, children of the most High God” Ps 82:6.

    Who is it that rapes, murder’s, steals Markbey, is it God or do we find man commiting such attrocities??

    Man (devoid of the love of God in which he was originally created to live out of) is responsible for the evil we see today, the evils of the past and yes, even the evils of religion.

    Consider these things Markbey…please

  • boomSLANG

    Jabster, @boomSLANG…..

    “Has anyone made a joke about how you’ve just described marriage?”

    No. But this certainly explains why I’ve employed my free will to be single.

  • John C

    @Marbey-

    Jesus said “you search the scriptures that you might find me (eternal life), but you refuse to come to me to receive it”

    The bible is not a book in the way that a book is…a mere book. It is not so much that the bible is written in “code” but rather it is written in the spirit of our original (but forgotten) language. When we departed from the Father’s bosom in the original, paradaisical life we lost our heavenly, spiritual perception and essentially morphed into the lower, physical state that we find ourselves bound to today. This is why Jesus said that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. There are two realms, one being spirit, the other flesh. The true offer and message of Jesus is to restore back to us our true spiritual nature which free’s us from the confines of fleshy living.

    This is why I say that religion is not what Christ offers, but rather a spiritual life.

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ john C

    ” As far as ascribing to God all the evils, you incorrectly suppose He is “in control of everything”.”

    mark: If god is eternal and good. If god created everything in the universe then wouldnt that mean that god also created evil.

    If god didnt create evil then exactly where did evil come from?

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ john c

    “The bible is not a book in the way that a book is…a mere book. It is not so much that the bible is written in “code” but rather it is written in the spirit of our original (but forgotten) language. ”

    mark: First of all you choose the word code not me. Also god could give us the ability to understand his language any time he decides to.

    Also if the word of god is what we need to get closer to god. If god wants us to know his word and to follow it, then why would he inspire it to be written in a language that we can understand?

    Also exactly what forgotten language are you talking about?

  • John C

    Pride…rebellion, the “apart from” God life naturally arouses the latent potential to manifest evil. More of a by-product of living outside of God, desiring to be ‘like’ God that meaning possessing the knowledge of good & evil as opposed to our original, created condition of innocence.

    Some will quote a verse in Isaiah…I think its out of context in mho.

    We (man living outside his original matrix for lack of a better term) is why evil is so prevalent today. That’s why only a change of nature, an internal exchange of heart can remedy man’s plight…Christ IN you, as you is the answer.

  • John C

    @Markbey-

    I am saying this…that the flesh realm does not understand the language of the spirit…heavenly realm. This is why Paul admonishes us to…walk (live) in the spirit (realm) and then we wont live out of our lower, flesh nature we inherited from our first father…Adam, the one that rebelled and lived ‘apart’ from God.

    Christ restores in us the heavenly, spiritual aspect of our (original) being so we can then hear, perceive the things of the spirit realm….again like we did before pride entered our being.

  • John C

    @Markbey-

    I gotta run out for a while, I appreciate the high quality discussion, would be happy to pick it back up later if you are interested…take care markbey…

    JC

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ john

    ” Pride…rebellion, the “apart from” God life naturally arouses the latent potential to manifest evil. More of a by-product of living outside of God, desiring to be ‘like’ God that meaning possessing the knowledge of good & evil as opposed to our original, created condition of innocence.”

    mark: John your statement assumes that evil already existed at the time of adam and eve, so once more where exactly did evil come from?

    If god created everthing and before god thier was nothing then dosent that mean god created evil?

    Also is god good? If yes then what exactly makes god good? Was god being good when he gave instructions on selling ones daughter into slavery

    “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.”
    (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    P.S John please dont evade my questions please answer my questions and Ill answer whatever questions you may want answered.

  • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

    @ wintermute

    The cake is a lie.

  • Elemenope

    Hedgehogs are dammed cute but …

    Big eyes — beady little eyes
    Button Nose — large thin snout
    Furry — spines

    Oh, those rules! Yeah, they are an anomaly. I think it comes from a combination of size (tiny), gait (wobbly), body structure (roly-poly), and the fact that the spines contrast with a cute soft underbelly.

  • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

    John C said:

    “Pride…rebellion, the “apart from” God life naturally arouses the latent potential to manifest evil. More of a by-product of living outside of God, desiring to be ‘like’ God that meaning possessing the knowledge of good & evil as opposed to our original, created condition of innocence.”

    Not really. By statistical measure, you are wrong. How can the least religious states in the US have some of the lowest crime rates? How can some of the world’s least religious nations also have some of the lowest crime rates, if being “apart from” god “arouses the latent potential to manifest evil”.

    You are wrong — the evidence shows it. Those who are “living outside” of religion are just as moral as those who share your beliefs.

    “We (man living outside his original matrix for lack of a better term) is why evil is so prevalent today. That’s why only a change of nature, an internal exchange of heart can remedy man’s plight…Christ IN you, as you is the answer.”

    No. Again, ask yourself: why aren’t less demographically Christian areas home to more criminal activity? If “evil is so prevalent” because of “man living outside his original matrix” why aren’t those who are more Christian living in better societies?

    Your perception of morality is flawed. People don’t need your beliefs to be moral. People who share your beliefs are not significantly more moral than agnostics and atheists.

    You are wrong.

  • boomSLANG

    John C., @Boomslang-

    “Dude, you’re obsessed about hell…”

    Dude, I am “obsessed about hell”, only to the extent that you are obsessed with hanging out here and being deliberately deceptive when it comes to portraying your subjective, Theistic philosophy(ies) on life, and on the subject of epistemology.

    Continues….”…why all the focus on what is NOT in the offer??”

    For the record—is this your unequivocal admission that there are no reprecussions/penalties for my rejecting this “offer”…..specifically, that there is no such thing as a “hell”? Yes, or no?

    Continues….”You will not ascribe the good, but insist God is to blame for ALL the bad…makes no sense Boomslang…??”

    Once more, I am not “blaming” your biblegod, because, *again*, I don’t harbor a belief in said being, nor any other invisible, conscious beings. I am simply trying to get you, the Theist, to be consistant in portraying your Theistic philosophy, that is, if you are going hang around and represent it as the Absolute Truth that you insist it is.

    Now that that went in one ear and out the other—-let me add, it is sometimes necessary to argue under the pretense that the biblegod that you pretend to worship actually exists, and that it carries all the attributes that you say/imply it does…i.e….Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omnibenevolence, etc…..and what seems to be your personal favorite….”Love is a Person”.

    Continues….”Is there any chance, even the slightest that you are…wrong, or at least not fully informed?”

    Yes!..absolutely! Show me some objective evidence that this “Person”/deity has a referent in reality, and I will reconsider my position. If you don’t have any such evidence, but instead, what you *do* have is nothing more than bare assertions(as is the case), then you’ll need to at least make those assertions coherent, reasonable, and uncontradictory. Thus far, you have failed at all, IMO.

    Before we move on—will you get honest and answer your own question? Will you, John C., admit that there’s a possiblity that you’ve been misinformed?….that you could be…wr…wrr…wrrrr….wrong? Yes or no?

    John C: “How ’bout a positive dialogue, you seem to quickly digress to a negative platform…from the get go…”
    What “dialogue”?

    A “dialogue” is where people listen to one another. So far, it’s simply been, and continues to be, John C. asserting that his views are Truth, while showing zero sign of even entertaining any POV that disagrees with(or is skeptical of) his own.

    Continues…”Yes, God is love.”

    Praise El!!!

    Shalom!

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ john c

    “I am saying this…that the flesh realm does not understand the language of the spirit…heavenly realm.”

    mark: Once again god could cut through all of that since god set up the rules of the game in the first place. If god truly wants us to understand his word why wouldnt he simplify his word or make humans a little smarter?

  • Elemenope

    No. Again, ask yourself: why aren’t less demographically Christian areas home to more criminal activity? If “evil is so prevalent” because of “man living outside his original matrix” why aren’t those who are more Christian living in better societies?

    Your perception of morality is flawed. People don’t need your beliefs to be moral. People who share your beliefs are not significantly more moral than agnostics and atheists.

    Devil’s Advocate for a second: legal is not isomorphic with moral, so crime statistics tell you very little about the moral character of any given group.

    For example, if (some) Christians had their way, and those things they consider immoral (like abortion, pornography, blasphemy, sodomy, etc..) were actually illegal, the criminal statistics would undoubtedly change, and possibly unevenly towards making us in the heathen-ish states more ‘criminal’, statistically speaking. On the other token, the “criminal statistics” in, say, Ancient Rome, would not conform well to what our modern secular sense of morality would be (with men being able to legally rape their wives, kill their children and slaves, etc.), and so would be equally useless for us today in trying to compare the relative morality of different segments of Roman society.

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ enope

    “Devil’s Advocate for a second: legal is not isomorphic with moral, so crime statistics tell you very little about the moral character of any given group.”

    mark: Dude, stop playing games it is what it is. I have seen no evidence at all that the behavior of christians is any more moral than any elses generally speaking.

    What you just said is non sense. The point that bslang made was completely legitimate.

  • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

    @ Elemenope

    That’s a perfectly valid argument right up until you begin to examine the occurences and rates of pornography, abortion, teenage pregancy, etc. in the individual states and nations, and realize that Bible Belt areas have higher or relatively high rates of these things, too.

    Those standards would still just make the “heathen” states less criminal, too.

    About all the way around, John C is wrong on morality.

  • cello

    @ elemenope

    For example, if (some) Christians had their way, and those things they consider immoral (like abortion, pornography, blasphemy, sodomy, etc..) were actually illegal, the criminal statistics would undoubtedly change, and possibly unevenly towards making us in the heathen-ish states more ‘criminal’, statistically speaking.

    I agree with your broader point about morals versus law but I would question the details above. Divorce, for example, has statistically proven higher in the most religiously conservative states. And the one sin Christian men will often admit to is viewing pornography. And of the laws we are talking about – theft and violent crime – I’m pretty sure Christians would still consider those immoral acts and has been demonstrated – their states lead in those particular crimes.

  • cello

    @ teleprompter – This is OT and I should probably just post this on your blog but I really enjoyed your Unconditional Love Sermon.

    This “fire and brimstone” theology, however, is doomed to fail, because it is counter-intuitive to the best human definitions of love.

    This was a great line.

  • Elemenope

    Divorce, for example, has statistically proven higher in the most religiously conservative states. And the one sin Christian men will often admit to is viewing pornography.

    That’s why I threw in the “possibly”. :) Some of the “sin” crimes are more prevalent in areas of higher religiosity, though controlling for confounding factors (esp. confirmation bias) would be tough. What I wonder is whether religiosity actually is a positive predictor of these behaviors if you control for other more obvious factors (like poverty, cultural difference, etc.); that would be a really cool study, no matter how it came out.

    And of the laws we are talking about – theft and violent crime – I’m pretty sure Christians would still consider those immoral acts and has been demonstrated – their states lead in those particular crimes.

    That’s probably true except on the outliers. Some very few Christians (mostly, the Dominionists) would argue that killing is OK to help usher in the Kingdom of God, or to prevent a ‘greater Holocaust’ (er…abortion).

    What I’m saying is that even the obvious ones are somewhat confounded. “Murder” is easy to measure, unless you consider abortion to be murder…in which case we get a whole different map. You’re probably right that the theft one would be a better predictor. Not much disagreement on the definition of that across religious boundaries in the US at least.

  • Elemenope

    Also, I’m pretty sure that one area that the religious states do *not* lead in is number of abortions per capita. So while the Jesus belt beats everyone in divorce, teenage pregnancy, etc., the abortion question could still tilt the map.

  • cello

    Crikey. What’s going on in DC? Double the rate of New York.

    Well to throw another layer on to the discussion, I think abortion access would have to be factored in. Someone told me a an astoundingly low number of abortion providers are available in most US states – like in some states there is only 1 provider for the whole state – but I haven’t verified that.

  • John C

    @Tele-

    What in the world does “religion” have to do with what I said?? You are still assuming that just because someone attends church, professes to be a “christian” that makes them “in God”. This is not the case…but its your only reference point for God so its your natural conclusion.

    It does not surprise me in the least that less ‘religious’ societies boast a lower crime rate. Religion (endless rule keeping devoid of love as the motivating principle) engenders a ‘boomerang’ effect, ex…this forum’s founder. His religious experience was such a turn off, not what his heart was looking for, not free’ing rather quite the opposite so the result is…UF.

    After all our discussions, I thought we were further along than this in our mutual understanding, I will take the blame.

    Once again…religion is NOT what Christ offers.

  • Elemenope

    Well to throw another layer on to the discussion, I think abortion access would have to be factored in. Someone told me a an astoundingly low number of abortion providers are available in most US states – like in some states there is only 1 provider for the whole state – but I haven’t verified that.

    Definitely that would have a profound effect on the stats. And yes, I’ve heard similar things, some from fairly credible (though not uninterested) parties.

  • Elemenope

    Once again…religion is NOT what Christ offers.

    Religion comes from the Latin word “religare”, the verb “to tie back, to tie again”, and in the spiritual context the meaning is that “religion” is the act or process of “reconnecting” or “retying oneself to God”.

    Seeing how Jesus was all about the reconnecting with God thing, how can you say “religion” is not what he was about?

  • John C

    @Boomslang-

    Yes, I could be wrong about certain positions within context, but I dont spend my time war’ing with myself, I abide in Him, in joy, in peace and let Him reign, live His life through me…that’s the gospel. If I was so inclined I could get into endless, pointless ‘discussions’ with academic christians about various doctrines, etc…but that would only be self-defeating, not life-giving.

    Why do you think I hang around here? I sincerely enjoy the various discussions and since I have no reputation of my own to preserve, I am not offended by the responses because you can’t offend a dead man…or did you not know that I died w/Christ, that is my old Self and now my (real) life is hidden in Christ w/God? There is such liberty in appropriating the deeper truths in our inner man.

    Since no one believes me anyway and thinks I’m nuts, I pose no danger…right?

    I appreciate you Boomslang

  • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

    @ John C

    When you quote scripture at people, as you did earlier in this very thread, you are being religious.

    When you invoke the name of a specific, particular kind of “god”, as you did earlier in this very thread, you are being religious.

    When you reference a certain kind of religious tradition, and a specific kind of teaching, as you did earlier in this thread, you are being religious.

    Your “spiritual but not religious” claim is not merited.

    If it isn’t merited, then you have done a very poor job of communicating, because you keep “tying back” to religion time and time again, yet you continue to insist that you stand distinctly apart from it.

  • Elemenope

    John C –

    So here’s your conundrum. How do you construct a spiritual path that avoids being “such a turn off, not what [a person's] heart was looking for, etc.” while still telling women that, no, they can’t control their own bodies.

    Seems like a real problem, if you ask me.

  • John C

    @Elemeno-

    Excellent question, thx…when I employ the term ‘religion’ I am referring to the rigid, historical, institutional church (IC) perception that claims to represent ‘God’ to the masses. This is an external, political organization with no true internal change of nature, that being a ‘partaker of the divine’ nature which is what Christ truly offers in the restoration you referenced. Most of the forum here uses the word religion assuming what they have witnessed in the world through the IC is what Christ came to bring.

