Christians Don't Believe In Miracles

heavenI liked Jeremy’s comment about how Christians don’t believe in miracles these days:

When it comes down to it Christians don’t really believe in miracles anyway.

When they hear of a person claiming “God told me to kill my children” they instinctively know that person is crazy. We all do. [It] doesn’t matter what God told Abraham —when it happens in the real world Christians respond like anyone else.  If I claimed to have literally moved a mountain with my faith no Christian would believe me.

Christians go to a doctor when they’re sick.  They may pray as well, but they’ll definitely go to a doctor, and they’ll look at you like you’re crazy if you don’t.

Christians will wear seat belts and follow safety instructions and buy insurance and save for retirement just like anyone else.  They may claim that they believe God heals and God protects and God provides, but it doesn’t tend to turn into action.

In my experience, that’s true. When it comes to the real world, Christians act just like atheists. The ones that don’t act like atheists end up in jail (for child abuse by withholding medical treatment, for instance) or a mental institution (for listening to the “voice of God” in their head).

  • http://thinkingforfree.blogspot.com Eamon Knight

    I once knew someone who didn’t buy life insurance on the God-will-take-care-of-my-family theory. Fortunately, he didn’t die (at least while I knew them). There are also a few Christian sects who refuse to immunize their children. Every few years, one or the other of them will make the news when an epidemic of measels or HIB or something breaks out a church camp….

  • http://thebeattitude.com theBEattitude

    I always find it amazing that virtually all people accept technology and science when it will keep them alive or make their lives better. At the same time they believe god will miraculously heal select people and perform miracles when he feels like it.

    The term “Miracle on the Hudson” makes me laugh. God performed a miracle and saves a plane full of people. He just happened to do it on a plane piloted by a highly trained airline safety expert who has consulted with NASA with 40 years experience. A few weeks later, 50 people die in a plane crash in Buffalo that god apparently didn’t think were important enough to save.

  • Elemenope

    @theBEattitude

    Asking for people to be consistent is asking to be consistently disappointed.

  • http://mixingtracks.blogspot.com professoryackle

    Course, there are also the Christian Scientists, and the JW’s refusing blood products, because of their religious beliefs. I’ve a friend whose son is haemophiliac. If she were a JW instead of a Catholic, her son would’ve died many times over. Instead, he’s now 19 and relatively well.

  • http://voicefromthewilderness.wordpress.com Voice from the Wilderness

    Could it be that medicine is a miracle of God…that He gave the scientists the skill and the drive to find cures…that He directed them to the right combination of ingredients to make a medicine that worked?

    You see, I believe that God can and sometimes does work a miracle of grace in the lives of people. But He has also provided such things as medicine. King Hezekiah was dying and was told by the Prophet Isaiah to get his things in order. Hezekiah cried out to God for mercy and God sent the Prophet back with a message part of which was to apply a lump of figs to the boil and he was cured. Do figs have medicinal properties? I don’t know. But I do know that Hezekiah did as God commanded and was healed.

    As for Christians going to doctors and wearing their seat belts, Jesus said, “Don’t put God to the test.” To not avail myself of such a blessing is the same as the man who heard a sermon on God’s protection and so took the breakneck road home and went over a cliff to his death. It was said that he was predestined to be a fool and made his calling and election sure! Going to Doctors doesn’t affect my faith at all as I see medicine as a gift from God. I pray that God will direct my Doctor to see the problem and to provide the necessary medicine for the cure.

    Seat Belts? It’s the law of the land and God has raised up all governments that exist. Our government has decreed that we are to wear seat belts for safety. In obeying that law I am obeying Him. And again, could it be that God loves us enough to give people wisdom to make things such as seat belts for the protection of those who drive the cars God gave men wisdom to make?

    Miracle on the Hudson? Most plane crashes end in the death of all aboard. The above noted crash in Buffalo is evidence to that. Praise God for the skill He gave to the pilot of that plane and for granting that all aboard survived!

    Yes there are those who are foolish in their ideas about what they think God wants, who have bought into a position such as “Christian Science” which opposes any form of health care. But this is a cult, not Christianity.

    As for the statement that God apparently didn’t think that the passengers on the Buffalo flight weren’t important enough to save, let me ask you this…who on this planet has lived forever. God has laid out the day of our birth as well as the day of our death and the manner in which we will leave this world. I guarantee that death by plane crash is a horrific way to go but it doesn’t begin to compare with the agony of those who will experience the Justice of God due them for their sins.

    I’m sure you’d rather not hear such things as a God before Whom you will stand. The question is: will you stand before Him as an enemy, one who has lived his life in such a way as to demonstrate his hatred for such a merciful God Who has given us life? Or will you stand before Him in humiility and gratitude for His love for you. One thing you won’t do, you won’t be saying “This is a dream…I’m imagining all of it…I don’t believe in God…”

    When you stand before the Great White Judgment Throne you will no longer be an atheist…but then it will be too late!

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    “Course, there are also the Christian Scientists, and the JW’s refusing blood products, because of their religious beliefs.”

    mark: Those types make me sick to my stomach. They are so F.O.L. They wont allow or dont believe in things such as blood transfusions however they will wear glasses, hearing aids and accept all other kinds of modern comforts.

    Holy rollers of all ilk are so arbitrary in thier belief, I find it fascinating

  • Val

    theBEattitude

    I always find it amazing that virtually all people accept technology and science when it will keep them alive or make their lives better.

    I’ll see your point and raise you one observation:

    Christians talk ad nauseum of how abortion, or the morning-after pill, or even contraception and sterilization (and similar procedures) would interfere with God’s will.

    Yet, if they were nearly miscarried, or nearly died in utero or as infants – or as one Christian anti-choicer put it “I was supposed to have been thrown in the toilet” – saving their lives is never considered interfering with God’s will.

    Apparently, using fertility drugs is never considered interfering with God’s will.

    Funny how that works.

    Ignoring for the moment that it’s self-contradictory and people deciding what God’s will is based on their own prejudices:

    See how convenient and self-serving that is?

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    “Course, there are also the Christian Scientists, and the JW’s refusing blood products, because of their religious beliefs.”

    mark: Those types make me sick to my stomach. They are so F.O.S They wont allow or dont believe in things such as blood transfusions however they will wear glasses, hearing aids and accept all other kinds of modern comforts and medicines.

    Holy rollers of all ilk are so arbitrary in thier belief, I find it fascinating

    Sorry had a typo.

  • Jasen777

    I think that’s misleading. Many Christians believe in miracles, but think they are rare, certainly rare enough that they cannot depend on them happening to themselves.

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    “Ignoring for the moment that it’s self-contradictory and people deciding what God’s will is based on their own prejudices:”

    mark: I guess this could be a reason why many churches demonize gay folks but basically say nothing about the large premarital sex. I have thought for a while now, that the church practices a lot of selective morality.

  • http://thebeattitude.com theBEattitude

    @Voice from the Wilderness

    Could it be that medicine is a miracle of God…that He gave the scientists the skill and the drive to find cures

    What about people 2,000 years ago? Why would god decide to wait so long to “give scientists the skill” to find cures?

    Praise God for the skill He gave to the pilot of that plane and for granting that all aboard survived!

    God gave him the skill? I guess he spent his 40 years of training just for the fun of it.

    When I stand before this “merciful” god, I’ll remember to thank him for his love. Ahhh there’s nothing like the eternal burn in a fire pit of love and mercy.

  • John C

    Oh how you love to mock & ridicule that which you do not comprehend…and you consider yourselves to be so very wise…in your own eyes.

    But you are as mere men…and so you see in one (limited, human) mode, pride obscures your vision and you are far from God, from light from revelation…or are you?

    How He longs to show you great and mighty things which you do not (currently) know…but none of you would turn that your eyes might be made whole…again and receive your (spiritual) sight.

    How long children of men? How long? When will you AWAKE out of your deep and contented sleep? Lazarus, Lazarus…COME FORTH, escape the shroud of death and dance the dance of LIFE!

    “And I will give you a NEW heart and put a NEW spirit WITHIN you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh…and I will put MY SPIRIT WITHIN you”. Ezek 36:26&27.

    The sooner you die (to your old, self life that went to the cross) the sooner you are resurrected and begin to live the LIFE OF THE AGES…His life in you, as you…the REST of the gospel that you have never known.

    But as long as you are content to know what you (want) to know, the longer the (real) life (His uncreated life) is un-lived through you…oh how long?

    How long?

    JC

  • Barry

    I think Val has a good point, to be consistent fertility drugs or in vitro might be against God’s will, but it would be one in which life was created not destroyed.

    My favorite one is the use use of feeding tubes or breathing machines to keep people alive who are brain dead. I would still leave it to the family, but I don’t buy the arguement that we’re killing someone by removing the equipment. They would have died without it in the first place.

  • http://voicefromthewilderness.wordpress.com Voice from the Wilderness

    Amen JC

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    To the resident fundies — instead of complaining, why not explain why you think we are wrong? How do Christians act differently from atheists in the real world?

    Give us an example of how you rely on miracles in your everyday life.

  • Elemenope

    Oh how you love to mock & ridicule that which you do not comprehend…and you consider yourselves to be so very wise…in your own eyes.

    “If u juj u wil be jujded. So don’t. Bcz u will be jujded teh saem az u jujded teh othr d00d. Teh sawdust iz in ur brothrz i, makin u confused. Why u caer so much when u gotz a board in ur i LOL? Why u sez “O hai takin teh sawdust out of ur i”? U gotz board in ur i! Taek teh board out of ur i furst dumass. Den taek teh dust out of ur brotherz i aftr dat. Duh. Dont giff holi thingz to dogz. Dont give pearlz to pigz. Dey just taer dem up n then taer u up too.”

