By Vorjack
We spend a lot of time talking about evidence for God — as we should — but I can’t help but think we’ve skipped a couple of steps.
Consider this excerpt from George H. Smith’s Atheism: The Case Against God:
Mr Jones: “A unie exists.”
Mr White: “Prove it.”
Mr Jones: “It has rained for three consecutive days—that is my proof.”If this exchange is less than satisfactory, much of the blame rests with Mr. White: his demand for proof is immature. Mr. Jones has not specified what an “unie” is; until and unless he does so, “unie” is nothing but a meaningless sound, and Mr. Jones is uttering nonsense. Without some description of an “unie,” the alleged proof for its existence is incoherent. (source)
Before we can even begin to discuss the evidence for God, we need to establish a few things first. For the believer, here are two questions:
- What do you mean when you say the word “God?”
- Based on your answer from the above, how do we go about learning about this “God?” To put it more concretely, how do we judge between two claims about the nature of God?
Let me try and head off some common problems. If you use the word “infinite,” you’re going to have problems providing a deFINITion. Defining something means putting boundaries around it. If God is boundless, then it’s beyond definition. Words like “ineffable” and “transcendent” have many of the same problems.
Phrases like “outside of time and space” share some of these problems as well. All our language is geared towards describing a space that is ordered by time. We simply don’t have the words or the concepts to describe something that is outside our universe. So phrases like “timeless” join the heap of words that simply indicate that we cannot meaningfully talk about God.
So, believers — what do you mean by “God” and how can we learn about this being?
I have a feeling folks are gonna go all via negativa on your ass.
“If God is so ineffable and transcendent that you cannot even define Him, how do you *know* that he’s good and benevolent?”
I wonder how many theists will seriously attempt this, and how many will fall back on good-old “ineffable”?
That’s kinda mean, vorjack, in a really funny way: you removed all their god words and then asked them to define god. i’m gonna go get me some popcorn . . .
I think Vorjack asks a fair question but I believe that there is an unfair assumption when you ask theist to throw out the words you’ve listed, instead they should qualify them. Nobody can can throw out all of these concepts, even atheists use these terms to describe the universe. For example when posed with the problem of existence and the strong evidence of a singularity or beginning of our universe some theorists have embraced some sort of infinite regression of universes. Does this use of the word infinite negate their ideas or give them explanatory power? I would say the latter, though I would have other problems with such theories.
If God is infinite the characteristics of love and person hood can only be explained with some sort of trinitarian assumptions, that is God can’t be love without being able to express it . Otherwise the universe would have to be in existence for love to be shown and love would therefore not be an inherent property of God. That’s why I wouldn’t claim justice is a property of God’s nature, but rather it is an outworking of His nature.
As for the rest of who or what God is, as finite beings I think all that we can speak to the definition of God is what has been revealed. Obviously those attributes can and are debated, but as theists to speak meaningfully also doesn’t require to speak exhaustively.
Timeless is a concept that I have a problem with at least in relation to God interacting with the world and history. If there ever was an aspect in which God was “timeless” is would have been before creation.
As for the second question if you judge revelations of God to be incoherent or irrational, then you are left with very little specific about God. You may be able to draw some philosophical implications with such ideas as Kalamn, but it would be a limited definition.
But if you mean how to judge between different revelations, then I think the degree to which a particular revelation handles the problems of reality and the explanations it gives would be a rational standard to judge by. But even that investigation is mired by assumptions and prejudices isn’t it.
One last note words and stories are the sole problem of the theist, just ask Wittgenstein and Foucault.
I’ve thought for a long time that debate about the existence of god is meaningless drivel for precisely this reason. The definitions of god that people use aren’t really definitions and certainly don’t come close to being sufficient to allow gods and nongods to be distinguished from each other.
Usually what you get when you ask for a definition of the term “god” is rather a list of the qualities of the particular god in which a believer believes. The lists tend to be the sort of things that would be useful in distinguishing the believer’s god from other gods if gods existed and could be distinguished from nongods in the first place, but they’re totally useless as a definition of the term “god.”
I suppose it is possible to debate the existence of specific gods that believers believe in even if debate over whether or not a god exists is futile, but I’ve never yet heard of een a specifically believed in god that wasn’t either defined in a way consisting of obvious contradictions (i.e. omniscient and omnipotent) or defined in such a way as to be an untestable unscientific concept to which the term “exist” has no application.
I don’t think you’re right to say that one can’t define something infinite. A line has infinitely many points; yet we can define what it means to be a line perfectly well.
Thinking about infinite objects can be difficult and counterintuitive (e.g. there are exactly as many even integers as there are integers), but it’s not impossible. It’s a common, but entirely unjustified, claim that we finite beings cannot understand an infinite being.
The case is stronger for “ineffable”, but still has some problems. One’s understanding of an object can be limited, even limited in principle, but that doesn’t mean one entirely lacks understanding of it. Maybe we can’t ever know what goes on inside the event horizon of black hole, but that doesn’t mean we don’t understand black holes *at all*. And it can’t be construed to present a problem with the existence of black holes.
A good subject. The “God of the philosophers” cannot be formally disproven, and Fundagelicals misuse this to defend their belief, although the “God of the Fundagelicals” was thoroughly discredited long ago. By tightening up the definitions, we can make it clear that these are two vastly different Gods.
Christians have the doctrine of the incarnation, which essentially argues that human beings can know God because God has made Godself known on human terms and in human history.
Classical Christianity stands or falls on this doctrine.
So, believers — what do you mean by “God” and how can we learn about this being?
_________________________________________
You expect to learn about something you don’t believe in? Congratulations on the illogic award of the day.
Damn, I have had that exact question for so long. I asked it a lot during my transition from believer to unbeliever. I wish a lot more christians would ask it of themselves.
“Classical Christianity stands or falls on this doctrine.”
This doctrine fails because anyone who has some knowledge of the bible knows “Trinity God” is a false God or a false doctrine of God according to the bible.
Vorjack has made a strong argument asking for the evidences of the personhood of God.
In my process of becoming the atheist I am today, I went through a phase of deistic agnosticism, i.e. I rejected the notion of any personal, knowable, understandable god, and instead extrapolated what properties an entity capable of creating a universe would have to have. Genesis’n'stuff was never a problem, because I didn’t believe in that nonsense for a single moment.
Since we humans are on the verge of creating life ourselves, we can see that there is a huge gap in terms of complexity between creator and creation. So I assumed that a god had to have the following properties
1) degree of complexity larger than earth-based complexity by orders of magnitude.
2) Vast knowledge of natural laws, probably close to omniscience in the field. Especially those outside the universe, as that is the place such an entity had to be in.
3) Very long lifespan compared to single human individuum/subject to different temporal scales.
4) Access to amounts of energy larger than any source within the universe.
5) Some sort of consciousness.
The last point I actually liked the most, because I argued that as impossible as it is for any bacteria to figure out how its creator works, there is no way humans can ever come close to understanding an entity that is capable of creating a universe.
It is not very likely that something like this hypothetical being exists, nor is it very elegant, which is why I rejected the idea of even such an unintrusive “deity” and became an atheist.
The whole point of the belief in God is that you do not define it. Never. As soon as a definition is given reason enters the picture and the whole building crumbles.
