A freeze was coming. My mother had labored for months on her garden, and a freeze would slaughter it.
“What are you going to do about your garden, Mom?” I asked.
“I’m going to pray,” she said.
I restrained my tongue, but I wanted to point out that prayer never saved anyone’s garden during a freeze.
A couple days later the cold front started coming through. Mom began getting nervous.
That night, she was out for hours, in the dark, covering her garden.
The moral is, of course, that even Christians know that prayer doesn’t work against reality. So stop praying and cover your garden.
Delusion seems to have a huge impact on hope.
My own mother used to say that we couldn’t imagine how the world would look like without people praying for peace, for example. But if that were true, it would mean that those who decide on a war (like a recent US president) have no free choice, they bear no responsibility whatsoever.
People who pray implicitly put all responsibility for all bad things that happen in the world on the shoulders of the god they’re praying to.
This was what finally made me realize I am an atheist- that prayer doesn’t work. I read the site “Why Does God Hate Amputees?” and that was the final straw.
A crafty Theist would respond that God answered her prayers by “telling” her she really ought to cover her garden.
—–
I think the standard cute anecdote goes something like:
There was a man who lived by the river. He heard a radio report that the river was going to rush up and flood the town and that the all the residents should evacuate their homes. But the man said, “I’m religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me.”
The waters rose up. A guy in a rowboat came up and he shouted, “Hey, hey you, you down there. The town is flooding. Let me take you to safety.” But the man shouted back, “I’m religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me.”
A helicopter was hovering overhead and a guy with a megaphone shouted, “Hey you, you down there. The town is flooding. Let me drop this ladder and I’ll take you to safety.” But the man shouted back that he was religious, that he prayed, that God loved him and that God will take him to safety.
Well… the man drowned and standing at the Gates of St. Peter he demanded an audience with God. “Lord,” he said, “I’m a religious man, I pray, I thought you loved me. Why did this happen?” God said, “I sent you a radio report, a helicopter and a guy in a rowboat. What the hell are you doing here?”
@Elemenope
love the story of the drowning man.. that’s a good one!
But with faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains. I think it’s pretty obvious here that your mother has very little faith – she didn’t step out, but caved in right when God was going to do a miracle.
God, I really hate the notion that the degree of “faith” you exhibit reflects the power that God uses to move in your life. It’s the most pernicious concept in christianity, imho.
In my life, I can come up with 5 specific cases, where people I have known have been critically sick with cancer. They were specifically prayed over (don’t get cynical yet) and later the doctors ran tests and the cancer was gone. They doctors had no medical reason as to why this would happen. The Christian community around me and me, both gave credit to God for these seemingly miracles.
My question to you guys, As atheists, how would you explain instances in life that cannot be proven scientifically?
Before you jump to the next logical question to me, I will address it. How do I explain the many instances in life where people have been prayed for and nothing was seemingly done. I could give a long dissertation that I am sure many of you have already heard some of the arguments, but my final conclusion, would be, I do not know completely how to answer that question. I am still wrestling with that answer.
Rynoos:
Cancer is one of these diseases that sometimes just goes away, treatment or no treatment.
Studies have shown that there’s no difference in remission rates between people who are prayed over and those who are not.
Therefore, prayer has no measurable effect on cancer. There’s nothing to answer.
Daniel, love the site.. I have enjoyed reading.. you definitely have stirred up some great conversation.. I was thinking about your stop praying and cover the garden… that reminded of what the Bible says God said to Moses at the Red Sea
13 Moses answered the people, “Do not be afraid. Stand firm and you will see the deliverance the LORD will bring you today. The Egyptians you see today you will never see again. 14 The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still.”
15 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on. 16 Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground. 17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. 18 The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen.”
Rynoos: You second paragraph answered your first question. Google “confirmation bias”.
