In Mecca, about 200 mosques point the wrong way for prayers. This is making the faithful nervous:
Some worshippers are said to be anxious about the validity of their prayers.
Can you imaging believing that your prayers might not be heard because a building was slightly misaligned? Good grief! Do they really think an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise God would care about such a thing?
So what is to be done about this odious blasphemy?
There have been suggestions that laser beams could be used to make an exact measurement.
I have a better idea. Maybe they could get a bunch of Muslims to pray in the right direction, and see if Allah will fix the direction of their mosques. Or do they admit that their prayers, even when facing the right direction, can’t do anything in the real world?
Officials assure their sheep that everything is fine, their prayers were heard:
Tawfik al-Sudairy, Islamic affairs ministry deputy secretary, downplayed the problem in remarks quoted by the pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat.
“There are no major errors but corrections have been made for some old mosques, thanks to modern techniques,” he said.
“In any case, it does not affect the prayers.”
Daniel, have you studied Muslim theology? Just wondering.
Same thing, but more anti-semitism.
Hey, I don’t have anything against Jewish believers.
Don’t they need to face some ancient meteorite that they think fell from heaven?
I’m also not sure what the big deal is if they stated that it doesn’t affect prayers.
Too bad they didn’t use this:
http://www.qiblalocator.com/
Maybe they don’t trust Tawfik al-Sudairy. He doesn’t sound very reassuring. After all, he’s not exactly Obama.
This seems like a perfect opportunity for a double-blind test. Do worshippers in misaligned mosques get their prayers answered less often than worshippers in correctly aligned mosques?
What modern techniques are they using to get the mosques facing the right way? This could revolutionize the solar energy industry.
I’m surprised that they are allowed to use lasers, I would think people would find it a perversion of the gift of light God gave them. Personally I don’t know if they should risk it, God is probably already pretty mad at them for not praying in the right direction in the first place, shooting there heretic beams at his holy land might just be the final straw.
Unrelated: I came across this youtube video the other day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v80C-_Zf41Q Is this video for real?
“In any case, it does not affect the prayers.”
QFT
When Muhammad was around the Muslims prayed toward Jerusalem. When the Jews rejected the Great Prophet, he turned everyone around toward Mecca. If they keep going clockwise they’ll soon end up bowing toward New York.
DF: “Can you imaging believing that your prayers might not be heard because a building was slightly misaligned? Good grief! Do they really think an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise God would care about such a thing?”
Is that any more ridiculous than believing that an all loving merciful god cares about how and who you have sex with, or what kind of graven images you have, or if you’re eating blessed crackers on a Sunday only after confessing your sins to a celibate man behind a screen the day before? It’s all ridiculous. The Quran does specify a very particular direction for prayers, though, that is why people were upset. If you’re a Muslim of course you think it matters, because you think the Quran is god’s perfect holy word.
It is not about the prayer being heard, also. This is not a concept or term that you hear with Muslims really. Generally, Muslims believe that god hears all prayers offered, including those from non Muslims. It is about the prayer being accepted, in terms of the fact that Islam is about faith and works. You have to have faith, but you also have to perform works, and you get what I call ‘Heaven points’ for your works. If you perform ablution and prayer incorrectly, you do not get any heaven points for that, and if you dont’ make it up, you get marks in your ‘Hell points’ book that you will have to erase through some other deed like fasting.
DF: “So what is to be done about this odious blasphemy?”
??? The misdirected mihrabs are not a form of blasphemy and would not be considered such. Merely an error that should be corrected.
DF: “I have a better idea. Maybe they could get a bunch of Muslims to pray in the right direction, and see if Allah will fix the direction of their mosques. Or do they admit that their prayers, even when facing the right direction, can’t do anything in the real world?”
There are different types of prayers in Islam, and different types of ritual prayers. The one that this article concerns, the main prayer of Islam is about each individual and his or her afterlife only. Muslims do not expect the main prayer to have an effect on the way things in the world are going. The main prayer is the one that must be done facing the Kaabah, not the other types. Anyway, if I was still Muslim, I would say ‘Trust Allah, tie up the camel,’ which I would intend to mean that the problem was ‘revealed’ to us and now we have the means to fix it ourselves by changing the location of the mihrab… Muslims don’t believe in present day miracles for the most part, like that the mosques would magically change direction. In reality, it is probably because people are practical and they know the mosque won’t be magically flying around in the air or that a prayer is going to get rid of bacteria in the system, so they do the work themselves or take the medicine or whatever.
My god, what have they done? Did they turn the mosques around? Or are they just deceiving the faithful?
Maybe they could pray towards sets of precisely angled mirrors and that could orient the prayers in the correct direction…
So that’s why none of my prayers were ever answered! Should have bought a damn compass…
“There are no major errors but corrections have been made for some old mosques, thanks to modern techniques,” he said.
In any case, it does not affect the prayers.”
