In the Bible, there are many massacres. Here’s just a partial list to give you an idea:
- God killed everyone except a few people in a global flood [estimated at 30 million] (Gen 6)
- Killed all the innocent firstborn of Egypt [estimated at 500,000] (Ex. 11)
- Maimed and killed 42 children for calling a man “bald head” (2 Kings 2)
- Killed 15,000 people for complaining (Num 16)
- Killed 24,000 for immorality (Num 25)
- Killed 90,000 Midianites (Num 31)
- Killed everyone in the city of Jerico (Joshua 6)
- Killed 12,000 people in a day because they were in the “promised land” (Joshua 8)
- Killed 10,000 Canaanities because they were in the way (Judges 1)
- Killed 10,000 Moabites after using the Moabites to killed many of his own people (Judges 3)
- Made 120,000 Midianites kill each other (Judges 7)
- Killed 50,000 Benjaminites because they made God angry (Judges 20)
- Killed 70,000 men because David did what God told him to do (2 Sam 24)
- Killed 127,000 soldiers over a theological dispute (1 Kings 20)
- Killed 1,000,000 Ethiopians just because (2 Chron 14)
Just in that selective list, God killed about 32 million people!
Hilter only killed 11 million. Try as he might, he just couldn’t beat God’s record even with all that modern warfare technology.
The Bible might be one of the bloodiest books in history — especially for one thought of as perfect, pure, written by God, and the best and only guide for morality.
All I know is I wouldn’t want my children getting their morals from it.
Richard Dawkins, in The God Delusion, said:
The Bible story of Joshua’s destruction of Jericho, and the invasion of the Promise Land in general, is morally indistinguishable from Hilter’s invasion of Poland, or Saddam Hussein’s massacres of the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs.
Even if there was evidence that this God existed — and I know of none — would he really deserve to be worshiped? I don’t think so. This god would be the devil of hell.[digg=http://digg.com/arts_culture/God_Loves_To_Kill_His_Children]
Thank goodness he probably doesn’t exist.
[ reddit ]
Minus the flood, let’s compare God and Satan for a sec.
http://www.hennessy.id.au/quentingeorge/archives/god-v-satan.png
Hm!
I don’t see the tag “Humor”. Is it wrong that I am laughing at this? ^_^
Thank you for going to the trouble of counting up the numbers. This rocks. Keep it up.
This post reminded me of:
http://www.ffrf.org/books/bas/bas5.php
“Mass Killings Ordered, Committed,
Or Approved By God”
Would be pretty scary if it was true…
Fortunately, most likely all those stories were made up by the ancient israelites.
I find sickening that god likes the smell of flesh burning in fire. (Leviticus).
@Brian:
Yeah…he seems like one sick ticket to me too.
Now let’s look at that again. God killed 32 million people.
Still, you dumb ass atheist have killed more people then God. I guess atheist love to kill their brothers and sisters too.
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50)
49-78,000,000 million killed.
Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39)
3,000,000 (the purges plus Ukraine’s famine)
Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94)
1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
and I am just getting started. Seems to me like the real murders are atheist.
Point your finger where… in your own eye… hypocrites.
Oh dear. Do you really believe atheism was the foundation and guiding principle of those states? Perhaps you should gain a little perspective. Learn some history, perhaps.
I like it when christians defend this with (a) god is just, or (b) that’s the Old Testament, god’s totally different now.
(a) nothing just about any of that.
(b) god still likes a good human sacrifice.
May as well worship whoever’s leading the Bloods this week.
49-78,000,000 million killed.
Someone flunked math.
Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94)
1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
Someone does not understand that the situation in North Korea is a religion. Mysterious halo heralds Kim’s birthday in North Korea
Bertrand Russell classified Soviet Communism, with its unquestionable party dogma, as a religion.
What is an Agnostic?
The existence of base and cruel passions is undeniable, but I find no evidence in history that religion has opposed these passions. On the contrary, it has sanctified them, and enabled people to indulge them without remorse. Cruel persecutions have been commoner in Christendom than anywhere else. What appears to justify persecution is dogmatic belief. Kindliness and tolerance only prevail in proportion as dogmatic belief decays. In our day, a new dogmatic religion, namely, communism, has arisen. To this, as to other systems of dogma, the agnostic is opposed. The persecuting character of present day communism is exactly like the persecuting character of Christianity in earlier centuries. In so far as Christianity has become less persecuting, this is mainly due to the work of freethinkers who have made dogmatists rather less dogmatic. If they were as dogmatic now as in former times, they would still think it right to burn heretics at the stake. The spirit of tolerance which some modern Christians regard as essentially Christian is, in fact, a product of the temper which allows doubt and is suspicious of absolute certainties. I think that anybody who surveys past history in an impartial manner will be driven to the conclusion that religion has caused more suffering than it has prevented.
Keep in mind that the world’s population has increased since Biblical times, so that the carnage wrought by Yahweh 1.0 (pre-New Testament version) had more impact.
BcBera:
“you dumb ass atheist have killed more people then God”
1. How loving of you. Is that really how your Christian faith teaches you to interact with people who disagree with you?
2. I haven’t killed anyone.
3. See trj’s post.
I like it when people like BcBera decide to comment on blogs. His vitriolic rant makes me happy, because it means that something about atheism strikes a chord in him. I guess his reaction to that is to lash out blindly and ignorantly, like a chihuahua at your heels.
Now let’s look at that again. God killed 32 million people. Still, you dumb ass atheist have killed more people then God. I guess atheist love to kill their brothers and sisters too.
What an absurd argument for the race to the bottom.
If the best argument you’ve got is “Yeah, but my God still isn’t as bad as you people”……. consider that a huge clue as to the morality fail of the Bible God.
@McBera: God, if he exists, is a single being. So it only makes sense to compare him to another single being, not a collective. Let’s take me, for instance, because I happen to know a little about myself.
God has killed more than 32 million people in the Bible, plus all the people who have starved or drowned or struck by lightening etc. So we’re looking at billions and billions of people that God has killed and more each day. On top of that, billions of people have been killed in his name, which he never has lifted a finger to stop.
Compare that to me. I’ve never killed anyone. I’ve helped people when they were hurt. I wouldn’t even let a bastard like you drown, though your own god would.
And you have a problem with people like me, simply because we don’t believe in your sky-god? A person who would save your life, when your own god would let you die?
Huh. Interesting.
(Also, how does it work by calling “atheists” — by which you mean dictators — evil because they have killed people? You’d have to apply that judgement call to your own Heavenly Dictator, which would make him evil. Everyone here agrees with you that those people were evil — we’re just being consistent and applying the same criteria to your imaginary god.)
I’m guessing that was the last we’ll hear from BcBera. Just another drive-by ranting. It would be nice for once if a person regurgitating such clichés would at least defend them afterwards. But that’s too much to expect.
I wouldn’t even let a bastard like you drown, though your own god would.
Next he’ll claim that his God would save him by using you to do it.
I really don’t understand why people comment when they don’t disagree.
I didn’t think this blog was about debate, but apparently BcBera did.
Nothing bugs me more than closed-minded, ignorant people. >:|
Good blog though :) That’s a really, really good point. I’ve never thought about it like that.
Ah, I meant “agree.” Sorries
Ironically, this post came out on the same day. http://answerbearer.blogspot.com/2009/02/more-thoughts-on-gods-goodness.html
If I were a betting person, I’d bet good money we won’t see another of BcBera’s terminally stupid rantings. I’m sure he’s off praising his imaginary sky friend for having given him the grammatically incorrect fortitude to tell off those heathen atheist bastards.
@Mike aka Monolith:
Man, I just tried to read that blog you linked to–WTF? Why the frak did that person feel the need to have a screaming PINK background? If you were able to read that without having a seizure, then kudos to you!
if you actually read the story of the plagues of Egypt it’s even worse then just mass murder. It look like god is bent on going trough with all the stuff. The bible clearly states that when mosses come to pharaoh and ask for the isrealites to be released pharaoh plans to say yes and god then hardens his heart and make him say no. So what we have is god forcing someone to do something and then punish him (and everyone around him, no surgical strike god is more a carpet bombing kind of guy) for doing exactly what god made him do. It look like god was bent on hitting Egypt to show off his power and he wasn’t going to let them weasel their way out by obeying his ultimatum. I guess that’s why George Bush likes god so much they follow the same mentality, we have decided to invade somewhere and by jingo we are going to invade we’ll figure out the reason for the invasion later on.
A true beacon of morality we should all follow.
I think god invented the phrase “Do as I say, not as I do”. Christians love to discount most of the Old Testament saying Jesus is the “new deal”. Give me a break. The god of the Old Testament is the same in the New Testament.
If god is perfect, why did he need to use Jesus for the “new deal”?
God tried killing humans and accepting animal sacrifices to atone for sin. That didn’t satisfy him, so he had his own son tortured as a sacrifice to himself. Today Christians are told to believe this Jewish man from 2,000 years ago was god in the flesh. If not, we’ll be thrown into a fire pit for eternity.
Ahh the love of god. If you’ve suffered major blunt head trauma that might actually make sense.
What I see if funny here… if you don’t believe in God, and the Bible was written by man… then really…. MAN KILLED ALL THOSE PEOPLE not God. So then I should be antiman???? If there is no God… then why make “nothing” look bad? Do we make fun of Santa Claws for not being real… and now we can’t trust our parents and end up rebelling and getting into drugs ect cause life sucks so bad since there is no real Santa claws? We should write something up about all the “make believe characters. Right? I mean really… what are we trying to do here??? Do you have nothing better to do then sit around and HATE. Hate “God=no one” that much. Hahaha. I totally see the humor. Looser.
Um, mrs.mic, have you actually READ your Bible? (I mean, given your atrocious writing, I could easily assume you haven’t because you can’t, but why should I do that?) If you’ve actually read the damned thing, you’d see that God (esp. the God of the Hebrew Bible) loves ordering or causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people–if not millions. Those who believe in this supposed “God” are taking their marching orders from “Him”–and, on top of that, claiming he’s “good.” But your own text shows that he’s anything BUT good.
Oh, and it’s “loser” not “looser.” Geez, get a damned dictionary and a fifth grade education before being loosed upon a computer with Internet access.
Ironic… is it really God that kills all these “children” and “people” or is it people themselves who are free to make their own choices… People were driven to their own destruction.. people are given freedom to decide on their actions and multiple paths to choose from.. so how can God be blamed.. when all He does is step in when things get out of hand.. This world is a much bigger picture.. its so hard to understand why things happen but is it necessary to blame God?
@Emily J
Nothing bugs me more than closed-minded, ignorant people.
I agree. Welcome, you’ll meet many open-minded, educated people here.
Asking questions does not make you a closed minded person. King David did it throughout the Psalms. What makes a closed-minded person is when they don’t ask questions and ignorantly believe whatever they’re told.
@F.H.:
“its so hard to understand why things happen but is it necessary to blame God?”
Yes.
Please note 2 things:
1. God is holy. Please don’t claim to be an “ex-Christian” because if you never understood that fact, you were probably never saved in the first place. Now, that being said, all of the people whom you cited were not living according to the Old Covenant laws, which made them evil. God cannot tolerate sin in His Holy Presence and seeing that He made this world, He can only tolerate the unrepentant evil of it’s people so far.
2. You haven’t cited any massacres after the Lord Jesus came in the New Testament. The reason being for that is the fact that we are living in an age of grace. God is still holy. But now, no matter who you are, you may accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and on the day of judgment Our Holy Father will see you as clean because Jesus was the only satisfactory sacrifice for our sins.
The point is this: Contrary to popular belief, everything doesn’t just stop when you die. If you think that God’s wrath was terrible in the Old Testament, then just imagine what’s coming to you if you’re not saved in Jesus. God’s not willing that any should perish. He also didn’t create Hell for us humans, but, “hell hath expanded her borders”. You may want to consider the severity of the situation. And it won’t go away if you just close your eyes and tell yourself that God doesn’t exist. This isn’t a game and you are guaranteed to meet your Creator one day.
C.S. Lewis wrote, ‘Two things will happen in this life: either You will look at God and say, “Thy will be done,” or God will look at you and say, “Thy will be done.”
Boy this post is really bringing the fundies out.
@Dana: Oh, so God’s HOLY? Someone should have told me that earlier. Now it makes so much more sense that he would kill all those people! I’m sure he was doing them a kindness. God is just so AMAZING. What a blessing for God to kill them! PRAIZE JEEEEZUS!
How do you know this? And if he can’t tolerate sin, why did he let the Israelites live, who God repeatedly said was sinful? You are obviously wrong, because if God exists, he tolerates sin in “His Holy Presence” every single day! But I bet you won’t admit to being wrong. Your type never does.
Evidence please? How do you know this?
Please provide evidence that (1) hell exists and (2) that God didn’t create it for humans. Or is it… *gasp*… just your opinion?
Evidence please. How is this guaranteed? You keep saying things but giving no evidence for your “guaranteed” assertions. We’re happy to believe in your opinions if there is evidence for it.
In short, your comment makes many baseless assertions presented as fact. If you want us to believe you, back it up.
I wonder how many people Hitler or Stalin actually killed. My guess would be less than 10 for each of them, but maybe they personally killed more people then that. Either way, those millions of people that died were most likely killed by Christians and other theists. Just because Hitler might’ve been an atheist doesn’t mean the people in his country were.
Christians killed the Jews! That’s right, Hitler did not kill the Jews, Christians did. Did Stalin kill millions of people? No, CHRISTIANS DID.
Supposedly God has the high score in kills (even though it was all from hacks), but for sure Christians have killed more people then anyone else.
Also, if I was a true Christian and was ordered to kill Jews or anyone against my will, I would refuse and accept death instead, hoping that my god would reward doing the right thing.
@Roger regarding the awful pink. I have my browser window open narrowly enough that I only see a sliver of pink, and that helps cut way back on the seizures. ;-)
@Monolith.
How ludicrous is that article! Even if I accept the “bad things happen because of our free will” viewpoint, if the God of the Bible – our ‘father’ – wanted us to be good he set an appalling parental example for us, according to his own book.
What gets me is not just that he killed all those millions of people, but that he gloried in it and so did his people, like killing and torture are things to be proud of. And what about all those women, children and sucklings? What did they ever do to God?
Take the “accidentally looking into the ark of the covenant” incident in 1 Samuel. Punish those few people if you must, but why kill 50,000? Is that just? I thought he was supposed to be a just God. My bad.
And seeing as we’re all supposed to be descended from his creation Adam, what’s he got against non-Israelite tribes? It’s like if I arbitrarily tortured my brown-haired children because my blonde-haired children were my favourites.
I used to believe this shit. Now I’m seriously hoping there is not one word of historical truth in the accounts contained within it. Scale this DOWN a bit, if we caught some guy with this book and he was saying he’d done all this killing and there were all these burnt and dead bodies lying around, we’d lock him up for being a mass murderer and a serial killer.
Or, possibly, no-one killed them. I mean, there was no flood, the siege of Jericho probably never happened… It was all just a fantasy by some people who wanted a god who’d kill all their enemies for them…
To BcBera: You say Atheists have killed more people than your God? Whether that statement is true or false, Atheists are still people created by God, regardless of their beliefs. So you can probably just add any death that’s ever happened to God’s list, considering everyone who’s ever lived and will live will have been created by God.
kthxbai
Well, isn’t Dana just full of woo? Over on Pharyngula, someone coined the term “woonado” (woo+tornado=woonado, or a post that is so full of conspiracy theory, fundie crackpottery, and general fucktardness as to be a woonado.)
You mean like those little babies who made the choice to be the first-born in a Egyptian family, after the Pharaoh made the choice to accede to Moses’ demands, but God “hardened his heart”?
Yeah, that’s a decision well worth killing them for, isn’t it?
But I still don’t believe in God.
Every killing has been choice of the person(s) who committed it.
And seriously, Religion causes more problems and hatred than anything else on this Earth.
Hmm.. without religion, the 9/11 attacks wouldn’t happen, we wouldn’t be in this shitty situation in the Middle-East, and imagine all the spared lives that could have been throughout history.
Don’t forget the crusades.
@professoryackle God should have been more specific in the 10 commandments, telling us that while it was a sin for us to break them, it was ok for him.
The correlation between Hitler and God being a single being is misleading. Its a question of authority. For example if one of your children did something wrong and need discipling and I came over to do it, it wouldn’t go over very well. That doesn’t mean that it would be improper for you as the parent to adminster the correction though. Captial punishment is the same thing, it gives the authority to the state to mete out judgement rather than the family that lost a member. There were also examples of God witholding judgement where we know historically it would have been justified, for example Niniveh. God’s not as capricious as the posts would assume.
@BcBerra
If you’re going to be a butthead, at least use a little common sense. Atheist leaders and murdering citizens aren’t cause and effect relations. The most you could try to argue is that murder isn’t inconsistent within a materialistic worldview, though most would contest that here. If your right though, and atheism has this cause and effect why would you try to make this crowd mad, lol.
Dana-
So, according to you (and to the bible), killing babies is the act of a just and holy god. Babies are evil, too?
What’s your problem with abortion, then?
So, Barry, God has authority to kill babies. And he’s still good?
Does authority give a parent the right to physically abuse their child as a method of correction? Does authority give the state the right to murder a criminal? This is obviously debatable, even among Christians. Authority is a human construct and is open to human bias and opinion just like most everything else. Authority is the tool du jour religious people are using to justify and advance their own cultural preferences.
Please don’t claim to be an “ex-Christian” because if you never understood that fact, you were probably never saved in the first place.
*Tweeeeeeet!!!*
Illegal use of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Fifteen yard penalty from the spot of the foul, plus loss of down.
Just once I’d like to see a debate about religion without Godwin’s Law being effected at all.
I am afraid however that this is an utterly unrealistic hope.
It was all just a fantasy by some people who wanted a god who’d kill all their enemies for them…
That’s about the most sensible comment in this thread (so far).
Dana: God’s not willing that any should perish.
If god were omnipotent, then nobody has to perish if he doesn’t want to.
As an aside, have there not been some gnostic sects around who believed that the world was created by an evil god? I’m no expert in this and have no desire to become one. But maybe they got a point…
*Tweeeeeeet!!!*
Illegal use of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
But then, maybe, Stalin was also no True Scotsman?
@dr. R:
“As an aside, have there not been some gnostic sects around who believed that the world was created by an evil god? I’m no expert in this and have no desire to become one. But maybe they got a point…”
Yep, the gnostic Christians did believe that the god of the Hebrew Bible was an evil god, not at all like the god of Christianity. Yahweh (evil god) did create the world, but was evidenced to be quite evil and capricious.
Of course, the rest of Christendom could not countenance such an argument, and declared the gnostics heretics.
God is holy. Please don’t claim to be an “ex-Christian” because if you never understood that fact, you were probably never saved in the first place.God is holy.
Eyeroll. When will fundies understand this argument is a) lame and circular; b) old and tired? Also, who the hell are you to presume to judge whether anyone else bar yourself is/was saved or not?
Contrary to popular belief, everything doesn’t just stop when you die. If you think that God’s wrath was terrible in the Old Testament, then just imagine what’s coming to you if you’re not saved in Jesus.
Aha. Salvation via the terrorism route. Sounds a bit too smug and gloaty to me. You’re not convincing me – are you even convincing yourself, I wonder?
Just once I’d like to see a debate about religion without Godwin’s Law being effected at all.
If there is a Godwin, surely invoking Him should have brought about the end of the thread by now ;-)
I read this whole forum because I was intrigued by what the original article had to say. I have never really heard it stated that way but it truly would be sad if there was nothing after this.
All those lives lost for nothing because a “vengeful” god hates us. I am Christan and from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (many would call us mormons) and I know by saying that I am going to just a ridiculed for my beliefs as some of those fundamentalists earlier in the forum for what they said.
My point in posting and not just moving on was to let my own opinion out. I know it is easy to quote the “bloody” parts of the bible and ignore some of the great teachings. But atheists out there, is it so bad to try to give people hope and a reason to be a better person? I will not try to convince you that you are wrong but don’t destroy the people that believe it already.
What would happen in our society without that base of hope? I think anarchy would rule and we would be constantly fighting for our lives. People in general are panicky bastards that if they thought there was no consequence would would rape, murder, and plunder…IF they believed there was no reward or consequence afterward. Now, religion over the years has persecuted killed and mobbed so many (including my own ancestors) so I know I can’t convince you that religion is good. Can you see the need for it though? to help people have faith and give them hope?
My own beliefs in God and what he has done differ slightly from what more fundamental Christians would say but still I believe it all the same. Why couldn’t God use evolution to create the world in seven days (maybe days are more like seven periods). Why couldn’t God bring people to another place that we can’t see to help them and teach them different things (just because we can’t see them to us they are dead). Why can’t God require faith before he PROVES himself? We teach children to go to school so they can be productive members of society is there any proof to give to a child that they WILL be successful if they go to school? Sure you can give statistics but what if an accident happens and they are blinded or can’t walk? their dreams are shattered and all that school could be for nothing. I KNOW people are going to rip apart my examples because they are not perfect just like me and my words aren’t perfect but I hope you can get something from the overall message.
And yes, I will try to post again but please…I don’t wish to argue or get in a heated debate. Lets just discuss like it was said we should earlier in the thread.
Sampsomonium-
We don’t need religion to keep people in order. We have laws for that! Check out the constitution. You might learn something.
There’s nothing wrong with hope, but many of us were promised hope by our respective churches just to learn that this was false hope. They didn’t want to save us, they wanted to control us– to tell us to not question, and (if we are female) to sit down and shut up.
@ Sampsomonium
I think anarchy would rule and we would be constantly fighting for our lives. People in general are panicky bastards that if they thought there was no consequence would would rape, murder, and plunder…IF they believed there was no reward or consequence afterward. Now, religion over the years has persecuted killed and mobbed so many (including my own ancestors) so I know I can’t convince you that religion is good. Can you see the need for it though? to help people have faith and give them hope?
Yes. I can see why men create a rule of law and often attribute that law to God. It is, as you imply here, a way of manipulation – which can be used to both selfless and selfish ends.
But law and order don’t give men hope…
Some people would cheerfully rape and murder if they thought they could get away with it, yes. We call these people “psychopaths”. The vast majority of atheists don’t do these things; partially because we have a legal system that offers punishments far more obvious than those offered by any hypothetical deity, and partially because they have something we like to call “emotions”: empathy, common decency, that kind of thing.
Let’s also point out that the thread of modern Christianity that believes that once you’ve said the Magic Jesus Prayer that makes you saved, you can never, ever go to hell no matter what you do after that. Do these people tend to go around raping and murdering because they’re free of all consequence, or to they behave like (mostly) decent human beings?
