Here is two Muslim terrorists arguing over how many virgins they will get in Paradise:
As Aubrey said (my paraphrase), “What is heaven for the man is hell for the women.”
Another expanded on the thought:
Is hell and Paradise the same location, just different depending on who is in charge? And if so, would noble muslim men find it appealing to spend eternity with 72 women that are forced to be with them? Isn’t that rape? Is Paradise really just spending eternity raping women?
If the scripture really says that all men will get 72 women, I think most modern men would say that raping women for eternity would not be their idea of Paradise. Is this just another example of how easily religious doctrine crumbles when prodded with reason?
I found Mathurine’s response to very interesting:
Try not to think logically. In Islamic theology, the hur al ayn have no desire or thought other than to please the man. That’s not rape. They’re not human and don’t have thoughts and emotions like human women do. Think of the women you see in pornos — only they’re in “heaven” and have great skin.
Oh, so it’s like having sex with 72 virgin robots programmed to love you. Creepy.
Anyway, what a stupid thing to think actually happens.
It’s nothing like my religion, where the faithful get mansions (John 14:2) and crowns (Rev 3:11) and the honor of worshiping God at his mighty altar (Rev 22:3)…
(via)
Oh, so it’s like having sex with 72 virgin robots programmed to love you. Creepy.
No kidding. It also highlights a more general problem with conceptions of heaven (especially if they come pre-packaged with concepts of hell).
You’re supposed to be blissful in heaven. Problem is, what if someone you loved (like a spouse, parent or child) on Earth ended up in hell? Knowledge of that is not likely to make someone blissful. So, either you have the problem of heaven sucking, or the alternative is that somehow God “fixes” you so that you either don’t remember or don’t care. Ick on several levels.
It has always struck me as rather inconsistent the way it’s implied that the faithful will have lots and lots of casual sex with 72 virgins, compared with how extremely puritanical and uncomfortable Islam is in general about anything related to sex.
Allah works in mysterious ways.
More and more it seems like the main goal of Islam is simply to subjugate women, and and keep them on the level of cattle, or some kind of animal that merits no consideration and can be discarded at will. They seem to be going to great lengths to avoid thinking of women as human beings. Where does this malignant hatred of women come from?
I really enjoyed the satire in the clip!
he he he! How long will 10 virgins last us, a month maybe? I mean, we are talking about eternity here.
So 100 virgins will last 10 months? All that dying just for 10 months of virgins?
HAHAHAHAAAAHAHAAA!
Fundies really are stupid!
Take a look at this:
http://www.sohel.net/2004/08/martyrs-virgins-and-grapes.html
It’s been around for a while but I thought this summed it up nicely. In short, there is a growing body of support for the 72virgins being a “mistranslation”; in reality good Muslims can look forward to “grapes” (or some people believe just a bounty of all good things in nature) which were a highly sought after commodity at the time of writing the Koran. Interesting to think.
On a side note I’ve also heard via Q.I. (a British quiz show that attempts to find the truth behind myths and commonly held beliefs led by Stephen Fry) that a more recent translation holds it at 72 glasses of pure water (again relevant given the geographical location)
“Oh, so it’s like having sex with 72 virgin robots programmed to love you. Creepy.”
This is a good comment. I know it’s not related to what you blogged here but . . .
Many people like to use the excuses “why does God do this or not do that?” or they say “Why didn’t God just make us to love him.” when they try so hard to disprove a God they don’t believe exists in the first place.
Because “robots programmed to love you” is “creepy” indeed.
Again, I know this isn’t related (directly) to this post.
But I hope I’ll stop hearing these “logical” arguments from commentators on this blog as to some of the “many reasons” God can’t exist.
Liking this current thread of Muslim talk. Thanks Daniel!
Oh and this one
Christian says Because God doesn’t want to force you to love him so he makes you choose Him or Hell.
leads to
NonBeliever says “well if God is going to offer up such an egomaniacal choice of belief or hell, why doesn’t he just *make* me believe”
“If the scripture really says that all men will get 72 women, I think most modern men would say that raping women for eternity would not be their idea of Paradise.”