Wait!
Modern Techniques?
The Muslims have Prayer Re-directing Technology!
How long have they been using it to redirect American Prayers?
This explains everything thats gone wrong with the country.
Yea, but this is the real problem…
http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/report_32_of_prayers
….And what with all that space junk up there too…
Pingback: Chaz’s Lifestream » Blog Archive » Daily Digest for 2009-04-06
…let’s not make the mistake of anti-semitism, i.e., the word or title can only apply to someone
who actively dislikes both arabs and jews as they have the common ancestor, abraham:
they are both semites. semite from, cemitta(N)=center look/itta, to examine the life of someone
from the seed=semilla(sp), it appears from this etymology of cemitta/semilla that the semites are
pioneers in agriculture. the eden fable is the story of the end of hunter-gathering idylls and the
beginning of agriculture, which is earning one’s living by sweat of brow behind plow.
Semitic means (noun) a subfamiliy of languages including Akkadian, Arabic, Aramaic, Ethiopic, Hebrew, and Phoenician; or (adjective) of the Semites or their languages, esp. Jews.
Anti-Semitic means anti-Jew.
Maybe it should properly mean “anti-Akkadian -Arabic -Aramaic -Ethiopic -Hebrew or -Phoenician”, but it doesn’t.
…rodney, you cannot say that semite/cemitta(N) means anti-jew, it’s a bigger word than that,
going on to, semilla(sp). this is what i mean about language, it expands into myth and history,
giving one a broader view of positives and negatives. don’t be trapped on just one side of a
question like this. the jews and arabs are cousins within the semite file. personally i am pissed
at both of them, and christians too, for foisting monotheism(their imaginary friends)on the entire
world, and squabbling over a handful of sand when we have so many greater problems to sort out.
as to the language family you mention, underneath them all is nauatl/4water/4river, marked
in the bible as location of eden. as luck would have it, nauatl is in dictionary form, look up
rene simeon/nauatl diccionario/siglo XX1, or go to my blogspot tletl, or tzopilotl wordpress,
or matilda gobekli blog, or zme neander, to see how nauatl works out in history and myth. tks
…cram your hide with knowledge/know=no atl/nauh(N)=my/no atl/water=nous(gk)=the brain,
all of it: the lies, the better to combat them, the supposed truths, see how they run like 3
blind mice up the clock of our times, watch their tales cut off by the farmer’s wife of current
events, soak up everything, understand the enemy so it can be friend, never exclude data,
today’s lie may be tomorrow’s truth/troth/tru(s)t/tlatolli(N)=word,
don’t allow yourself to be vanquished by beliefs that you haven’t fought for,
you’re unique, everybody fits into the book of souls a different way,
tolerate the differences, don’t let yourself be blind-sided by any prejudice,
open the wings of your mind either side and balance yourself
on the on the pinions of open inquiry, don’t shut something or someone down
until you have been on both sides of the argument.
as to prayer, it’s a form of piety, of not picking, guarding and abstaining, yet hoping to receive
or hear from the world rather the world hearing from you, a state of quietude where one can
reflect and listen for a change.tks
…perhaps the counting of time itself has something to do with ourselves, our prayers, and
our relationship with our galaxy and its relationship with us. we are now on atomic time
which has cleansed us of our former connexion with the season’s wheel. we are still on the
rim of the year round but not on the correct arc to balance that wheel properly,
in fact, we are 60 degrees off from where we should be, off by one sixth, quite a bit, an
extraneous but telling harmonic is that 6=miquiztli(N)=death in the booksoulstunes/
tonalamatl. the year does not begin naturally in january, the 2-faced god, the catholic
church presents to us. it begins on spring equinnox of nahui olli/4movements of the sun,
whose universe we are in. not taking our cue from the center, as we should, is another
gift from the cock-eyed(pun)masters of religion way past its prime, whose dopplegangers
still hang around to haunt and influence us in so many bad ways. what’s in a belief except
currency(pun). this is another example of money/power, and how it gets that way, brought
to us by a confederacy of religious and (govern)mental dunces whom time will always
remember as asbestos(pun), flaming retardants!
…the original temple was a mountain/tepetl(N)= te(m)pe(t)l(letra)=temple. mountain itself=
mo/u(n)ta(in)(letra)=motla(N)=run against stone(the old stoning word, a religious process,
cf., read shirley jackson’s, the lottery), mother comes from this word, also moth, motley,
mot(Fr)mote(sp)motto(E)moat/(s)mote(E/letra), also, mo(r)tal, mort(Fr), mora(sp)/mulberry(E)/maroon(E). moishe goes up the mountain. hebrew= h/th/tep/b(r)ew/ua(letra)=tepeua(N)=
mountain owner. arab=arabeitan(OHG)arbeit(ger)=tlapa(N/pfefix)/ t/l/rappa(letra)=rabotat(russ)=
robot(E)=work. arabs are aryan/airyana(avestan)= air/lia(letra)=ailia(N/reverential of ay=do)/
yana=yani(N)=pilgrim, llano(sp)=plain, (pr)air ie, so airyana=plains/prairie/ally(E)=work for
someone else on flatland, desert=yucahtla(N)=yucatan(peninsula)/yucca(plant).
