Christians on the Rapture Ready forum are very offended and disgusted by the Google fossil logo. Here are some excerpts:
I almost threw my laptop it made me soooooooooo mad! Made me wonder what the logo would look like after we’re taken outta here!
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I’m not surprised Google has put the missing link logo on there, one of their founders is a Russian and we know atheism is strong in Russia. Not surprising at all.
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“Scientist unveil fossil of Darwinian masillae’…I mean..I am really tired of this stupid AC world… MY FATHER IS YHWH…MY GOD AND MY SAVIOUR YESHUA and THE KADOSH RUACH….they worship satan…. Sick stuff…
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I find myself mad and in disbelief that googel would celebrate such an out right falsehood.
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THAT is why I use BLINGO instead of Google.
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This is just disgusting. Disgusting.
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Gee Whiz, if Google is trying to stay in touch with what is going on in the world today, they should change their logo to have burning red flames of fire around it…… GOOHELL
I don’t want to believe people like this actually exist, but alas, there is too much evidence…
Update 11pm: They are very excited about all the “proclaimed non-believers” showing up at their site today:
HALLELUJAH!! PRAISE GOD!
This thread caused a huge stir on another site, proclaimed non-believers. That in turn created curiosity. Which in turn brought a bunch of them here to see what was the big deal.
They then went back to their forum and laughed at us and made fun of us.
But I betcha it also got some of them to thinking and their visitation to our site may very well have brought someone to the Lord. If out of all those, just one was saved, it was well worth the traffic issues it caused on this site.
I hate to break it to them, but I highly doubt anyone was “saved” today by their overreaction to a Google logo.
The stupid … make it stop … it burns …
Aww, come on , Daniel,
“”I don’t want to believe people like this actually exist, but alas, there is too much evidence…””
If evolution from their form to ours was true, there would be real transitional forms somewhere.
Nice! I have been looking for the link between Christiaous Idioticus and homo sapiens, and have not had any luck. Checking DNA for matches, they are not related to anything on this planet. Maybe they were unintelligently designed. :-D
Have you fallen for the ol’ “sky-God” fallacy in your attempts to poo poo Christianity? Contrary to popular opinion, Christ (christianity) doesnt teach that concept, actually quite the opposite. At least get your misinformation in order before you take a swipe huh? lol
Jesus ascended into…
the spirit realm…from whence He (and we) came…
Which is where?
“Where did you come from, baby dear?, Out of the everywhere into here.” George MacDonald
“So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.” (Mark 16:19)
UP!
SKY = UP
Yes, the sky is up above, just as the heavenly realm is above the natural, physical realm.
Sounds like a U.S. Air Force commercial huh? lol
Daniel…the natural illustrates the spiritual. The sky (spirit realm) is up above, superior to the lower physical/natural/visible realm.
As far as “sky-God goes, I could list a dozen verses (if we wanted to play that ol’ game again which neither of us do) that tell us exactly where Christ, the Holy Spirit can be found…and its IN us, not in the sky. I will spare you the list…for now, ha. :)
Its not a “us down here, Him up there” relationship, John 17 lays it out pretty good…union, Oneness.
PS…did you read my Aunt “IDA” poem I posted today?? I spent a lot of time writing it just for UF!! It wont win
I did see it, very clever John.
From Etymonline (which the Christaeus Idioticus haven’t gotten around to protesting yet):
heaven
O.E. heofon “home of God,” earlier “sky,” possibly from P.Gmc. *khemina- (cf. Low Ger. heben, O.N. himinn, Goth. himins, O.Fris. himul, Du. hemel, Ger. Himmel “heaven, sky”), from PIE base *kem-/*kam- “to cover” (cf. chemise). Plural use in sense of “sky” is probably from Ptolemaic theory of space composed of many spheres, but it was also formerly used in the same sense as the singular in Biblical language, as a translation of Heb. pl. shamayim. Heavenly “beautiful, divine” is from 1460, often (though not originally) with reference to the celestial “music of the spheres;” weakened sense of “excellent, enjoyable” is first recorded 1874.
Claid….yes, congratulations you are on the right track my friend! The celestial, the divine….heaven.
“Have you fallen for the ol’ “sky-God” fallacy in your attempts to poo poo Christianity? Contrary to popular opinion, Christ (christianity) doesnt teach that concept, actually quite the opposite. At least get your misinformation in order before you take a swipe huh? lol”
Everything about Christianity is “misinformation”. To try and order it would be a lesson in futility. lol
ALL Christians pick and choose, out of a book, what they want to believe… however there are sins which condemn a person to hell for all of eternity (i.e. not believing in YOUR lord Jesus Christ). How can a belief system have such rigidity when it comes to the afterlife but be so ad-hoc when it comes to present-life? Does that make any sense? I didn’t think so. lol
What truly bothers me, is that when you die, your consciousness ceases to exist, so all these religious people won’t ever get the chance to realize that they were wrong. If I could be granted 1 wish it would be for everyone to have 5 seconds to reflect on their belief system, after they die, in which they realize what a waist of time their religion was. Pretty sure there last thought would be “Oh Fuuu….” lol
See how annoying that is when you end a sentence, which was intended to be insightful, with “lol”. lol
“I wonder who got the shit job of scouring the planet for the 15000 species of butterfly or the 8800 species of ant they eventually took on board Noah’s Ark. But at least we got that magical rainbow for all their trouble.” – Azura Skye lol
Another example of a lens in need of a good scrubbin. We “see” this God and “Christianity” from a false understanding with seemingly no interest in the liberating, life giving light of the truth. But it’s only our lives right, its okay if we think this way…forever? What a shame, when so much more is made available to us.
And so you will remain…in the proverbial dark until you long for light and truth with which the lens (of your heart) may then see truly. I know a good scrubber…
I know a good scrubber…
His messenger is Joseph Smith. He found these golden plates, and on them he inscribed the words of an angel.
Are my words meaningless to you? That’s how your words sound to me, John C.
That’s ok…one day my young friend…one day.
How does “the liberating, life giving light of the truth” fit with the idea that ALL nonbelievers will burn in Hell for all eternity? How life-giving is that?
John C – you have been hanging out with other Christians so much, you have lost touch with normalcy. Your words don’t attract non-believers to your faith. Instead, they repel because they make you sound crazy. It’s like trying to recruit people to Amway by saying, “A distributor can receive a 3% pass-up bonus if one of his personally sponsored distributors does over 15,000 CV that month. This bonus is $450.00 or 3% of 15,000. If the next level distributor also does over 15,000 CV in business, the first distributor will receive a 2% pass-up, or $300.00 (2% of 15,000). If a third downline distributor does over 15,000 CV, then the first distributor receives a 1% pass-up (or $150.00).” Do you see? You need to do as Paul did, and get out into the world, so you can learn to speak a language other than your religion’s insider jargon. Or, even better, just stay ONLY with your fellow cult members and stop trying to recruit at all…
You’re right!
Your eloquent argument touched my soul; I’m converted…. How can I accept the God AMWAY into my heart?
“Another example of a lens in need of a good scrubbin. We “see” this God and “Christianity” from a false understanding with seemingly no interest in the liberating…”
Huh?
Way to type several sentences that make absolutely no sense to those of us that require facts and evidence to be persuaded. This is why atheists never take your people seriously. The sorry part is, this is the only way that Christians can argue because the facts and evidence do not support your “theories”. You know, like how Christians call evolution a “theory”, same thing, only evolution has an incredible amount of evidence supporting it, which actually makes it more plausible and logical then a personal God.
“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.” – Christopher Hitchens
You forgot to reference chapter and verse when quoting your bible, the NCHV. :)
Or you could have simply entitled it…lies my god told me. Or did you not know that whomever or whatever we give ourselves to becomes our Master? Ironically, he even has “Christ” embedded in the name!
Have a good day, oh and glad to see you finally corrected the spelling in your name there John, now if you could only…C! lol.
lol, I spell checked everything but the title… figured you would catch the change. Well it is obvious you mean well, and the world needs more Christians like you. I too considered myself Christian at one point, even got a tattoo of a cross on my back. Don’t get me wrong, I still love the tattoo and especially what it represents; the ultimate unselfish sacrifice. But I too “opened my eyes” and no longer need a God figure as a crutch. To be honest the dissection and separation of religion in my life has made it more meaningful and enlightened. I live knowing that with each passing day it could be my last, so I better appreciate every experience and emotion that comes my way. This is the path of the atheist, no afterlife, only “what pleasure can I experience today” and “who’s life can I make better today”!
Props for not reacting with bigoted responses through uncontrolled emotions. I may not agree with you but I respect you. But tell me, do you believe that evolution is a farce?
Thanks John…or whatever your true name might be…I appreciate you, your kind words and your past experiences. If you ask around, the guys on the forum will tell you, that while they think I’m a real nutjob (and the may be right, ha) I’m actually easy going, even friendly, imagine that, ha.
No I do not believe in evolution per se but not because of “religion” or science so much, it just never “resonated” within me, in my inner man as truth and I have always followed that inner man above anything else, strange I know. I tend to believe what my heart (spirit) tells me as I have learned to trust the Indwelling one in me, and not my own reasonings which tend to want to exalt Self above Christ (just sharing my unorthodox perspective) seeing as it is joined to Christ (1 Cor 6:17).
I see things like this in my strange world…Religion is truly a terribly oppressive, dead, external, rule keeping “system” but Christ is a liberating, internal, indwelling, transformative, truthful, light giving, Life and religion is not what He came to bring anyway.
All the very, very best on your journey…its not over yet, none of our journeys are.
Cheers mate!
(not Australian, just like the saying)
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence.” – Bertrand Russell
“We don’t believe in a bearded man sitting on top of the clouds ha ha ha” is a straw man argument.
I feel bad for the guy in the picture. That hairdo is awful.
You think he’s a Christian? Or, are you just playing on a bad stereotype?
I’m just playing on mean stereotypes of what I imagine people like this must look like. :)
I have my generation’s gross fascination with mullets.
it’s all business in the front… and allllll paaaarrrrty in the back!!!
And I’m just playing with you for playing …. oh bother.
I’m poking fun, nothing more.
I used to have a mullet myself. I have really curly hair, so it was kind of a fro-mullet.
But it did not rival that one, to be sure!
aaaaaaahaaahahaaahaaahahahaaa!!! a frullet!!!!! LMAO!
Hey, now. John Adams rocked the frullet.
Is that anything like rocking the casbah?
Yes, but with fewer jet pilots.
I am not offended by Google’s logo, but I AM offended that Daniel used my picture without my consent. Don’t judge me by appearances; I actually scored a 34 on my ACT, and have a 149 IQ!
I just like the mullet, is that a crime!?
Dollars to donuts, he’d tell you that he was a member of Christinanity if you asked.
wish he would have just thrown his laptop out the window…
Daniel,
Such people do exist……….in such numbers that one would rightly be more than a bit concerned.
I once lived in a world where Teletubbies, Smurfs,Harry Potter, Rock Music, the logo on the NEW king James Bible, etc, etc, etc were all signs or works of the Devil. I pastored educated people who bought into these things……..
Bruce
What IS the logo on the New King James Bible? What’s bad about it? I mean, it’s obvious that all those other things are the work of Satan, the Evil One, but what’s up w/the bible?