–Yeah, cause I generally get pretty tired and need a nap after raping the first three or four.
What do they all do while they’re waiting their turn? Or is there some sort of timeshare thing, where they move from one person to another? It’d definitely save on virgins, although wear and tear would probably go up.
I never bought the whole Christian “hymns-on-a-golden-pavement” “24-hour-adoration” heaven. I mean, even Desktop Tower Defence pales after a few hours. And if God made me so that I couldn’t do anything but enjoy it, then I wouldn’t be me, would I?
If you put it like this, and thinking of Pascal’s Wager, one wonders why not more people convert to islam…
The most interesting thing I have heard a Christian say about heaven is that all of the things you say you would want — virgins, crowns, a river of sour skittles, hand jobs — are earthly in nature. Heaven is enjoyable only because you are close to god.
I said that sounds boring there. He said it doesn’t matter, if you know no boredom.
Here is the key question: why VIRGINS? I can understand wanting to go to a place where you have lots and lots of sex all the time forever and ever, but with virgins?
You get to spend eternity having sex with someone who has no idea what they are doing? Who thinks this sound like fun?
Postal was a pretty funny movie, if you’re into over-the-top obscene and offensive humour. Good stuff. Very appropriate clip, too.
I like to think that the 72 virgins is a number provided so that the more noble members of the faith can get to know them all, maybe sit and chat with them a while, find one or two they really get on well with…
and the rest can just sort of hang around eating grapes and making the place look nice
Basically, you get some kind of lobotomy–the memory centers of your consciousness are divinely zapped away and you get to run around a throne giving Gawd a spiritual chubby for ever and ever, Amen.
When I was a kid, I had a conversation about heaven with a friend and wondered if heaven would have comic books. ‘Cause I didn’t want to be bothered with heaven if there wouldn’t be comic books. Of course, now, I wouldn’t want to be bothered with heaven unless there were comic books and tons of really hot guys. And Pepsi. And pizza. And ice cream. Over time, I pretty much realized that heaven, if it existed, would be an insanely boring place. Why the fuck would I want to egostroke a god for eternity?
the virgins are made of gold dust, right? wouldn’t want silver virgins after all.
.. Why the fuck would I want to egostroke a god for eternity?..
mark… and why is there perfect god so rough around the edges. hes not a smooth operator at all. i could come up with better and more reasons for the gods behavior than the bible.
the bigger question is this why the fuck would he ask or want us to ego stroke him for eternity.
the christian god is a pretty sensitive fellow to be so grand. damn hes the greatest.
hes also not consistant, he has problems and specifically says so about eating shell fish but nothing against slavery.
but we should believe this grand fellow is great
and for no other reason than that the bible says so.
i could say that the magic coconut was god and that i know that it was god becaue it told me and it told that if the future at some later point it is going to come back as an ivisible pink unicorn.
but one thing that the magic cocunut is clear about no matter what if you follow any religion other than the magic cocunut you are going to burn in hell for a very, very long time.
it does not matter that millions of people since the days of adam have been allergic to coconuts on sigt, if you do not believe in and worship the magic cocunut you will pay dearly. forever and ever ect.
we know this to be true because the magic cocunut says so. one needs no other proof.
One thing that turns me off from christianity is the total boringness of heaven. I’d rather just stay on earth than go to heaven to praise the lord 24/7.
Very funny video. I shall have to share it with my friends.
Oh also, the whole mansions of pearls and bricks of gold and ‘the true reward is to see the face of Big Al’ stuff is also in Islam. So you get a pearly mansion, chillin’ with the big guy, and virgins (or to be a virgin, whatevs). Plus, cushions and garments of silk and brocade (18:31)! So… yeah!
Funny, with all that, Osama and the rest of them still have to use that ‘bridegroom in heaven’ rhetoric to motivate people. Hell, even regular non-terrorist types will talk about ‘the bridegrooms of heaven’ (typically flowery language to describe the men of heaven meeting up with their wide eyed maidens).