Cancer is also affected by a person’s state of mind, because cancer is the body turning against itself in a way. So someone with a fighting attitude may fare better than someone who gives up. My father recoverred from lung cancer due to his medical treatment, but even the doctors where saying his will to fight it definatly helped. I also know aa guy who was diagnosed with cancer and given a few months to live. He refused to accept that and there was not a doubt in his head that he would beat it, and the cancer went into remission. Cancer does that more often than you would think.
God, I really hate the notion that the degree of “faith” you exhibit reflects the power that God uses to move in your life. It’s the most pernicious concept in christianity, imho.
Agreed. And arguably, it isn’t even supported scripturally. cf. The Book of Job.
@ Rynoos
If you want to know the results of a controlled $2.4 Million experiment exactly on the topic of praying for sick people ……. Here is a section of the results from the God Delusion – Richard Dawkins:
THE GREAT PRAYER EXPERIMENT
……..Valiantly shouldering aside all mockery, the team of researchers soldiered on, spending $2.4 million of Templeton money under the leadership of Dr Herbert Benson, a cardiologist at the Mind/Body
Medical Institute near Boston. Dr Benson was earlier quoted in a Templeton press release as ‘believing that evidence for the efficacy of intercessory prayer in medicinal settings is mounting’. Reassuringly, then, the research was in good hands, unlikely to be spoiled by sceptical vibrations. Dr Benson and his team monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals, all of whom received coronary
bypass surgery. The patients were divided into three groups. Group 1 received prayers and didn’t know it. Group 2 (the control group) received no prayers and didn’t know it. Group 3 received prayers and did know it. The comparison between Groups 1 and 2 tests for the efficacy of intercessory prayer. Group 3 tests for possible psychosomatic effects of knowing that one is being prayed for. Prayers were delivered by the congregations of three churches, one in Minnesota, one in Massachusetts and one in Missouri, all distant from the three hospitals. The praying individuals, as explained, were given only the first name and initial letter of the surname of each patient for whom they were to pray. It is good experimental practice to standardize as far as possible, and they were all, accordingly, told to include in their prayers the phrase
‘for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications’.
The results, reported in the American Heart Journal of April
2006, were clear-cut. There was no difference between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not. What a surprise. There was a difference between those who knew they had been prayed for and those who did not know one way or the other; but it went in the wrong direction. Those who knew they had been
the beneficiaries of prayer suffered significantly more complications than those who did not.
Here’s how that ‘drowning man’ story continues:
‘But, but, but,’ says the man. ‘You’re God. You must have known I would do what I did.’
‘Yes.’
‘Come to think of it, if you sent the boat, surely you also sent the flood in the first place.’
‘Yes.’
‘So, basically, you drowned me.’
‘Yes.’
‘To teach me a lesson.’
‘Yes.’
‘That, seeing as I’m now dead, means it’s a lesson I can’t actually learn from.’
‘Indeed.’
‘And, I got to Heaven anyway despite misunderstanding you.’
‘You did.’
‘The thing is … I had a family down there.’
‘Yes, I know. They’re miserable right now. Your widow’s drinking again. ‘
‘A really smart ten year old son.’
‘He’s already concluded that as praying to Me all day did his dad no good, clearly atheism’s the way to go. Oops. You know the real kicker – that atheist next door to you just got in the boat. He’s fine. All the atheists in your town are fine – the whole god thing only complicates an incredibly simple situation.’
‘And I had a job. I was a world-class oncologist. I cured people.’
‘Yes.’
‘I became a doctor as an expression of my faith and my God rewards me by killing me to teach me a lesson, giving my orphaned son a really great reason to renounce theism, and many people will now die because their doctor just died. If you give that rowboat story even a moment’s thought, it’s an absolutely crushing demonstration how insane you’d have to be to think the world works like that.’
‘Yeah. I knew you’d say that.’
@ Steve
LOL!
@ anyone who shed light on this question and may want to way in.
Exactly why do christians pray for people after they have died. If Im understanding chrisitan theology righ,t isnt it simply futile to pray for someone after death, if one gets into heaven based upon what they believed and how they lived while on earth?
