A victim’s response to the Ryan Commission Report:
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*tears* I’m so sad. I understand the way that a church protects bad people. This video was too painful to watch all the way through.
The catholic church is bad people.
So true, so true.
And it’s not just the catholic church. The fundies here in the US are pretty bad too.
and the rest are deceived.
Wow, that brave, brave man. In absolute floods here.
What feels so sinister to me is that these are government ministers protecting the catholic church. Are they really so frightened of excommunication that they’ll protect child rapists? To paraphrase Frank Herbert: When religion and government ride in the same cart, look for people being crushed by their passing.
That is heartbreaking.
Christ’s “Church” is not an outward organization, but an inward people who have allowed Him to rule and reign from within, have surrendered to His headship and consequently manifest the various fruits of the spirit…for you shall know them by their fruits (the conduct, outcome of their lives).
Translation:
Christ’s “Church” is a feelingless monstrosity that crushes the lives of the innocent and protects its own heirarchy at all costs, all while pretending to draw authority from an entirely fictional “higher power”.
Oh, we do know them by their conduct and the outcome of their lives. They’re rapists, pedophiles, and child molesters. Boy am I glad that Christ was there to guide them to that. And people say atheism leads to evil…
It’s christians who say that.
Yea, that’s how you know their NOT InChristed, not surrended to Love Himself.
“Yea, that’s how you know their NOT InChristed, not surrended to Love Himself.”
I am sorry, but, I have nothing to do with your knowledge.
I am sorry John, but there is no way that this inward believe could be called a god or jezus or anything else if you see these evidences like this. These people are attacking the very core of what god is supposed to be and still he does nothing to zap these evil people that misuse children in his name.
Replace this inwared believe with any other god or spritual entity or even any fictional character and you get excactly the same result, a feeling that this fictional character is out there looking at you and taking care of you. This god is just a placebo.
Olaf, thanks. What I am saying, and have experienced and continue to is this: Christ is internal, and His nature within transforms us. That’s why scripture declares Christ IN us both a great mystery and a fact. The problem is, most dont have any idea of the true offer and message of Christ, they just see this external, dead thing called religion and assume thats what He offers but it couldnt be further from the truth.
All the best
If his nature transforms people, then his nature can be evaluated by how his followers behave. Since christians don’t behave any better than other people, this means your god is no better than a normal person.
Thanks for being such an incompetent Witness.
@John C – lol name one person that god has transformed! I’ve heard a lot of christian “testimonies” over many years as a christian, but the only ones where people appeared transformed were those who magically quite drinking, doing drugs, etc., when they “became a christian”. This was due to the support of the church. However, only WE can transform ourselves. What happened with these people is that they either returned to their addictions, or picked up other ones. Why? Because they never dealt with the underlying reasons behind their addictions. We transform ourselves when we learn, grow, face our fears, feel our feelings, challenge ourselves, love ourselves & others, etc. We are not magically transformed by becoming a christian. That is pure myth.
“Name one person that God has transformed”. Me.
So he appeared before you and changed you?
No, it was still you that made the change in your life. Your mind needed a fictitious personal trainer in order to do so, but it was still all you.
Whether or not Jesus has changed John C, myself, or anyone else is a subjective experience that we have had. The experience is real.
I think that’s defensible, even from a purely naturalistic perspective. I’ve read the teachings of Jesus and lived in community with other people who follow him. As a result, I am a changed person.
Slurms…seeing as its all an internalized activity and you are not in my “inwards” then its seems at least a bit arrogant, presumptious for you to make such a statement my uninformed friend.
Or perhaps you didnt read Daniel’s book review this morning? I suggest you do so…respectfully.
I agree that people can be influenced by those they associate with. If I associate with decent people, this is more likely to bring out my decent self! We are social creatures; as humans we are not physically strong like many other animals, but we are clever and know how to band together to survive. I don’t categorize this as “transformation”, however.
So the question is, does you categorizing it differently negate or diminish the experience that I and others have had?
You’re free to ‘categorize’ as you wish, I suppose, but I’m a changed person because of Jesus. To me, that fits the definition pretty well.
Arguing that something is useful is a completely different question than arguing whether it is true.
You guys who “know” jesus, answer me this question.
What is Jesus’ favorite song?
Favorite Color? Does he like spicy food? What are some funny things you did together? Does he snore?
If you cannot tell me what his favorite song is (go a head and ask him; I’ll wait!), then you do not know him, any more than I know Isaac Newton. I know about him from books, and from the marks his achievements left on the world, but that is it. I don’t know him, he’s dead.
Phrankygee, are you a married person?
If so, would you say that you have been changed in any way as a result of being married?