So unless god brainwashes us into liking heaven, the only way we could achieve bliss would be if heaven were individually tailored to each person’s particular requirements. Which makes a mockery of the standard offer of 72 virgins, mansions or whatever.
Obviously, then, heaven is the real marketplace for religion, so you think you’d get to do a deal. Personally, I’d probably just want to get a bit of reading done without people interrupting me the whole time. And decent internet access.
Could god organise that or do I have to go with the virgins option? Perhaps we should petition the world’s religions to work us out the best tarrifs. We were halfway there with indulgences, but those failed to take the free marketplace into account. As far as the religions go, it’s bums on seats, so I’d have thought we as the punters should be in the position of power.
Well guys, if any of you end up in heaven, chat me up on this blog so I can know what it’s like.
Y’know…
After the first seven virgins I’d be lookin for a pro.
The people I’ve spoken to seem to believe in the latter, and don’t understand why it would be disturbing. Indeed, many descriptions of Heaven treat the chance to point and laugh at the dirty sinners as one of the great treats in store for the elect…
Yeah – it only takes a moment’s thought to realise that heaven is, for all practical purposes, icktastic
Not only do you have the problem of having to fix the “someone I loved went to hell” problem, but how about the “someone who I absolutely hate got into heaven” issue ? – I mean ‘he repented on his deathbed’ might be good enough for Jebus, but the fact that he murdered/raped/beat my sister will mean that I still have real concerns about his presence in the heavenly mansion next to mine
The magic, invisible sky-fairy is pretty much going to have to knock you unconscious to make heaven bearable
Sexuality is an uncontrollable force.
Uncontrollable forces cannot be subjugated to serve the needs of a power structure.
The power structure thus must attack the root of the uncontrollable force in order to manage the threat it poses.
Hence, sexuality must be controlled.
—–
And, since guys had political power, it shouldn’t be shocking that the mechanisms of control would be leveled against women who did not have political power. It is simply an accident of history that these religions were created at a time when the political situation was thus. Had they been created yesterday in Sweden, instead of thousands of years ago in the Levant, it is unlikely that the misogyny and anti-sexuality would be present.
Erm… I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone argue “Why didn’t God just make us to love him?”.
I’ve heard plenty of “Why does God allow evil?” on the other hand, and I think this a very valid question. I’m afraid you won’t ever stop hearing that question. And I see absolutely no reason you should.
Human bonding has virtually nothing in common with either robots or God-Is-Hiding-So-As-Not-To-Over-Influence-Our-Choice-To-Love-Him-Or-Not.
at stephen webb
sw…But I hope I’ll stop hearing these “logical” arguments from commentators on this blog as to some of the “many reasons” God can’t exist. …
mark…if god gave us intelligence to figure the word out and to help survive then how come your claim cant stand up to the test of logic.
how come your all power god does provide you with the wisdom and an all power argument that would convert us all to your beliefs.
how many non christians have you converted on this blog.
It’s interesting how you’re liking this thread about Muslims, but when the blog eviscerates some of the more idiotic teachings to come from Christianity, you’re complaining. Islam and Christianity allegedly worship the same (abusive, egomaniacal, sadistic, juvenile, petty, head-up-his-ass) god, so what accounts for the dissonance here?
There was a thread just the other day that asked, twists and turns aside, “why doesn’t God make us in a way that we automatically believe in Him?”
So it’s not out of nowhere.
I suspect what Stephen is referring to is the often asked question “why would God punish you for not believing in him”?
Christian says Believe in Jesus or go to hell.
Non Believer says Why should a loving God send me to hell?
Christian says Because God doesn’t want to force you to love him so he makes you choose Him or Hell.
It seems the ideas people have about heaven is some sort of a compensation for what you don’t have in real life. Life is short? Let’s fantasise about the place where you live forever! You live in a puritan society where women are the property of a few men? If you blow yourself up, you will get 72 virgins to play with!