@markbey,
Are you sure its all Christians? It might just be Catholics who for a long time believed in purgatory. So they would have been praying for those souls to be moved into heaven.
@Rynoos
Spontaneous remission is not all that uncommon. The article I link to below specifically discusses breast cancer, but I’m sure there are studies out there on other forms of cancer.
From Natural News
@ cello
cello:Are you sure its all Christians?
mark: No I may be generalizing and if a person of faith takes offence I am willing to apologize. However most funerals I see and have been to have some sort of prayer in the ceremony.
Regarding the miraculous curing of cancer:
1) Doctors are not infallible authorities. They sometimes give the wrong diagnosis.
2) Sometimes the body is able to cure or diminish cancer by itself.
3) It sometimes turns out that the miraculous cure in fact occured at the same time that the patient was receiving treatment. I would ask Rynoos if this was true in either of the five cases?
@trj
3 of the cases were before treatment, and so I will say a possible explanation is a misdiagnosis of the doctor.
The other two were well after treatment had begun and the docs had said that they could not do anything else. So, I would say it is possible that the med treatment might have finally begun to work.
However most funerals I see and have been to have some sort of prayer in the ceremony.
Not all prayers are intended to be intercessory. Some are just verbal affirmations of faith. “Dear God, I really *hope* that things are working the way I believe they work, etc..”
Of course, Jesus did tell his followers to cut it out, in any case.
Rynoos said:
“In my life, I can come up with 5 specific cases, where people I have known have been critically sick with cancer. They were specifically prayed over (don’t get cynical yet) and later the doctors ran tests and the cancer was gone. They doctors had no medical reason as to why this would happen. The Christian community around me and me, both gave credit to God for these seemingly miracles. ”
You have three cases of spontaneous remission where no medical treatment was tried. What per cent are those three in relation to all the people who have been prayed for with cancer in your circle of experience? For me, from my christian past, I would say the spontaeous remission rate was less than 1% but it’s just an educated guess.
My response is just a more wordy way of restating Eamon’s suggestion to consider confirmation bias.
Secondly, how many cases do you know of from your personal experience where miraculous healing was unabiguous — things like multiple sclirossis, resurrection, limb restoration, etc?
On a side note, when I was a pentecostal believer, there was a particular phase when leg lenthening was prominent. The traveling evangelist would have someone sit in a chair, hold her legs together “straight” out from her body. Everyone would gather round and see that one leg was slightly longer than the other one. The preacher would pray and the legs would miraculously even out. Of course, the evangelist was in fact slightly moving the legs latterally.
If prayer worked, this blog wouldn’t exist. I can only imagine how many Christians have prayed that god would smite this gathering place for evil, godless people.
If prayer worked, this blog wouldn’t exist. I can only imagine how many Christians have prayed that god would smite this gathering place for evil, godless people.
“You made-a the Pope-a look stupid! God, smite them!”
[Uncomfortable silence...]
“He’s ah cookin’ a somethin’ up…”
@ nope
nope:”Not all prayers are intended to be intercessory. Some are just verbal affirmations of faith. “Dear God, I really *hope* that things are working the way I believe they work, etc..”
mark: Well Im not talking about affirmations, Im talking about praying for someone to get to heaven after they are dead. It seems to me that you are trying to play word games.
The reason I mention these things is just to spotlight meaningless traditions that go along with so many religions of the world.
Still even if some prayers are just verbal affirmations they are still worthless in regards to dead people.
@ Elemenope
Aaaack! I have a rash on my finger! Perhaps I have been smited!
I think God’s mellowed a bit. A good smiting just ain’t what it used to be.
The reason I mention these things is just to spotlight meaningless traditions that go along with so many religions of the world.
Sometimes a person prays for another in order to make *themselves* feel better. Especially when confronted with a situation in which the feel (or actually are) powerless.
Whether that’s a good idea or not is something else entirely. But it does seem to have a function, if only a psychological one.
I think virtually all prayer is to make the person praying feel better.