    Religion…external…full of pretense….oppressive
    Christ…internal…a new nature (His)…within, liberating

  • Elemenope

    Uh, but John C, didn’t Jesus himself say to Peter to be the rock on which his church shall be built? And then Peter (with Paul) set up many of the structures and rules you here are complaining about?

    I would think if that’s not what Jesus wanted, he’d have been a teensy bit clearer about it, if not to us, than at least to Peter.

  • cello

    @ John C -

    Do you think that the “ChristChange” has to literally involve the name of Jesus? I mean, could someone experience the life changing love of Christ without actually knowing Jesus’ name?

    Billy Graham actually modified his views in his later life and said he believed some people were saved with out the literal profession of Jesus as Savior – but that God found a way to work in their hearts anyway. What is your opinion on this?

  • John C

    @Elemenope-

    No, He did not. Read it again please…He asked Peter a question, and Peter, by revelation from the Father answered Jesus…it was Peter’s answer that Jesus said He would build His church (ecclesia…meaning called out ones…we are all called, whether we respond is another matter altogether) on, not Peter himself.

  • John C

    @Cello-

    I appreciate the discussion. I am not aware of any such revision in his ministry, but admittedly am not a big follower of said ministry, not that I have anything against it. I think it is somewhat incomplete, a minimal start if you will on the spiritual path. So many who make a “profession of faith” get caught up in erroneous church doctrines, religious mess and never fully enter into the spiritual realm.

    Keep in mind the name “Jesus” has been so denegrated, so demeaned that it automatically assumes a negative connotation…scripture is clear that…”there is no other name under heaven by which we are made whole, saved”.

    JC

  • cello

    @ John C

    Thanks.

    scripture is clear that…”there is no other name under heaven by which we are made whole, saved”.

    Okay, I have to give you a little ribbing here. Why could this not be………code?!

    Actually, that is a serious question. Maybe this is code meaning that there is no other method to be saved except by the method that Jesus taught (love God above all else and love your neighbor like yourself)?

  • John C

    @Cello-

    What does the saying mean…in the name of Jesus? Surely you have heard that term many times right? Most professing believers hardly understand it. It means literally in His stead, as Him. Sp, what/who was/is He then? Son of God. What does that make us then? Sons of God. His disciples asked Him to teach them to pray right? He starts our with…”Our Father which is in heaven”. So what does that make us? We had so lost our identities, our original paternity, spiritual lineage that He had to come and remind us who Daddy really is.

    The scripture you referenced was in response to a question…what is the most important commandment? His response? Love God with all your heart, soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself…like you said.

    I’m telling you with all my heart that the true message Jesus brought was not one of religion…but of life, a change of nature from the old, corruptedm inherited one to His…residing in us. He said “I will be IN you and you will be IN me”….sorry, I’m getting a little long-winded…err worded now and off our original discussion point.

    Btw…I define religion as endless, pointless rule-keeping devoid of the motivation of love. Its not rule-keeping that God wants, but our love. When we love Him we will naturally want to honor, please Him and it brings such peace.

    Sorry so long…thx

  • John C

    So we hear words like…”as many as believed on His name (God in the flesh) He gave the right to become children of God…again. John 1:12

  • John C

    I loathe religion as much as the rest of the forum…its such a bondage, thats why Jesus had such a problem with the religious leaders of the day…He was not one of them. And neither should we be…its so oppressive, confining. Truth is always liberating…He whom the Son sets free is free indeed…you shall know the Truth (truth is a Person) and Truth shall MAKE you free…does that sound like…religion?

  • Elemenope

    …it was Peter’s answer that Jesus said He would build His church (ecclesia…meaning called out ones…we are all called, whether we respond is another matter altogether) on, not Peter himself.

    Uh, no.

    And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

    Jesus is definitely talking about the guy, not the admission of Christ; “on this rock” clearly refers to the antecedent “you”. Even “Peter” means “rock”, literally; Jesus is just having a little fun with the name.

  • John C

    @Elemeno…

    You are reasonable…please hear me. Lets go back…Jesus asked His disciples (Peter being among them) this question…”who do men say that I am”. Some (not Peter) answered saying…some say that you are elijah, or john or one of the prophets (meaning, they didnt really know) and then Peter said “you are the Christ, the son of the living God” and Jesus responded saying “you’re right, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my Father in heaven did.. Now Peter got the revelation of who Jesus really is from Father God, spiritually deduced, not humanly revealed (and so must we).

    Now go back to the original question…who do men say that I am?? Peter gets it righ by revelation from the Father and now Jesus responds and says…and you are Peter…upon this rock I will build my church…what’s the rock? Knowing by revelation one another’s true identity. Thats our problem, we dont know who we really are, where we come from, our spiritual paternity.

    Who do men say that I am…thou are the Christ, the son of the living God…yes…you are right and you are Peter…upon this (understanding) rock I will build my church…not on Peter…but on revelation knowledge that Jesus is the saving one, the messiah…God in the flesh and we are invited into His family.

  • John C

    Or maybe a better way to say it…I know you and you know me…intimate knowing, relationship is the rock, not Peter himself.

    Right, thats my real identity…and you are Peter…and upon this rock (I know you and you know me) I will build our relationship…after all, its all about relationship.

  • Elemenope

    You are reasonable…

    Thanks. :)

    …please hear me.

    Oh, I hear you. Doesn’t mean I can bring myself to agree. I’m sorry, John C, but that’s quite a stretch from the text from what I can see. The far clearer reading is that Peter became qualified to be the rock of the church by getting the revelation from the Father about the identity of Jesus, and that Peter (the “you” that is continuously referenced in following passages) is thus the founder of the church. Otherwise you have a passage with a bunch of explicit “yous” broken (in a manner that doesn’t match natural speech/writing patterns in Greek, much less English) in the middle by a barely related metaphorical meaning.

  • John C

    @Elemeno-

    Ok…why did Jesus say…call no man on earth your Father?

    The catholic church (IC) is lays claim to this erroneous teaching…they call the Pope…Father???

    I promise you Elemeno…its the mutual recoginition (intimate knowing) that is the rock (the solid relational base) of His (true) church…called out ones. I’m 25 years into this intimate “knowing”…Peter himself is not “the rock”, but we all must have a “Peter” revelation experience if we want to enter in.

  • John C

    Peter is not here anymore anyway…how could he (himself) be a rock to anyone?? In that case it would be a very “dead” church…which it really…is.

  • Elemenope

    Ok…why did Jesus say…call no man on earth your Father?

    Not for nothing, but what did you call the guy who donated half his genetic to you?

    I suspect that Jesus was being all metaphorical with that one.

    Peter is not here anymore anyway…how could he (himself) be a rock to anyone?? In that case it would be a very “dead” church…which it really…is.

    Uh, “on this rock I will build my church”, as in, the rock is the foundation of the church, much as bedrock serves as the actual foundation of large buildings. The things he did (establishing the contours and structure of the church) was the “foundation”. He doesn’t have to be alive in order for him to be the foundation of the church that emerged from his decisions and teachings and interpretations of Jesus’ words.

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com/ wintermute

    John C:

    Uh, yeah. The fact that the name “Peter” literally means “rock” pretty much precludes the tortured reading you’re insisting on. Jesus explicitly named Peter as the head of his Church on Earth, and founder of his religion.

    To say that “you, person-who-is-called-’rock’, are the rock on which I build my church” actually means “that idea that you you just had, that is the rock on which I build… well, a personal relationship, I suppose” is quite a stretch. Are you sure you don’t see it?

    Ok…why did Jesus say…call no man on earth your Father?

    The catholic church (IC) is lays claim to this erroneous teaching…they call the Pope…Father???

    Is there no-one you call “father”? Like, maybe your male parent? Do you forbid your children to call you “father”?

    Peter is not here anymore anyway…how could he (himself) be a rock to anyone?? In that case it would be a very “dead” church…which it really…is.

    Yeah, that’s why he passed the torch on to someone less dead. According to the Catholic Church, that has happened continuously ever since. According to the Orthodox Church, too, but I think they disagree on the exact details of the line of succession after 1054 or thereabouts.

  • John C

    When Jesus said…call no man on earth your Father what did He mean by that? Seems kinda silly huh?

    It means that we should not assume our lineage from a human descent…for….(once we are spiritually regenerated) we are not born of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of the will of God…John 1:13.

    Jesus was saying “do not say you are OF man”, you are OF God.

    Peter is not the rock…you need to appreciate that each one of Jesus’ disciples are “steps”, phases we go through in our spiritual development…what does John represent…Nathaniel??

    There is so much more than what meets the eye.

  • marcion

    “So Republicans, Conservatives, Libertarians, etc…, none of them have abortions? Only Democrats?”

    Exactly. And Rhinos too.

  • John C

    @Marcion…

    What are you talking about man? I mean…I’ve got the corner on being the forum nutjob you know…but everything has its price…I mean this thing is “golden”, I’m not just gonna give it away…but it could be your’s for say…$500k??

    LOL

  • chris

    If he’s a nutjob, why dose he bother you this much? You wrote a whole blog about it.

  • Elemenope

    And Rhinos too.

    I imagine you meant “RINOs”.

  • John C

    Cuz I’m the resident nutjob….lol

    I was joking, you…joke??

  • John C

    Sorry…typo…I meant….you know, joke?

  • lra364

    Thanks Val! I appreciate the support.

    I’m curious to know how many posters on this blog who are against abortion are actually FEMALE?

    It seems to me that MEN argue against abortion because, you know, they have NO CHANCE of facing pregnancy themselves.

    Men who declare what women should do with their bodies for religious reasons are OPRESSORS! If they actually had to deal with the realities of possible pregnancy, I’m pretty sure they’d sing a different tune!

    That is not to say that there aren’t plenty of women who buy into their own oppression. Sad really. These are women who also would agree that wives should submit to their husbands.

    People against abortion never consider what happens to the child after it is born. They never consider the immesaurable suffering that many of these children go through. They never consider that broken children become broken adults who they demand spend time in cruel prisons for their “sins” (of course the ultimate prison is hell).

    Christianity is supposed to be about god’s love, but ultimately it ends up being about god’s wrath. It is completely inhumane and I have trouble understanding why any RATIONAL person would ever be a christian!

  • John C

    I’m not sure you’ve ever met a real Christian…lover of God. You have to admit Ira, your own tragic experience w/religion has jaded (and rightly so) your viewpoints, no?

    You’ll know when you’ve met one…cuz the love will be all you remember.

  • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

    @ John C,

    I know when I’ve met decent, kind, loving, supportive people.

    Atheist, Christian, Muslim, etc. And you know what?

    They all acted pretty much the same.

    And the jerks that I met? Whether atheist, Catholic, Protestant, non-denominational…they acted the same way, too.

    I fully realize the limits of anecdotal evidence, but I cannot let you make that claim when my experience has shown it to not be fully accurate.

    Though one or both of us could easily be wrong due to the usually poor nature of anecdotal evidence, I admit, I must reply that I have experienced what you mention with many types of people, and I have also experienced disappointment and frustration with many types of people.

  • John C

    You shall know them by their fruits. Pure, sacrificial love is hard to deny when you see it. I’m talking Tele about the kind that can only originate from God, that is not inherent in man.

    Keep your eyes open…the journey is not over my friend.

  • Elemenope

    You shall know them by their fruits. Pure, sacrificial love is hard to deny when you see it. I’m talking Tele about the kind that can only originate from God, that is not inherent in man.

    This tendency, here, to give God credit for the rare times that humans manage to be good, seems to me to be the worst part about believing in God. It radically devalues the worth of human beings.

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    You shall know them by their fruits. Pure, sacrificial love is hard to deny when you see it. I’m talking Tele about the kind that can only originate from God, that is not inherent in man.

    Was Gandhi a Christian? What about the Buddha? Or is “the kind [of sacrificial love] that can only originate from God” beyond even what they demonstrated? Can you think of anyone alive who embodies such love?

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    “I’m not sure you’ve ever met a real Christian…lover of God.”

    Phone call for Mr. Scottsman . . Mr. True Scottsman?

  • latsot

    Does anyone really take seriously the suggestion that men are by definition unable to comment on abortion? Ploddingly, I don’t understand what disqualifies me from having an opinion on this just because I’m the possessor of a marvelous penis*.

    In any given pregnancy, I’d personally agree that those who have to do all the work ought to have the casting vote , but I think I’d also be justified in being upset if someone aborted my baby without consulting me. Why does one trump the other?

    * WARNING: may not be marvelous

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    Does anyone really take seriously the suggestion that men are by definition unable to comment on abortion? Ploddingly, I don’t understand what disqualifies me from having an opinion on this just because I’m the possessor of a marvelous penis*.

    Well, I don’t think that we men get no vote on the matter. I do think that the person most likely to face serious medical problems, possibly up to and including death, should have the final say, no matter what her significant other’s opinion is. But, like all major decisions that affect couples, it should be made jointly, and they should come to mutual agreement. Anything else will just destroy the relationship.

    On the other hand, unrelated men (such as the woman’s pastor, congressman, or someone who likes writing letters to the editor) really shouldn’t get a vote on this matter. But then, nor should unrelated women.

  • Val

    Ira364,

    I think a lot of the anti-choicers are female.

    The underlying true motive is hatred of women. Or, for the females, hatred of other women.

    The long debate over whether an embryo is a human life, and wack-jobs saying abortion is Satanic (the original subject here), and especially “how should women who have an abortion be punished”, are all laid to waste when you cut through to the underlying motives.

    Note that an entire forum here is about anti-choicers want to – note the two words – PUNISH. WOMEN.

    First, they almost never mention punishing the men who did the impregnating.

    Second, notice that their focus is on punishment. They are punitive.

    Third, ask them what they have done to provide contraception, sterilizations, and vasectomies to PREVENT abortions. Tell them if they PREVENT all unwanted pregnancies, there will be no abortions for them to PUNISH.

    Tell them that the more they believe a conception is a human life that deserves protection, the more they would be out there making vasectomies and contraception easily available to everyone.

    Then you find out that they pretend to be concerned about *stopping* abortion – but NOT *preventing* it. Therefore, they must want abortions around as something they can punish.

    If you press this logic on them, someone eventually says, “Women have a choice – if they don’t want a pregnancy, they can abstain from sex!”

    There is their true motive. They want women to be sexless, or if they have sex, they must be mothers. They want women to be punished for sex by being either (1) undergoing forced birth, or (2) punished for having an abortion.

    It is either men wanting to control women, or women who have jealousy and hatred toward other women. For having sex without being tied to fear of pregnancy.

    There is no other logical explanation for the contradiction between their claimed beliefs and their (lack of) actions.

    If they deny it, tell them to get out there and provide the contraception and sterilization. They will attack you, but they will not do this simple thing.

    Grade-school biology backs the logic of doing it, but they refuse.

