Michael asks:
I recently went from Christianity to Agnosticism, and have taken a lot of heat for it from family friends. They really attempt to make me feel extremely bad for the way I believe. I am not sure where they see it is right to treat other people this way, but nonetheless, nothing will change the way they think.
How you deal with criticism, especially from people who are close to you?
This is a situation that many of us have to deal with. Here is my advice:
Don’t Return Criticism
This seems obvious, but it’s easy to forget. When someone criticizes us, we want to criticize them in return — or at least complain about them. Fight that urge. It doesn’t solve anything and creates a vicious circle.
Be Sympathetic
Remember that you probably once thought like they do. You know how they feel and why — they’re trying to help you in their misguided way. This should make you sympathetic instead of angry, which means you’ll be happier and less likely to say things you’ll regret.
Talk to Them Privately
Pullquote: Explain that social pressure and bullying is not going to change your mind, because you reject Christianity for intellectual reasons, not relational.
If a family member or friend is constantly pressuring you and/or making barbed comments, have a private conversation with them about it. Tell them their methods are ineffective and damaging to your relationship.
Explain that you love talking and debating, but social pressure and bullying is not going to change your mind, because you reject Christianity for intellectual reasons, not relational.
Disagree Calmly
Whenever you get into an argument, never raise your voice. Listen to what they have to say, consider it, and respond calmly. If they get angry, ask them also to be calm. This keeps the tone civil and keeps things from getting out of hand. If things get uncomfortable, insert a joke to lighten the mood.
Emphasize Your Open-Mindedness
You are open to believing anything if there is evidence for it — tell them that again and again. And be sure to act on that open-mindedness. They won’t criticize you if you are willing to seriously consider what they have to say.
Admit When You’re Wrong
Pullquote: It’s hard to criticize someone who is willing to admit they’re wrong.
Whenever you realize you are wrong, admit it. It’s hard to criticize someone who is willing to admit they’re wrong. It also makes it easier for others to admit they are wrong. As Dale Carnegie said:
You will never get into trouble by admitting that you may be wrong. That will stop all argument and inspire your opponent to be just as fair and open and broad-minded as you are. It will make him want to admit that he, too, may be wrong.
Don’t Tell Them They’re Wrong
I don’t think anyone has ever changed their mind because someone said, “You’re wrong!” That doesn’t change minds — it closes them. It puts people on the defensive. It hurts their pride. It also makes them dislike you.
Instead, use tact. Try to understand things from their perspective. Ask them to explain their beliefs and why they hold them. Perhaps through questioning you will show them their position is illogical or cannot be supported by facts. But don’t just tell them they are wrong. That’s an easy way to make an enemy.
Listen, Listen, Listen
Don’t be a bore — you know, the guy with the inflated ego who loves the sound of his own voice. If you want someone to listen to you, you must listen to them. Don’t interrupt to interject your witty insight or fact correction. Have the respect to listen to others the way you want them to listen to you.
Focus on Areas of Agreement
Pullquote: Instead of emphasizing where you disagree, emphasize where you agree.
Always end on a note of agreement. You may not agree with them about the resurrection of Jesus, but you both can agree that it is a hard thing to believe — even Thomas doubted, after all. You can agree that it is good to question things and make sure there is sufficient evidence to believe in it. And so on.
Instead of emphasizing where you disagree, emphasize where you agree.
Love Them Anyway
Life is too short to make enemies of friends. If possible, ignore their vices and enjoy their virtues.
What’s Your Advice?
What do you do in these situations? Do you have any advice that might be helpful to those who have family or friends pressuring and/or criticizing them?
Wow – this was great. I’ve been reading a lot of these blogs lately, and as I read this I realized that the thoughts I’ve been having about atheism and what I would say about it if provoked has gotten an edge and gotten nastier and more righteous. This really helped me put it back in perspective.
It’s a hell of a lot easier when you live a thousand miles away and have already “broken the ice” (so to speak) by coming out of the closet during college. At this point, I’d have to rob a bank or be the Craigslist Killer to shock my family.
Though the shame of robbing a bank is debateable these days, surely, since you’d get a bigger haul from the office stationery cupboard?
A wonderful article Daniel.
I’d add: don’t take it too seriously and don’t be defensive.
If they are not pursuing rational arguments, feel free to kindly laugh at their statements and tell them “ok, you are right” even if it’s obvious you don’t agree, and maybe hug them, or put an hand on their shoulder in a warm, friendly way.
Accept them the way they are and don’t try to convince them of anything, actions will speak for you.
…feel free to kindly laugh at their statements and tell them “ok, you are right” even if it’s obvious you don’t agree, and maybe hug them, or put an hand on their shoulder in a warm, friendly way.
LOL. And <>
Oh I don’t know about that laughing thing. Did that once and can say it went over very bad. I think that is when I completely lost any chance of showing a co-worker that many of his views very extreme and in the wrong.
I like the advise in this blog just wish it was as easily applied as it is to read or write. The part I have the hardest time with is not telling someone they are wrong.
This is all pretty great advice. I had to learn much of these tactics through trial and error, but you have nailed the ‘attitude’ portion perfectly. I would add to it a few things, though. Criticism from family and friends can be tough, however, as you pointed out there are ways to turn it into a more positive experience. I think that this can lead to more of an open 2-way dialogue. You might be able to use this as a springboard to a variety of outcomes. At the very least, your values and motives will be better understood and respected. But maybe you can even lead them down the path to their own personal deconversion. Someone close to me helped frame the questions and arguments that got me to do my own research. This was painful and slow but that is why your post is an excellent guide to civility.
If you do get into a calm intellectual debate, there are some basic concepts to understand.