@ Rynoos
Us atheists may not be able to explain everything that happen however when we come across something we don’t understand we try to figure it out logically sometimes it will take years of investigation by thousands of people to figure it out but the important thing is we don’t just say it’s the invisible man in the sky and let it go.
@ Elemenope
good one. I heard a different version to the same story.
A man pray every week for god to let him win the lottary. every single week for years the same prayer. finally the angels go to god and ask, why won’t you just let him win so we don’t have to hear his whines again and again. and god replays I was planing on letting him win years ago all he has to do is buy a ticket.
Prayer is what you do when you don’t have anything useful to contribute.
@sunny day
so you don’t pray at all.. ever?
Howitzer:
I can’t speak for sunny, but I don’t think I’ve ever prayed for anything.
I mean, on the rare occasions I’m in church with my wife’s family, I remain respectfully silent, but that’s about as close as I’ve gotten to praying.
@wintermute
not even as a kid?
‘so you don’t pray at all.. ever?’
I can’t speak for Sunny Day, but … why is that such a peculiar thought? I don’t pray. I don’t think in terms of God watching me or angels looking out for me. I don’t do anything like praying. When a family member was in hospital a couple of years ago, I hoped the doctors looked after that person, I didn’t call on a supernatural force to help out (full recovery, by the way). I think hurricanes are caused by moist air rising and low atmospheric pressure, not one of the gods being angry at lesbians.
I do, at moments of high emotion, say things like ‘oh Christ’ … but that’s no indication that I’m secretly a Christian, any more than calling today ‘Friday’ is me being a secret worshipper of Freya.
Prayer is a waste of time. Literally, that’s all it is. If there’s a natural disaster and every single Christian prayed, but one atheist spent that time donating one pint of blood, that atheist has done *infinitely* more. The Christians did nothing to help, if all they did was pray.
‘Talking things through with God, even if He doesn’t answer, was helpful to me’ … fine. But you’re not talking to God, you’re talking to the wall. Next time, just call it talking to the wall.
Not even as a kid. My parents weren’t religious,a nd those few people I knew who were, well, they were generally what the Church of England calls “Modernists”; that is, Church is a nice place to go on a Sunday, but we don’t really believe in God…
So, anyway, when I was a kid, the idea of prayer was quite alien to me.
Moving to America was quite a shock in that regard, I can tell you.
‘not even as a kid?’
I wasn’t brought up in a religious household. I’ve never had the god thing in my head.
I don’t think I ever prayed as a child. When I ended up in a church, I spent my time looking at the architecture or the other people. You’d be surprised how many people, of all ages, do the same thing. Never put my hands together, never lowered my head, never said ‘amen’. It would be hypocritical to do otherwise.
No one ever forced me to pray, as far as I recall. I don’t remember. I certainly never prayed on my own, or out of habit, or because other people around me were. I just wasn’t brought up that way.
I’ve spoken to Christians who say that having that sense of the divine is universal, everyone has it, that little children are born with it.
I wasn’t. I’m 100% sure of that. I’m not making any judgment about that – it might be an indication that there’s something wrong with me (albeit one which beggars the question as to why God would allow that particular birth defect to get past quality control). But I look at the physical universe and see plenty, I don’t need ‘something more’.
‘Moving to America was quite a shock in that regard, I can tell you.’
Ha! I did the same – I’m a Brit living in the States. The public display of religion here is just weird, isn’t it? I’ve a friend in Britain who’s an ordained Anglican minister and I knew him for ten years before I knew that.
It’s just bizarre that here I’m a radical atheist, whereas in Britain I’m literally one word away from the same worldview as most bishops. We should be nice to each other, feed the poor, think of others, not kill people, oh and there’s probably [not] a god.
In my eyes, prayer to religious folk is problem solving to atheists. We have a problem/situation that requires our thought. Instead of having an inner dialogue with God, atheists will have an inner dialogue with themselves, hashing out ideas and thoughts on their own. And religious people do that too, they just add in an imaginary extra step, which is “and God says to me…”
In the end, it’s their own thought process that’s telling them what to do, but this thought process is influenced by religious teachings, while the atheist thought process is influenced in other ways. There are exceptions, of course. But for the overly devout, that’s how I imagine it.