the arabs/the aryans never work for themselves, being tribal/tribu(sp)= tep/bu(letra)=
tepulli(N/biology)=male member, that’s what tribes are about, codpieces and alliances,
and out of this we got a male god/gott/cotoni(N)=cotton/cutter/gutter, yet i believe women
outnumber men on the planet, so we are half-assed religious on old blue.
countrys that protect their females are head and shoulders above tribes, which are only
hitting on one cylinder, spluttering through the old testament or worse. the male principle
has always been skygod, when hecate venus gave birth to the twins, devil and christ
mock-ups, we were headed towards the trouble optimists call progress, that is,
interested optimists, whose fear of losing material or airtime makes them pessimists
and oppresive charlatans for the naturally happy majority, whom they target with their
arrows of god, the cutter. since morning and evening star, man/woman has swung back
and forth in the balance, the greeks recommended sophrosyne, the golden mean,
the buddhists/ b/po/ut/d(letra)=potli(N)=both, and the zens/ z/ce(N)=one.
the rc church, of course, offers ehecatl hecate’s shield/child number, 3/the trinity,
air, land, and sea, with god being air,christ land, and the holy ghost a concoction/
concoquere(Lat)/coquette/conquer(by cooking)/acoquetzi(N)=to get on top, by
confabulating the leftover sea foam that birthed venus, the goddess of love for
all of us, and venereal as well, having come out of her totem animal, the deer/deor/
teotl(N)=teo theo dea.
the jumps and leaps of the human mind when confronted
with creation myths are the reflexion of its need for an answer to an aged truth,
yes, we are alone in the universe, yes, we need help, yes, how much will faith
cost us, and what price blindness? lack of vision may be a high price for comfort
that puts a callous/chacayolli(N) on the soul/saol(OE)= s/tza(ua)ol(lin)(letra)=
tzaua ollin(N)=the holy sawing/sewing/sowing. there’s safety in numbers, they say,
are wolves more dangerous than mildew? the herd should be heard, and demand
a change in their institutions that meets the needs of the majority, not the frantic,
pedantic minority of little gods with sooty noses.
…roger, doubt= d/toupé, ah, a wig?, ah, top/btli=toptli(N)=an idol, well, you get the idea,
it’s not the real thing, doubt makes you a victim of power, e.g., the wmd fear campaign
that entertained(held between)us during the bush league. god? he’s the cutter gutter,
the khuda(cooties)of the kurds, not bad people but given to early human sacrifice, not
the later yearly one of christians. and who are we? we’re torches, candles in the wind,
combustibles who shine a light, set fire one to the other topically/to make toptli/idol.
we’re caught in a trap, that old elvis song that michael is singing now on his way to
mictlan, my word for god=teotl theother, use your light to see as much as you can,
shine it on others and yourself, darkness the primordial confusion of chaos/caO(etr)=
ecatl(N)=wind/breath, but it is part of an early prayer of creation: atl ecatl luthe cel=
water wind light excel(higher). trained as christ/quitoa(who talks) doesn’t
mean you reject excelsior(higher), the first altar= tealtia= reality, and beauty itself
is beatitude and exists in and out of the org. church, use all the material you have
learned, reject not a whit, talk, put guilt the quilt on the shelf, and opt/toptli for the
many colors of life, so what if you have left the framejob of a fishy religion, frame
your own, weave it on your loom and be comfortable with it, at least it will fit you,
made by your own hands to your specifics and pacifics, wash it yourself, and let
other people take theirs to the laundry down the street who will ruin it. the focus
of religion is the altar, which has always been art, and it is a singularity, not a flock
of sheep surrounded by lazy shepherds who werewolf.
…theology comes in 2 parts. the first is deo theo teotl(N)=the-other(E), or, el-otro(sp), note
the spanish and english versions of teotl(N) have identical letter values. teotl(N), in turn, is
composed of 2 words: te=t(h)e(E), and otl(i)(N)=route;vein, as in, odol(basque)=(b)lood(E).
logos is the greek word for word, from, tloc(N)=beside(location). beside, locate/loquate
the other=theology. teotl(N) itself is a road, a route, an odos/an odyssey of the odol/blood.
originally, teotl(N) was a noma/nomatca/nomatzinco(N)=nomad hunting term that settled
into deer deor(OE) d/teot/l/r=nomatzinco(N)=nomad=my/no-matzinco/deer net=matlatl(N)=
mazatl(N/day7souls), and, into tree treow(OE) t(r)eotl worship, trees having blood also,
in fact the formula for blood and sap is as identical as neander and homosap dna.