  • Elemenope

    Well, I don’t think that we men get no vote on the matter. I do think that the person most likely to face serious medical problems, possibly up to and including death, should have the final say, no matter what her significant other’s opinion is. But, like all major decisions that affect couples, it should be made jointly, and they should come to mutual agreement. Anything else will just destroy the relationship.

    On the other hand, unrelated men (such as the woman’s pastor, congressman, or someone who likes writing letters to the editor) really shouldn’t get a vote on this matter. But then, nor should unrelated women.

    I really like the way you put that.

    Phone call for Mr. Scottsman . . Mr. True Scottsman?

    LOL!

  • latsot

    “On the other hand, unrelated men (such as the woman’s pastor, congressman, or someone who likes writing letters to the editor) really shouldn’t get a vote on this matter. But then, nor should unrelated women.”

    Not on individual cases, no. But on how society deals with abortion in general, yes.

  • John C

    @Winter-

    Here’s one for your musing pleasure….

    There’s a Self in us and a Christ in us…and neither can be improved upon.

    Signed,

    Nutjob

  • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

    @ latsot

    “Does anyone really take seriously the suggestion that men are by definition unable to comment on abortion?”

    I agree that men should have the right to comment on abortion, though I also agree with what has already been stated by wintermute.

  • lra364

    Men,

    Comment if you like. But please don’t tell ME what to do with MY body!!!

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @lra364: Am I allowed to tell you that you should try and be healthy? Or is that crossing the line? ;)

    * * *

    And it’s a strange world when “John C” signs his own comment as “nutjob”!

  • lra364

    Daniel,

    Wouldn’t it be great if people took care of themselves? Wouldn’t it be great if people got educations that included genuine sex ed. with scientifically backed facts about our bodies? I wonder how Sarah Palin’s abstinence only program in Alaska public schools worked out for her? Hmm, maybe we should see how her children turned out. ;)

    Wouldn’t it be great if the church stopped telling us sex was dirty and started telling us to wait to parent until we had the moral maturity to do so? (After all, we have many methods of controlling whether or not we procreate).

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful if people had to obtain a license to parent? After all driving badly can hurt people, not following building codes can hurt people. Doesn’t bad parenting hurt people too?

  • lra364

    Just to get a jump start on possible responses,

    NO a little ball of cells doesn’t count as “people.”

  • Ty

    “Wouldn’t it be great if the church stopped telling us sex was dirty and started telling us to wait to parent until we had the moral maturity to do so?”

    This is why I don’t have kids. I’ll just never be mature enough.

  • John C

    Ira-

    So let me get this straight…you don’t appreciate anyone (much less society as a whole) telling you what to do with your body…but think a “parenting license” is a good idea?

    And just who would provide the oversight for said license?Maybe the “planned parenthood bureau” state office to be “licensed” parents?

    Hey, if we showed up already “with child” and then failed the parenting exam they could take care of business right there on the spot huh?

    You’re advocating socialism my dear…I suppose your a big Obama fan huh??

  • John C

    @Daniel…

    Was feelin kinda nutty…plus one of your readers gave me the name some time back…surprised you even noticed! ha

    NJ

  • lra364

    John C-

    There’s nothing wrong with people taking classes to learn how to parent. In fact it’s a good thing. Too many people have kids who shouldn’t.

    No, I don’t want to be *forced* to become a parent, but I DO want people who want to become parents to LEARN how to do so (or at least take a test to prove that they already know how to do so).

    I’m sure it would be a logistical nightmare, but one can dream, right?

    BTW Obama is not a socialist. He’s quite centrist.

  • lra364

    You know, now that I think of it…

    An oversight agency to prevent crappy parenting might actually create jobs! Think of all the psychology majors who could find work!

    :)

  • John C

    Ira…

    No Ma’am, you want people to parent from your worldview…just like I want people to consider a very different worldview. Kingdoms in conflict…that’s why there are forums like this one…cuz regardless of your or my opinion there will always be someone who holds another and perceives it as superior…which is right? Time will tell.

    Obama? Centrist? That’s another word for sissy. He needs to get off the fence or we’ll all have butt blisters before long.

    NJ

  • Ty

    Radical extremists are more you taste, eh JC? That doesn’t surprise me.

    “No Ma’am, you want people to parent from your worldview…just like I want people to consider a very different worldview. Kingdoms in conflict…that’s why there are forums like this one…cuz regardless of your or my opinion there will always be someone who holds another and perceives it as superior…which is right? Time will tell.”

    My kingdom includes rules like “don’t stick your baby in the microwave, or throw boiling water on them, or forget to feed them, or leave them in a dirty diaper until they get bedsores, or leave your abusive boyfriend alone with them.”

    How about rules like that?

  • lra364

    No, JC-

    I want people to realize that a baby cant sit in a pee pee diaper for 24 hours at a time.

    I want people to realize that hitting your kids teaches them violence.

    I want people to realize that kids need to get 10-12 hours of sleep every day (depending of course on age) and that keeping them up until midnight is not ok.

    I want people to realize that leaving 12 year olds and under alone all night long while you work is not ok.

    I could keep going…

    It has little to do with “worldview” and much to do with common sense about kids that actually doesn’t seem to be that common.

    Too many parents allow their kids to languish while they wallow in ignorance and selfishness.

    It is a pervasive problem in this country that costs money to tackle. Money that some (republicans?) would rather keep in multi million dollar accounts while they buy a new yacht as the economy tanks. IMHO.

  • John C

    Pretty goofy stuff there TY…not my kinda rules…but I’ll go along with it for fun if it makes ya feel better…lol

  • Ty

    “not my kinda rules”

    You’re more of a microwave and boiling water kinda guy?

    I have no idea how to parse about 80% of what you say.

  • lra364

    BTW, I worked for 2 years as a teacher to children with severe/profound mental retardation. Pretty much all of the parents I came into contact with were soooo great with their kids. Guess what? They had free access to education (from MHMR) about raising kids with special needs, and because they love their children, many took advantage of that.

    There was one mom who wasn’t so great. She had an IQ of 70 (borderline mentally retarded). She had 9 kids, three with severe conditions. They lived in a single wide trailer. Her son came to my class EVERY DAY wearing the diaper I put on him the afternoon BEFORE. He had lice constantly. Of course there was a social worker, but when social work budgets are as low as they are in this country, only the very severe cases get children removed from home (read: when it’s life threatening, never mind the long term damage). When I left my job (to go back to school), she was pregnant AGAIN!

    Yes, parent licensing is a GREAT idea!

  • Ty

    She was just filling her quiver with gifts from god.

  • lra364

    Ty-

    I’d laugh if it weren’t so very very sad.

  • John C

    Ira…

    You are obviously well meaning and passionate about your beliefs…that’s very admirable. I’m sure you have done much good for many kids.

    Child abuse is a real hot button for me. I have personally witnessed the horrors. Once, when I was a young X-ray tech working ER trauma they brought a 9 month old little girl into my room. She had died from physical abuse. I had to perform a complete skeletal series of exams for legal reasons, autopsy, etc. The irony is that I had a 9 month old little girl myself at the time and it was all I could do to perform my duties. It was just me and her little lifeless body in the room for a long time. I would shoot a film, cry, shoot a film, cry…by the time it was over my tears had turned to righteous indignation…I wanted to tear the guy’s head off who did this horrible thing, how could he?

    In all candor, it seems we actually have more in common than we might think.

    Tell you what…you go on loving and helping the best way you know how and I’ll do the same…how’s that for a start? Both doing our best, with passion…can’t ask for much more than that.

  • lra364

    Well, JC, you’re probably right.

    Abuse is a hot button issue for me because as I already told you, I lived it. I don’t think it’s enough to have opinions about it. I think real, widespread action should be taken. As I said earlier, I’m sure it would be a logistical nightmare, but one can dream!
    After all, if the IRS can deal with people’s taxes every year, then why can’t something more be done to prevent bad parenting?

    Or better yet! Sex ed based on scientific facts about our bodies and advocacy (or enforcement) of waiting to become parents until one can give the basics to a child.

  • Val

    @John C:
    “Ira…No Ma’am, you want people to parent from your worldview…”

    @John C:
    “Child abuse is a real hot button for me.”

    The Catholics have a concept called the “sin of omission”. It is failing to do something when you could have acted to do good.

    Have Thomas Euteneuer (the other nutjob with the website on Satanist abortion, remember?) or John C ever stepped away from the computer, stepped away from the demonstrations,protests and debates, given their mouths and keyboards and debate a rest, gotten off their asses, and done something useful, compassionate and helpful toward providing inexpensive, safe, easily available vasectomies and contraception to prevent pregnancies?

  • Val

    I vote for my above question as the new “How to Stump Anti-abortionists With a Single Question”.

    You’ll note that it doesn’t stop them – from verbally attacking anyone who asks it, and attempting to distract you and obfuscate the subject by changing the subject.

    They will blather about people (almost exclusively only women) having to be sexually responsible, and how if they are not, they should be “penalized” and “punished” by being forced to be breeders.

    Which shows their true colors, but they will deny being punitive. And they will never answer the question specifically with what they’ve done to help with contraception and vasectomies, because they never want to do this obvious preventive thing.

  • Christopher

    Typical of evil – justify it under the facade of law when history shows time and again that the rule of law is not always just. As for the imbecile that suggested taking the baby and raising it because we disagree with destroying it, I would advise you that most of us on the pro-life movement would take the child versus seeing it destroyed by the “mother” (a term I would rather refer to as the agent of birth only). Ever try to adopt a child? It is a long and laborious process most likely made that way by liberal lawyers to discourage and prevent loving homes from accepting these children. Yet another one of the lazy and cruel champions of the ever-diminishing ethics of society. Instead of being real parents and stepping up to the plate the easy way out is to kill my “unborn” child. Satan always endorses and presents the easy-out. We are most vulnerable when challenged. Make no mistake – this is true evil and is most likely perpetuated by those wishing to corrupt the souls of women and young girls. infanticide is the true name of this “procedure”. To defeat evil you must call it by its true name. In the words of Christ get thee behind me Satan! Stop corrupting our people with suggestions that the slaughter of the innocent is a right and a just cause. Abortion practitioners actually race to kill the child before the head shows because then it would be murder, but as long as we don’t have to see the child’s face or hear its first cry then it is just another medical procedure. As for pro-choice why not choose to protect life? Satan’s most prolific lie is to convince us he does not exist and that appears to describe the bulk of the comments left here. I pray that you all will see the light and undo this evil before it is too late. Be protectors and guardians of life, not the willful destroyers of it. Do not be pulled down the dark path that leads to damnation. The righteous road is always rocky and hard, but that is why so few of us travel it.

    • Just paying attn

      It always is greatly entertaining to read the comments here!
      One word comes to mind, whenever it comes to pro-lifers and their “murder” cry. Bigot!
      Why am I using such a strong word? Because the same crowd is firmly in the camp of Pro Death Penalty. Somehow they convinced themselves that it is only murder, when they dis-agree.
      As long as I don’t see the same fight in them against Death penalty, that they put up on the abortion front – I just can’t take them serious. Strictly from a moral point of view – ironic enough.

      Well funny when I was based in the world’s traditions I thought abortions and the death penalty were ok. As for the people that only think one is right, well atleast they are moving in the right direction. As for me now, I think both are wrong except in certain circumstances. That means if the mom is going to die or be complicated seriously, then let the mother chose whether to save her life or the kid’s. Dont just abort cause you had an “accident” while you were horny. As for the death penalty, I really dont like that under any circumstance. Prison in general needs reforming…prisons should be rehabiliting criminals. Prisons right now just make criminals even more dangerous so when they let them out, most of them are even more of a threat than before.

      Same goes when they try arguing from a scientific point of view. Irony again! Scientific arguments from a group that not even is capable of understanding the academic idea of a “theory”? And then tries to use, what they lightheartedly reject as nonsense when it comes to their cause, whenever it suites their case?
      Maybe they should start living what they preach. That might involve dying of curable diseases, since science is godless – but at least then they would be on the straight and narrow, no longer playing the pick and choose games, that they so seem to love.

      The problem is easily solved here, people shouldn’t seperate God and science. The only thing that needs seperating is lies from truth. In these times lies and truth are wrapped tightly together. God and science don’t have to be seperated, they prove each other.

      • Custador

        “people shouldn’t seperate [sic] God and science. The only thing that needs seperating [sic] is lies from truth”

        Can we all say oxymoron? Thanks to science we know that the creation myths of every “god” in history are just that – myths.

      • Sunny Day

        Science needs God like a fish needs a bicycle.

        • Just paying attn

          Science needs God like a fish needs a bicycle.

          Well if the fish only wants to swim, then it doesn’t need a bicycle. But if the fish is trying to do something amazing, riding a bike is quite a amazing for a fish. So the same with Science. If Science wants to help more people, if science wants be more efficient and find solutions quicker…I would argue that Science does need God.

          • Sunny Day

            Now all you have to do is show us the difference between Science with God, and Science without god.

            • Nox

              The difference between Science with god, and Science without god can be entirely summed up in five words: “Dinosaur Adventure Land Creation Museum”.

            • Just paying attn

              The difference between Science with god, and Science without god can be entirely summed up in five words: “Dinosaur Adventure Land Creation Museum”.

              Well God without Science can be described in few words also, infact God can be described in few words anytime. God: true LOVE. Thats not fake I love you when you do what I want…it’s true love you no matter what love: unjudgemental love.

            • trj

              Unjudgemental, as in: believe in me or burn in hell.

            • Jabster

              @trj

              Isn’t it amusing that god’s version of love and justice is nothing like our version of love and justice?

            • trj

              @Jabster:
              I often hear Christians say God is unconditional love. To which I say, if you believe God condemns humans to an eternity of torture for the simple transgression of not believing in him, his love is not unconditional and neither is it love.

            • Jabster

              @trj

              I think the standard answer is either a) we are limited in our understanding of god’s love or b) what god does defines love … I mean really, you wonder how anyone falls for this sort of bollocks.

            • John C

              “his love is not unconditional and neither is it love”

              Love’s unconditional conditions are such that you will, in the end, the summation of the ages, when the dispensation of the time is fulfilled (be (utterly persuaded by Love Himself, will finally see the wisdom of) plunging heart-long again (as you were with Him in the beginning, the Genesis of things, as we all were) into His great Father heart (for He is a consuming fire, consumes your insistence on the separation between you and Him) by the intense fire of His bright and eternally burning love, will not leave you orphaned, void of the Life, the Life of the ages.

              There is a heaven (ouranos in the greek is a more telling, descriptive word than the English translation ‘heaven’ since is implies a geographic ‘place’, but heaven is a whole different dimension, the realm of the spirit. and that same dimension or realm is within you. Luke 17:21. There is more to man than meets the eye.

              You future is bright, intensely so! All the best TRJ

            • Yoav

              Science with god: The sun orbits the earth, diseases are caused by evil spirits and can be cured by bloodletting and prayer.
              Science without god: the earth orbits the sun, diseases are caused by viruses and bacteria and can be prevented by hygiene and vaccines and treated with drugs developed by the weird idea that you should actually check if it works before you claim it does.

            • Just paying attn

              Science with god: The sun orbits the earth, diseases are caused by evil spirits and can be cured by bloodletting and prayer.