    Especially that end part seems to apply to what you are doing. If you really think we are arrogant and haughty and self-possessed, in what way are your comments not pearls before swine?

    The beginning part was just for flavor. Take that how you will.

  • http://mixingtracks.blogspot.com professoryackle

    @VFTW

    Could it be that medicine is a miracle of God…that He gave the scientists the skill and the drive to find cures…that He directed them to the right combination of ingredients to make a medicine that worked?…etc

    Sure, you’re bound to couch human achievements in terms of “god did it/god inspired it/god gave us the intelligence and other resources” etc – you’re a christian, so that’s the way your world-view operates. I am not a christian any longer, because I saw the light of reason. I would say, No – medicine is a miracle of human achievement, through the skill and drive of the scientists involved, who through their dedication, hard work and intelligence have given us what we have today.

    I guarantee that death by plane crash is a horrific way to go but it doesn’t begin to compare with the agony of those who will experience the Justice of God due them for their sins.
    I’m sure you’d rather not hear such things as a God before Whom you will stand.

    So you’ve experienced death by plane crash have you? What was it like? Don’t “guarantee” things you have no knowledge of; it’s foolish talk. As for being sure what I’d rather hear or not hear, again, you’re assuming. It realy doesn’t bother me either way to hear about Justice Day, because there is no such thing as a god before whom I will stand.

    The question is: will you stand before Him as an enemy, one who has lived his life in such a way as to demonstrate his hatred for such a merciful God Who has given us life?

    This is bandwagon talk. Just because I choose to not believe in a god who doesn’t exist because of all kinds of reasons, some personal, some much the same as the reasons others give on here, does not mean I have suddenly become immoral and depraved. How can I hate something which doesn’t exist? That’s patent nonsense.

    I would also take issue with the term “merciful God”. Put aside for one moment my atheism. If there is a God and his word is the Bible, then he is most certainly NOT merciful. See the post “God loves to kill his children” on this blog for details.

    Lastly, all your doom, gloom and naysaying at the end of your comment sucks, bigtime. That is so not the way to convert people, wagging the finger, trying to frighten them into following this so-called merciful god – or if you don’t he’s gonna getcha on judgement day and you’ll wish you’d never been born! Like that’s really going to get me to sign up. It also makes you look like a smug ass.

  • http://www.elliottcallahan.com/blog Elliott

    @VftW

    Could it be that medicine is a miracle of God…that He gave the scientists the skill and the drive to find cures…that He directed them to the right combination of ingredients to make a medicine that worked?

    Yes. God is so gracious that every year, he pulls his cosmic marionette strings to direct scientists to make a flu vaccine.

    Then, he causes the influenza virus to mutate, so next year, all their hard work will have been for nought.

    Pfffff.

    The lord giveth and the lord taketh away, right?

    I think, in the end, if you sum up all of the ‘giveths’ and all the ‘taketh aways,’ you end up with a big fat zero.

  • Barry

    @ Daniel

    I get what you’re saying, but not all Christians are looking for a miracle behind everything that happens. I know some do, but I don’t think if we don’t see water turned to wine or someone raised from the dead every other day that somehow we’ve lost the Christian faith. On the other hand though maybe its a miracle that everyday we wake up and the sun hasn’t gone supernova or the ice caps haven’t melted, those are “miracles” we can all enjoy, lol.

    For the average Christian there should be no disconnect between faith and using prudence, that is unless you hold to some sort of determinstic view of God’s will or believe in some sort of magic prayer that makes God jump for you.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @Barry: Exactly — they act like atheists. They rely on themselves and do everything themselves. That’s what we do, too. :)

  • Elemenope

    The real question I have from VFTW is:

    Are atomic weapons gifts from God? Miniguns? Torture implements?

    Is “American Idol” a gift from God?

    Is Eminem’s music?

    Is PCP? How about Heroin?

    It’s awfully hard to give God credit for medicine and not give Him credit for those, I think. If his sovereignty is absolute, then these are as much God’s doing as the remarkable brain surgery or the discovery of penicillin. He must work in *really* mysterious ways.

  • John C

    @Elemeno-

    Where was the judgment in MY post?? There was none. I can’t speak for other poster’s, just me…mine was (as usual) a call to AWAKEN to your true, original identities which is really a call to a NEW LIFE.

    What do I owe you Elemeno? But to speak the Truth in…love. I have done you no harm, no judgment from me, I am not judging you…here’s the secret…neither does He! (John 5:45)

    What’s the true message, the true offer?

    JC

  • http://mixingtracks.blogspot.com professoryackle

    @’nope

    I’m guessing (cos I used to be one) the xians would say that the bad stuff (heroin, atom bomb) is “of satan” and the good stuff “of christ”. Trouble with that was people in our church used to deem all kinds of things “satanic” just because they were on the low side of neutral. Those things were seen as anti-miracles. It got pretty ridiculous sometimes, e.g. I knew this old lady who was trying to cast demons out of her doorknob, because it was sticking badly.

    I also have a problem with definitions when it’s arguable whether something is evil or good. E.g. Most xian pop is reprehensible, but I daresay the songwriters would be thanking and praising god for giving them the sons.

  • http://mixingtracks.blogspot.com professoryackle

    /songs!

    (the sons can go to hell…)

  • Elemenope

    @profyackle

    I suspect that would be the answer I’d receive from many.

    I also have a problem with definitions when it’s arguable whether something is evil or good. E.g. Most xian pop is reprehensible, but I daresay the songwriters would be thanking and praising god for giving them the songs.

    I do too. While I’m not by any means a moral relativist, I tend to think that humans by-and-large lack the capacity to see all significant ends for a given action. So, judgments about what comes from God and what comes from “Satan” (who, from all Biblical accounts, um…comes from god) are really matters of taste and prejudice. Atom bombs killed many but also likely saved millions and led to an era of (relative) peace. Some people are overwhelmed by the horror of what happens when they explode and call them evil; others are infatuated with their tendency toward creating international political stability and call then good.

  • Ty

    Voice:

    We laugh at your limp little threats.

    When you come before MY noodley god’s judgment, and are drowned in a vast sea of tomato sauce for all eternity, then that’s where your weeping, and the gnashing of your teeth will be.

    Ramen.

  • http://thebeattitude.com theBEattitude

    @Barry

    Jesus taught that we don’t need prudence:

    Luke 12:24-26
    “Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?”

    So by having the prudence to go to the doctor when you’re sick only shows lack of faith that god will take care of you. Just like an Atheist.

  • http://mixingtracks.blogspot.com professoryackle

    @Ty

    Aaarrgh!

    Y’know, I be hankerin’ fer some ravioli now…

  • Elemenope

    I’m sorry, John C, but you just called most of us ignorant in about a half-dozen different (fairly flowery and emotive) ways. That involves an act of judgment on your part.

    Read what you wrote:
    “Oh how you love to mock & ridicule that which you do not comprehend…and you consider yourselves to be so very wise…in your own eyes.

    But you are as mere men…and so you see in one (limited, human) mode, pride obscures your vision and you are far from God, from light from revelation…or are you?”

    That’s about as judge-y as a person can get before they start inspiring impoliteness from me. Can you seriously not see it?

  • Elemenope

    I’m pretty sure Jesus never rebuked Luke for being a doctor.

  • Ty

    “I’m pretty sure Jesus never rebuked Luke for being a doctor.”

    I’m pretty sure that there is no account of Luke acting as a doctor during his apostling.

    Lots of accounts of the apostles laying on hands, none of Luke diagnosing an illness.

  • Barry

    “Exactly — they act like atheists. They rely on themselves and do everything themselves. That’s what we do, too. :)”

    I think the converse must be true as well, atheists act like Christians. Think about it, you sure do have to have a lot faith when you go to a fast food resturant and expect to walk away with getting a disease from the guy cooking your burger who hasn’t washed his hair or hands for a week or so, lol.

  • http://thebeattitude.com theBEattitude

    @Barry

    That’s faith in the board of health. Not faith in a bearded man in the clouds.

  • Elemenope

    Ty –

    My subsidiary point was that at the time that Jesus was speaking, medicine was such that a person really couldn’t add an hour to their lives merely through their worry and the devices of the craft.

    The same is not true today. Would it therefore be more reasonable to simply consider the quote from Luke above as one that was a metaphor useful to describe the (lack of) utility of worrying to that population, and less useful for describing the same sentiment today?

    But more to the point, Jesus pointedly never said “For the love of everything holy, DON’T BE DOCTORS!” If he really meant that medicine itself was a useless enterprise, I imagine he would have said something more direct about it (like he said about, e.g. divorce).

    Could it be he was trying to say that a person shouldn’t live for the sole purpose of extending one’s life, i.e. that life is not an end to itself?

  • Ty

    “Could it be he was trying to say that a person shouldn’t live for the sole purpose of extending one’s life, i.e. that life is not an end to itself?”

    Can you read whatever you want into the text?

    Sure!

    It’s why we have thousands of religions with different ideas. :)

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    @ Voice

    “..God has raised up all governments that exist.”

    Really? He is in fact evil then.

    The Third Reich
    Stalin’s Rusia
    Mussolini’s Italy
    Amin’s Uganda
    etc…

    All of them “raised up” by god?

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    What about the thought that Christians don’t have perfect faith? they are trying but can’t or don’t (whichever you prefer) have faith all the time. We try really hard but at times we fall short.