Also, prayer for religious folk is what we atheists call “wishing”. It’s about as effective, too.
@ Steve Jeffers
Using the Lord’s name in vain (as a form of exclamation like “Christ!” or “Jesus on a stick!”), is not really a sign of faith. It’s just a phrase in our vocabulary, very like when we say “S**t!” we don’t mean a pile of poop, just a way to express an emotion and the severity of it in a short phrase.
@sock
Great post.. I like your comparison..
You said, “And religious people do that too, they just add in an imaginary extra step”.. it is imaginary unless there really is a God
that is still a “possibility” is it not?
I’m sure atheists will accept that your god is as probable as any other god. Are you willing to accept that?
Aor hit the nail on the head.
To (most) atheists, all religions are equally silly. An actual being (Christian God) telling people what to do is as plausible to me as it is that the sun is a divine chariot, and that there’s a secret cult of people who sacrifice animals to make sure that plants grow. Should we thank this secret cult, because without their nightly sacrifices, we’d have no plants the world over? No, we should laugh at the ridiculousness of such a concept.
Just because it’s a widely held belief, that doesn’t mean that it’s right. It used to be a widely held belief that the world was flat. It used to be a widely held belief that there were several dozen Gods. It used to be a widely held belief that disease and plague was caused by God(s), instead of germs and viruses.
In the end, all religions (yes, even Christianity) will be debunked by science, as the evidence in our world history demonstrates concerning other religions and silly “it was magic!” beliefs.
I agree with Aor. I will accept that level of probability.
‘it is imaginary unless there really is a God that is still a “possibility” is it not?’
Well … a bit of sleight of hand, there. There’s got to really be a god *and* it’s got to be the one being prayed to *and* that god has to be listening *and* for some reason, despite the fact there’s a god, that it’s the one being prayed to and it’s listening, it *doesn’t actually do anything*.
‘Possibility’ is one of those useless words in this context. Yeah, it’s possible. So are a lot of things. But that’s a very thin thread to hang a belief system on.
And now we know it’s *impossible* that God created the universe six thousand years ago just for us, that Adam existed and so on. For starters.
Several years ago I got “the” call from my mother saying my father collapsed before dinner, was unconscious and was in a Life Flight to a regional hospital. I was several states away. My father was 83. My mother did not know at the time I wasn’t one of the faithful anymore. Before she hung up the phone she said, “Pray, Just pray!” I knew immediately when she told me that I would be getting another call before I could pack and get on the road, telling me he died. About three hours later I got that call.
I didn’t pray when she asked me to. I didn’t know what to pray for (nor do I think did she)…take him fast? pray for his recovery? pray he is “saved?” I understood the “pull” of prayer for her. I also knew it would do no good whatsoever.
My father lived a full, vigorous and healthy life until suddenly dying. He died the way I want to go …suddenly and without pain. He was 83 and prayer would not and did not do anything to stop it, or cause it, nor do I believe it will with any one of us.
I miss my father dearly and do wish, somehow, I could communicate with him and tell him so, but I know it does not work like that …never has and never will. I am consoled by his memory and all the things he taught me. The simplistic version of heaven with him flying around or genuflecting for eternity would embarrass him …and me. No, I am satisfied with his memory. It is enough.
I’ll give you this one, although I still believe prayer works.
For me, it’s simple – If we’re looking for the super-natural WE need to do the NATURAL and GOD will do the SUPER.
This is what I believe for Christians.
Now, for those of you atheists, this follows along with what you believe too. You just stop at the “natural” though and don’t believe in the “supernatural.” That’s ok.
I agree though, praying without action = stupid. The Bible does NOT say prayer is the “fix all” with no action on our part whatsoever. If you want to know what the Bible says and what REAL Christians are supposed to do (with regards to what the Bible teaches) I’ll be happy to tell you. And I can do it without trying to convert you.