              The sun orbitting earth has nothing to do with God, that was people messing up stuff as usual. I keep telling yall this…there is a difference from God and what people say about God. That’s why I welcome you to do research by yourself…and not just follow people sayings. That is why I respond to every “decent” question you all have, and some not so decent ones (custador). Blood letting and the paradigm of a geocentric universe has nothing to do with God. We have free choice…so people can choose right or wrong…God isn’t going to force you to choose Him. But if I promise if you actually search for truth you’ll be suprised at how much lies you’ve been told…about everything.

              Science without god: the earth orbits the sun, diseases are caused by viruses and bacteria and can be prevented by hygiene and vaccines and treated with drugs developed by the weird idea that you should actually check if it works before you claim it does.

              What makes you think that Science without God? What people always thought was that God was some sort of genie. No wrong, God will help you to become the you that you were supposed to be….before you even left the womb. So just because people think God grants wishes doesn’t make them right. He answers prayers…so through work and faith you can achieve the special things you were born to do. Yes, sometimes He just blesses (gives) us with things. Most times though He gives us a plan and support, and if we follow that plan we will succeed. So those people who just thought they would be cured by just hoping that God would be your genie…they were wrong.

              For instance if you prayed to do better in school…and suddenly in your mind a plan popped up how to study and who to study with…but you just expected to get good grades cause God loves you (you’ll probably suck it up). But if you called or texted the people you were supposed to study with, set up times…then pulled out the material that you thought of after the prayer…and actually put the work in. Then guess what….you would get that grade you prayed for.

              The problem is….that people want a genie…not a God that helps them along to be the best they can be.

            • Custador

              “there is a difference from God and what people say about God.”

              So how do you “know” what you think you “know” about God? From what other people have said. There we go.

            • Kodie

              For instance if you prayed to do better in school…and suddenly in your mind a plan popped up how to study and who to study with…but you just expected to get good grades cause God loves you (you’ll probably suck it up). But if you called or texted the people you were supposed to study with, set up times…then pulled out the material that you thought of after the prayer…and actually put the work in. Then guess what….you would get that grade you prayed for.

              After a while, you sit down and think, how am I going to pass the test. Then you either hope you can do it by taking a nap or shooting hoops or drinking beers, or you already know what you have to do, and you do it. Nobody needs god to know what they have to do and think of it themselves. Where do you even suspect god entered the mind and directed an answer to the prayer to be a responsible human being? Help me god, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I’m too stupid to have any common sense, help me pick up the books and read them, help me call my study group. BuIIshittin’ insanity peppers is what that sounds like.

            • DarkMatter

              “But if you called or texted the people you were supposed to study with, set up times…then pulled out the material that you thought of after the prayer…and actually put the work in. Then guess what….you would get that grade you prayed for.”
              No brainer. It’s not like buying a winning lottery.

      • Just paying attn

        Can we all say oxymoron? Thanks to science we know that the creation myths of every “god” in history are just that – myths.

        Science has definitely not proved there is no God, what proof are you talking about? Just like you say I cant prove God’s existence, I say you cant prove He doesn’t exist.

        • Nzo

          You must have a reading comprehension problem. Thanks to science we don’t believe thunderstorms are the angry fist of a god punishing us for not sacrificing a virgin to him/her. Thanks to science we have explained almost everything attributed to gods in the past. Do you know what this means? Thanks to science we know that the creation myths of every “god” in history are just that – myths.

          • Custador

            He does, doesn’t he? At no point did I say “science has proved there is no God” (although science HAS proven that the Creationist version of the Judeo-Christian God doesn’t exist), and yet that’s the point he replied to. Even though nobody said it. Phuktardy Mc.Trollish Phuktard.

            • Just paying attn

              He does, doesn’t he? At no point did I say “science has proved there is no God” (although science HAS proven that the Creationist version of the Judeo-Christian God doesn’t exist), and yet that’s the point he replied to. Even though nobody said it. Phuktardy Mc.Trollish Phuktard.

              Lol Custador, you are so hilarious…you cant stand not to be derogative. If I was trying to figure what kind of person to be…I surely wont pick atheist just because of your assinine ways. You’re suck a jerk…you couldn’t be useful if you tried. You’re a horrible example of an atheist buddy, have you said anything that wasn’t snide. Just looking in you make atheist look bad.

            • Custador

              Yuhu – At least there was an argument in among my insults. You? You can’t refute the point so you just go for the insults and nothing else. You. Fail. Hard.

          • Just paying attn

            You must have a reading comprehension problem. Thanks to science we don’t believe thunderstorms are the angry fist of a god punishing us for not sacrificing a virgin to him/her. Thanks to science we have explained almost everything attributed to gods in the past. Do you know what this means? Thanks to science we know that the creation myths of every “god” in history are just that – myths.

            Well Happy Father’s day to you too. I understand there is nothing wrong with my comprehension…we just have differing opinions. Sceince has proved that fake gods are not responsible for things…but they aint prove anything about the one true God. Sceince cant explain everything…like I said we barely know what planets are. Pluto was a planet for a very long time, what is it now? Not a planet…according to sceince.

            By the way explain to me how you think the world was made?

            In conclusion, you’re a morally bankrupt, ignorant, selfish, childish, and dangerously stupid individual.
            Really Nzo…that is the epitome of a lying statement. Morally bankrupt…why because I want the child and the mom to live….because I want us to be more careful about sex…because I want us not to rely on abortion for all baby “mistakes.”
            Ignorant….because I understand that abortion affects more than just your party life…because I understand that it’s not really all about the mother as most here would want me to believe. Selfish…because I care about the mother and the baby. Childish…because I take an adult stand…even in a forum where everyone is against me….childish because I’m standing for morality…instead of following everyone to be accepted. Yea…thats childish. Stupid…because I support my thoughts with facts….because I support my ideas with experience….stupid because I battle every point with facts and reasoning. Why are you lying so much?
            If you disagree with me fine….but dont lie to get your point across.

            It is a fact that the “baby” is a parasite until it is able to survive out of the womb without the mother or extensive medical equipment. The fact that you’re not dealing with this tells me that you really don’t have a good answer for your stupidity and ignorance on this subject.

            Wow. So you think babies are parasites…just because of the definition of parasite? Tell me why a baby is a parasite?

            Anywhere from %10-%25 of ALL pregnancies end in miscarriage.
            The first question is why are they ending in miscarriages…I can guarantee you that most of those moms are not caring for the pregnancies correctly. 2ndly aren’t you supposed to be citing that fact? Where’d you get it from?

            By the way Nzo…how are you going to quote one of the facts I put up there, and then say….I dont have any facts?

            • Nzo

              Sceince has proved that fake gods are not responsible for things…but they aint prove anything about the one true God

              Moronic statement, indicative of a reading comprehension issue coupled with a severe lack of knowledge about science.

              Science has not proved anything about “gods”. There is just no evidence for anything supernatural in the history of ever. There’s also no evidence that separates your god from any other imaginary creature.

              Pro tip #1 – Spell “science” correctly and you won’t seem like such a moron.

              Sceince cant explain everything…like I said we barely know what planets are. Pluto was a planet for a very long time, what is it now? Not a planet…according to sceince.

              Another statement of abject stupidity. We know what planets are made of, and how they’re made. Pluto isn’t a planet because the IAU (that’s International Astronomical Union) created an official scientific definition of the word “planet” in 2006. Your argument is based on the lack of an official definition, and even then doesn’t make any sense.

              By the way explain to me how you think the world was made?

              4.54 billion years ago, probably by shockwaves of a supernova, or gravitational collapse. Yes, we DO know how planets are made.

              why because I want the child and the mom to live….because I want us to be more careful about sex…because I want us not to rely on abortion for all baby “mistakes.”

              You probably haven’t adopted any children, or handed out condoms, but I guarantee you’ve told some kids somewhere to never have sex. You think somehow that this is effective, but it’s really no more effective than prayer. Kids are going to have sex whether you like it or not, and bible-thumping concern-trolling never helped anyone… ever.

              Ignorant….because I understand that abortion affects more than just your party life…

              Ignorant, because you christians muddying up the medical field with your fake pro-life crap. Abortion would happen more often than it does without you morons, and I’d consider that a GOOD thing. Why? Because I’m actually the pro-life, pro-family person here. There are FAR too many starving, neglected, beaten, and institutionalized children in this world. You seem to think that the survival of a few cells is more important than the quality of life for millions of possible children. Morally bankrupt? YES YOU ARE.

              because I understand that it’s not really all about the mother as most here would want me to believe.

              Of course not, it’s about the quality of life of the child… well, for ME it is. You don’t really care as long as your preacher thinks your sky-daddy approves of what happens.

              Selfish…because I care about the mother and the baby.

              Selfish, because you don’t care about either one.

              Childish…because I take an adult stand…even in a forum where everyone is against me….childish because I’m standing for morality…instead of following everyone to be accepted. Yea…thats childish.

              You take the child’s stand. The “I listen to my preacher and what I think my god wants” stand. Nobody really cares what your own personal sky-daddy thinks, you’re a monster for your views on this subject.

              Stupid…because I support my thoughts with facts….because I support my ideas with experience….stupid because I battle every point with facts and reasoning. Why are you lying so much?
              If you disagree with me fine….but dont lie to get your point across.

              Stupid because you have ZERO (read: 0, none, less than 1) facts with which to support your stance. Experience? DO TELL! Stupid because your reasoning is that of someone deserving a straight jacket.

              Me, lying? Hasn’t happened. You? You have lied, denying you’ve done so would be adding to your lies. Surely I don’t have to tell you that claiming you’re presenting facts when you’re not is a lie. Claiming that science has “proved that fake gods are not responsible for things” is a lie… need I go on?

              Wow. So you think babies are parasites…just because of the definition of parasite? Tell me why a baby is a parasite?

              Yes, a baby is a parasite until it is capable of surviving without the mother or a stupid amount of medical equipment, It’s NOT a human until it can, hence why abortion is not murder.

              The first question is why are they ending in miscarriages…I can guarantee you that most of those moms are not caring for the pregnancies correctly. 2ndly aren’t you supposed to be citing that fact? Where’d you get it from?

              By the way Nzo…how are you going to quote one of the facts I put up there, and then say….I dont have any facts?

              I can guarantee that you don’t really have a clue about how those moms are caring for their pregnancies. I can also guarantee that saying what you did about those moms is pure sophistry and really quite a disgusting claim on your part.

              Citing sources? Here ya go.

              http://www.allaboutlifechallenges.org/miscarriage-statistics.htm
              http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/miscarriage.html
              http://www.amazingpregnancy.com/pregnancy-articles/337.html
              http://miscarriage.about.com/od/riskfactors/f/miscarriagestat.htm

              I figured I was being rather generous on the statistics. Either way, it’s ALWAYS above %10, which is a LOT, wouldn’t you say?

            • Nzo

              bah, left a tag out… sorry guys!

            • Sunny Day

              “Ignorant, because you christians muddying up the medical field with your fake pro-life crap. Abortion would happen more often than it does without you morons, and I’d consider that a GOOD thing”

              (ahem) I’m inclined to think Abortions would happen less without the Fake Pro-Life Theists standing in the way of comprehensive sex education programs.

            • Just paying attn

              Moronic statement, indicative of a reading comprehension issue coupled with a severe lack of knowledge about science.

              Science has not proved anything about “gods”. There is just no evidence for anything supernatural in the history of ever. There’s also no evidence that separates your god from any other imaginary creature.

              Pro tip #1 – Spell “science” correctly and you won’t seem like such a moron.

              Nzo come on…I hope you dont think because you bruted this argument you’ve done any disproving of God. As for spelling science…oh that was such a good point. Please after all these responses…I have one mispelled word…and that proves what? Please let me know.

              Also I can comprehend very well, we just dont agree so if that means you will lie that I’m not comprehending…then it let it be so.

              Another statement of abject stupidity. We know what planets are made of, and how they’re made. Pluto isn’t a planet because the IAU (that’s International Astronomical Union) created an official scientific definition of the word “planet” in 2006. Your argument is based on the lack of an official definition, and even then doesn’t make any sense.

              Lol. Did you see what you just said? So you’re saying that science accepted that pluto wasn’t a planet…but it’s not science contradicting itself. Hmmm…now that doesn’t make any sense. So one day it’s a planet and the next it isn’t….yet it’s so stable? Man please science is in constant developement…and it brings many good things…but it’s far from all knowing.
              What really doesn’t make sense is your fake-water tight argument. If science was as air tight as you presented…scientist wouldn’t constantly be disproving each other. They cant even agree on the effects of green house gases!!!

              4.54 billion years ago, probably by shockwaves of a supernova, or gravitational collapse. Yes, we DO know how planets are made.

              Lol…you just lied again. You went from probably created by supernova shockwaves to we DO know how planets are made. So thats another lie, and nobody knows exactly when the world was started…dont try that with me.

              You probably haven’t adopted any children, or handed out condoms, but I guarantee you’ve told some kids somewhere to never have sex. You think somehow that this is effective, but it’s really no more effective than prayer. Kids are going to have sex whether you like it or not, and bible-thumping concern-trolling never helped anyone… ever.

              Haha, did you actually say that. So you think everyone is responsible enough to have sex? Just because people do things, doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t recommend them not to do it. You could be cutting your wrist everyday, and I shouldn’t tell you no because you do it all the time….or cause it didn’t work the first time I told you. So your big plan is never telling people when they are wrong? Wow.

              Just because people are not using your method to solve a problem….doesn’t mean they cant be effective. Why do you think people have to pass out condoms to be against abortion?

              —–aight I’m going to reply to the rest in a second response.

            • Just paying attn

              Ignorant, because you christians muddying up the medical field with your fake pro-life crap. Abortion would happen more often than it does without you morons, and I’d consider that a GOOD thing. Why? Because I’m actually the pro-life, pro-family person here. There are FAR too many starving, neglected, beaten, and institutionalized children in this world. You seem to think that the survival of a few cells is more important than the quality of life for millions of possible children. Morally bankrupt? YES YOU ARE.

              Nzo you are far from pro-life and pro-family. How can you claim to be pro-life/pro-family…when you take life and cut off the thing itself that continues family? If there aren’t any more kids then how will families continue (the family name, tradition, and lineage will die off with the kids). You are many things…but you are definitely not pro-life. Pro-life and killing don’t really belong together. It’s like you telling me you support forest growth, yet you destroy the seeds planted in the ground. It makes no sense Nzo.

              Of course not, it’s about the quality of life of the child… well, for ME it is. You don’t really care as long as your preacher thinks your sky-daddy approves of what happens.

              Well first of all…yes I do care about what God thinks. See if you actually did your research…you’d see all God really wants to do is to love His creations. Unfortunately we do many unloving things…such as abortions…but He still loves us unconditionally anyway. As for you lying again and saying that I don’t care about kids…it makes me wonder about you. Do you lie and falsify all your arguments? Dude I clearly said I care about both, my words and actions back this up. You on the other hand just keep lying…why don’t I care about the kids? Because you said so…please dude…try again.