1) Know exactly what camp they fall in, be it YEC, OEC, theistic evolution, etc. Also know their denomination, and the contemporary cultural impact it might have on them.
This will help you tailor your arguments to them specifically. For example, YEC Christians have some easily debated beliefs about the age of the universe (mention how far away stars are, and how long their light would take to reach us, and be prepared for the ‘decay of c argument’), and stick to Noah’s Ark (read a few documents on flood geology/biology from talk.origins to prepare).
As a special note, if they are professed Non-denominational Christians, consider them most likely to fit in (culturally) somewhere between Southern Baptist and Evangelical. They are tough, well-read (well from the Christian Bookstore), and systematically mis-informed debate opponents. I find that this group has a tendancy to get offended easily, so maintaining a civil discourse is an extra-delicate task. But if both sides are genuinely interested in talking about the issues, don’t give up. I was one of these people (YEC to boot!)
2) Even when they launch into an argument that you are very familiar with, and will be easy to debunk, do not interrupt them. Let them finish it, and politely debunk it thirty seconds later. If you interrupt them, you are being rude, and they might get mad or mirror the behavior. Admittedly, you already touched upon this in the original post, but its especially hard to fight the urge to interrupt a sentence when you have heard it so much that you can finish it for them.
3) Know the person’s familiarity with science and logic. Don’t throw phrases like ‘ad hominem’ ‘ad hoc’ at Grandmom. Maybe many of your friends and family will understand, or be shown easily, but many will not.
4) Know how they are going to argue ahead of time.
If they are talking in broad and general categories, its helpful to arm yourself with ‘problem of evil’, ‘russel’s teapot’, ‘god’s infinite regression’, etc…
If they are citing specific scientific-sounding arguments (Creationists/IDiots most likely), 99.999% of their potential arguments are in the free, online index to creationist claims. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html
5) If they offer to give you a book that will ‘explain it all’ or ‘explain it better’, definitely accept the book.
First of all, read it. It will take you some time, but you will once again have a better understanding of what misconceptions they have. Proove to them you’ve read it by pointing out several examples of flawed logic or science. This will not be very hard, most of their ‘modern’ christian science books have embarrassing bibliographies, with few or no science refrences before 1950 (sometimes even 1900).
Second of all, offer your own book. But tailor your selection to them. Creationists/IDiots should probably read something like ‘Why Evolution is True’ – Jerry Coyne (2009), or ‘Ancestor’s Tale’ Richard Dawkins. But maybe your conversation would be better supplemented by ‘God is not Great’ – Hitchens, ‘End of Faith’ -Harris, or ‘God Delusion’ Dawkins. Its up to you to decide what approach would be best. If worse comes to worse, and you don’t think that they will even read your book, or that they would be offended, offer up a non-sensical humorous book like ‘The Gospel According to the Flying Spaghetti Monster’
—
Overall though, I really liked this post. My suggestions might even be inappropriate for what you were going for, and debate tactics have definitely been covered more extensively and eloquently elsewhere. But maybe this was helpful.
I really like how you fleshed out these ideas and something that is really needed for many people is how to have this discussion.
In my own family I am the only atheist and everyone else is quite religious (my brother is a pastor). I have found that it is best not to have these conversations in front of the whole family because it turns into a me vs. everyone argument, which just becomes escalated.
I remember one incident that occurred when I was having an age of the earth discussion with my mother (who obviously has never thought about these things). When i asked her how old the earth was…her eyes got huge, she stammered and said: 2000 years. Then her eyes were darting around the room for help, which came quickly from my seminary educated brother. Its just shocking that someone can actually believe the earth is only 2000 years old…but we never got to really talk about it because of the group mentality. I just had to send her some information to read later. ;)
Point being…try to have these types of conversations one one one…it will make it more personal and less inflammatory. It will also help you really discuss the important topics.
I am also the only atheist in my family. Yes, one on one is definitely the only way to go. I also think one on one email sessions can be done effectively. Though at the time of my deconversion, Email had yet to go mainstream.
2000 years though? Did she really think that Earth started with Jesus? I bet she didn’t think it all the way through, and like you said, she relied on others to help her ‘win’ against the skeptic. Your story is a perfect example of why to avoid group discussion (in most cases.)
Just an awesome name – Japanther = genius.
i have to admit, I stole this name. It’s my favorite band (:
thx tho.
This is excellent advice. I find it very difficult to do and am only marginally successful.
On the other hand, what happens in practice is that people launch several arguments at once, so if you hold fire, it becomes increasingly difficult to address every point.
I think this is a great rule, but that to follow it, you might have to be assertive about dealing with points in order.
In my experience, this itself can unfairly come across as closed-mindedness or intolerence or poor argument.
So true, Iatsot. You definitely can’t let them Gish Gallop away from you.
And yes it really is unfortunate that this might still come off as intolerant. But then maybe, use a different tactic, like take the conversation over to email. Giving you time to answer every question/argument when a spoken venue has inherent limitations. Either way, the contents of the Daniel’s original post should somewhat minimize this effect.
I also find this very difficult, because I want to correct presuppositions and incorrect thoughts right away. Usually something is thrown out that is blantantly wrong and then an argument is built off of that faulty statement. Thats why I jump in sometimes.
I’ve considered, if I know I am going to have a discussion like this, taking a pad of paper and just taking notes while the personn talks so that I can address all the things they throw out without inturrupting…but then it seems like it just becomes impersonal.
This has to be the best post you’ve ever made, Daniel. So very well said, and I think you hit most of the major issues.
I post here mostly when I disagree with stuff… and I need to make sure I acknowledge it when I do agree.
I agree with what you’ve said here on every level, and I commend you for your honesty and transparency.