About the NKJV
http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html
Bruce, now this is getting interesting. For years I had noticed that christians twisted and perverted into something “evil” ancient symbols that outside of christianity were associated with good, or sacred, meaning.
I noticed that the snake was only “evil” in christianity. Outside of xianity it was a symbol of good or sacred, in different portrayals: it represented the shedding of the old to become new, the snake with its tail in its mouth represented eternity, and it’s a part of Quetzalcoatl. I noticed that the number 13 was considered sacred or good; it was evil in the western (christianized) culture. Goddesses or powerful female deities were, of course, deus non grata after christianity grabbed the power.
All of this was casual observation, enough for me to see a pattern. Even a symbol of humanity being evolved and powerful and controlling its own destiny rather than being controlled by a religion had to be crushed. Of course, xians have their own stories claiming the same thing, such as the tower of Babel.
Now I see that the Möbius strip and the intertwined ring, which was apparently representing good such as human evolution or a “new age”, is, of course, evil to some christian nutters.
Unbelieveable! well, almost…if I saw the book, my first thought would be’ “Oh how nice, the trinity. And they’re intertwined. Like 3 and 1 at once. And never ending.”
There are trinities in many religions.
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Wow. Thanks for that link.
I frequently drive by a church that proudly advertises it is a “KING JAMES VERSION Church”. Accept NO imitations! I always thought that was even stupider than regular, garden variety Christianity. It makes me shudder to know I live near people that deluded and narrow in their thinking.
Bruce…
What’s your story?
the Smurfs? hadn’t heard that one.
It’s all explained right here.
I… what?
Like, really, what? My Little Pony is evil? MY LITTLE PONY?!
I also love how they say children are watching violence like never before. Never heard of the Spartans, did he. Then again, they didn’t watch violence, they participated in it too!
Credit cards were of Satan, until churches figured out they can take credit cards for offerings. Television was of Satan, until the churches realized they could use the airways to raise more money. Amish Christians still believe electricity is of Satan (the world), although they’ll gladly use your cell phone if you hold it to their ear. Rock music was of Satan, until the churches figured out they can recruit a new generation of donors with “Christian Rock.” Organized religion is VERY good at adjusting to the changes of the world in order to maintain their fleecing levels. Nightline showed a great example of that: http://lavrai.com/blogs/2009/05/18/nightline-to-air-segment-on-11-year-old-preacher-terry-durham/
I have heard that Catholics can eat meat on Fridays now, (fish aren’t animals?????!?), and had a Mormon boss who slurped down more Coca-Cola than most people I know. Anyone more up on these (seemingly, to me) oh-so-convenient changes?
Cognitive dissonance, ahoy!
The Mormon documents say that black people come from evil gods, and white people come from good gods. Black people start evil, but can overcome it. So, there were no blacks in Mormonism until recently. Then the church realized that black people are very committed to their faiths, so they pushed that idea back a bit, and started actively recruiting blacks. Now Mormonism is the largest growth area for black people in America – more than any other religion. Change is good, if it fills the pews and the offering accounts.
Conservative protestantism has gone through an enormous change in attitudes toward remarriage. The words attributed to Jesus on the subject were interpreted strictly in the mid-twentieth century by most fundies. Not so any more. Now divorce has been washed in the blood. There’s too many remarried people to require them to leave their spouses.
On a side note, my uncle was a pentecostal minister. His wife left him for a lesbian relationship (around 1965). My uncle was forced to resign his pastorate. In the 80′s the denomination got around their proscription against remarried leaders by allowing him to be an ‘interim’ pastor of a small congregation until his death about 12 years later.
My personal ALL-TIME Favorite bit of church lunacy is this: Because the Pope said so, Beavers are Fish.
That’s right. Beavers are fish, and therefore (double the weirdness) not Meat.
So, I guess they are vegetables, or minerals, or something.
Because The Pope Said so, and he is NEVER Wrong.
(No cunnilingus jokes necessary, BTW)
According to the link trj posted:
“Most people do not realize when they see someone or something flying through the air that this phenomenon is pure Satanism.”
So… airplanes, helicopters, hot air balloons, blimps, hang gliders, etc. are apparently satanic now?
Birds, people. Birds.
Birds are satanic. Hence, avian flu.
Except emus, ostritches, kiwis, and chickens. They have Repented of their flying ways and stick to the ground, where God wants ‘em.
I mean, if He had meant for them to fly, He would have given th… oh, yeah… dang!
Penguins are also righteous.
No, no. Penguins most unwholesomely wish to be as fish, and swim beneath the seas.
UNCLEAN!
If they live in the water, they might BE fish. Ask the Pope; he’ll tell you. He knows EVERYTHING.
As long as they aren’t shellfish. We all KNOW about shellfish. Abominations. Especially GAY Shellfish. They spend all their time on the sea floor, sucking conch.
Wait – I think I get it now. Blimps aren’t Satanic: Zeppelins are. Especially if they’re made of Led.
When I was a kid, we weren’t allowed to watch the Smurfs because Gargamel’s cat was named Azrael…who is a servant of the devil…which made Gargamel the Devil, etc. When we were older and allowed our kids to watch the Smurfs, my aunt had a fit and said we were damning our children to hell.
Luckily we see her only at the holidays.
I don’t understand that. Gargamel was the villain. Smurfs good, Satan bad, isn’t that aligned correctly with the Christian belief? I remember watching Davey and Goliath and not getting that it was religious at all (not knowing what religion or the bible was). He was just a kid with a talking dog and he learned right from wrong. I wonder if atheists wouldn’t let their kids watch it too. I don’t remember it well enough if the morality was too Jesusy.
Don’t forget the smurfs are living in a communist society, ruled by their great leader, Papa Smurf, red hat and all. Communism = Atheism = Satanism.
and that there is only one female smurf, so either she is having sex with all the tribe, or the male smurfs are having fun together -or both
Can you please answer my question?
@Kodie
If you’ve seen Davey and Goliath, you should watch Moral Orel. It’s a brilliant spoof of Christianity in general and D&G in particular.
And here I was thinking it was ’cause they were hippie commies.
Gay hippie commies; only one woman and all…
Nuh-uh. Asexual, remember?
A masterful dissertation on the topic. (NSFW!)
Don’t forget Lord of the Rings, rap music, Dungeons and Dragons, Power Rangers, VR Troopers, Pokemon….
I’m a movie soundtrack buff, and my favourite composer is Hanz Zimmer (Gladiator, Beverly HIlls Cop, The Lion King, Crimson Tide, etc). But I refused to listen to his DaVinci Code soundtrack, not wanting to ‘give the devil a foothold’., seeing that Satan was in charge of music in heaven and all that…
Oh, boy…
Why is he upset about a logo on a search engine that he doesn’t even use?
Same reason we are upset about a religion we don’t profess.
Google is screwing up his science education and personal freedoms?
Well, Google does allow people to access information….
Google celebrating a great scientific find? The horror!
you really ought to warn people before you post stoopid that nuclear. i think i had a stroke.
Nucular. I am pretty sure that most of that stupid was “New-Cue-Lerr”.
Satan is equated to a 47 million-year-old fossil? Maybe it was an evil monkey and not a snake in the Garden of Eden. Now it all makes sense.
Which means the fruit of knowledge was a banana. Ray Comfort was right after all!
TRJ…I saw a comment you posted the other day regarding the creation story(s) and wanted to follow up. Early Genesis is actually two stories of man’s original constitution and design both before and after the fall. This is not widely inderstood…all the best.
It’s two stories all right, apparently borrowed from several original myths and at least three different gods. As such, I don’t take it as an authority on reality – or on spiritual matters, come to that. I find it futile to discuss the theological ramifications of various interpretations of a work of fiction – which is not to say I don’t find the discussion interesting.
All the best (really).
Says who?
Daniel…
Next time, I would really appreciate it if you would ASK MY PERMISSION FIRST before using my picture and my truck on your Atheist website, I was having a bad mullet day.
I’ll let it slide this one time seeing as I’m supposed to forgive and all. If it happens again I’ll sick my coon hounds on ya…fair warnin.
John C
I am more concerned of the safety of google’s employees, seriously!
Ha, sorry John!
Good one John!
HEY, I already said that was my picture! Are you…. My.. Brother, John? I didn’t know I had a twin!
Quick, pinch yourself and I’ll see if I can feel it!
Thanks for the laugh today Daniel!
I love it. I’ve known so many people like this, and have a decent number following me on Twitter. I campaigned for Obama, and I got constantly attacked by the ignorant Christians who would follow any evil pro-lifer to hell, but wouldn’t follow a brother in Christ for being pro-choice. The hypocrisy and stupidity is so great, they can’t even read or hear reason or truth.
Unfortunately, until organized religion is eliminated, and the populace educated properly, there will always be fanatics in all religions.
“Organized religion” is not at all what Christ offers. You are confusing Christ (internal, liberating) with Religion (external, oppressive). The world will be a better place when “organized religion” goes away, more will be free from its cruel tyranny. When Christ rules and reigns from the throne of our surrendered hearts (spirits), when His nature is within, when we are truly “InChristed” again, then truth, love and liberty will be our new way of life, unity will be the result in all the human family.
Wow, John C. That doesn’t sound any less silly than the original post’s comments. I don’t think Christ is “internal, liberating,” not when the religion he supposedly promoted sends souls to hell to burn for eternity if they don’t accept his religion. Christianity is exclusive, elitist, and divisive. You must agree that you believe that YOU are right, and anyone who does not believe what you do is WRONG and going to hell, right? How does that unite people, unless you mean once the non-believers are ALL sent to Hell, then the believers can have unity.
Your understanding is darkened sir, you are in the proverbial dark about Christ and His true offer, message instead seeing only that dreaded, dead thing called “religion”. As long as you hold to what YOU think, then that will be your truth, even if its a lie. But when you long to know truth (Himself) He will liberate the deathly mindset and reveal the Light of His true offer and being to you, even within you.
The scariest thing ever is to believe a lie, to live a lie one’s whole life. Christ is the way, the truth and the life. He is not as religion depicts Him, He is Love, mercy, forgiveness, restoration, fellowship, light and one day…all in all.
No, living a lie is not scary. In fact, it’s usually comforting. Examining the reasons for why you live the lie is what is scary.
Yes, that “judging by appearances” we were warned about has bit us in the proverbial arce once again. Can’t trust our eyes alone, what our minds tell us, need to hear from Truth in the unseen realm….He knows, He always tells the truth and nothing but the truth…which He is.
“Can’t trust our eyes alone, what our minds tell us”
And this is why science and critical thinking are so powerful, because they have the capability of eliminating biases. This is why we cannot just blindly trust in the faiths of our peers and family.
TELE…you missed my point respectfully. I do not trust at all in the “faith of my peers and family” as you put it. That is not “Christianity” for God has no grandchildren only children. You can not be born (phyiscally) a Christian just because your parents were or went to church, etc. No, its inward, He is inward and the Father within is Who I follow, not doctrine, not a “faith”. I get it from the very Source and He lives within, is joined to my spirit (1 Cor 6:17).
All the best
One wonders, then, why He doesn’t take any Action to correct the misrepresentation of His Character.