              You take the child’s stand. The “I listen to my preacher and what I think my god wants” stand. Nobody really cares what your own personal sky-daddy thinks, you’re a monster for your views on this subject.

              How am I a monster? Because I want both the kids and the parents to live…hmmm? Since when does a monster want people to live? So you’re the baby killer…and you’re not a monster? Where is your reasoning?

              Stupid because you have ZERO (read: 0, none, less than 1) facts with which to support your stance. Experience? DO TELL! Stupid because your reasoning is that of someone deserving a straight jacket

              Nzo…lie again and I’ll make you look stupid. I’ve posted facts on this very forum already. Either find out what you’re talking about, or be quiet…it’s simple. But next time you say that…I’ll show these people what a liar you really are.

              Me, lying? Hasn’t happened. You? You have lied, denying you’ve done so would be adding to your lies. Surely I don’t have to tell you that claiming you’re presenting facts when you’re not is a lie. Claiming that science has “proved that fake gods are not responsible for things” is a lie… need I go on?

              Nzo…Nzo…Nzo….I’m already proving that you are just continuously lying. Yes, you do need to go on…I like watching you dig yourself into a deeper hole. Don’t worry though I’ll help pull you out once you’re done shoveling dirt on yourself. No need to leave you in a hole by yourself.

              Yes, a baby is a parasite until it is capable of surviving without the mother or a stupid amount of medical equipment, It’s NOT a human until it can, hence why abortion is not murder.

              Ahhh…your true colors. So a baby is actually a parasite, huh? So the joy, love, and unforgettable memories they give their parents…that’s meaningless I guess huh. The very things(feelings, thoughts, reasoning) that separates humans from all other things…is meaningless huh? So let me ask you…are handicapped people parasites…are blind people parasites….are deaf people parasites…what about those that have been in accidents and cant care for themselves…parasites…. Hmmmm? So Mr. Fake pro-life/pro-family…we see what you truly are.
              Answer this…who is the monster now? Stop hiding behind your supposed titles…you think babies are parasites and that’s why abortion isn’t murder…well with that kind of reasoning…you can kill anybody who isn’t fully taking care of themselves. Mr. “Pro-life” have you run into any orphanages, elderly homes, or hospitals…and killed any parasites lately? Who is the monster now….Nzo, who?

              I can guarantee that you don’t really have a clue about how those moms are caring for their pregnancies. I can also guarantee that saying what you did about those moms is pure sophistry and really quite a disgusting claim on your part.

              Nzo, I don’t know what to say to you anymore…if you believe people that need care are parasites I cant reach you. I pray God can.

            • Elemenope

              Who is the monster now….Nzo, who?

              For some reason the numerous ellipses and the didactic tone force me to read this post in the voice of Eric Cartman.

              It was either that or William Shatner.

            • Yoav

              Lol. Did you see what you just said? So you’re saying that science accepted that pluto wasn’t a planet…but it’s not science contradicting itself. Hmmm…now that doesn’t make any sense. So one day it’s a planet and the next it isn’t….yet it’s so stable?
              Damn you’re stupid. Your lack of understanding is just exceptional. No one claim Pluto have changed but in the 80 odd years since it was discovered we have learned a lot more about the solar system. We now know that Pluto is only one of a large number of similar bodies in the outer reach of the solar system. The IAU have refined the definition of a planet and since Pluto doesn’t fit the definition it was reclassified as a kuiper belt object (the new definition for the large number of Pluto like bodies we now know exist). This is in no way science contradicting itself.

            • Nzo

              I hope you dont think because you bruted this argument you’ve done any disproving of God

              Idiot… I have to disprove your god like you have to disprove santa clause. They don’t exist because you can’t prove they exist. The person making the supernatural claim has to have the evidence, NOT the one saying “sorry, your version of the FSM isn’t real”.

              So one day it’s a planet and the next it isn’t

              Idiot… it’s a DEFINITION issue.. it’s where to draw the line between a planet and a “dwarf planet”.

              It’s like, Is the tomato a fruit or vegetable? The supreme court finally weighed in on the subject, but it was heavily debated. This doesn’t mean that scientists do not know what a tomato is.

              Man please science is in constant developement…and it brings many good things…but it’s far from all knowing.

              Come get me when you find some proof that something is “all knowing”.

              Let me save you some time on that one though. You can’t. There is none.

              Lol…you just lied again. You went from probably created by supernova shockwaves to we DO know how planets are made. So thats another lie, and nobody knows exactly when the world was started…dont try that with me.

              I didn’t lie. We KNOW how planets are formed, we do NOT know exactly what triggered our planet to form, but we DO know how old the earth is. It’s not a lie, moron, if you knew the difference between a fact and an imaginary being, you’d know this.

              http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/962/
              http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/solar_system_level2/planets.html

              It’s not that hard to find facts, moron.

              What really doesn’t make sense is your fake-water tight argument. If science was as air tight as you presented…scientist wouldn’t constantly be disproving each other. </blockquote

              You make it sound like nothing ever gets done in the science community because they're "constantly disproving each other". If you really believe science is that useless I'd suggest you try the Amish lifestyle. Also, is it watertight, or airtight?

              Either way, you're still an idiot for not understanding that the demotion of Pluto from "planet" to "dwarf planet" is just a f*cking definition issue, and NOT any kind of useful fodder for fundies to use against atheists.

              None of this really matters though, because you have no evidence for your claims of supernatural sky-daddies, you have no ground to stand on when trying to bash science. Don't you love how that works?

            • Nzo

              grr, messed up on the tag again.

          • Just paying attn

            I’d like to know about these “alternatives”. I can almost guarantee that you aren’t out there handing out condoms in front of an abortion clinic.

            Do you ever respond to posts where you can’t twist the words around to suit your purposes?

            I dont have to hand out condoms at an abortion clinic….that clearly hasn’t been working. That tactic has been done many a time. Prevention…has to be before the act…that is what prevention is. Most of the time people dont want to even use condoms during sex, and if it slips off…people just want to leave it off. I know personally…from my own experiences and from conversations with other people. Condoms are looked at as lessening the pleasure of sex…thats why they keep trying to make more “pleasurable” ultra thin condoms.

            Condoms are half-prevention especially when so many people dont really want to use it. What needs to be done is that people get educated about how to avoid certain situations if they dont want to go through things like abortion. You dont need to be with that certain person alone…if you really dont want a relationsip. You don’t need to drink or smoke with that person…who probably is just waiting for the opportunity to get some. Things like that. Real Prevention….not the fake kind. You cant have sex with the person if yall aren’t physically next to each other. We have to make sure that sex counts for something, besides just a hump session.

            My purposes…I just want people to stop aborting so much. What’s so bad about that?

            • Nzo

              Prevention…has to be before the act…

              Hahahaha… “prevention” statistics are embarrassing. The idea that you can tell men, women, or children to not have sex might be all nice in theory, but in reality you’re wasting your time. Honestly, do a little research before you start talking like you know something on this forum.

              http://www.thebody.com/content/news/art55275.html
              http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_12/016223.php
              http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR2007041301003.html
              http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18093769/

              Again, ABSTINENCE PROGRAMS DO NOT WORK. There’s no wiggle room here, your efforts in that direction are futile.

            • Just paying attn

              Hahahaha… “prevention” statistics are embarrassing. The idea that you can tell men, women, or children to not have sex might be all nice in theory, but in reality you’re wasting your time. Honestly, do a little research before you start talking like you know something on this forum.

              http://www.thebody.com/content/news/art55275.html
              http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_12/016223.php
              http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR2007041301003.html
              http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18093769/

              Again, ABSTINENCE PROGRAMS DO NOT WORK. There’s no wiggle room here, your efforts in that direction are futile.

              So you’re saying that just because there are fat people….then people shouldn’t diet and exercise. Yea some diets and exercise dont work…but it’s mostly cause people dont have control. Same with people and driving drunk…just because people still do it…should cops not arrest people for drunk driving?

              The only reason sexual prevention doesn’t work…is cause most people dont have control during sexual activities. Yea sex is good and great, but you still need to have control….or else we’ll be in the situation with abortion that we are now. Everyone using it to correct the sexual mistake they made, even though the unborn boy/girl that they kill…will become a baby if allowed.

              Dude I’m not condemning anyone…we all make mistakes….but let’s not just choose abortion so quickly. Just because we dont have great self control…doesnt mean we have to do the unborn babies like that.

            • Nzo

              You’re expecting a LOT of this “control” from people, aren’t you?

              Did you ever stop to think that people really wouldn’t care about your values enough to try to “control” their behaviors? No, you probably didn’t. If someone is fat, they have to live their life being fat and dealing with everything that comes with it… THEIR choice… NOT yours to tell them to diet and exercise. I wont’ even go into the stupidity of the drunk-driving laws, but no, cops shouldn’t have the right to arrest someone for doing no property damage, and not hurting anyone. It’s a victimless crime, like smoking weed or doing drugs. I’ve come to the conclusion that your morals were either beat into you at some point, or you just take whatever faux news says as truth.

              Your abortion argument is ignorant. Abortions are a good thing. Being anti-abortion means you really don’t give a sh*t about the mother or the possible baby. All you care about is what your preacher says your sky-daddy thinks about it.

              Dude I’m not condemning anyone…we all make mistakes….but let’s not just choose abortion so quickly. Just because we dont have great self control…doesnt mean we have to do the unborn babies like that.

              They’re CELLS, when most abortions take place. If there wasn’t such a fundie uprising against this healthy, moral choice, then all abortions would happen when the possibility of the baby was at a cellular level. They’re NOT “unborn babies” until much later on.

              Your moral compass is broken, along with your logic.

            • Nzo

              Also, READ the posts you’re responding to. You’re still advocating abstinence even though it’s shown to be the second most useless form of pregnancy prevention ever… right behind PRAYER.

            • Sunny Day

              “So you’re saying that just because there are fat people….then people shouldn’t diet and exercise.”

              Your reading comprehension seems to be just as broken as the rest of you.

  • Pingback: Abortion is a demonic industry. « spicewriterpost.com

  • kjpweb

    It always is greatly entertaining to read the comments here!
    One word comes to mind, whenever it comes to pro-lifers and their “murder” cry. Bigot!
    Why am I using such a strong word? Because the same crowd is firmly in the camp of Pro Death Penalty. Somehow they convinced themselves that it is only murder, when they dis-agree.
    As long as I don’t see the same fight in them against Death penalty, that they put up on the abortion front – I just can’t take them serious. Strictly from a moral point of view – ironic enough.
    Same goes when they try arguing from a scientific point of view. Irony again! Scientific arguments from a group that not even is capable of understanding the academic idea of a “theory”? And then tries to use, what they lightheartedly reject as nonsense when it comes to their cause, whenever it suites their case?
    Maybe they should start living what they preach. That might involve dying of curable diseases, since science is godless – but at least then they would be on the straight and narrow, no longer playing the pick and choose games, that they so seem to love.

    • Grumpygirl

      Totally agree. Those folks are also typically the ones who want to save the baby, but then not pay the “welfare” moms to bring them up. They don’t adopt all the poor kids whose families have abandoned them into foster care.

      One of the other things I never see is Catholics recalling their history that a pregnancy isn’t really a person until the quickening, or first movements. It used to be OK to perform abortions before the quickening until this century.

      There is also no respect for other religions who have different ideas of right and wrong for abortion. But that’s typical. Religious people figure that their religion/sect/cult is the only one that has the right spiritual information.

      One of the other things I find odd, too, is the all or nothing stance that is taken by prolifers and some prochoicers. It seems pretty clear that there is a very big difference between an 8 week embryo and a baby at 30 weeks, as commented above. It seems very wrong to me to kill a 30 week baby because that baby could survive out of the womb, with assistance.

      Since abortion has been legal in the US for so long, people have forgotten the huge hospital wards of women, infected and dying as a result of illegal and dirty abortions. It seems very wrong to me that women should die because they are so desperate to not be pregnant.

      For those reasons, I think abortion needs to stay legal, but as a society we need to decide where we ethically draw the line. Personally, the line of viability of the baby seems to be a natural legal limit.

  • Nox

    @ JustPayinAttn:

    “We can see a murder or rape on the news now, and we are just ok with it. We know it’s wrong.”
    -JPA (06-09-10)

    “Truthfully nothing has more morality than the Bible.”
    -JPA (06-09-10)

    “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
    -Moses (Numbers 31:17-18)

    That’s Moses there, author of the 10 Commandments. Commandmenting his followers to kill all the males and adult females of a competing tribe, then keep the young girls and rape them.

    I’m guessing you haven’t ever actually read the bible.

    • Just paying attn

      Sorry I didn’t reply sooner, I had alot of extra work this weekend…so when I got freetime it was spent with my family or used to take small naps.

      I’m guessing you haven’t ever actually read the bible.

      Well actually Nox, I read the Bible everyday. I like reading and learning things for myself. So everytime I question God, I take it to Him in prayer and I check my Bible…and the truth always comes to light. Sometimes I don’t like the answer and sometimes it takes longer than I like to wait…but regardless the truth always comes to light.

      “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
      -Moses (Numbers 31:17-18)

      Well I’m glad you’ve atleast opened a Bible, some people talk about it without even knowing what’s inside. I hope more people follow your lead and check out the information they are so against, before they actually argue against it.

      So now for my first point, the time period they speak of are not under the same conduct of modern warfare. No people not Call of Duty…you can think about COD a lil later. Once a land was conquered, the winning army choose what to do with the spoils. That included which people to keep, and which materials were valuable enough to keep. This was performed by all lands…unless you were a nation that lost all the time of course. Why would you keep your enemies alive…unless you feel they are not a threat to your lives.

      Second point; they had an even more important life threating issue that lead them to kill all but a few people of their enemy’s country( Midianites ). The Midianites were leading God’s people to commit immoral acts, and God’s people also started sacrificing to other gods and worshipping other gods. The problem with that is that other gods promote immoral acts and with no remorse at that. God hates immoral acts, and so this was a clear cut contradiction between their gods and Him. It kinda sucked even more, cause when they did what God said, they all flourished…but they still betrayed Him.

      In Numbers 25:9 it tells you what happened to God’s people when they started becoming familar with the Midianites. Numbers 25:9 states “but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.” This plague came about from the Midianites and it killed 24,000 of God’s people. So what would you do, if you were living back then and you just conquered the land that gave your people the plauge? Get rid of those who are unclean or take the chance of another mass plague? There was only one group clean in mind and body, that was the younger women.

      By the way your assumption of rape is wrong, they didn’t rape them. I told you people kept the citizens who didn’t pose a threat to them. So those people were assimilated into the newer culture. Just because you were kept it doesn’t mean rape.

      That’s Moses there, author of the 10 Commandments. Commandmenting his followers to kill all the males and adult females of a competing tribe, then keep the young girls and rape them.

      Moses didn’t write the 10 Commandments…God did. This wasn’t a competiting tribe, they weren’t playing basketball with each other. They had a war, this was not the modern era, the whole land felt stress of war…and a bigger percentage of the people were involved in war. It’s not like now, where we can be at war with a country and most citizens not feel the stress of actual war battles.