Blah Blah BlaHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Everyone speaks and knows nothing. You all read every book BUT The Bible to “know” about The Bible. It’s like believing everything you read on the internet. For all you scholars out there: Try reading The Bible first. How does every worldly person say this, “With an open mind”… and then make your judgements. Don’t read one little scripture verse and twist it. Read it in its entirety and then make a sound judgement. God’s word will defend itself.
http://www.thisguycomic.com/
ok, I was hoping that there wasn’t a whole lotta folks here just talking outside of their head. Do you believe in The Bible since you read it?
“Was” a Christian minister?? why was? Just curious.
Wow, I hear ya. May I ask what it was that actually led you away? I’m not trying to be disrespectful. I promise. Just curious.
Have you ever studied Search for truth II?
I’ve been there on the harder questions thing and for the most part I found the same stuff you did until,……I came home from Korea and asked an Independant Pentecostal Preacher some questions one evening and believe this or not, all the hard questions I ever had were answered over a period of time. It had nothing to do with religion It had to do with well given study non biased.
Hey,
Here is my email. You sound a lot like me in ways and I would love to show you some things concerning this. I promise I won’t preach but I think that I could show you some things that might help. I been there and I know how it feels to just say “ta heck with it”!
Benningblue@yahoo.com
Ok, fair enough.
I don’t like or consider contemporary “christianity” a great thing. The all say that they have faith but will fight and cuss each other. Not all of them but a lot. Now that I have stopped judging them, LOL!, I will go on.
I was on a search for God back in well all my life I guess. I prayed “The Sinner’s prayer” a million times and….nothing.
I asked questions and….nothing. I tried to listen to my mom about it and it seemed that “God” just loved everyone else but me…..then
I asked a Pentecostal preacher “Pastor” on the phone, “How do you get saved? I want to hear your version”. He directed me to Acts 2:38. I read it and couldn’t make heads or tales of what I read. It said, Then Peter said unto them, “Repent, and be baptized everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holyghost”. well…..
I went to church early on Wednesday and I met with a couple of the guys that had been there for a few years. One of the first questions they asked me was, “were you ever baptized”? I said yes. They asked, In what name? I said In the name of the father and the son and the holyghost…….
Just a couple thoughts…
Many of you have brought up good points and questions, centered in frustration possibly. Maybe many of you had bad experiences with religious people, even in your own church. Maybe you once believed in your mind these truths, but one day realized you didn’t really have an inner assurance they were true and had no way to prove them to yourselves. I commend you for thinking about this subject which is of vast importance. For if God does exist, and the Christian message is true, then those who disobey Him and do not believe in His Son are condemned for eternity. (I’ll come back to that thought)
A clarification: A believer according to Christians is one in whom God has done the mighty work of regeneration where by He has opened their eyes to who He is and what He has done (namely, sending His Son to die for our sins). So, based on that definition, those of you claiming you used to be a Christian and now aren’t would have to admit you never were (or I guess if you don’t believe in God, you’d say there are none who have had this happen to them). I’m sure many of you grew up in “Christian” homes, or amongst people that went to church. Many people claim to be Christians or church goers, but aren’t true Believers in the Gospel of Christ.
I realize to many of you the Christian message seems stupid or inconsistent. God says this too as He spoke through Paul these words: “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18, The Bible
Who or what is God in the Judeo-Christian understanding? Well first off He is the Creator of all things and currently upholds all things. Nothing exists without Him. He is eternal: always was, now is, and always will be. His essence is very far above ours (He is transcendent). (See Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 1:1-3, etc.) He is Three Persons in One God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is much greater than we can imagine, or completely understand. No, we cannot fully understand an infinite God, nor can we define Him. The thought of it is ridiculous. But, if there really is a God who is Creator of all, is eternal, all-powerful, etc…..how could we expect to define Him. Creation can point to Him, but not prove He is. The testimony’s of Christians can offer evidence, but not force one to believe. It seems to me only God Himself could reveal Himself to us. We have to be humble and rational enough to admit, that if such a great God could exist, we as puny, created beings couldn’t hope to understand Him on our own. So those are some thoughts on God. I’m not a theologian, just a college student who truly believes I have experienced God in my life.
Back to my thought on us being condemned. It sounds pretty bad, and possibly stupid. Most of us are good people, right? Why should we be condemned and go to hell? That’s not fair is it!!? Well, according to the world’s standard we may be good. According to God’s we aren’t. (Psalm 14, Romans 2,3 etc.) Now we have to read Scripture to understand this. See God is some amazing and awesome, and is our Creator. He deserves all our praise and love, but we often do our own things. We don’t acknowledge Him as God, nor do we serve Him, or love Him. Maybe some of us do to certain degrees, but we have all failed the standard of perfection and holiness in some way. And according to God’s standard, we must be judged for sinning and disobeying His law. God gave the Hebrews His law in the Old Testament (I believe the Hebrews call the first 5 books the Pentatuch, and much of the law is there). He also reveals His law in our consciences and in nature to some degree. I don’t claim to fully understand all of this, but I do know Romans 1 says we are w/o excuse.
Now, I don’t think I’m better than any of you. God’s word tells me that “All have sinned and fall short of His Glory” (Romans 3:23) and that “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). I deserve hell! You deserve hell. Actually, the very fact that we can even breathe air right now is God’s grace. We should be burning in hell this moment because we have sinned against a Holy God. That’s what we deserve. hell. And God wouldn’t be good, if he wasn’t just. Since we have sinned against Him and deserve hell, He can’t just let us off. Someone needs to pay.
This is where it gets crazy. This is where something unfair does happen. John 3:16 “God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” When this verse says “gave” it means that God cause His Son to be born of a woman by the Holy Spirit (the Virgin Birth). He became man, and yet was still fully God (yes hard to believe or understand). Then God allowed His Son, Jesus, to be crucified on a wooded Cross for my sins, and for yours. Jesus bore the wrath of God that I deserved because of my sins. He took my place. More than that, He also gives me His perfect record of righteousness from His perfect life. And Jesus didn’t stay dead, He rose in three days! He came alive as a human again! Then He ascended to heaven with His Father, and now intercedes for us before the throne of God the Father.
Now how does this death apply to us? Romans 10:9-10 says “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” When this happens, God the Father justifies you. You go from being deserving of wrath, to a child of God who will get to spend eternity in heaven with Him. Now this proclamation of belief isn’t some magical prayer. It comes from a sincere, humble heart. It is a true trust in Christ as your only hope for salvation, and therefore your greatest treasure (check our Philippians 3!).
So, here’s what I’d encourage you to do. Even if nothing I’ve written has struck a cord in your soul. Cry out to God. Pray genuinely: “God, I don’t understand this, I don’t even believe in sin or you or any of this stuff…but if you’re real, then you hear me. Help me to come to know this. Reveal it to me.” I’m not saying that the moment you pray this a flash of light will appear and God will open your eyes to the glorious gospel (Jesus died for me). I do believe God will begin to work in you and reveal yourself to you. And heck, if I’m wrong, you wasted 5 minutes of your life. But if I’m right and you’re wrong, and you continue to ignore God, what might the consequences be?
If you do believe what I wrote, and have never trusted in Christ then tell Him that, He’s God, He can hear you. Let Him know you realize you’re a sinner and deserve hell, but that you are grateful that He paid for your sins. Ask Him to come into you life and reveal more of who He is to you and to change your life. Tell Him you want to reject sin and live for Him. And start to look for a strong Bible believing, Holy Spirit filled church so you can grow in your new faith.
