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Atheist:
Here’s an Answers in Genesis commercial where they make the claim “If you don’t matter to God, you don’t matter to anyone.” This is said while a boy points a gun at the camera:
Seems like fear-based propaganda to me. Are they trying to threaten me?
[...] (via) [...]
[...] my opinion that it is a fear-mongering, horrible message to convey, the video has been lambasted here and here and here (among other places). Video aside, however, Ham’s writing shows just how [...]
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Damn.
So the main point:
With out fear of a god’s wrathful judgment, Christians would start killing everyone?
Fear mongering propaganda only works with people that believe the propaganda. People who believe in god kill others all the time.
How is pointing to the bloody book of Genesis going to stop violence?
Of course not. Not even they would be stupid enough to think that such clips re-convert the de-converted (On a second thought, well, maybe they are).
I guess it’s pointed toward their fellow xtians (you decide whether it is the gun or the message of the clip), in order to prevent them from de-converting themselves. Intimidation is an often used tactic in totalitarian systems (“Obey our rules, or else…”), which gets more dramatic and desperate once the system approaches collapse. So that makes every new similar video a reason for us to be joyful, as it is another death scream of a doomed construct.
What the hell are they trying to say? This is one of the most ambiguous ads I’ve ever seen. I can’t even tell who the target audience might be.
“If you don’t matter to god, you don’t matter to anyone.”
That doesn’t seem like a statement aimed at athiests. Something like “If god doesn’t matter to you, you don’t matter to anyone” seems more appropriate.
As it stands I have to ask – who are they claiming doesn’t matter to god? Doesn’t god care about everyone, even those who don’t believe?
“If you don’t matter to God, you don’t matter to anyone”.
You deserve to die or be killed if you believe God does not exist or He does not love you!
I take no shame in stating I have no idea what the point of this commercial is. The kid(why a kid?) pointing a gun, out in the middle of nowhere. I guess he’s pointing it at me? So because I don’t believe in a god, a 7 year old wants to shoot me? This is really confusing.
Hmm, maybe one may become like the kid who fires a pistol, his facial expression tells something of recent past.
The clip is by AIG, a christian organisation.
Mathew 122:29
And lo the unbeliever shall have a loaded .38 special pointed in his direction, wielded by a child too small to aim effectively.
Lo, the wages of unbelief are possible, but not terribly likely, injury!
The child holding the gun appears to be a Christian. It’s hard to mistake that expression of smug superiority.
This link was pointed out to me by NAL over at Atheist Ethicist’s blog. http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/features/you-matter-to-god
from above AiG link:
Ah, so that’s why he has to command us to commit atrocities so often. Thanks for clearing that up.
Good thing that Tony Powell and the two Asian murderers (the article doesn’t dare to reference these three) were God-fearing, God-hearing men then, just following their God-given morality…
from above AiG link:
Ah, so that’s why he has to command us to commit atrocities so often. Thanks for clearing that up.
Good thing that Tony Powell and the two Asian murderers (the article doesn’t dare to reference these three) were God-fearing, God-hearing men then, just following their God-given morality…
But of course, insanity is also the cause of sin, i.e. their own fault. For disobeying an order. Sentenced by – not God, don’t get this wrong kids, he loves you – but Teh Law, which God just couldn’t help create and condemn any transgressor to everlasting torture. Not his fault.
Hey it makes sense if you account for the apparent fact that God is just as insane as these killers.
It’s subtle, as in: only makes sense if you already accept most of the premises of the makers of the clip. I think what they’re trying to say is that if there is no God, then there’s no transcendent source of value, therefore everything is worthless, including you. The idea that we might derive value just from the fact that life can be enjoyable, and part of what makes it enjoyable is having family and friends that you love and love you, and there’s neat stuff to do like find out how the universe works, is beyond these people’s comprehension.
It’s a kind of hate-mongering: really, they despise humanity; they’re only willing to put up with it on their own terms.
Kid kinda looks like a pussy.
I reckon I could take him.
I am guessing it is based off the apologetic argument that morality only exists because God exists, and then, we know God exists because we know right from wrong.