      By the way they didn’t just pick the pure of the conquered tribe, the had to clean themselves, clean the survived from the conquered tribe, and clean all the items they collected. This is stated in Numbers 31:19-20 and Numbers 31:22-24;
      19 “All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”

      22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp.”

      So the cleansing was through out. I’m suprised you care about the kids though, considering that most people in here aren’t opposed to killing children.

      • Yoav

        Not that old line again. Make up your fuc*ing mind, either the buybull is the perfect word of god and a guideline to morality or it describes the practices of a bronze age tribal culture and shouldn’t be used as a model for how you should live your life. You can’t have it both ways.

      • Nox

        You are actually using the moral inferiority of the bible as evidence of the moral superiority of the bible? You were the one who brought up that jesus loves the little children bullshit? Wasn’t that you that said something like “Truthfully nothing has more morality than the Bible”? And now the fact that it was written by ancient goat herders with no concept of morality is proof that we should all accept it as an authoritative guide to the moral issues facing humanity in the 21st century?

        And most of the people here have a lot more knowledge than you do about the bible and the history of the judeo-christian god. When I said “read the bible” I meant read it. Like a book. Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 (many of us have, still guessing you have not). Not cracked it open to a random passage or your favorite psalm. Not read along with your pastor as he points out the passages he wants you to see. I’m sure you have read a couple bible passages. But many of the people you are trying to explain the bible to have Actually Read The Fucking Book!

      • Nox

        “Your comment is awaiting moderation.”? That’s new. I didn’t think “read the f***ing book” was any more offensive than “f*** yourself sideways”. Usually I would try to self-c*ns*r so as not to offend delicate readers.I just get kind of offended when christians defend genocide. But it’s not my board and I have been previously informed of the PG13 clause. So I’ll try this again, with *’s as needed. If Daniel or any of the mods feel the need to delete my last post I’m okay with that.

        You are actually using the moral inferiority of the bible as evidence of the moral superiority of the bible? You were the one who brought up that jesus loves the little children bulls***? Wasn’t that you that said something like “Truthfully nothing has more morality than the Bible”? And now the fact that it was written by ancient goat herders with no concept of morality is proof that we should all accept it as an authoritative guide to the moral issues facing humanity in the 21st century?

        And most of the people here have a lot more knowledge than you do about the bible and the history of the judeo-christian god. When I said “you haven’t read the bible” I meant read it. Like a book. Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 (many of us have, still guessing you have not). Not cracked it open to a random passage or your favorite psalm. Not read along with your pastor as he points out the passages he wants you to see. I’m sure you have read a couple bible passages. But many of the people you are trying to explain the bible to have Actually Read The F***ing Book!

        • Just paying attn

          Usually I would try to self-c*ns*r so as not to offend delicate readers.I just get kind of offended when christians defend genocide.

          Nox dont get so offended…we’re just having a conversation. Are you shocked that people have a different view? I know sometimes things can get steamy…it does for all of us. If it makes any difference I wasn’t horrified by your comments, I expected it. But we must follow the rules of the forum. But yea, I’m not mad. Think about it…look at all the stuff that people said about me and God….you think that doesn’t suck. People saying stuff about me like they know me… all I’ve commented on is the subject. That is abortion and why I think it’s wrong…now people cussing and going crazy like no one can disagree with their point of view. So I understand your passion…I have the same passion…we are just on different sides.

          You are actually using the moral inferiority of the bible as evidence of the moral superiority of the bible? You were the one who brought up that jesus loves the little children bulls***? Wasn’t that you that said something like “Truthfully nothing has more morality than the Bible”? And now the fact that it was written by ancient goat herders with no concept of morality is proof that we should all accept it as an authoritative guide to the moral issues facing humanity in the 21st century?

          But Jesus does love all people…did you see Jesus killing anybody…you read the Bible right? By the way….you do know that Bible has more than one author…it’s a collection of books…inspired by God. You said you read the Bible right(I’ve read it many times…and there is still alot to learn…it’s very deep and you can only truly begin to understand it if you have the help of the Holy Spirit)…so if you’ve read it from front to back…how come you always refer to it speaking about the past. It also has prophecy about the future…you know that right? The Bible is very real in dealing with the right now.

          And most of the people here have a lot more knowledge than you do about the bible and the history of the judeo-christian god. When I said “you haven’t read the bible” I meant read it. Like a book. Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 (many of us have, still guessing you have not). Not cracked it open to a random passage or your favorite psalm. Not read along with your pastor as he points out the passages he wants you to see. I’m sure you have read a couple bible passages. But many of the people you are trying to explain the bible to have Actually Read The F***ing Book!

          I can pretty much guarantee you that most people dont know about God like I do, I can tell that just by what they are saying. I’ve read it….in fact from front to back is how I first started reading it. The problem with that is…that I was only reading it for education. When I began to pray and read it like I was supposed to…it helped me become a more loving and focused person. I simply began to care more…and see more truth. The praying helped me find the passages that showed me my weaknesses…so that I could be strengthened through God. Reading the Bible all the way through allowed me to “brag about reading the Bible.” Reading the passages as they applied to my life…allowed me to see the falseness in me and around me.

          So here it is summed up. I’m not here to convert anybody…I’m here for us to get to the bottom of the truth. If you’re right fine…if I’m right fine… but all I want is when we find out the truth…that we dont cower from it…but pick a side and fight for the true side. Remember you haven’t seen me ask you to come to God…we are both just battling to see who is right. That’s why I cant really be mad at anybody here…our ideas are battling…that doesn’t make us bad people…no matter what side we are on.

      • trj

        What quaint ideas you have of purity and cleansing. The Israelites had to kill everybody in order to save themselves from a plague, except for all the desirable young female virgins who were somehow not afflicted by the plague. I’ve never heard that excuse before, that’s for sure. Apologetics hard at work.

        Also, it’s very naïve of you to think that the women would have any say in whatever their conquerers would do to them and very naïve to think their conquerers would somehow behave differently than such people have always done. “Keep [them] alive for yourselves”. That’s another way of saying: “They are your property, to do with what you like”. You think the soldiers wouldn’t force themselves on them? Please.

        Furthermore, the Israelites, in their many battles and subsequent full-scale exterminations, are often the aggressors (Judges 18 being a good example), invalidating the argument that they performed their many atrocities out of necessity. And anyway, the argument that it’s ok to set morals aside when necessary is itself rather dubious.

  • Nzo

    Siberia now this is a world class argument right here. Up to now alot of the comments made weren’t that good, they were masked insult tirades. But a few like these were/are really good.

    Not one of your arguments has been what any educated person would consider “good”.

    I was just addressing the subject line of this forum. Now abortion doesn’t make you evil, but people gotta stop making fairytales up on why they do it. Most of the reasons are selfish…it’s not usually cause the mother is about to die a horrible death by giving birth. But yes parents who are not ready for kids are almost just as bad as aborting…because the kids suffer. But thats when we have to look at alternatives…which they are many.

    Who needs to make up fairy tales about something they have every right to do? You really don’t know what “selfish” means, do you?

    I’d like to know about these “alternatives”. I can almost guarantee that you aren’t out there handing out condoms in front of an abortion clinic.

    Do you ever respond to posts where you can’t twist the words around to suit your purposes?

    • Nzo

      Bah, meant that as a reply to above. Oh well.

    • http://brgulker.wordpress.com brgulker

      I’d like to know about these “alternatives”. I can almost guarantee that you aren’t out there handing out condoms in front of an abortion clinic.

      This is an argument I really don’t understand.

      I like to think I have a somewhat moderate opinion on abortion, which I’ve discussed all I care to on this forum, which has led to some very interesting conversations. That said, this particular argument doesn’t make any logical sense to me. My objection, in a nutshell: rarely, if ever, would anyone apply this logic to any other morally objectionable practice.

      It seems that you’re saying that a person who is morally opposed to a certain action (in this case, abortion) should be actively trying to promote alternatives to that specific action (in this case, handing out condoms — or adopting unwanted children, or donating to adoption agencies, etc.).

      That’s certainly not a bad thing. I support agencies that help single moms bring their babies to term and put them up for adoption. I’d encourage people who share my views on abortion to do the same. But I do not believe that I, or anyone else, is morally obligated to do so.

      Let me try to apply the logic to other examples, to illustrate what I’m trying to get at.

      I’m opposed to gang violence. But I don’t jump in front of bullets from drive-by shootings in order to save potential victims of gang violence. I may choose to volunteer at after school programs to help keep kids from joining games — but if I don’t, am I a hypocrite?

      I’m opposed to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But thus far I haven’t volunteered with any agencies that are pursuing peaceful conflict negotiations. Am I a hypocrite?

      Would I benefit from doing either of those two things? I’m sure I would. And so would others. (and for the record, I do volunteer in my community).

      So why apply that logic to the person who objects to abortions? I don’t get it. It seems unreasonable to me.

      My wife and I will never have an abortion. Likewise, we will never engage in gang violence. Abstaining from the act that we view as morally objectionable is our only obligation, as far as I can tell. I’m not a hypocrite if I choose not to adopt children, hand out condoms, etc., etc., nor am I a hypocrite for not jumping into the middle of a gang initiation in order to prevent it from happening.

      Anyway, this is more of an aside than anything, because I’m really not interested in rehashing the abortion debate here. Just wanted to offer my take on one particular argument that’s used in the debate quite often that doesn’t appear to work (at least to me).

      • Ty

        While I agree that no one should be forced to hand out condoms if they are opposed to abortion, the fact remains that most anti-abortion activists are also opposed to anything other than abstinence for preventing unwanted pregnancies. Not really the karmically neutral stance you describe at all.

        • http://brgulker.wordpress.com brgulker

          That may be true. I don’t know if there are statistics that prove your point or not (intuitively, I’d agree, but don’t know for certain). But even so, I’m not sure that makes them hypocritical, which appears to be the point of the argument.

          That is, if they practice abstinence themselves, and if they have also abstained from abortions, then they’re perfectly consistent, regardless of how much one agrees with them or not — correct?

          • Ty

            Functionally, it becomes a weapon for enforcing your belief system on others.

            • Just paying attn

              Functionally, it becomes a weapon for enforcing your belief system on others.

              Dude, I’m not forcing anything on anybody….we just have a difference of beliefs…and are debating about it. It’s just like you saying the celtics are the best NBA team, and I say that the lakers are the best NBA team. We are just having a debate…but that doesn’t mean we are forcing ideals on each other. The debate will eventually solved on the court. As for our debate on abortion…that too is getting solved elsewhere.

            • Nzo

              I’m more inclined to say that our debate is more like Emotions and fairy tale creatures VS logic and science.

              On one hand, you have feel-good new-age head-in-the-clouds kind of thinking. You believe prayer works… but only if you MAKE it work (expressly NOT required for ANY prayer to work in the bible).

              On the other hand you have reasoned, measured, and morally superior arguments that you pay no attention to.

              I like how you completely side-step our arguments and make more inane rationalizations. Every argument you’ve made has been completely blasted, and you continue to wriggle and muddy the waters of the debate in a desperate attempt to proclaim yourself the victor.

              You’re like the guy who keeps fighting until he wins, no matter how many times he loses to get there. The really sad part is that you never will win. Ever.

          • Nox

            If someone is opposed to abortions and they express that opposition by not having abortions that in itself would not be hypocritical. In fact if it was left there that would be the exact opposite of hypocrisy.

            But if someone were telling women who are already facing a hard choice that one of the options (and quite often the best option) is tantamount to murder, and that person also actively opposed options (sex ed, birth control) which would reduce the number of women who are even faced with that choice in the first place (Thus Reducing Abortions By Default), then I would at least call them inconsistent if not hypocritical.

            • Just paying attn

              But if someone were telling women who are already facing a hard choice that one of the options (and quite often the best option) is tantamount to murder, and that person also actively opposed options (sex ed, birth control) which would reduce the number of women who are even faced with that choice in the first place (Thus Reducing Abortions By Default), then I would at least call them inconsistent if not hypocritical.

              Well I dont oppose sex education (as I’ve said before). Also just like I said before…you shouldn’t limit it to that simple teaching. You need to teach people that there is more to sex than just pleasure…you need to not only teach the pros…but also the cons. Not only that you need to tell people that just go running around and having sex with someone cause they are hot…that will eventually get you in trouble. When you do decide to have sex….you need to choose the person not only cause of their body…but also because of their character and personality. Really if you eliminate..the lusty encounters…you’ll eliminate many of the abortions that happen today.

            • Siberia

              Y’know, I rather doubt this. Many of the reported abortions in my country do not come from ‘lusty encounters’ – rather from people in stable relationships, sometimes for years, where the dude chickens out when the girl gets pregnant – that’s so very common. Also high it is among married women who just can’t handle yet another child.

              Soso, no.

            • Kodie

              Good luck with eliminating lusty encounters. It’s really none of your business why people choose to have sex with each other, but abstinence teaching does not work. You are divorced from reality. If it’s teenagers, it would be nice if they listened to why they should think and choose well before rushing into sex, but you should prepare for the eventuality that they are going to ignore your “sensibility” by teaching them (and taking your own, if you have them) about birth control birth control birth control. If it’s adults, it’s really none of your moralistic nosy-ness why people want to have sex with each other. Still, to reduce abortions, educating about birth control a lot more and making it more available is the answer.

              Now that I think about it, I’m actually appalled that you think you can judge people and dictate why they can and can’t have sex with each other if they want. That’s the creepiest thing about you and all your opinions. The world doesn’t go the way you want it to, and I’m sure you think it’s because not enough people care about your imaginary god, and just act all crazy and not moral like you want them to. It’s disturbing how much you can’t stand that things are the way they are because humans operate like humans do, and there is no god or moral law, or people praying away their hormonal urges and wait to find a suitable marriage partner before they have sex with each other. That’s fantasy and fantasy-based. No God Exists. Of course with all I’ve said, it’s only natural for people like you to think it all is their business, on behalf of mourning over people choosing sin over what’s good for them. No, I can’t control your behavior any more than you can control who has sex whenever they like, and I am left wishing you would mind your own business the same way you are wishing everyone would be chaste and choose their mates carefully, and not remove any clothing until they are married. Married people have abortions too, I’m not sure if that was said yet.

            • DarkMatter

              Are you refering to a time machine?

            • DarkMatter

              Just paying attn, are you refering to a time machine?

            • Nzo

              Well said, Kodie. Creepy is a terrific word for attn.

        • Just paying attn

          While I agree that no one should be forced to hand out condoms if they are opposed to abortion, the fact remains that most anti-abortion activists are also opposed to anything other than abstinence for preventing unwanted pregnancies. Not really the karmically neutral stance you describe at all.

          So do you think I’m like that. I’ve literally repeated my stance on finding alternative methods. The best method is making sure that the person you’re with is worth your time and worth the investment. Many parents who love each other, want to have kids with each other. When you just like a person, and just want their body…it’s kind of hard to think of being with them for life and procreating.