All one must do is awaken from the Adamic dream (nightmare) we are living in, the false identities we assume. A man (or woman) will always behave like the person (or Person) he thinks he is, so this begs the question…who do we THINK we are, for this is who we are certain to be.
Receive (Christ within) and renounce (the false Self) and then…really live. Receive the true and new and renounce the false and old. Presto…NEW LIFE, His (uncreated) kind of eternal life not sunject to death and decay. Sounds like a fairy tale huh? How gullible can one be? ha. That’s the problem, the truth is so very, very good we simply…dont. But oh if we do, beautiful.
You keep presenting this message and I still say that it looks meaningless… you keep telling us to renounce our current selves and replace them… with what?
You do realize that changed behavior requires replacement behavior, don’t you?
You do realize that you keep telling us ourselves are not good enough and that your version of the Christ offer is some kind of dream– but what is that dream exactly, specifically, and in precise detail?
Well, I say foo. The only place you exist is in your mind– there is no other place (for example, the heart is not a thinking organ). You keep telling us our minds are fallen, but fallen from what?
You keep talking about a spirit realm that can only be REALIZED in the mind (the brain). John– if I scramble your brain, you’ll forget all about this higher plane you keep mentioning, and then what?
You have no proof of your claims– I mean you might as well tell us that a magic ice cream land with jujubee trees and Crunchberry bushes is calling to us via our rumbly tumblies and it would make more sense…
Seriously, you have nothing to navigate this world but your brain… there is NOTHING else!
“unseen realm” – “sounds like a fairy tale…the truth is so very, very good we simply…don’t” ? ?
John C – can you tell us how you know that this is the truth? And how you know of this unseen realm? Is it from the Bible that you know this? Is it from feelings and connections with what you believe is the truth? I just hope to get a better understanding of what you mean when you say these things.
You write of truths in mystical worlds, I just wanna know how you know so I can know. Please don’t I have to embrace Truth and then I will know Truth and my life will be transformed…that’s the same thing Mormons say…and many other belief systems…when they don’t have an answer.
“If you find Truth you feel something…you do X to find Truth…you say you did X yet you don’t feel anything…you must not have done X honestly.”
I beg you not to respond with a phrase similar to that…just be honest please…I’m seeking understanding.
L Jerome…
Thx for your comments. I do not write intentionally in a “mystical” way as it seems or on purpose. Its just that when these thoughts are arranged, they manifest in a unique pattern of sorts, I cant fully explain it. I appreciate that you are seeking understanding, and I believe you, will try to be as plain as possible and yet do it justice, the little light I have been privaleged to know.
First, truth is always liberating from within, that’s one way you come to know truth. Btw…truth is a Person. Christ said “I am the way, the truth and the life”. So really, in the same way you come to know someone is the same way you come to know the Truth, does that make any sense? And if truth dwells within you, you can know Him more and more. You follow your heart which always leads back to Father’s heart…your true home. Dont let “religion” strangle you with all its external rules, do’s and dont’s, etc. Continue to listen to the heart…which you are already doing, you just dont yet know its your heart your beginning to follow, to hear. The very desire you are experiencing now, that longing to know comes from that deep place in you.
Truth originates from the spirit, not the head (realm of reasoning) because it is of a heavenly (eternal) nature, origin. There are two “realms” or places of existance if you will. One is this natural, physical, lower fleshly realm that we can “see” and the other is the higher, true, spiritual or heavenly realm that we can not see. Christ is the intersection of the two. We’ve all heard the Lords prayer where He says…may it be done on earth as it is in heaven. This literally means He brings His heavenly existance (realm of truth) into our lower, physical and bodily existance here on earth. How? He does this by literally living within us (Colossians 1:27) and He is spirit (John 4:4). His heaven invades our earth. Eventually this truth permeates our entire (man is a tri-partate meaning three part) being having body, soul and spirit. Everything is a restoration to how things were before the fall, before the darkness overshadowed our understanding, our memory of Father, who He is and what He is like…and He is Love.
Now our natural, unrenewed minds do not comprehend the things of the higher, spiritual, heavenly realm since it cant “see” it, know it, feel it by the senses. The result is a dismissal, even a disdain/hatred for anything it cannot comprehend, see, etc. It deems it foolish, gullible, childlike. Jesus said that we would have to become like little children if we wanted to “see” with spiritual eyes this “kingdom of heaven” here on earth. Little children are trusting, loving, even gullible. Ironically, this “heavenly realm” is within us. Jesus began His ministry in an occupied land, Jerusalem (and so are we an occupied land of sorts) proclaiming that the “kingdom of heaven” was at hand, was here. The people said “where is this kingdom you speak of, we cant see it”? He replied…its not a visible kingdom, for the kingdom of heaven is…within you (Luke 17:21). This was as perplexing to them as it is to us but its still…truth.
So, its not an external thing this perception of the spirit, this light but an indwelling One who eventually becomes our very life as we yield more and more to Life Himself. The more we trust, the more we let go of what we think, what we thought we knew and die to our (old, already dead) selves and former identities (who we were before we knew Christ, before He indwellt us) the more we naturally transition into this wonderful, beautiful, yes even mystical at times spirit led life. He says that His children are led by His spirit (romans 8:14) because He is spirit, so it makes sense that His children would be spiritual offspring. Now we say like Paul…its no longer “I” that lives but He lives His (uncreated, eternal quality) life through me even as me (Galatians 2:20).
It all starts with a spiritual re-birth, a second, inward birth. Jesus said just as we have all been born of the flesh (natural birth) we must also be born a second time of the spirit kind. Now we are spiritual men and women and eternal beings. This occurs when we ask Christ in our spirit man, to be joined with this Kingly one in spirit and in truth. (1 Cor 6:17). We simply say yes Lord and He does exactly what He says, what your heart longs for and indwells you, takes up residence within. Its all an inward, unseen occurance but nonetheless very substantial since truth stems from the unseen, eternal realm of the spirit. Now we live by faith, not by sight (what our natural eyes and mind tells us).
So, in summary…you literally follow your heart, as you are doing now and let it, trust it to lead you back homeward to Father’s great heart. He will lead you onward, ever higher, deeper and the result is love, mercy, light, restoration, fellowship, truth, eternal life, peace, joy and righteousness (right standing) with God the Father…just as things were in the beginning.
Journey on Jerome, journey all the way…home.
Here we go again…the good ol’ ‘relationship, not religion’ line. Christianity has rules, like any other religion. If you break them, the ‘Holy Spirit’ convicts you.
I don’t remember where I read it, but every major religion has something like this, how it’s not like the others.
And there is only one God and Mary is His Mother, Daughter and rape victim.
On and on, on and on.
You don’t know anything about it actually, you only THINK you do sir and therein lies the root of man’s plight. It’s not about “rules” at all…but an inward, spirit-directed life devoid of the knowledge of good & evil (right & wrong) for in the spirit realm there is no such thing as good & evil, no potential for evil, only good for the Spirit is singular, not a duality like THINKING which we prize so highly yet its talons sink deeper still in the flesh of all mankind.
Dualism is false. There is no such thing as spirit, no separate “mind” and “body”. You only think you know otherwise.
Dualism is false.
Whoa, Spinoza, whooooaaa!
I tend to agree that it is false, but it is by no means *demonstrated conclusively* to be so.
Yes. I believe that is true, but I don’t know that it has been demonstrated conclusively. That was kind of part of my point.
Erm, believe it is true that dualism is false. That is not the most straightforward way to say that.
And I now realize you were riffing on John C’s “You don’t know but only THINK you do…” thing.
Sorry. ;)
It’s interesting that you hold my comments to a higher standard of honesty and precision than JC’s :) His comment contains at least four assertions of having unknowable knowledge, mine a paltry one assertion of having knowable-but-not-completely-known knowledge.
Thank you.
Its not whether or not you agree with me or not (I think we both know the answer to that, ha) but whether you understand the context of what I was endeavoring to communicate, that’s my concern.
Rodney…
I only claim to know the very things He told me we could know, and I believe Him. Foolish, gullible, childish me, the nerve of me believing God, as if He can be trusted, has our best interests at heart, hmmph. Next I’ll be talking as if He is my Father or something, silly me. *wink
The part that I find childish is not believing that what God tells you is true, but that God tells you anything at all.
But those things you mention, belief and communication (which stems from fellowship) are critical, core benefits of knowing Christ. God is Love. How can Love not communicate? Are you married? Could you ever imagine a husband and wife not communicating with one another? How much more so by the indwelling spirit?
I can’t imagine a life w/o these basic and yet wonderful benefits.
I can’t be absolutely sure, maybe everyone else is a complex figment of my imagination, but there is a lot of evidence that indicates that my wife exists.
Its like this Rodney, I dug out a couple old quotes that seem appropriate for our discussions by one of my fav writers, God lovers and, yes intellectuals! :)
WHERE A MAN does not know that his heart hungers for God, it is because the unfaithful self, a would-be monarch, has usurped the consciousness-the carnal man, almost the demon-man, is uppermost, not the Christ-man. If ever the true cry of the heart reaches that self, it calls it childish, and tries to trample it out. It does not know that a child crying to God is mightier than a warrior armed with steel. George Macdonald
THERE IS A CHILDHOOD into which we have to grow, just as there is a childhood which we must leave behind. One is a childishness from which but few of those who are counted wisest among men have freed themselves. The other is a child-likeness, which is the highest gain of humanity. George Macdonald (1824-1905)
George MacDonald made that up, or synthesized it from someone else who made it up.
Just because something sounds true doesn’t mean it is true. Just because it feels true doesn’t mean it is true. Just because it appears true doesn’t mean it is true.
Sound, look, and feel are frequently solid clues that something might be true and bears further investigation, but intuition is a poor final arbiter of truth.
It’s interesting that you hold my comments to a higher standard of honesty and precision than JC’s :) His comment contains at least four assertions of having unknowable knowledge, mine a paltry one assertion of having knowable-but-not-completely-known knowledge.
:-)
In a way, it has to do with my feeling that I have a better handle on how to talk about your claim with you than talk about his claims with him. This is not to say that he doesn’t have valuable things to say, but he’s coming from a place (a whole other metaphysical place) from where I am that there is not much for me to say.
On the other hand, you always seem game for intellectual discussion/debate, and tend not to take things personally. It may just be a me thing, but I’ve always taken statements like “Dualism is false.” to mean “Let’s talk about dualism!”
You mistake the spirit of truth for mere intuition? With all due respect Rodney, you are not terribly familiar with the true offer, the message of Christ and His many, many benefits of which He, Himself, His presence within is the greatest of all.
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Ps 8. Yea, what is man(kind)?
You think you talk to God, I think you talk to yourself.
The only thing dumber than organized religion is disorganized religion. I know a guy who stopped believing in jesus, only to announce that he is now a Druid and worships nature gods. We called him Druish, but I think we stole that joke from Spaceballs.
Eh, disagree. As a former catholic then wiccan to atheist I’d say disorganized religion is far better. At least pagans are encouraged to read, learn and look for truth anywhere it is.
I became pagan because many of my friends are and I joined a new class/group that started because my one friend was tired of fielding questions and decided to do it all at once.