For all of you, why not go to an Easter service at a real Christian church. Is there really any harm. If God’s real maybe He’ll speak to you there.
some resources:
desiringgod.org
covlife.org
ps: I have no clue where the bunnies came from :P
pss: sry, about all the Christian lingo, hope it still made sense :)
They said, did you ever notice that Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 to baptize in the (name) singular? I said, no. Well, The actual (name) of The father, son and Holyghost, in Jesus. The name of Jesus has power in the name. It’s like a millionaire writing a check for a million dollars to me. Would I endorse the check, Father, son, and Husband? No, I would endorse my (name)….so………..
It’s also like a bride. The bride takes on the (name) of the groom. If Jesus is the groom and the church is the bride, The church will take on His name. Further, The Gospel is Death, Burial, and resurrection. Death-repentance, burial, baptism in the name of Jesus for (remission) of sins, and Resurrection- being filled with the holyghost . Being filled with the holyghost is what will change us at Jesus’ coming. Jesus said that we must be born again.. born of (water) and of the spirit. We could argue all day and night about natural birth and spiritual. Jesus was baptized and it is a commandment.
Also, we all tend to blame God for all the evil in this world. The truth is, is it all boils down to mankinds’ (choice) God will not force anyone to serve him. He will not make robots. He gives us a choice. The evil we see and the misdirection and all the bad things of this world are the result of mankinds’ sin.
Gos is so awesome that he put the plan into place for us to escape in the afterlife. We must live in the world but we don’t have to be part of the evil of it. Although we fall and fail. God knows that we are made of dust. He can and will forgive you of anything you ak him to. He will also restore you. Once you have repented, and are baptized in his name and you have been filled with the holyghost, you are his. You have taken his name and received his spirit. God (knows) you personally. It’s like when Moses and the children of Israel went through the red sea. It was a symbol of baptism. The Egyptian army represented The sin and slavery to the world coming to kill Israel. God’s people went through the water and the water remitted (covered) all the slavery bondage and sin of the people of Israel and then the cloud followed them by day and the fire by night. The cloud and fire represented The sprirt of God, Thus, (water) and (spirit). God has neverr changed we have as mankind.
If you want evidence, my friend, Pray! Believe me. When you pray God (will) hear you and if you ask him for his spirit, it will hit you like a ton of bricks. It did me and I wasnt in church when it happened. I was at home alone. I was brought to my knees and I could not control the language that bellowed out of my mouth and The feeling was spectacular. I cant fully explain this I would need a whole library to explain this, but it is very true. I was a soldier in the US Army Infantry and I was not a believer until it happened to me. There is a God and His name Is Jesus Christ. He is giving you chance after chance. Even now. Not because of me, because you are tired of all the hoopla. you are tired of fake. He wants you to have the real deal. He wants people who don’t wanna (play) church.
Worship me instead, and I’ll give you two eternal lives in paradise! Who needs evidence when you can get in on a great offer like this?
Don’t be bitter. When we exclude God he is a gentleman and steps back. If we really want him out of the way, welcome to disaster. Man in charge of himself. Disaster!
I have seen God work in peoples’ lives. I (know) there is a God. You will too one day. My words will ring in your mind when you stand before him. Even ole satan himself will bow and proclaim that Jesus is Lord. Everyone will. All of us. God is not slack concerning his promises. We could all feel sorry for ourselves or we can move forward. We are all spoiled brats is what it is. Gimme Gimme Gimme. Make it easier! We all need to grow up. Imagine if you didnt grow up. It would look like, well, the world we live in! LOL!
The Bible is very consistant. It can be proven with the right guidance. Jesus said, “Not everyone who calls me Lord shall enter”. There are many (false) church folks out there spreading a (false) gospel.
Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.Reading your blog i can clearly hear your spirit crying out to know the Lord though you may never admit it. If you are an avid reader wich i hope that you are, fell free to pick up the book The case for Christ. Its writen by a former athiest who is now a believer in God. It’s an awsome book.To answer your question you can simply and humbly ask God who He is and he will reveal himself to you. I pray that you do this with all urgency, for the bible says that no man knows the day nore the hour the Lord cometh.Meanig that we all are on borrowed time to get our lives right with the Most High.And Jesus also said in the book of Revelation,”Behold i am comming soon and My reward is with me.Meaning, we will recieve our reward from God but that will be dependent on the lives we live here on earth.His will is that none perish but all to come to repentance and be with Him in His glory. If you ever feel the need to continue this conversation feel free to email me at Millenniumdisciple@gmail.com. May God bless you unto the Day of Jesus Christ.
Please speak plain English, teleprompter, I’m from Kentucky, help a hick out! LOL!
It’s all good, I’m not here for show or to have a knock down drag out. I am here because what I read disturbed me. I cannot help what you are bitter about. I didnt cause it. God didt either. Choices are what made these thing happen. Choices are why our country is where it is. Choices are why there are corrupt things going on. Choices are what gives people their excuse when things dont go their way. It’s ok to be angry with God. Yes, I said It is (ok) to be angry with God. But “Be angry and sin not”. I speak to myself as I write this. I am not perfect. I cannot question God. Noone can. We all do at times but there is a plan set. Nothing on this planet is really, Ours. We are all borrowing everything. We will not take anything with us when we die. It is all a borrow while we’re here. You have your own path to lead and live. I cannot force you nor would I try to force you to believe anything. You have to make your own choice. I planted. That’s all I can do. I am dust just as you are. I have really enjoyed the conversation though. I must go, but I hope you will keep in touch. Even if you just email and say, “I still don’t believe”. The journey is your choice. You worry too much about things out of your control. Worry about what you can control and I bet your mode of thinking will simmer in the department of bitterness.
See you all around.
Johnny
thisguy38, why should the Bible ever need “the right guidance” to be understood?
God could have made things a bit easier…
If I also had a Shintoist friend and an Hindu friend that were trying to convert me, why should I pick your religion instead of one of theirs?
You’re a funny one telepromter! :-) Good sport!
That’s a good question. Let The Lord lead you. It is not my choice. I can only tell you things. That is why God sent (Men) to tell the Gospel. Ahhem, and women! :-)
Lastly, It’s like people treating others rudely and wrong. I would never stand outside a Gay bar and bash these people “In the name of the Lord”. That doesn’t help. People of (faith) should remember, God hates sin and (not) the sinner. God loves us all. We should tell and serve with love and patience. And Guidance. That’s why we go to school. To learn guidance.
Understood, Teleprompter. If you don’t believe at all, cool. I do and I repect your view. It’s as simple as that. No biggie. I understand your “rage against the machine”. You have a right to be angry, but again, we are (all) made of dust. Man is not perfect.
oh yeah,
If ya’ll get the chance, check out my comic book site. It is my fave. http://www.thisguycomic.com/
I hope you like it.
Good question.
To borrow from St. Paul, why not “the One in whom we live and move and have our being?”
For a believer that would be the traditional Creator.