Could it be the ad writer’s dramatic way of saying that? “You know it would be morally wrong for this kid to shoot you, therefore you must admit Christianity is true.” Not that the ad logically makes that case, but if the ad writer presupposed the reader was thinking that way, maybe it made sense to him/her?
The corallary, since it is from AIG, would be, “Since you know it would be wrong for the kid to kill you, you must accept that dinosours and humans lived at the same time, in harmony before the fall, and there was plenty of room on Noah’s ark for the hibernating T-rex.”
Started my comment prior to Eamon Knight’s comment. Ditto, ‘cept he said it better.
wait. can’t you extrapolate that to mean God doesn’t exist?
See, they believe everything matters to God. Cause if we didn’t matter to God, we aren’t going to be burning in Hell(for our own good, or something).
Therefore if God does not care about athiests, then he can’t be all-knowing and all-loving, and is therefore not God.
Buggers can’t even make threats that match their worldview.
Hey! I think I know this kid! Wife-beater shirt, white, blond hair. He looks like all the other paranoid, god-fearing, gun freaks out in these parts!
Are they trying to threaten you? Of course. Religion is about control – controlling you through fear.
I think this add is very very creepy.
It can be misunderstood so easily (and probably will by some christian wacko nut job).
I see a shooting coming up where they’ll claim.. “but gawd don’t care’bout dem ajtheists.. an’the commercial told me to shoot’m!”
Wow. Even I can’t find any sense in that one…
What the hell is the point of that ad?
Very biblical, also. Do xians ever read their own holy book?
The logic here’s confusing me. How is the value that other people put in me negated if God doesn’t care about me?
Plus, it doesn’t even seem to be targeting athiests. We think he doesn’t exist, not that we don’t matter to Him. I mean, the opinions of an invisible sky fairy are irrelevant to me. The commercial just seems to be suggesting that there are people out there that God doesn’t care about, and I think that goes against a fair number of their doctrines.
Jeez radical Christians… If you’re gonna take the time to put together propaganda, at least think it through first.
Isn’t a Christian ad showing a handgun a bit insensitive, given that recently we’ve had news of several religious people commit murder-suicides?
‘I had to send my son to heaven and myself to Hell,’ suicide note says
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30109090/
Anti-Evolution Fundamentalist Youtuber Anthony Powell Killed Girl, Himself
http://www.wikio.com/video/1015368
I have heard lots of ignorant people spew stupid stuff allmy life. The anti-evolution fundimentalist video posted by James, this guy Anthony Powell takes the cake. I wonder how he was supposed to minister to people when his actions and language are inconsistant to everything I’ve ever been told by the church?
AiG is not threatening anyone, just being stupidly paternalistic. They are assuming that without a care from a God, we would all just kill ourselves and nothing would matter. With that (fallacious) assumption and the observation that we are not shooting ourselves like that, it follows that God exists and we all matter to him.
“And what about Africa? The Middle East? South America? Around the world, senseless violence destroys lives because some people no longer value life. Is there any hope? Is there any truth? Are there answers?”
Isn’t violence in the middle east traditionally involve very religious people who belive god created the world and behead evolutionists.
Nice way to positively encourage people towards your faith there…while it may not actually be a case of them saying ‘Join us or we’ll get our kids to shoot you’ – it’s still ‘You’re a worthless lump of flesh without our imaginary friend’ which -yunno, for anyone insecure about their dwindling faith and still traumatised by years of fire and brimstone, is a really good tool for reassurance and comfort.
‘Thinking of leaving our little cult? Well – just remember that no one will ever love you if you do.’
Well, so much for “God loves you anyway!”
:P
I find this to be a refreshingly honest and straightforward opinion of how the fundies feel about we heathens.
If the answers are in Genesis (as they seem to claim), then it is RIGHTEOUS to summarily murder the infants of the “wicked” (Gen 7:21), to slaughter animals to glorify God (Gen 15: 8-9), to believe the Creator of the Universe is *really* concerned about 2 square inches of your penis (Gen 17:23+), to offer up your daughters for gang rape (Gen 19:8), to once again murder infants because they are tangentially related to naughty people (Gen 19:24, 38:7, 41:56)), to engage in drunken incest (Gen 19:30-38), to slit a child’s throat and burn his body as proof of your obedience to Yahweh (Gen 22:2-13), to own slaves (Gen 24:35), to allow men to have a stable of sexual concubines (Gen 25:6, 26:34, 31:17, 32:22), and finally, to BURN women to DEATH who have sex outside of marriage (Gen 38:24).