Well, it’s not inconsistent if you’re a Muslim. Remember, logic need not apply when faith is the issue. Islam teaches that we must have rules about sex or food or money here on earth but in Jannah, or paradise, there will be none.
For example, it is haraam, or forbidden, to drink alcohol on earth, but in paradise, you can drink all the wine you want to, with no negative side effects like vomiting and waking up next to a stranger the next morning.
By the by, just as a former Muzzle who lived most of my life in the West, I did find Islam’s attitude towards sex within marriage rather open. I suppose that is because when you look at the prohibitions in general – sex outside of marriage, no gay sex – I saw those also among Christians, and Islam also has a quiet but long history of sex manuals being written and very open and explicit questioning about sexual matters to the scholars. I mean, I have sat in rooms with scholars who were being asked about cunnilingus and other matters and no one was blushing or saying that it was wrong. Would I find the same in a church? I don’t know; it is moot now. :)
There has to be a huge element of insecurity inherent in this.
I mean, the one and only guaranty you get from having sex with a virgin is that they won’t ever have had it BETTER before. They won’t be mentally comparing your technique to their last boyfriend’s, they won’t think your penis curves at a really odd angle, etc.
Of course, some of us like a little healthy competition. It forces you to excel. :)
Well, beyond the insecurity notion (which was covered well by others), there’s also the point that virginity is symbolic of purity and cleanliness.
It’s hard to come up with anything that more approximates a cultural obsession than the Semitic religious attitude towards purity and cleanliness. All three of the monotheistic majors are monomaniacally nuts about it, and they all have roots in those same cultural norms.
Maybe since they treat women like property, it’s like getting a new car. Even if they run well, used cars are for bargain shoppers and pinch-pennies. This is heaven motherfuckers: you’ll be flingin’ fliff like a sultan.
Probably because virginity was so highly prized in a bride for so very long. Plus that whole ‘I got there first!’ nonsense. Why, the hadith even say that Muslim women who are awarded paradise will be resurrected *as virgins* when they go to Heaven.
thanks for trying to share the truth… about the scripture…
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work – these attempts to make it sound like Muslims were fantasising about grapes this whole time. The language of the hadiths – which are the foundation of tafseer – is quite clear: virgins, women, wives, concubines, maidens of lsiight, and so on. (The # of 72 comes from hadith. The Quran only mentions hur al ayn, and there is no way that can be understood as a glass of water either).
That’s a ton of insecurity. Trading a whole lot of fun for the knowledge she’s never had anyone better.
Sounds like a raw deal to me.
Yeah, if cutting off a the male prepuce was originally for cleanliness, as some say it was, we can safely conclude that the price the big three are willing to pay for purity is a high one.
Fair enough on the whole purity thing. I guess my point is that purity is a stupid thing to hold in high regard. If heaven is suppose to be paradise, it seems to me the “less than pure” should play a prominent role.
Please excuse that rogue article.
But if you knew no boredom, then you wouldn’t be you; you’d be someone else.
Forced love.
…the virgins are made of gold dust, right? wouldn’t want silver virgins after all. …
mark…great line.
But see, most Christians don’t want to be reminded that the “evil Muslims” are, like themselves, People of the Book. *sigh*
I noticed that too, Roger. And was utterly unsurprised by it.
I suspect it’s something like this, coupled with what Ty said. How can it be about anything other than power and domination?
Bill is right: logic about enjoying sex points to non-virgins. Logic about how to dominate someone points to virgins. More creepiness.
Yes – God’s omnipotence always seems to take a holiday when confronted with the specter of our free will. Seems to be like Kryptonite to him.
But I’m a poor, benighted fool who doesn’t have the Holy Spirit whispering the secrets of the universe into my ear – eh, Stephen?
amon: “but the fact that he murdered/raped/beat my sister will mean that I still have real concerns about his presence in the heavenly mansion next to mine”
facinating point! Take that one step further to what if the person that murdered YOU made it into heaven!!! Can you imagine that? The depraved fool that killed you had a death bed conversion and is your neighbor in heaven LOL. Now that would rightly suck.