I joined solely to understand my friends better, but ended up practicing. None of my pagan friends believes in a god with a face. I was of course the biggest doubter and a mostly atheistic pagan of the bunch. I left for the same reason I left chrisianity. I need proofs. There were no visible proofs. But I gave it a chance.
But if not for that experience, I would not have read so much more on religion and I became more politically active. Wiccans are very opressed by christians, like atheists, and I took a hand in issues. Like the 10 yr battle the VA just lost to accept the pentagram as an approved religious symbol for headstones and markers. It’s about rights. We all gain from that.
My husband and I still host Yule (we have a big house…LOL) and are invited to the bigger celebrations like Beltane. We and some other spouses there just don’t do ritual. And we now have a yule log tradition together with my sister’s family. It’s fun. And I’m still open to scientific proofs on ‘supernatural’ events, although they all are mostly a FAIL.
My particular interest is in the “ghost” realm, which I don’t believe are spitits, BTW. I think there’s some reasonable but yet unknown explanation for some of those events.
Awesome post, cypressgreen. You probably would like the “Dies the Fire” books – Google it.
I was raised Catholic, got into New Age (the whole energy-parting-clouds-some-day-I-can-levitate thing), became a Baptist (once-saved-always-saved-grace-of-God-not-works thing) for over 10 years, then faded into deism. I believe there is a god of some sort, a source, an intelligence, a meaning behind everything, but I have no scientific basis except probability and my own decision to believe. I don’t push it on anyone.
When I was a Christian, I used to say, “I’ll never fall.” My faith was total. My life was Christ. He was “in me,” as some in this thread would say. But I was wrong, and John C may find that HE too will fall if only he stops justifying inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible, and starts thinking rationally about it. If Adam and Eve were real, then their children screwed each other to breed humanity, and then their children screwed each other, and so on, for 100% incest. The Old Testament stories of God’s wrath, with him commanding his followers to kill entire towns, men women and children, and cut off their limbs, putting arms in one pile, legs in another, etc., just don’t jive with the “God of love” of the New Testament. Either God changed (which isn’t possible), he changed his mind (which isn’t possible), or the books are inconsistent. If there really is a Father, son and Holy Ghost, but all one being, then why do they talk to each other, and why would Jesus petition to the Father for things, if they are the same being and all-knowing and knowing the future? And if Jesus took on all of humanity’s sins, but humans must accept the “gift” to be saved, then why are nonbelievers going to Hell? Their sins are no longer on them. Is it just vengeance on God’s part, meanness because they don’t believe and worship him, like he’s some egotistical superstar that demands praise to help his low self esteem? And what of the billions of people who never even heard of Christ – who supposedly go to Hell for nonbelief in something they didn’t even know existed? How cold of God to punish them for something they had no opportunity to “fix?” I could go on for pages. Christianity can only be believed by ignorance, self-delusion, or sheer will, like a friend of mine once said, “I know you’re right, it doesn’t make sense, but I choose to believe anyway.”
I’m soooooo mad that I’m just about to throw my laptop out of the window… oh, what’s that, I can use BLINGO and win millions?? Maybe I’ll keep my laptop after all! ;-)
If only the rapture were real. The world would be so much better without these morons in it.
“Made me wonder what the logo would look like after we’re taken outta here!”
Loons like these have been waiting for the Rapture for the last 2000 years
You know, it’s really easy to call out the Christians and say you hope organized religion bites it. I personally am not religious at all, and of course I see the wrong that fanaticism does throughout the world. However, for some people, probably even the majority of religious persons, religion brings comfort and community that they don’t find elsewhere. Sometimes people just need the comfort of an idea that someone is looking out for them and their interests and that a higher power is bringing order to a world that is chaotic.
I don’t believe those things, but I also don’t think I have the right to tell them not to. As long as they’re not trying to take away my freedom to believe in evolution (which is the dangerous fanaticism), I don’t care if they think we descended from Aliens and need to have our Thetans cleared (Scientologists).
The moment we try to take from them what they’re trying to take from us, we’ve become exactly like them.
COEXISTUNITEStephagal … you sounds like an intelligent, thoughtful person … but (surprise) I disagree with you.
While I draw the line at legislation or force, I believe that we should do everything we can to promote rationalism and eradicate superstition from our culture. If you start to peel the onion on the damage they do to our country, you’ll start to see why. Here’s an excellent example:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/05/modern_day_isaacs.php
You don’t need superstition to find comfort and peace in life. I don’t care how unintelligent or uneducated a person is.
Anecdotal. Most religious beliefs and practices do not seem to be that intrusive or ultimately destructive. Stories like that are horrifying, but don’t really make a case for mostly harmless behavior.
People always chide me for caring about religion, and usually agree with Kodie that it is “mostly harmless”. However, it also seems apparent that reactionary religion today is “mostly everywhere” and skepticism and critical thinking are “mostly nowhere”.
When Department of Defense memos echo the words of a religious text, when our children are denied proper education in sex or science due to religious biases, when I am continually surrounded by Christian-themed billboards and advertising and “In God We Trust” plates, and when I cannot possibly win elective office because I do not adhere to the proper theological flavor, then I think we have a problem that is more than “mostly harmless”. I am fed up with religion being used as an excuse for everything, I’d love to see more critical thinking in the public life, and I can’t wait until that happens.
I’m not against more critical thinking, I’m just not sure making fun of retards on the internet is the best way to achieve it. And yeah, I’m lazy. If something’s not outraging me personally, I’m sure there will be a few people at least on the job. When I think of culture in general, American culture because that’s where I live, I see the tendency to become outraged over nonsense or the tendency to become outraged over something and not effecting the changes you want, and it’s not for lack of voices. I repeat, this goes for everybody and diverse topics.
I’ve come away with that, I’ll care about what matters to me, and I have the overall sense that people like you or someone else might make things better for me without me having to do much myself. Another way of saying this is – something else needs more of my personal attention right now, I don’t know what good it’ll do, and/or things seem fine where I live, etc. I’m glad there’s an internet where we can find out nearly anything and adjust our attentions to something, but overexposure is also dangerous. It overstates a case, it indoctrinates, people want to be “in,” or they want to get some things off their mind. I’m not changing your mind, I’m not changing anyone’s mind. This is mental masturbation. I saw a video someone linked about the banana and the pineapple this afternoon, so I was amused for about 10 minutes. The mocking continues to be fun.
If someone wants to say look how dangerous this insanity of god is, people letting their children die. Yeah, extreme people. I don’t take anecdotal evidence to clearly demonstrate the dangers of all religious behavior. Your social friction and dashed political goals are, would you say less extreme on an absolute scale or more extreme by their pervasion? This is why we keep talking. I don’t see anything in my way, but that doesn’t mean nothing is in your way. I do think it’s odd that we’re supposed to be all about protecting the poor innocent children of extremely crazy people with anecdotal evidence, and that is we should have the right to choose abortions on our own body, but reserve the right to tell crazy religious people what they can and cannot do about their children. Most of them take themselves and their children to the doctor.
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I’m sorry things are tough on an atheist where you are. I think in general whatever is wrong “with the world” needs to be adjusted over time and will be, the sensational news story is the outlier used to illustrate the problem, a dwade-like tactic.
I’m not trying to address tactics for change in this question. Do you think that end times theology is harmless in regards to environmental issues or the carrying out of the current American wars?
How do I feel about environmental issues or the current American wars? I’m sort of misanthropic, I don’t know if that ever came across real well. I think most of it is futility, I guess I’m glad people are worried about it if they want to be. I know that makes me seem like I don’t like trees or treehuggers or don’t feel bad about the lives and deaths of soldiers I don’t know or their families.
I’m not “rooting for” human extinction, but I don’t try to worry about it either. I probably won’t have children, and when the show is over for me, what use can I be then, what concern will it be for me then? It’s like saying the faithful are wasting their life praying and believing in wrong things and waiting for the afterlife… what do I have to do to make sure the wars stop and the environment gets clean, will that help me when I’m dead, will that realistically matter well after I’m dead? Will that help me when I’m alive? I think it’s great that people see they’re parasitic to the earth, and try to realize the whole organism of us is toxic to other organisms. I am not a scientist, I’m a person consuming garbage. I do what I can, and I think others are doing what they can. But you did ask me whether end times theology is harmless to issues you assumed I would think are important.
With or without Americans at war, there would still be war. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect religions to be eliminated. Urgh, yeah people are stupid, but what can you do. I’m not really sure “end times” has a lot to do with the environment. Some people just get sick to death of “green” this and “carbon footprint” that. I have had this conversation with my father. He not only doesn’t care about the environment, I believe he’s claimed to be wasting more than his share, jus’ cuz. I don’t exactly respect his position or think he’s all that smart. But he’s not about end-times. If there wasn’t religion to party all night about, ignorant people would still exist and still be extra-dopey about how much garbage they produce, how much gas they use (nobody cares about it when gas is cheap), what kind of light bulbs and dish detergent they buy. Again, what can you do? And ultimately, how much time will you waste being concerned, and still do as little as I do about it?
I apologize for this, another wall of text. Tried to break more paragraphs, couldn’t do.
“I’m not against more critical thinking, I’m just not sure making fun of retards on the internet is the best way to achieve it.”
Well put, sir. Well put. I second that emotion.
You remind me of some Christians I know. Make sure everyone thinks like I do… then we will save the world…
So good luck with that.
brgulker,
What’s wrong with that? I’m not trying to get anyone to believe what I believe by force. I’m not actively going out and trying to shove my opinions down other peoples’ throats. But if the subject arises, or someone asks me, I will give my opinion, and I happen to strongly believe in my opinions. Do you object to that?
I have firm beliefs. Of course they could change at any time — but I am passionate about discussing ideas. This is why I spend time on this blog. I like to hear what other people think, and if I can change someone’s mind about something, that is just an added plus. Why shouldn’t I have some passion if I feel that my beliefs have some merit to them?
I don’t object to people who are sincerely religious sharing their opinions passionately as long as everyone is respectful and engaged, and I hope I would receive the same opportunity to share my voice.
I don’t believe organized religion should be eliminated by force. I believe a concerted effort at educating the populace and teaching humans how to rationally think, as well as a visible effort to counter religion, would eliminate it naturally over the next 200 years or so.
Just because self-delusion might comfort some people, doesn’t mean it should be ignored or encouraged. Comfort should come from truth and reason. And it will, as religion dies away. There are many more atheists in America than ever before, and they’re doing just fine. Truth must prevail, even if it hurts for a while.
By the way, if the rapture happens, I call the preacher’s Mercedes!
It’s really easy and fun! to mock things people do, and that pretty much goes for anyone. That’s what it comes down to for me. I tried to think of my place here. Ha ha, the drooling. I can’t think of anything really effective about doing that, or any real negative consequence of them drooling. I don’t feel any moral obligation to force education to people who don’t want to know. Are they hurting me? No. Are they hurting each other? No. Some would argue their kids should be “protected” from their idiocy, but no. When it really gets to the point where their idiocy is having an effect on how things go, what my kids (I don’t even have any) learn in school… I guess I’m supposed to think larger and worry about other people’s kids in other communities where I don’t live who are having Creationism imposed on the curriculum, but no. It’s not my voting district. I’m not in politics or in law, where I need to draw precedents.