Here’s hoping that people on both sides of this debate take your advice — it would make for a much more peaceful, harmonious society.
I appreciate that, thanks!
Great words, my friend. I needed that.
Wow Daniel! This is great advice!
I agree that this is excellent and welcome advice. I have a couple of comments though, which I hope might be helpful:
1. Don’t Return Criticism
I agree with Daniel’s reasoning here in general, but suggest that arguing with people can be useful. Sometimes this means criticism. I’d say don’t criticise for the sake of criticism or because you feel hurt, but do criticise if it provokes discussion that helps you learn more, without causing too much discord. I suspect that few people become atheists or agnostics overnight and criticism in the right place, done senstively, can be a useful platform for clarifying one’s position. In other words, I completely endorse this as a rule of thumb, but I think there are exceptions to that rule that potentially have great rewards. Just…..be careful when you break the rule.
2. Talk to Them Privately
Your boundaries might have changed when you left religion behind. Close family members and friends might not realise this. They might not understand if you are now offended by certain things they say or do. Bear this in mind when you talk to them: what you are doing is establishing new boundaries and explaining to them why new boundaries are now necessary.
3. Emphasize Your Open-Mindedness
In practice, this is not easy. *Everyone* thinks they are open minded, even the most objectively closed-minded people you can think of. Some people believe they are open-minded because they don’t go out and murder homosexuals. Again, this comes down to an establishment of boundaries (at least among the people you care about). But then, what does ‘open-mindedness’ mean anyway? It isn’t about sucking up other people’s views, it’s about having a reliable way to choose between what does and doesn’t pass the bullshit test. This is really what Daniel was saying: I’m just saying (probably needlessly) that this is not easy in practice.
4. Don’t Tell Them They’re Wrong
As a rule, I agree. However, in the spirit of setting and maintaining boundaries, it is sometimes important to tell loved ones that you cannot agree with them on certain points. Personally, I wouldn’t bring up such a list apropos of nothing, but I neither would I sweep abhorrent statements under the carpet. If a loved one told me that homosexuality was evil, I would have to tell them that they were wrong, morally and factually. There’s no need to invite controversy, but sometimes it might be better to let people know where you stand than to shy away from it.
5. Focus on Areas of Agreement
Again, in general, this is excellent advice and I would strive toward it whenever possible. However, in my experience, it is sometimes better to start with areas of disagreement and work from there. Why? Well an example is that some people are simply horrified by the concept of an atheist. They can’t get past the idea that atheists are imoral and even evil. While its a great strategy to focus on the things you agree on despite your theological differences, that is not always a good way to get them to accept that you are an atheist. Some people will certainly think that you are a closet theist, going through a phase and will therefore not respect what you say. I think there also needs to be a focus on areas of disagreement: I believe most of what you do about morality, BUT i don’t believe in god…for example.
6. Love Them Anyway
This is certainly excellent advice. I have a poor relationship with my parents because they disapprove of my atheism. However, nothing changed on my part: I love them as much as I ever did. I don’t know whether their feelings toward me have changed or not and to be honest, I don’t care all that much. It won’t change my feelings toward them. Nobody said love had to be either reciprocated or unconditional.
Daniel’s advice is great. In practice, there are bound to be complications and I suppose I’m saying that communities like this, with similar experiences, can helo on the specific issues.
“You will never get into trouble by admitting that you may be wrong. That will stop all argument and inspire your opponent to be just as fair and open and broad-minded as you are.”
I don’t know about that. In my experience, there are a lot of people who’ll use your admission of error as ammo for their attacks. You admit you’re wrong and they keep telling you that if you’re wrong about one thing, you’re probably also wrong about everything else. And keep reminding you that you were wrong every chance they get.
When you see mistakes as leverage, you have no incentive to admit you’re wrong about something too.
You MAY be wrong and you are wrong have very different meanings when you are speaking about science. There is not an absolute truth, and you are open to new evidences to change your opinion. Being sure (specially about things that you belief without a reasonable explanation) is what differences them from you.
It’s possible for all of us to be wrong, and in reality the world was created some minutes ago, as our memories, by a god who wanted to deceive us.
Another important point here is that, even if you are wrong, that doesn’t mean they are correct
I’ve seen, a few times, people taking the very possibility that it might be wrong as proof that it’s wrong… after all, God’s Truth is Absolute and Eternal, whereas science is fallible. So I’m not sure that admitting you might be wrong will always make your counterpart (not opponent, particularly if they’re a loved one) admit the same thing. You’d have to think about it in the specific instance.
Once again, great post Daniel.
I’d like to suggest that your post can apply to my somewhat unique situation of being an atheist in the military. I have encountered some situations where I have had to stand up for prayers, or go to unrelated secular training in our chapels, mandatory christmas parties, etc… but for the most part I’m sure its roughly similar to the experiences civilians go through. With one possibly major exception: the military has a policy that seniors ‘get to know’ their subordinates really well; understanding them as a person is part of the Total Soldier Concept. A few of my direct supervisors have noticed books I’ve been reading, or even invited me to their church services because of this policy.
It might seem easy to just politely refuse, but it isn’t.
1) Its hard to get promoted past a certain point without a lot of help from your higher-ups.
2) I don’t want to just refuse, I want to engage.
Luckily, I use the methods you posted already, so I am glad to say that even when my fundamentalist higher-ups clashed with me, it has resulted in greater respect and friendship (so far, anyways.)
I know that in the long run, this wont always be the case. But I don’t want to crap up your comments with way too many long-winded posts, so I’ll save my reasons for a pessimistic outlook for a more relavant time.