    Even the apostles didn’t have perfect faith. So because we don’t always have faith that things will work doesn’t mean we don’t ever have it. We are just imperfect which i think everyone can agree applies to them, atheist or theist.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    @Philip: So how would a Christian with “perfect faith” act in everyday life? How would they go about doing life differently than me? How would miracles affect their todo lists, relationships, medical needs, food they ate, etc?

  • Val

    markbey

    “Ignoring for the moment that it’s self-contradictory and people deciding what God’s will is based on their own prejudices:”

    mark: I guess this could be a reason why many churches demonize gay folks but basically say nothing about the large premarital sex. I have thought for a while now, that the church practices a lot of selective morality.

    It does indeed, but I find the whole anti-choice regarding choice in terminating pregnancy [while refusing to help provide vasectomies and contraception!] to be their punitive “punishment” [of mostly the female half of every couple] for daring to have premarital sex without squeezing out a baby.

  • Val

    Ty

    Voice:

    We laugh at your limp little threats.

    When you come before MY noodley god’s judgment, and are drowned in a vast sea of tomato sauce for all eternity, then that’s where your weeping, and the gnashing of your teeth will be.

    I prefer tooth-gnashing on al dente pasta.

    Yum

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ john c

    “What do I owe you Elemeno? But to speak the Truth in…love. I have done you no harm, no judgment from me, I am not judging you…here’s the secret…neither does He! (John 5:45)”

    mark: So when god sends millions and millions of people to hell forever for picking the wrong religion out of the thousands of religions that have ever existed, wouldnt that qualify as god judging man?

    When god drowned thousands and thousands of babies during the flood are you saying he wasnt judging man?

  • John C

    @Daniel…

    Here’s the definition of a “miracle” in Wiki:

    “A miracle is a sensibly perceptible interruption of the laws of nature, such that can only be explained by divine intervention, and is sometimes associated with a miracle-worker”.

    The “miracle” in my daily life is the spirit of God (the supernatural) indwelling my (natural) self and living His (uncreated spiritual) life through my (natural) one. This constitutes a true “sensibly perceptible interruption” for I sense His divine presence in my mortal body, in my spirit (quickened, made alive) inner man. This “divine intervention” is the true message of the gospel…Christ in us, the hope of glory. Col 1:27.

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    ttttttttttttttttttttt
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    For I “have been crucified with Christ, so now it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me, and the life that I (now) live, I live by faith in the son of God who loved me (and you) and gave Himself for me” Gal 2:20.

    This is divine intervention through the “foolishness of the cross (of Christ). We move from an external, visible life to an internal, invisible one. The real life is on the inside. The kingdom of heaven is within…us. This is truly “divine intervention”. Of course it can not be “seen” with our (natural, human) eyes so it is misunderstood and therefore ridiculed since the natural man is wholly dependent on his (own) sight, trusts only what he/she can perceive in the natural realm. Faith is a gift, but the Giver loves to give this gift (of faith) to all who would ask and believe.

    Second Corinthians 4:18 provides some insight regarding this (unseen) life:

    “and we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are temporal, but the things that are unseen are eternal”.

    What has been accomplished in the “unseen” realm and entered into by faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross is the lasting…the imperishable, incorruptible truth of our existence. It is the restoration to our original, true selves being One with God, no longer separate.

    So if we “have died and are resurrected” in Christ then it is no longer I that live, but Christ living through me, therefore I (the old me that I inherited from Adam) is dead. Now I appropriate (daily) that (eternal, unseen) truth and live from it, from Him within.

    So now we live “above the line”, in the truth, not below:

    spirit i am ultimate reality
    wholeness ETERNAL changeless
    complete Unseen timeless
    ————————————————————————–

    in process seen time-based
    need TEMPORAL changing
    matter i am becoming appearances

    I have “lived” both below and above the line…the resurrection offer’s a much better, spiritual existence.

    This is a miracle, this is the gospel (the good news).

    Love you guys!

    JC

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ philip

    “What about the thought that Christians don’t have perfect faith? they are trying but can’t or don’t (whichever you prefer) have faith all the time. We try really hard but at times we fall short. ”

    mark: Of course holy rollers fall short on the faith part. After years and years of praying for various things ( such as sick and dying friends to be relieved of suffering) without god stepping in an aswering those prayers I can imaging why christians would loose faith from time to time.

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    John, until you provide evidence for your numerous supernatural claims, your preaching and scripture quoting falls on deaf ears. We don’t believe the Bible is written or inspired by God because there is no evidence for it. We don’t believe in the resurrection because there is no evidence it happened. We don’t believe Jesus is god because there is no evidence he is. We don’t believe he was born of a virgin because there is no evidence he was. Etc.

    Telling us to believe these things is not going to make us believe them. We require evidence.

  • Barry

    @theBEattitude

    you forget the board of health is an ordained government institution. Ask Voice he’ll tell you.

  • Ty

    Hey, when god kills thousands, or tortures billions, or orders the death of infants at the hands of his chosen people, it’s all about the love, Mark.

    It’s because he loves you so much. Why do you make god hurt you? He just loves you so much it makes him crazy sometimes. He just loses it, sometimes. But it’s because of love. And look, baby, here’s this rainbow, just for you. God will never hurt you like that again, baby. He promises. He just went crazy; lost his head. Take god back, baby, and it will be like it used to be. Like it was before. You remember? Remember how we used to be? It can be like that again.

    Now come back to bed.

  • Ty

    “We are just imperfect which i think everyone can agree applies to them, atheist or theist.”

    Christians mean something very different by the word ‘imperfect’ than atheists do.

    I do not agree that I am imperfect in the manner a Christian would mean it.

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ john c

    “This constitutes a true “sensibly perceptible interruption” for I sense His divine presence in my mortal body, in my spirit (quickened, made alive) inner man. This “divine intervention” is the true message of the gospel…Christ in us, the hope of glory. Col 1:27.”

    mark: John how can a person tell if they are sensing a divine presence or if they are in need of counseling?

  • Barry

    @ John

    “spirit i am ultimate reality
    wholeness ETERNAL changeless
    complete Unseen timeless
    ————————————————————————–

    in process seen time-based
    need TEMPORAL changing
    matter i am becoming appearances”

    I’ve seen this dicotomy before, you really need to think this one through. Because here’s what ends up meaning

    contentless words
    mumbo jumbo
    leap of faith
    ————————-
    real world
    science
    nature

  • John C

    Looks like its Deja Vu…all over again. That’s ok, you guys are my friends…I appreciate you all.

    Love Like Him,

    JC

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    “Telling us to believe these things is not going to make us believe them. We require evidence.”

    mark: Daniel the only evidence you need is to close your eyes and feel the power of god (the warm tingling feeling when one feels closes there eyes) that is all the evidence that god needs give. Unfortunately to truly believe one must suspend most of thier common sense.

  • Ty

    I agree Barry. That’s exactly how I see the dichotomy there.

  • Ty

    “Looks like its Deja Vu…all over again.”

    John, you are constructed entirely of irony.

    It’s almost charming.

  • John C

    @Barry…

    The “real” world is the unseen one, thats the secret my friend.

    The seen world is the adamic dream we live (sleep through) unless we WAKE UP to (His) resurrected life (within).

    G’mornin Barry! Its high time we WAKE UP and Christ will shine on….you!

    LOVE MAN LOVE, its a POWER I TELL YOU…love.like.Him.

    JC

  • guiltyhere

    I’m just wondering why anyone still entertains John C’s posts…he’s obviously just doing this for his own amusement. He never posts anything worthwhile…but people keep trying to make him talk rationally. He won’t…actually I don’t think he can.

  • John C

    Has the (unseen) world of quantum physics at least taught you something about the world of (hidden) possibilities???

    Sir Isaac…err…Einstein…err…YOU

    WAKE UP WAKE UP, somebody LOVES YOU and HE IS FATHER!!!

    When I ask my little grand daughter “HOW MUCH”? She smiles and responds…”BIG TIME”. You see, she knows what I am asking her when I say those two little words…how much?. She knows I am asking her to tell me how much I love her…and how does she know to say…BIG TIME??? with her arms spread out wide?

    Cuz she knows…she knows (instinctively) what we (adults) have forgotten…that LOVE…loves, cuz thats His nature, that’s what He does!! He loves…YOU!

    JC

  • guiltyhere

    Thank you for making my point John

  • http://unreasonablefaith.com Daniel Florien

    John C……. WAKE UP WAKE UP! THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN BELIEVING IN A SKYGOD! Loves you think you but exist not he does!

    can’t you feel that… it’s inside…. look even deeper than reality and find what you really know to be true, that nothing in the spiritual world exists. you know this is true…. DONT DENY IT!!!

    The “real” world is the REAL one, don’t you know what? YES…. it is REAL, real as flowers in the garden and bees and statues in the park, raining, raining, raining…. even I know this, lowly human as I am, I am not worthy to even write these words… THANKFUL LOVE PEACE JOY

    This is true! BELIEVE THIS, friends… this is the end! this is the beginning! It’s all around us! CAN’T YOU FEEL IT???!?!

    Power, running all around, through us all, how can you not know sense not make I am taking lengths to be incomprehensible, just like the aural that is a bubble surrounding us.

    DF

    (John, if you have trouble parsing that, then you know how it feels to be on our side. :)

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    @ john c

    “Cuz she knows…she knows (instinctively) what we (adults) have forgotten…that LOVE…loves, cuz thats His nature, that’s what He does!! He loves…YOU!”

    mark: If it is gods nature to love then why would he choose to send millions of non christians to hell for simply picking the wrong religion?