So a bunch of people don’t know about science. It’s not making science go away either literally or as a broad subject appealing to human inquisition, so why should I care what’s in their head? This is an academic subject for most of us at this level, it has no bearing. A lot of atheists would feel more comfortable if we became a clear majority. If religion went away, ignorance and mediocrity would still abound. I don’t see atheism as a “unifier.” Everything would still be the same only different. So, yeah, mocking is fun.
Atheism may not be a unifier, but religion is definitely a separator.
So you’re a “if it doesn’t affect me, I don’t care” American? That’s too bad.
I think people care too much, get in others business when it’s not necessary or wanted, and go about it in ineffectual ways most of the time, so yeah. If religious people would mind their own business… don’t we ask that of them, and try to get that from them? So, do I have to tell religious people to cut the nonsense? Only where their nonsense affects me, whatever I can do about it in my sphere of influence, whatever can be done to effect the changes, usually the voting and stuff, and even there, people don’t count as much as they like to think they do.
eliminate it naturally over the next 200 years or so.
That type of thinking will only add fuel to the fire of fervency that already exists.
I see that you are implying that religious people can’t think rationally? I have an MS in Physics and specialized in Einstein’s Field Equations. I have a very strong background in science and I still am an Orthodox Christian? You are telling me that I can’t think rationally? The point that I’m trying to bring is that I’m not the perfect example of being rational and believing in God, but the fact is that they’re a lot of people like that. Much smarter than you (in science), and still believe in God. For fucks sake, the guy who discovered the human genome started to believe in God after his accomplishment.
I have to agree with Stephagal, this beautiful quote introduces a very true and elegant message… “The moment we try to take from them what they’re trying to take from us, we’ve become exactly like them.” Almost sounds like a quote from a book. Very nicely done.
Incognito,
No one’s implying that you can’t think rationally. I have no idea what you believe or how you think or how you approach your beliefs.
Also, I know all about Francis Collins and his conversion, and I am curious: what aspect of that shows how he is a rational thinker in the area of religion?
Some people are good critical thinkers in all areas of their lives except for religion. I don’t blame them. Religion can be comforting and inspirational. I’m not saying that this applies to you, but it certainly seems to apply to a large number of people.
Lastly, I do agree with your quote, so there are some things we agree on.
The idea that believing in God is to think irrationally was said a lot by other commenters and is implied in a vast amount of comments… I found one 4-5 comments up:
“I believe a concerted effort at educating the populace and teaching humans how to rationally think” – there you go, a bunch more above.
“Also, I know all about Francis Collins and his conversion, and I am curious: what aspect of that shows how he is a rational thinker in the area of religion?”
A lot of people believe that being a good at science is to think rationally, it is partly true, so I’m just catering to their tastes.
You have to also realize that religion is a tradition for some. It is partly for me, who am I to break a tradition lasting 7 generations? If you are saying believing in religion to follow a tradition is “stupid”, people did a lot of things worse because of traditions. I met two people that joined the army and killed people because of a family tradition. So the situation is very complicated and required further thought, not quick and not thought-out non-sequiturs.
Witchcraft is a tradition for some, do you accept it? How about slavery – a tradition in many countries. Do you accept the Muslim tradition of terrorism? How about the tradition in some African nations to cut off the clitoris of females? At what point do you say “no more?” Your statement that tradition is part of your “faith” shows that rational thought is NOT. You made my argument for me. Christianity cannot be rationally believed. Period.
Of course, it’s possible you’re a Christian in name only, going to church but not really believing the central tenets of Christianity. If so, then my arguments don’t apply.
Wearing clothes in the summer months is a cultural tradition, too. Eating with forks or chopsticks. Much like pretty much everything else, tradition (and its ability to impel behavior) rides on a continuum. Rationality does come into play in adjudging the fruits of tradition, to decide whether a particular one is worth honoring. Traditions that have overall malignant consequences get militated against. Christianity in the modern age has, at best, sporadically negative consequences, and slightly more common (but not much more) positive consequences. It is not irrational for a person to participate in such a tradition if that person observes those positive consequences and attempts to replicate them for themselves, especially if they believe they can avoid the negative consequences that sometimes accompany the adoption.
My belief in God never hurt anyone. I never said that you don’t draw the line anywhere. The cases you presented are somewhat distorted. Christianity, in theory, is a positive thing, it brings people together. But the evil mindset of ambitious people distort the idea and present the “evil” Christianity everyone non-believer today knows.
I must apologize since I’m being hypocritical to some degree right now. I probably shouldn’t say Christianity is good in nature, since I am pushing my ideals on you. But I’ll leave it up there for a sake of a good discussion.
Christianity is a system– like other systems. It has the possibility of being positively or negatively applied. Christianity necessitates certain assumptions. For instance, there are metaphysical assumptions that come along with it. There are also moral assumptions.
You say you are a scientist, that means that in theory, you are an empiricist. Being an empiricist means remaining skeptical about claims until proof is presented. It is possible to be functionally empiricist and believe in God, too. However, what about other areas like morality? Do you believe in universal or culturally constructed morals? The former is what Christianity presupposes, while empiricists often line up with the latter. Have you thought about that?
LRA…I almost want to say to you what King Agrippa said to Paul after hearing him go on and on…you’re great learning has made you mad! lol
You get the point in jest…you are filled, overflowing with book (head) knowledge and scientific facts…but that kind of (head living) can NEVER satisfy you, your hearts true needs. Nothing wrong with head knowledge to a degree…but there comes a point when it becomes your…God???
I dunno…you have awesome passion, I wish I could get thru to you on some of the other ways that Life would have us to really…live! But…I appreciate you anyway you fellow (passionate) Texan you!
Then why am I so happy in school? Why is my dream job to be a professor? Why am I so excited about completing a PhD? I AM living, JC, that’s the point! I don’t need to die to myself (or however you call it), and I don’t need to replace myself with something else! I AM fulfilled in my pursuits– that’s why I keep doing them! I CAN’T imagine ever going back to something as unfulfilling as religion/spirituality/mysticism/Plato’s heaven/whatever you want to call it…
If there is a God, then I love that God with my MIND. If there is no God, then it’s all for me!!!
The former is what Christianity presupposes, while empiricists often line up with the latter.
Often, but not always. :)
Yes- I was thinking of you when I wrote that– you and your virtue ethics a la Aristotle… :)
Christianity is a system– like other systems. It has the possibility of being positively or negatively applied. Christianity necessitates certain assumptions. For instance, there are metaphysical assumptions that come along with it. There are also moral assumptions.
You say you are a scientist, that means that in theory, you are an empiricist. Being an empiricist means remaining skeptical about claims until proof is presented. It is possible to be functionally empiricist and believe in God, too. However, what about other areas like morality? Do you believe in universal or culturally constructed morals? The former is what Christianity presupposes, while empiricists often line up with the latter. Have you thought about that?
I can’t speak for all Christians, and furthermore, I think you’re probably right about a lot of Christians when it comes to systems, morality, and assumptions.
However, the only assumption that I try to make when it comes to ethics and morality as a Christian is:
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36″Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
When it comes to the rest of my ethics (such as the discussion about abortion), I am making an attempt to construct from here… not just make a whole bunch of assumptions along the way.
Furthermore, I agree with you in that most morality is culturally constructed.
Anyway, I’m only butting in because you made a general claim about Christians, and it doesn’t fit me very well. Just wanted to express that.
Well, most Christians take the 10 commandments as universal…
Incognito,
I’m not sure how these responses to which you’re referring are especially non-thoughtful?
I want people to critically evaluate all of their beliefs, no matter what they are. I do not selectively apply this capacity to religion alone, but to all of my ideas similarly.
I think you are getting the wrong impression of us. Yes, there are complicated reasons why people believe or disbelieve certain things. This provides all the more reason why we should take the time to critically evaluate these beliefs. Of course, you may come to the conclusion that your present belief is rational and mine isn’t. As long as we are being thoughtful and do not let our desires alone dictate the outcome, then I believe we have made considerable progress in thinking critically.
It is not what we believe or disbelieve, but how we get there, that is important.
I must apologize once again because I drew my conclusions based upon my real life experiences. I live in a liberal New England city and being r outwardly religious or just religious at all, is regarded as something negative. So some of my frustration is seeping into my comments.
My worry is that it is a deadlock. Someone else above said that “Christianity cannot be rationally believed. Period.” Well other believers think that evolution and the Big Band theory can not be rationally believed. So where are we? We are stuck, perhaps forever.
And I live in Texas– where independent female skeptic scientists aren’t always looked on favorably. Hence my aggravation with fundamentalists who are currently trying to derail science education in my state.
You are a physicist and you can’t see the difference between a scientific theory and a religious belief? Strange…
Its almost enough to justify asking whether the person is telling the truth.
“Well other believers think that evolution and the Big Bang theory cannot be believed rationally”
And they would be wrong. The evidence is there for these theories. I’d love to see correspondingly strong evidence for religious claims, though I understand that this is not usually the approach of religious traditions.
Do you think Google is disgusting and worship Satan for making their logo out of a fossil?
If so, I’d say that isn’t very rational.
However, I doubt you think that, so I’m not talking about you in this post. I’m talking specifically about the fundies at Rapture Ready who said these things.
Most of you either disagree with Google for flaunting atheism at you or agree with Google for flaunting rational thinking into the society. Thinking like that, both sides present unnecessary conflict. However, I do not see it as that. Google publishes new logos when it is someone’s birthday or other important news material is presented. I see it as Google notifying of some big news – not trying to attack believers, they are smarter than that.
What is atheist about fossils? I guess I’m missing that.
Seems like kind of a straw man. Has anyone made either claim, let alone “most”?
Did you even click the Google’s logo? It leads to articles that describe this as the missing link that could prove we descended from apes, contradicting Christian ideology.
Incognito,
Obviously you didn’t ask Francis Collins or Kenneth Miller if evolution contradicts Christian beliefs. They would sort of disagree, I suppose.
… and here’s where Christianity’s ideology actively interfer with everyone’s life.
Your belief in God doesn’t affect me. I couldn’t care less if you believe in assorted pixies. But when that crosses the line into science – or homosexual marriage – or abortion – because it contradicts its ideology or doesn’t – then it’s interfering with my life, everyone’s life, the lives of my non-existent children that I will never have.
Then, I am not cool with it. At all.
Am I missing something, Incognito? I thought you said you were a scientist. If that is true, then you know that evolution is an important theory that may or may not contradict Christian ideology. The scientist says, “Who cares?” The fundie says, “ATTACK!!!!!!”
I’m not buying that “Incognito” is a scientist
Important piece of information for you: Contradicting Christianity is not the same as atheism. If it was, then any given sect of Christianity would be atheists because they contradict the beliefs of some other sect.
I agree with Chuck Lasker. Those aren’t atheist fossils anymore than they are Libertarian fossils or Labour fossils. Complete non-sequitor.
How is a fossil atheistic? Is evolution or an old earth atheistic? Then I guess the gasoline in my car is atheistic, too, because it was made from oil that formed hundreds of millions of years ago?
It’s time we defended all of that Middle Eastern oil for the atheists, it must be our birthright!