If you’re going to argue from final consequences, at least try and come up with something not utterly contradicted by the evidence at hand.
> Re: Why can’t God do X?
Well, if we assume that God is omnipotent, then obviously he can. Equally, he can strike people down with thunderbolts, his footfalls could be so heavy that he can’t cross the Bifrost Bridge without shaking it down, and he could cook his goat in a stew and have it come back to life the next morning. All of these things are clearly possible for Thor, so we should all believe in and worship him, right?
Or is there a reason why you feel your god is more plausible than Thor? Is it possible that merely being able to conceive of a god is insufficient to conjure him into being?
Hope for what?
That’s why they added the God part. Heaven and hell. Reward and punishment. Love and fear in one package.
Dana said:
2. You haven’t cited any massacres after the Lord Jesus came in the New Testament.
Well there’s Revelation where Jesus flies down from heaven on a white horse waving a sword. Blood will flow as high as a horse’s bridle. And, God will pour out His wrath and billions will die (no exclusions for children, babies or animals). Oh, and that little thing of eternal torture. Sure, the New testament is just so much better :0.
“hope and a reason to be a better person”
One does not need a god for this. Why can’t we help one another and improve human kind because we want to and not under a threat of eternal torture?
“My own beliefs in God and what he has done differ slightly from what more fundamental Christians would say but still I believe it all the same.”
Maybe you can help me understand how someone claiming to find golden tablets, reading them with magic glasses, and having dozens and dozens of wives is the authority on truth or a prophet from god? Not to mention all the historical innacuracies associated with your ‘scriptures’ that completely invalidate its assertions.
God is the same today and forever. The wages of sin is death. In the old testament, that is what happened, if you sinned against God, commit evils like worshipping idols, you had to die. That, my friend is justice. We all sinned, so one day, we will all die. I don’t think you can argue with that.
So because people disobeyed God, they had to die. simple as. Today, Jesus came and took all their (our) sins so we don’t have to die. simple as.
whether you believe in that or not is your opinion. I’m not saying atheists are any lesser in person that Christians, I am just telling you what the Bible says. So please don’t come back an attack my views.
dingdong, you’re, well, a ding dong. We certainly can argue with what you have asserted. Reread all of posts above yours.
@dingdong:
You must live a sheltered intellectual life if you don’t think people can argue with that!
also please take into consideration the society changes underwent throughout history, slave trade was totally acceptable and no unlawful. But that has all changed now, would you condemn your ancestors for slave trading and slave labour? Even though in their eyes they did nothing wrong.
Somethings in the Bible, yes, we see it as unreasonable, but that is due to change in society and what people accepted as morally right.
And to those who attack the Bible and quoting it, don’t do it unless you’ve read the whole thing and put it into context instead of just slightly bending it
“We all sinned, so one day, we will all die. I don’t think you can argue with that.”
Actually I can. I’m not dying because of sin…I’m dying because of biology, just as you are. Sin is your made up creation.
@ Dana
Haha you have to be kidding! Let’s assume I am not an atheist for a moment. Let me give you the viewoint a hindu (the religion that I was taught, like close to a billion other Indians).
I don’t accept Jesus as my saviour. He has nothing to do with me, my land, and my people. In fact, I don;t even believe that God created us 10,000 years back. In fact, our god Bhrama created the universe a million years back and the earth is a flat land that rests on a giant turtle. We have thousands of Gods who live in the heaven and control every aspect of our lives here. When we die, we don’t go to heaven or hell;we just reincarnate into different beings in our next lives.
And oh, I have as much proof and backing as you do about christianity and your beliefs. Also, our gods don’t kill people like your god does. our gods tell us that evolution is possible. they are okay with sex and sexuality. contraceptives? its okay in hinduism. in fact, we have a god for sex. touche!
I could go on.
Anyways, my blog on atheism (from a hindu perspective) and economics at http://bigotblog.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/the-logic-and-statistics-of-prayer/
(this one is a post on how prayer works)
I just “dingdong” as joke and I think it paid off
@Sampsomonium
But atheists out there, is it so bad to try to give people hope and a reason to be a better person? I will not try to convince you that you are wrong but don’t destroy the people that believe it already.
Hi Sam… I agree with you in part. As an ex-Christian, I think that giving people hope by selling them a lie (or at best, a myth) is giving them false hope. Sure, encouragement in a general sense, positive thinking, support, friendship etc, all of these things can give people hope and inspiration and help them through difficult times, but none of these need religion or a faith in any god. All of these can help someone be a better person; the bible does not, imho, especially bearing in mind the examples given in the above post re torture, killings etc..
I don’t think I’m destroying people who believe in the bible. I never disagree with Christians in real life over their faith unless they first start a discussion, or on a blog like this. If in the ensuing debate said Christians lose their faith, it couldn’t have been that strong in the first place – or maybe they just come to understand reason.
People in general are panicky bastards that if they thought there was no consequence would would rape, murder, and plunder…IF they believed there was no reward or consequence afterward.
Sorry, but I think that’s nonsense. I have never met a murderer in my life. Sure, one hears of murders in the newspapers but the reason it’s news is because it’s so infrequent. Yes, there are wars, and that’s a whole other issue, but the ordinary human beings like you and me are not responsible for the wars. Since I left Christianity and became an atheist I have not become a thief, mugger, murderer, adulterer etc… I’m pretty much the same person I was before, only better informed.
Why couldn’t God use evolution to create the world in seven days (maybe days are more like seven periods).
Well, maybe he could, if he existed at all. That’s certainly a more rational stance than the Creationists’ one which holds that evolution is an evil lie and the earth is 6000 years old, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
and I cba reading all the posts because afterall, this is a believe, and besides, you are all atheists, you have met loads of other Christians like me. So what I say here is just going to be picked on and all my points will be slaughtered (how ironic)
Excuse the excessive typos, esp:
*……viewpoint of a hindu……
and please attack the POINT and not the person.
another example:
a single man hit another rich man in a car accident and because the rich man has an expensive lawyer he gets the sues the man for ALL he is worth and gets him thrown in jail for attempted man slaughter.
Then the single man out of desperation killed the rich man because he has nothing left to live for and would like to suffer for something he actually did.
I know this is hypothetical but according to your “laws and order” this could happen. Today’s justice system is as corrupt as you quote the old testament being. So I am sorry if I don’t whole agree with you saying that is why we have “laws”
footnote, lets wait til judgement day, or to atheist, you might never find out, since you’d just rot in the ground, as your theory suggests.
Yes, I would. I’d also condemn a psychopath who couldn’t see any moral problem with murdering people. You can’t really argue that moral relativism gives you the right to do whatever you think is OK like that.
But the real question is: Did the person who wrote the Bible think that slavery was wrong? Did they try and encourage others to free their slaves, or simply set out to legislate how badly they could be beaten, and what prices should be paid? Were they right or wrong in that belief?
@samsom
I have no idea what all that meant. Are you saying that a hypothetical situation *that you made up* proves some kind of point?
dingdong,
How is god the same “today and forever” if he had a son who was also himself followed by dying to appease himself?
That’s not a subtle attempt at Pascal’s Wager, is it? Because if it is, you’re going to be really surprised when you die and it turns out the Muslims were right all along! Better convert now before you end up in Muslim Hell!
also please take into consideration the society changes underwent throughout history, slave trade was totally acceptable and no unlawful. But that has all changed now, would you condemn your ancestors for slave trading and slave labour? Even though in their eyes they did nothing wrong?
Yes, I would. I’d also condemn a psychopath who couldn’t see any moral problem with murdering people. You can’t really argue that moral relativism gives you the right to do whatever you think is OK like that.
But the real question is: Did the person who wrote the Bible think that slavery was wrong? Did they try and encourage others to free their slaves, or simply set out to legislate how badly they could be beaten, and what prices should be paid? Were they right or wrong in that belief?
I wasn’t defending about murdering people is right, so please don’t insult me. But if the idea of justice is to hold, then what should happen to murderers? If they are not punished for their sins?
Really ding dong?
“So please don’t come back an attack my views.”
“and please attack the POINT and not the person.”
Which is it?
@dingdong
perhaps you could use some quotes so that I know who said what in your replies.
“But if the idea of justice is to hold, then what should happen to murderers? If they are not punished for their sins?”
So are you claiming that god is just a catch-all in case the legal system missed a conviction?
footnote, lets wait til judgement day, or to atheist, you might never find out, since you’d just rot in the ground, as your theory suggests.
That was just to see how good people at this website is at breaking down and see all the flaws in arguments rather that thinking about the problem itself.
It turned out that people are good at nit-picking (sp) and being close minded. They are atheists so God must not exists.
I’m a Christian, and I always questions whether God exists or not, I’m not a Christian that is stubborn that thinks God MUST exist because I can never know that God exist. All I’m saying is people should be more open minded about the idea of a divine being.
@ Sampsomonium
Here’s a hypothetical:
A man lives a good life, is good to his wife, children, relatives and everyone he meets. He donates to charity and helps out at the soup kitchen. He’s never committed a crime or hurt another person. He doesn’t believe in god though. He gets to rots in hell for all of eternity. On the other hand, a wife beating, women hating pedophile who happened to be a Christian goes to heaven after being forgiven his sins.
Draw your own conclusions.
JC
Thank you for your concern. I have said before that you seem like a nice and well intentioned person. I need more from Christianity if I’m going to believe it. I’m quite risk averse and I hate to gamble, so until I know that Christianity is above all the other religions on Earth and until I know that religion is preferable to science, then I’ll just use my reason to hedge my bets and hope that if there is a good God that he/she/it’ll understand why I took the stance I did.
I do the best I can. When I know better, I do better (Maya Angelou).
No, you were defending slave traders. I’m sorry that use of a different example offended you, you though. I didn’t mean to suggest that you though murder was a good thing.
Most Christians tell me that the punishment for stealing a cookie at age 5 is identical to murdering a busful of nuns: Eternal torture if you don’t worship Jesus, or no punishment if you do. Is that your idea of “justice”, or do you believe that people are punished according to the severity of their sins, regardless of whether or not they follow the right religion?
I believe that murderers and other criminals should be punished by the state, concordant with a democratically decided, transparent process. That is the bedrock of justice, and it doesn’t depend on hoping that your beliefs about God are true, and everyone else’s are false…
Really ding dong?
“So please don’t come back an attack my views.”
“and please attack the POINT and not the person.”
Which is it?
STOP NIT_PICKING(sp)
don’t attack me personally, but attack the point.
(i can’t type fast and proof read everything as I’m typing, as you’d understand)
I’m an atheist. I believe that no god exists. That goes for Odin, Hermes and Jehovah, as well as thousands of others.
But that’s not to say that no god can exist. Just give me a good reason to think that you’re right, and I’ll change my mind. So will most people here. Just because “you’ll find out after you’re dead” is not a good reason doesn’t mean that all arguments are rejected out of hand.
What about you? How open minded are you? Can you conceive of an argument or piece of evidence that would cause you to doubt the existence of god?
@ dingdong
Way to “(sp)” the only thing in your message that didn’t need it. :)
In all seriousness, seeing the flaws in arguments…well, that’s kind of what arguing is all about, no? If you engage in a debate, you offer an argument. Your opponent points out the flaws in that argument. That’s why it’s debate, not just blurting out random non-facts.
@ Sam
I know this is hypothetical but according to your “laws and order” this could happen. Today’s justice system is as corrupt as you quote the old testament being.
Yes something like your example could certainly happen. I know of no one who says our laws are perfect or result in a perfect society. They are, however, open to improvement. Just like all of our ideas are open to improvement. So where we once accepted slavery in thought and in law, now we don’t.
Pascal’s Wager – it is not exactly like that, it is not we can only “gain” if we believe in God so we should should believe in God. Christians have to undergo tests, temptations, condemnation, prosecution, bombardments from atheists etc. So I think it is even harder to believe in God than not to. So no, not exactly like the Pascal’s Wager.
So what you are saying is the only reason people don’t rape, murder and plunder is because of a fear of divine retribution?
That doesn’t sound very moral to me.
Also, how do you explain the fact that atheists are generally more moral than xtians? (there are studies showing this, link )
We’re doing fine without having to believe in a magic sky-fairy, thank you very much. Why bring god(s) into it?
Dingdong: So what I say here is just going to be picked on and all my points will be slaughtered (how ironic)
Skepticism and the scientific method are so constructed to “slaughter” or prove null bad ideas. It’s that fundamental process that gives us things like medical technology, etc.
I don’t want to kill you. I do want to expose harmful ideas. It’s good for both of us. I enjoy your attempts to point out bad ideas from you perspective.
Perhaps you should think about why you invoke the parallel between our arguments and slaughter.
I get where you’re going with this. And the resulting comments are interesting, humorous, and disturbing, accordingly.
It seems to me, though, that the confusion comes in accepting the Bible as:
1. literal
2. factual
3. knowing the actual intention of God
And it also means leaving out the idea that God could be something else. Perhaps those deaths occurred at the hands of human beings who were incorrectly interpreting God? This has certainly happened (and continues to happen to this day). The flood story is not about the facts of the events, but is instead an attempt at understanding why bad things happen. I don’t think you can blame God for people dying in a flood.
But, more interesting to me, is the new scientific research that is pointing to organized structures and networks that underlay and seem to comprise everything in the universe. Such specific organization seems to point to laws that exist on levels we hadn’t previously realized existed. Now, I’m not specific saying that God exists and this is the definition and proof of God… but I am suggesting that perhaps we don’t know everything and shouldn’t so quickly rule out the existence of a “higher power” (or whatever) just because we don’t have the vocabulary and current knowledge to completely understand it.
I’m just saying that there is more complexity than we realize and simple “black and white” answers on both sides of the discussion seem to be counter-productive in our universal search for knowledge. It seems that both sides are asking the questions based on the answers they want to believe in–without regard for possibilities that exist beyond even our limited imaginations.
i didn’t mean finding flaws in the argument, if I mis-typed it (or my hand isn’t keeping with my brain”, it is finding flaws in stuff like this
Really ding dong?
“So please don’t come back an attack my views.”
“and please attack the POINT and not the person.”
Which is it?
that I find annoying. I like debating.
@ dingdong
No, you don’t. Debating = pointing out flaws in each others’ arguments. When you make two contradictory statements, here being “don’t attack my views” and “do attack my views,” debate entails pointing that contradiction out.
Stephen:
“It seems to me, though, that the confusion comes in accepting the Bible as:
1. literal
2. factual
3. knowing the actual intention of God”
So if the bible isn’t any of these things…what is it? I suppose we are just free to make it out to be whatever we want it to be. How can you decide what you believe in when you can’t even believe your holy scriptures?
Dingdong, you can’t possibly be serious. You don’t want to think, you want to proselytize. I attended church for many years and I’ve already heard what you have to say. I reject it because it doesn’t follow logic. And no, I’m not being nit picky. I’m pointing out your logical inconsistencies.
“How can you decide what you believe in when you can’t even believe your holy scriptures?”
As modern Christianity has shown, you believe in whatever you want and then find bible quotes that support your prejudices.
@dingdong
But that has all changed now, would you condemn your ancestors for slave trading and slave labour? Even though in their eyes they did nothing wrong.
Yes, I would. Slavery was wrong then too. Do you know anything about the history of slavery and the real issues involved?
And to those who attack the Bible and quoting it, don’t do it unless you’ve read the whole thing and put it into context instead of just slightly bending it
I have read the whole thing thanks, and so have many others on here. No bending is required; the atrocities are all there in black and white. Have YOU read the entire Bible cover to cover?
@sampsomonium
a single man hit another rich man in a car accident and because the rich man has an expensive lawyer he gets the sues the man for ALL he is worth and gets him thrown in jail for attempted man slaughter.
Then the single man out of desperation killed the rich man because he has nothing left to live for and would like to suffer for something he actually did.
I know this is hypothetical but according to your “laws and order” this could happen. Today’s justice system is as corrupt as you quote the old testament being. So I am sorry if I don’t whole agree with you saying that is why we have “laws”
Ah, a parable. Though it sounds like you may have some bitterness there over perceived injustices, maybe someone wealthy did you down? Is “single man” your Mary-Sue? Yet, the way you have told this, it’s a story and therefore not true. In which case, why should we pay it any attention?
Hey – if the single man is in jail, how did he manage to kill the rich man? Did he throttle him through the bars when RM came to gloat at visiting time?
No, today’s justice system is NOT as corrupt as the stories given in the OT. Sure, there are occasional injustices. But the laws today do not deal out plagues, thunderbolts, fire and death by edge of sword to millions because they looked at the wrong thing or lived in the wrong place. Not by a long way.
@proto:
I think you have hit the nail on the head.
@ Stephen,
I have no argument with your point. Most atheists here will say “I don’t know” wrt the existence of a higher power. Arguments are usually about the specifics of a particular God that someone asserts as the one true God.
to Stephen
I agree totally with your point of view.
i came up with my own philosophical theory some time ago, it might not be original, but it is my own. (if you get me)
There are two ways to think about God: the rational, and the irrational.
In the irrational sense, God may exist and God may not exist.
In the rational sense, we cannot say with certainty that God does not exist unless we know everything there is to know. So we cannot disprove God with certainty unless there is an omnipotent being. Only God (as we know it) is omnipotent. So in order for us to disprove God, God must exist.
So what I’ve just (hopefully) proved is that NO ONE CAN PROVE GOD DOESN’T EXIST. So I think, atheists, it wouldn’t harm if you keep an open mind.
and thank you stephen for saying what I can’t express in words, since my vocab and my mind is limited.
@ Dingdong,
Nobody can prove that Thor, Odin, Zeus, Hephaestus and all the other gods don’t exist – neither can they prove that the invisible pink unicorn and flying spaghetti monster don’t exist.
This doesn’t really help the case for the existence of the Christian god.
” NO ONE CAN PROVE GOD DOESN’T EXIST”
ok…thanks for yelling. So you are keeping an open mind to all of the other religion’s gods as well. How about Thor, Krishna, Romulus? Are you keeping an open mind to them as well? If not…why not? It follows your logic.
Proto…I guess we were on the same wavelength with that one…lol
@Daniel…
Let’s see….murder, abortion, wife beater’s, is it ratings season or something in the atheist blog world? All my christian friends are full of love, mercy, kindness, compassion…what give’s? I see none of this other you seem to imply is standard fare in the christian world.
Please don’t turn into the Jerry Springer of Atheistic blogs D…I like you and your unbelieving friends too much.
PS…the phone’s ringing, its the Enquirer calling, they wanna do a piece on SENSATIONALISM…ha
Keep it up and next year this time you’ll be in the top 5!
I’m just pickin’ on ya D…
<blockquote?Personal Failure
I like it when christians defend this with (a) god is just, or (b) that’s the Old Testament, god’s totally different now.
I agree.
Comparing the OT God to the NT God isn’t comparing apples to manatees. It’s comparing GOD to… GOD.
Did he change, or didn’t he? If he did, how do you, his personal speaker, know that he or she hasn’t changed his or her mind again? (You know, deciding that Christians have become too evil, or something.)
Illiteracy is the least compelling way to get me to listen to Christians. And though there have been some very thoughtful, insightful ones (I like C.S. Lewis’ scathing insights into human self-rationalization, without believing his Christian premises) – for whatever reasons, masses of Christians are grossly illiterate.
(At least if I misspell something, it’s only because I’m a lousy typist, heh.)
Sure, sometimes bright people didn’t learn to read, but there has to be some correlation of illiteracy to low intelligence level.
@professoryackle
no I haven’t read the Bible fully. So I do not have all the factual knowledge that you guys have, for example, i do not know of all these deaths in the Bible. But I know that God is not a God based on statistics, it is based on love. That love, as we know it TODAY, came from Jesus, who came after the Old Testament, and all the deaths enlisted here came in the Old Testament. Not saying God doesn’t love back then, but He set up rules for people to follow, so humanity can love each other, he set these rules for the good of the people, and if they disobeyed, then the only way back then is through death. You don’t listen to your parents, you get beaten.
And as to Revelations, (tho I haven’t read a BIT of it, so apologies if I make a fool out of myself) how many times have you heard repent repent, if you don’t repent and continue to sin, when Jesus comes and do what He has to do, don’t say you haven’t been warned. It is like the old priest joke – flooding, priest waits for God to save Him. A helicopter came and the priest didnt get on, because he believed God will save him….etc etc. that joke. Its pretty much the same. God intends for a sinless and painless world and this world we are in today is just a test and character building for a better person. So you know, God has warned us to repent, and he told us CLEARLY if you don’t repent, you are going to Hell, then if you chose to not repent, then how can it be that it is God’s fault? He told you so many times already what more can you want?
,And now you are going to attack my point saying “how on Earth does killing people shows his love?” I will read more of the Bible and I will answer that, in a few years time.
to Daniel – the author of this post.
We all sinned, so one day, we will all die. I don’t think you can argue with that.
That was what I said you can’t argue about.
dindong:
“I will read more of the Bible”
Excellent! It is one of the best de-conversion tools out there!
“We all sinned, so one day, we will all die. I don’t think you can argue with that.
That was what I said you can’t argue about.”
Um…actually I did respond to this…so I guess I will do it again:
I’m not dying because of sin…I’m dying because of biology, just as you are. Sin is your made up creation.
Sure, sometimes bright people didn’t learn to read, but there has to be some correlation of illiteracy to low intelligence level.
I can’t come to terms with that, it is mostly true, but I’m kinda illiterate in English, but that doesn’t make me stupid.
I agree with cello.
I’m not even atheist, and I have contempt for the blathering, rambling, self-contradictory, hate-filled, circular-reasoning, name-calling, ASSumption-filled, illiterate ramblings of most Christians here and elsewhere.
They are failing to convince me! They do, however, convince me of the low intelligence of many Christians, and do repulse me away.
How they can hope to persuade a full-on atheist is beyond belief.
(Maybe even more beyond belief than supreme being, heh.)
@guiltyhere
Dying in my sense is not the physical sense.
If we’re not dying in the physical sense, we’re not dying.
dindong:
Well it might be helpful to explain what you do mean. And I am still waiting for your response to:
” NO ONE CAN PROVE GOD DOESN’T EXIST”
ok…thanks for yelling. So you are keeping an open mind to all of the other religion’s gods as well. How about Thor, Krishna, Romulus? Are you keeping an open mind to them as well? If not…why not? It follows your logic.
@ Proto
Nicely said.
we are not trying to persuade ANYONE. If someone said your parents are cowards, of course you will defend them, since you love them (i hope) I am not trying persuade atheists that God exist, because I’d certainly end in defeat in the debate. But instead I am putting my views across. Whether they see this as amusement, I don’t care.