    Also when god drowned thousands of babies was that love as well?

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @ Daniel

    “So how would a Christian with “perfect faith” act in everyday life? How would they go about doing life differently than me? How would miracles affect their todo lists, relationships, medical needs, food they ate, etc?”

    Good question. Not being one i can’t say for sure but i do have some thoughts.

    I think a lot of it has to do with expectations and trust. If you believe that God will always provide then your trusting him not yourself to provide. so you have no food or money to get food then you trust that God will provide that. But if you have money and no food then to expect God to have food magicaly appear is silly as far as i’m concerned. God has in some way blessed you with the capacity to get food then go get the food.

    I think it’s expectations in the end. you have no reason to expect to get say money to pay a bill you dont’ have money for. if a person of perfect faith was there they would trust God to provide.

    medically, they trust God speaking to them. so it could mean they take a treatment that he has told them to and expects to live when the odds say they won’t because they feel this is where God called told them to do.

    i don’t know how it would affect relationships but i’m sure it would. i just don’t know how.

    an example that for you is probably either a great coincidence, a cool story or for some they’ll think i’m lieing but none the less. My older brother and his wife had relatively no money when they got married. their rent was due and they were $500 short. they prayed and hoped they could come up with the money. well the day came and so they prayed that the landlord would understand. as he walked out the door attached to the outside handle was an envelop with exactly $500 in it.

    he and i think God provided when they had no way. he doesn’t expect it to every happen again, but he knows that God will provide.

    if nothing else it’s kinda a cool story.

  • guiltyhere

    @Philip:

    “they prayed and hoped they could come up with the money”

    I’m sorry, but I fail to see how this makes any reasonable sense. Instead of praying…why not spend that time looking for a paying job?

    “outside handle was an envelop with exactly $500 in it”

    Suuure….and santa magically gets gifts under my tree each year…I just have to believe enough…and be good. (Because he knows if I’ve been naughty or nice.)

  • Ty

    “if nothing else it’s kinda a cool story.”

    What makes me sad is that a mythical god gets the credit, instead of the incredibly kind person who left the 500 dollars for them.

  • guiltyhere

    @Ty: exactly my point!

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @Ty

    your very right. that person should get the credit for being so generous. they however chose not to say who they were it was just there.

    my guess is that God asked them to do it and they did. that being so the story is even better to me. not to take away from the generosity of that person because thats huge but it just adds it to me.

    i’ve had a similar experience where i was the one who gave the money and then latter hering how it blessed the family (they didn’t know it was me and i didnt’ do it for cerdit so i didn’t say anything) helped my faith. they were praying for God to help and God asked me to give when i didn’t think i had enough to give. turned out i did in the end and they were able to buy food for their family. I don’t take credit ’cause i wouldn’t have done it if God hadn’t told me to.

  • guiltyhere

    @Philip:

    “i wouldn’t have done it if God hadn’t told me to.”

    What did his voice sound like? Baritone, tenor, bass? I’m intrigued!

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @ guiltyhere

    no it’s quite and soft. a real gentle feel to it.

  • Question-I-thority

    @Guiltyhere

    Instead of praying…why not spend that time looking for a paying job?

    (SIGH)

    The Bible tells us that instead of getting jobs to pay their taxes Jesus told the disciples to go fishing and when they did they found a gold coin in the mouth of a fish! With miracles all things are literally friggin possible. Or not. You can cut the bait anyway you want. Just ask the True Followers of the 1000′s of different Christian sects. God works in misterious ways His xbgwougg mbbbs prac prac sisismunct!

    /sarcasm off

  • guiltyhere

    @Philip:

    “no it’s quite and soft. a real gentle feel to it.”

    Yes, yes…but even a quiet and gentle voice has a timbre to it. And I must warn you…once you start admitting that you are actually hearing a voice in your head telling you to do things…thats a slippery slope to some anti-psychotic meds.

  • guiltyhere

    @question:

    Ah! How silly of me!

  • http://www.as.wvu.edu/~dray/ David

    @Voice

    “Yes there are those who are foolish in their ideas about what they think God wants, who have bought into a position such as “Christian Science” which opposes any form of health care. But this is a cult, not Christianity.”

    Ahh. Its been a while since I saw the “No true Scotsman” in action. Thank you for renewing my faith in fundamentalists. Isn’t it they who think you are the cult?

  • John C

    @Daniel…

    I went to lunch…the Lord reminded me of the candy-wrapper story I told you when I first logged on to UF.

    Go back and read it…where did that story come from?? It wasn’t me, not something I just made up.

    There is a life…behind the veil of the flesh…in the spirit.

    JC

  • John C

    @TY…

    Only ALMOST charming? lol sorry…will try harder next time…

    Love…you know my thoughts on the subject!! Ad Nauseum by now…lol

    WOW…no drug like the LOVE drug…

    Are you Groovy? Hip? Its Far OUT man…but He is WITHIN!!

    The real life is on the inside…forget what your eyes see, these eyeballs of ours are not too trustworthy, they have been known to lie…BIG TIME!! HOW MUCH??

    Behind the veil…there is a LIFE

    Now go and PROVE IT, PROVE IT I SAY!!!

    God………….IS…………….LOVE

    (you know, I really need a job huh?) lol

    JC

  • Val

    @Daniel Florien to John C, re “Parse This!”

    Ha ha!
    LQTMS

    Well Crowed!

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @guiltyhere

    “Yes, yes…but even a quiet and gentle voice has a timbre to it. And I must warn you…once you start admitting that you are actually hearing a voice in your head telling you to do things…thats a slippery slope to some anti-psychotic meds.”

    yeah but as long as those things are good no one seams to care :) but seriously i do know how crazy it sounds.

  • guiltyhere

    @Philip:

    “yeah but as long as those things are good no one seams to care :) but seriously i do know how crazy it sounds.”

    As someone who works in the mental health field, I feel the need to recommend that you consult with a professional about this issue. The voice(s) might be nice now…but there is no guarantee that they will remain that way.

  • guiltyhere

    I would also like to say that it would be wonderful for people to help one another because they care about their fellow human being and not because some magical sky daddy told them it would be a good idea. It really seems to cheapen the whole ideal.

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    “it would be wonderful for people to help one another because they care about their fellow human being and not because some magical sky daddy told them”

    mark: Amen to this statement right here.

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @guiltyhere

    “I would also like to say that it would be wonderful for people to help one another because they care about their fellow human being and not because some magical sky daddy told them it would be a good idea. It really seems to cheapen the whole ideal.”

    i guess you could take that point of view. i would say that inherent in that act for me was a desire to help people i care about. God asked me to do it but i still had to choose to do it. and if i didn’t care for people i could choose to do it just because God asked and that would be enough. But my desire to help people is a part of me. God drew to my attention a need i didn’t know existed and i didn’t know i would be able to afford with out him. if that cheapens it for you then there’s nothing i can do about that.

  • Question-I-thority

    I have been interested for quite some time in the following question: Why do people tend to associate the bliss range of emotions with the supernatural. I grew up in such an environment and even today am able to create bliss states at will. In fact, as I type this I am feeling all goosebumply, tingly like. It’s the same sort of thing I used to ascribe to God.

  • Barry

    @ John c

    I wasn’t attacking you from an athestic perspective, but you seem to be putting everything above your line in the realm of the unknowable. Once you force someone to make that existential leap of faith, your brand has no more validity than the next religion or philosophy beacause you’ve freed yourself from any rational inquiry.

  • guiltyhere

    @Philip:

    First of all I must say that I admire your willingness to engage in conversation with people who have very different beliefs than you and that you always do it in such a respectful and congenial manner.

    “God drew to my attention a need i didn’t know existed and i didn’t know i would be able to afford with out him.”

    1. God didn’t draw your attention to anything…someone told you (a real physical person).
    2. You could afford it because you gave them the money. There is no other explanation necessary. god didn’t do a budget analysis for you and explain how you could afford it. You just did it and made it work. The same way we all make it work when we want to give/spend money.

  • Question-I-thority

    Guiltyhere or Daniel

    How do you get an icon to appear in posts instead of the comp generated squiggle?

  • http://progressatallcost.blogspot.com/ markbey

    “God asked me to do it but i still had to choose to do it. and if i didn’t care for people i could choose to do it just because God asked and that would be enough. ”

    mark: Are you serious, you actually heard god ask you to do something. This type of thinking scares me because anyone can claim that god spoke to them or asked them to do something.

    According Jim Jones god told him to poison the Kool aid of hundreds of his followers.

    I think the ” god spoke to me” claim is one of the most vile and dangerous statements anyone could ever make. How does a person listening to this claim know you whether or not you are serious or are in need of medication?

  • guiltyhere

    @question:

    You can go to gravatar.com and do it there or simply sign up for a wordpress account and do it through there. Whichever you prefer.

  • John C

    Btw…He’s not a “sky God”, Jesus didnt teach that, quite the opposite…where did He say we could find Him??

    Hint…hint…you dont have to look very far.

    JC

  • guiltyhere

    @John:

    Honestly all I hear is “blather, blather, love, blather” when you speak. Its seriously just white noise at this point.

    LOVE YOU!!!!!!

  • RobotzAreAwesome

    Nice to know we’re not that different after all.

  • guiltyhere

    I just realized what all of John C.’s posts remind me of. It’s like he thinks all of us are on a spiritual treasure hunt. His job is to give us vague and ambiguous clues to help us along in finding the treasure….but he doesn’t want to come right out and tell us, because that would ruin all the fun. Just as I assumed all along…he thinks it’s a game.