For an atheist it would be being or reality itself – the fullest context, the biggest picture, in which we literally exist. Including everything we now know about it, which includes scientific knowledge – but who knows how much more to it there is? Cosmologists don’t even know if this is the only universe or one of any number of “bubbles.” Cosmeticians can tell us even less…
And is a universe the only kind of thing that exists? As God says to Job from out of the whirlwind: “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world?” You don’t have to believe in a Creator to reflect that we may be very far from knowing the big picture, the full story, whatever that is.
Yes, religion and spirituality contain plenty of things that are unwise and even grossly foolish. But it points in some profound directions too.
We’d study the One by all available methods: science but also by trying to understand what it means to be human as well as we can. We’re part of the picture.
And if you don’t like capital letters don’t call it the One but probably not just “the one” or people will go “The one what??” May need a neologism. Or Neologism.
Devysciple: “In my process of becoming the atheist I am today, I went through a phase of deistic agnosticism, i.e. I rejected the notion of any personal, knowable, understandable god, and instead extrapolated what properties an entity capable of creating a universe would have to have. ”
Wooooowowowo, it is NOT about rejecting a god. If you have to reject a god before you can become a atheists then you are doing something wrong.
Atheism is nothing about rejecting anything, it is not a fight against god, it is just that we have a life where god and jezus or any god is just a fictional character in some fiction novel.
Tele, Flea, etc:
Uh… no.
I’m saying you don’t have to believe in a Creator god or any god at all to use the idea of the One meaningfully. And I’m not talking about anthropomorphizing reality or being itself.
I’m saying that that full Context in which we exist is awesome and in all liklihood still more awesome than we suspect. It generated, for example, the brains we’re using to have this conversation.
That doesn’t mean it created them the way a person creates things. It’s just a sheer fact that here we are, making use of something between are ears whose complexity is more than we’ve figured out and within a Big Picture that we may not even nearly know. We can run around explaining how things work as best we can but we literally don’t know what we’re doing here or even where “here” is in relation to the Whole of things. We can’t account for the isness of anything at all or of everything taken together. We don’t even know what “everything” is. Science observes phenomena then tries to explain how stuff works and does a pretty good job – as far the observable universe goes. And that’s as far as it goes.
And it’s possible to become aware of the fact of our faith in the big picture, the full context – the One. No belief necessary. It’s just how we’re made.
(Please pardon the spelling. I am typing this from my iPhone and cannot spell check.)
Back to the original post.
We can know God by analogy. We are made, to a certian extent, like Him,so we can understand Him in a limited way.
Aquinas did a good job of defining this idea and expanding on it. For a modern discussion, I would reccomend R. C. Sproul’s web site (search his name and Ligonier, then look for the Ask R. C. link).
For definitions of God, see a book that has been around for a long time: Stephen Charnock’s “The Existence and Attributes of God.”
A modern discussion, based on philosophical arguments, can be found in Norman Geisler’s “Systematic Theology: Volume One.”
You can also google The Westminster Confession of Faith, although the words are not defined so well in that one as the others.
You will find discussions of the trinity and the Person of Christ in all of these. R. C.’s is shorter and more to the point. Those concepts are not self-contradictory.
Can I dive in here? Skimming through posts!
If it can be proved that what we see around us is chance, a product of nature, a co-incidence, a collision of atoms then I expect we can dispense with God. Here we stand the amazing product of chance.
If it cannot be proved, as it hasn’t yet, then I expect we can attribute all this amazing creation we live on, to a creator.
It has got to be one or the other, hasn’t it?
I look at human beings I see the awesome complexity of us all. What an amazing piece of engineering we all are! Then I see how so amazingly nasty we can be. How we can use our talents for destruction as well as good. How can that be? Where does this conflict come from?
Then I think why have people found something to worship since the dawn of time, without ceasing. So many deluded souls searching for something that isn’t there, why?
Perhaps there is something missing in us that we cry out for. Today we cry out for this something missing in consumerism, success, ambition. All these things fill this ‘something missing’ for a while, but then we need to find something else. Why are always searching for something? Why are we never content?
I wonder if something is missing? Oh! and were did right and wrong come from?
But nevermind we can fix all these things ourself, after all, we can make things. Did we make the dust? Did we make the atom? Why can’t we make life? We can certainly destroy it!
The Rock of offense:
“Give glory to the Lord your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.” (Jeremiah 13:16)
The figurative representations of Christ as the foundation rock of the great spiritual house of God (Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6) and also as the water-yielding rock of sustenance in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4) are two of the great symbols of the Bible.
But for those who reject Him, He becomes “a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense. . . . And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken” (Isaiah 8:14-15).
Not only will the stone cause such a one to stumble, but Jesus said, “And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:44). This figure is taken from the fall of the great image in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. “Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet . . . and brake them to pieces” (Daniel 2:34). All the kingdoms of the world were represented in the image, but “the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth” (Daniel 2:35).
“Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient” (1 Peter 2:7-8).
Thus, the stone of stumbling, which is Christ, is also the Word, and it is deadly dangerous to stumble over the holy Scriptures. One should give glory to God before darkness falls and he stumbles upon the dark mountain in the shadow of death.
even if you could prove god exists, then he wouldn’t, for proof denies faith, and without faith, he is nothing.
So what you’re saying is: He either is nothing, or he might as well be?
Then man goes to prove that black is white, and white is black and is killed at the next zebra crossing.
It was years before I got this joke due to English to American translation.
“If there ever was an aspect in which God was “timeless” is would have been before creation. ”
Not to be a bastard, but this sort of thinking has always struck me as deeply problematic. Now I’m no physicist, but I’m fairly sure that the modern conception of time is that it is the sort of thing as space–so when you are talking about a time before creation, it seems to me that you are talking about time before time existed, which seems absurd on its’ face. More puzzling to me is the sense in which God could have ’caused’ the universe given that causality itself seems to be a time-dependent relationship (effects follow causes, not the other way around.) Another worry is that if theism is true, then god must have in some sense ‘decided’ to create the universe–but how can that be? Given that ‘a decision’ is a process that inherently involves changing, and a change seems to require time in order to exist.
So that was a lot longer than I meant it to be, but I guess my question for you is this–is God the creator of the universe, and if so, how do you cash that out in a way that doesn’t require incoherency?
“Since we humans are on the verge of creating life ourselves, we can see that there is a huge gap in terms of complexity between creator and creation. So I assumed that a god had to have the following properties”
just out of curiosity do you believe that this is some sort of in principle limit? Creators > created things or something like that?
It seems to me all the characteristics you ascribed to the divine creator eventually hinge on this: complexity must be produced by something even more complex (and therefore the creator must be extremely wise, long-lived, etc).
This is an invalid assertion. Simplicity can beget complexity (a simple example of this is Conway’s Game of Life, where complexity emerges as a result of the intrinsic dynamics of a simple system).
On the flip-side, this means that God may not have to be infinitely complex although he allegedly created an infinite universe, thus making it harder for atheists to dismiss God as improbable due to him being infinitely complex.
Don’t be daft, I can learn about the adventures of Bilbo Baggins without believing he existed
“You expect to learn about something you don’t believe in? Congratulations on the illogic award of the day.”
Alex’s trophy wall has gotten too full, so hes trying to pawn the awards off on someone else.
Nice try alex.
I can learn about other mythical tales like the Odyssey and the Illiad without believing that the narratives are accurate.
I can learn about Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer without believing that they were real people.
I can learn about Billy Pilgrim without believing in Tralfamadorians.