          You can check my statements though, I want abortions to be minimized…and I’ve talked about exploring different reasons too. But you wouldn’t think so though, cause of statements people are making. But look at my previous comments and you’ll see.

          • Kodie

            You are not living in the real world. You are living in a world you decide is morally correct and try to impose it on everyone else. “Saving” sex for marriage or even just a commitment and true love and mutual agreement that a child is wanted is a careless and ignorant attitude. You can’t control people that way, the best you can do is, in effect, hand out condoms. You don’t literally have to hand out condoms, but you should be in favor of all forms of birth control and in some capacity, care that people are educated about these things. Sex is a private thing, you can hardly follow people around and make sure they are abstinent until they are in love with each other, or condemn them for being in love with someone who said they loved them too but didn’t. Forget abortion at all — you seem to want to impose your religious ideals on the rest of the world and that’s the problem causing abortions, believe it or not. People aren’t educated enough about birth control nor have the access they need before they make a decision to have sex with someone. You cannot control their minds and make them think of god and abstain. That DOES NOT WORK, and probably causes more unwanted pregnancies than you seem to realize.

      • Just paying attn

        This is an argument I really don’t understand.

        I dont either…it’s amazing how much the word hyprocrite is thrown around in here. Because I’m not at an office handing out condoms I’m a hyprocrite…it never made sense. It’s a borrowed argument that many people use, who dont address the point…personally as they are supposed to. Really if you think about it, why should abortion be right…unless it’s for medical purposes?

        I’m not saying it’s an easy choice…but making the right choice isn’t always easy. Plus I’m not saying anyone is going to hell, or they are evil. People keep trying to put words into my mouth, I am not condemning any one. I just say it’s wrong…and I’ve given facts, moral points, and Biblical points. It’s funny how people want to smudge what I say…to twist my words and make it seem like I hate people that have abortions….or worse that I’m saying they are all hell bound.

        I am saying that it is wrong to abort babies without medical reason, and people really need to start finding alternatives. I cant wait to see the twist of words that will come with this, but they I’ve noticed that alot of people skip over most of what I say…to try to pick small parts and attack. I’ve rebuttled all the attacks, gone over all the responses, I even show what I agree with. I know there is stuff I’ve said that you all agree with, but you try to skip over it…for some odd reason.

        Have we discussed partial-birth abortions? I dont think so…where are yall at on that subject? I’ve asked many times.

        Thanks for a voice of reason brgulker.

  • I v I

    First off. Hats off to all the posters here who are staying on topic with valid discussions/arguments and especially those who have the self control to attack the arguments instead of the posters.

    Secondly: A special hats off to JPA for being able to weather the storm of many useless insulting comments and keep his composure amongst it all.

    This has been quite a lengthy discussion… I just read over all the 2010 posts and it has definitely been a heated argument!

    • Sunny Day

      I like your pom poms, where did you get them?

      • Custador

        I v I must be a sock-puppet! No sane and rational human being could read through Just Paying attn’s post and reach that conclusion, seriously!

        • I v I

          I’m not a sock puppet yet, still way too much sane, rational human being in me for that. But I’m truly trying to get there! God willing I’ll be totally led by the Spirit one day.

          What part of my conclusion was wrong?

          • Custador

            That JPA isn’t a dribbling moron.

            • I v I

              Never said a word about his level of intelligence or anyone else’s for that matter. Just said I admire his composure. Will also add steadfastness, as he has been at it for a while.

            • Nzo

              I’m pretty sure saying the same things over and over again, and expecting a different answer = insanity. JPA continues to say things that are demonstrably wrong, and expects us to just roll over at some point and say “sure, even though the evidence shows you’re batshiat insane, you’re right!”

              Not sure any amount of kudos is warranted for that kind of behavior… not by anyone who isn’t a plant or sock-puppet.

            • I v I

              Insanity only to those who lack vision Nzo. MLK, Gandhi, Mandela… many thought them to be insane.

            • Custador

              Gandhi was a lawyer for the segregationist government in South Africa and was deeply racist against black people. Funny how history glosses over little things like that, isn’t it?

            • Nzo

              … You’re comparing a christard to MLK, Gandhi, and Mandela? That’s just offensive. Vision != Imaginaryfriendvision.

            • I v I

              Not at all. I’m comparing lack of vision to incorrectly labeling someone insane.

            • Kodie

              You are asserting that JPA has vision or that it’s just not a nice thing to label him insane? Either way, comparing him to other martyred figures who are irrelevant in this discussion is not a valid argument. I think you already said what you meant, and this is just troll gravy for you.

            • I v I

              Yes I did say what I meant. I even clarified for you. I can’t be blamed for any further misunderstanding or should I say disregarding. Can’t believe someone of your intelligence can’t understand this simple post.

            • Kodie

              Why did you even post? Did your friend JPA point you here and brag about it or something? You don’t have to rub your friend’s belly here, I think your post was superfluous and invited a lot of you know what you were going to get when you posted. Your friend can’t argue his way out of a paper sack even if you tear out the bottom of it. Abortion is legal because it’s not murder. Calling up a non-existent god you can’t prove doesn’t trump the legal definition of life.

            • Kodie

              Also, abstinence education does not help. Abstinence wishful thinking and hand-wringing is annoying and doesn’t help. Classifying people who choose to have abortions as careless and slutty is not a valid argument because it’s unsupported by evidence, and there is plenty of evidence to oppose this prejudiced position. Next!

            • I v I

              JPA commented about a conversation he was having online about abortion earlier this wk. I asked him to send the link. He never asked for any help or “belly rubbing”. I read several posts and decided to post. I agree my initial post was superfluous as are most greetings lol. But it was not meant to insight the uproar it did and still don’t understand why it did. But no matter.

              From what I read. JPA needed no assistance as he routinely answered just about every legitimate question asked of him, while rarely anyone ever answered his.

              How can you say abstinence teaching does not work? Is it because you’ve never met someone who’s abstained from sex until marriage? If so that would be a pretty stupid reason to do so. As if you’ve taken survey of the world. Give me a break Kodie. This is your oh so great logic? And the very next sentence you have the nerve to speak of “unsupported evidence”? Ok, please reread and edit your comment so that it actually makes “logical” sense.

            • yahweh

              I’m just catching up on this thread. I love how xtians have a black or white view of everything. Regarding sex – If you didn’t get taught abstinence, you (or your partner) will get an abortion. There is never any middle ground. File this under the “I’m so uptight because I am afraid of my sky-daddy that I am gonna make sure no one else has any fun.”

            • Nzo

              How can you say abstinence teaching does not work?

              You really just didn’t read my posts, did you? It’s f*cking proven to NOT work, moron. I even gave links to reputable websites with no hidden agenda.

              Hahahaha… “prevention” statistics are embarrassing. The idea that you can tell men, women, or children to not have sex might be all nice in theory, but in reality you’re wasting your time. Honestly, do a little research before you start talking like you know something on this forum.

              http://www.thebody.com/content/news/art55275.html
              http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_12/016223.php
              http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR2007041301003.html
              http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18093769/

              Again, ABSTINENCE PROGRAMS DO NOT WORK. There’s no wiggle room here, your efforts in that direction are futile.

              It’s up there, look for it. How many times does one have to prove you and your sex-lover buddy JPA wrong?

            • Kodie

              As if you’ve taken survey of the world.

              You can start with this.
              http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends.pdf

              I laughed when you suggested I don’t know anyone who waited until marriage to have sex because that would be anecdotal evidence and also irrelevant.

            • Custador

              Do you know which demographic group has the highest instance of pre-marital teenage pregnancy IN THE WORLD? American evangelical Christians. So no, I v I , abstinence does NOT work – as proven by the group who are taught it to the exclusion of all other sex ed getting up the duff A LOT. Oh, they also have a high STI rate, by the way.

            • I v I

              Way too much to look through to find the one quote I know wont be there:

              “Abstinence Teaching has not led to one person abstaining from sex.”

              And if it is I would not believe the source.

              Just because abstinence teaching doesn’t make huge strides in stopping premarital sex/young kids getting pregnant doesn’t mean it does not work. If only one kid heard and listened… it worked.

            • Elemenope

              Just because abstinence teaching doesn’t make huge strides in stopping premarital sex/young kids getting pregnant doesn’t mean it does not work. If only one kid heard and listened… it worked.

              That’s an awfully myopic way of looking at things. It worked for that one kid and failed several others. When it is arrayed against other options that universally perform better, it cannot be said to work better than them. Much like, a doctor would not say “sulfonamides work in a few cases, so we shouldn’t use penicillin,” when the penicillin works in many more cases than the sulfonamides do. Sure, the kids whose life is saved by the older drug is still saved, but that ignores the many that will die if not for the newer one. One works better.

              And I don’t think there are many people who would argue that suggesting abstinence is not a reasonable component of comprehensive sex education, only that it is not a *sufficient* component. It works only along with others.

            • Kodie

              Rationalize all you want. If only one kid heard and listened, and dozens of others per kid who heard and listened didn’t hear and didn’t listen and got pregnant, the pregnancy rate goes up and so do abortion rates. You don’t seem to understand how statistics work. If abstinence is the only message, then no amount of birth control someone doesn’t know about or have access to is going to discourage anyone from having sex if they desire to, and becoming pregnant because that’ll happen.

              People need to hear abstinence is just one of the options, not the only option, not necessarily even the socially preferred option. To prevent more pregnancies and STDs and abortions, you need to educate people (not just kids) on all forms of birth control and make them accessible and available. Birth control information doesn’t encourage sexual activity any more than normal hormones and curiosity does. To call normal hormones and curiosity bad and irresponsible, to chain it up, to stigmatize it, is, in your best case scenario, to lead to very young people getting married as soon as they can, before they know what responsibilities await them as an adult. Great idea.

              Your friend JPA just pines and pines after people not hopping into bed with people they haven’t picked out as their life-long mate. That won’t happen; get in the real world if reducing the number of abortions matters to you. Forcing people who don’t listen to the opinions and obsessions of your friend JPA to carry through unwanted pregnancies and raise children in an environment of unwantedness or inability to care for a child or to pass that poor new person over to be raised by fundies (if they’re white) doesn’t seem to be a good solution for everyone in the real world where abortion is not murder and people will continue to have sex with each other, whether you or your friend JPA approve or not. Many of them are married and in committed relationships so you can also stop with how slutty they are to be in need of an abortion also.

            • Kodie

              l v l:

              If only one kid heard and listened… it worked.

              elemenope:

              That’s an awfully myopic way of looking at things.

              Here again, we have l v l choosing anecdotal evidence over statistics. If reducing the number of abortions matters overall, it doesn’t matter if one kid took the abstinence message to heart when the program produces more pregnancies and more abortions.

            • I v I

              LMNOP: My statement was purposely myopic to prove a point. I never said abstinence teachings alone would be a great way to decrease the number of abortions/unwanted pregnancies. I actually never said anything about abstinence teachings at all until responding to a Kodie quote.

              LMNOP: “And I don’t think there are many people who would argue that suggesting abstinence is not a reasonable component of comprehensive sex education, only that it is not a *sufficient* component. It works only along with others.”

              You would think right…

              Kodie: “Also, abstinence education does not help. Abstinence wishful thinking and hand-wringing is annoying and doesn’t help.”

              This is what I was responding to and why I said what I did. However, I agree with your points.

            • I v I

              Kodie if you had written that abstinence teachings were just one part of the puzzle I never would have written what I did. I actually thought you believed it shouldn’t even be a part as that is what your comment led me to believe. I agree it should only be a part of several.

      • I v I

        $0.99 Store… It was sitting on the shelf right next to that sad bag of sarcasm you picked up.

        • Nzo

          They allow fundie-emo-trolls in the $0.99 store?

          If you think JPAs arguments were anything but the ignorant blather of a delusional fundie, desperate to win some brownie points from his/her imaginary friends, then you’ve GOT to either be a sock puppet, or someone that knows him/her. Even other christards would call JPA a moron.

          Also, what’s wrong with attacking the person, when the arguments he/she has thrown up are constantly, logically, morally, and intellectually demolished? After a while, refuting anything said by JPA proves to be a useless gesture, as JPA refuses to see anything from any viewpoint besides his/her jesusgoggle P.O.V.. If you can’t admit defeat when the facts tell you you’re wrong, you deserve every bit of the ridicule you receive.

          • Custador

            I love that I invented the word Christard and now I see people use it with such vigour :D

          • I v I

            Again! Not a word of agreement/disagreement with anyone here no matter what side and already I’m a fundie emo troll ahahahaha. You don’t know where I stand fundamentally/politically emotionally, but I’m attacked because I said “good job” to ppl for attacking arguments and to another for composure??? I guess there is nothing wrong with that logic either right?

            “Also, what’s wrong with attacking the person, when the arguments he/she has thrown up are constantly, logically, morally, and intellectually demolished?”

            There’s nothing wrong with it if you don’t have a logical argument to put forth. It’s an often used mb tactic that many have mastered.

            • Kodie

              Logic bounces off the guy like rubber, so you call him patient and composed. That’s some rationalization you have going for you. Some big assumptions about his character. That may be enough to peg you for what you probably are, but I won’t say it. Not right now.

            • I v I

              Kodie I think we can agree that logic is subjective, that’s why these types of discussions happen everyday. So I’m sure he is thinking logic bounces off many of you’ll as well.

              Regardless of his point of view, if I agreed or not, I would still be able to give the same compliment. Which many of you can’t seem to stomach. The only reason I singled him out is because the fight was stacked against him (as there were many against him) and in addition, he continued to argue points instead of taking the easy way out and attacking posters (as many did against him). However, had the numbers in the fight not been skewed I prob would not have said anything about him in particular. But would have just posted my opinions.

              But before I could even do that I was attacked for reasons still unknown to me and seemingly those who attacked me, simply for not vilifying JPM. The atheists I know personally are much more about open mindedness than it seems many are on this board. I was truly caught off guard by what I read today and by the comments I unjustly received.

              But you can say whatever it is you are thinking… I’m not trying to hide anything.

            • Kodie

              The next thing I know about is that you think logic is subjective. We have rules of what makes a logical argument to support a claim, and no, your friend JPA doesn’t use any. By “we” have rules, I mean, in case that got by you, generally agreed upon rules of logic and logical fallacies.

              A claim may be subjective, but where is the support for it? JPA made no supportive arguments in favor of his claim with regard to logic. Mostly appeals to emotion and authority — not liking people who have sex, and by the authority of god for which no human claimant has ever provided evidence. In opposition, logical arguments opposed to his stance were leveled and received with more JPA saying the same thing over again, rather than refute the counterclaim with superior evidence and logic. Some of his arguments, if he tried to expose his “intelligent” side, did not have even a loose grasp of science or the rest of the real world. That’s not subjective, honey. I’m looking for the subjective and there is none. His opinion is his opinion and even there, logically, you’re not really entitled to your opinion if you’re wrong.

              Look it up.

              And he was shown wrong but his “vision” would not allow him to see. He’s not the winner of the argument just because he kept on without losing his shlt. You can give him a big 2nd place medal if you want, and you can be delusional together.