  • John C

    @Guilty…

    I know…I’m kinda goofy today, got lots of joy, peace. Why? Oh, glad you asked (lol) Why is it that I have all this PEACE, all this LOVE, all this JOY??!!

    I dunno…couldn’t tell ya! lol

    JC

  • John C

    Somebody’s gotta live’n this dead forum up!! WAY UP!

    But seriously, normally I’m not this silly, I’m just full (of somethin lol) today and you guys are the beneficiaries! (sorry) ha

    How does one become so FULL anyway? No, I’m not constipated with a food baby…I just LOVE HIM and HE just LOVES ME!

    Btw…not only is He LIFE & PEACE, but He is also JOY, JOY UNSPEAKABLE!!!

    Hmm…its a beautiful day in the neighborhood…the neighborhood…

    DeluSONal JC

    ha

  • John C

    @Barry…

    Its cool, I dont get offended…I appreciate the dialogue…no worries my friend.

    JC

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @ guiltyhere

    “First of all I must say that I admire your willingness to engage in conversation with people who have very different beliefs than you and that you always do it in such a respectful and congenial manner.”

    thank you, i try really hard.

    “1. God didn’t draw your attention to anything…someone told you (a real physical person).
    2. You could afford it because you gave them the money. There is no other explanation necessary. god didn’t do a budget analysis for you and explain how you could afford it. You just did it and made it work. The same way we all make it work when we want to give/spend money.”

    ok well, no one told me to do it so perhaps i have a mental problem but seriously no person told me to give them money.

    Yeah there is a possibility that i just gave some money and it all worked out and it could just have easily not worked out. I choose to believe that God blessed that action and provided the money i needed to pay my bills.

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @ mark

    “According Jim Jones god told him to poison the Kool aid of hundreds of his followers.

    I think the ” god spoke to me” claim is one of the most vile and dangerous statements anyone could ever make. How does a person listening to this claim know you whether or not you are serious or are in need of medication?”

    well i am serious that i believe God spoke to me and continues to speak to me. we have a relationship, thats why i pray. its builds our relationship.

    But to your point yeah i understand what you saying. of course i sound crazy. i accept that. i guess that i would have to take some sort of physic test and see if i am in fact crazy.

  • http://mixingtracks.blogspot.com professoryackle

    @philip & guiltyhere

    I think it’s a case of order of magnitude. If someone “hears” god telling them to donate money and such-like every once in a while, and leads an otherwise normal life, that’s one thing. If someone is convinced God tells them constantly to go kill prostitutes, or get hundreds of followers to join a commune and train with guns, that’s another thing entirely.

    The one needn’t lead to another; it’s not necessarily a slippery slope. If I met someone at the lesser end of the spectrum I’d look out for other warning signs, such as anger issues, narcissism, control-freakery, egomania etc. In the absence of those, I’d conclude the voice-hearing person was perhaps deluded (though who am I to say?) but otherwise sane and well-intentioned.

  • Elemenope

    John C –

    You never answered my question.

    Do you understand that “Oh how you love to mock & ridicule that which you do not comprehend…and you consider yourselves to be so very wise…in your own eyes.

    But you are as mere men…and so you see in one (limited, human) mode, pride obscures your vision and you are far from God, from light from revelation…or are you?” is judgmental, and not in the good way?

  • Val

    @Bill:
    This reminds me of something that happened to me a few years ago. I was traveling with my family. (Me, my wife and 4 kids) At the end of a looong day of driving we stopped for dinner. At the end of the meal I asked the waitress for the check, and she informed me that some stranger had paid it and left a message. “Bless You.”
    Boy did that piss me off. The assumptions that must have gone in to that decision really irked me.
    Now I know it was probably just some crazy person who heard a voice tell them to pick up my tab.

    I propose another probable cause. People – at least here in the USA – love the saying, “Practice random kindness and acts of senseless beauty.”

    It is far, much easier to do a random good deed only whenever the hell you damn well feel like it (with the motive of feeling good about yourself and how wonderful you are), than it is to do the hard, continual work of examination of yourself and your values, thinking, seeking the facts, considering the welfare of others as well as yourself, and doing the right, considerate, ethical thing instead of the easy thing.

    Developing character is lifelong work and people are lazy – look around! Random acts are a kicky impulse; easy-breezy-girl, “morality lite”, less filling.

    Random acts of kindness and senseless acts of beauty are for random, senseless idiots.

  • Val

    A few examples.

    Two high school girls in Santa Rosa, CA rescue a bunny out of biology class before dissection starts. Also in Santa Rosa, a kitten shot by an arrow is saved (which is wonderful – the veterinarian learned how at veterinary school, not some feel-good weekend spiritual retreat), and there is a lottery to see which of the hundreds of applicants get to adopt it. How many of these simpletons are making sure their own pets are neutered, thinking hard before getting a pet to make sure they can support it for life, educating others to neuter pets, helping at shelters? Did the two dumb broads (I think girls even go to the restroom in pairs) ever take their animal-saving efforts beyond one silly kicky impulse out into hard volunteer work, year after year, to keep all the other animals (beyond that one!) from a hard life and unnecessary death?

    Put a quarter in someone’s parking meter today! Aren’t you wonderful! It’s ever so much easier than campaigning for different city laws and policies, or fair wages and equal insurance for all. SO much easier than standing up to management at your company! Daily, yearly financial responsibility or regular donations to an charity or abortion rights action league – that’s too much work!

    Smile at someone today! Then you never have to look at your own habits: how are you inconsiderate of others with your noise, your driving, your parking, your brats running wild, your contribution to overpopulation?

  • zach

    I’ve come to the conclusion that christians aren’t real and are merely a figment of my imagination.

    oh how I wish it was so.

  • Elemenope

    @ Bill (from thread above)

    Not odd at all. Based on conversations with a number of people I know (both atheists and believers) it seems to be a common one.

    My reaction actually had more to do with giving charity where it wasn’t needed or wanted than anything else. But, the religious overtone definitely aggravated the situation.

    Are you seriously saying that “bless you” in that context has anything other than a religious meaning?

    If it was coming from a person like my late grandmother (who was not a theist except in the vicinity of a sneeze), I guarantee it was just a salutation of kindliness. I’m sure she wasn’t the only one who used it that way.

    Sure, it’s possible that there was some religious sentiment behind it, but since it is extremely likely the person who paid the check had not the slightest clue what your religious persuasion was, I’m having trouble understanding why on Earth it matters what they meant by it.

    I think I would find it very tiresome to go through life assuming the worst or most offensive thing about ambiguous or innocuous acts, especially ones of kindness. I guess I’m just having a great deal of trouble wrapping my head around the idea that a person can be legitimately offended by an objectively beneficial act that is clearly not meant with malice. I mean, the guy didn’t condition the payment of the check on you praying with him or listening to what he had to say, did he?

  • John C

    @Elemeno-

    I am not judging you or anyone else, it is not (currently) possible for you to see in but one (natural) realm since you dis-believe the truth that Truth has spoken. It is therefore impossible for you to see in the other (spiritual) realm. I am merely pointing out the reality of this other realm which is not visible to the natural eye, but nonetheless is very substantive and accessible.

    We are held accountable to the privilege of our revelation, we are responsible for the truth we know, the light we have been afforded. And how do we receive this light? This revelation? What must we…do? Only believe and receive.

    No judgment Elemeno…I am no better than you or any one here believe me. I have no “superiority complex”. I just have an insatiable desire for the…more that LIFE Himself offers and, as we are told “the kingdom suffers violence, and the violent take it by force”…meaning we stubbornly pursue the eternal realm, the benefits of the kingdom here and now until we attain the high ground.

    No judgment…at all. There is more…than meets the eye, that’s all I’m (tryin) to say…my apologies if it offended you, that was not my intention.

    JC

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @bill

    i couldn’t reply up top so i’m doing it here

    “Who knew about the need for $500 and could afford to give?”

    i guess someone could have, but from my understanding they didn’t tell anyone.

    when i gave money to someone i wasn’t told by anyone, other than God, that they needed it but i was one of 3 people who gave the family exactly what they were praying for. i didn’t find out until years later that they were praying for it when the daughter was sharing the story of how God provided for them.

    I’ll concede that you could see it aa coincidence or that i’m lying but that’s the story.

  • Ty

    “Are you Groovy? Hip? Its Far OUT man…but He is WITHIN!!”

    I smoked pot once, does that count? It didn’t do much for me, but definitely more than any gods ever did.

    Philip, I’ve given money without claiming credit lots of times. Merely out of a desire to help. And if I met your god, I’d spit in his eye. So who’s telling me to be so generous? I wonder.

    Giving god credit for things we do lessens us.

  • Fleegman

    @John C: Why don’t you ever actually answer a question with a thought out response? Is it because you don’t know the answer, or that you don’t want to actually think about the question because you can’t actually hear it? Are you really deaf to these questions and to anything else that steps outside the bounds of what you’re convinced is the truth?

    From what I’ve seen, this is how it plays out:
    ———-

    John C: The merciful loving God is within ME! He LOVES US ALL. That’s so…amazing!

    Atheist: How can you talk about a loving God when he kills countless babies and adults in the flood, and will torture you for all eternity for not loving him as well as the billions who have different religions? Where is the so called mercy?

    John C: Yay, God is so LOVING! I love…you all! Your questions increase my…faith all the more! God. Is. Love!
    ———-

    You sir, are brainwashed. You can’t answer the questions because you can’t understand the questions from within the delusional bubble in which you live.