No, it couldn’t happen, because there’s no such thing as “attempted manslaughter”. Manslaughter is the accidental killing of a person through actions that a reasonable person wouldn’t have expected to cause a death. You can’t attempt to accidentally kill someone.
Manslaughter or attempted murder. Choose one, and re-cast your parable accordingly.
Everyone seems perfectly capable of arguing with the “so” in that sentence. Whether or not we’re sinners depends on how you define a “sin”, but we can let that one slide. Everyone will die. But the two are not in a causal relationship; even non-sinners die.
John C:
“Let’s see….murder, abortion, wife beater’s, is it ratings season or something in the atheist blog world? All my christian friends are full of love, mercy, kindness, compassion…what give’s? I see none of this other you seem to imply is standard fare in the christian world.”
How does this have anything to do with what the Bible exposes about the supposed nature of God? I understand that your post is a light chide but it misses the mark completely. Do you really think Daniel is being sensationalistic by bringing up the fact that God alledgedly kills dozens of children for making fun of His prophet’s baldness?
If one believes that the God of the Bible is real then he or she has to process the monstrosities that He commits. Please explain it.
Yes I AM keeping an open mind to other religions, I go to interfaith forums to understand other religions. But at the moment, and I’d believe until I die, that I’d believe THIS CHRISTIAN GOD, with all my heart. Because I have seen what it can do with people and what it has done in me.
But if you tell me that a toilet-God existed, I’d probably look it up, and then decide whether I should believe in it.
*But if you tell me that a toilet-God existed, I’d probably look it up, and then decide whether I should believe in it or not.
@dingdong
I just wet myself when a religious person counsels atheists on
“Keeping an open mind”
If conclusive evidence came about for the existence of ANY of the 1000s of prayed to Gods then Sceptics by nature would evaluate the evidence and if it was in favour of the existence of a God would accept that he exists.
Religious people however are completely closed minded to whatever new evidence that comes to light that disproves claims from whichever faith they are from. No matter what happens the religious just bend it into their world view and go
“God Dunnit”
The classic case in point being creation being destroyed by evolution, and apart from the cling on to creation crazies, religion evolves itself and millions now claim God ‘Guided’ it!
Closed mind delusion.
The religious are by nature the most CLOSED MINDED PEOPLE on this topic and the more you believe its true and have faith, THE MORE CLOSED MINDED YOU ARE.
Dingdongs who don’t read their bible are ridiculous.
I’ve read more of it than he has, and I’m not the one who believes it. Truly amazing!
Shouting
is even more deserving of ridicule.
Dingdong’s (and other dingdongs’) lack of reason is breathtaking. It’s… it’s… “Unreasonable Faith”!
(Get it? *snort*)
No one can prove God does exist, or that Anubis doesn’t exist.
*Snort*
I remain, sincerely,
Unconvinced
(except of Christian stupidity)
OK, I think the problem with atheism and Christianity, and most importantly, the debates between them, is that they are arguing from different platforms. My arguments are based on the Bible and the teachings of the Bible; whereas yours is based on the logical and rational sciences of how you think the world works. When these two views contradict, then there can’t really be any arguments because we are not arguing about the same thing.
e.g.
we all sinned, therefore we die – Bible
we all sinned, don’t mean we’d die – atheist
@dingdong
“Because I have seen what it can do with people and what it has done in me.”
There are over 1.4 billion muslims who would say the same thing. This does not make it true or qualify as evidence? Why is your belief more true than theirs?
Restless D:
Religious people however are completely closed minded to whatever new evidence that comes to light that disproves claims from whichever faith they are from. No matter what happens the religious just bend it into their world view and go
“God Dunnit”
I was a religious person and was exposed to new evidence. I am no longer a believer. There are many on this forum like me.
I think your argument is overstated but I think we both agree that getting out of religion is very tough.
Very astute. When the Bible contradicts the real world, we assume that the Bible must be wrong. I’m not sure how anyone could take the other path.
The latter would be more accurately stated as: We all die; doesn’t mean we all sinned.
@Question…
Daniel knows me well enough…and yes, he is promoting, marketing his blog and doing a rather fine job at it Q. None of this is by accident, he is plenty smart.
Regarding your other comments…this is our obvious divide…you see Him one way (or not at all) and I KNOW HIM to be entirely another…so who is right? You…or Him?
JC
@dingdong:
“we all sinned, don’t mean we’d die – atheist”
My friend…you really need to think before you type. We all die! Thats the point. I take issue with the fact that you keep throwing around sin like its a real thing.
@Val
1) I am not here to convince you that God exist.
2) Thanks for the snorting
3) how can you prove God doesn’t exist?
4) “Lack of reason” – believe is not about reason, but faith. And like I said, if you believe solely in reason, then you’d never believe in anything. And if you have faith, you don’t need a reason. Rationality is not superior over irrationality.
sin is a real thing, it ruins REAL people’s lives.
@ dingdong
“And like I said, if you believe solely in reason, then you’d never believe in anything.”
Really?
Think that one over again.
@john c
“I KNOW HIM”
You don’t ‘know’ him. Thats the point. Just because you really really really want something to be true, doesn’t make it so. You have yet to provide any objective evidence to his reality.
Getting out of “religion” is imperative, and btw…this is the first work God begins in our hearts after we come to know Him for who He really is…He starts shedding the religious (rule-kepping) robes from us and free’ing us to walk in love, liberty & in relationship with Him.
Religion is not the true message & offer of Christ.
JC
thank you wintermute for putting across my idea more clearly, on the “We all die; doesn’t mean we all sinned.” part anyways.
When the Bible contradicts the real world, we assume that the Bible must be wrong. I’m not sure how anyone could take the other path. Can you explain that please?
@dingdong
“When these two views contradict, then there can’t really be any arguments because we are not arguing about the same thing.”
Translation:
When someone disagrees with your biblical world view
“there can’t really be any arguments”
Closed minded much?
@dingdong:
“Rationality is not superior over irrationality.”
Do you read what you write before you hit submit? You are really not helping your argument here at all.
Guilty…
Oh yes I do…have for 25 yrs sir/madam. I know Him more & more each day…and guess what? He is…Love (1 John 4:16)
Learn the true offer & message of Christ…hint…it has nothing to do w/religion, rather life & intimacy.
JC
@dingdong:
“sin is a real thing”
okay can you point me to a textbook so I can read about it? The bible doesn’t count here.
Dingdong:
“My arguments are based on the Bible and the teachings of the Bible; whereas yours is based on the logical and rational sciences of how you think the world works.”
This thread is about God as He is exposed in the Bible. Please explain the biblical examples Daniel references in the orginal post. We are probably just as interested in the teachings of the Bible as you are.
dingdong,
“My arguments are based on the Bible and the teachings of the Bible; whereas yours is based on the logical and rational sciences of how you think the world works. When these two views contradict, then there can’t really be any arguments because we are not arguing about the same thing.”
1. Did the God of the Bible create everything?
2. If so, did he create the logical and the rational sciences?
3. If so, why shouldn’t we apply them to our study of religion and religious beliefs?
If there is an all-creating God, then mustn’t all truth be God’s truth?
What do you think?
@dingdong
So what I’ve just (hopefully) proved is that NO ONE CAN PROVE GOD DOESN’T EXIST. So I think, atheists, it wouldn’t harm if you keep an open mind.
Being unable to prove something does not logically imply, much less prove, its opposite. For example, I say “No one can prove there are no eggs in my fridge without opening the door to have a look”. That does NOT mean there definitely are eggs in my fridge, but by your reasoning you would insist there ARE eggs in there. It’s exactly the same argument you are using for the existence of God, and it’s fallacious.
Let’s just say I took you up on it though, and I bet you $100. You would lose your money, because I hate eggs so there are none in my fridge.
So what I have just (hopefully) proved is that your argument is a load of toss, basically.
As for keeping an open mind, if any Christian can give me a valid proof (which does not include false logic like above) that God exists, I will believe. In that sense, my mind IS open to conversion. It won’t be you though, since you can’t even be bothered to read the bible you so adamantly profess to believe, and your arguments are likely therefore to be lacking in substance.
@john c
“Oh yes I do…have for 25 yrs sir/madam. I know Him more & more each day…and guess what? He is…Love (1 John 4:16)”
This does not qualify as objective evidence. I’ve worked with people who believed that their thoughts were being listened to by aliens for years. This did not make it correct. It meant they had psychiatric issues that needed to be dealt with.
@Sara
“And like I said, if you believe solely in reason, then you’d never believe in anything.”
the word believe has two different meanings.
to have confidence in (the first believe)
to have a conviction (the second believe)
or rephrased.
“And like I said, if your mind functions solely on reason, then you’d never have a conviction in anything you do.”
what is your “objective evidence” that God doesn’t exist? (blast me with your atheists theories)(again)
Tele’s right in many ways here…God does not obviate our reasoning or expect us to be mindless dummy’s. The first step though, the believing, receiving part is more mystical (higher than reason), supernatural but the mind, like the rest of our faculties must become a “living sacrifice” unto God…what can God do with a mind subjected to His wonder’s, His light within?
I remember the line from the Telecast song “love is you inside my mind”..ahh Oneness, no more plurality, no more divided mind, but only One…peace.
@dingdong:
“objective evidence” that God doesn’t exist?
I don’t have to prove he exists…you do! You are making the affirmative statement. Its the same as me not having to prove invisible unicorns or fairies. I just don’t believe in them.
“Being unable to prove something does not logically imply, much less prove, its opposite.”
I am not persuading you God exist, I’m saying I believe God exist because I’ve seen him do work.
Acts chapter 4
7They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”
8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
” ‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.[a]‘[b] 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. 14But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. 15So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together. 16″What are we going to do with these men?” they asked. “Everybody living in Jerusalem knows they have done an outstanding miracle, and we cannot deny it. 17But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn these men to speak no longer to anyone in this name.”
18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”
21After further threats they let them go. They could not decide how to punish them, because all the people were praising God for what had happened. 22For the man who was miraculously healed was over forty years old.
*NIV VERSION
@Guilty…
I have only taken Him up on His true offer. The world doesn’t understand the offer, all they see is mind-numbing, oppressive…religion.
Keep in mind that the world’s population has increased since Biblical times, so that the carnage wrought by Yahweh 1.0 (pre-New Testament version) had more impact.
A further thought on this: If you judge by the percentage of existing population, rather than raw numbers; It’s hard to out-do Cain, who killed 1/4 of humanity.
OK, suppose the Bible said that there was a giant flood within the last 10,000 years that wiped out every animal species on the planet (including humans), except for a tiny breeding population in the Middle East. Further suppose that everything we know about geology, genetics, biogeography, hydrodynamics, climatology, dendrochronology, atomic physics, and a dozen other independent lines of evidence all said that such an event could not possibly have happened, which would you believe? Do you believe in a god who deliberately obscured every bit of evidence we could possibly find in an attempt to convince people that the flood didn’t happen? Or do you believe that the story in the Bible is simply not true?
What about if there was something that said that Christians could drink poison without any ill effects? Do you believe Mark 16:16-18 over your experiences of the real world? Are you willing to put this belief to the test?
What if the Bible claimed that making goats have sex in front of a striped screen would cause them to give birth to striped babies? Would you believe that, or not? If you tried it and found out that they gave birth to perfectly ordinary babies, would you still believe it, or would you accept that the real world takes precedence?
@dingdong:
Quoting scripture only brings us back to the original question. I have seen him work too throughout the scripture:
God Loves To Kill His Children
John C
“…you see Him one way (or not at all) and I KNOW HIM to be entirely another…so who is right? You…or Him?”
Have you heard about certainty bias? Neuroscience is learning alot about how we “know what we know”. You might profit from looking into it.
The contents of Daniel’s post stands on it’s own merits. You didn’t address my question which I repeat here:
“If one believes that the God of the Bible is real then he or she has to process the monstrosities that He commits. Please explain it.”
dingdong,
“what is your “objective evidence” that God doesn’t exist? (blast me with your atheists theories)(again)”
Well, let’s start out with what we know about God(s).
There are a few thousand of them, so we’ll want to first eliminate all the false ones.
Which ones are true and which ones are not? What is your standard?
Enlighten us how you meticulously sorted which ones are credible and which ones are not. What has been the result of your careful research?
If there were no churches, and no synagogues, and no mosques, and no scriptures, and no religious leaders, do you think you ever would have heard of any of this?
How would you know any of your beliefs without the human institutions which have spread them?
How do you know that their message is reliable?
You are making a positive assertion that God exists — that a specific, more or less exact kind of God exists.
Why should we believe you?
I am not persuading you God exist, I’m saying I believe God exist because I’ve seen him do work.
Acts chapter 4…
You are claiming to have been present during the events described in that New Testament passage, which if it happened at all, happened nearly 2000 years ago?
I don’t have to prove he exists…you do! You are making the affirmative statement. Its the same as me not having to prove invisible unicorns or fairies. I just don’t believe in them.
1) I’m not proving God exist
2) So you just don’t “believe”, so it is about believe. You have to believe.
3) To your earlier post (Im having difficulty keeping track here sorry) sin is real, point a textbook that suggests so….open your eyes, you don’t need a textbook.
@dingdong
“God exist because I’ve seen him do work. ”
Wow…… No Way!!!! REALLY?????
I’ve always wondered…..
What does HE look like??
Knowledge is commonly defined (in epistemological circles anyway) as:
justified
true
belief
(admittedly this may be a bit contentious for some philosophers)
If one only claims to have belief, then they cannot be said to have knowledge. Therefore no one can KNOW god.
@ dingdong
How do you define “sin”?
@dingdong
what is your “objective evidence” that God doesn’t exist?
I won’t blast you with theories. There is not sufficient proof to justify certainty or uncertainty in a god’s existence. If there is an intelligent designer of the universe, why is your god the right one? And if he is real, why would I want to spend eternity with the jealous, vengeful, and hateful god of the bible. Doesn’t sound like fun to me.
@Restless
I havent SEEN him, you don’t see wind, yet you see its effects.
(just hypothetically, if I said I HAD seen Him, would you have just say I’m a psychopath and should go to mental hospital? Because that seems to be the trend here)
Great difficulty keeping track with all the posts. ARGH
@dingdong:
2) So you just don’t “believe”, so it is about believe. You have to believe.
So I should believe in invisible unicorns, fairies, flying spaghetti monsters, Thor, etc. etc…Where does this end?
@ dingdong
“yet you see its effects”
How do you know what is causing those effects, if anything?
How do you know if Allah or Jesus or Krishna or Thor or a demon is doing those things?
You have no idea. How can you make a claim that you do?
In fact, how do you even know that there *is* anything behind those acts?
What about confirmation bias? How do you know that you’re not just seeing what you want to see?
The problem with sin:
We are human. We don’t have perfect knowledge (if such a thing even exists). We make mistakes. We are punished by God for these mistakes with death followed by eternal torture.
Dingdong strikes me as someone who probably hasn’t studied advanced calculus. Perhaps we should expect Dingdong to take an advanced calculus exam and then punish him/her with torture if s/he fails. Then, we’d be like god!
@ dingdong
The wind can be measured by scientific tools. Its speed, force, and direction can be counted and mapped out. It appears often and indiscriminately, to all people at all times.
God doesn’t fit that mold: immeasurable even in the rare occurrences he has appeared. Not a good example.
@sara:
Excellent explanation. Was just about to jump on that, but you answered it beautifully.
@ LRA
You can’t punish me for being terrible at math!!
Why didn’t you give me a longer-attention span and greater concentration skills if you really did intend for me to perform calculus?
See, this is the problem with a Creator God: humans have things which make us act certain ways.
Then, one particular book condemns us to eternal torture for acting on these behaviors which we’re born with.
LRA didn’t have to make me good at Calculus, but she could’ve given me better skills. Likewise, humans didn’t have to be perfect, but we could be much, much better than we are now.
@dindong
“psychopath” if you are going to throw out technical terms please actually make an attempt to learn what they mean.
@ guiltyhere
Thank you. I’ve been a lurker around here for a while; felt today was a good day to step in.
and @ dingdong
Just so you know, I’m a theist myself. It’s not that I think you’re wrong about God’s existence, but that I despise poor argumentation.
@ Sara
Great explanation of wind.
Spiritual things, however, as you explained, cannot be measured, do not “appear” indiscriminately, etc., etc., thus the invalid comparison.
Jabster: Indeed. According to Wikipedia, psychopathy is:
Do you think that describes you, dingdong? I hope not…
Which ones are true and which ones are not? What is your standard?
Those who have power to change people are real, those who do not have power to change people are false.
Those who change people for the better are God, those who change people for the worst are not God, but the Devil.
“Those who change people for the better are God”
from that, I think that only Christianity do that (or at least do it most) because it is a religion based on love. In other religions, you have to, say pray 5 times a day(islam), not eat animals for food(buddhism), but with Christianity, you don’t need to do any of that, because God loves us and have sent Jesus so if we believe in Him, that is all that is needed.
God want the best for his believers
that is my standard, afterall, God is divine so he must want the best for His believers.
“If there were no churches, and no synagogues, and no mosques, and no scriptures, and no religious leaders, do you think you ever would have heard of any of this?”
but God has left people to record the events and miracles. So if there were no scriptures etc etc I would never have know about God. But God would not let that happen and He hasn’t allowed that to happen.
Teleprompter-
If I was god I could punish you for anything I’d like! Mwaaahaahaahaaahaa!
So I should believe in invisible unicorns, fairies, flying spaghetti monsters, Thor, etc. etc…Where does this end?
maybe you should, it might be a good starting point :D
@dingdong
“I’m saying I believe God exist because I’ve seen him do work.”
“I havent SEEN him, you don’t see wind, yet you see its effects.”
So you didn’t now see him, but u KNOW it was him!?!?!?
What makes you utterly convinced it was God and not a chance event or at least say 10 other perfect good rational explanations?
“just hypothetically, if I said I HAD seen Him, would you have just say I’m a psychopath and should go to mental hospital?”
Psychopath…… I don’t know?
When you hypothetically saw ‘HIM’ did he tell you to:
Murder an abortion doctor?
Fly a plane full of innocent people into a building
Convince you that land you didn’t own was your God given right and worth murdering people for?
LRA,
Da*n (me), lol.
“Rationality is not superior over irrationality.” It isn’t. How can you say rational thoughts is better than irrational thoughts?
“Convince you that land you didn’t own was your God given right and worth murdering people for?”
you forgot people you didn’t own as your god given right, too (at least for 7 years)
@ dingdong
“God is divine so he must want the best for His believers.”
Why must his best only apply to believers?
Why not everyone?
Why not all who are created?
Is your god so egotistical that he can’t handle it? Is he so petty? so insensitive? so impervious to criticism?
Why not do what is best for everyone?
@dingdong:
@dingdong:
Hahahahahaha! *Snort*
I’m really becoming convinced to convert to Christianity, by a true living example, here!
@ dingdong
“How can you say rational thoughts is better than irrational thoughts?”
Because an experienced pilot landing a plane may actually land a plane safely, while a novice trying to land it, praying that he will do a good job, will probably kill everyone onboard.
dingdong: “God is the same today and forever.”
So then, “God” is still nonexistent. Sold.
Continues…”The wages of sin is death.”
Not quite—we all experience “death”, whether something called “sin” exists, or not(and it does not)
Continues….”In the old testament, that is what happened, if you sinned against God, commit evils like worshipping idols, you had to die. That, my friend is justice. We all sinned, so one day, we will all die.”
So, we are being held accountable for possessing an *inherent* attribute/characteristic that is supposedly undesirable in the eyes of the biblegod that you pretend to worship. In other words, we’re “guilty” of being born “human”. Very smart.
Well, firstly, that is a direct violation of (our) “free will”–that is, if we cannot choose to be any differently than we are. Secondly, the concept of “Original Sin” makes a mockery of what you like to call “justice”.
Continues….”I don’t think you can argue with that.”
Sure I/we can.
Continues….”So because people disobeyed God, they had to die. simple as.”
Nice. Okay, so either, a) the biblegod that you pretend to worship is a “sinner”(and thus, you worship a hypocrite), or b)”killing” is not actually a “sin”, in the absolute sense that it is portrayed. “a” or “b”?
Continues….”Today, Jesus came and took all their (our) sins so we don’t have to die. simple as.”
Yes, “simple as”….. except for one, not-so-small, problem: You, and your “Christian” constituents, have not one scrap of objective evidence for such claims. You have your “Holy” book; you have your personal experiences….. both of which, could make numerous opposing religions “True”.
(But let’s suppose dingdong’s religion is “true”, for sake of argument)
Okay, if “Jesus” did that for me – if he “took” my “sins” – then what’s the problem? Surely there shouldn’t be any problem, unless of course, there are strings attached. If there are strings attached..i.e..if there are requirements on my part that must be met for me to be eligible for the “Christian” benefits, then apparently my “sins” weren’t “taken away”, were they?(rhetorically asked)
Continues…”whether you believe in that or not is your opinion.”
Wrong. When I say, “I do not see any credible evidence for invisible, conscious beings”, that is not “my opinion”—I really do *not* believe the evidence before me is credible.
Continues…”I’m not saying atheists are any lesser in person that Christians, I am just telling you what the Bible says.”
Right, but the bible says nonbelievers are “lesser”, so, by extension, you are saying it too, since you are a proponent of the “Christian” philosophy.
Continues….”So please don’t come back an attack my views.”
If you don’t want your “views” attacked, then either adopt smarter views, or don’t post here. Simple as.
And so did Zeus, Odin, Mithras, and every other god who ever existed. I guess they must be real, too, huh?
We are punished by God for these mistakes with death followed by eternal torture.
NOT true, bending what I’m saying again.
We are punished by God for our “mistakes” and wrongdoings yes. But because God wants the best for us and don’t want to see us doomed, he sent Jesus to take this punishment off us. So that it won’t be death and eternal torture, but life and eternal happiness. It is only a choice you make. No one makes you suffer.
Calculus exam (where did that come from, tho I kinda liked it) – anyways, you can see this like Jesus is like a big brother, taking the punishment for you instead. And God won’t punish you for not knowing something, it’s only when you actively go and do evil things.
@dingdong:
“How can you say rational thoughts is better than irrational thoughts?”
Seriously? We are actually having this conversation?
ok.
rational thought: I am breathing.
irrational thought: I can swim to the bottom of the ocean and breath saltwater if I just believe enough.
You can’t see how rational thoughts are better?