Yep. Lots of good answers in that piece of crap.
“If you don’t matter to god, you don’t matter to anyone.”
Since I matter to my grandmother then by modus tollens I matter to god? What a bizarre principle.
Forgive me for not scanning the comments before posting this, so it may have already been said, but isn’t one of the basic tenets of Christianity that _all_ people matter to God, even sinners and nonbelievers? And yet they point a gun at me for not believing. Sheesh.
The best examples of crazy religious folk are the ones who are more dedicated to imposing their beliefs on others that they forget what they are supposed to believe.
believing it.defending it.proclaiming it… with a .38
For those who said that the ad was saying people would go around killing people without belief in God, you were right.
HT to The Google:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/features/you-matter-to-god
“Why do young men walk into schools and start shooting?”
…
“Those who feel that neither they nor their actions matter to God lose their motivation to care for the lives of others or for their own life.”
Oh, it’s worse:
“As a society, we reap the consequences of the unquestioned acceptance of the belief in evolution every day. It diminishes your worth and reduces human beings from being “made in the image of God” to being mere players in the game of survival of the fittest.”
Not that I agree with the tenet either way, but the amazing thing to me is the way they equate evolution with atheism. Like they are the same thing, and Evolution is the great Satanic Beast. So it is not enough to be a bible believing Christian, you also have to reject evolution. Really a statement of, “You have to believe what we believe.”
But the video makes no claim about whether or not the target audience believes in god or not. Unless it’s saying that if you don’t believe in god then you don’t matter to him.
What does the bible have to say about what god thinks of those who don’t believe in him?
With out fear of a god’s wrathful judgment, Christians would start killing everyone?
I’ve heard that case made – its usually made hand-in-hand with the idea that atheists can’t have a moral code because only religion can give you a moral code (or some variant thereof). But yeah, I’ve had religious folks tell me point blank that if there was no God there’d be nothing to stop them from murdering other people, or burning down their neighbor’s house, or whatever. Scary stuff, though I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they were speaking rhetorically to create an unassailable argument for why religion is needed, rather than stating their actual beliefs.
But frankly, if the only thing stopping someone from going on a murder spree is the idea that a Sky Father of some sort is going to punish them for it, I hope they keep their religion. Keeping sociopaths in check may be one of the few good uses of religion I’ve seen.
Using fear to get christians to evengelize their kids?
Ah, it makes more sense now. Wow, that ad is a *complete fail* if they were aiming for evolution as the big bad.
That “argument” is utterly and completely stupid.
A friend of mine once said, “If I evolved from slime, how can I be worth anything?”
I replied, “Is slime really any worse than dirt?”
The kid look underage to handle a real gun. If it is a real gun, the parents might be in trouble with the law.
Nice one. I think I’ll borrow that. :)
Oh where was that wit when I sat through a whole sermon on the worthless-ness of rising up out of a pond with all the other single-celled creatures. Gonna use that one now a lot. Perfect. Needs to get filed under the unacceptable responses to Christian cliches post and used. Frequently.
‘ But yeah, I’ve had religious folks tell me point blank that if there was no God there’d be nothing to stop them from murdering other people, or burning down their neighbor’s house, or whatever. ‘
Yes, God has stopped murder, arson and rape.
He has even banned abortion and drive-by shootings.
These things have been stopped.
Ask any Christian.
You might matter to God, but I wouldn’t cancel your health insurance or fire or theft or car insurance any time soon.
Erm… I’ve never read that anywhere… Where did this conclusion come from?
“I wouldn’t cancel your health insurance or fire or theft or car insurance any time soon.”
50′s wager:
Every night I pray to god,
But he ain’t say nothin’ back.
I know he protectin’ me,
But I’ll still stay with my gat (gun).
ok…
[IRONY ON]
Very biblical, also
[IRONY OFF]
Oops. I totally misread your comment. Nvm.
“If God doesn’t matter to you, anyone doesn’t matter to you” doesn’t have the same ring to it, and is more obviously false.