the meaning of noma(N/adverb)=still(everyway=todavía), the same, always, spontaneous,
which is an apt description of religious service, and the word service, like the number, seven,
the offering number comes from the word, uentli(N)/offering, which is where the Latin word
for hunt, venation, comes from, as well as later, venus, venado/venison=deer being the
first sustenance, life goddess, and the horizon to horizon jumping deer venus later to be
replaced by day2souls, ehecatl/hecate/ekatheron catherine, weaving goddess and shuttle
xiotl(N) star, but, 50k bc mazatl(N)=deer was our first haberdasher, our first deor/Dior(OE).
the word, meat, itself, is from mazatl(N)=matr(ON)mats(Goth)matiz(CGer)mat(r)iz(sp)=womb,
maz(OHG)matam/mat(OSaxon)myaso(Rus)matzoh/mazeltov(Heb), etc.
in the altai/altia(N)/altar mts religion begins, 50k bc, out of nomadic fluctuations begun by
the glaciation of europe, the berbers/masyes, then deer tribe with the oldest mtDNA haplo
sister group of europe, 50k bc, take the southern corridor east across north afrika, there are
still red deer in the atlas mts and follow the ark of their totem animal, the deer, the amazing
mazatl out to the altai or wherever talullah=tlaloa(N)=flees, for she is the verb, tlaloa, the
verb of the raingod, tlaloc, in the tonalamatl/tones, and deer follow the green path of tlaloc,
the masyes berber settle in the caucasus 30k bc, notably dry then and change totem animal
to sheep, from which they also get milk but cannot ride them. in tzaatan=mazatlan=deerland
in the western altai, they breed for fatbacks, the antlers are tlaloc’s lightning rods and also
herald a new stage in flintknapping, pressure flaking, architecture finds its te(m)ple=tepetl(N)=
mountain in the =tepee, overlaid with deerhide, with the teotl of tree worship they build the yurt,
from yuhti(N)=from the beginning(ju(s)t/justice), the ger(mongol) word i thought was, g/cel/r,
but, ghar(hindi)= gh/g/cal/r=calli(N)=house. but playing with, yurt, and letra, i get, ch/y ur t/ch=
church! what i call extreme letra.
in any case, this is a call to know your onions when you discuss logos theology, half the
word is word, and the other half is the other. no point in discussing something if you don’t know
the meaning of the words you are using, like playing nine ball at sea, but, as i have noticed
ignorance has never checked speech, the result is a descent into misunderstanding, a cessation
of meaning, and the unanchored wind called ecatl cath caO(etruscan)=chaos. so if you want
to know about theother teotl, look at, otli(N) route road out other odos(gk), o(r)der, and realize
that religion starts with theother, specifically the deer teteo totem followed by nomads, then
went to sheep=oveja(sp)=ouica(N/adverb)=with difficulty=oui(N/adj.)=difficult,dangerous,
once there with sheep we have stepped/tepetl down the scale of religion/tleco/leg to the type
of animal wolves enjoy. this may explain government attitudes to their populations, church
to its followers, countrys to other countrys, and the questionable attitude of media
to its message. it’s not all pop pressure, we have chosen the wrong totem animal,
the sheep=xipeualiztli(N)=to flay=xipetotec(N)=our god the flayed one, aztec god springtime.
we seem to be working our way down the chain of evolutionary model, is the anthill in
danger of our attention? why not the bee? ah, but that would bee royalty.
…now, what can we say about, faith=fé(sp)=pie(N/Latin)=no pi(ck)=pi/opic(N)=pick=pizca(N)=
harvest=fisk(Iceland)=fish=pesca(sp)? our galaxy=calaqui(N)=enter the house, has a god, his
name is anthony=in tonatiuh, he’s the sun, he is the tone/tune/tona(N)=our 4=tonalli(N)=soul
of our universe, his escorts, morning and evening star are proto-christ and proto-devil, the black
tobacco god clown and fool of tarot=taroc(Ital)=tlaloc(N)=rarog(rus/balt)=raingod(of deer deor
teotl nomad age).
for you athiests, you’re wrong every day the sunshines, for you agnostics=agnus(Latin)=sheep,
baaah on you. solar is the only way to go. the catholic church promoted subordinate stars,
wiped out twin eveningstar in favor of jaysus morningstar, and for good measure made him
lucifer=the light bringer, no devil involved in that name, but john milton, english Latin secretary
under cromwell? demonized him and went blind for his trouble, e.g., they have eyes and see not.