And so did Zeus, Odin, Mithras, and every other god who ever existed. I guess they must be real, too, huh?
not all God’s who leaves scriptures means they are real, missing the point AGAIN. But the REAL God MUST have left some kind of clue so that we can find Him.
Have you read the post I was replying to?
@Dingdong
This should be obvious. When the bible contradicts the real world, we don’t actually need to ASSUME the bible is wrong.. we have proof. A claim in the bible contradicts reality. For example, rabbits don’t actually chew their cuds. No assumption required. The conclusion is that the bible is wrong on that particular claim. For example, the history and archeology of the holy land does not support many of the claims from the bible (Herod slaughtering children, the exodus, existence/destruction of cities in particular eras, Israelites/Judeans being monotheistic prior to the diaspora… many other things) and so people who are aware of this information should look at their bibles and think ‘Hey, this does not agree with the evidence of history.’
We can find out information about the past simply by carefully digging holes in the ground. Knowing that the evidence from this archeology and history can and does conflict with the words in the bible, a rational and skeptical person (or even someone who simply accepts the validity of archeology) must acknowledge that the bible is an untrustworthy source. Many things in the bible can be disproved, and if you really care about truth you should be pleased to see the untruths pointed out.
On the other hand, if some holy writing disagrees with reality (observable phenomena or perhaps repeatable experiments) and someone chooses to go with the holy writings and ignore reality, then that person loses the right to claim to be interested in the truth.
Are you interested in the truth, Dingdong?
I find it somehow humorous how I picked the name “dingdong” without thinking this is going to develop into a debate. And now I’m stuck with it.
@ dingdong
“But because God wants the best for us and don’t want to see us doomed, he sent Jesus to take this punishment off us.”
So since Jesus took the punishment, then we’re *ALL* free from this punishment, right?
Right?
Wait, there are conditions? Ugh, I knew I should’ve read the fine print.
Conditional unconditional love. That’s a first.
“It is only a choice you make. No one makes you suffer.”
Uh huh. So why couldn’t we just be annihilated instead of having to suffer for eternity? Who made that choice? Us?
No.
It would not be up to us. The system would be rigged if it were real.
“And God won’t punish you for not knowing something, it’s only when you actively go and do evil things.”
So what about people who don’t know that Islam isn’t the true religion? Would your god punish these people by sending them to hell?
What if they were good people, and *didn’t* go out and do evil things, but just didn’t know that Islam wasn’t true?
What do you propose for that?
Dingdong– Hello? Nothing ACTIVE about original sin! According to the bible, we are doomed to hell merely by being born!
And it is not a “simple choice” as you call it. Christianity comes with a bunch of rules (as dictated ad nauseum by Paul) concerning how we ought to behave. I take exception to those rules. Especially ones that say women are less than men (as I am a woman and know myself to be equal to men).
I mean superior to men… (jk!) ;)
Perhaps those deaths occurred at the hands of human beings who were incorrectly interpreting God? This has certainly happened (and continues to happen to this day).
The fact that you wrote this implies that you know what the “correct” interpretation should be. Is that what you meant? If not you, then who decides on the “correct” way to interpret god? What makes one way better than another?
@LRA:
Quiet you!
1 Timothy 2:11-15:”A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent…”
What you don’t believe that?
im interested in the truth, that is what I’ve been searching for. You are only looking at physical evidence and belief is anything but that.
@ dingdong
I won’t go back and quote all your posts, but I have a few questions.
Re: The Existence of Sin
Can you please explain for us the evidence you have for the existence of sin? Is it specific human behaviors? If so, can you please provide us a list of the behaviors your evidence show are sin?
Re: Proving the Non-Existence of God.
I agree with others that those who make incredible claims (the existence of invisible all knowing beings is pretty incredible), has the burden of proof. That being said, I will say that for me this is a matter of evidence. There simply is no objective evidence supporting the existence of god.
As science has advanced, it has provided answers to previously unknowable questions for which god had been assumed to be the answer. Given that track record (and it’s a loooong one) it is much more reasonable to assume that science will find natural causes for the unknown than that god is responsible.
Moreover, god’s failure to clearly communicate his/her message in a uniformly understandable form to all of mankind makes it extrememly likely he/she is a man made creation. Humans seek answers to the unknowable, when we can’t immediately figure out a cause we often attribute it to the supernatural.
While proving a negative is virtually impossible though, I have to admit a very small possibility that god exists. (Although evaluating the evidence, I think that possibility is probably equal to the possibility that I will sprout wings and fly this afternoon) Proving a positive is not so difficult though. Please provide us the objective evidence supporting:
1. Your claim that a god exists.
2. Your claim that your god exists.
3. Your claim that your god is worthy of worship.
@Dindong…
Its ok, you picked a good name. They think we’re foolish & gullible anyway so, since we no longer have any reputation of our own to protect, and our lives are hidden w/God in Christ…just be content to be a fool…for Christ. I’ve been called every name in the book, I love’m still.
God has given me such a love for these guys (and gals) over the last couple months…just love’m anyway…cuz that’s what love does…it just…loves. And love is the only thing that really ever changes us, the only lasting thing.
From one fool to another…God bless
JC
As I recall, Jesus’ punishment was suppose to have been a hew hours of agony, after which he got resurrected and got to go to heaven, right? So, if that punishment was enough to pay for the sins of billions of people, my share of that punishment must be…. being bitten by an especially tiny gnat?
Or do you believe that Jesus has to actually go to hell for all eternity on your behalf in order to suffer what you otherwise would? If you really believe in Jesus, how can you let that happen to him?
Also, I note that you’ve backed away from your earlier claim that justice required that our sins get punished; now you believe that our sins don’t get punished, so long as we believe in the right god. So, yay for bypassing justice!
@dingdong:
@dingdong:
@dingdong:
@dingdong:
@dingdong:
Hahahahahaha! Too funny!
I can feel myself becoming convinced and converted to Christianity by this tower of reason and shining living example.
@john c
There hasn’t been any name calling here except for the individual who at the beginning of the thread called many of us:
“you dumb ass atheist ”
Before retreating away to never be heard from again.
Asking for proof for incredible claims doesn’t equate to name calling.
Can’t debate anymore now, must go, I’ve bookmarked the page and will come back to argue with you about how you can’t say God doesn’t exist. (hopefully, with a different name)
Good talking to you all, and this is no sarcasm, God Bless.
Not saying God doesn’t love back then, but He set up rules for people to follow, so humanity can love each other, he set these rules for the good of the people, and if they disobeyed, then the only way back then is through death.
Please explain how the prohibitions against making graven images was “for the good of the people,” and not as a way to protect an insecure god’s fragile ego.
Read what Aor wrote above, Dingdong, he dropped some wisdom on you.
The bible has pretty much the same truth to fiction ratio as any other ancient religious text. I mean, does the fact that Athens actually exists as a city mean you believe that the goddess Athena stood watch over it in person, and caused statues of herself to speak to her oracles? I bet not.
@guilty..
Yea, I saw that guys dumb $#@ post…was disappointing…not exactly showing the love of God huh? Until we can love, we should say nothing.
Once I saw a marquee church sign that read:
“Preach the gospel everywhere you go, if necessary use words”
beautiful
last note, then
JC didn’t say “you dumb ass atheist ”
“I can feel myself becoming convinced and converted to Christianity by this tower of reason and shining living example.” GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD, that God is not about reason. And being a Christian is not about knowing everything there is to know about God, it is about not knowing God but having a thirst to know him more, because He loves us so much.
To JC, I’m going now, but GOD BLESS YOU HAHAHA.
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you.
VERSE 11 HAHAHAHAH
killer blow – you guys been arguing with a 16 year old
God is about love, in fact God is love. Believing God is about love, not wisdom.
Being a Christian is not about knowing everything, it is about love. Love, understand this, God is Love. Not evidence, or objective evidence. That’s what science is, evidence, evidence, God is not.
*really have to go*
@ dingdong
“killer blow – you guys been arguing with a 16 year old”
And you’re still not giving us any coherent arguments?
I’m barely older than you are, dingdong. You have no excuse not to know what you’re talking about.
@dingdong:
“God is about love”
I think you are close here…let me help:
God Loves To Kill His Children
Out of the mouth’s of babes….lol
@ dingdong
“God is about love, in fact God is love. Believing God is about love, not wisdom.”
If God is love, why does the god of the Bible do such despicable things?
Wait, wasn’t that the point of this very post?
Brilliant!
And yet your arguments are poorly thought out and unconvincing. Who would have ever expect that from a teenager who’s never even bothered to read the book they believe is the actual word of god?
Amazing.
well I began reading ALL the stuff that was responded to me and got bogged down SO I am going to write a bit of what was asked first of all.
As for the man who leads a good life but doesn’t believe in God…No he is not going to hell. Also, most of Christianity believe there are 2 places one to be happy and one to suffer and I don’t agree with that. HOW could that be fair? Paul even mentions that there are heavens compared to the stars, to the moon, and to the sun? We reap what we sow and no matter what religion they will receive according to what they did.
Now I hope I don’t sound preachy when presenting this point of view (please forgive me) but I believe in multiple places we can go after this. God lives in the top one BUT everyone of the places you can go are better than this earth as it is right now. only a handful will get a special punishment and that is Cain, Lucifer, Judas, and a few others. THAT being said everyone getting a reward for what they do and don’t do in this life IS part of a plan of a merciful God. Now the pain and everlasting torment is your own guilt. Imagine living forever remembering perfectly every person you hurt? you live in a great peaceful place but that guilt would eat me up.
Also, what is God IS a scientist? he has mastered immortality and been able to harness the elements and he has been around so long that he can do whatever he wants. What does he do? sit there and study and discover more? already been done. His goal is to share what he has with all of us. everything he has we could have if we prove ourselves worthy and capable of it.
BUT what would a Hitler do with god-like powers? what would others do with it? corrupt it and use it for their gain. that is why we are here to truly test if we are ready for more. Only way to TRULY judge our character would be to leave the “space ship” or home or whatever that really smart being lives in and come to a place where we can’t remember anything and see what we do.
The true test of a man is to see how he acts when no one is watching. what better way for a being to “test” his creations (children) to give them more power and responsibility?
Again I know my hypothesis will be torn apart and criticized but just like you tell me (a christian) to keep my mind open, why don’t you? Maybe this God person is JUST like us but much older and smarter….
@samsom
“The true test of a man is to see how he acts when no one is watching.”
Such as how Joseph Smith kept secret from most of his followers that he has many wives for a very long time. right?
@ Sampsomonium
My mind is open, but do you have any good reasons why what you’ve just said might be true or even possible?
Evidence, please? Arguments, please?
Any good reasons whatsoever to believe *anything* you’ve just said?
“killer blow – you guys been arguing with a 16 year old”
Not sure why this is “killer.”
Kudos to you for arguing with smart people about difficult subjects at a young age. Your arguments aren’t particularly well thought out though, and your age probably explains that.
I do hope you come back to answer my questions.
I keep asking similar questions to theists here and they never seem to come back with answers. It’s disappointing
And just as a note:
I DID skip all things regarding Dingdog because he is here to argue and I could care less about that. I wanted to discuss so anything relating to his conversation or replies to him were skipped. Sorry Dingdong persuasion can never be fully accomplished when you seek to argue.
@Tele
You can’t punish me for being terrible at math!!
If we’re all going to have a turn at being god, who gets to punish the stupid people?
@jabster
“psychopath” if you are going to throw out technical terms please actually make an attempt to learn what they mean.
Does the God of the OT qualify as a psychopath, do you reckon? By my reckoning, he’s certainly an egomaniac narcissist megalomaniac with extreme anger issues.
@dingdong
but with Christianity, you don’t need to do any of that, because God loves us and have sent Jesus so if we believe in Him, that is all that is needed… God is divine so he must want the best for His believers.
Again, I don’t see evidence for that. If we accept the bible is God’s word (and I’m not saying I do accept that… but for now) – then how can you say God loves us and wants the best for us? Are those actions – referenced at the top of this post – the actions of a loving father? Are they?
@JC
just love’m anyway…cuz that’s what love does…it just…loves
Aww, he just a big fwuffy bunny-wabbit!
@ sam
As for the man who leads a good life but doesn’t believe in God…No he is not going to hell. Also, most of Christianity believe there are 2 places one to be happy and one to suffer and I don’t agree with that. HOW could that be fair?
I agree. :-) That’s very “reason”able of you.
@ Sampsomonium
Interesting theories. Not in line with any theology I have heard of. Although I am no theologian.
What evidence do you have to support these theories?
@Tele-
For what its worth, coming from me…for a younger man you have a good grasp on mature theme’s, debate, man’s plight, religion, history etc. The wheels of your deep (albeit youthful) mind are obviously turning…impressive.
Its been a pleasure discussing things with you, even if we mostly disagree…I would not have assumed you to be so young…you have my admiration Tele….keep it up…you are more of a true seeker than you may realize in mho….again for what its worth, prob not much but thought I would pass it along anyway.
Kudo’s
JC
As for proof…
What about Einstein’s theories? String theory? Is not what I am doing theorizing what might be? I am not asking nor telling any of you to believe it. I am just stating that “maybe” it could be just like evey other scientist says TILL he can prove it.
@Sampsomonium
“God lives in the top one BUT everyone of the places you can go are better than this earth as it is right now.”
This still leaves the question open as to whether taking three people who lead identical lives except one believed in your god, one believed in different god and one believed in no gods. In you view does this mean that they should all go to the same place in the afterlife?
dingdong: “*really have to go*”
‘ Promise this time?
________________________________________
Previously, LAR, to dingdong: “Nothing ACTIVE about original sin! According to the bible, we are doomed to hell merely by being born!”
True; we are being held accountable for being “inherently” imperfect..i.e..”human”. Again, a violation of free agency, that is, if we cannot choose to be any differently than we are. It’s like blaming a goldfish for being “wet”.
Christianity is nonsense.
@Professor…
Love is not like that sir…its a power…the grandest of all.
@Boomslang…
Religion is nonsense…Christ indwelling is…life.
@sampsom
Einstein’s theories are very different than simply conjecturing something might be true as you are doing. You are confusing the lay term theory with the scientific term theory.
“it could be just like evey other scientist”
Are you claiming to be a scientist?
“Somethings in the Bible, yes, we see it as unreasonable, but that is due to change in society and what people accepted as morally right.”
It’s interesting that many fundamentalist Christians rail against situational ethics and cultural relativism yet freely ascribe such to their God.
And it is common, as seen in the comment above, that when their God’s atrocities are pointed out they try to shift the discussion to what humans thot was right or wrong. It’s really, really unreasonalbe that just because people felt it was alright to commit genocide that Almighty God could lead them down that path with impunity.
@Sam
Sorry, but having read the BoM in its entirety, and having read a number of studies on the LDS church, all I can say is that you’ll have to get past all of the epic failures of that book before you can move on to trying to prove the rest of the theology.
Hebrews came to America, really? Too bad there is absolutely no DNA evidence of this migration.
Ancient South American civilizations had iron swords, wheeled chariots, coins, glass beads, horses? Really? Too bad not one of those things has ever been found.
Joseph Smith was the most sincere seeker after god, and was therefore granted the greatest revelation of truth? Really? Even though prior to that he’d been a petty con man and practicer of divination? Even though he used this amazing revelation to set up a church in which he could sleep with other men’s wives? Even though he used his followers to try and grab political power through dishonest means? That’s the guy with the greatest spiritual revelation in history?
And the church he set up is a winner, too. Amazing how ‘revelation’ keeps happening to change the belief system based on the laws of the land. Amazing how the revelation against polygamy happens just in time for Utah to apply for statehood. How the revelation allowing black people to hold the priesthood happens just as the equal rights movement is gaining power. How the temple ordinances all change because more and more news outlets are reporting on how weird they are.
Seriously. All religions are failures of logic and rationality, but yours is particularly egregious.
When I came back from lunch and taking a friend to the airport and saw that there were 214 (and counting) responses I knew that many of them would be filled with woo. Dingdong (how apt) and John C never fail to disappoint (insofar as parroting superstitious woo is concerned).
If you’re going to use the language of science, what you’re doing is hypothesising, not theorising. A theory needs to have predictive power, and it needs to have endured attempts to disprove it.
And if all you’re expecting is as much credence as we give unsupported ideas from scientists, then fine: It’s interesting, but there’s no reason to believe that it’s right. Does that satisfy you?
@ Sampsomonium
“As for proof…
What about Einstein’s theories? String theory? Is not what I am doing theorizing what might be? I am not asking nor telling any of you to believe it. I am just stating that “maybe” it could be just like evey other scientist says TILL he can prove it.”
OK – I just want to make sure I’m clear on this. Are you saying your theory is an unproven hypothesis?
Are you saying it rises to to the level of scientific theory, like the theory of relativity or evolution?
If it’s the former – fair enough – although living your life by unproven hypothesis strikes me as a bit dangerous. But if you admit it’s unproven, we don’t really have anything to argue about.
It it’s the later, then there should be “proof” to back it up.
LOL. Geez peeps. Haven’t y’all ever heard of baby steps? Do we expect people to go from Apollo to Socrates in one day?
@Sampsomonium
There’s a relatively large amount of Einstein’s theories they have been shown to be true so if you want some proof go and do a bit of googling. String theory is not accepted to the same standard as it has not be tested to the level at which it can be considered to be a theory in scientific terms. There is nothing in it that seems fundamental flawed but as yet there is no real verifiable tests that can be performed although I believe that some of the work by the LHC may help support it — anyone else who a bit more knowledge on this please feel free to correct me. Compare these approaches to how religion gains knowledge and the difference is stark.
Oh how become prisoners of our own (divided) minds making…when Oneness is the offer…no more interna war’ing, no more pluralities
Let this MIND be IN you which was in Christ Jesus…and He was One w/His Father…as He is in the world so are we.
Can ANYONE speculate on the TRUE OFFER of Christ??
Anyone, someone…PLEASE?
No wonder this gets old…all you guys talk about is that dead thing…RELIGION!
WHAT IS THE REAL OFFER? Or does anyone actually care?
I’m not an atheist but I do not believe in religion.
I (like the majority of people in the world) am afraid of death and would like to think that when I die, an invisible being will take my soul to a place so good it’s impossible to describe… But come on! Let’s not be gullible and believe what other imperfect humans tell us.
Religion is just a big telephone game where the fictional, already rotten message keeps on getting uglier and uglier… It’s just an excuse to be kill and abuse people who aren’t like us and get away with it.
I believe in “God” in my own way that only I understand… a way that according to christianity is gonna send me to “hell” anyway for defending people of different religions, nationalities or sexual preferences…. However my beliefs do not keep me from acknowledging the fact that the idea of God, (or at least the christian god) DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE!
-”God” kills thousands of innocent people every day.
-He made gay people the way they are.
-He’s so selfish he is free of sin, yet he didn’t make us that way.
-He gave us the “privilege” of choosing what we wanted in life, but he was not kind enough to give EVERYONE a sense of morality so that when they die they can go to heaven too! (how discriminative of him)
He made us the way we are and still refuses to take his own creation into his home?? are you kidding me….?
I think this is a very fucked up “God”. Kind of a hypocrite and very egocentric.
So, bottom line: Christians, Catholics and everyone else who believes in a “God”. Focus on saving yourself from eternal damnation and leave the rest alone! Your comments are never gonna change the mind of an atheist, because… atheists (unlike you) DO MAKE SENSE!
John C: “Until we can love, we should say nothing.”
Really? And who determines if other human beings are capable of “love”, or not? ‘Listening.
The guy in question made an insensitive comment, yes. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that this individual is entirely incapable of/devoid of, “love”. You see, John C., you have this (very distorted) “black-n-white” mentality, where you think that a one-time offense of an act/action makes a person inherently one way, or the other….i.e..capable of “love”/not capable of “love”. Absurd.
For instance, as the fable goes……your great, great – add a few hundred generations – grandparents, “Adam & Eve”, made one bad decision in the Garden, and therefore, that makes them, and *all* of humanity, “inherently evil”. Well, what if they hadn’t eaten the “forbidden fruit”???…would they, and thus, we, be “inherently good”?..i.e..incapable of making the “wrong” choice; incapable of insensitivity, etc? ‘Seems to me that that, too, would be a violation of free agency.
____________________________________________
Also, tell us about “hell”, John C. If “hell” is part of the “rule-keeping” that you discourage all of the time, then does that mean it is non-existent, as far as your customized, “unconventional” Christian views are concerned?
You’re kidding. The reasoning power was at least at the second-grade level!
@ John C,
Can ANYONE speculate on the TRUE OFFER of Christ??
The holy instant is truly the time of Christ. For, in this liberating instant, no guilt is laid upon the Son of God, and his unlimited power is thus restored to him. What OTHER gift can you offer me, when ONLY THIS I will to offer YOU? And to see me, is to see me in everyone, and offer everyone the gift you offer me. I am incapable of receiving sacrifice as God is. And every sacrifice that you ask of YOURSELF, you ask of me. Learn NOW that sacrifice, of ANY kind, is nothing but a LIMITATION IMPOSED ON GIVING. And, BY this limitation, you have limited YOUR acceptance of the gift I offer YOU.
We who are one, cannot give separately. When you are willing to accept OUR relationship AS REAL, guilt will hold NO attraction for you. For, in OUR union, you will accept ALL of our brothers. The gift of union is the only gift that I was born to give. Give it to ME, that YOU may have it. The time of Christ is the time appointed for the gift of freedom, offered to everyone. And, by YOUR acceptance of it, you have offered it TO everyone. It IS in your power to make this season holy. For it is in your power to make the time of Christ be NOW.
John C, nobody cares about your witnessing. You come across as a deluded rambling potential schizophrenic. Lack of coherent sentences implies lack of coherent thought. You ask if anyone actually cares.. I ask if you care at all about your own words. You put so little effort into making sense that you must not respect our collective ability to think.
I’ve said it before.. you are a poor witness.
@Boomslang…
Since you mentioned it…what was the “forbidden fruit” boomslang? And why are you still consuming it…today?
Regarding the poster who called Atheists dumb $#@’s, I was merely pointing out the most unhelpful approach, demeanor and the much wiser one of simply loving…everyone regardless of their position or beliefs.
JC
“what was the “forbidden fruit” boomslang? And why are you still consuming it…today?”
Does this kind of rambling make anyone else’s head spin?
@Cello…
Stay up a little late last night friend? What did that have to do with the “true offer” question I posed?? I read it, every word as a courtesy to you…it makes less sense than…me, lol. Didnt quite hit the right note Cello…
Keep practicing your notes Cello..
JC
@ guilty
“Does this kind of rambling make anyone else’s head spin?”