(Coincidentally, at this very moment, I’m listening to a high-rank chaplain on a video-teleconfrence mindlessly incorprate sports into some vague feel-good message. I have to sit through this kind of stuff a lot, but I don’t feel persecuted or anything, its just funny timing.)
First off, thanks for your service.
I’m also in National Service, but of a very different kind, as an AmeriCorps member. I’m considering joining the National Guard when my current year of service is over.
I wonder, as part of getting to know your colleagues and higher-ups, wouldn’t there always be something to disagree about, even if it weren’t religion?
I guess I’m one to think that religion or no religion, there will always be cultural differences that are incredibly important to a stranger that you will inevitably know nothing about — couldn’t that be just as much a source of conflict as religion?
Well, this is kind of a tough question to answer, my friend. Let me say this ahead of time though, if you don’t ‘need’ the military for personal reasons (financial, college, addiction, price on your head, etc..) I tend to discourage intellectuals and close friends from joining. I’m not going to get specific here, but I ‘needed’ the army ;). I’ll be glad to go further about the aspect of joining in general with you via email, but for now, I’ll move on to your tough question.
There are only a few things that are really disagreed upon in my experience. Homosexuality, religion, and politics (in that order, strangely). Sports doesn’t count. Race nearly never is an issue. Class-based bias is handled by the automatic sorting of rich people into the officer ranks (the ones you have to salute. they already have 4 year or higher degrees), and the rest are enlisted (most people).
So, it really boils down to your views on homosexuality, religion, and politics. Also, on how much these issues mean to you, and how vocal you are. So for me personally, I clash on all three. I’m a straight man, but I view homosexual rights as the next civil rights movement, with many gay friends male and female serving just as adequately as me. You already get my hang ups with religion. Politics is less severe because most of us that are vocal are Obama voters. Though, even if you are not, its split relatively evenly, unlike religion and homosexuality.
So yes, there are other things. But no, there isn’t some endless list of things that ‘humans will always disagree on’
BTW, You seem too smart for the military, but you might get/need something out of it. I am active duty, and it’s more than a full time job. It’s also a constant exercise in restraint. You have to learn how to follow even the most flawed and/or incomplete orders almost daily. For example, imagine a gravel driveway. Now a Drill SGT. is all mad at nothing. He says “LEESAN ERE PRI’IT(private), GO SORT THEM ROCKS! HURRY UPPPPP!” You might be asking yourself ‘How the fuck do I sort rocks?’ Well don’t worry about it, just run over there and kick them around and bend over and pick some up for 30 minutes. You did good. But here comes another Drill SGT: “HEY PRI’IT, WHO TOLD YOU TO SORT THOSE ROCKS?!? GO PUT THEM BACK!!!” Yeah, you have to do it again for 30 minutes, even though none of this made any sense. So, National Guard/Reserve have a huge advantage, they get to deal with this wayyy less frequently, and still reap all the healthcare/dental/bonuses/college money. If you MUST join, join the reserves/nat’l guard. Airforce is easiest, then Navy, then Army (me), then Marines (don’t do it man, lol.)
Thanks for your candor and honesty about your experience in the military.
I’m interested in the Guard for a couple reasons.
1) The money, particularly student loan forgiveness.
2) I will only commit to a part-time position, and the most I would ever be “deployed” is 90 days at a time.
3) I’m hoping to become a state government employee, and in my state, the state is required to hold a position for you for up to five years if you’re in service. So, I’m guaranteed to have a job plus the money I can make in the Guard.
4) I have a two degrees in theology, which I am hoping to use as a Chaplain or Chaplain’s assistant. In one of those two roles, I wouldn’t see combat, but would serve more as a counselor.
All that said, I’d appreciate any additional thoughts you might have… my user name in the comments followed by @gmail.com
Great advice. This is very much how I’ve lived my life for the past year. I’ve had several very difficult discussions with my Christian wife. I was a Christian for the first 10 years of our marriage, so she is having a hard time with it.
By far, the most important thing is to “Emphasize Your Open-Mindedness” and point out where you agree. None of us have all the answers, so we can’t be arrogant and pretend that we do. It’s difficult for a religious person to criticize you for asking good questions. The only thing that truly divides most of us is the willingness to have faith in something that is not rational.
Having skepticism and lack of religious faith is not a theological belief system. As Daniel said, it isn’t worth losing relationships by angrily defending what you don’t believe. If your friend isn’t using religion to justify an evil agenda, I say live and let live.
Totally with all of this. Best advice I ever heard for dealing with disagreements in general, though:
“If you raise your voice, you’ve lost the argument”.
but if you’re not the loudest how do you know that you’ve won?
;) o u,
EXACTLY. NOW WE JUST NEED MEGAPHONES << IS SKRT WEPONZ.
A friend of mine just bought a megaphone on ebay (for sh*ts and giggles). I told him I’d like to borrow it for when I’m in rush hour…
*psht* Hey dumb a**! Get off the damn phone and drive!! *psht*
I guess it wouldn’t work so well at a family reunion.
I appreciate your advice, Daniel! My advice is to never discuss religion or politics with friends or family. :)
I’ve always wanted one of those scrolling LED message displays for my rear window, so that I can put up messages for drivers following me, like:
“Stop driving up my arse you retard!”
or
“You seem to think I’m going to let you overtake if you drive like an idiot. Wrong!”
or
“If you drive into me because you’re on that mobile ‘phone, I’m going to beat you!”
or
“While driving is NOT the time to pluck your facial hair, you dippy cow!”
(By the way, that last one is a true example of something a woman driving behind me for four or five miles actually did).
Yelling at someone is not a discussion. It’s called giving a sermon, and people always ignore those.
Also remember that they are probably terrified of seeing you tortured forever in the pit of hell. This fear is a powerful motivator, especially when the person truly loves you, like a spouse or a parent.