This is the problem with taking everything fully literally — you spend so much time blindly looking for “absolute truth” that you miss out on the “truth” right in front of your nose.
I believe that the Bible has a lot of “truth” in it, but I also believe that Calvin and Hobbes has a lot of “truth” in it, but that doesn’t mean I believe in anthropomorphic stuffed toy tigers.
the stupid little troll is back being as insulting and dimwitted as ever
YOU did. You weren’t born a christian – you didn’t believe in god till someone ‘taught’ you about him.
Congratulations on winning the ‘Gee I should have thought about that a bit more thoroughly’ award of the day.
No one believed that the Earth was round until we had some way to tell what its circumference was.
“You expect to learn about something you don’t believe in? Congratulations on the illogic award of the day.”
Don’t you HAVE to learn about something before you believe in it?
Please explain yourself.
“You expect to learn about something you don’t believe in? Congratulations on the illogic award of the day.”
Don’t you HAVE to learn about something before you believe in it?
Please explain yourself.
So, obnoxious believers, you expect people who don’t believe in a god until there is better evidence and reasoning to suddenly believe because an obnoxious lout says “You don’t get it and I ain’t gonna tell you”? Congratulations on the illogic reward of the century.
I’d say that it is true Christianity stands or falls on the question of the Incarnation, but wouldn’t go so far as to say that is the lynchpin of the Man-knows-God thing. After all, I don’t think that the Jews would say they don’t know God, and they don’t rely on an Incarnated God to do it.
That’s a good way to put it.
This is a good way to put it yet I can’t take seriously any sentence that uses the word fundagelical. (Even if the objects of the word fit the inane description.)
Calvin and Hobbes-ism. Now that would be a religion I can follow! ;)
To be honest, I don’t know. I guess it is valid as a general principle, since we have ample empiric evidence on this issue (consider art, technology, social rules). Nothing we have come up with as of now even remotely matches our own complexity (and, yes, I know, I’m owing you a definition of complexity as well).
What bothers me are the possibilities in genetic research and especially in AI, since there are no principal limitations to the outcome of our research in terms of complexity compared to the “creators”. I doubt we will see the dawning of Humankind 2.0 due to mostly ethical considerations, but I hope to live long enough to see an AI go Cogito, ergo sum
If it turns out that said AI is more complex than a human being, then my base assumption is null and void.
On the other hand, there’s (again I guess, hopefully qualified) a high probability that the overwhelming complexity of the hypothetical AI is not a result of human creation, but of a sped up version of evolution, which is bound to the laws of technology, not nature.
In a nutshell, I have not witnessed, first or second hand, any occasion in which that which was created was more complex than the creator itself. As soon as I am confronted with new evidence, I will re-assess my position and hopefully come to a conclusion that is closer to truth.
Your daftness apparently comes in the form equivocating a context of reality and that of fiction.
But how do you *know* that the Bible constitutes reality?
Whutchu talkin’ about? Lord of the Rings is not reality.
Daniel, can’t you please ban this Alex Guggenheim prick? He brings NOTHING to any discussion he’s involved in, other than to invite the ire of everybody else. Plus, he’s a complete prick. I might have mentioned that before.
LOL…”I have a bad feeling about this…” (any Star Wars movie)
My thinking is that we’re going to get a metric ton of posts saying that we can “learn” about this being via:
* The Bible
* Nature
* The smile of a baby after it passes gas.
Because the little voice in his head tells him it’s real. Gosh, Tele, don’t you get it?? ;-)
i agree with this point. which is why my tactic for going after Christians, is to ask specific questions about claims they make of the invisible sky daddy.
for instance when holy rollers claim that we get our morality from god i ask them if it was moral for god to pull atrocities such as the flood of Noah. i also ask them to define what they mean by morality, objective or otherwise.
when they claim that the bible is gods word or his teachings for man i ask them for examples of his word, if they pull out one of the good verses i pull out one of the bad ones such selling your daughter into slavery.
when they claim that god is just i ask them if god is just then why are we currently being held responsible for the behavior of Adam and eve. I’m talking about being born into sin.
when they say god is loving , i ask them if god is so loving then exactly why would he allow Satan free access to eve without any warning to eve that Satan was coming.
if god is love then exactly why would he allow Satan free access to eve knowing how naive eve was and how cunning Satan is. also how come god didn’t tell eve himself like he told Adam not to eat the fruit.
don’t you know for some reason when they are presented with question that directly contradict what they claim god is for some reason they lose their ability to read.
also why how could god possible be a male wouldn’t he transcend what it is to be male or female that has always bothered me. does god even fit the definition of what it is to be a male.
Ummmmmmm…. you do know that Daniel was a Christian minister. He attended seminary, and I guarantee you he read the whole bible.
As did I. In fact, the bible is the best deconversion book there is.
wait, you mean that the internet isn’t the absolute truth? damn, that means my whole life was based on a lie. now i have to find some other source full of unprovable information to run my life. i guess i could give the Bible a try.
“Don’t read one little scripture verse and twist it.”
I don’t twist. I leave that to the apologists.
Lol man! Great poe!
(If this is not a poe you are in trouble man)
Duhhhhhh…. Reading this is destroying brain cells….
thatdimwit38 needs to read the blogs a little more before shooting off at the keyboard. I’ve lost count of the people posting on here that HAVE read the bible.
No: I wouldn’t want to be like the christians.
This is how “God’s word” defends itself
No. Reading and studying the Bible is what caused me to leave Christianity for good.
I have read the bible and many other works of fiction.
The literary style is cumbersome at best and the storyline is, well, disturbing at best.
Bit like reading a Stephen King novel that just never seems to end.
I believe the Bible exists, strictly speaking. I also think that it’s full of a bunch of nonsense that is particular to a group of people living a Bronze Age existence and can no more take their ruminations as life lessons any more than I would trust a random person off the street to diagnose any medical issues I might have.
Read the “about” section of this website. He explains it there.
“why was?”
I think “was” is used because he’s not any more. I.e. the usual definition of “was” that most English speakers are familiar with.
Duhhhhh…. DUH!
I asked harder and harder questions of my leaders in the church. They didn’t know the answer. I sought out apologists. They didn’t know. I even sought out a Christian philosopher of science. He didn’t know. People couldn’t explain the violence, the logical inconsistencies, the subjugation of women, the lack of instruction on how to raise children (other than using a rod on them), etc.
I slowly accepted over time that religion (all) is false, inflexible, and against the best interest of humankind.
No, but I think you are asking me if I have ever done bible study, and I have: BSF
http://www.bsfinternational.org/
Well, I wouldn’t say that a preacher is a non-biased source; however I get what you mean. Even so, please trust me when I tell you that I spent many many many years trying to make Christianity work. Trust me when I tell you that I couldn’t get it to.
I’d prefer to talk here. That way other posters can benefit from the discussion.
“I promise I won’t preach but…”
Too late.
So- go for it! What do you have to say?
Then what?
thisguy38,
Do you think you could write longer posts instead of a series of smaller posts? Thanks.
Thanks for sharing your story. I’ve heard the claims you are making here over and over. At this point, I require evidence.
“Also, we all tend to blame God for all the evil in this world. The truth is, is it all boils down to mankinds’ (choice)”
So all the earthquakes and tsunamis and tornadoes are due to mankind’s choice? I don’t get it.