Yes – I learned pretty quickly that JC isn’t willing or able to present his thoughts coherently. You can’t have a meaningful discussion with someone who just doesn’t make sense, and apparently has no understanding of how to use language. It’s probably best to just ignore.
@Bill
“It’s probably best to just ignore.”
Thanks for the tip. Will do my best.
@ John C
I read it, every word as a courtesy to you…it makes less sense than…me, lol.
Yes. Purposeful obfuscation.
There is an ultimate point to the quote (which is not mine), however. Union with Christ is where we find freedom, which is your premise. And also the premise of A Course in Miracles which you may or may not knowingly parrot.
I see the need for education to stop illiteracy and unclear thinking.
This is the very heart and core of religion. Fear of punishment. If you had no punishment to fear, what would you still believe? Loving a God you fear can’t happen.
Before Christians predictably spout the same tired verse, whether there is any truth in it or not: if your perfect love casted out fear, then you would not have the fear of punishment in Christianity. But it’s there, and Christianity needs to keep fear of hell there to keep the masses in line with fear.
Some things are below attempts to give reasoned replies. For this, I say, “Somebody call the waaaaaambulance!”
“Belief” is “the activity of accepting something as real”. Accepting that the earth was flat never made it so. The healthiest beliefs are those based on as much observation of fact as possible, and subject to change with further information. Doubt is part of the very structure of the activity of believing. The best you can do is pretend to yourself that you have no doubt. Grunting and straining and telling people that you KNOW the earth is flat doesn’t make it so. Belief is not knowing.
I believe (the act of accepting as real, subject to change with further information) in intuition and am not even atheist, but I am repulsed by muddled thinking and rationalizations of belief parading as fact.
True…flesh & spirit dont communicate well…but occasionally, spirit “hears” something that reminds him of his true (spiritual) ancestry and then eureka! One awakens out of the deep (adamic) sleep!
That was a hint…wink, wink
“WHAT IS THE REAL OFFER?”
Nothing.
“Or does anyone actually care?”
Nope.
John C:
“Can ANYONE speculate on the TRUE OFFER of Christ??”
No, not really. Not until you can establish that:
1. Christ actually existed (in close proximity to the claims in the gospels);
2. that he actually rose miraculously from the dead before shooting off into space; and,
3. that his supposed substitutionary death makes any rational sense.
So far, to me your position seems to be that because what you believe makes you feel really, really loving and really, really loved it’s truth is self evident.
John C
Maybe Christ was real, and maybe his function was to activate full human potential in everyone. Maybe intuition can connect us to our source, without the need for religion.
But I am still repulsed by Christians’ rambling thinking, believers pretending that their belief is knowing fact, circular reasoning, name-calling, ASSuming that their premises upon which they found their rambling argument are believed by others, let alone true.
Love is an activity of accepting someone else, for a definition that seems workable, subject to change with further information.
But I despise mushiness, more rambling, and spouting of love casting out fear when Christianity keeps its followers in line with fear. Don’t think so? When they remove the concept of hell entirely from Christianity, then I will actually consider that it has some value.
Well, no, I won’t. The killing that started this post is something Christians have attempted to rationalize, and failed.
John C does seem to be willing to leave “religion” behind for, I hope, something that loves and does good. But:
(1) There are still the rambling, meaningless posts, and
(2) atheists, Wiccans, and members of any and of no religion can love and do good as well as anyone.
This post’s argument for a killing God: SUSTAINED!
Case for Christianity: OVERRULED!
“So far, to me your position seems to be that because what you believe makes you feel really, really loving and really, really loved it’s truth is self evident.”
I had a teddy bear like that when I was five.
“I had a teddy bear like that when I was five.”
But I bet – even at five – you didn’t think that Teddy was “alive in your heart.”
Par for the course.
John C.(proselytizing “Christian” advocate/annoyance) addresses his opponent’s arguments “a la carte”. He simply refuses to(or more likely, cannot) address the salient arguments put before him, only “answering” what he *thinks* he has a good answer for. He is beyond troll status, IMO.
Anyway, here we go….
John C: “Since you mentioned it…what was the ‘forbidden fruit’ boomslang? And why are you still consuming it…today?”
I am not “consuming” any “forbidden” food-product, John C. Again, because I don’t believe that there is/was any literal “forbidden fruit”, because as I’ve told you dozens and dozens of times, I don’t believe the Christian philosophy(the Bible) is the “Word” of a “God”. I don’t believe in “God”/gods, John C. I do, however, argue under the *pretense* that said bed-time story is “True”, to give you, the “Christian”, a chance to make your philosophy believable to intelligent people who value reason and logic, over “faith”. Thus far, you have failed. Epic fail, in fact. Specifically, you have not demonstrated (to me) that you have an all-loving, invisible, conscious being residing inside you(or anywhere near you). No. You have, however, demonstrated your inability to be intellectually honest, and that your personal beliefs have made you an arrogant, self-righteous zealot.
Tell us about “hell”, John C. Again, this is entirely relevent to this discussion, despite your insistance that it isn’t. Stop evading the question—lying is a “sin”, John C…even when/if it’s for “God”.
Tsk, tsk.
PS: BTW, you answered my previous question about “inherent evil”/”inherent good” with a question—-you ask, but don’t answer. The nerve’…
Val, to John C: “When they remove the concept of hell entirely from Christianity, then I will actually consider that it has some value.”
See? “Hell” *is* relevent, John C.
Tell us about it.
John C: “….but occasionally, spirit ‘hears’ something that reminds him of his true (spiritual) ancestry and then eureka! One awakens out of the deep (adamic) sleep!
That was a hint…wink, wink”
No, that wasn’t a “hint”; it was an insult(and not the first)….i.e…those who don’t agree with John C.’s views are in a “sleep”, of some sort.
Nonetheless…if I cannot/will not awaken from this “deep sleep”, I would like to know from any “True Christian” if that means an eternity in “hell”, for me. Any takers?
John C
I too am asking you to answer my question. This is my third request. It concerns the original post by Daniel.
“If one believes that the God of the Bible is real then he or she has to process the monstrosities that He commits. Please explain it.”
Don’t hold your breath waiting for John C. to get off his self-imposed cross and make any logical sense of the theistic diarrhea he spouts. He’ll continue to come into various threads, rattle off some drivel that would make the Hybrids on Battlestar Galactica sound like erudite scholars, and then derail the rest of the thread with his solipsistic nonsense.
I’m not entirely surprised, Dingdong’s age would explain his lack of enthusiasm in reading the Bible, as well as the lack of experience/information needed in an argument about his doctrine. Not to mention his English proficiency as well.
I do appreciate his determination to stay until he absolutely has to go, one has to devout much time and energy for an argument, he has devouted much less than warranted and/or needed, but for a 16 years old I would commend him.
However, what I do not appreciate is his blind faith in religion, as well as lack of logic on his part. The most prevalent being the denying (on his part) the burden of proof, and pushing it unto us. I’d recommend him to read up on perhaps some logic textbooks. If he doesn’t mind the bible, I don’t think he’ll mind “The Art of Defending – A logic textbook”.
I’d also suggest to any on the brink of agnosticism as well as those on the extreme ends of censervatism to perhaps, read more about logic, so that they can see the fallacies contained within both sides of the argument (I’m not siding, but we, the atheists have a much more coherent and less flawed case), so that you might be able to find out what exactly is a fallacy, and how it should be avoided.
@Val
Wiccans, eh?
Nearly forgotten.
Richard Dawkin’s case of the probablity of a single and unifying god. Is very much lost when trying to reach the extreme ends of the conservative end. They deny the existence of any other god, on unproven grounds and without any basis. In DD’s case, it would be that the Christian god was based out of love (Whereas he denies that any other god does so), in JC’s case, it would be that the christian god had a larger meaning than to solely believe in him. (Which I believe to the the main argument in his posts, the true nature of god is to drive you into disowning him?)
DD’s case is easy to dismantle and be mounted against him. Unfortunately, it also seems to be the stand that most contemporary christians take when they’re not fundamentalists.
Kind of sad, really.
Oh. Hi! I’m new here! ^_^
Hi Richard! Welcome :)
@Richard Kong
“I’m not entirely surprised, Dingdong’s age would explain his lack of enthusiasm in reading the Bible, as well as the lack of experience/information needed in an argument about his doctrine. Not to mention his English proficiency as well.
I do appreciate his determination to stay until he absolutely has to go, one has to devout much time and energy for an argument, he has devouted much less than warranted and/or needed, but for a 16 years old I would commend him.”
He said he was 16 not 6 — do you really think that’s the sort of standards you might expect from an average 16 year old?
@roger
rattle off some drivel that would make the Hybrids on Battlestar Galactica sound like erudite scholars, and then derail the rest of the thread with his solipsistic nonsense.
Aha! Vogon poetry.
An average 16 years old, yes. An exceptional 16 years old would be what you need to productively counterargue here.
I myself do not live in the United States (I’m from Malaysia BTW, and I’m 19), but the extremely stupid 16 year olds here are still in the midst of discovering who they are, listening to emo-goth music and trying to slit their wrists. By no means that they are the norm, but I would like to state that the norm isn’t what you would need to get a intelligent, productive argument or discussion going on. I’m just glad he wasn’t just coming here to get attention that he might’ve lacked or something. Hence, attention whoring.
I myself was an ignorant idiot when I was 16, attention whoring isn’t that much uncommon.
I do not know what your image of a 16 year old, perhaps you might want to enlighten me?
Sorry for the typos.
I meant “What’s your image of a 16 year old.”
I am not convinced that DD can be an atheist in the near future with the aid of epiphanies though. Just an IMO.
@Richard Kong
Someone who can at least put together a vaguely coherent argument — I mean they all have to do at least some of this in education do they not? I just find it hard it believe that standards have fallen so low that that’s average. If it is then I’m going to start praying as we’re all totally screwed! On the other hand he may have just been a troll.
Guilty-
Ha! You only shut me up for a little while with that verse!
he he he! (not really… I had to go to class.) ;)
***
I suspected dingdong to be a kid given the low maturity level and glorious lack of sophistication or perhaps a foreigner given the atrocious English.
***
JC- how are we to get at the true message other than by reading the bible? Then, how are we cherrypick through its inconsistencies?
@ALL…
Gosh guys (and gals) I leave for an hour to go workout and this is the welcome back I receive?? Geez…that does it, I’ve finally had enough…I guess I’m just gonna have to…LOVE YOU ALL THE MORE!! What did you think I was gonna say anyway? Love is a POWER I tell you…a POWER.
@Val…Fear is a poor motivator. Love is the soil by which our nature grows. If, as scripture says that…the fear (reverence for His ways over our own) is the beginning of wisdom, then the love of God is the end-product of wisdom.
@Boomslang…why the obsession with what is NOT in the true offer & message? After all, its not called the “good news” for nothing. If you spent half the time & energy learning the details of the true offer that you currently spend musing otherwise then you would be much further along by now dear sir.
@Question I thority…and I could inquire of you the inverse, care to count the positive vs negative? The unveiling of the Father’s true nature (love) is a wonderful by-product of the spiritual journey but you’ll never know unless you start out on the light path to knowing and being known. As with most, while you typically take the much appreciated high road of discourse, you are fully unaware of the true offer & message of Christ, yet are quite willing to join in the with the dissenting mob of the uninformed. So I ask you again…sir (or ma’am) what is it? Tell me this and I will gladly answer your questions please.
JC
@LRA:
Well it was worth a shot ;)
The Godbotters just won’t stop comin!
Oh what fun!!
And it’s so much more fun when you are familiar with the commenters. Even John C doesn’t disappoint. Damn work and school for making me miss out!
I like the new faces.
This was my fav:
Hehe… After your “killer blow”, I wouldn’t recommend using the name again. Your wonderful name seems to have been tainted, and it’s all your fault.
Perhaps you can return with a fresh perspective, and call yourself
@Jabster
We are doomed. XD
Nah, it’s just that most of the kids nowadays just don’t really care about these kinds of stuff, they think they’re having a difficult time just getting through life the way it is. I find it rare that a 16 year old would actively participate in an argument. Not that I think any of his arguments are not pure bacon. He is putting out a coherent argument, just not a well made one, as well as flawed beyond any adjectives that I can come up with. As for the matter of standards, perhaps we need to do a little more research. Perhaps anyone here knows of a survey that targets teens at 16 year olds about their area of interest? I doubt “debating about the existence of god” is very high on the list.
I trust coherent in this sense means “Understandable” or “Comprehendable”. Unlike some of JC’s… thoughts? ideas? Hypothesis? Honestly I do not know what he is driving at (Brick Wall, maybe?), except that it vaguely resembles what I said earlier, which is also self contradictory to christian doctrine.
Funny how nothing the fundies say makes much sense. Especially when given the same about of scrutiny that we grant for any amount of different phenomena that can be explained with science.
Wow, I can’t believe I said “comprehendable”, the Pseudoephidrine must be messing with my head (Does wonders for this flu I’m having though). I meant “comprehensible”. XD
John C states:
@Question I thority…and I could inquire of you the inverse, care to count the positive vs negative? The unveiling of the Father’s true nature (love) is a wonderful by-product of the spiritual journey but you’ll never know unless you start out on the light path to knowing and being known. As with most, while you typically take the much appreciated high road of discourse, you are fully unaware of the true offer & message of Christ, yet are quite willing to join in the with the dissenting mob of the uninformed. So I ask you again…sir (or ma’am) what is it? Tell me this and I will gladly answer your questions please.
JC
I have asked you in good faith three times to give a reasonable answer to reasonable questions concerning the nature of the God of the Bible. You finally respond by refusing to answer and instead requiring me to answer your question.
You are arrogant and blind. You know nothing about my past but that doesn’t stop you from judging what I know and don’t know. I grew up in evangelicism, was a minister for about a decade and led literally thousands into a born again experience. I had those experiences you treasure but the truth is that the Bible doesn’t add up and I was finally able to figure that out. I have exactly zero desire to be back floating around on platitudes detached from reality.
@Richard Kong
“I doubt “debating about the existence of god” is very high on the list.”
Agreed. I was at least impressed with that, from a 16 year old. I have a cousin who is about to turn 20, and he’s studying theology with hopes to become a priest. I’ve been wondering if I should inquire as to whether he’s put any thought into the things we talk about here, as he should be able to consider the points maturely now.
A few years ago, definitely not. Especially since all he has ever known is a Southern Baptist environment.
@Question…
Most “christians” remain in the flesh…never piercing the veil…never going on to maturity. Never attaining to the full measure of the stature of Christ…you are not alone sir in this regard. This is most professing “christian’s experience. Obviously you had a “religious” experience…I’m not implying you were insincere, just that most never penetrate the garment of flesh and attain the high ground. It costs us EVERYTHING to do this and few are willing to pay the price.
What is the core “christian” experience? Its a walk “in the spirit”…what does this mean…to walk in the high places, to be caught up in the whirlwind, the place of high fruitfulness and light, where the brush of the spirit is ever swirling in the light of God’s spirit within??
No former “christian” who deny’ Christ has EVER been there, if you had you would not be able to deny Him altogether. My experience is not a traditional, religious one. I am no better than you sir, only not satisfied with the status quo…most uncontent with a mere”religious” experience.
This is why I say, no scream aloud to all who have ears to hear….THERE IS MORE, THERE IS A LIFE.
JC
@Sampsomonium
As a former LDS member/Mormon something I always found interesting and that most people, even my seminary teachers had contradictory views on is the idea of free agency, which as you know is one of the central ideas to LDS theology.
When you ask why God killed these people, many will tell you it is because they were sinners. They would not repent and never would. They were so far gone there was no redemption.
But then when you ask about free agency too, then giving sinners the ability to make their own choices would then reasonably make God’s decision to kill them hypocritical. Either they should have the ability to make bad and good choices, or we don’t truly have free agency.
Many Mormons would tell you that people do have free agency, God just know what you’re going to choose, so his decision to kill people doesn’t affect their choices. I would argue that it does. But even so, I then want to know why God would choose to kill some people who will never repent and not others…
Seems kinda strange.
And in response to your whole levels of heaven thing… I’m gonna get a little more technical than most people reading this will probably know about Mormon theology. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you know the religion relatively well.
So two equally good people live their lives. They do good things, they are good and moral people. They die. The Mormon one will go to the Celestial Kingdom. The non-Mormon one (who knows if they are religious or not… doesn’t really matter) gets the chance to hear the gospel but rejects it. Even though the non-Mormon person is a very good person, because they do not believe the LDS church to be true, then they go to a lower kingdom of heaven. Do not get the opportunity to have spirit children. Do not get exaltation. Do not become like God.
Just doesn’t sit right with me…
John C
@Question…
Most “christians” remain in the flesh…never piercing the veil…never going on to maturity. Never attaining to the full measure of the stature of Christ…you are not alone sir in this regard. This is most professing “christian’s experience. Obviously you had a “religious” experience…I’m not implying you were insincere, just that most never penetrate the garment of flesh and attain the high ground. It costs us EVERYTHING to do this and few are willing to pay the price.
What is the core “christian” experience? Its a walk “in the spirit”…what does this mean…to walk in the high places, to be caught up in the whirlwind, the place of high fruitfulness and light, where the brush of the spirit is ever swirling in the light of God’s spirit within??
No former “christian” who deny’ Christ has EVER been there, if you had you would not be able to deny Him altogether. My experience is not a traditional, religious one. I am no better than you sir, only not satisfied with the status quo…most uncontent with a mere”religious” experience.
This is why I say, no scream aloud to all who have ears to hear….THERE IS MORE, THERE IS A LIFE.
JC
I see you still refuse to answer the question. I am finished with this. Enjoy your mumbo jumbo.
Jesus died for our sins.
So all of us (including non Christians) will go to heaven?
If not, Jesus died in vain then.
What Jesus only loves Christians and died for the Christians only?
Nice conversing with you guys, thanks for the replies. I’m back to lurk mode, I’ll be sure to come out and give a few cents ever so often though. Gotta clear the drugs outta my system via sleeping first. I’ve been reading this from 1.30am till an hour earlier, which is 5am. Even though under the initial effects of the drugs I was awake, I’m feeling the toll of drowsiness that it brings now. Gotta sleep. Good Nights (Mornings?)
“So two equally good people live their lives. They do good things, they are good and moral people. They die. The Mormon one will go to the Celestial Kingdom. The non-Mormon one (who knows if they are religious or not… doesn’t really matter) gets the chance to hear the gospel but rejects it. Even though the non-Mormon person is a very good person, because they do not believe the LDS church to be true, then they go to a lower kingdom of heaven. Do not get the opportunity to have spirit children. Do not get exaltation. Do not become like God.
Just doesn’t sit right with me…”
The non-Mormon one doesn’t know the secret handshake that lets you get through the veil.
@Ty
Good point. Good thing those are on the internet these days. Or I can get my boyfriend to teach me them. He went through the temple.
Free will is like slavery.
You have free will. But if you don’t do what I say I will punish you by beating you up or in God’s case, sending you to hell!
@JC
No former “christian” who deny’ Christ has EVER been there, [i.e. "walking in the spirit"] if you had you would not be able to deny Him altogether.
I’m sorry JC, but that’s utter tripe, and I would have thought you of all people – with your anti-religious, I love everybody stance – wouldn’t stoop to this. It’s just the “You can’t have been a real christian if you’re now an atheist” gambit all over again, slightly reworded.
I can only speak authoritatively for myself, though I suspect at least some of the other ex-christians on here will agree: I WAS a born-again christian thanks to Billy Graham, had a number of religious awakenings, received the holy spirit, exhibited the fruits and the gifts including speaking in tongues, used to fall down in the spirit, played in the church band, led house-groups… Personally, I now put most of that down to auto-suggestion. I was convinced I was saved but I was deluded, because I now think it’s all so much stuff and nonsense, mainly because of scientific argument. Nevertheless, I was fully involved heart and soul at the time, invested my all in following Jesus.
You weren’t there, and you’ve never met me. So it’s unfair of you to pronounce judgment on how “real” my experience was to me at the time, likewise other ex-christians. Think what you like by all means, but don’t come on here and tell me what I did or did not believe/experience/feel – that’s just damn rude.
Meanwhile, you’re still not addressing the topic of this post which involves the bibical god killing his children. You’re just trotting out catchphrases and doggerel and frankly, it’s boring.
John C., @ Boomslang…..”why the obsession with what is NOT in the true offer & message?”
Let’s be clear—are you saying that there is absolutely, positively, unequivocately *NO* penalties, which include – but are not limited to – physical and/or psychological harm, for either, a) my inability to accept your invisible friend’s “offer”, or b) my refusal to accept your invisible friend’s “offer”?
To lessen the chance of equivocal (bullsh*t) answers—-your position is that there is NO such thing/concept as “hell” in the “True Message™” of “True Christianity™”?
Yes, or no?
Continues….”If you spent half the time & energy learning the details of the true offer that you currently spend musing otherwise then you would be much further along by now dear sir.”
‘Cart-before-horse. First and foremost, I’m looking for any indication that “Christ” has a referent in reality, before I worry about which religious zealot’s version I’ll adopt. I would no sooner simply take your word for it, than I would the Mormon’s word, the Scientologist’s word, or the Muslim’s word. I need objective evidence, John C….. I cannot make it any clearer. I simply do not believe that you are this obtuse, which is why I suspect you are troll.
To give benefit of doubt(again)—-I previously asked you a very pointed and pertinent question about my admitted INABILITY to believe what I do NOT find believable(and you recently admit it as “unbelievable”, as well, BTW)
Let’s review: I cannot believe on “faith”…… that is, without lying to myself. If your biblegod is “Omniscient”, then surely it would know if I’m being genuine, or not. This, again, creates a quagmire for you, me, and your “spiritual” philosophy(if true). Question: How does your biblegod handle those who cannot believe?…notice, not *will not* believe…but *CANNOT*.
BTW, remember, your biblegod was supposedly making physical appearances all over kingdom come just a few thousand years ago, thus, giving those people like me the necessary evidence to “believe”. Why won’t your biblegod simply appear? Many “souls” are presumably at stake, yet, your biblegod seems content to let his bloviating “followers” do the convincing, and everybody sees how well that’s working, don’t they?(rhetorical)
Even the US Government, a worldly institution, recognizes that decisions made while under duress, or threat of violence, are not considered freely made.
Just try and get a contract to hold up in court that the person signed at gunpoint.
@Boomslang…
Hmmm…maybe He is with you now, you dont recognize Him. Its happened before on the road to Emmaus. Was it because He came in the flesh? God in the flesh? Why did they seek to kill Him Boomslang? Was it for all the good deeds He did, or perhaps was it because He, being a mere man made Himself out to be God? What does Psalm 82:6 say?