And keep in mind that this is often a temporary adjustment process. After a while, when everyone has said all that they can it dies down. Now I can’t even get a conversation about religion going because they know that their own beliefs will be called into question and they can’t deal with it.
I wholly agree with the advice to talk to people one on one when you can. It’s much easier to have a reciprocal dialogue in such a setting.
Also, I’d encourage people to be somewhat choosy on the family members you’re willing to engage in this conversation. I know that I can always have thoughtful conversations with my mom, but with my uncle, it turns into a talk-radio-quotin’ shout fest. If you have a friend/family member who consistently shows that they’re only interested in talking over you or trapping you in their arguments, then it might be best not to discuss your belief system with that person.
Whenever my uncle tries to start this conversation, my aunt always helps me steer him back toward college football or something like that (where he can argue & assert his opinion, but none of us is going to walk away feeling hurt).
Great article! I’m a Christian, and I’ll be sharing this with other Christians. We can certainly use the same advice!
Excellent advice.
I’ve found that the most “Christian” people I know, won’t try and make you feel like crap for not sharing their beliefs. They’ll talk to you and maybe even debate with you, but they won’t badger you or blatantly try and convert you. It’s sad that the majority, at least of those I’ve met, seem to think that they have to spout on and on about Satan and damnation in order to get their point across. I’m lucky though to have a devout sister who has agreed to disagree with me and simply accept me for who I am and vice versa. Any time we even get into a religious discussion we laugh because we know it will get into a debate. I really just wish more people (of any religion) would live and let live instead of making it all into a battle over who’s right and who’s wrong.
This is very useful advice, but I really doubt that it would ever work for my family. (Warning: Therapeutic tangent ahead.)
My parents are fundamental Christians. Not the craziest fundamental Christians I’ve ever heard of, but pretty darned fundamental. They don’t “do doctors,” they don’t even call themselves Christians (they’re “followers”), and switching to another church (even one that’s practically the same denomination) is considered apostasy.
When they found out that I had stopped believing in Jesus, they had a cow. No, let me rephrase that. Over the course of three days, they gave birth to an entire herd. I managed to restore piece by feigning a reconversion (which I am really not proud of, but had to do for all our sakes).
Switching churches is apostasy, but forgivable. Leaving church is apostasy, but forgivable (better no church than the wrong church, apparently). Changing religions or becoming an atheist is blasphemy, and not forgivable.
My mother and I were talking about atheists just last night, and it was scary how calm she was as she told me that atheists were probably going to Hell. (This never sat well with me, even as a Christian.) Not that SHE was judging them, but the Bible is pretty clear about blasphemy (ironically). That revelation, though, paled in comparison to the thing I realized next.
If that atheist was me, she’d be singing a completely different tune.
I cannot get around that hypocrisy. Christians are commanded to love everyone. Neighbors, enemies, prostitutes, atheists. They are also commanded not to have close ties to their family. Yet I grew up in a churchful of Christians who value their children over anyone else.
If I told my mother I was an atheist, there would be weeping (literally) and gnashing of teeth (more figuratively). She would rail and scream and threaten and beg and search for any loophole through which she could drag me back into the fold. She would probably try to cast out the Devil, who was obviously in my head, leading me away from Jesus. If I told her that I had committed blasphemy, she would refuse to believe it. But Penn Jilette? “Well, I’ll just leave it up to God.”
I’ve said it before, and it bears repeating: As a Christian, I would have given up my own immortal soul to save two others. Anyone who would not does not love as Jesus commanded.
Setting aside the hypocrisy, though, I did have an honest question here: How am I supposed to “handle” a mother who (1) knows that I will burn in Hell as an atheist and (2) literally thinks that she is God’s gift to her children? She’s normally so rational, but when it comes to OMGDisobedience! she has the mind of a child. She once threw a temper tantrum while treating her adult daughters like twelve-year-olds, and that was over a grossly exaggerated “attitude” incident. She definitely won’t be finding out at least until I’m out of the house, but how am I supposed to deal with her afterwards?
The only solution I can think of is to finally say to her everything I’ve been thinking, and I know that if I do that she’ll hate me for it (in a Christ-approved “hate the sin, love the sinner” kind of hate).
This is a sad story. It is likely to have a sad outcome, even when you do leave the house. Thanks for sharing it. Don’t become embittered, let this motivate you. You are obviously breaking this cycle. Your kids wont be treated this way. That is a very positive thing. Also maybe your future book/blog/line of work will break the cycle in someone else’s life. Good luck.
In this situation you are going to have a hard time reaching any peaceful agreement with your parents. If you can continue with the “please” and “thank you” routine until you are a little older and perhaps more prepared (emotionally and financially and more schooled on the issues at hand) to deal with confronting your parents than that is probably the better move.
If this issue is the kind that is keeping you up at night now, I would recommend writing a letter to your parents where you can clearly and intelligently explain all your beliefs. Here you can break the news without the trouble of having to speak in front of what will surely be a hostile crowd.
You can explain how one can still live a “Christ-like lifestyle” or how one can model their morality after many of the teachings of Christ without a belief in the supernatural. Try to incorporate the positive qualities of their church and congregation and emphasis how you can still act accordingly without the ultamite belief.
I forgot to add…
Don’t write a letter then go to a friends house or run away from home. You would need to follow it up with open discussion with your parents.
Writing letters to my parents has worked for me. It has always seemed to be the only way to get my point across without raised voices, bursts of rage, and unreasonable jumps to conclusions. Another plus is being able to write it at your own pace, make it organized and comprehendable, etc. because your not standing there with your parents staring at you while your scraping your thoughts trying to get your point across while stiffling tears and being nervous about what they’ll think (which has never worked for me). I mean, writing a letter to your parents might be hard, but it’s proven to be more effective for my life.