Also, when you are the supreme creator and ruler of everything, attributed with omniscience and omnipotence, it is rather lame to lay the blame for stuff on your inferior subordinates. It seems, quite frankly, un-Godlike.
thisguy38, you said evil comes from our choices. If so, please describe exactly whose choice it was to wipe clean thousands of miles of shoreline in south Asia in December 2005? Or whose choice it was to flood the upper midwest recently? Or whose choice it was to give my grandmother ALS?
I’m dying to know who made those “choices.” Please elaborate.
Again, these are claims I’ve heard before. Yet there is no evidence. Do you have any evidence of your claims?
It seems to me you never got any actual answers to your hard questions. Instead, you simply surrendered yourself completely to God, trusting he will make everything all right.
Good on you, but as such not very useful to others pondering hard questions, like, say, the many biblical examples of the blatant cruelty and questionable ethics of an allegedly all-loving, morally superior god.
You think I haven’t prayed? I’ve prayed.
But praying doesn’t help with the logical inconsistencies of the bible. They’re still there.
“I could not control the language that bellowed out of my mouth and The feeling was spectacular.”
More symptoms. Uncontrolled vocalizations and feelings of euphoria. Anyone got a copy of the DSM-IV?
Thisguy38, before you said this:
But just now you put it like this:
So you had hard questions about the bible, but you didn’t believe it. Keep in mind, those questions are only hard if you’re not willing to take, “The bible is false.” as an answer – ie. you’re a believer.
There’s the crap foundation to the belief: that this life is something we have to “escape” from. What a sad, pathetic belief.
That’s the pathetic belief that causes a lot of forlorn, pathetic people to turn to christianity as an anesthetic.
Sounds like mental illness.
.
Not so. He doesn’t exist. IF he existed, then yeah, it would definitely be his fault.
I don’t. You’ve presented nothing of value or credibility. We can’t know him, as the original blog asked, by your internal delusions.
Your internal delusions, accompanied by uncontrollable fits or outbursts of nonsense yelling, are not enough for anyone else to know. Even *you* know nothing but the hallucintations going around and around in your head.
Really? So why do countries which have some of the lowest levels of religiousity still have some of the world’s highest living standards?
Maybe it’s not such a “disaster” after all?
Non-belief is not bitterness.
So why should Satan get evidence but not me? Am I so much worse?
“We are all spoiled brats is what it is.”
And this is exactly what causes me dismay about Christianity.
It tells us that we are such horrible people and then says we aren’t good enough not to be condemned. It’s flat-out manipulative.
These sorts of apologetics are like inflicting pain on someone and then trying to sell them the cure for the pain you inflicted.
It’s like you’re in an abusive relationship: you’re just no good, so you deserve whatever punishment I think is appropriate. Is that really love? I don’t think so.
Wait a minute, here…you’re using the Bible to demonstrate that what is in the Bible is true?
Couldn’t you use the same approach to “prove” the Qur’an?
“The Bible is very consistent?” Are you serious?
I grew up one state over from Kentucky. You have no excuse. :P
You are asking Tele to speak plain English but you do not either.
Your posts are all either direct bible quotes or phreases you could only learn at bible study.
You never seem to speak your own mind, rather regurgitate other peoples “teachings”.
Why don’t you think for yourself and speak plain English?
Hey thisguy – you ask tele to speak in plain English but you clearly do not.
All your posts so far are either direct bible quotes or phrases you could only hear in bible study.
Why don’t you think for yourself and say what you think?
Sweden is a real hell-hole.
thisguy38,
I don’t think your god was responsible for any of this either.
In case you haven’t noticed, I don’t even think s(he) exists.
“It’s ok to be angry with God.”
None of us are “angry with God” — we don’t see enough evidence to believe in any gods, and also we are angry with a lot of people who would impose their religious beliefs on us to do things we don’t like.
I am not “angry” at a god I don’t even believe in — but I am disturbed by a lot of what religions do and what people do and have done in the name of religions.
‘I didnt cause it. God didt either. Choices are what made these thing happen.”
You really think choices are responsible for tsunamis, earthquakes and tornadoes?
I speak to myself as I write this.
Talking to self; we should start a list of symptoms. Maybe we can help this fellow out with a diagnosis.
Surely you don’t mean, “The Thing Which Made The Things For Which There Is No Known Maker”!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVbnciQYMiM&feature=channel_page
“I would never stand outside a Gay bar and bash these people “In the name of the Lord”. That doesn’t help.”
But you would stand silently by while they were sentenced to an eternity in the pits of Hell. That’s so much nicer. Infinite sentences sort of blows the concept of “punishment fit to the crime” out of the water.
God hates sin and (not) the sinner.
How is the action separate from the person?
No takers yet? Do I have to offer virgins?
Seriously, what do you think I would *do* for an eternity? Suck up to you? I don’t really feel like it.
“Now, I don’t think I’m better than any of you.”
And yet, you think that you are going to spend eternity in a nice comfy place, while I am roasting in the pits of Hell. That’s why your claims of humility do not impress me.
“Just a couple thoughts…
Many of you have brought up good points and questions, centered in frustration possibly. Maybe many of you had bad experiences with religious people, even in your own church. Maybe you once believed in your mind these truths, but one day realized you didn’t really have an inner assurance they were true and had no way to prove them to yourselves. I commend you for thinking about this subject which is of vast importance. For if God does exist, and the Christian message is true, then those who disobey Him and do not believe in His Son are condemned for eternity. (I’ll come back to that thought)”
-If the “bible” is true, then you are arguing a partial “truth” as truth, you are telling a lie based on your argument.”
“A clarification: A believer according to Christians is one in whom God has done the mighty work of regeneration where by He has opened their eyes to who He is and what He has done (namely, sending His Son to die for our sins). So, based on that definition, those of you claiming you used to be a Christian and now aren’t would have to admit you never were (or I guess if you don’t believe in God, you’d say there are none who have had this happen to them). I’m sure many of you grew up in “Christian” homes, or amongst people that went to church. Many people claim to be Christians or church goers, but aren’t true Believers in the Gospel of Christ.
I realize to many of you the Christian message seems stupid or inconsistent. God says this too as He spoke through Paul these words: “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18, The Bible”
-The problem with christians who claim their eyes are opened by the power of God yet, unable to speak the truth of what is written in the bible for donkey of years is the evidence that they are lying, they actually become blind to the words of the”bible”
“Who or what is God in the Judeo-Christian understanding? Well first off He is the Creator of all things and currently upholds all things. Nothing exists without Him. He is eternal: always was, now is, and always will be. His essence is very far above ours (He is transcendent). (See Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 1:1-3, etc.) He is Three Persons in One God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is much greater than we can imagine, or completely understand. No, we cannot fully understand an infinite God, nor can we define Him. The thought of it is ridiculous. But, if there really is a God who is Creator of all, is eternal, all-powerful, etc…..how could we expect to define Him. Creation can point to Him, but not prove He is. The testimony’s of Christians can offer evidence, but not force one to believe. It seems to me only God Himself could reveal Himself to us. We have to be humble and rational enough to admit, that if such a great God could exist, we as puny, created beings couldn’t hope to understand Him on our own. So those are some thoughts on God. I’m not a theologian, just a college student who truly believes I have experienced God in my life.”