Sorry again for yet another lame Christian illustration for you to blog about.
Carl Sagan had some words about psychic powers in one of his books. His point was that if psychic powers were real, even a slight ability to predict danger or whatever would lead to a great evolutionary advantage. Within a few generations psychic powers would be common in the human race.
Prayer would show similar effects. The religion which has functioning prayer should show significant differences in death rates, accident rates, or any other measurable effect that people commonly pray for. Even a slight increase in survival rate would show up in large amounts of data. Death bed conversions to that religion should show a measurable change in life expentancy. Even small things should be demonstrable. More kittens in houses with christian children, more hamsters live to a ripe old age. Easily measurable things. Fewer car accidents, more lottery winnings.. there should be evidence in damn near anything we could measure.
That evidence is not there. Given this silence from the evidence, don’t believers have to wonder once in a while if they aren’t falling for a hoax?
@aor
related to probability and the existence of God.. my contention is that none of us are 100% sure that our chosen deity(or lack there of in the case of the atheist) actually exist.. there is a certain amount of hope that what we believe is true is actually true..
I have no problem accepting that my “God is as probable as any other god” as you say. In fact I like that position. What is interesting on this site is that many seem to believe that their position of “no deity whatsoever” is the supreme position. It seems that your colleagues are unwilling to accept a probability that there may be a God by the way they make light of “god” people.
Are you willing to accept that your lack of deity is as probable as any other god?
@The Howitzer
“It seems that your colleagues are unwilling to accept a probability that there may be a God by the way they make light of “god” people.”
No it’s the simply fact that with zero evidence for and strong evidence against any mainstream god the probability is so close to zero the only reasonable position to take is to believe that there isn’t a god. Do you think it reasonable that I should say for example that “I believe that America exists but I also accept that there is a probability that it in actual fact it doesn’t exist”. I don’t know anyone how would actually say they can be 100% certain that a god(s) don’t exist but it doesn’t follow that you can’t believe that god(s) don’t exist.
“Are you willing to accept that your lack of deity is as probable as any other god?”
Definitely not why would you think that the probability of there being a god is some how comparable to the probability that there isn’t a god?
‘Are you willing to accept that your lack of deity is as probable as any other god?’
No.
We know the universe doesn’t look or act like the Bible tells us it does. There’s 0% probability of the Bible literally being completely true, because it tells us things that are demonstrably not true. The north wind does not live in a big shed when it’s not blowing. So … start the negotiation: which bits of the Bible are completely true, which are completely false, and where are the grey areas?
The universe looks and acts atheistic. It behaves exactly like there isn’t a god – when a hurricane or a disease hits, the devoutly religious of all faiths and atheists all get hit the same way. Scientists broadly understand the models by which the universe, the Earth, life on Earth and man appeared and there’s no need for or evidence of God in there.
What I’m prepared to accept is that human knowledge has limits – both practical and philosophical. We can’t say *for certain* that there’s no god until we’ve investigated every quantum particle in the universe … a process that quantum physics says is impossible. It’s very possible (probable, even) that we’ve all framed these questions in the wrong way. Theologians deliberately keep the definitions of ‘supernatural’ and ‘miracle’ and ‘soul’ and ‘god’ vague. In the last century or so, they’ve made Christianity into a mystery religion precisely because they know that their old model didn’t work.
But there is evidence for the atheistic universe, and that rules out a theistic one.
To my mind, there’s a possibility of a god of the loopholes – a tiny, tiny possibility. It’s not needed, but limits of language, logic and observation means you can never rule that God out. There’s a larger possibility that a God exists and has faked it up to looks like he doesn’t – that we’re living in the Matrix or in a young universe that’s been ‘aged’ like a fake antique. We’ve never seen (or at least never recognised) a ‘glitch’ in that fake, though, and if it’s the case, one day I suspect we’ll be able to. That god’s purpose is unknowable – but he’s lying to us, he’s not the Christian god, and if that’s what god is, we shouldn’t be praying to him, we should be working out a way to take him down.