And TGE was right about the open discussion. It’s hard, too, but it’s better for them to have read the letter and have an idea of where you’re coming from than for you to start from scratch. It’s always less frustrating for me and my parents if I write a letter first. And they’re usually more open about stuff.
And I tried running away one after I wrote a letter few years ago. Bad idea. I ripped my parents’ hearts in half.
Sounds like we have similar parents, really. Are they of Pentecostal persuasion, by chance?
Setting aside the hypocrisy, though, I did have an honest question here: How am I supposed to “handle” a mother who (1) knows that I will burn in Hell as an atheist and (2) literally thinks that she is God’s gift to her children? She’s normally so rational, but when it comes to OMGDisobedience! she has the mind of a child. She once threw a temper tantrum while treating her adult daughters like twelve-year-olds, and that was over a grossly exaggerated “attitude” incident. She definitely won’t be finding out at least until I’m out of the house, but how am I supposed to deal with her afterwards?
My parents and I had some run-ins when I told them about my own theological questions. Eventually, I left their fold of Christianity. I still self-identify as a Christian, but I’m not totally sure they would consider me to be one — if I told them about all the theological questions I have.
What we eventually decided was to stop talking about our theological disagreements. My parents and I have always had a wonderful, close friendship, and I have no doubt that if I were completely honest with my mom about my own beliefs that she would react just like your mom — and I’m not even an atheist! (I say that humorously).
Instead of talking theology that we disagree about, we focus on what we do agree about. And frankly, we almost never talk theology. Instead, we talk sports (Pistons in particular), which we all love. We talk about my siblings. We talk about our jobs. We talk about our families.
And it works. We’re as good of friends now as we’ve ever been, in spite of our glaring differences.
If I told my mother I was an atheist, there would be weeping (literally) and gnashing of teeth (more figuratively). She would rail and scream and threaten and beg and search for any loophole through which she could drag me back into the fold. She would probably try to cast out the Devil, who was obviously in my head, leading me away from Jesus. If I told her that I had committed blasphemy, she would refuse to believe it. But Penn Jilette? “Well, I’ll just leave it up to God.”
It’s kinda rough to call her a hypocrite for this, don’t you think? I don’t mean to be insensitive toward your situation, because I understand what you are going through to an extent. But, isn’t she just modeling the type of love you describe? I mean, from my perspective, it sounds like a perfectly natural coping mechanism. And from a different perspective, her son leaving the fold might cause her to rethink her entire doctrine of hell and damnation, and we would both agree that’s a good thing.
She is a hypocrite because she reacts 2 different ways.
1) Random celebrity atheist (Penn Jillete – who commited blasphemy on youtube): God is going to deal with him [read: SEND HIM TO HELL]
2)Son: I don’t believe you actually commited blasphemy.
As a matter of fact, they are Pentacostals. Not crazy Pentacostals, mind, but they are heavily into faith healing and they’ve picked up snakes a few times.
I’m just really having a hard time imagining that we could ever reconcile this kind of thing. In the previous incident I mentioned – where she found out I had stopped believing in Jesus – she was nothing but livid and distraught (in turns) for two days straight. She tried repeatedly to convince me that I had been led astray by demons, tried to cast said demons out of me once, and decided mid-argument to tell everyone that she thought she had lymphoma (she thought it was relevant; I thought it was inappropriate and needlessly hurtful). It may also bear repeating that she threatened to throw both me and my apostate sister out of the house, saying that she would not allow “this kind of thing” (apostasy) under her roof.
I don’t know… maybe once I’m out of the house and supporting myself, it may be possible for us to discuss it rationally and eventually reconcile. I’m just not keeping my hopes up.
Oh, and FYI – I’m not her son. I’m one of the adult daughters.
Great article. I have something of a different take on it, though.
I don’t care for the dogma of organized religion, or a lot of the hypocrisy, hate and misinformation that I see espoused in the name of higher beings that are supposed to love us all. But, for all of the negatives of organized religion, there are positives as well, and for many people the community and ideals of a religion are incredibly important in their lives. I have a lot of respect for that.
I don’t really have any interest in “deconverting” other people. What I really want is the same respect from religious folks that I give to them. I don’t particularly want to argue or debate with them.
So for this kind of situation, I’m a lot more likely to simply say, “As much as you believe in your religion, I believe in my personal beliefs. I respect your right to hold your beliefs and I don’t put you down for them. I expect you to offer me the same courtesy. Let’s agree to disagree and move on.”
Fortunately, my family deals well with this type of situation, and my parents allowed me the space to develop my own beliefs. I cannot imagine the heartache of having family that is intolerant of your beliefs. As for friends … I find that those who don’t support me and allow me to be me are not my friends. It’s painful to lose friends, but continuing to spend time with people who are so focused on criticizing you and picking at you and arguing with you is even more painful than making a clean break.
Fair enough. But someone had the kindness to do it for me. And I feel like have a certain ‘debt’ that I accrued as a born-again. I probably converted or evangelized 20 people in those years. I still feel bad about this. While I don’t ‘deconvert’ people who aren’t interested in debate, or talking about it, I take every opportunity that seems to be honestly motivated.
sorry, I meant to quote this from you:
“I don’t really have any interest in “deconverting” other people. What I really want is the same respect from religious folks that I give to them. I don’t particularly want to argue or debate with them.”
I still suck at html tags.
Here’s my advice for dealing with such situations.
Use the Donnie Technique for changing the topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApmvDU5RmyY&feature=PlayList&p=68B844B9821D96BC&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2
thank you for posting that you tube clip. that was rather funny.