when you look about, everything has its measure of teotl, a reel, a rod, a rood, an oar=remo
rowan reow(OE/preterit of rowan, the tree)=teotl(N)=row/remar(sp), a leon/lion/leornian/learning,
a stone=tetl=te(o)tl, a fire=tletl(N)=letter=leer(sp)=read=red=lernia(OFrisian)=le(o/a)rning,
an oriole, teocuitlatl(N)=gold=god/teo-cuitlatl/shit=tailings=-tlatl=t/la(i)l/tl(letra)=tail=quilate(sp)=
carat(E), silver=iztacteocuitlatl=white godshit. everything is holy/holly/(r)olling=ollin(N)=m(o)ves,
especially, joven(sp)=youth=jovian=ueOue(etruscan)=jo-ve/ve(letra)=Jove(roman).
i’ve never understood the depression of youth=jove(n), except as a consiracy of age=aco(N)=
ago=from on high, how high are they? not high enough for jovian youth=yotl(N)=alone/solo,
well, aha, there’s the reason, you’re alone,=yo(sp)=jot=iota(gk)= i(E/1st person sing).
the answer? make friends=f(r)/pie(N/Latin)/ds=pie(N/Latin)=piety/fé/fiel(sp), be faithful,
true/trow(E)=believe=pielli ue(N)=big deposit=cepan(N/OE)=one place=keep,faith with
each other, don’t pick at each other, have pie/fiestas(sp) of pie(N/Lat)=guarding and abstaining,don’t damage=tlamac/tlamaitl(N)=sleeve=damascene/damascus your own
kind, slam=tlamic(N)=20(ears corn)=cempoalli(N)=sample/example them, treat=tratar(sp)=
tataca(N)=dig/attack them kindly=k/c/s/z/tzintli(N)=saintly, the honorific, honor them.
when you do honor, believe=trow=treow(OE)=tree(E)=true=teotl(N)=the-other/el-otro,
you become the other, escape self, leave ego=egg=eg-(basque)=winged prefix=ecatl(N)=
cathedral of self and become quattre(Fr)=ecatl=4=navigator, with a bit of uecaitta(N)=
far/ueca-itta/seeing thrown=ekatheron(gk)=catherine=hecate=wiccam=witching inside,
which(pun)you use for good. if not you become, teuilotl(N)=glass=devil. it’s alright to be
a shadow=sh/s/cadow=cat/dow(letra)=ecatl owa/ua(N)=own wind’s heart=h/th/tetl/tletl(N)=
stone/fire=tl/t/th/hearth/t/l. stay in cont(r)ol=con/can toloa/dolor(sp)=pain=tolerance/door,
with the door of tolerance, bow the head, even a bull does, watch your t/horns=th/tol/r(n)=
toloa(N).
I have done some research and written a couple things on it. I don’t know it anywhere near as well as Christian theology, though.
I find it extremely frustrating when people insinuate “you’re not a theologist, so you’re outside your sphere of knowledge”. It doesn’t take an astrologer to tell you that astrology is quackery.
Theology is not a real sphere of knowledge. It’s expertise on fairy tales.
I have a better idea. Maybe they could get a bunch of Muslims to pray in the right direction, and the other Muslims to pray in the wrong direction and see which one comes out ahead with prayer s been answered. I am sure it would be about 50/50.
By the way I am new here, I deconverted from Christianity a few months ago
I dunno, Christianity has also been very anti-semitic through its history…
True, but I don’t read about that many fundamentalist Christian suicide bombers killing bus loads of Israeli school children these days….
(NB – For people who like to put words in other peoples mouths, as always happens with this issue, I think all religions are equaly ludicrous, and I don’t support Israel or Arabs in their perpetualy pointless conflict. I think they’re both a bunch of tools.)
I thought Constantine’s Sword was a good brief history of the influence of Antisemitism on the development of Christianity.
It isn’t a big deal. This is the spiritual equivalent of having a cough and being concerned it’s the flu or strep instead of just an itchy throat.
No. The meteorite is something that you may touch when on pilgrimage but it is not required to touch it and some scholars recommend that you stay away from it or don’t bother. However, you are supposed to raise your hands and say the takbeer when you pass it during your circumambulation of the Kaabah during pilgrimage and minor pilgrimage. When you’re not in Makkah itself, the black stone has no ritual importance.
Regarding the big deal, if you scroll down, I posted some thoughts to Daniel which included the fact that Islam is a faith and works religion. You score heaven points for all good deeds, and hell points for bad ones. In order to gain proper heaven points, or thawab, ajr or barakah (different types of heaven points), for your ritual prayer (the one referred to in the article) you must fulfill a myrid of conditions, one of which is to be facing the right direction. If you don’t, then you don’t get the ajr, and you may get “hell points” and you are required to make up the prayer before you die. Sudairy is trying to reassure the people who prayed in those mosques that they don’t now have to make up 10 years worth of prayers that they made there.
Basically, its both a practical consideration because people won’t have the time to do that and also because a lot of people don’t make up prayers, especially when they have years and years worth to re-do. So he’s trying to ‘save’ them the responsibility of this on ‘judgment day’ by saying that they are not responsible for making them up.