    I think it’s rather sad, but you sound happy. It’s a shame you can’t attribute anything good to yourself or the people around you, though. Just please try to remember that if all the good things come from your God, the bad things come from him too. Not Satan. If you insist, though, God created Satan too, didn’t he? Haha, it’s kind of weird knowing that the last few sentences will not actually understood by your programmed mind. Really amazing stuff, eh, that confirmation bias / cognitive dissonance thing you’ve got going on, there?

    Hey you guys hear about that Amish family that were cast out because they had a telephone in their house? And that they were reading from an English translation of the Bible, rather than the “original” German one? Where does it talk about not having telephones in the house in the Bible? The stupid. It burns.

    While I’m here, I also notice that a lot of religious folk confuse the term faith with trust. Skeptico wrote a great post on the difference, but I don’t know how to post a link. Do a search; it’s a good one.

    Small quote from that post (commenting on a recent email exchange):

    “Just because a dictionary gives definitions of the two words, and some of the definitions are similar, that doesn’t mean that trust in the scientific method is the same as faith. Nova even debunked her own point by writing “Planes don’t fly on “trust”. They fly on physics.” Yes. But I don’t need to understand the physics to get on a plane. I get on a plane because I trust that planes fly – and that trust is based on what we see in the real world (all those planes in the sky) not on faith.”

    Later peeps,

  • http://blog.calumnist.com/ Danny

    Re: Original post

    As someone who lives in a predominantly-catholic third world nation, I can say for a fact that a lot of christians still do believe in miracles.

  • http://www.artformfunction.com Michael

    I have often thought that if Christians actually believed in God and the Bible then Christian funerals would be celebrations (unless you thought the deceased was going to hell). What could be better than going to heaven? It is like a wedding, graduation, promotion, and eternal life all wrapped up in one!

  • latsot

    My dad claims to believe in the olden-days miracles without a single caveat. It’s the main reason he believes in the christian god.

    And yet, he doesn’t believe at all in contempary miracles and cannot explain why miracles worked in the olden days and don’t now.

  • marcion

    “Could it be that medicine is a miracle of God…that He gave the scientists the skill and the drive to find cures…”

    It could be and is a fact that we didn’t have it until the advent of Christianity and more particularly Protestantism. The whole loving your neighbor as yourself thing is kind of necessary to societal advancement. That’s why we are degenerating into a worthless society now, because we’ve lost it.

  • http://metroblog.blogspot.com Metro

    @Marcion:
    Are you saying that protestantism gave rise to advanced medicine?

    As to your claim that “we are degenerating into a worthless society now” …

    How do you measure that–what standard are you using?

    In North America and Europe one’s person and property are generally secure, and that’s backed with the force of law. One is free to bow the knee to whatever preeminent fantasy one believes in pretty much without hinderance. Human rights have never been so highly regarded and prized in the civilized world.

    Would you prefer to be living in the 1500s? Or in Zimbabwe? Or do you have some roseate view of the 1950s?

    What was the best era to live in, do you think, and in exactly what ways was it better than now?

    Perhaps you’d have preferred living in the Roman Empire circa 30 A.D.? When a certain rabble-rousing preacher was barnstorming around? Of course your life expectancy was much lower, and you’d and there was no world beyond your daily work, and if you couldn’t work there was no social safety net, no insurance and no support.

    Yeah, 2009 sure does suck, eh?

  • marcion

    “How do you measure that–what standard are you using?”

    All our stuff is made in China. China doesn’t care if their product kills you or not. That’s why they put plastic in gluten and paint pills (not just toys) with lead. And our government clearly does care either, or they would not permit or rather CAUSE the Chinese takeover of all our industries. So, basically “love your neighbor” is out the window. The freaks in our government only care about themselves, and the corporations in China only care about themselves, and both realize that they can make a large profit without considering anything about the quality of the product or trade agreement.

    “Yeah, 2009 sure does suck, eh?” Just wait around a few months, moron.

    “Would you prefer to be living in the 1500s? Or in Zimbabwe? Or do you have some roseate view of the 1950s?” I would prefer to be living in 2000-2008, actually. The corruption is getting ready to increase so much it will come up your butt crack and spew out your nose.

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    I don’t know if Daniel keeps track of such things, but I nominate Ty’s post for Post of the Year consideration.

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    Couldn’t agree more.

  • Confuseddave

    When christians train each other to evangelise, they talk about sowing a seed. Nobody’s mind is changed by debate – especially when changing your mind means changing your worldview – and everyone comes to a debate with their heels dug in and sure of their own point of view. The value of a debate in changing someones mind is that you have planted the seed of your argument in their mind.

    While christians couch this in the concept of God working on that person, in reality it’s just a product of human psychology. As such, it’s a two way street – he spreads his good news to us, we spread logic and reason to him. Maybe he’ll harden himself with dogma and the seed of reason will wither and die. Maybe other christians will come in with faulty logic and circular arguments and snap up the seeds that are left. But maybe, just maybe, at some point down the line he’ll ask himself some honest, genuine questions about the veracity of his faith, and the seeds of critical thinking will flower.

    It’s a long shot, but hey, it worked for some of us.

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    Really? You think there was some crazy person hearing voice – who also happened to have $500 burning a hole in his pocket – and he solved the problem? This is really what you believe? Of all the possible explanations for what happened, this is the one that makes the most sense to you? Seriously?

    This reminds me of something that happened to me a few years ago. I was traveling with my family. (Me, my wife and 4 kids) At the end of a looong day of driving we stopped for dinner. At the end of the meal I asked the waitress for the check, and she informed me that some stranger had paid it and left a message. “Bless You.”

    Boy did that piss me off. The assumptions that must have gone in to that decision really irked me.

    Now I know it was probably just some crazy person who heard a voice tell them to pick up my tab.

  • Audrey

    I’m sure it echoes too, Phillip.

  • Elemenope

    That’s kind of an odd reaction to such a charitable gesture.

    And unless he threw a “God” in front of the “Bless You”, I’m thinking there were more than enough assumptions going around for the both of you.

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @ bill

    i try to be as open minded as possible. where do you think $500 dollars show up from?

    considering it was a basement apartment of a farm house. so it wasn’t the first door it was the down some stairs, happened as he was going to say they didn’t have the money and as i said was a lone house out in the middle of nowhere.

    i’m guessing from your response that my solution wasn’t a good one. what do you think is one?

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  • guiltyhere

    @professor:

    But I must respectfully disagree in that it is not a black and white issue. You are not either giving money to the poor or killing prostitutes. There is a wide range of sociopathic, troublesome, harmless, or even somewhat beneficial (such as giving money to poor) ideas that get tossed around in the idea of “being spoken to by god”. Just because you are okay one day does not mean it will always be that way.

    This reminds me of a book I recently read: “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer. Its about the bloody history of the Mormon religion. The guys that ended up killing people weren’t always sociopaths…some even held regular lives before being sucked into the whole religion. But in the end they were saying that god called them to kill people. Very interesting read which I would highly recommend.

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    I question whether the instances – like Phillip described – invove actually “hearing” god. Does the average person who leads an otherwise normal life actually hear a voice saying: “go forth and give Joe Blow $500?” I don’t think so. Hearing of voices is reserved for the seriously mentally ill.

    What Phillip is describing is more of the inner feelings that theists are so fond of. He feels like its a good idea to give money to someone in need (and it may well be), and he attributes that feeling to god’s presence.

  • Elemenope

    I do, however, thoroughly prefer it to the indulgence of random acts of cruelty and senseless acts of debasement, or even (perhaps especially!) random acts of capriciousness and senseless acts of bureaucratic neutrality.

    I’d definitely rather a person be inconsistently nice than consistently morally inert.

    Not you?

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    Truthfully, I didn’t expect my little story to get reaction.

    I agree – partially. People do tend to avoid the hard work of examining self, and that would be a better exercise than just giving for the sake of feeling good about yourself. That being said, I favor charity no matter what the motivation.

    A few things bothered me about the incident.

    1. I have no need or want for charity. I can easily pay for my family’s meal. That money could have gone to someone who really could have used it. (Which is ultimately what I did with it.) The donor clearly made assumptions about need, probably based on how we looked after 10 hours in the car together.

    Because the giver had no idea if the receiver was in need of charity, and he wasn’t, it seems to me the purpose was to make the giver feel good.

    2. The “bless you” indicated a religious tactic that I disliked. Seemed to me an attempt to convey a message that god is responsible for the gift. A form of witnessing.

    3. I admit this may be an unfair assumption, but I’ve run in to this problem more than a few times. With a family of our size people often assume we are religious and treat us accordingly. I (perhaps unfairly) saw some of that possibly at play here. That gets on my nerves.

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    Not odd at all. Based on conversations with a number of people I know (both atheists and believers) it seems to be a common one.

    My reaction actually had more to do with giving charity where it wasn’t needed or wanted than anything else. But, the religious overtone definitely aggravated the situation.

    Are you seriously saying that “bless you” in that context has anything other than a religious meaning?

  • Elemenope

    Yeah, I get it would be better if they were consistently and programmatically conscientious. (That can be taken too far, too, I might add.) But isn’t this a case of the perfect shooting the good in both kneecaps? Isn’t it better (for the bunnies) that they saved the bunnies than dissected them? Isn’t it better for a guy who’s meter was about to run out to not get a ticket than to get one? To wit, isn’t it better if a person is selfish 90% of the time rather than 100%?