After the resurrection, his own disciples walked with Him on the road to Emmaus and didnt recognize who they were talking with…sometimes we don’t either.
He is not far from any of us…in fact:
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, THOUGH HE BE NOT FAR FROM ANY ONE OF US;
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Quoting scripture: That will totally convince a group of atheists well versed in biblical criticism.
Next you should try quoting Deepak Chopra to James Randi.
@Professor…
I do not mean to offend…it has been my experience that when a “believer” does not receive what his heart is after…the full, spiritual depth of experiencing the “holy of holy’s” within then he will often discard the Christ along wth the bath water so to speak.
Its a progressive revelation, a “glory to glory” experience, nothing like what we “see” in churches, relgious circles, etc, its all an inside job. After all, the kingdom of heaven is within us. Honestly, most give up before entering this high place of the spirit.
I respect you and your experience, I am just saying THERE IS MORE because I have personally experienced this “more”, this life.
Take care Prof…
JC
Boy, this John C. does not stray far from the mold, does he? Self-righteous babble interspersed with Bible verses (and exactly WHO is that supposed to convince on a blog wherein most of the regular posters are, at best, skeptics who don’t find proof-texting persuasive in the slightest?) and not even half-baked pronouncements about “There is a life.”
Yes, and the Cylons Have A Plan.
Maybe god’s plan is exactly the same as the cylons:
Kill 90% of us, have sex with the rest.
@Boomslang…
Yes, I agree…I see your “faith” quandry. Now, what is the remedy? The solution?
You wouldnt believe it if I told you…in fact, I already have!
JC
@Roger-
How can I be self righteous when my (own) righteousness is as filthy rags (IS 64) so I have placed my faith in His righteousness, His beauty, not my own.
We dont come to God on the basis of our own righteousness…but His. God Himself must do even this for us.
Love, what’s it good for?
John C may be unaggressive and well meant, and have had some experience that he interprets as a religious experience, which, as Daniel had pointed out, you can choose how interpret, and your emotions and beliefs about it are nothing more than your emotions and beliefs.
But I really agree every time words others have supplied about his argument style: “tripe”, “mumbo jumbo” and “babble”.
It says almost nothing, conveys no reason, and convinces no one.
Save the damned Biblehumping, John and answer a damn question with something that resembles logic.
John C., @Boomslang…
“Yes, I agree…I see your ‘faith’ quandry. Now, what is the remedy? The solution?”
No, you’ve misunderstood(i.e…you’ve deliberately, and dishonestly evaded the question). You see, I’m asking *you* for the “remedy”/”solution”, and you “answer” me with *questions*….. and now even silly riddles, as seen here……
“You wouldnt believe it if I told you…in fact, I already have!”
Good grief, you’ve “told” us pages upon pages of “things”. It would facilitate conversation greatly if you would simply repeat your answer, so I don’t have to dig back through all of the pseudo-spiritual jargon for this “answer”…..an answer that, according to you, I wouldn’t believe it anyway(being the mind-reader you are)
Again, how do I keep intellectual honesty, and “faith”, simultaniously? ‘Listening.
___________________________________________
Previously, me, to John C….
“To lessen the chance of equivocal (bullsh*t) answers—-your position is that there is NO such thing/concept as ‘hell’ in the ‘True Message™’ of ‘True Christianity™’?
Yes, or no? Jesus….it’s multiple choice, for crying out loud.
Exactly!
As long as this is structured into Christianity, “free will”, and the non-choice of “you have choice: my way or the hell way”, and the verses about perfect love casting out fear, are bullshit.
That’s slang for lies, false, saying one thing and doing another, hypocrisy, or contra to fact.
Slightly off topic, but I have a question for posters who have been here longer than I have.
Do the theists ever answer the question of evidence? I assume these people actually have something they consider evidence to back their beliefs. They never seem to want to share it. (It may not be actual evidence, but there must be something that convinces them god exists.)
Maybe I wrongly assumed that people would be interested in an honest debate on the subject, but I find it very strage that the theists don’t even want to answer the question.
@Boom…
Let’s dial it down a bit…I know it makes for a good show in front of all your like-minded colleagues but…you must admit that you and I have had numerous previous discussions where many, diverse topics were discussed, no? You made your points, I shared my views.
At that time, I said ??what?? regarding your baited question?
You know, and I know I have addressed this previously.
No grandstanding, showmanship allowed! lol
Why not give the true message & offer its due, equal time since you spend so much energy elsewhere if you are sincerely interested like you seem to be???
Bill: “(…..but there must be something that convinces them god exists.)”
Personal experience(“feelings”) and “Divine”revelation are largely what they offer as “evidence”. Unfortunately, sometimes in conjunction with these two resources, they also utilize repetition…i.e…unceasingly asserting their beliefs over and over and over and over and over, as if that somehow makes them “true”…. a la Christian guest(troll) “John C.”
“No former “christian” who deny’ Christ has EVER been there, [i.e. "walking in the spirit"] if you had you would not be able to deny Him altogether.”
*ring ring* *ring ring* Hello? Oh, hi, Mr. Scotsman….. uh huh, lemme check…
Hey, JC, True Scotsman is on the phone and wants to know if you’d like to talk to him…
***
Interesting bible verse o’ the day:
Exodus 32: 14: Then the Lord changed his mind from the evil, which He threatened to do unto His people.
(Moses prayed to get Israel out of total destruction after the lord caught them worshipping a golden calf)
Apparently, God CAN do evil!
@ Boom
“Personal experience(”feelings”) and “Divine”revelation are largely what they offer as “evidence”. Unfortunately, sometimes in conjunction with these two resources, they also utilize repetition…i.e…unceasingly asserting their beliefs over and over and over and over and over, as if that somehow makes them “true”…. a la Christian guest(troll) “John C.””
I suspected as much – but I can’t even get honest answers along those lines. Maybe it’s just me. Thanks for the response.
As for JC. I suggest that everyone ignore. It’s impossible to understand his point anyway, so why feed the troll?
Bill –
Do the theists ever answer the question of evidence? I assume these people actually have something they consider evidence to back their beliefs. They never seem to want to share it. (It may not be actual evidence, but there must be something that convinces them god exists.)
I think most theists don’t have well thought out arguments. They don’t run into articulate non-believers often. However on one extreme you have the ones like John C who are self referential and deeply mystical. On the other end there are the tight asses who think they can nail everything down with (convoluted) arguments. We seem to get quite a few more of the generally incoherent here.
Troll is old guys…you used that one on day one…speaking of repetition.
I’m really not a troll…I suppose that means one that patrols sites, injecting his beliefs, trying to convert folks? This is the only “A” site I have ever visited…isnt that…special? lol (sorry, couldnt resist).
I have stuck around (much to your displeasure) in hopes of getting to know some of you, having interesting discussions, etc.
I’ve had a few…just a few.
JC-
I’m cool with a message of love. I have no objections to that. BUT the bible never brought me freedom. As a woman, I found that I was suppressed in church. They quoted Paul at me (and I use the word AT purposefully here). I was told what a “good christian woman” should be– one that sits down and shuts the hell up. No freedom there! Even if I was a man, though, the church (and the bible specifically) does not offer intellectual freedom. I had to go to university to get that!
Be nice or I’ll have to start speaking in spirit riddles again…just ask Aor how much he loved those in the early days…lol
Actually, I’m getting a little dry these days, spending too much time with you guys, not enough with Pappa, need some “fresh manna”. Need to get re-attached to the true “vine”, I’m running low on grape juice, lol.
I know it would break your collective hearts but now that I think about it…a break is prob warranted. How bout I give you guys the rest of Feb w/o me to kick around? Could you stand me being gone that long? lol
But seriously…you want me to take a break? (sorry, no I wont go away forever) just tell me so…and I will do it if I hear back from enough of you…
JC-
Let me repeat my question from before:
How are we to get at the true message other than by reading the bible? Then, how are we cherrypick through its inconsistencies?
JC
Please don’t speak in riddles. Please be clear…
John C: “At that time, I said ??what?? regarding your baited question?”
The topic of “hell” is NOT a “baited question”, John C. If you have/know “the Truth”, there is no reason to withhold it, right? To refresh your memory, you said the topic of “hell” was “irrelevent”, in the past. At that time I explained in great detail how it *is* “relevent” to this discussion, and also to my ability/inability to believe Christian doctrine.
Continues…..”You know, and I know I have addressed this previously.”
- If you refer to my question about “free will”, and how I cannot choose to believe on “faith” what I cannot honestly believe—to my knowledge, you haven’t answer that. If I’m wrong, simply refer me to the post that answers it, and I’ll make a public apology.
- If you refer to my inquiry of “hell”—-to my knowledge, you have never, not once, answered, unequivocally, my “yes or no”, multiple-choice question pertaining to this.
Previously, me, to John C….
“To lessen the chance of equivocal (bullsh*t) answers—-your position is that there is NO such thing/concept as ‘hell’ in the ‘True Message™’ of ‘True Christianity™’?”
Yes…or no?
LRA-
Yea, thats a shame. I found that churches are like pools, some are at certain depths and others…well they are very shallow. I would remind you that real church is…inward. Christ IN you is the mystery of the ages…thats where the true fellowship takes place…we are the garden where God dwells..we choose which tree we live from, the tree of Self or the tree of Life (Christ) within.
Truth is always liberating, not binding. Love is the only remaining law. All others fall naturally under it like branches on a tree.
Keep on lovin’ girl! You have much to offer this messed up world, yes you do!
JC
AHH!! You just cracked me up, John!
It took us a while to somewhat understand him. I tried to help by suggesting that he not write with so many “quotes” and random CAPITAL LETTERS (you’re still doing it John, when you get excited), but it takes some practice. It’s also very commendable that he has stuck around longer than any theist I’ve seen.
You add to the atmosphere, John, that’s for sure.
Sorry about your job situation, btw.
Yes, John, but what about Jesus’ words in the bible? Are they reliable? If so, Jesus tells us in Mark (the oldest gospel) that hell is a place of fire and is eternal and is a place into which people get thrown. The gospel of John is the newest gospel and looks quite different from the other gospels. It has A LOT of GREEK thought in it (ie Logos theory… logos means word). The message about LOVE comes from the GREEK concept of PHILO (love of) SOPHIA (wisdom). Plato explored this EXTENSIVELY in both the Symposium and in the Republic, which were written 400-500 years BEFORE the gospels. Shouldn’t I put stock in PLATO then, rather than JESUS?
Great post, Daniel. There’s no way that I’m wading through the 300+ comments to catch up with the conversation. I can see by the last few that John C is doing his usual evasive dance. Though I have to give JC credit, he’s using -less- intentionally annoying text gimicks (elipses, parentheses inside of words, etc.).
Looks like he’s still refusing to make firm, approachable statements into which a reasonable person might sink a few hooks in an attempt to understand and/or refute the points. But, then, that would mean that JC would no longer be able to wear the comfortable costume of the wise monk who makes vague statements that can be claimed to mean anything and nothing at the same time.
JC- are you also rejecting Pauline doctrine?
John C: “I would remind you that real church is…inward.”
That’s odd….I don’t know of any human beings who’ve actually ingested the ancient manuscript that you continually quote from. My goodness, that’s got to make reading the bible a tedious physical challenge.
Previously, me, to John C….
“To lessen the chance of equivocal (bullsh*t) answers—-your position is that there is NO such thing/concept as ‘hell’ in the ‘True Message™’ of ‘True Christianity™’?”
?
Baka-
It’s very post structuralist of John, isn’t it?
@LRA…
No, the bible itself is not the complete guide…but rather the inner light is our intended guide. The early “christians” (they were called little christ’s) had neither the NT or the OT (although the OT was available in the temples and spoken from memory in the homes, believers had some, occasional access to various NT letters, but rarely). So how did these early christians…”turn the whole world upside down” Acts 17:6 What was the secret of their power, where did their confidence come from?
What did they have then? They had the spirit of truth (within) who leads us and guides us into all truth, and so can we. The offer hasn’t changed. One of our problems is that we naturally (wrongly) associate church buildings, Pope’s, denominations, etc with God. None of these are part of the true message & offer of Christ within but a very poor substitute. I will be in you & you will be in me…John 14:20
Its like this…who is Jesus? He is who we really were created to be, the offspring of God who is…Love. He had to come to remind us of our original paternity in the Father.
When you see Him in His true light, you also see your true identity…He say’s “OUR Father, who is in heaven”. What does that make us? Jesus is our big-brother in the family of God. He is beautiful (in character the spitting image of His Father even saying when you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father, quite a claim huh?).
The true Christian life/experience is a Oneness with Christ, in God…its internal not external in nature but we tend to be so outwardly focused we miss out on the true, inner life within. We get re-grafted into the original, One tree…of life. Our roots grow deep in the soil of His love. We discover our true selves, Christ within. We are just containers for His presence.
To answer your question…we believe…we receive…He literally takes up residence within our spirit and we begin to “hear” another’s voice (not the one you were born with, rather the one you received) who leads us and guides us (just like He said He would) for then you are His child and we know that “He that keeps Israel (that’s us…long story bear with me) never slumbers or sleeps”.
The internal drawing, woo’ing of the spirit that so many here like to mock…is truly “deep calling unto deep, spirit (of God calling to our spirit)…He say’s “Adam, where are you? Where has my son/daughter gone? Just like He did in the garden after the betrayal, our departure from innocence. This is why I say the true offer & message are not comprehended because we dont remember..what we lost…get it? I am not trying to be evasive…think about it.
Listen to your heart…which is your true…you. When His spirit is united to ours…its beautiful, its life itself, its restoration of our original nature…God men and women.
Know ye not that ye are…gods??? Psalm 82:6 Of the ancient root, stem of Jesse.
We are the Garden…this is the big secret.
We are “transplanted” from a wild vineyard into a heavenly (spiritual) vineyard in Christ who is…the tree of life.
McBlog…
Thx…thats the nicest thing anyone has said here to me all day…I will treasure it…and you guys.
Take care Mcb..
LRA…
No, I’m not rejecting Pauline “doctrine” as you call it. But what if, instead of external print, it was more like…internal blue…print?
A new nature (His) within us. Christ in us, as us????
Now we’re making progress LRA…thx
JC-
You said: “They had the spirit of truth (within) who leads us and guides us into all truth, and so can we.”
This is PLATO’s doctrine of ANAMNESIS (remembering the truth that is written on our souls)
SOCRATES was the (fictional) guide- he is associated with moon imagery (reflecting light). So Jesus is just another SOCRATES (read the Symposium and the Republic… you’ll see what I’m talking about).
PLATO advocated Eleusinean mystery cults. They believed in a god who DIED and was RESURRECTED. They believed in SECRET TRUTHS. They believed that LOVE was the key to getting close to god.. LOVE of WISDOM, aka PHILO SOPHIA.
So, as far as I can tell, Christianity is just a JEWISH ELEUSINEAN MYSTERY CULT!!!
Also, The GREEKS believed that the architecture of reality was the LOGOS, the WORD..
In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with god and the WORD was god.
That is GREEK through and through.
So, just for clarity-
When Jesus is called “Son of Man” he is Socrates…
When he is called “Son of God” he is Dionysus.
There’s a reason the NT is written in GREEK!
JC- surely you’re not willing to worship GREEK gods?
So, when Paul tells women to sit down and shut up, I’m supposed to internalize that? (Or it is already internal in me?)
LRA…
Did “Greece and Greek” or Plato pre-date…the Eternal One? Christ was not ever…born.
Any reference portending toward truth, generally or specifically is derived from Truth…Himself.
Yes, I am familiar with Platonic thinking, personally preferred the Neoplatonic writings and thought of a lesser known “philosopher” Plotinus but I have not received my “inner life” from either…rather what/who Christ promised….the spirit of Truth residing within is the promise we are so needful of.
JC
JC- I’m not trying to be difficult, I just think these are REALLY important questions.
So why be Christian, then? Why not be Eleusinean?
You will not get meaningful answers from John C. You just won’t. That stuff he’s already said? That’s it. That’s what he’s got.
If you are familiar with the pre-christian roots of late Hebrew, early Christian theology, then you’re already way ahead of him.
LRA…
We are all guilty of what I call “majoring on the minors and minoring on the majors”. Whole denominations have started and ended because someone becomes obsessed with one verse as opposed to the whole…this is the case here.
What did I share with you the other day regarding male/female symbolism?
Genders are in the physical realm…but remember “In Christ there is no longer male & female, Jew or Greek, but all are one in Christ” Galatian’s 3:28
Those are the words you need to hear, to meditate on to begin to get free…truth always sets us FREE. You shall KNOW the truth and the truth SHALL set you free!!
This gender issue seems to be a real hindrance to you, a stumbling block if you know what I mean and the spirit in which I share it…its a recurring theme I hear from you often and you need to know the truth in liberty! In love!
Previously, me, to John C…
“To lessen the chance of equivocal (bullsh*t) answers—-your position is that there is NO such thing/concept as ‘hell’ in the ‘True Message™’ of ‘True Christianity™’?”
‘Still waiting.
I, and at least one other person on this thread, want to know from a “True Christian™” whether or not there are consequences/reprecussions for those who cannot/will not accept the “True Offer™” on “faith”, and if those consequences involve “hell”, as “hell” is portrayed in Christian doctrine(or some variation of it).
Please oblige. Thanks.
LRA…
I asked you…who came first…Greece or God? Christ was never…born…He is…Eternal.
I have a thought…just a thought…maybe you only thought you already knew Him, what He was all about?? Maybe you have some pre-conceived notions (like we all do) that need reconsidering??
Please dont get upset with me…I’m just asskin’
Oops…TYPO…I meant Askin, not Asskin…ugg
JC-
I’m trying to wrap my head around it.
So Paul was only concerned with the physical when he ordered women to be inferior? Because as far as I can tell, he was giving specific instructions as to how people should conduct themselves.
What is the spiritual symbolism here?
Hmmm… women are inferior to men who are inferior to god.
Women are flesh, men are spirit, and god is mind.
Women are only flesh. I am a woman. I am only flesh.
That about right?
And I’m not “stuck” on this. It has very real implications for me.
If we assume that god is eternal, then god came first. If we consider that christianity is a social construction (as I have alluded to in my previous post) then it is clear that Plato’s version of things is preferable because he at least encourages the DIALECTIC process of asking questions. Christianity doesn’t. I’ll stick with PLATO.
@Boomslang…
You can know everything I know…I am nobody special (i’m sure you guys will agree…lol)
I don’t know about Hell Boom…I really dont. Not trying to be evasive…just dont have a true and complete understanding of darkness, only light. There are some (ultimate reconciliation’ers) out there who believe there is a grand plan to redeem all…one day regardless of believing or not. They point to various OT scriptures and one in the NT (Acts) that appear to support their claims.
In this way, some believe those who did not receive the King while occupying their “earth garments” lol will be relegated to being mere “subjects” in the heavenly Kingdom as opposed to “citizens” of the King. I dont claim to know those things, they are not nearly as interesting to me as Christ living within me..now, daily.
I’m crazy in love with Him, and He with me…or I’m just plain…crazy! ha
RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE, JOY in the Holy spirit.
There is a life…there is more.
JC-
You call ‘em stumbling blocks… I call ‘em REASONs.
@McBlog…
As far as me “stickin around”…love doesn’t leave…love never leaves us or forsakes us He just…loves us in spite of His love being unrequited.
Here’s the definition of unrequited…I know, you already know but its helpful to my point…
———————————————————————–
Wiki…Unrequited love is love that is not openly reciprocated, even though reciprocation is usually deeply desired. The beloved may or may not be aware of the admirer’s deep affections.
———————————————————————–
In this case, we are the beloved, He is the God who wants to be…loved in return!
So do Dionysus and Persephone. Persephone even decended into hell and ascended on the third month.
LRA…
You are cool with me…you are passionate, inquisitive, caring and a true seeker…I am no better than you are…prob much worse…lol
Oops, sorry…I didnt mean to get you in trouble with your colleagues by saying something nice (and true) about…you! Quick, go ahead…say something mean back to me…hurry before anyone notice’s my compliment!!!
LOL
LRA…
Yea, I know…Sophia (greek for wisdom).
Paul says that he wished for the spirit of wisdom & revelation to fall on us…Amen to that.
Well, if Sophia (a feminine word and deity) is the best then why aren’t women the leaders of men?
(not to sound like a FemiNazi)
D’oh! Just proved Godwin’s Law!!!!
LRA…
There is no more gender (Gal 3:28)…its Christ (within) that we honor, obey…not man or woman per se. Its all about how much of Him we have residing on the inside.
Some men use “power” or scripture (wrongly) to dominate a woman…this is not God honoring behaviour!!??
Love is the only remaining law.
You mean some men… like PAUL?
As pointed out by Guilty earlier:
1 Timothy 2:11-15:”A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent…”
Why didn’t Paul just say, “You guys really don’t get the message of Jesus do you? Shame on you! You need to realize that the women in your church who are speaking up are doing so because Jesus was sent to give all life! That means them too! Stop being idiots! We’ve told you that you can eat pork now. So guess what? Women can talk out in church now! O, ye of little faith!!!!”
So Paul himself doesn’t honor god.
LRA…
Now you’re resorting to cynicism…thats ok. He was in the culture of the day…just like you and I are…in today’s culture.
Its a progressive thing…Q…here’s a good example…why focus on that instead of Gal 3:28??? or at least in balance?
Are you “majoring on the minors” LRA??? huh?? lol
Ugg, double Ugg lol
JC-
How is this a minor issue for me as a woman? When a document/doctrine insists on my oppression how is that minor?
It’s minor to you because you are a man! It’s not minor to me!
So I’ll ask you again…
which doctrines should I accept or reject as I cherry pick through the bible?
Let me guess… LOVE? I don’t need the bible for that. I have secular humanism!
You’re right…its your choice LRA, its called free will. We would all be mere “Godbots” w/o this human…right.
Sometimes Love Himself is speaking and we dont even know it.
Sometimes…
Put more succinctly, are you a relativist or a foundationalist? Which doctrines are relative and which are foundational? How are we to know.
I am neither…am merely “of the root” that ancient tree.
The Lord hath looked down from heaven upon the descendents of Adam, to see if there be any that understand and seek God. Ps 14:2
Life of the ages…
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. In other words you have gone so far as to acknowledge God’s sovereignty in judging the world but you are a foolish enough to believe that your concept of justice will prevent your own judgment.
Jesus is perfect theology
If the fear of the Lord is the beginnning (but just the beginning) of wisdom, than the love of the Lord is the end-product of wisdom.