Some denominations have been assiduous in avoiding or excising their antisemitic elements; others, not so much. But, it is undeniably that less-than-pleasant attitudes and actions towards Jews have undergirded the middle history of Christianity (that is, through the Medieval period to the Enlightenment or so) and continue to occasionally crop up here and there.
I’ll have a look for it when I’m next in the library. Don’t get me wrong, I know that Christianity has a bit of history where anti-semitism is concerned (the pope being a hollocaust denier is an obvious example), but I don’t think that right now, in the present day, what radical Muslims do and what radical Christians do are comparible for levels of anti-semitism.
it’s good, but dear dali is it boring. really, really boring.
OMFG…. I think it is.
To the best of my knowledge, yes, this is an ongoing discussion in some muslim corners (pun intended) of the earth.
Boy, we can be glad we “only” have the IDiots and Creatards…
On second thought, maybe we’re not that lucky after all…
That is shocking! People have known that the world is round since ancient Greece (500 years bc), and probably further back than that in the East!!! Religion truly is the enemy of reason.
Wait, what? This is a reasonable subject of debate in Iraq? Small wonder the muslim world is no longer a paragon of science and mathematics.
We’ve been there, we’ve done that… Can you guess the outcome? ;-)
instead of OMG or OMFG, can we start a trend by using OYG or OYFG
Y = Your
It’s gods all the way up.
YES! gotta love a Discworld reference!
I think it fundamentally unfair to blame “religion” for the loss of perspective, here. The history of Islam, and, yes, even Christianity, show them to be as much patrons of the sciences as critics of them. During the Islamic Renaissance, Muslims managed to invent decimal numerals (possibly borrowed from further east), algebra and chemistry, and culturally Islam was understood to encourage, rather than discourage investigation of the natural world. It is a fairly modern mutation of Islam that has encouraged anti-intellectualism and anti-empiricism, not so coincidentally coinciding with the collapse of the Caliphate and the subsequent dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.
Such profound and traumatic political events will make just about anyone question their core principles. Unfortunately, the conclusion that was accepted was that Muslim cultures had “got a little too much ‘Western thought’ on ‘em”, and needed to be purged of those influences. It’s doubly ironic seeing as how many of those influences originate with Islamic influence on the West.
It’s a couple idiots talking in front of a video camera. Means nothing. Anyone can put a couple retards in front of a camera and watch them make fools of themselves. Some of the smartest people I know are muslim. Yes, even with incredible intelligence they still practice absurd religious customs. Their youthful brainwashing is very strong indeed, and seems impossible to discard with any sensible debate or logical reason. As I saw on another comment I try to talk to them scientifically by saying – ‘We live on a small section of one planet orbiting a very ordinary star which is but one of ~10^23 stars that exist in the observable universe. Our species has existed for but a minuscule fraction of the time that the universe has existed. Is putting in an explanation for the universe with us as the focal point really going to be an adequate explanation?’
Perhaps I should have said that fundamentalism is the enemy of reason (rather than religion). That being said, I still have no use for religion. However, I also think that the bible and other religious works are excellent literature and should be read as such if one wants to understand the history of ideas.
Only because radical Christians have moved on to more pressing targets. Most sociological models of hatred deal with perceived threat. Jews do not (either doctrinally or numerically) pose now the credible threat Christians in the Middle Ages believed they did. But, if you swap out Atheist or Communist for Jew, the modern motivating behavior is essentially identical.
FWIW, between the Middle Ages and now we’ve made public expressions of violence basically unacceptable regardless of the motivation (yay, progress!) in most majority-Christian countries, so the new hatreds do not take the same actual form that they used to (pogroms, beatings, etc.). Also, the proportion of Christians that one can reasonably term “radical” has also dropped precipitously.
If you mean the current pope, Benedict XVI, then I wonder where you got that piece of information. As far as I know, he is quite the opposite. Just because I do not agree with someone’s woo-woo, I don’t have to assume the worst as a default.
And if you’re alluding to his membership in the Hitler Youth, he was in good company there, especially when you consider that membership was more or less compulsory, and that growing up in a brainwashing society, children and teenager will often fall for what their “beloved” leaders think and say. The youth is often gullible, which is why christians usually get baptized befor they utter their first word.
That’s a little like saying that Shakespeare is not a real sphere of knowledge, because it is expertise on (fairy) tales. It excludes entirely the notion that there is something worthwhile to know from studying Shakespeare’s plays (or holy texts), such as insight into the human condition, ethics, or behavioral psychology.
BTW, the correct term is “theologian”.
It is also important to note that not every theologian is a theist.
I agree with you, but it is generally helpful to know what you’re talking about. It’s hard to point out some of the problems with Islam without knowing what Islam teaches or how it is understood by its followers. I would not dream of trying to show the problems with Christianity other than the standard ‘religion is bollocks’ thing because I know very little about the different sects and how they approach things other than what is generally known.