I find a good slap upside the head works pretty well… Ok, I’m kidding, I’m kidding! Seriously though, besides all the great advice Daniel laid out here, what other folks need to understand is that it’s your life, your (alleged) soul in the balance here. Not theirs. They don’t let others decide for them what they believe/don’t believe in, and they don’t get to do that for you (especially if you’re an adult). Noone else gets to decide for me the destiny of my (alleged) soul. Noone. Possibly I’m wrong, and will end up in hell for it (though I highly doubt it) but being that it’s my life and my (alleged) eternal salvation/damnation at stake, I’m the one who gets to decide how it’s going to go. Not them.
Great post, Daniel – excellent ideas.
I certainly agree with brgulker – especially the part about “Here’s hoping that people on both sides of this debate take your advice…”
One thing that struck me was the advice to “love them anyway”. Sort of like what Jesus said Christians should do, but which is not often seen when discussing non-belief with Christians.
What usually happens (in my experience) is that the Christian gets more and more agitated and moves to the “you’re wrong and you’ll burn in hell” position. End of discussion. Even if they’re genuinely worried and concerned for us, there’s no further real discussion possible, just repetition of what they already said. I can’t remember ever encountering a case where a believer will accept anything except agreement with their beliefs. No calm disagreement, no open mindedness. They know we’re wrong and that’s that.
I guess that deep down, Christians (should) know that their beliefs do not hold up to honest scrutiny. They are faith-based, rather than evidence-based, so any evidence or discussion to the contrary is brushed aside. For a real believer, it’s easy to believe that Jesus rose from the dead, regardless of any evidence (or lack of it). And that He talks to them every day.
Sadly, while I really like your advice (and certainly suggest that everyone follows it), I’m afraid that in the real world we’ll never (or at least, very rarely) encounter a believer who is willing to honestly discuss things. They’ll only “discuss” the fact that we’re wrong and they’re right.
I know what you are saying, Len. But once again, the fence-sitters and the honestly curious will have a seed planted. This happened to me. I was completely obliterated in a debate when I was born-again. This was done in a respectful civil manner, by my dad (who was finally breaking his silence against my mother and her friend’s crazy ideas). I was not instantly convinced, just like you say. I assumed that I needed to do more research so that I could prove my dad wrong, and after about 20 minutes of this ‘debate’ I just went silent, thinking. True, I was still thinking about ‘how to be right / win’ But, when I actually did the research, I decided to read what the skeptics were saying, just in order to prove them wrong. The next six months of research shattered my faith, and even made me depressed, but eventually I was able to move on and accept it. Now I’m motivated. I’m happy. I am so grateful that my dad did not back down.
That’s a good point. Planting the seed can be enough to get someone thinking – especially when done in a calm, respectful manner. I’m glad it worked for you.
Excellent answers, Dan. You should start a weekly “Ask Dan” column!
“What do you do in these situations? Do you have any advice that might be helpful to those who have family or friends pressuring and/or criticizing them?”
Remember our humanity,learning to survive or fight humanly in our own enviroments and not forgetting our common human attributes.
I agree with the others, Daniel, this is very good advice.
However, the first thing one should ask, I would say, is whether you really need to justify yourself towards your family or friends, or even want to de-convert them as well. If the answer is no, maybe you should only tell them politely that you have made up your mind, that you don’t feel a need to discuss this with them, and that their efforts will not change the way you think.
Unless your family is Borg, of course (‘Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated!’)
Be aware this might also be an invitation for endless and repeated discussions.
First of all, I don’t think his original post was about debating or deconverting. I think myself and a few others accidentally hijacked a portion of the comments section into this.
But secondly, be aware this might also be an invitation for repeated opportunities to deconvert (yes I’m aware of ironic incongruous paragraphs. ;) )
Phrase things in their frame of reference so they can understand it. When they ask why you are leaving your beliefs behind, them them you want to spend eternity in the burning pits of Hell.
I deal with criticism by going on the offensive. Remember, science and morality is on your side. There’s absolutely no reason for anyone to feel superior to you, based on religion.
“Ask them to explain their beliefs and why they hold them. Perhaps through questioning you will show them their position is illogical or cannot be supported by facts. But don’t just tell them they are wrong. That’s an easy way to make an enemy.”
The “questions” advice is particularly good. I’m a big fan of the socratic method when dealing with believers.
I disagree on telling them they are wrong though. It doesn’t have to be said in a mean way, but I don’t see anything wrong with telling someone they are wrong if you believe that to be true. People tell me I’m wrong all the time. Sometimes I think about it and have to admit I was wrong. If not I take it in stride.
I just wish all those things listed above were that easy. I just know taht if I told my father, he and my step mother would probably not have anything to do with me any longer. I know that sounds harsh, unfortunately, very true.
My father already has nothing to do with me. He is a believer, and he literally believes in the bible verse that says to leave your family behind to follow Jesus. He left me behind when I was 12.
Yeah, we don’t talk much…
:(
I’m so sorry to hear that. I know how it can be. When I was a kid, there was an older couple that needed marriage counciling, so, they went to most logical choice, the pastor. Not only did the pastor blab to everyone about thier problems( in sermons without saying who it was, like nobody knew who he was talking about), but that long time member was excommunicated( and we were not catholics) in a manner of speaking, he got tired of it and left. All very sad, from poeple that were suposed to tollerant of others.
I stumbled upon this site a few days ago, and wow, here it is, the issue that’s been gnawing at me for so many years. I’ve questioned all this hypocrisy since I’ve been about 12 years old — that wine still tasted like wine to me, and my prayers were never answered. And any God that would allow our nutcase pastor to belittle and scream at people like he did…. talk about fire & brimstone!