/sarcasm
I’m not talking about a belief in God, I’m talking about organized religion. In fact, I’m a deist, I believe in a god, although I don’t believe he or she or it has communicated with us in any way, like a Bible or Koran. I think it’s possible to be rational and believe in God. I don’t believe it’s possible to be rational and believe that a couple thousand years ago a guy, who didn’t eat for 40 days but survived, who raised the dead and healed cripples, was killed on a cross for our “sins,” rose again as a zombie, visited a bunch of people and then flew to “Heaven,” where his father, who is also himself in some way along with a third entity holy ghost but still all one entity, welcomed him and now welcomes people who believe the exact right thing and the rest go to burn for eternity. I also don’t believe it’s rational to believe the Earth is 4 or 5 thousand years old, and that humans came from one male and female couple that ate an apple and we’re all products of incest from the children of Adam and Eve.
I spent over 10 years as a fanatical Baptist, almost became a preacher, but I had to continually ignore facts and reality, I had to think irrationally, accept contradictions and out and out silliness. When I could no longer do that, I left the church.
Chuck– you and I are very similar in that!!!!
God is not rational, can not be known, felt by the natural (reasoning aspects) mind, God is spirit (John 4:4). Can only be known by the realm of the spirit. When this is opened up to us…then we too can know.
Christ IN you is the mystery of the ages (Col 1:27).
If God cannot be known, how would you know?
You can’t say he can’t be known, then make statements about him (like he is “spirit,” whatever that is) — that means you think you know something about him, which means you think he can be known.
No, I said He cant be known by our reasoning (mental) faculties, but by the Spirit not that He can’t be known at all…
And how do you know that? And how do you “know” something through “the Spirit”?
If you find in yourself something (someOne) lacking then you believe, recieve and let that new Life within grow that starts out as small as a mustard seed into a giant tree (of righteousness) until it overshadows that dead, dry root (of head knowledge, right and wrong, good & evil) once and for all. And most importantly…you dont let the “Church”, the religious rule keepers knock you off track, instead you follow that still small, liberating voice within and trust Father to…complete that good work which He began in you for He can not lie.
Then, as you mature (which means less head thinking, more heart following) your confidence in His spirit within grows too and you KNOW Him and He knows you (who do men say that I am?) and now you are intertwined, ONE (Jn 17) and peace, joy and righteousness reigns and love is re-established as your dominant trait for Love is Who you are…again who you are at one with (he who is joined to the Lord is One spirit with Him, 1 Cor 6:17).
But we’ve got this religious, churchy mindset about Father, scripture, etc that only serves to hinder us, keep us out of kingdom life…that’s what has to go first if we are to truly know Him.
…here we go *again*.
There’s an aspect of our being that is not merely “mental” but deeper still. We are not so familiar with it like we are the mental aspect that we depend on so much for our daily living, driving, working, etc. But at one time we lived FROM this aspect almost entirely. So for now its cloaked in mystery, in solitude and silence…but every once in a while it bubbles up in love, in joy, in music, in poetry, etc. If its from the deepest (our spirit man) its more than a mere emotion which is mortal, human. Its often dismissed and ridiculed as being childlike, immature, not significant.
But, let it live, let it be joined to the One in His childlikeness and oh…what a beautiful thing it is that comes OUT of you…and that if a Life not your own, but given in love. So now we say like Paul…its no longer “I” that lives, but Christ lives in and thru me. Christ is not “religious”, He is life and life abundant. He longs to give His life to us, in fact already has but religion gets in the way, we settle for far less than His best. Its sad, breaks Love’s heart.
It doesn’t have to be…
How do you know that?
Because I followed the trail, the leading of the spirit and believed long and foolishly enough, like a young child told something by His Father until I…inherited the promises of faith as scripture says.
You died?
Yes, I died a long time ago…we all did in that our inherited, faulty humanity (adamic life) went to the cross with Christ and now His (uncreated) life is risen in us…if we would believe.
LOL’d @ Kodie.
squirmed a little and frowned @ John’s reply… AWKWARD!
I’m sorry, but this all sounds like a zombie movie.
“God is not rational”
That may explain a lot.
Incognito, you say that you are a scientists, and can think critically.
My first critical question is how would I know that you are indeed a scientist and no some religious person on a mission saying that he is a scientist too after I told him that I am a scientist.
Also what do you mean that you believe in God? Do you believe that the bible is perfect and that evolution is wrong? Are you a creationist? Are you someone that speaks in verses? Or are you just someone that feels a presence but realize that the bible is not that perfect and just a book written by humans. Are you somone that sees evolution and even science as tools used by God?
And yes SOME believers can think rationally, but how many are there that can do that compared with those that are just as dumb as hell that would even not recognize a fake Jezus from a real one.
Put a fake Jezus and a real Jezus in front of a Atheist and a creationists and I guarantee you that the Creationists will choose the fake one while the Atheists would choose the real one even though they wold be suprised that he really does exist.
And the reason is this, the creationist will just believe anything the fake Jezus will tell them, maybe convert water in wine, but the Atheist will ask better proof and test this Jezus a lot more and aks things that are not simpley created by an illusion. An Atheists would probably aks both Jezusses, to do something really cool. Like bring me on the Moon, let me see a Real T-Rex, let me orbit around the Sun very closely, show me dark matter, bring me to pluto, reverse time, show me the big bang…
Ah yes, Incognito a question I forgot.
What would make you become an Atheist? What would be proo for you that your God does not exist and that the bible is worng? What must happen for you that would be proof enough to stop any believe in your god?
In my case to start believing in a God, I should be able to test this God and Jezus, ans seeing the big bang is one of my favourite thing. But I also want to check if I am not hooked up in some Matrix! I am going to crosscheck it with many different resources.
Incognito, you say that you are a scientists, and can think critically.
Why is this blog so suspicious of religious people who post here?
I’ve only been posting for a brief time, and I’ve witnessed 2-3 times already, including comments directed at me personally.
What reason do you have to doubt the man in his claims for being a scientist? The only thing I can find is that he also claims to be religious… to me, it seems like you’re doing little more than prejudging based on a stereotypical understanding of what a religious person is — or in this case, what you seem to think a religious person cannot be, i.e., a scientist.
It’s not his claims about being religious. I could believe that you are a scientist, brgulker, because you are as rational as anyone here. But Incognito doesn’t think as one.
“who am I to break a tradition lasting 7 generations? If you are saying believing in religion to follow a tradition is “stupid”, people did a lot of things worse because of traditions”
Both the invocation at tradition and “there are a lot of things worse” are fallacies.
“For fucks sake, the guy who discovered the human genome started to believe in God after his accomplishment” So what?
“But the evil mindset of ambitious people distort the idea and present the “evil” Christianity everyone non-believer today knows”. There is not a true Scotchman…
“Well other believers think that evolution and the Big Band theory can not be rationally believed”
Here he is comparing two scientifical theories with a religious belief, does he understand what a scientific theory is? The difference between “thinking” and “believing”?
And finally… “It leads to articles that describe this as the missing link that could prove we descended from apes, contradicting Christian ideology”.
It would be the first scientist I know (appart from IDiots) that doesn’t acknowledge that the ST of evolution is the most plausible explanation of actual biodiversity.
There are lots of scientists out there that believe -in some way- in a god, some of them reconcile their ideas about a christian god with their religion without any problems (the bible is figurative). I could be wrong, but all those sentences from Incognito make me think that he is not a real scientist, he only wants to prove that you can be a scientist and believe in magic. You can. You also can be a scientists and be racist, mysogin or homofobic, because our mind is not “rational” in every aspect of our life.
Thanks for the honest reply, Francesc.
And I should have added that I do realize that it could be just me being a bit oversensitive due to my perspective.
But, FWIW, I have observed that people here tend to be suspicious of religious posters… But, I could be wrong.
“But, FWIW, I have observed that some people here tend to be suspicious of religious posters… But, I could be wrong.”
I clarified your statement for you in bold. Some people believe in god that I think is not inconsistent with their scientific careers/pursuits. I think some atheists think that you can’t be a true scientist if you still believe in imaginary stuff, that’s unscientific and seems inconsistent with an explicit drive to “perform” science, explore, experiment, research, reject things that don’t turn out to be true, and explain the reasons when they do turn out to be true. Turn god into the mix, then you have leftover explanations that aren’t scientific, and instead of examining this as a scientist would seem to want to do, just accept this as an explanation.
I’m not really concerned with the inconsistency. Believing in god because it happens to be a cultural tradition is a different story. Who am I to rewrite a false history, to explain in many ways to my family tree that they were ALL WRONG. I think it depends on what the status quo is. A person can believe in god without really questioning it, without really exploring inconsistencies with science, and bingo, you don’t have to break it to your family. If it’s not an intrusive god, I think it lives in a separate compartment from science. Like I’ve said, believers don’t upset me much until they’re just wrong about things that matter. Might depend on how many questions one is likely to ignore on the job or how much scrutiny is involved in one’s work that one will attribute to god.
In my opinion an “ethereal” God can’t be proved (true or false) by scientific methods. We can’t also have physical evidences about him, consequently I don’t believe in God. I may even think (sometimes, when I’m being more “radical”) that believing in a god is like believing in fairies (with historical differences) but I can understand that someone (be it a scientist or not) believes.
I’m pretty sure there are scientists who believe in ghosts or in telepathy too. What the hell, they are even some doctors who believe in homeopathy! What I don’t think is a scientific attitude is the answer goddidit. If we have a possible explanation -evolution?- why still believe in creation myth?
So, sumarizing, you can be a scientist and a believer, but you should difference when you are believing and when science is the answer
@brgulker
I’ve been to busy to post here much lately, but I used to a lot, and I have to say that I am automatically suspicious of the motives of religious people who post here. It is a website about those who have left religion and become atheist. While there are valid reasons a religious person might post here, there are also a whole lot of evangelists looking to save the heathen. Many, MANY of those people are perfectly willing to lie if it furthers their cause.
If I, as an open atheist, went looking for religious forums or blogs on which to post (I never do), then I would absolutely expect some suspicion regarding my motives for being there.
Not saying you or anyone else ‘has it coming’, but you have to kind of understand the reaction.
“What reason do you have to doubt the man in his claims for being a scientist?”
What reason do you have for thinking incognito is a man?
Could be a female. Or a robot. Probably not a robot, though, unless s/he is from the future….
Unscientific behavior.
Bear in mind that doubt is not the same as rejection. No one said he or she is definitely not a scientist, just that it’s doubtful. Incognito could allay these doubts in any one of a wide variety of ways.
Retraction. I confused two people who claimed to be scientists. I don’t see why Incognito’s claim is doubtful.
Incognito-
When you make a broad statement like this and don’t designate who you addressing, it sounds like the ‘you’ is plural and is intended for everyone in the thread. Or is that what you actually meant?
I can only assume this person is getting angry because he feels threatened by the fossil. He clearly doesn’t like/use Google, so them endorsing it couldn’t have anything to do with it. Therefore, the only answer left is he feels threatened.
This comment made me laugh:
“I never use liberal Google either.”
Yeah, that damn Google, constantly flaunting their liberal search results.