No, that would be, like, history of religion, which is a real and completely separate sphere.
That would be a good point except that no one who studies Shakespeare thinks his plays are depictions of real history. Which is important.
No, that would be, like, history of religion, which is a real and completely separate sphere.
You imply a distinction where none exists. Theology *includes* history of religion.
I’m curious what your definition of “real sphere of knowledge” is. If Shakespearean plays bear truthful content (in the form of psychological, sociological, or linguistic observations, commentary on the human condition, or ethics) and yet is essentially content about fictional events, is it to be considered within or not within the “real sphere of knowledge”? As you say, nobody mistakes it for history, so people must study it for some other reason at yet still find knowledge to be found there, no?
Such as it is with religion. Belief is not a requisite of being a beneficiary of the ethical, logical, or sociological implications of a religious text. Those are all real knowledge, and thus theology is a real sphere of knowledge.
Theology is explicitly the study of religion from an internal perspective.
Saying that theology includes the study of the history of religion does not automatically put it on equal footing with cultural anthropology.
In what way does the chosen perspective disqualify it from being a “real sphere of knowledge”?
I never said, BTW, that it was equal in explanatory or interrogatory power with cultural anthropology. (Although now that we’re on the subject, I think Imre Lakatos was on to something when he opined that the social sciences are ill-named). I see theology as having finite, modest, but positive explanatory value. To argue effectively that it doesn’t would require Herculean feats of causative reassignment. If nothing else, studying religion is *essential* to understanding the history and practice of philosophy, not to mention politics and psychology.
Okay, but can you read the above article and say “that’s ridiculous” without being an expert theologian?
Of course.
The attitude that this is not so is what I am primarily objecting to.
That is understandable. Perhaps this is simply a deficiency with the breadth of my experience but I have never personally experienced an actual theologian indicating otherwise; the attitude you attribute to them is unfamiliar to me.
On the other hand, it is common for people who know a *little* theology to have a lot of attitude like what you describe. Much the same state as knowing a little about other things. Certitude and zealotry are, in my experience, inversely proportional with actual quantity of knowledge or experience.
bdemong: Theology is explicitly the study of religion from an internal perspective.
(sorry, can’t reply directly to the message containing this quote–it’s too deep in the tree.)
bdemong, I’m not sure that’s right (though I’m willing to be corrected.) I’ve always thought theology is the study of God (or Gods). This definition is helpful since it provides a contrast with religious studies, which one can pursue without assuming there is(are) God(s).
Tommy
Welcome! :)
But…but I’m Roger! There can be only one! (just kidding)
Welcome, New Roger!
I know this is off topic but I really do not know where to post it. Maybe the moderator can move it to the proper location.
My story.. by Roger #2
After all the debating,and jumping through biblical hermeneutic hoops I just can not believe any more. I just can’t. I have always been analytical and I have always used reason. I applied it to everything in my life, but my belief in God.Which isn’t very consistent is it? All I have is reason and questions.
I remember when I was 14, my brother told me this great news on how Jesus changed his life. He got me so excited and we both prayed. After asking Jesus into my life,do you know what happened? Nothing!! I was a little disappointed, after all my brother is sitting next to me seemingly different. I felt kind of embarrassed. I did not know what to do, so I thought maybe It Affects people in different ways. I went to school and read my bible everyday and even told people about Jesus. I was picked on a lot in school and was beat up quite a bit. I thought of fighting back but the bible says to turn the other cheek, and to love your enemies. So that’s what I did. I see this was absurd now,but back then I did not know any better. After all I was just trying to be like Jesus.
I remember asking my brother questions like “How do you know you’re really saved?” And many other type of questions about my salvation.But even at that age I felt weird, like something was not right. As I got older I kept asking Jesus into my life (after backsliding) but just like before nothing changed inside me. I still did the same sins, and kept asking for forgiveness.Why did God cause a change in other peoples life but not mine? Every time a life crises presented it’s self I would come back to God and then he would vanish as quickly as he came.(Which I see is very common amongst believers,hmmm?) For years I tried to get close to God by reading the bible,praying,and even going to church.I bought apologetic books and now those answers are not as good as they seemed. I bought 3 different bibles so I can somehow get into God’s word and get to know him better. I even prayed to God to instill his holy spirit in me to help me read the bible(especially the old testament) with renewal gusto and excitement. Once again my prayers came unanswered, and money that was spent could have been put to better use ( like strippers,just kidding)
So here I am 24 years later and these problems still persist. I think I was too afraid to acknowledge something was wrong, let alone to say “I do not believe.” Looking back I think my belief in God slowly went away, I was just too scared to admit it,so I continued going thru the motions. My belief in God slowly vanished kind of like my belief in Santa Claus. I can’t tell you what event made me realize that Santa was not real, he just disappeared like a vapor. Just like God disappeared from my life. I kept giving God my love, and devotion but like a bad marriage I was not getting anything in return. Let alone any answers.