-According to the “bible” there is only one God. If you stop deifying the “names of God”, maybe your eyes might be open to the “truths” in the”book”.
B”ack to my thought on us being condemned. It sounds pretty bad, and possibly stupid. Most of us are good people, right? Why should we be condemned and go to hell? That’s not fair is it!!? Well, according to the world’s standard we may be good. According to God’s we aren’t. (Psalm 14, Romans 2,3 etc.) Now we have to read Scripture to understand this. See God is some amazing and awesome, and is our Creator. He deserves all our praise and love, but we often do our own things. We don’t acknowledge Him as God, nor do we serve Him, or love Him. Maybe some of us do to certain degrees, but we have all failed the standard of perfection and holiness in some way. And according to God’s standard, we must be judged for sinning and disobeying His law. God gave the Hebrews His law in the Old Testament (I believe the Hebrews call the first 5 books the Pentatuch, and much of the law is there). He also reveals His law in our consciences and in nature to some degree. I don’t claim to fully understand all of this, but I do know Romans 1 says we are w/o excuse.
Now, I don’t think I’m better than any of you. God’s word tells me that “All have sinned and fall short of His Glory” (Romans 3:23) and that “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). I deserve hell! You deserve hell. Actually, the very fact that we can even breathe air right now is God’s grace. We should be burning in hell this moment because we have sinned against a Holy God. That’s what we deserve. hell. And God wouldn’t be good, if he wasn’t just. Since we have sinned against Him and deserve hell, He can’t just let us off. Someone needs to pay”.
-Have you forgotton that Paul also said the jews are partially blind? Since there is no diffence between the jews and gentiles, you are playing God concerning the salvation of the “bible”.
“This is where it gets crazy. This is where something unfair does happen. John 3:16 “God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” When this verse says “gave” it means that God cause His Son to be born of a woman by the Holy Spirit (the Virgin Birth). He became man, and yet was still fully God (yes hard to believe or understand).”
-Since you quote the book of John, can’t you see it is not like you say?
Andrew, you said, among other things:
“Maybe many of you had bad experiences with religious people, even in your own church.”
Theists and Christian apologists especially use this claim — what I call the “bad experience objection” — to dismiss any and all criticism of religion. Sorry, but this is completely invalid. First of all, this objection is based on something akin to the “True Scotsman fallacy,” and is premised on the idea that, had non-believers simply hung around with the “right” theists, e.g. those that didn’t taint them with a bad experience, they’d accept the veracity of that religion. Unfortunately, just as there is no such thing as “a True Scotsman” (for which that fallacy is named), there is no such thing as “a True Christian.” A Christian is anyone who claims to follow Christ. Period. Differences among Christians are just that … differences among Christians … and have no bearing on an objective observer.
Furthermore, this objection assumes it’s a bad idea to reach conclusions about a religion based on what its followers do. This also is untrue. As it turns out, an objective observer of a religion can ONLY learn its value, by watching what its believers do. If they do bad things, it is NOT in any way illogical to judge that religion poorly. A single experience may be anecdotal, but it remains logical to question the value of a religion that offers people “bad experiences.”
This objection is also predicated on the assumption that, since people are people, some are good and bad, and that bad experiences will inevitably be part of any religious experience. This is invalid in the case of Christianity (and the other JCI faiths too) because those religions all claim to make their followers better and more moral people. One would expect bad experiences to be rare with Christians, since their Christianity makes them better people. That Christians are no more or less moral or upstanding than non-Christians, in fact shows that their Christianity DOES NOT actually have the power to make them better people. The logical conclusion from that, is that Christianity does not in fact possess the power to make people better, that it claims it has.
You also cited Paul in his explanation that Christianity makes sense even though it doesn’t: “I realize to many of you the Christian message seems stupid or inconsistent. God says this too as He spoke through Paul these words: “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”” That you quote Paul rationalizing away the stupidity of his beliefs, in defense of your own, is not to your credit. Something that is nonsense remains nonsense. Period. It does not gain veracity because it is nonsense (as Paul argues in this letter). What Paul was doing was getting people to go along with his nonsense, like the Wizard of Oz warning Dorothy, “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!” Furthermore, lots of swindlers have used similar reasoning to get people to go along with them. Jim Jones and David Koresh leap to mind, along with many others.
You also say, as many theist apologists do: “Now, I don’t think I’m better than any of you.” This hasn’t stopped you, however, from telling us what we have to think. In other words, you have assumed yourself to have this authority. That you would do so completely contradicts your claim of humility.
You also said, “Back to my thought on us being condemned. It sounds pretty bad, and possibly stupid.” This brings to mind an important point. Christian thought assumes God created uncountable billions of people, specifically in order to destroy them for having been “sinful.” How did they get that way? They certainly didn’t create themselves, so it was not by their own hands. He made them that way. It is illogical and rash of God to do this … and obviously so. A God who would create beings specifically in order to cast them into eternal perdition, ought — by all that is moral or ethical — to be resisted rather than worshipped.
How, exactly, do you find comfort in believing in a rash and illogical being? Furthermore, how exactly do you expect anyone else to do so? If morals and ethics are important to you, what exactly do you find moral or ethical about such a God? Do your morals and ethics not require you to resist him instead?
Oh wait. I forgot, that same God taught you your morals and ethics. Sorry. Foolish question. Forget I asked.
Eternity? We’ll deal with that later. In the meantime, a nice donation once a week would suit me fine. This should not be viewed a quid pro quo, just a gesture of your sincerity.
Donations? And all you’re willing to offer are *virgins*? Your religion is a joke. ;)
And it’s the sinner who would be roasting in Hell _for an eternity_.
Says you, infidel.
*plonk*
LOL. Whatever.
Marlon, you wrote:
“Reading your blog i can clearly hear your spirit crying out to know the Lord though you may never admit it.”
How condescending and rude of you to presume to know what’s on anyone’s mind. There is no such thing as telepathy. (And even if there were, it’s forbidden to you: see Deut 18:10.)
“If you are an avid reader wich i hope that you are, fell free to pick up the book The case for Christ. Its writen by a former athiest who is now a believer in God.”
There are also books by former preachers who are now atheists (e.g. Dan Barker who wrote Losing Faith in Faith. If you are not impressed with that book, then I’m not impressed with Strobel’s. (Yes, I have read it; and yes, I found it trite and inane.)
“To answer your question you can simply and humbly ask God who He is and he will reveal himself to you.”
This would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I cannot ask God to do anything unless I first assume he exists. Thus, any “answer” I get will only be viewed in terms of his existence. This proves nothing whatsoever.
“I pray that you do this with all urgency, for the bible says that no man knows the day nore the hour the Lord cometh.”
You think the way to convince people of something is to make threats? Really? Why would anyone cave in to wishes of a deity that has to threaten people with eternal perdition?
“His will is that none perish but all to come to repentance and be with Him in His glory.”
If that is truly “the will” of an omnipotent being, then it WILL happen … no force in the universe could prevent it … and it WILL happen REGARDLESS of what I believe.
If you are correct about God, then we all WILL be “saved” no matter what happens. If, on the other hand, we are NOT all somehow “saved,” this means that God will not have achieved “his will,” and that in turn will have proven him not omipotent.
Which is it? Is he omnipotent and wants everyone saved? Then we will be. But if he’s not omnipotent, how can he be the God you worship? He would have to be something other than he claims to be, which makes him a disingenuous being.