Dave,
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. In other words you have gone so far as to acknowledge God’s sovereignty in judging the world but you are a foolish enough to believe that your concept of justice will prevent your own judgment.”
Scary stuff…judgment, foolishness, threats.
You’ve got John C talking about love and Dave talking about fear…put the two of them together, and you’ve got religion…Presto!
Dave, really,
Wisdom tells us that much of the Bible is internally inconsistent, don’t mesh with known facts about our world, and isn’t even ethical.
By the way, how exactly have I acknowledged the sovereignty of a being who’s existence I do not believe in?
Do you, Dave, acknowledge the sovereignty of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
What? No? But why?
What is your standard?
See, wisdom tells you that other gods’ existence is unlikely. But what can it tell you about your own beliefs?
Speaking of judgment and wisdom….
@Tele-
Not your usual kinda post there Tele…I hope it didn’t give you a headache…like your little Icon pic…lol.
But seriously, how does one get a graphic like that next to your name???? I’m kinda new to this whole bloggin thing…I’m not so hi-tech ya know….help me out would ya?
Is it somethin’ Daniel has to do??
Thx
John C,
Go to gravatar.com and they’ll take you through the whole process. I don’t know how it works, but it works! Almost all the websites I go to, that little picture is there next to my name. Pretty cool.
It also automatically registers you for WordPress, just as a cautionary note.
I like my avatar…I’m sorry if you gives you a headache, but I’m keeping it.
John C,
It wasn’t my usual kind of post because Dave just said something without thinking and then will probably never come back here.
Typical hit-and-runner, ugh. Makes me mad, haha.
Thx…and I like your Icon, its appropriate for our discussions here!
Now I have to decide what kinda Icon I want?? I’m sure I could ask the forum, bet they would have some interesting feedback for me…lol.
JC- You said “If the fear of the Lord is the beginnning (but just the beginning) of wisdom,”
Plato says “Philosophy (the love of wisdom) begins in wonder [enthaumasein- Greek root of enthusiasm]”
I’ll take wonder/enthusiasm over fear any day!
LRA…
The “fear” of the Lord is widely understood to mean the awe…some reverence of God. Think of it like this…we only fear Him when we dont really know Him…as we get to know Him, His true nature He translates that fear into…love. He’s beautiful that way.
JC
I suspected dingdong to be a kid given the low maturity level and glorious lack of sophistication or perhaps a foreigner given the atrocious English.
You were right about all those
and the “killer blow” shows my immaturity, yes. I have learnt not to be arrogant so thank you for the lesson.
I’ll try not to argue like I have before.
NB I am not trying to persuade ANYBODY that God is real, I’m just expressing my views that I PERSONALLY, believe that there is a God and that Christianity is not a man-made thing.
I have read a portion of replies after my stupid (and I apologies for my “killer blow” again, that made me look like an idiot [to you, Im an idiot anyway, but i'll carry on]) So I just wish to respond to those I’ve read, if I’ve repeated what others have said, I apologies for that as well.
To all those who said my argument is fundamentally flawed, well, if I was thinking logically, I’d agree with you. How can God be real when there is no evidence for Him to exist? What is sin? Where is the evidence for Heaven or in fact Hell? If I was an atheist, I’d be thinking about these things logically and I will “believe” what I know. i.e. I see that clouds are floating in the sky, therefore I believe clouds can float. You must have evidence so that you can “believe” what you see. (this is a sidenote to all the physics people, I’d appreciate it if you can explain HOW clouds DO float in the sky)
If I was an atheist, I’d take everything in a logical way. Can we agree on this one thing?
Well, what atheists takes as empirical evidence, Christians do the same, and here is where the disagreement will start to arise. Atheists only believe in physical evidence i.e. I can’t see God, I can’t see any evidence that this event recorded in the Bible happened, so God can’t exist because there is no evidence for it.
Christians however, do not wholly rely on physical evidence. What we do is we try to understand and know as much as we can about God, and what we cannot understand or grasp, we have to make it up with faith. That is what Christianity can be about. That does not mean Christianity is totally irrational, we are rational people, if I jump of a 10 storey building, I’d know I’m very likely to die. But we believe in what we cannot grasp. We cannot understand the idea of “God”, humans are not clever enough, or in fact, I believe humans do not have the capabilities to know a being as “God” (just as we, living in a 3-D world, cannot understand or even just imagine what it is like to live in a 2-D world, or 4-D world).
1) your logic and evidence are not complete as you do not know everything
2) Atheists disprove the possibility that this is the only world that there is.
To Bill:
I think sin cannot be defined, just as energy cannot be defined. But like energy, we can predict what it does etc etc. Sin, basically ruins people’s lives and keep them from living an abundant life. Sin is something that is evil, stemmed from evil intentions. Sins are listed in the Bible such as adultery, theft, murder etc etc.
I’m not here to prove those three points you originally mentioned. I am not here to prove God exists, because as I have said even earlier, no one can KNOW God exist. I don’t KNOW God exist. If I knew God existed, then there won’t be a need to believe.
You have also said that God is something that man made up to fill in the unexplained things and someone else also said that Christianity change itself to fit with new laws through “revelations”.
1) People do fill up unexplained things with myths such as Dragons and Gods etc etc. But because people do this, does not mean that a real God does not exist. There is a God, I believe, that has always been there, before these myths and supernatural.
Remember that Christians do not have physical evidence, but instead it is empirical one, in the sense that it is a collection of experiences and observations made by the individual (so it is specific to each person) that lead them to believe in God. There is no “general” “evidence” that is true for all Christians, because as we Christians believe, God communicate with us in a direct way, different from any others.
I such an atheist website, all I hope to do yesterday and today, is not to persuade you to believe in God, because you might just die from laughter, but instead, I am just trying to ask of you to keep this possibility that God exist. Just a possibility.
P.S. I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion, I am sorry again for my youthfulness and anything that lead from that, I respect your views of an atheist and I hold your views equal to my own, and I hold each one of you equal to myself. Allow me to end on this note (and this is totally MY OWN view): Despite our difference in opinion, there are similarities that we should focus on, such as we all want what is best for each other and we want to progress forward for the better. So instead of trying to convince others about the existence or non-existence of God (let us just say that it is possible that God exist and it is also possible that God does not exist and you can believe in the former or the latter), we should instead persuade this effort into someone that will help the world we live in today and which is aid those who are truly in need.
ding dong-
Since you are a kid, I’ll go easy on you.
I’m going to assume that you will go to college.
There, you will actually learn a whole lot that you won’t necessarily learn in high school because school boards are notorious for “cleaning up” educational material.
For instance, you might learn that liquids and gases share a property state referred to as colloid. This is why clouds, and smoke, and little solids of protein in milk all “float.”
You will learn that energy has been defined and well defined as it has many forms. Heat is a form on infrared light, for instance.
You will learn that the evidence FOR evolution is absolutely overwhelming and that there is no valid “controversy” in scientific circles over the age of the earth or the common descent of species (the only controversy is the kafuffle the ID people are making, and that is political in nature, not scientific)
You might learn (if you take a cultural anthropology class or a history of the middle east class) that christianity, like ALL world religions are SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED (scroll just a few posts above this and you’ll see my comments on Eleusinean mystery cults and their influence on christianity- especially the book of John and some Pauline doctrine.) And that there is EVIDENCE to support this claim.
You are welcome to your views. But understand that a view is only as strong as the REASONS that support it! Most people have flimsy reasons to support a christian world view. People who support a naturalistic world view have the whole world behind them. And you are correct that the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven, that is not the issue here. The issue here is christainty. If you read this blog long enough, you’ll hear some very good REASONS why people reject it (rejecting Christianity does not necessarily entail rejecting god, just the christian god.)
sorry for typos, it’s early here
@ LRA
As far as Pauline doctrine goes, he is alluding to what many Christians say. When she is one with Christ, a woman will enjoy submitting to church/male authority. They will do it naturally. He just won’t say this directly. That’s what he means when he says love comes first, then the law follows. Once we have Jesus love, we will do everything the Bible tells us to do as we lose ourselves in submission to God.
________
John C talks like he is parroting gnosticism but I have seen no evidence that he has unorthodox views. That’s why he won’t commit to the doctrines people here object the most about, like hell. Is Jesus is the ony way to heaven? When I asked him about that, he side stepped it too. But on the non-core issues, he will commit. It’s just the touchy subjects he goes all vague on. Probably so people will keep on listening to him.
I don’t understand the uberfascination with John myself. He isn’t saying much that is new. It might not be straight up Christian literalism but I don’t see that he is saying anything inconsistent with orthodox Christian theology.
Cello
I disagree with your comments on women. I think that some people are natural leaders and some people are happy not to lead, regardless of gender. Your views on women as wanting to submit is akin to views on how natural it is for a slave to want to submit (which the bible also says). If you are a friend of slavery, then by all means keep stating that women should submit. I, for one, am no friend to oppression.
@ LRA,
Sorry, I must have not expressed myself very well. What I was trying to say is that IMO, John C. is expressing a very traditional view on scripture. That once a believer submits to the will of God, he or she will naturally do what the Bible teaches. Thus, his comment that love comes before the law. He never truly does away with the law, he just makes it secondary. Me, personally, I don’t hold scripture as any kind of authority and I don’t disagree with what you wrote.
Cello- Sorry for the misunderstanding then!!!
Enough of your online temper tantrums.
Your momma’s calling you!
@ King of Dingdong
I appreciate the effort. Apologies excepted. We all act very immature from time to time when we are young. Hopefully we can have a decent conversation.
Here are a few things that I asked myself:
1. Is the Bible literal?
Even when I was a Christian, I did not believe that it was entirely literal. Then, one must decide which parts are literal and which parts are not. My rationale was, the Holy Spirit will guide me and confirm which parts are important. Of course, I later realized that it was my church teachings and my own subjective judgment that was telling me which parts of the Bible were important. Also, if one has a proper understanding of evolution and other subjects, it is impossible to take Genesis and other sections literally. Even my Christian relatives believe in evolution. I don’t know if that’s typical.
2. Can the Bible be trusted?
The Bible is supposed to be the inspired Word of God. It is supposed to be an authority on many spiritual things. But I found that it is internally inconsistent and conflicts with our understanding of the world as we know it, and that there just isn’t that much evidence for a lot of things depicted in the Bible.
3. What is the significance of other major religions besides Christianity?
This is the big question, I believe. When I studied other world religions, and examined how different religious traditions were a product of their culture and their society, I started to realize a few things.
Why didn’t I believe in other religions? Why did I believe in Christianity? What were my reasons for my beliefs?
I then realized that if all the other religions were of human origin, it was also likely that Christianity was of human origin. If natural explanations could account for other religions, could they also account for my religion? And then I did further investigating, and confirmed how unreliable the Bible is, and I started questioning many other tenets of the belief system, and that is partially how I got to where I am now, as an agnostic atheist (atheist primarily).
@ Sampsomonium
I like your idea of god as some kind of super alien but agian without any proof he might as well be a super kettle.
Also, you made several appeals to ‘fairness’
This is one of my pet dislikes / problems of the whole Christian mythology. IF we are here because god wanted to give us each ONE chance to do SOMETHING (worship Jesus, live a good life, be a Christian, what ever) then this opportunity has to be on offer for all. Anything less than this would be a completely pointless exercise. Yet babies die. For this system to work there would have to be some guaranteed, protected system that gives us each that chance to prove that SOMETHING (what ever that something may be). Clearly the system is broken and therefore a god originated system is pointless and given the attributes allocated to god the system could not break.
@ Andy Bird
Although I don’t believe it anymore, I can explain Mormon theology, since Sam appears to have disappeared.
The religion does supposedly allow for all people to have equal chance at hearing and accepting the gospel. If children die before they have a chance to be baptized (which happens at age 8 for those born into the religion), they are automatically saved. They do missionary work on earth to try and give everyone a chance at hearing the gospel, but for those who never hear it, there is a chance in the afterlife.
It’s a limbo-type stage, after Christ’s return, but before the big sorting into heaven and hell, during which every spirit will have the opportunity to hear and either accept or reject LDS teachings. Thus giving everyone the chance to make their own choices.
Does that make sense?
well that does at least make it a fairer system than the olde christian out look on things
Andy
@Cello & LRA….
Here is my original post regarding the deeper symbolism of the male & female gender’s….hardly an “orthodox” view:
————————————————————————
Consider the following when attempting to comprehend the true meaning of marriage in holy writ:
The soul (female aspect of our being) must be wholly subject to and wed to the spirit (male aspect of our being) just as it was in the beginning before its rebellious departure. It was Eve (soul) that demanded its independence from Adam (spirit) and brought upon man(kind) our current plight. In the beginning, Adam was not two, but one being having both male and female attributes being made in the image and likeness of God who is neither male nor female, but One. The fruit of the tree of independence brought death….separation from God.
When the soul is “under” it’s Lord (the spirit that is united to Christ within) then wholeness is once again restored to its original matrix…and the marriage (of the soul & spirit) is consummated.
This is the meaning of the words…and the two shall become one…again.
What we witness in the physical, a man and a woman “coming together”, being “one flesh” is a symbolic representation of our original state of being…one w/God as opposed to a duality in nature.
So, when you read these verses…this understanding of what Paul is saying, by the unction of the eternal spirit will be helpful…if we really want to know.
————————————————————————-
Now couple that w/the following verse from Gal 3:28…
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” and the true picture of “christian marriage” gets a little clearer…if you will honsetly “hear” it.
Orthodox views? You tell me.
JC
Teleprompter:
Well Crowed!
As a former Christian, who knows the premises from the inside, I find that well-put.
Others on Mormonism:
When I visited Salt Lake City and did the tourist tours, I heard one phrase from the BoM that I liked: it encouraged anyone to go to their own intuition and discover for themselves it the book was true.
I:
(1) Still think it probably isn’t.
(2) Think that encouraging people to rely on their own authority rather than an unprovable outside authority is a good thing. (They do have to have a minimum intelligence level – too often missing! This may well explain the preponderance of Christianity.)
I considered reading it, and though I think that’s a good thing for people to educate themselves without limiting their reading to what they believe, I never did so.
I still find it a very rigid, prejudiced (not just racially), suppressive religion. I was simply impressed with that one point.
John C,
I appreciate that you are polite, and not an asshole. Rare enough trait.
But you really do ramble meaninglessly, and have contributed exactly nothing useful.
@lifeofdi
In response to your question about a mormon going to heaven and another non-mormon not going to heaven. I think you would be surprised at how many non-mormons WILL go to the celestial kingdom and how many will not. Was it not 50 % of the 10 virgins who would not enter the bride-groom’s feast? that was 50 % of those fully invited and wanting to go.
You reap what you sow and my whole point in posting here was to voice an opinion to see what the reaction was. Some just insulted “joe smith” and moved on, while others refuted the “horse theory” or lack there of. In the end, it doesn’t matter who or what you want to worship whether it be money, idols, God, or even nature but what does matter is the good you do and the morals you have.
If you can master those base emotions such as greed, lust and truly be master over your physical emotions then I have no doubt (no matter what you believe) God will find a way to help you live with him again.
@all atheists
I think the biggest difference that sets you all apart is the lack of belief for something after death. It is because of this lack of belief that you say killing someone is the worst thing you can do to them. I have had people die in my arms that suffered a life-time of infirmities just because of a birth defect and when they passed on the peace and tranquility that came over them was not just an empty nothingness. I will not even attempt to describe it but suffice it to say that were they are now they are at rest and not just meat to be had by maggots in the ground.
@ John C
Yes. Orthodox. Just because it isn’t literal does not make it unorthodox. Have you never read Catholic or Eastern Church theologians? The split of Adam and Eve from one into two is not a new thought. And, your Genesis account still faults Eve for the fall.
@Cello…
Not Eve per se…for “she” is not really a “she” but a rebellious “soul”…see the difference??? No woman “faulting” here, but rather an internal condition remedied by a “new nature” and Oneness restored.
I could go on…but I dont think anyone really cares…but me, lol.
Take care guys…and gals!
Much love,
JC
” I will not even attempt to describe it but suffice it to say that were they are now they are at rest and not just meat to be had by maggots in the ground.”
My sister died with my hand on her leg.
There was no sudden transcendent peace. It was like clicking a light switch. One minute there was a living breathing person, the next just a chunk of meat. She is, in fact, just dust now. She exists only as memories and the genes she passed on to her son.
Sorry. You saw what you wanted to see.
BTW, Sam, you claiming something is true will not buy much as long as you claim to follow an obvious work of fiction like the BoM.
Ty…
What does BoM stand for? Bible of Man??? Set me straight please…thx
I’m really sorry if this posts a bunch of times.
@ Sam
You should try and stay awake more often in Sunday School or Seminary. What you think is lovely, and if true then probably means my mom’s dream of us all in the Celestial Kingdom will happen. But it’s not official doctrine.
All of these reference are from an lds.org search, so that you’ll accept them as valid. Sorry for how long this comment will be.
Sunday School lesson plan:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=32c41b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=3981767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1
WHO WILL INHERIT TERRESTRIAL GLORY? (D&C 76:71–80)
Those who:
a. Reject the gospel in this life but receive it in the spirit world (D&C 76:71–74).
b. Are honorable but are blinded by the craftiness of men (D&C 76:75).
c. Are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus (D&C 76:79).
HOW CAN WE INHERIT CELESTIAL GLORY? (D&C 76:50–70)
We must:
a. Receive the testimony of Jesus (D&C 76:51).
b. Be baptized by one with priesthood authority (D&C 76:51).
c. Keep the commandments (D&C 76:52).
d. Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (D&C 76:52–53).
e. Overcome the world by faith (D&C 76:53).
f. Be made perfect through the Atonement of Jesus Christ (D&C 76:69).
WHO ELSE WILL INHERIT CELESTIAL GLORY? (D&C 137:7–10)
Those who:
g. Die without a knowledge of the gospel but “would have received it with all their hearts” (D&C 137:7–9).
And those who:
h. “Die before they arrive at the years of accountability” (D&C 137:10).
So according to that you can only get to the celestial kingdom if you are baptized by the proper (i.e. Mormon) authority and a good person, die before you’re eight, or die without hearing the gospel, but accept it in the afterlife.
Those who hear the gospel and are good people, but do not accept it only make it to the second kingdom.
Next:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c487a0ad4843d110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1
Russell M. Nelson, “Celestial Marriage,” Liahona, Nov 2008, 92–95
“While salvation is an individual matter, exaltation is a family matter. Only those who are married in the temple and whose marriage is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise will continue as spouses after death and receive the highest degree of celestial glory, or exaltation. A temple marriage is also called a celestial marriage. Within the celestial glory are three levels. To obtain the highest, a husband and wife must be sealed for time and all eternity and keep their covenants made in a holy temple.”
Even if you’re a good person, and Mormon, you can only get to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom if you’re sealed in the temple. If you’re not married in the LDS temples, no matter how good you are, you can only be a ministering angel in the Celestial Kingdom.
And finally:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=455505481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
Bruce R. McConkie, “The Caravan Moves On,” Ensign, Nov 1984, 82
A whole list of what you should do to get celestial glory.
“Test five: Do I believe the gospel as it has been restored in this final dispensation of grace?
…
Test six: Am I a faithful member of the true Church?
…There is no such thing as gaining salvation from a false god, or by conforming to a false plan of salvation, or through membership in a false church.
Truth—pure, diamond truth—truth unmixed with error, truth and truth alone can lead a soul to salvation.
Test seven: Do I honor Joseph Smith as the great prophet of the Restoration?”
If you do not believe in the “true” church (i.e. LDS) and do not honor Joseph Smith as a true prophet, no matter how good you are, you just don’t make it.
Book of Mormon
Oh…yea sorry…didnt realize you had been discussing with a Mormon…thx
John C, @Boomslang…
“You can know everything I know…I am nobody special”
‘Sorry, you haven’t proven to me that you “know” anything, despite the over-flux of useless evidence that you *believe* you “know” something.
Continues….”I don’t know about Hell Boom…I really dont.”
Then you cannot (honestly) claim to “know”, absolutely, the “Truth” about your chosen philosophy on life..i.e..”Christianity”.
Continues….”Not trying to be evasive…just dont have a true and complete understanding of darkness, only light.”
Meaningless…..until/unless you can convey this “understanding” in an objective, cohesive way.(which, thus far, you have not)
John C: “There are some (ultimate reconciliation’ers) out there who believe there is a grand plan to redeem all…one day regardless of believing or not. They point to various OT scriptures and one in the NT (Acts) that appear to support their claims.”
The “spiritualists”/”mystics” can “point to” their ancient manuscripts all they’d like. It is evidence of nothing. Besides, you are adamant that the “Truth” is “inward”. No human being, to my knowledge, has ever actually consumed a book.
John C: “In this way, some believe those who did not receive the King while occupying their ‘earth garments’ lol will be relegated to being mere ‘subjects’ in the heavenly Kingdom as opposed to ‘citizens’ of the King. I dont claim to know those things, they are not nearly as interesting to me as Christ living within me..now, daily.”
I’m not interested searching for “Truth” based on how/if it keeps me “interested”. That’s one of the many differences between you and me. I’m sure your belief(s) give you all the comfort and interest on Nature’s green earth. Hence, why you believe them in the first place, and hence, why you have zero intention of considering you could be wrong.
John C: “I’m crazy in love with Him, and He with me…or I’m just plain…crazy! ha”
I would say claiming to have a relationship with an invisible, semi-dead man constitutes “crazy”. Yes.
John C: “RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE, JOY in the Holy spirit.”
Unfounded assertion.
John C: “There is a life…”
Yes; agreed…and I am living that “life” right now, just like all living organisms are.
John C: “there is more[than 'a life']“.
Prove it.
I suspect this thread is finally dying a well deserved death, but I wanted to get in a quick reaction to Ding Dong.
First, thanks for responsing.
Second, if I understand you correctly you are saying that you believe in god and sin because you “feel” them inside. There is no objective evidence for either, but because your emotions tell you they exist, so you believe they do.
That’s a very honest answer, and I appreciate your honesty. I know you say you aren’t here to try to convert (although I question whether that wasn’t your original intent), but you just aren’t going to win many debates with non-believers with this kind of logic. Feeling something doesn’t constitute evidence of the existence of anything other than your feelings. Examining your feelings is a worthwhile exercise, but it doesn’t constitute evidence for anyone to believe incredible claims.
If I told you that I “feel” you can fly, and based on my feelings you should jump from a cliff, would you do it? Of course not. Because my feelings aren’t evidence of my incredible claim. You would demand real, objective, verifiable, evidence of that claim before you took your life in your hands. As you should.