LOL! I was searching for WordPress templates in Google, and I’ll be damned if it didn’t return only liberal results.
Search for “liberal” and you get 62.2 million hits. Search for “patriot” and you get only 31.6 million hits. Clearly Google has a liberal bias.
Some say that reality has a liberal bias.
Yeah, liberals say that! (And Stephen Colbert, that magnificent patriot).
I’m sure glad that Stephen Colbert is saving us from all those dirty commie-socialist liberal elites.
“Shhh…did you hear that thunder?”
Good line.
You presume that liberals are not patriots. Shame on you. We’ve had enough of that kind of divisive rhetoric during the Bush era – and it’s time to end it. I know many liberals who are better patriots than the neoconservatives who thwart the Constitution to push their Christian agenda.
I know many liberals who are better patriots than the neoconservatives who thwart the Constitution to push their Christian agenda.
Neoconservative. I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Never mistake temporary allies (who otherwise despise each other) for one another. Neoconservatism was over-hyped as a driving philosophy of the past eight years, when in reality it only had a minor effect on foreign policy (due to the presence of Wolfowitz), and next-to-no impact on domestic affairs. Christianism was the flavor of the day for the GOP in most of the affairs of the nation.
Neoconservatives only cared superficially about religion (of which they were otherwise disdainful) because it gave a road-map for shared civil identity, following the arguments of Leo Strauss and his criticism of the Enlightenment deconstruction of society in favor of the individual. They even called it “the noble lie”; a tool for manipulating people to feel a common social bond in solidarity.
“In the late 1990s Irving Kristol and other writers in neoconservative magazines began touting anti-Darwinist views, in support of intelligent design. Since these neoconservatives were largely of secular backgrounds, a few commentators have speculated that this – along with support for religion generally – may have been a case of a “noble lie”, intended to protect public morality, or even tactical politics, to attract religious supporters.[25]”
Damn. Of the sheeple, for the sheeple, and by the sheeple…
I use “neoconservative” in the same way the right uses “liberal.” Neither word is very good, but both cause emotional responses. The current understanding of the term “neoconservative” is not the same as what you site. Today, neocon is a slang term for a right-wing fanatic, just as “liberal” is used to imply communist or socialist.
I understand that; that is precisely what I was objecting to, the use of a word with a well-defined meaning and history as a casual epithet and shibboleth. Liberals are rightfully annoyed when people elide the distinction between liberalism and socialism. One should not become what one hates; if the GOP and their chattering pets have no respect for the history or provenance of words and their meanings, it does not mean you should pay the same disrespect. Learn and use the actual meanings of the terms, and you will be better than your opponents.
“You presume that liberals are not patriots.”
That was kind of the joke.
For some reasons evolution is accepted worldwide but in Turkey, Afghanistan, Iran and US…
http://www.payvand.com/news/09/feb/1139.html
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/08/14/science/sciencespecial2/20050815_EVO_GRAPHIC.html
(Ok, we had a try at ID there in Italy but the proposal was killed within a month after pressure by the local Nobel prizes…)
Yep – you named the biggest theocracies in the world.
Turkey is not a theocracy. Neither, despite the occasional hyperventilating in some quarters, is the US.
Tell that to the minority religions who are persecuted in both countries. And tell that to George W. Bush who thought Iraq was a holy war. And tell that to Palestine, where they are oppressed by Israel with our support due to our Christian agenda of making sure there is a restored holy land so the rapture can hurry up and come. Tell it to the judges who put the 10 Commandments in their courtrooms, and to the Senate, who starts each session with a Christian prayer, and tell it to Barack Obama, who was skewered by the false rumor of being a Muslim and was forced to defend his Christianity or lose the election, etc. etc. etc. etc. And tell it to the neoconservatives who will say all day long that this is a “Christian nation” that was “founded by Christians” (falsely).
Theocracy. I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Come on, dude. Words mean things. One of the greater sins of the past administration, and politics generally, is the way the meanings of words get contorted to service an ideology or a position of convenience. Theocracy is the direct control of a civil government by a religious hierarchy. Both Turkey and the US were explicitly designed to be *not that*. The histories of both countries are very instructive on the issue. (See: Thomas Jefferson, Kemal Ataturk) This does not mean that people in that country do not have prevailing religious opinions, or that those opinions will not influence how they seek and judge their leaders. That is an entirely different complaint, which does not go by the name “theocracy”.
“I do not think that word means what you think it means.”
Inconceivable!
“Iocaine powder…I’d bet my life on it!”
“NEVER go up against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line!”
(a universal claim if I ever saw one!)
“Have you ever heard of Plato? Aristotle? Socrates? Morons.”
LRA…you still up/awake girl?
John C is lookin for a dirty athiest girl to do some late night chatting…?
I’m undoing my tie
o rly?
Yes, darling.
I hold your hand.
go on…
I kick off my shoes and put on some sensual jazz.
I wait for marriage…
…
this might take a while.
Japanther…
Not at all, those words stem from a dark, unrenewed mind. The question is…would you be made whole/well? Would you be renewed in the spirit of your mind?
Light up the dark
Your churches look pretty dark… /me gets his zippo out.
just kidding man. I was having a bit of fun. I’m sorry ;)
I was sure your link was going to link to the IMDB page for The Princess Bride. Oh well.
“Anybody Wanna Peanut?”
(for the record, I was, in fact, asleep by then…)
Also, Japanther I am not an atheist… I’m an agnostic.
POE.
I call POE. These posts look outrageously similar to that one pastor’s old pretend-atheist posts. Anybody remember that little shindig?
Oh yeah, a theist troll abusing the name of Nietzsche. How dreadfully unoriginal.
Was this in reply to the Nietzsche troll? If so, I delete his posts because… he was a troll. :)
I read The God Delusion. But I want to read something from the other point of view too. Anyone remember that book titled something like “Entrapsing Evolution”? Obviously, “entrapsing” is not a word, but I can’t remember the correct word. But it did being with an “e”.
What kind of book do you want to read?
There are many Christians who would argue that believing in evolution and Christianity is no crazier than believing in meteorology and Christianity. No one decries the atheist weather forecaster for not invoking a god in her explanations of the five-day forecast. Many Christians just see evolution as part of how the world works, as originated by their god, no different from the weather.
I’m still not a Christian, but if I were you, I would still be sure to research some of the perspectives of those who share your religious beliefs and also acknowledge evolution.
THANK you!
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Oh god… I laughed so hard. Thanks!
What is the point of that long-winded post in that link(page 2, posts 2&3) about being saved, on a Christian forum? lolwut
Oh my Flying Spaghetti Monster, I didn’t even notice it was the same exact post twice.
Not only do people like that exist but we allow them to vote and to breed!
We are probably doomed.
Nah, someone has to do the grunt work in a society…
We are definitely doomed, for this precise reason. Ever see Idiocracy with Luke Wilson? I think they were on to something there.
I died a little on the inside.
a response on the RR boards
” This thread caused a huge stir on another site, proclaimed non-believers. That in turn created curiosity. Which in turn brought a bunch of them here to see what was the big deal.
They then went back to their forum and laughed at us and made fun of us. But I betcha it also got some of them to thinking and their visitation to our site may very well have brought someone to the Lord. If out of all those, just one was saved, it was well worth the traffic issues it caused on this site”
I’d like to meet that one person from this site who may very well have come to the lord as a result of a bunch of comments made by people who depend on a 2000 year old book for education
Seems we saw that at the same time!
Ah yes, the “if only one was saved it was worth it” excuse for all manner of activity. What a great motivator to spread the word of the cult, that, if inactive, Christians have the blood of the damned on their hands. It, of course, implies that the more Christians proselatize, the more people will be saved. The other side they don’t think about is, that means God created a system that depends on flawed humans to “save” others, and souls are thusly damned to eternity in hell if Christians don’t do enough, not because it was their choice. Free will goes away, the idea that every soul has a chance to be saved goes away, and God becomes a ruthless bastard that condemns souls to eternal burning without having given them a chance for salvation. Christianity is a brutal religion, more brutal than Islam because in Christianity, the enemy’s suffering is eternal instead of just killing their mortal bodies. In Christianity, billions suffer for all eternity because some lazy Christians didn’t do their job. Even if it were true, I would not follow such a brutal, ruthless, violent, hateful, spiteful, egotistical god.
That’s not anywhere near “the truth” there Chuck. You must have had a very “religious” background my friend, cuz that’s what religion does, it feeds off…fear and you are rather fond of tossing it out quite liberally (forgive the pun) thinking you KNEW this God or His Truth, but I’m “afraid” not.
Oh yes – since I no longer believe, I therefore never did. Easy out, John C. But let’s look at John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” It says SHALL NOT PERISH, yet I believed, every bit as much as you do, John C. So either I am still going to Heaven, or Jesus lied.
The thing is, John C – you didn’t answer my assertion, you just did the “I feel bad for you” response. You are well trained for the general public, but outmatched in this forum of intelligent people. Tell me – was I wrong in the idea that souls will go to Hell if Christians don’t do enough? So far you have never actually answered any of my questions, so maybe try answering this one?
Yes, you are most definitely in error there my friend. We are human beings, not human doings. You have heard a performance oriented gospel which is no gospel at all.
You “believed” in that God, that gospel and see where it has led you…respectfully Chuck. Religion, denominations can not point the Way, only Christ can. What is this thing called Christianity at its core? Its a walk in the spirit, in fellowship with the Father and the Son for as many as are led by the spirit (God is spirit and therefore regenerated a spiritual offspring) are the children of God (Rom 8:14).
Respectfully, if you spent time in “organized religion” it took you further from God than it ever did to demonstrate His true Person, nature, character for you (obviously) held to rituals, rules, do’s and dont’s which are all external fabrications, the true liberating, transformative power being found in InChristed one’s walking in spiritual union and Oneness, as opposed to those attempting to adhere to various rule keeping agenda’s.
Remember…there is a reason that the “religious” leaders were always at odds with Christ, for He is not religious (in its cultural context), not external in demands, but an internal change of nature, His within is the spiritual “solution” He offers. This is the great restoration, the liberty and the truth, truth being the Person of Christ Himself which would rule and reign from the throne of our liberated hearts (spirit man) thus making our kingdoms (our inner man) His kingdom. Peace like a river…
No, my time as a Christian was in independent Baptist churches, not part of any “organized” system. My faith was well-studied as my first Pastor was a Bible scholar and professor, and we would site for hours at a time investigating the original Greek and Aramaic text for proper interpretations.
Tell me what needs to be believed in your mind to be a Christian. According to the Bible, it’s a one-time free gift, and the recipient then HAS eternal life, and does not need to continually re-earn it or live a certain way to maintain it, any more than if someone gave me a Corvette, I would have to continually be his friend in order to keep it. The Corvette would be mine. And there is nothing in the Bible to imply that someone, once saved, can “give back” that salvation. Any punishment for discontinuing belief that is described in the Bible is earthly punishment, not a rescinding of the gift already given.
Tell me, John C, what I did wrong in my 10 years in the faith, and why, if I was as sincere as anyone can be and loved the lord as much as anyone could, I would still be forsaken by God and sent to Hell. And tell me what must be done to be saved, in your mind. Bible quotes would be helpful.