I can not fake believing in God,because God would know,and I can’t fool myself any longer.Sometimes I am baffled and even a little envious of those people who talk of “seeing the light”,or having God speak to them etc.” But all I have is reason,and I just can’t fake belief anymore,it’s tearing me up inside. I am a doubter. What does that mean? Basically I am an agnostic. I doubt in the Christan God and want to believe, but I just can’t. It is not for the lack of trying. What does God do to a poor schmuck who has nothing but reason and logic in his life? Someone who just can’t believe anymore? I do not think the bible is inerrant,their are contradictions,and there are prophecies that have failed.So if the Bible is not inerrant, then what confidence do we have in it? Actually to say the bible is not inerrant, pretty much tells me that God did not inspire it. So I would have to retract my agnostic view and say I am an atheist. Basicly I can not believe in the God from the bible, I would like to, but their is just no evidence for it as well as no difference from any other Gods from other religions. How did the world come to be? Science has some theorys,but to say “God did it”, Brings up a question “which God?” Maybe their is some God somewhere and I am open to the possiblility of one.But for now there is no evidence, so I just can not believe in one.
I am a little sad and at the same time I feel like a burden has been lifted. Doubt is not an easy option, but for those who can find no easy answers to the most profound questions it is the only possble one.
“I have a better idea. Maybe they could get a bunch of Muslims to pray in the right direction, and the other Muslims to pray in the wrong direction and see which one comes out ahead with prayer s been answered. I am sure it would be about 50/50.”
Sure if they were praying to affect the outcome of a coin flip.
It depends on the prayer.
If they instead all pray that the sun goes out tomorrow I’m sure it would have a 0 success rate.
No, this is not a reasonable subject of debate in Iraq or most anywhere else in the Arab or Muslim countries. Daniel already posted this video; see the responses there. Also, see what Vidlord said above. I know hundreds and hundreds of Muslims and not a single one of them thinks the earth is flat.
This is going to get very confusing, ‘specially for us bears.
The “turtles all the way down” thing actually isn’t a discworld reference. It’s a quote from a genuine flat-Earth believer. Scaaaary.
IIRC scholars have shown that Copernicus required several equations developed by Islamic mathematicians in order to complete his work. There’s definitely some bitter irony here.
…theology is teotl/theother(E)/el otro(sp). altar is altia(N)=bathe, the reverential of water/atl(N),
and tealtia(N)=thealtar=t/reality. ue altia(N)=big altar=bealte(OE)=beauty, beatitude. in the back-
ground of altia/ue altia is the word, art. i think you are right, someone else’s take on religion
is a powertrip, and their fantasy filtered through their perceptions. the joy of religion/tleco(N)=
rising is to make the journey yourself, and that journey nobody can deny you, the journey
to theother/teotl. i wouldn’t give up on personal theology. it’s worth the struggle and why we
are here: to pay back the gift of life with more life/love as a sign that we understand the gift
and are capable of gratitude to creation by making light(pun)of our own. being serious and
controlling about religion is not the right response, it should be laughter and healthy skepticism
that balances religious malevolence and the blessing just as we are suspended between
heaven and earth, e.g., too much blessing and we become rapture freaks, too little and
we become the inquisition, a holocaust that cost 9m lives in the 15th century(torquemada),
mostly women.
…that wonderful irish gasbag, george moore, wrote a book called, the brook Kerith, about
jesus having survived the crucifiction(pun), rescued by joseph of arimathea, and sent out
into the country to pass the rest of his days as the good shepherd he always was, and
he lives long enough to have a visit from paul, who in those days was the equivalent of
robin williams in cadillac man although perhaps not as much of a genius as robin, let’s
say more like an aluminium-siding salesman for christianity, or the motivator in glengarry
glen ross by david mamet. they meet, jesus and paul, and it’s what we call in mexico,
a des-encuentro, they don’t find each other, i.e., paul does not understand jesus because
paul is all about hustle, evangeling, and elmer gantry jimmy swaggert what’s holy when
you have a product to sell?, and, jesus does not understand paul because paul has got
his sales pitch down like the snake in the garden. you can take moore’s story as a well-
thought out metaphor for the modern church, as he intended. the irish have had a close
look at religion and what it has let them in for, and they’re not quiet about it. the spanish
have a similar problem, an oppressive liturgy for the credulous which is nothing more than
crib death for an entire nation, but they twist it into a blood frenzy that vlad tepes, the
impaler would envy. in mexico it is more medieval, featuring the dark virgin, guadalupe,
who is Tonantzin, solar deity and mother of man. then there’s la santa muerte, old bones
herself, who promises to give you what you shouldn’t have, e.g., the sister of your wife,
through spells and enchantments done on the sly. you are encouraged to go for all the
cardinal sins you can think of, but here the cowboys are indians and religion has a tail.