            • Nzo

              You post out of the blue under the pretense that you’re some sort of “neutral party” here to comment on the state of things, while giving kudos to a christard whose arguments have been properly, logically, morally, and intellectually refuted time and again.

              The grandstanding about having read all the posts and how heated the argument seems a bit over-the-top. The fact that you seem to think that I, or anyone else, hasn’t used logic to refute this pea-brained idiot shows that you really didn’t read a damned thing in this thread.

              This “oh, i’m a neutral party, you know nothing about me” crap isn’t really going to work here. You’re obviously JPA, or a friend, who is also lacking in the intellectual category.

            • I v I

              I am indeed a friend of JPA and there was no grandstanding at all. I said what I did and that’s all, simply to preface the fact that I read both sides of the arguments.

              “The fact that you seem to think that I, or anyone else, hasn’t used logic to refute this pea-brained idiot shows that you really didn’t read a damned thing in this thread.”

              WHO’S POSTS ARE YOU READING??? My screen name is I v I. For the third time… I never said anything about anyone’s logic. I probably would have by now lol, but several of you attacked me. Again attacking ppl and not arguments. And this time you can’t say you did it because you logically reasoned with me and I just didn’t budge… So why did you? I think it’s just because you are not open to debate with anyone except those who agree with you. In which case, you are not open to debate. So I will ignore you until you post something of significance from now on.

            • Nzo

              Your grandstanding was pretending to be some unknown 3rd party person. “To play or act to impress onlookers”… you were trying not to have any direct connection to JPA so as not to look like you were on his side, but taking his side as a neutral party.

              There’s nothing wrong with it if you don’t have a logical argument to put forth.

              Yeah, you said that. Which indicates that you believe that no one put forth logical arguments. Are you even reading your own posts?

              You seem to have this martyr complex here. You say you’re being attacked while being called out for a plant… stooge if you will, pretending not to know JPA and agreeing with him so it seems like anything he’s said has made an ounce of sense.

              Who reasons with a stooge anyway? You’re basically defending a moron, therefore, you defend every moronic statement he’s made on this thread, therefore, you can’t be reasoned with.

              I’m open to debate all day long. The problem with you and JPA is that you seem to think your metaphysical fairy tales are true despite no evidence proving the existence of anything supernatural in the history of ever. That you can’t understand the fact that the “debate” was over as soon as JPA couldn’t provide evidence of his god existing, means you have no idea what the hell it means to have a debate. The entire foundation your friend’s arguments are based on is a book of fairy tales, meaning his opinions are based in a fantasy world.

              Significance? I just called you out for what you are, while you were pretending to be something you weren’t. I used logic to do this. I called your friend out for being a complete moron, incapable of understanding that his opinions hold no weight when facts disprove them.

              Q: How much more significance would a smart man/woman need?

              A: None… less than that even. A smart man/woman would have realized this when reading the thread.

              So, I v I, I have to know…
              What’s it like to be so intellectually inferior to those arguing against you, that you do not even know when you have been beaten?

            • Sunny Day

              The you are being mean and insulting card will be played (again) in 3, 2, 1 ………..

            • I v I

              No. I know logic is subjective Kodie. And that’s “man’s logic” in case that got by you. Much of your pretty little logic falls apart when you apply it to someone in a situation unlike yours. Tell me Kodie what would all of your “perfect logic” be if applied in another country, another state, another neighborhood, another home and even often times your own home. Chances are your own family members and close friends do not share your logic on all fronts, no matter how much that may upset you. So all the links to definitions of “we’s” logic mean abosolutly nothing. “We” don’t even have the same logic I can assure you, especially when it comes to such topics as abortion. Just because you agree with several ppl on this board doesn’t mean you won’t disagree with the same ppl on another mb on a different topic.

              No matter how much support you may bring to back your argument, when taken to another culture, all bets are off. Some will accept the support most will not. This is the situation going on now between JPA and the rest. Two different cultures clashing. I actually thought JPA put forth several supportive points and you’ll simply refused to accept them. This is not to say I agree with everything JPA believes; written on this board or face to face as we have had several heated arguments over many different topics. Anyway this is why man’s logic is all subjective. And why it absolutely cannot be applied to the things of God. God’s logic is the only infallible logic there is, and He gave us the blueprint to follow through the Bible.

              quote: “Some of his arguments, if he tried to expose his “intelligent” side, did not have even a loose grasp of science or the rest of the real world. That’s not subjective, honey. I’m looking for the subjective and there is none.”

              Umm this is a little embarrassing for you mainly because you were bagging on him for not being “intelligent”.

              Definition: Subjective – a. Proceeding from or taking place in a person’s mind rather than the external world:

              Aaaaawwwwwwkward….

              Sooooooo… All the “subjective” is right there honey.

              Because I know JPA personally, I can tell you that he definitely likes ppl who have sex lol. We have many mutual friends and to my knowledge they all have sex lol, married or not.

              And I can assure you he nor I are childishly looking for any “prize” be it first or second.

              Anyway going to watch Bron. Hopefully he stays in Cleveland or at least goes to Chicago to not contract the talent in the league any further than it already is.

              Good night all.

            • Kodie

              Logic isn’t pick or choose, idiot. Opinions, everyone has one, some can be proven wrong by logic. Logic works everywhere. There is no proof of god, his “logic” is illogical and inhumane, uneven, it’s not mysterious and righteous, it’s that you believe in a sadist. Only, phew! he’s not real. Opinions based on him and his book aren’t valid.

              Your friend JPA seems to have some serious issues with what other people want to do with each other. That’s not logic. That’s not facing facts as they are and finding a solution that works. That’s wishful thinking. All of JPA’s arguments were similar and illogical.

              Good luck with that lebron thing. I hope he goes to Miami just because I think I figured out who you are. Do you happen to be really drunk right now?

            • Nzo

              Because I know JPA personally, I can tell you that he definitely likes ppl who have sex lol.

              Creepy

            • I v I

              Temper, Temper Kodie. You’re starting to sound a little like Nzo… not a good look. Anyway…

              quote: “Logic isn’t pick or choose, idiot.”

              I agree! Which is why i never said it.??? So am I the idiot? (That was rhetorical in case you were wondering.) I simply informed you that logic is relative to a specific culture even down to the point of an individual when considering a multitude of questions.

              Yes everyone has opinions, we agree again. Ureka! But do you know how we come about these many diverse opinions? I do. Our opinions are developed through our individual logical points of view, our individual realities, our individual understandings of our surroundings. So our logic is a result of our individual life experiences and that logic molds our opinions. Yes many opinions can be proven wrong with logic, but many others cannot be.

              How do “we” know this is true. It’s quite simple actually. We see diversity in the world, even amongst the “smart ppl”, the ones I’d expect to be able to grasp the one true “Kodie” proclaimed logic. If there was only one logical way of doing everything, don’t you think the world would be a lot different? Why are there different types of governments? Why are there different laws amongst different states in your own government? Why are there different religions? Why are there different theories amongst your beloved scientists? Why are you atheist? Because your life experiences molded your logic, which molded your opinions, which molded your negative thinking about God.

              Had you and I gone through different experiences in life, our roles may have been changed in this conversation. Being one who does not believe in God, I would expect you to realize this and be more open to opinions/logic of others. It is harder for those that believe in God to see this, because we know that there is a plan that is being played out through God’s will. This is why most “Christians” get called closed minded. And many deservedly so. It is very ironic and a little strange that I am telling this to an atheist.

              The reason I am able to debate with you about this without getting angry is because I realize that if it hadn’t been for God’s grace, I could have been born in a situation that would have led me to reject him just as you do. I don’t think I am any better or any worse than you or anyone else on this mb. I was blessed through no result of my own doing. Many “Christians” think they are “better than” because they believe even though they were born in a perfect position to believe. It is much harder and therefore more virtuous in believing despite a less than perfect situation.

              Removing God’s eternal plan from the mix:

              I can honestly say that I have no clue whether I would be Christian had I not had the life experiences I had.

              Can you’ll truthfully say that no matter how your life experiences changed you could never be a Christian?

              No, not drunk. Who am I?

            • yahweh

              Oh look, it’s The III, or wait I mean FYI…….schizophrenic troll is schizophrenic

            • Kodie

              @ l v l – It’s funny how smart you think you are compared to how dumb you actually are. You haven’t demonstrated any comprehension by what the rest of the world means by logic, so if you aren’t JPA himself, you took the same correspondence course in how to win an internet argument.

              Logic is not subjective. The reason different people and groups reach different conclusions is that not all opinions or preferences are right/wrong. If you have a yellow shirt and a blue one, you might choose the yellow one because it was closest to you, or the blue one because last time you wore it someone said they liked that color on you. Both are valid reasons for choosing either shirt. If you wore the blue one already this week, you could logically conclude that it is better to wear the yellow one because it is also clean. There are arguments in favor of either option and none is 100% right or wrong, and it doesn’t matter. Subjective.

              If you have a yellow shirt and you say it is blue, it’s not subjective. You are wrong when you say a yellow shirt is blue. No amount of ass-pulling will logically convince anyone that a yellow shirt is blue, when it is evidently yellow. Not subjective.

              With the “question” of god’s existence, you have merely asserted that god does exist and has a plan for your life. You have also asserted that I have negative thinking about god and rejected god. You have no proof or evidence of god, you only go by what you’ve been told and feelings and wishful thinking and assertions. I have logically concluded based on the lack of evidence for god that a god’s existence is impossible, much less the god you believe in and describe. It’s illogical to believe in god, as you mentioned — it’s harder for a Christian to make the concept fit in their brain with everything they do know specifically because it defies logic and you are using your life experiences to attribute feelings to a deity that doesn’t make any sense.

              That’s the opposite of logic. That’s not “different logic” (actually personal preference), like an opinion over which shirt to wear today, that’s cognitive dissonance. There is a right and wrong answer to this because god cannot both exist and not exist in the same way 2 shirts hang in your closet but you can’t decide which one to put on. So as much as you like to think you know what logic is, or your friend JPA is entitled to use his own logic, neither one of you has the knack of it by far.

            • I v I

              You have missed my point totally, but don’t think I did a good job making my point. So. What happens when you meet the culture that teaches yellow as blue and blue as yellow. Our conversation now can be a representation of just that. Your “culture” teaches that God does not exist and mine teaches that there is one true God. The point is no man’s logic transcends the world. And no man’s logic transcends time. This is why very “logical” assertions are made by man’s knowledge and held as “truth” until they are disproven by man’s knowledge as it catches up to true truth over time.

              Science/logic always follow behind truth. I’m sure some of the greatest scientists back in the day had differing opinions on the earth’s shape. Some said a disk(red), some square(blue), others spherical(yellow) and yet others blocked(green). I’m sure they all “proved” it many times/ways over to their respective cultures. Can you imagine a conversation between two or more of these respective scientists on which one had the true color yellow? Who’s logic is right if they all had a reasonable methodology in attaining their result. Many of these so called experts were later proven wrong. But only when man’s knowledge caught up to truth. Only then was science correct. Just because science at the time could not prove that the earth was spherical didn’t make it any less spherical. And just because science can’t prove God is not real does not make Him any less real.

              The proof you seek through the knowledge of man will be presented at the exact time it is too late for science to catch up. And therefore, too late for you to apply your logic. That is definitely the day you will realize I and JPA knew the right color yellow. I just hope you and everyone else here realize that at some point in your lives before that day.

            • Kodie

              What happens when you meet the culture that teaches yellow as blue and blue as yellow.

              If it is a matter of language and their word for yellow is ‘blue’ and their word for blue is ‘yellow’ that is subjective and cultural. If they think yellow is actually blue and blue is actually yellow, then they are what we call “ass-backwards”. If this sort of thing extends to the rest of their facts and education, then they are what we call “wrong-headed” and probably won’t get very far, probably fear knowledge and are intimidated by people who disagree with whatever bunk they invent to teach their people as truth and facts, and probably threaten and scare their citizens to fear whatever anyone says if it doesn’t match up.

              As for this god you keep pressing about as a logical alternative to atheism, you haven’t provided evidence, and based on the real world around me, and my lack of fear to know how things really are, there is no logical possibility of god. He cannot be everything a god would be and still contradict himself, whether you define that with your Christian god of the bible (as impossible as an invisible pink unicorn) or as something else you could try to pretend exists and still makes any sense. The OPPOSITE of logic. Logic will still apply when I’m dead, I will not be a soul being judged by god to live eternally near him or eternally in a pit of hell torture, because that’s impossible and doesn’t reconcile. It’s a story, it’s make-believe. It’s not even a fun story because hell is not love, jealousy is not love, judgement is not love. That you base a number of opinions of yours on this non-logic, amongst other episodes of anecdotal evidence (knee-jerk emotional response — not logic) rather than respect the authority of statistics (rational, mathematical = logic) in a given situation is troublesome to our real world and people who may have to live with the results of your vote.

            • I v I

              Ok Kodie. From reading your response, I am satisfied that I was able to get my point across. I also believe you got your point across and I am glad we were able to talk things out in a relatively respectful way. Just to be clear, I was never here to piss anyone off or “win”. Don’t think there is anything wrong with a heated discussion though. Even with light jabs from either side.

  • Nzo

    Anyway going to watch Bron. Hopefully he stays in Cleveland or at least goes to Chicago to not contract the talent in the league any further than it already is.

    Lame attempt to pretend that losing here doesn’t bother you. Probably information looked up at the last minute to pretend you have a life outside of making an a$s of yourself on the internet… if watching every move of another man’s life counts as “having a life”.

    “Science” and “The rest of the real world” aren’t subjective things. The subjective part of you and your sex-loving partner’s arguments is where you seem to think you have a solid foundation on which to argue your points… and the parts where you still don’t understand how badly you’ve lost whatever fight you think you still have a dog in.

    But hey, go watch “Bron” and pretend you don’t care. I’m taking it as you tucking tail and sulking off while pretending that’s not the case.

    Have fun though!

  • MoonChild02

    “As Wikipedia would say, “citation needed.””

    You should read the book The Sacrament of Abortion by Ginnette Paris, a pro-abortion activist and Wiccan who believes such.

    Also, abortion is quite like the ancient sacrifices from the Canaanites and Ammonites to their deities Moloch (Molech), Ashteroth (Ashterah), and Baal, which are mentioned in the Bible. The Bible mentions how these people “ripped” open pregnant women, removed the children, drained the children of their blood, then burnt them upon the sacrificial altar. I believe the ancient Jewish historian Josephus Flavius also mentioned this in one of his books. There are other historic records which report that the Greeks, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Mayans, Aztecs, and others did the same.

    These sacrifices are similar in the fact that in abortion, a woman’s cervix is unnaturally forced opened, the child cut or sucked out, the blood separated from the rest of the body, and the parts sent to a medical lab to be incinerated. That is, if the parts aren’t thrown in the garbage, which is illegal, but investigations have shown that it does happen. It’s interesting to note that the same place that the Canaanites and Ammonites did their sacrifices, in Gehenna, a.k.a. the Valley of Ben-Hinnom, was also where the garbage from the surrounding cities, including Jerusalem, was dumped.


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X