Two is hardly “several”. And even if there were a positive correlation, unless there is a reasonable causation hypothesis (and honestly, I can’t think of one), it is inappropriate to imply that religiosity and murder-suicide behavior are more than coincidentally linked.
See somegreencat’s posted link above.
I think belief in one’s afterlife diminishes rational reluctance to endanger one’s earthly life, which does present a correlation between religiosity and murder/suicide behavior.
But of course you can argue that my belief is false.
> …if there were a positive correlation…
According to at least one study there is a positive correlation between theistic belief and violence. Back in 2005, the Journal of Religion and Society published the results of a study that attempted to correlate theistic belief and non-belief with a variety of social indicators (murder, abortion, STD infection rates, etc.) in 17 developed nations. With respect to every social indicator examined (except suicide), believers fared worse than non-believers.
(Study can be found here: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html )
I feel there’s a degree of correlation. The militia movements and “patriot” types who commit most of America’s home-grown acts of terror usually label themselves as being primarily and uber alles:
1) White; and
2) Christian.
Admittedly the “Christian” angle is sometimes the cherry on a $#17 sundae, but it’s a major part of the identities of these whackos. So a case might be made.
However, I tend to believe that crazy people go for religion anyway. If you’re already hearing voices wouldn’t you prefer to believe that one of them was a god rather than, say, the Sta-Puft Marshmallow Man?
And when it comes to crazy, … Well even the mainstream right wingers like Beck, Coulter, and Savage–the voices of their movement to the world–are dangerously mad.
AMEN! All hail 50 Cent!
I am pretty sure — not totally sure — that the message is actually “If God doesn’t matter to this kid with a gun, do you matter to this kid with a gun?”, i.e. evolution leads to atheism leads to chaos.
You nailed it.
one of the hardest parts of letting go of religious beliefs is letting go of that “eternal life” piece. It was such a happy ending for all the caca that might come one’s way down here on planet earth. But then, when you come to grips with the notion that “this is it”, you figure you better make it worth all you can and really, but truly, value life.
Now then, here’s a funny twist: (and sorry to go off topic here, but it’s come up on the Evil God thread now and then) since most non-believers think this is it, let’s do our best, conversely, many christians want to argue that “if this is it” than people may as well just “murder and steal and rape” since there is no afterlife and no accounting for actions done here on earth. What is up with that thinking? Latent desires? What? I don’t get the thinking that the only thing stopping someone from being a complete psychopath is that God is watching and heaven awaits .
If that is so, then in answer to Daniel’s question “Are they threatening me?”: no, AIG is not claiming they have a gun pointed at you, they are claiming you have a gun pointed at them.
Yes, the idea that “this is all there is” should make it more special, not less. Right?!
Only if you presuppose that it is special at all. To a Theist, the existence and attention of God is insurance that things ultimately matter, whereas without God there is an anarchism of value with the possibility of nihilism.
I contend that is an irrational worldview. Which is not news to anyone.
The acknowledgment of the possibility of value nihilism is irrational? How so?
No, I mean the idea that “external meaning must exist” is irrational. It implicitly assumes that God must exist; in my opinion “there are objective morals” and “there is a God” are logically equivalent. The idea leaves two choices: God exists, or everything is nothing (or worse than nothing). “Good Christian” and “murderous lying rapist”.
This may well be the theist perspective, but I consider it irrational because it poses at least two false choices, one implicit and one explicit.
Rephrase of earlier comment:
Rationally, the idea that “this is all there is” should make “this” more valuable in the perspective of the speaker, not less valuable.
Confusion enters when we introduce “value from a cosmic perspective”, which I don’t believe exists, but is in any case not relevant to my comment. I’m talking about the value of this life from the perspective of a hypothetical human Christian. And I’m assuming they assign some value to their life independent of whatever value they believe God assigns to their life.
Why must the existence of value universals be parasitic upon a deity? I’m not seeing how they have to be related at all.
Isn’t that necessarily so? Values are subjective, assigned by one or more entities. Universal values require a universal entity. Asking “why?” presupposes there is something to ask, something that can potentially answer. I don’t understand the concept of a value universal that does not require a universal perspective; to me it sounds like an opinion that no one has ever thought of, or a movie that was not captured with a recording device… such a thing cannot be.