My parents are the most religious folks I’ve ever met — they still go to church every single day. And I love them dearly. They simply don’t have the capacity to open their minds to any discussion on this. It would only cause tremendous hurt, and I love them too much to put them thru that discussion. So I keep my mouth shut and keep on pretending for them.
Same thing with my wife, who has now joined our parish council and is getting to be good friends with our new pastor, who is actually a pretty cool guy. Her parents are just as religious as mine. Any discussion here would probably end up in divorce, and I simply won’t put my daughter thru that — she’s the best thing in my life.
So much easier, for me, to just go thru the motions for 1 hour a week — a small sacrifice to keep my life from falling apart as I know it. Call me a coward, but I’m just too nice to want to hurt all these people I love.
You are certainly not a coward, Trapped. Your circumstances are extreme. I hesitate to offer any life advice, but I sympathize. I find myself in more and more of an activist mindset, the more I hear stories like yours. Good luck, friend.
Coming from a quite non-religious country, Finland, these situations are totally bizarre to me. All my friends are naturalists, atheists and antitheists. That being said, I’d seek out other people who are in your situation in your community. Be active and gather a like-minded posse so you won’t feel so alone. That way you may be able to talk about your thoughts with your wife and (maybe) relatives.
You are not trapped, there’s tons of non-religious people – even if only online.
Geez. I can’t stand this. Do people not realize how much better things would be if they would just listen to others? Truly listen? It’s probably the best trait a perosn can have: good listening skills. Because if someone *truly* listens to other people, they have to be open minded, they have to be accepting and tolerant to a certain degree, they have to want to understand the other person, put themselves in the other persons shoes, they have to know how to admit when they’re wrong, and they have to be patient, calm, and sympathetic. They have to be thinking about what the other person is saying instead of thinking of their own reply.It may seem like a lot to be able to listen, but to truly listen, it’s a requirement, as far as I can see. Just think of how many divorces, wars, murders, etc, could be avoided if people were just simply willing to *truly* listen to others. It may seem far fetched that just listening could “save the world”, but just think about it. Not that it will ever happen, but if it did, wow…
That was my optimistic rant of the day :)
I actually did a lesson on this in my wednesday night class at church last week. I felt like people needed to know how to effectively communicate with others, and apparently I was right because a few people had no idea where I was getting these ideas. Lol. And I also realized that not everyone is aware that not everyone thinks like them. But i’m glad that I gave that lesson because a few people talked to me afterwards about how it had inspired them to listen carefully to what others have to say instead of just putting their belief of God as a forcefield between them, keeping them from understanding the other person, or just getting frustrated. And that’s what I was aiming for.
And I had to correct quite a few people’s statements on evolution and the big bang theory.
The most common one:
“A big explosion couldn’t have made all of this.”
And I thought I didn’t know much of anything about it…
My favorite one:
“I don’t get the whole survival of the fittest thing. I mean, if I see someone bleeding on the side of the road, I’m gonna help them. I’m not just gonna walk by and say “Ha! I’m the fittest! I’m not gonna help you”. It doesn’t make any sense. Only a terrible person would do something like that. And if it were true, we’d all be dead by now”.
I actually thought she was kidding at first… It took a WHILE to explain it to this person in the simplest terms possible. And then I’m pretty sure it still didn’t get through. Lol. But I tried.
I LOL’d. (:
Excellent advice! I wished I had referenced this list prior to making my agnosticism known.
Thanks for the great advice Daniel. Probably one of my favorite posts since I’ve been following. I really like how you emphasize patience and understanding, that is definitely very important. Even though I feel like just going out right and pointing out all the absurdities and inconsistencies, but I know it’s much better to sometimes just listen and calmly disagree. I also like how you pointed out that many of us thought the same way in the past. Thinking about it that way really helps me to understand and empathize with religious people who are so fervently set in their ways. Great post!
Thanks Michael! Glad you enjoyed it.
Most of this advice is great (and useful, as I’m going through this with my parents right now) However, some of it is impractical when you’re dealing with the most stringently religious (as my parents are). For instance, I try to emphasize my open-mindedness, but they reply by saying “Well, there is no evidence for god, that’s why you need to have faith!” And then they say I’m closed minded because I won’t “give god a chance by taking a leap of faith”. So, in a way, it’s an argument I can’t win. Similarly, when I admit to being wrong about something, they use it against me, as “Aha! Maybe you’re wrong about god, too!”
Also, regarding your point about being sympathetic – I can’t empathize with them, because I was never nearly as devout as they are. I honestly do not understand what it’s like to be that far removed from reality. I can be sympathetic to a point, but it’s more like pity, because I know that they believe what they do because they’ve been indoctrinated with it for over 50 years. And then I end up running the risk of being condescending (I actually have to be very careful when speaking with them, because they will call me on it when I’m talking down to them!)
Try telling them “I cannot find evidence pointing towards god but I find plenty of evidence pointing in another direction that I personally find much more plausible. I will not ask you to believe any differently from what you do, for your faith is your own and cannot be swayed. My choice is not yours and clearly you disapprove, but since I have respected your decision on faith I expect that you can do the same. My faith is my own and I cannot be swayed.”
So well put.Thanks Daniel.
I’m a Christian but this is really good..great post man.
I respect respectful atheists as I’m sure they would show respect to respectful Christians.
A had so many things experience even now . But i always see to it that i cannot hurt anyone. Whatever they say i just keep it in. I extend my deepest understanding and trying to learn from their mistakes and accept what they are. I never insist things that just to depend myself as long as i know that I’m on the right side. I’m very sensitive person and i don’t have time to argue and insist things that i knew it would only turned bad. Instead, learning from it is the best way.