    I mean, I could make a case that the world would be better off if the average high school included a class or two on philosophy or economics. It’s not likely to happen any time soon, and so I don’t bother dwelling on how much better the world would be in that case, and work with the world that I have.

    I guess this is another case of me not being able to wrap my head around people complaining about good things not being *good enough*.

    Also, dude, threads. They’re, like, the new crack. :)

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    See response above for further explanation.

    The new thread in thread feature may create some confusion for a while.

  • http://wmute.livejournal.com/ wintermute

    God has raised up all governments that exist.

    Even those fundamental Muslim governments who make being Christian a crime punishable by death?

    That God is a real bastard, isn’t he?

  • LRA

    “I believe that God can and sometimes does work a miracle of grace in the lives of people”

    And YET! it is completely arbitrary! Gee, it would seem that ‘God’ has no reliable system of rules about who gets ‘saved’ and who dies. It almost has a ‘natural’ pattern…

    ” To not avail myself of such a blessing is the same as the man who heard a sermon on God’s protection and so took the breakneck road home and went over a cliff to his death. It was said that he was predestined to be a fool and made his calling and election sure!”

    Predestined? So “God” creates us just to destroy us? Evil.

    “Praise God for the skill He gave to the pilot of that plane and for granting that all aboard survived!”

    No. Praise Sully. God had nothing to do with it.

    “Christian Science” which opposes any form of health care. But this is a cult, not Christianity”

    Paging Mr. Scotsman, Mr. True Scotsman. You have a phone call on line “wilderness”

    “who on this planet has lived forever”

    So those people died at god’s will, but the *miracle on the hudson* proves god’s mercy? I mean, there was a 9/11 widow on the plane!

    “death by plane crash is a horrific way to go but it doesn’t begin to compare with the agony of those who will experience the Justice of God due them for their sins”

    So, love him or be tortured? Not love, but obsession!!!

    “When you stand before the Great White Judgment Throne you will no longer be an atheist…but then it will be too late!”

    Yeah, a real loving god here.

  • Val

    Voice from the Wilderness
    I guarantee that death by plane crash is a horrific way to go but it doesn’t begin to compare with the agony of those who will experience the Justice of God due them for their sins.

    Has anyone besides me noticed how many “loving” Christians say something like:

    “After you die, you will be in for a BIG surprise. And then it will be too late! Bwaaaaahahahahaaaa…
    After denying myself in this life I will finally get mine [good stuff], and after living a sinful life, you will finally get yours [really bad stuff] for all eternity!
    You will finally see how wrong you are and I will finally get to be right!”

    They word it a bit differently each time, but not that differently.

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    Who knew about the need for $500 and could afford to give?

    From that list of people, someone decided to pony up $500.

    Not because god told them to, but because they are decent person who wanted to help.

    It’s that simple.

  • http://mixingtracks.blogspot.com professoryackle

    Oh, sure. I meant it’s a sliding scale of order of magnitude… at one end giving to the poor, at the other killing prostitutes. And all shades in between. Sorry, I shoud have worded it better.

    I guess also there are stages in indoctrination, especially where cults are concerned. But I don’t think that’s what Philip was talking about – he comes across as sensible, albeit holding different beliefs from mine

  • Elemenope

    That’s all pretty understandable.

    My S.O. and I argue fairly constantly about stuff like this on the basis of we tend to see the glass differently (I’m the half-full guy). So, we differ on what the appropriate reactions would be to a person who says, for example “I’ll pray for you”. I generally say “thanks”. She (who is also an Atheist) is offended in the same situation, and I *intellectually* understand the argument why, but somehow it feels wrong to me.

    Different wiring, I guess.

  • Elemenope

    [Sigh.]

    I really do appreciate that it is not your *intent* to pass judgment. What you’re not getting is that it is excruciatingly hard to read some of your comments otherwise.

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    Perhaps – and I will admit to being a “glass half empty” guy.

  • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

    This is a great question.

    Any takers?

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    @prof

    thank you!

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    nope no echo

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    i mean i make mistakes, i do things i shouldn’t, i say one thing and do another then get angry with myself for doing it. i mean i’m human, an imperfect human who makes mistakes.

    i thought that might be some common ground.

  • John C

    Dont ya hate that, when God loves on you, blesses you…anyway? You would think that Love Himself would have better manners than to love on someone who doesnt even believe in Him!!! Ugg…I mean, doesnt He know??

    Geez…the nerve of that guy! lol

    Love is just like that, we get what we don’t deserve, things like mercy, grace, forgiveness, compassion, kindness…all those things we just love to…hate!!

    Next time, try wearin’ a sandwich board sign that say’s…DONT DO ME ANY FAVORS!!!!

    I’m pickin on ya man…good story though, thx for sharing…edifies me, increases my faith all the more!

    JC

  • charlie

    Voice from the Wilderson- I thought you were JC.

  • LRA

    Please make a specific point.

  • LRA

    So, reasonable dialogue is just too much?
    Riddles are the order of the day?

  • Confuseddave

    I’m a little confused by why you think that this “anyone who isn’t a christian doesn’t understand” screed is appropriate on a blog whose raison d’etre is apostasy – that is, a former fundamentalist christian criticising his own religion.

    Given there are quite a few of us here who were once passionate, born again christians who were initiated into this secret knowledge, and found it distinctly lacking, your mystical “you only mock because you don’t comprehend” argument sounds very, very hollow.

    For the record, 1 Corinthians 1:18 – which appears to be the sentiment underpinning this post – is one of a small collection of most loathed, despicable and circular verses in the bible. It’s message is: “it’s okay if people apply critical thinking to your belief and find you wanting, that’s fine because they’re not supposed to understand.” It’s a slimy evasion from having to defend yourself against reality.

  • LRA

    rAmen! Yarrrgh!

    May all be touched by the noodley appendage!

    http://www.venganza.org/

  • Jabster

    …. and I presume you’ll also going to post a long list of all the things they prayed for that didn’t happen? See that’s how it works and now at this point you can claim that god doesn’t work like that but out of the thousands upon thousand of things he could have chosen to do that day who choose this one? In addition I’m pretty sure that god could have prevented the situation arising ion the first place but choose not to — why did he do that?

    It’s clear that it’s just a coincidence and they happen all the time — indeed that fact that they do occur is a strong indication that a god(s) doesn’t exists not that he does.

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  • http://wmute.livejournal.com wintermute

    I definitely think economics should be taught in high school. At least at a basic level so that school leavers understand how to balance an account, calculate compound interest and other assorted real-life tasks.

    The problem is that with standardised testing, NCLB and everything else, there’s a paucity of time in the school week, and it’s hard to make room for “luxuries” (read: anything we’re not already doing) like that.

    America really needs a root-and-branch overhaul of its educational system. The problem is, which of the various paradigms do you go with? Variations on the existing model, which has been extensively tested but doesn’t seem to work well, or something relatively poorly tested that sounds good on paper?

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    i didn’t say all acts of kindness or generosity were because God told someone to. I’d like to think that people are generous and value their fellow man enough to help them whenever they were in need.

    This was just one example of 2 times in my view God provided.

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    “and I presume you’ll also going to post a long list of all the things they prayed for that didn’t happen? ”

    i can if you’d like

    “In addition I’m pretty sure that god could have prevented the situation arising ion the first place but choose not to — why did he do that?”

    yeah i suppose he could have given them loads of money from the get go and they would have never been in this situation. He never promises that we will all have more than we need or be rich but simply that he would take care of us. Perhaps he chose to do it this way to show that he can be trusted even when things get bad not just when they are good.

    that or its a freaky coincidence

  • Restless D

    @ Danny

    “I can say for a fact that a lot of Christians still do believe in miracles.”

    I don’t think that is the point of the topic…….

    They may SAY they believe…… THINK they believe….. but when it comes down to it they don’t in any way live there lives under the premise that miracles happen. They will approach situations the same as atheist with regarding decisions to medical care etc……

    “When it comes to the real world, Christians ACT just like atheists.”

    Act…. Not just say they believe in miracles.

    The difference is they confuse outcomes afterwards as miracles

  • Elemenope

    Hey you guys hear about that Amish family that were cast out because they had a telephone in their house? And that they were reading from an English translation of the Bible, rather than the “original” German one? Where does it talk about not having telephones in the house in the Bible? The stupid. It burns.

    It’s not about the telephones, per se. It is about the belief that modern conveniences *generally* promote sloth and discourage hard work. So they are in fact being consistent by applying their standards of simplicity to new situations. Hermeneutics is the name of the game.

  • Major Minor

    He sure never uttered the merest hint of an answer to all of somenone’s questions about hell.

  • Jabster

    “i can if you’d like”

    Yes I think to provide some sort of objectivity to this you should provide evidence.

    “yeah i suppose he could have given them loads of money from the get go and they would have never been in this situation.”

    Who said anything about loads of money? This was something that was ‘required’ and was well within god’s remit to have ensured that the situation did not arise.

    “Perhaps he chose to do it this way to show that he can be trusted even when things get bad not just when they are good.”

    … and perhaps he just doesn’t exist. I don’t understand how you can attribute this to god’s action yet seem to dismiss the countless other times that god decided not to intervene. This goes back to my question of why god chose to intervene in this situation yet chose not to in many thousands of other situations, just that day, that where far more dire than this. What attribute would you assign to someone that did this?

  • Fleegman

    “It’s not about the telephones, per se. It is about the belief that modern conveniences *generally* promote sloth and discourage hard work. So they are in fact being consistent by applying their standards of simplicity to new situations. Hermeneutics is the name of the game.”