But neither of those are the Christian god, they’re not something that any human being has ever worshipped or would ever want to. That God can’t hear your prayers, for example. That God didn’t create or guide the universe or mankind.
@The Howitzer
I think you may have missed an important point. All gods are equally possible means all imaginable gods are equally possible. From requiring blood sacrifice to make the sun rise to the most ludicrous new age junk. The most isolated regions of New Guinea have religions that are just as possible as yours, no matter what religion you are. I doubt you think their supernatural beliefs have any value outside of an anthropological sense, do you? So if you have a certain amount of hope that what you believe is actually true, so do those isolated islanders that wear long narrow gourds strapped to their genitalia. Exactly the same amount of hope, in fact.
On the other hand, if you take a skeptical position about all religions and all possible religions, you (or more accurately, human efforts over many many years) can build up a pattern of knowledge. Over time this can become a vast structure that can be used to show grand things about the universe itself, and many of the things in it. Things that can be shown, based on proven concepts. Never any need to appeal to the supernatural in any way.
When you combine the remarkable lack of evidence for religion, the lack of evidence for the supernatural in general, and the proven value of taking the skeptical and rational approach to all things the conclusion must be that lacking some seriously kick-ass evidence of some particular god a rational person should simply assume there are none at all.
For me, it’s simple – If we’re looking for the super-natural WE need to do the NATURAL and GOD will do the SUPER.
It seems like you don’t really understand the words you are using, but since you don’t understand them you think we don’t understand them either. Therefore you think by using them we will draw the same incorrect meanings and conclusions from them as you do.
This is what I believe for Christians.
Oh. You believe for Christians, eh? I didn’t realize other Christians needed someone else to believe for them (other than the Catholics and the Pope, perhaps)?
You just stop at the “natural” though and don’t believe in the “supernatural.” That’s ok.
That’s because there is no “supernatural”. Period. If it could be demonstrated that your god (or any god) were able to influence our Universe in any way, then by definition that god would be natural. This is really not complicated stuff to understand.
I agree though, praying
without action= stupid.There I fixed it for you.
The Bible does NOT say prayer is the “fix all” with no action on our part whatsoever.
Oh really? Well Jesus might disagree with you on that:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
- Matthew 21:21
http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm for a few dozen more.
Or just read whichever version of the bible you prefer.
If you want to know what the Bible says and what REAL Christians are supposed to do (with regards to what the Bible teaches) I’ll be happy to tell you.
Ah yes REAL Christians. I bet you can also tell us exactly what True Scotsmen are supposed to do as well, can’t you?
And I can do it without trying to convert you.
Hahahahahahah! Now that’s funny. Who said fundamentalists didn’t have a sense of humor? Not me!
‘Now, for those of you atheists, this follows along with what you believe too. You just stop at the “natural” though and don’t believe in the “supernatural.” That’s ok.’
OK in the sense of ‘the correct way of looking at things’?
I’m not all that interested in ‘supernatural’ – it’s a meaningless word. What I’m interested in is what effect the gods have on the natural world?
What do you think? Does your god affect the natural world? What has he done and how? We know he didn’t create it, or life, or man. We also know that the Bible says he did and some of his followers still claim that he did.
‘My God hears prayers’ is a natural claim, not a supernatural one. Do you believe your god can hear prayers? If so, how does that work?
@Steve Jeffers:
What?
That question is a non-sequitur.
There is no god.
Unless you’re talking about Eric Clapton in concert.
@Steve Jeffers
Sorry, my bad, I got confused with who was saying what.
Nevermind.
Given that all gods are equally likely (including all gods that no-one has ever thought of), if you believe in a god (or set of gods), and a god (or set of gods) really exists, it’s almost a certainty that they are not the same god (or set of gods). By choosing a god, you are by definition choosing falsely.
Isn’t it better to simply not choose to worship a god?