And no – this won’t bring me back to Christianity. But it’s fun for me, having been on both sides, to see arguments. Eventually, I will write a book titled, “The Fall of a Christian, from a Fallen Christian,” and outline everything I think on the subject.
Chuck…
I just wrote a long (too long ha, 45 min) response to you, giving all my heart/effort to explain only to encounter a “server error” when I hit the submit button, argg. I didnt think to save it in Word as I went along so I lost it all.
I will try and regroup later and do justice to your most appropriate questions…thx.
Man I love this blog and all the discussion. I’ve been enjoying the NPR 5 part series on the science of spirituality…you all might like it too….but only if you’re a liberal…patriots shouldn’t bother! :)
They’re disgusted that their own God put a fossil in the earth? Or did Satan do that (’cause he always seems to have the upperhand when it comes to science)? Or is it the Russians they’re angry at? Is it just a broad hatred for science, out of spite for it systematically kicking their belief in the ass these last few hundred years?
Their line of thought’s confusing me here.
I think the problem is assuming there is a “line of thought”…
I don’t understand why people think that believing in evolution negates believing in God. Did anyone stop to consider that maybe God created evolution? The story of Adam and Eve is charming and all, but it was written by people over a thousand years ago who thought the world was flat and that it was okay to beat your wife if you thought she was asking for it. God is real, but He didn’t write the Bible – some men who thought they knew everything interpreted what THEY thought He meant.
Come on people, the Bible was meant to instill values in otherwise selfish beings, not to be read into too deeply and blindly followed. Open your eyes and you might find yourself in the 21st century…
Many moons ago I thought that myself. It’s a rather well worn path of cognitive dissonance. And I figured the bible and church heirarchy treated women badly since men wrote it. Thet Jesus valued his women followers but the bible writers ignored it. And that mistranslations and ancient slang were a problem. Until one day I realized it was all crap and I was just making excuses to keep believing. Seriously, you’d have to be a scholar who can read ancient Hebrew and Greek to find out what it really says. And even then you can’t be sure.
Come on people, the idea of God was meant to instill values in otherwise selfish beings, and explain things for which primitive man had no explanation, not to be read into too deeply and blindly followed. Open your eyes and you might find yourself in the 21st century…
I tried registering there just so I could comment and their site was never up long enough for me to complete the registration. :(
I just tried to register on their site and registration is now closed.
Screenshot
http://i44.tinypic.com/rwl4wk.png
something or somebody can always make the christians or others disgusted.something make somebody uneasy does not make the thing inherently flawed,people have the right to choose and to know. cheers to google……….
The Christians I have talked to accept the Bible as the “gospel truth.” Many of these same Christians have not sat down and read the Bible from Genesis to Revelations. They have only read some short Bible verses and listened to their preacher/priest/rabbi interpret what the book says. All of us raised in a family who believed in any religion have been exposed to religious indoctrination since we were children; this is religious brainwashing. We are asked to accept the religious doctrine with “faith.”
“Faith” is a mental crutch that allows one to accept the many impossible events and blatant lies in the Bible.I studied and researched the Bible for two years and wrote a book titled, The Gospel Truth: A Reality Check. My book calls attention, by chapter and verse, to the many events described that defy reality. You can check it out at:
http://www.eloquentbooks.com/TheGospelTruth-ARealityCheck.html
The new (right-with-God) Air Force is going to fly over your house and bomb you. Is your bomb shelter ready?
To play devil’s advocate here, maybe literally (smile), science has its faith, too. Not everything scientists believe is proven. Scientists must assume carbon-14 has decayed with a half-life of 5,700 years consistently throughout history, regardless of outside factors, like the sun of things we don’t know, in order to believe carbon dating results. This is with only a few decades of historical evidence to base the idea of half-lives being constant. The Hubble recently took a photo of a galaxy that is too large for our current physics, but scientists don’t throw out the disproven theories of physics, they continue to believe and assume the new facts have some explanation they don’t yet understand (like the “we can’t understand God” argument of Christians in explaining inconsistencies in the Bible). Even gravity is not understood, with Wikipedia explaining, “Modern physics describes gravitation using the general theory of relativity, in which gravitation is a consequence of the curvature of spacetime which governs the motion of inertial objects.” This doesn’t sound any more convincing than John C’s Christianity verbage. Nothing in science explains why we, of small mass, don’t fly off into space, yet scientists still walk around without strapping themselves to the Earth, having faith that, even without understanding, gravity exists. 90% of what anyone believes is perception, faith and the willingness to not question every single thing we believe so we are not frozen in contemplation our entire lives.
“Modern physics describes gravitation using the general theory of relativity, in which gravitation is a consequence of the curvature of spacetime which governs the motion of inertial objects.” – Makes perfect sense to me! If you understand what people mean by spacetime and 6 dimensional space… I read too much sci-fi.
Gravity is just a theory.
But if you don’t believe will you float?
No, in God’s infinite wisdom and mercy, the blessing of Intelligent Falling is granted to believers and non-believers alike.
I object to you not giving fair representation to Scott Adams theory that when you jump, you and the world both double in size, therefore returning your feet to the floor!
Flying is easy: you just fall, and forget to land.
So I resist to ask Storm,
Whether knowledge is such a loose weave,
Of a Morning,
When deciding whether to leave,
Her apartment by the front door,
Or the window on her second floor,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_htqDCP-s&feature=related
The difference is scientists and science advocates recognize that they aren’t dealing with absolute truth (like religion claims), but the best possible explanation for the observed data.
Is it faith if your just pretty sure about it?
Chuck, the difference is this: if you ask a scientist “What if the laws of physics are different in other galaxies?”, you’ll get an entirely different kind of answer than if you ask a theologician “What if Jesus really wasn’t God?”
Everything in science is subject to doubt, scrutiny, and revision. Nothing in religion is.
Very true, Digdug. In fact, Christians work hard at keeping anyone from asking “What if Jesus really wasn’t God?” Think about The Beatles and “Imagine there’s no Heaven,” how it was banned on most radio stations due to Christian protests. They don’t even want people to imagine it, because, of course, people will realize it’s true. Thinking is very very very bad to Christians.
Depends on the constitution of the mind itself, whether it be of a renewed, enlightened state or a darkened one. Thinking in the dark is dangerous and responsible for man(kinds) current plight. There is One who is pleased to renew our minds (as it was before the death) in the spirit of our minds that we might be found in the One mind of Christ…again.
Would we be made…whole? Most prefer the dark, but what of the Light?
John C wrote: “There is One who is pleased to renew our minds (as it was before the death) in the spirit of our minds that we might be found in the One mind of Christ…again.”
Whereas you think the One is Christ, John, I of course think the One is Satan. Jesus is but Number Two, always has been, IS a has been, and always will be second banana to the Devil.
That you or I would go to Hell for following Satan’s dictates is, of course, on of many lies foisted on believers by Jesus. The truth is that if wedo the Devil’s bidding, we are rewarded with all those early pleasures we so crave in life but can seldom have.
Why would Satan reward his followers with eternal damnation? How do you take care of your friends and family, John C, when they do what you want? You hurt them? Of course not. They will stop helping you. So the Devil isn’t going to hurt you for following His wishes. That would be counterproductive.
Follow Christ, and we will be rewarded, too, but not with earthly pleasures. Christ wants us to lead boring lives, living like sheep, and then “rewards” us by making us spend an eternity playing harps and wearing white robes and having to be nice to ex-spouses and mothers-in-laws whom we disliked so much while we were alive. There’s none of that nonsense in Hell, John, I assure you.
In Hell, it’s sex, drugs and rock and roll all the time, and it’s never, ever boring. It’s that way in Hell because deep down, that’s what we all want, especially you John.
yes, it is easyer to not pay attention to what you dont want to, just like the “male deafness syndrome” some people just dont want to listen,thy’ll hear but not listen.
p.s i got a conflict, hell is hot, yea? LIGHT IS HEAT. so to see the light is to see the truth, to see the end we have coming like a bug or bird IS our hell, to live with the clear knowlage of death is to live with HELL itself.
but i would ALLWAYS choose truth over soft, invisible EMPORORS CLOTHES!
for the truth can forge a perfect existance,not for us but our children.
DONT FORGET ,the devil is the inquisitor, the forbidden fruit was from the tree of knowlage.
so to be evil is to hunt out the truth, to be good is to be ignorant, READ BETWEEN THE LINES PEOPLE, we wonder why theists HATE us so much…! not because we are squashing their dreams of life after death (not logical right there! life=death=life?), but because they are taught that we are the SNAKE, the DEVIL, well if beelzebub is a TRUTH BRINGER, CALL ME A ANTICHRIST FFS!!!!!!!!! lmao!
Am I the only one who used his real name here? Is that bad of me? Do I have to worry about Christian fanatics coming after me? ;)
I don’t think your the only one (Reginald Selkirk, Steven Webb, etc.), and it’s cool. I think many people are hesitant to post under their real name at a site like this for fear that an employer/future employer will google them and find their atheist sympathies and hold it against them. Not an unreasonable, if slightly remote, fear.
I just prefer to use a pseudonym. It sounds better anyway.
My name actually starts with Joe B, and even my full name would return so many results I probably don’t have to worry.
Oddly I have a pseudonym I like and use, but don’t use it on anything political or religious because I write for a sports blog under it, and those topics are verboten there. I use part of my real name so my political and religious views aren’t connected to my pseudonym.
My name is my initials.
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You religious people are really something else. It’s a fossil, Solid hold it in your had fact.. You have fairy tails and threats. Always trying to force your views on others condeming those who don’t believe just as you do.. As if you were the Savior yourselves.. Pretty sure that is not what Jesus teaches.. Correct? Besides those who live in the factual world of Quantum Physics and Truths are not pagan or blasphemous.. They are educated and evolved learning to think for them selves and not take everything written so long ago as factual. The men who wrote the books of the bible.. and trust me it was written by men where so Out of touch with reality then that they believed the world flat, killed everyone who wouldn’t believe as they did and were the most ruthless people in history.. And still today after thousands of years people are still killing each other over their Gods.. We haven’t learned much have we. Hypocrites your God teaches love, forgiveness, studying your bible in private and keeping your relationship with God personal and private. Not Hate, ridicule, and persecution upon others.. Judgment is the job of the creator and eternity.. Besides how do you know your god is the right god.. Maybe you were just born in the wrong place on earth and into the wrong religion and beliefs.. It’s good to have faith Yes.. But have faith in one another and that we are all one entity and that the true God is in all of us.. I have no idea what god is, but I know what he is not. All loving and all powerful inside of all of us and everything everywhere all at once. What fools, like cavemen to think that we could ever do anything to sin against that kind of god. the things we do are insignificant and petty in the face of that kind of power, presence and love. Yet the real atrocities, the real Sins we commit are always against one another and so many times in his name. As though we are all knowing and everyone else needs our guiding hand. The real key to being close to God is being good to ourselves, each other and everything in our vast existence. Everything inside of you and outside of you all that exists are all made up of the same things down at the very smallest level of life. Clear down to the smallest part of the nucleus in the atoms that are the building blocks of the universe.. I’m just a man trying to spread knowledge, love, and Unity. When I see so many spreading falsehoods and preaching Hater and Fear..