What do I not understand?
Values are subjective, assigned by one or more entities. Universal values require a universal entity.
You overlook the possibility that value may be intrinsic, not externally assigned. If that is the case, then the requirement you posit for universal values falls away. It is as possible that moral sentences have a truth content as required by metaphysical necessity, and we are simply (as of now) incapable of perceiving the moral axioms necessary to build a logic to test the truth content of normative statements.
This is a beginning survey of the notion.
Aha! I suspected the source of confusion was my failure to properly define “value”. The definition I was going by is “worth of something assigned by something else”. You are suggesting things may have intrinsic worth. I find that a little less incomprehensible.
However, I do not overlook that possibility, I reject it. Moral realism can only be sustained by a supernaturalistic worldview, which is precisely my original objection. Let me know if moral realists get around to coming up with facts that can be observed and tested. It may be true that moral sentences have objective truth content and that humanity will someday become capable of perceiving the moral axioms necessary to build a logic to test the truth content of normative statements. But as far as you and I know, it’s just a reasonably well-constructed and internally-consistent idea. I assign very little value to that.
Well, of course human *perceptions* of value will be relative, regardless of whether underlying value-facts exist or not. But that’s not the problem.
The problem is that the inability to correctly intuit value facts, if they exist, has actual practical consequences. Theists (and moral realists in general) fear that without value-facts, value has no normative force outside the individual valuing–an unsustainable circumstance in a social species.
And that fear is not, strictly speaking, irrational. It may end up being *wrong*, but it seems to follow clearly from grounded assumptions.
My comment was explicitly confined to human perception.
Er, it wasn’t explicit until I rephrased it, I didn’t mean that as any kind of criticism.
‘Thinking of leaving our little cult? Well – just remember that no one will ever love you if you do.’
i can think of some people that will always love you. they’re called hookers and if you got the cash, they got the love.
but on a serious note, wtf? why am i being murdered by a child? is it because i don’t believe in god or is it because he doesn’t believe in god? do we both no believe in god? and why is it always a male? if memory serves me, i do recall that females have the necessary physical abilities to shoot at unbelievers.
That they fared better on suicide rate frustrates the original hypothesis, that theistic belief in an afterlife would cause a person to be less likely to value their own life in favor of that afterlife.
It is a very common belief that suicide — irrespective of any details — guarantees that you’re going to Hell. This exception does not frustrate the original hypothesis.
Well, it does, because the original hypothesis was in the context of murder-suicides. The hypothesis has two elements, one hidden. First, that the afterlife would cause a devaluing of physical life. Second, that that devaluing is causative of a differential of behavior. It’s the second part where it really comes apart, since even if the afterlife devalues life, another aspect of holding the belief system (e.g. committing suicide means bad things will happen to you) has effects such that the original purported cause doesn’t have the predicted effect.
Okay, maybe just murders. (Taking another person’s life is endangering your own life; mortality is a natural disincentive to kill without a cause that society deems “just”.)
However, consider that in the above example, the perpetrator thought his victim was going to Heaven and he himself was going to Hell.
Also, we’re talking about Christians, I think. What if your religion says that martyrs will be rewarded in the afterlife? That their families will be rewarded in the afterlife? That martyrs are holier than the most devout “mere” adherents?
So they are claiming that I have a gun pointed at them by putting out an ad with a gun pointed at me? I still think this is ridiculous.
Yes, it is hamfisted, but the kid with the gun is supposed to be an atheist. The target audience is probably not atheists.
Which is exactly my point. It’s aimed at the xtians. Don’t you dare become an atheist. Atheists are evil… immoral… they even eat babies!!!
They just scare people into not freeing themselves from their particular brand of insanity.
…and that’s just Genesis!
I would find the bible to be such an entertaining and delightful fiasco of disturbing lies, senseless violence, and illogical contradictions
IF
it wasn’t being used as an actual guide to living by so many idiots.
Stupid Metro, forgot to drop links:
Wikipedia on Christian terrorism
Orcinus, one of the best writers on racism and the right in the US.
Oh, and out of interest:
Dirty Ollie’s ba-ack!