I suggest to you that you will be happier and more fuillfilled if you apply that kind of skepticism to your views on god and sin as well.
I hope as your mature you take time to really examine if there is evidence – real evidence – to support your world view. Good luck.
@Bill…
Ahh…but Ding Dong is but a youth! Which means he/she is still greatly in touch with his/her inner (heart) life. But we on the other hand…are all grown up!! The wonder, the awe, the life…has been dealt a death blow by…the reason of maturity which makes us kinda…dead to the things which portend to life and love.
Unless we be converted and become as a child…we can not see the kingdom. Oh that we would all do the benjamin button and grow…younger, then we would be free from our Self knowing, and truly free to know…Truth.
Freedom Bill…freedom…what is it like anyway? Really?
Love like Him,
JC
cello
In order for you to miss Daniel’s opening points on abusive men being the fact in may Christian marriages, you had to have been blindfolded. In a cave. On Mars. A dark cave, to make sure you couldn’t peek under the blindfold.
Wearing earmuffs. Singing “la la la, I don’t wanna hear it”, just to make sure all other sound was drowned out.
Like fuck they will!
Healthy, unabused people don’t submit to other people.
cello
Your beloved subject of subjugation of women was over on another forum anyway.
You were out of place.
Case for God killing his children: SUSTAINED!
VJ-
I think Cello was trying to clarify one of JC’s points not agree with it.
I saw that a few times, people mentioned:
“YOU CAN’T PROVE THAT GOD DOES”T EXIST”
There were quite a few good replies. But in general, such questions have the universal reply : THE BURDEN OF THE PROOF ALWAYS RESTS WITH THE BELIEVER.
The reason is simple. Can you prove that Santa Clause doesn’t exist? No? Why not? Because one can’t prove something doesn’t exist when it in fact doesn’t exist.
Importantly, if I told you that on my way back home, I saw a 5-headed-pink-assed T-Rex who spoke french, the onus would be on me to prove that I did in fact see what I claimed I saw. It would not be your burden to prove that such a creature doesn’t exist because it would be impossible for you to disprove something that doesn’t exist.
Anyways, my blog on atheism (from a hindu perspective) and economics at http://bigotblog.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/the-logic-and-statistics-of-prayer/
(this one is a post on how prayer works)
http://www.qwantz.com/archive/001397.html
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Siddharth Singh:
Well Crowed!
Burden of Proof: Bravo!
I love the picture in the post two posts up- krazy kitty with AK47! I have a white cat. Her name is Isabelle. She has attitude, but not as much as krazy kitty!
(sorry to be off topic!)
LRA…
I’ve been thinking about what you said all week…you said, regarding your past Christian experience….”I tried so hard”. That was the problem, its not about us “trying hard” to be good “Christians”, but rather allowing Him to live His life in and thru us, as us.
Have you ever considered that it takes Christ in us to live the “christian” life? It’s His life after all, not ours.
You have been on my heart this week…just wanted to follow up with you.
Take care…
JC
Don’t you ever feel ashamed of your witnessing, John?
@Aor
I have to say I’d rather deal with a weird-but sorta-honest shill like John C than the utter crap coming from many of the “I’m-not-here-to-convert-anyone” types we get here. Or the disingenuous garbage Eric Kemp likes to put out.
I tend to think John’s crazy, but sincere.
(Incredibly late but – )
Sampsomonium said:
But law and order don’t give men hope…
Sam -
The single most hopeful thing I’ve ever heard in my life, the single thing that has given me more concern and care for my fellow-man, more impetuous to do the right thing wherever possible, and more tolerance for differeng beliefs? That one thing?
“This is the only life you have. There is no heaven, there is no hell – there is only the legacy you leave behind in your one try at existence.”
I’m not going to an eternal reward. I’m not going to eternal punishment either. I’m not going to be reincarnated, and I’m not going to be reborn.
I don’t need to pray for positive change – I need to work for it. I don’t need to /hope/ that things will get better… I need to go out and make them better. All of the power to improve the lot and lives of those around me is /mine/. Right here. Right now. If I go out and use that power, I /can/ make a difference. My life’s meaning is what I choose for it to be – and I can make good decisions without the cluttering nonsense of biblical right and wrong.
I am, to use Christian terminology, the Samaratan. I do not believe as you do, but this does not change what is right and wrong – and while you lie bleeding on the side of the road, I will pick you up, get you to the ER, make sure somebody calls your family, and bring you flowers afterword. I will help where and when I can, to the fullest of my ability – because /that/ is my legacy. That is all I have, in the end – the world must be a better place for my passage.
I don’t care if you’re gay, a single mother, a divorcee, a man or woman, a ‘sinner’, a ‘saint’, a leper, a pariah, a prostitute, or a prince. I don’t have a bible telling me that any of these things are right or wrong – if you’re laying in a ditch, I’ll help you.
I can heal the sick. Comfort the dying. I don’t have the excuse of prayer, I only have the consequences of inaction. I am active in my community, active in my job, active in my volunteerism, active in my neighborhood – /because I have no excuse to be anything else/.
Knowing that this is my only life, and its triumphs and mistakes are mine, and mine alone .. it makes me conscious of what I do to others, how I treat them. It makes me listen, makes me seek understanding – I cannot retreat to ‘righteousness’, because my right and wrong is built around simple evident human need and the needs of the society around me, not my faith.
Athiests as a whole are no better or worse than Christians. We have the same divorce rate, and the same crime rate. We still sometimes take our spouses for granted, and we forget to call our parents – and any number of other things. But.. Athiests have the certain knowledge that these failings are not forgiven by some greater deity that makes it all okay. We own and are shaped by our errors – we must be. And we learn, over time, to transcend them.
The average Athiest-on-the-street is probably less likely to insult you, less likely to belittle you, less likely to attack your worth. They won’t seek to convert you. They won’t preach. They’ll just.. do.
That’s why I have such hope. There are more like me. We go out, and we do our part, in small ways. We work toward something with those of like mind – and I have no more excuses for inaction.
Isn’t /that/ hope? That this world can and will be better – and in fact is pretty darned nifty even with all its problems – and that you and I and everyone can be part of making it better still?
@Grimm…
So this is all there is huh? You are content with…this? What you see…in the here and now? You play your (good) part and then are no more? And then we, like dominoe’s all play our (good) parts collectively and things (eventually) get better for some (temporal) generation that merely…fades away? And this gives you hope???
What if there (really) is….more? What if we only “see” in one plane, one limited (human) mode? What if the unseen is truly substantial? What if all this is a mere…illusion? What if the (real) story is much richer, deeper, beautiful than what we’ve been told?
Where do the fairy tales come from…really? And why is there always a paradise that gets lost, a villian, a hero and a great restoration, a “happily ever after”? Where did all THAT come from?
Was just wondering…thx for your contribution, I enjoyed reading it…but it leaves me wondering…what if??
JC
John, you should be ashamed of your relentless proselytizing.
John C., asks….”So this is all there is huh? You are content with…this?”
As if man’s “contentedness” (which is *subjective*) plays a role in finding, or is relevent to, *objective* “Truth”. So, basically, an arugment from credulity(shocker)…..i.e..”But…but….but… I cannot fathom that this is all there is…… so there must be more!!!”
Continues….. “What you see…in the here and now? You play your (good) part and then are no more?”
This is where the current availible evidence points, yes.
Continues….”And then we, like dominoe’s all play our (good) parts collectively and things (eventually) get better for some (temporal) generation that merely…fades away? And this gives you hope???”
“Hope” *is* “temporal. If you, John C.(or any Christian reading this), have “no hope” in existing in the here and now(this moment), and instead, put all of your “hope” in the extremely off-chance of an eternal existence, then *YOU* are the one who is essentially “hopeless”, because if you cannot be “content” existing *now*, then there’s no reason for any of us to believe you’ll be “content” to go on existing.
Continues…..”What if there (really) is….more?”
I’ll play along. If your theology is actually true, then I, and most of humanity, will be in “hell”, according to Christian doctrine.
(I wuv you too, Jebus!)
Continues….”Where do the fairy tales come from…really?”
A: Our imaginations…….really.
Continues…..”And why is there always a paradise that gets lost, a villian, a hero and a great restoration, a ‘happily ever after’? Where did all THAT come from?”
A: Our innate and evolved desire to want to success as the human race. Our “happiness” ensures this.
Correction above: “success”, obviously should have been “succeed”.
Hear me dear Boomslang…yes, there is more, there is a life…and its yours for the taking.
But you will have to let go Boomslang, let go of everything you thought you were before, all the things that you thought identified you…as you.
Its like this…like the parable Jesus gave, having discovered the whereabouts of ‘the treasure’ (in the field, us) we sell all we have (external values) in order to purchase the field wherein the treasure lies.
When Jesus said it was hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom, what did He mean by this? And what did He mean when he said blessed are those that are poor in spirit, for they SHALL be filled?
We are rich, content in ourselves until that beautiful day when Christ shows us we are actually, lacking, poor (in spirit) and we say Lord…please fill me with…you. And He does. Its His very presence, His spirit that satisfies man’s deepest longings.
There is SO much more than we SEE with our natural eyes. That “more” is what He offers, the spiritual substance of life itself.
So much is available to the one that will only believe.
JC
Ah, yes, of course……….I “need” Jebus to make me feel like I am wreched, “poor”, and “lacking”, as a human being, and it is only *then* that he can make feel good about myself.
You are pathetic.
@Boomlsang…
So Christ IN you would actually de-value,…you? Make you less than as opposed to more than you were…before?
John C: “Hear me dear Boomslang…”
I *have* heard you. ‘ Problem is, when I respond to you, you. do. not. listen. Yes, you’ve made it quite clear now that you have zero intention of entertaining any POV that opposes, or is skeptical of, your own. It’s called a religious conviction. If you don’t like the word “religious”… swell, then stop acting religious. Remember, once you choose to take your “personal relationship” with your invisible, undead, god-man out of the bedroom and “suggest” (minister) to others that they should join in, it then becomes “religion”—-like…..like a pseudo-spiritual “orgy”. No thanks.
Continues…..”yes, there is more, there is a life”
Yes, uh-huh….we know John C.’s favorite apologetic catch-phrase…..i.e..”there is a life.” My response is the same—-I know there’s “a life”, and I’m living it right now.
Continues….”Its like this…like the parable Jesus gave…”
Existential fallacy.
Continues….”So much is available to the one that will only believe.
A couple of things(for you to most-likely ignore)…
1) I don’t *need* more than what’s “available”. You are the one who needs “more”; you are the one who is not content with this life, which is precisely why you’ve adopted superstition…i.e..to cope with reality. If you want to live life on your knees and believe that you are wreched, “poor”, and “lacking” in “spirit”(meaningless word), then fine—that is your right. Just please allow me my right to choose to not live like you….which now leads to # 2….
2) I’ve told you, oh, probably a half a dozen times now, that I cannot simply “choose” to believe—as in, when you say things like, “So much is available to the one [who] will only believe.”…..as if someone can simply choose to believe what they find UNbelievable. You even said, yourself, that “God” is an “unbelievable” proposition(I’ll find the exact, verbatim quote if necessary) Notwithstanding, if I were to attempt to believe what I cannot find believable, I would be lying to myself, and furthermore, your Omniscient biblegod would know that I wasn’t a genuine “believer”, as well.
John C., let it penetrate your skullcap: I will not/cannot believe on “faith”. If your invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent biblegod wants me to “only believe”, then it certainly has the wherewithal to make me a *genuine* believer, itself; it doesn’t need John C.’s help.
Furthermore, and again, if my rejecting, or my inability to accept this supposed “offer” means “hell”(as delineated in Christian doctrine), then I reject the “offer”. I’m better than that, and I won’t be bullied into believing, even if I really did believe it.
@Boomslang…
You have stated your case, I read each and every word…thank you for the time and candid thought you put into your post…as usual.
I completely understand your position, its a difficult thing to transition from a life of self dependence to one of dependence, it doesnt make sense to you at all, I can appreciate that.
Remember, at one time I was just like you, I didnt believe nor did I see any reason to believe, it didnt make sense.
You would know it if He was (currently) beckoning you…inwardly. Its unmistakable, very strong and not in any way an “emotional” type of experience but rather an indisputable inward force.
All the best…
JC
I am starting to agree with John C. I think he really is a different species.
let me start by saying I am a Christian. I didn’t go looking for a site to pick an argument or spit out an enraged and ignorant response. i “stumble upon” ed here. Yes, in the Bible many people are killed, but note in the beginning, in the garden, there was happiness and it was all pretty sweet. The fall of man leads to all the death and destruction. anyway, you could agree with me that God has created far more people than died in war, floods, and what not in the Old Testament.
I don’t know exactly how to explain the feeling that goes along with faith. it is such a mixture of things, but I find it harder to believe that we are alone. There is such a love that I have seen change people. A profound feeling of love, happiness, and forgiveness ran over me until I cried from joy …i remember the night God saved my soul. it’s like..ok..imagine everything you have done that you are ashamed of or regret and then imagine blinking your eyes and none of those feelings exist any longer. i know that must sound silly but I promise it exists. Sadly, there are so many dead churches and hypocritical Christians. And, I honestly think it is a lack of people seeking God. So many churches are filled with people who have their own agendas and never stop and think hmmm…why not actual do the things that I am reading about. When you are in the presence of the spirit even if you don’t necessarily believe in God you can feel a shift in the room. anyway, I just wanted to express that it isn’t all about drinking wine and eating bread, picnics, or the Easter bunny ( i am still suck on a reasonable cause for that one). It’s about love, and the New Testament has some pretty awesome stuff to say about Jesus and how we don’t have to be prefect but rather trust in God and Jesus with our troubles. I hope I don’t sound arrogant or angry. I am not at all threatened by people with questions because I have questions all the time running through my head. I just thought it was worth mentioning that there are some people out there that can listen and share rather than fight and insult. never once did Jesus fight or insult. I just hope that everyone could find the peace that I have found through the love of God.
As a believer and follower of the Lord jesus I have to say i am sorry for my brothers “Dumb Ass Atheist” comment.” a bit strong but I understand the emetion.
If one chooses to beleive in God or not it’s up to them the truth will inevitably be reallized by each one of us as it is appointd on to each of us to die and stand before God.
In fact as a believe i wrestle with the very iyems you list and no I really do not have a completely satisfactory (and by this I mean one that make me feel all good and warm) explanation. But fact is that we are God’s and not our own which in each one of our cases He will make totally clear. And so it was with every one of the individuals in each of the cases that you have listed and yes are painful to consider; however lets be fare If The Lord God calls His sould before Him, it’s not the same as we sinners prove every single day and night that we ar ein truth killers with blood soaked hands and hearts, and if we were not so then None of these things would have even have happened
God Bless you all
God Need US !
God Need our Helps !
God can not live outside earth,
That is Fault of GOD !
so,
God can not exist without US!
God can create everything is not true,
because God can not create another God.
God is just like us, because God is created by man, and only a fool would try to tell you you’re gonna burn in hell for being human.A fool or the church, pretty much the same thing.
All gods from time immemorial are fantasies, created by humans for the welfare of humans and to attempt to explain the seemingly inexplicable. But do we, in the third year of the 21st century of the Common Era and on the springboard of colonising the universe, need such palliatives? Should we not heed the message of Corinthians that while we once spoke as a child, understood as a child and thought as a child, we are now grown-up and should put away childish things?
Have read some of the post here, as I struggle with the things that happened in the old testament and comparing that to the life of Jesus in the New Testament. Some things that have help (but not answered all the questions for me) have been listening to Greg Boyd’s take on the problem of evil. Check out his website for some reading. http://www.gregboyd.org/ and http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_911.htm with the Q&A from letters of a skeptic.
I would be interested to here your thoughts…
Peace,
Ben.
The author of this website is a dumb ass.
I was surprised on the number of logical fallacies that came up by theists here that atheists didn’t jump on. It was actually hard not to respond to some of the posts from 3-4 days ago that were just riddled with inconsistencies.
But to Daniel, great post, and I’ll definitely be following your writings more. I personally see nothing wrong with rationalized religion, and by that I mean when people can balance secularism with personal religion. What people choose to believe is none of my concern, as long as that belief doesn’t negatively impact another person. I know that’s a very gray statement, but its the best I can think of at the moment. But one thing I do enjoy is how so many Christians are so quick to condemn people to hell, when that’s not that role on the world, even according to their Bible, it’s God’s. They’re often quick to judge, say they’re not judging, and fall back on the Bible, then starts the inconsistent rants, as we’ve seen many of here.
But great post, thanks.
Do u guys not understand that when Adam ate the fruit it brought sin into the world. With the sin people knew the difference between good and evil. People chosse to do evil and kill other people God didnt kill anybody. Plus how can you say God killed people when you dont even believe in God. So techinically all of you on here do believe there is a God because you are arguing that God killed people. So all of you really need to get saved because God still loves you eventhough your dissing on him. God sent Jesus to the world to die for you. You guys choose not to believe it becasue you let the devil convince you. I will pray for you and i hope you come to realize that there is a God, and he loves you very much.
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I didnt say anthing about Othello or Desdemona. Also why do you have to be so hateful towards me or the Christian Sabbath I wasnt being hateful to any of you guys when I posted my message on here. Maybe you think I was right so now you are trying to be mean to cover it up.
God Bless
Quick Question
What are you guys going to say to God when you die, and he says why didnt you believe in me?
Holy Bible or Mein Kampf???
1. You want something about Mose or Adolf Hitler know?
2. Never heart about God,s Gestapo in Old Testament? Ex.32:26-29., Num.25:1.?
3. Dtn. 7:1,3,16,22., Mt.5:48., John 10:30., John 8:44.
Should I…. Should I spam-hammer this? I just don’t know!
I can’t figure it out either. It just quotes a lot of Bible verses in an English-free context.
After looking through the verses he sited, i believe the poster is trying to show that the principles of the bible and Mein Kampf are generally the same things.
Killing those who are unlike you, cleansing and the like.
Well, there are more religions that preach that philosophy than not. Throwing a dart at any random collection of holy books is probably going to net you something along those lines.
God have mercy on your soul. The time will come when you will regret these words.
Can you be less specific? I almost managed to guess whose words you were referring to.
because if this thread has taught us anything, it’s that your god has such wonderful mercy for those who he doesn’t agree with.
ummm. hello? Jesus insulted pharisees on a regular basis. he also turned over tables in the temple, fighting because they were defiling the temple with money matters.
you christians really need to know your bible better!
…. Yes, in the Bible many people are killed, but note in the beginning, in the garden, there was happiness and it was all pretty sweet. …
mark… you call an evil demon/satan unleashed to harm you sweet.
Jesus got angry at a fig tree for not fruiting out of season, he accused his best friend of being Satan (and later told him to set up a church in his name), lied about his followers being able to drink poison, he said that his followers had to hate their wives and children, he refers to his enemies as vipers, blind fools, hypocrites, sons of the devil, thieves and robbers, adulterers, and all sorts of other insulting names. He even doubted God when he was being crucified.
Hardly someone you’d hold up as a moral paragon…
Isn’t it funny how we non-christians know the bible… but the “believers” don’t?
Actually, not funny– just ridiculous.
Anyone who bothers to post something like that is a moron.
Also, “Mr Manguy?” Really?
Worried people will think you’re a woman?
Thank you, Mr. Manguy. You are an inspiration to us all.
No, he is not and comments like that do nothing for Mankind there Manguy. Be respectful please or kindly go away…thank you.
His…brilliance is something to behold, isn’t it, Daniel?
Not true LRA, at least not in my case. But remember, “knowing the bible” is not what God is after, rather “knowing Him”. Its not so much about the external print (bible) but rather the internal blue…print, His nature within.
There is more…
How does one ‘wrestle’ with the fact that the god of the OT is heinously evil?
Christians often talk about the old dispensation or some such as if the god of the Torah is a different god than Jesus.
The great historian, Mel Brooks, reminds us that a third decalogue tablet was dropped and broken. The Spirit whispers to me the 11th Commandment:
Thou shalt not cherry pick.
:)
“If one chooses to beleive in God or not it’s up to them the truth will inevitably be reallized by each one of us as it is appointd on to each of us to die and stand before God.”
If you wait until death, then you will never know that you were wrong.
What a waste.
Yeah – it was all sweet until god decided to f everything up by putting the tree of knowledge and a snake in front of Adam and Eve.
“So techinically all of you on here do believe there is a God because you are arguing that God killed people.”
So technically you believe that Othello is real because you are arguing that he killed Desdemona?
Through my long and checker career, I have worked with many different people from a variety of backgrounds. A very intelligent man was a baptist minister and the chaplain for the Civil Air Patrol Sqadron I commanded. He once made a profound comment about freedom. He said, “a person has the right to wave his arms in the air, but that freedom ends where my nose begins.” That is how religion should work. You are free to believe what ever you want as long what you believe does not have a negative impact on the way I live my life.
If such a thing happens, then I’m going to ask god why he lied to me. I’m going to ask him why all the scientific literature from all the thousands upon thousands of scientists who spent their entire careers points to the fact that Genesis is dead wrong about the age of the earth, the origins of mankind, the supposed global flood, heck, even the history of the proto-Israelites concerning Egypt and the wanderings in the desert (for which there is no evidence).
Then I’m going to ask god why he insisted on genocide, raping, and war so that the Israelites could have a “promised” land.
Then I’m going to ask god why he allowed satan to torture Job, who was, according to the bible, a righteous man of god.
Then I’m going to ask god why Jesus’s miracles were given to a very small sample of people (considering all the people who have ever lived), and why I wasn’t give a fair shot at witnessing miracles myself. I will ask god why even the demons and satan get to have evidence of god’s existence (as they have supposedly experienced his presence), and why god would give proof of his existence to his enemies, but not to his children.
Then I’m going to ask god why Jesus’ disciple Paul (and other apostles in the acts of the apostles) screwed up Jesus’ original message as they build a church that went on to commit some of the worst atrocities in human history (ie the Crusades, the burning of the “witches” of Europe, the Inquisition). Yeah, do unto others, huh?
Then I’m going to ask god why a good and loving god would end his supposed holy book with a world wide armageddon in which billions and billions of people get thrown into a lake of fire for all eternity.
Yeah, that’s what I’m going to do… if I die and the bible god is true.
Whoa Steve, I was making an analogy.
You claimed that because we were discussing the Bible narrative, that we believed it was true. Then I pointed out that we could discuss a Shakespeare narrative without believing that it was a true narrative of events.
I demonstrated that your point was illogical.