    So they just made it up. Thanks for clarifying.

    I heard it was actually more to do with the wires coming into the house and bringing the sin of the world in with them. Which makes a lot more sense. Or it doesn’t.

  • Elemenope

    So they just made it up. Thanks for clarifying.

    You didn’t actually read the link, did you?

    At its simplest level, hermeneutics is about taking a fixed data set, like a set of rules or observations, and applying them to new situations which did not exist when the data set was formed. It’s not just a religious thing (it’s used a great deal in law, general ethical reasoning, and in interpretation of literature), though like most tools of reasoning, it was originally invented for religious purposes.

    And it’s not an ‘anything goes’ sort of thing, so your charge of them just “making it up” exhibits poor understanding of what it is we are talking about. Do yourself a favor and drop the smugly superior thing for a second and learn something about why this group actually does what it does. There is plenty to criticize about the Amish (for example, their insular social structure has demonstrably encouraged increases in sexual abuse). But throwing accusations and insults that have very little to do with how they made decisions about these things makes your position weak and your arguments unpersuasive.

  • Jeremy

    Obviously I was speaking of the majority of Christian churches. No doubt there are a few crazy exceptions, but for the most part the people filling churches act pretty sensibly when it comes to practical necessities like medical care and life insurance.

    Maybe they really do believe God will provide, they’re just giving Him a chance to provide via their insurance broker. :)

  • Fleegman

    @Elemenope

    You didn’t actually read the link, did you?

    Now who’s making accusations? Why wouldn’t I read it? Not the whole thing, I grant you (it was LOOOOOONG), but enough to get the gist. Hermeneutics, in this case, is about the interpretation of written texts; the Bible. Most of which was made up, and most of which is open to many different types of interpretation, accounting for a large number of Christian denominations and sects we see today. I stand by my original statement: they made it up.

    Oh, I’m not saying they didn’t spend many many years making it up. No, not at all. I realise that centuries of painstaking research has gone into interpreting scripture. This doesn’t change the fact that if someone’s beliefs aren’t rational, it doesn’t matter how long they’ve been interpreting scripture, their beliefs are still not rational, and still based on a book the contents of which don’t have a basis in reality.

    Do yourself a favor and drop the smugly superior thing for a second and learn something about why this group actually does what it does. There is plenty to criticize about the Amish (for example, their insular social structure has demonstrably encouraged increases in sexual abuse). But throwing accusations and insults that have very little to do with how they made decisions about these things makes your position weak and your arguments unpersuasive.

    1) How would that be doing myself a favour? If I took the time to find out in detail why the myriad religions do the things that they do, I’d be a very old man before you would say I was qualified to comment on religion in general. Sorry, I have better things to do with my free time. Oh, and what’s the betting that, if I took the time to look into this story in more detail, I would find that it actually got more and more stupid? In fact, I’ll do that this weekend. Let’s see what I find and which way it goes; I’ll try to be as objective as I can.

    2) I’m not just criticizing the Amish, here; they seemed like nice people in Witness. I’m criticizing all religions and they just kind of got in the way.

    3) From wiki:

    The Old Order Amish tend to restrict telephone use, as it is viewed by some as interfering with separation from the world. By bringing the outside world into the home, it is an intrusion into the privacy and sanctity of the family, and interferes with social community by eliminating face-to-face communication

    Is that so different from what I said? I’m sorry if my interpretation didn’t match up with yours. Interpretation is such a subjective thing isn’t it?

    4) Smugly superior? Well, ok, guilty as charged.

    Have a good weekend, folks!

  • Elemenope

    Lateral thread expansion FTW!!!

    How would that be doing myself a favour? If I took the time to find out in detail why the myriad religions do the things that they do, I’d be a very old man before you would say I was qualified to comment on religion in general. Sorry, I have better things to do with my free time. Oh, and what’s the betting that, if I took the time to look into this story in more detail, I would find that it actually got more and more stupid? In fact, I’ll do that this weekend. Let’s see what I find and which way it goes; I’ll try to be as objective as I can.

    You wouldn’t be a very old man. Heck, I’m not an old man. It really just takes…well, essentially what you ended up suggesting. A little time (like, say, a weekend) poking around in the actual reasons, decision-making processes, etc. that went into whatever it is you’re commenting about.

    When you make comments about the Amish specifically, it helps to know a little about how the Amish operate, and why they have chosen those methods of operation.

    Perhaps I was a little harsh with smugness comment, but reducing something like hermeneutics to “making it up” is like reducing biology to “hey, we saw an ape once!”. It misses the essence of the thing, in a dismissive sounding way to boot. That’s what provoked the reaction.

  • Fleegman

    …..reducing something like hermeneutics to “making it up” is like reducing biology to “hey, we saw an ape once!”

    ROFL, thanks for the laugh before the weekend. Yes, I am the king of the flippant comment. Speak to you next week.

  • http://thinworker.wordpress.com/ Philip

    Ok well my father is dieing of terminal cancer and i’ve prayed for a long time he’d be healed and he hasn’t. I prayed i’d get into a specific university at the time in my life and didn’t. I pray that my younger brother will stop using drugs and he doesn’t.

    “This was something that was ‘required’ and was well within god’s remit to have ensured that the situation did not arise.”

    i guess i just see it different. they had the money they needed when they needed it. just because it came last minute and not from a job doesn’t mean that they didn’t get the money. they had what they needed when they needed it. seams like God ensured that they could buy food.

    “I don’t understand how you can attribute this to god’s action yet seem to dismiss the countless other times that god decided not to intervene.”

    i’m not dismissing His choice to not intervene. I’m bothered by it and at times very angry with God. But in the end it’s his choice to make. all i can do is ask. i don’t know how he chooses or the reasoning he uses. within my understanding of God, limited as it is, is that he is smarter than me and is aware of more than i am. so maybe there is a reason he doesn’t some times or maybe he has chosen to to intervene because we have autonomy and are able to make decisions on our own, good or bad, and he respects out ability to choose.

  • Jabster

    “i don’t know how he chooses or the reasoning he uses. within my understanding of God, limited as it is, is that he is smarter than me and is aware of more than i am. so maybe there is a reason he doesn’t some times or maybe he has chosen to to intervene because we have autonomy and are able to make decisions on our own, good or bad, and he respects out ability to choose.”

    So god respects you fathers ‘decision’ to have a painful, shitty death from cancer? As far as I can see you are trying to explain away what has happened and just wish to put god’s mark on it in the best way you can. The real fact is what sort of god decides to act in a way that replicates what we would find if there was no god?

  • Confuseddave

    Or at least use comment threading, if all you’re going to do is affirm someone elses statement.

  • Confuseddave

    You’re utterly blind if you can’t see how loaded your post was with judgement. You judge (as mentioned above) that we are all unsaved, wheras a good few of were previously christians and came to realise from within that your faith really isn’t all that great.

    You also, as I suspect was El’s point, pass judgement on us (“you consider yourself very wise” – a statement I’d take issue with too, but that’s another story) and make a very clear judgement on the value of our wisdom.

  • Confuseddave

    Also prudence. I avoid eating in unhygeinic restaurants.

  • Confuseddave

    this.

  • Confuseddave

    Funny, that’s kind of what I thought when you started posting bald assertions based on an authority that we don’t recognise.

  • Confuseddave

    I was touched by a very similar testimony my friend shared. She is a christian, and she stepped out in faith and was provided for – but I was touched because the way she phrased her story, she individually thanked the people who had been generous (sometimes anonymously). There wasn’t a hint of “an angel came down and left $500 on my door”, but definitely “we have been provided with friends and neighbours who care about us and will help to support us when we need it”. In fact, I think she only credited God as giving her “a sense of peace” when she worried how she was going to provide for her children over christmas.

    I disagree with her unspoken interpretation – that all these are provided by God – but I respect the manner in which she presented what was to her a significant miracle.

  • Confuseddave

    I am tempted to suggest there have been minor changes to this story as well, such as the serendipity of the event or how precisely it matched the value of his bill.

  • Jabster

    “I would prefer to be living in 2000-2008, actually. The corruption is getting ready to increase so much it will come up your butt crack and spew out your nose.”

    So there was no corruption at all in that period then and what was going on then has no bearing at all on what is happening now?

  • Val

    Shoot! When we took down Saddam Hussein, we took down one of the ‘all governments which God hath raised up’!

  • Val

    VERY deaf ears!

    Appealing to something unsubstantiated in which the others do not believe is not accomplishing anything!

  • Val

    I found out that warm tingling sensation was me wetting myself or my cell phone set to “vibrate”.

  • Val

    LRA:

    “When you stand before the Great White Judgment Throne you will no longer be an atheist…but then it will be too late!”

    Yeah, a real loving god here.

    And real loving Christians there, too.

    Has anyone besides me noticed how many “loving” Christians say something like:

    “After you die, you will be in for a BIG surprise. And then it will be too late! Bwaaaaahahahahaaaa…

    After denying myself in this life I will finally get mine [good stuff], and after living a sinful life, you will finally get yours [really bad stuff] for all eternity!

    You will finally see how wrong you are and I will finally get to be right!”

    They word it a bit differently each time, but not that differently.

  • “Major Major”

    Confuseddave

    Given there are quite a few of us here who were once passionate, born again christians who were initiated into this secret knowledge, and found it distinctly lacking, your mystical “you only mock because you don’t comprehend” argument sounds very, very hollow.

    Yeah, John C. I’m another one, and it does.

    Very hollow.