The Book “The Case For Christ” is in large part responsible FOR me de-conversion.
We read it in my church’s adult Bible Study Group, and it forced me to confront the Tough Questions that Mr. Strobel posed, but did NOT satisfactorily answer. Particularly the parts about Hell.
What that book started, Bart Ehrman’s preface in “Misquoting Jesus” completed.
I realized that the “Tough Questions” are only Tough if you refuse to accept the simplest answer; that the stories are simply that: Stories. They contain as much “Truth” as Aesop’s Fables and Mother Goose’s Nursery Rhymes.
Yes a lot does turn on that definition of complexity; out of curiosity, does the internet count as more complex than its’ creator? It certainly seems to have more information than any individual human ever could.
You also did bring up my bigger worry for this principle, AI. It seems to me that if it is possible for humanity to create an AI then it follows that that principle is strictly speaking false. Since all you’d have to do to make the AI capable of more complexity than humans (depending on your definition of course) is plug it into some hardware that was bigger/faster than the human brain (which I’m pretty sure we already have.)
Maybe it should have a status like superposition in geology, something that is usually but not always true. But if that is the case then we are kind of screwed with regards to drawing conclusions about the nature of a universe creator.
ditto
…and we’ll likely never hear from “thisguy38″ again; and if we do, it’ll likely be full of saccharine platitudes about “God’s mercy” and “grace” and will ignore what you wrote.
(I retract my previous. Ignore it…)
Awesome vid teleprompter, thx.
I agree with this, if you need some right guidance to understand the bible then this is called a design flaw.
It is if you were once a believer. There’s a step where you have to become, y’know, not-a-believer-anymore. This can as easily and legitimately be described as rejection of the hypothetical entity once believed as anything else.
@Elemope: Thanks for already answering Olaf’s objection.
@Olaf: Just to make things a little more obvious. If you believed that you could walk through walls (no, not through the door or windows, just through solid concrete), repeatedly testing this hypothesis would result in a) a headache and possible head injury, and b) in you rejecting your initial assumption and in the future in relying on doors to switch rooms. I hope all all unclarities are gone now ;-)
Angry at god would be as odd as beeing angry at Darth Vader for an atheist.
Well, I guess that the internet, while it is enormous and contains a lot of information, it does not qualify as more complex than its creators, for it is made up of comparatively simple sub-units. Just like a single ant isn’t very complex, but what a hive of social insects pull off can be quite impressive.
On the other hand, a single neuron is not that complex, but when you put a few hundred millions or billions together, the outcome may be staggering.
Well, my preliminary definition of complexity, in this regard, would be “Can do anything the creator is able to do, while excelling in at least one area”. So Deep Blue doesn’t count, since it is unable to make a cup of coffee. ;-)
But still, even if the assumption of “complexity of creation < complexity of creator” is not watertight, the counter-argument relies on sheer chance, improbability, and maybe good luck. I think even if we created an AI superior to ourselves, it would not prove the principle wrong. It would just dent it a little bit, demanding a better theory from its inventors.
I know my argument is as watertight as a sieve, but that’s the result of partying hard… So as soon as I am sober, I will try to be more concise.
So, having slept over my last comment, I will try to approach the topic of ‘complexity’ a bit more structured.
When I checked out what Wikipedia has to say about it, I found that my initial assumption that there is no single all-encompassing definition of complexity. In fact, it seems very difficult to define. But one sentence closely resembles my personal definition:
Warren Weaver has posited that the complexity of a particular system is the degree of difficulty in predicting the properties of the system if the properties of the system’s parts are given.
Following this statement, an AI or a human being certainly qualifies as highly complex, since predicting their behaviour would be/is a rather tricky task (ask philosophers, psychiatrists, sociologists, psephologists, and so on)
For the internet, however, I guess its the other way round: It is hard to predict what a single server, router, or client is doing at any specific point in time, while on a large scale, the ‘behavior’ of the internet remains rather stable and predictable. You can rely on the fact that most of the time, your mails will be received, your packets won’t get lost, your favourite website still will be there the other day.
That’s I guess the best I can do on this issue. You are encouraged to blow more holes into the concept. We may all learn a thing or two…
You are absolutely right.
But I have to put your comment into the right perspective. At the time I made those assumptions, I was still looking for a god.
Your argument, at that point, was to me like referring to pure chance. A hypothetical entity created the universe by mere chance. That’s not what you want to think when you are around 13 years old and have a christian background.
Today, I know the principles of self-orgaization, but I still want to interject that, while it is not a planned process, it lacks intention. And one of the myths of a creating god is that he intended to do so, that it did not happen by accident.
So, basically I agree with you, that more complexity can be a result of less complexity, but that this takes away the intention of any creator, rendering it meaningless in terms of abrahamic religions. I the end, we are just arguing about something we both know does not exist. ;-)
Psi– You know they’re gonna say that it is because the world is fallen after Eve’s *transgression*. Yeah, cuz I’m sure your Grandma deserves her ALS because of Eve.
It’s cruel isn’t it? :(
“And yet, you think that you are going to spend eternity in a nice comfy place, while I am roasting in the pits of Hell. That’s why your claims of humility do not impress me. “
- I’ve always been arguing at this blog that good and moral atheists will be going to heaven, because our eternal destiny is based on our own volition and not of our circumstance. Your ‘atheism’, I’d like to believe, was a result of your circumstance. Just as a person who was born in Pakistan, who’s circumstance, societal and regional influences, would make him a Muslim.
Miguel– that is very good of you. Because I sincerely hope that if God asks me why I didn’t believe, that I’d be able to say “Well, you gave me intelligence, and I used it.”
That being said, I *hope* there is a god.
How about “the God of the Biblical literalists”?
So,you’re agnostic, right?
“You can also google ”
God is a google search, interesting.
I’m someone who thinks not enough attention has been paid to the experiential aspect of religion and spirituality. Pretty much all dialog in this area consists of debate over beliefs.
My book doesn’t discuss doctrine at all and I deliberately don’t give my own position on the existence of a Creator-god (which is easy to withhold, since, again, the book just isn’t about doctrine) because I want to keep the focus for once squarely OFF of belief and on things that I think have real potential to unite people who are willing to seriously reflect on the sheer facts of human experience within that domain which I have to call “spiritual” for want of a better word and despite its association with a lot of things that I frankly think are kind of wacky in addition to things I respect…
Forget Eric Clapton, the real God is Bill Watterson (C&H author, for those who don’t know).
@Reginald Selkirk
“So all the earthquakes and tsunamis and tornadoes are due to mankind’s choice? I don’t get it.”
Creation, including us, were made perfect. We messed it up ( i.e the original sin of disobedience in mankind) We still mess it up, daily. As we reject God and continue in our own selfish and disobedient lives; that includes believers and non believers. And before you jump at me for being superior: I am not. I mess it up as well. A Christian is still a disobedient and sinful person. The difference is that they are redeemed by grace.
God set a plan to redeem the world back to its original state, this has been accomplished through Christ.
One day God will make a new heaven and new earth, there will be no more bad things going on. It will be perfect again.
And yes, mankind is to blame for all that is happening, not God. Man chooses to disobey God, if he didn’t then bad things would not happen. But it is impossible for us to do that, this is something you cannot deny.
Blessings