Or, have you ever read a really great author, someone like Dawkins for example, and been inspired or had your worldview changed as a result?
Or, have you ever heard a great speech and chosen a different course of action for a part or all of your life afterward?
Those are pretty common human experiences, I think, experiences that religious and a-religious people share for the most part. Obviously the answer to your rhetorical questions about whether or not we “know” Jesus is “No,” based on your criteria — but that doesn’t make the change that’s happened in our lives any less real.
(cue rodney with an LSD comment)
And frankly, I fail to understand why anyone would want to negate or diminish that change in us. It is, after all, my life and my experience.
Jesus has changed me and continues to change me. If you knew me personally as a friend, it would be undeniable to you — my life has taken some pretty crazy turns as a result. And, if you the premise behind my questions above, then I think it’s possible that I don’t need to appeal to metaphysics and the supernatural to explain how.
Further, it seems like we’re arguing about active and passive voice — who’s the agent of the change? Of course I am, at least in part. I make decisions and choices that result in action. My use of the passive voice doesn’t deny that, but it is intentional — because it indicates that the origin of those changes, the motivation for them isn’t me but rather someone else.
So, if you choose the active voice and that works for you and makes sense for you, then fine, by all means use it. I’m not trying to convince you to do otherwise. But, it works better the other way for me. Call it an ‘invisible personal trainer,’ if you wish, but hopefully that explanation at least makes my understanding of things more comprehensible.
(Phrankygee, are you a married person?)
–PhG–Yes, incredibly happily so, to a wonderful woman, for nearly 8 years. We met in Church, as college Freshmen, about 12 years ago.
(If so, would you say that you have been changed in any way as a result of being married?)
–PhG–Yes. I eat a lot more vegetables, and have sex more.
(Or, have you ever read a really great author[...]Or [...]heard a great speech and chosen a different course of action for a part or all of your life afterward?)
–PhG–Yep.
([...] Obviously the answer to your rhetorical questions about whether or not we “know” Jesus is “No,” based on your criteria — but that doesn’t make the change that’s happened in our lives any less real.)
–PhG…Well, that depends on what you claim changed. I have a feeling that your idea and JC’s are going to differ vastly on this. He thinks he has superpowers of discernment, and is immune to deception, because he was “changed”. Others believe they have supernatural protection from snakes, poison and enemies. Some shun medical treatment, or follow “prophecies” to the detriment of their current (and only) existence, as well as that of their children.
(And frankly, I fail to understand why anyone would want to negate or diminish that change in us. It is, after all, my life and my experience.)
–PhG…see above.
(Jesus has changed me and continues to change me. If you knew me personally as a friend, it would be undeniable to you — my life has taken some pretty crazy turns as a result. And, if you the premise behind my questions above, then I think it’s possible that I don’t need to appeal to metaphysics and the supernatural to explain how.)
–PhG…but Jesus didn’t. that’s my point. A book did, or a school did, or a community did, but not Jesus. You’ve never met him. He’s dead. (cue the “Jesus never existed” crowd, to correct me on this point.)
(Further, it seems like we’re arguing about active and passive voice — who’s the agent of the change? Of course I am, at least in part. I make decisions and choices that result in action. My use of the passive voice doesn’t deny that, but it is intentional — because it indicates that the origin of those changes, the motivation for them isn’t me but rather someone else.)
–PhG…So you changed you life *in honor of* Jesus? That’s fine, admirable even, but your language choice gives ‘cover’ to the type of folks featured regularly on this site, whom you invariably either disagree with or outright condemn. THEY are “following” Jesus in a much different way. You told Daniel you didn’t want to be “lumped in” with the crackpots, but you chose your own label, and it’s the same one they picked.
([...]Call it an ‘invisible personal trainer,’ if you wish, but hopefully that explanation at least makes my understanding of things more comprehensible.)
It does, and I thank you. You seem to be a logical, admirable, big-hearted person who has chosen to call himself a “Christian”, despite not actually believing in many (most?) Christian beliefs. More power to ya’!
@John C – didn’t you grow up in a christian home? Didn’t you learn about “the word” from your parents? What was it about you that needed to be transformed? Did you torture animals? Hate your neighbors? You don’t sound like you would have been such a bad guy before you were “transformed”.
@Janet…
No, I was not raised in a “Christian” home, did not attend church. No one here knows my story. Yes, Christ has and is transforming me. Gal 4:19
Still a troll from the beginnig.
Why doesn’t “Christ” come down and tell us all that the rapists are not His flock, instead of having his ‘glorious’ name, which is so ‘exalted’ smeared and tarnished by so many for so long? You would think that a God who ‘works all things to the glory of his grace’ would at least let us know…
But like I said, you would THINK
I teared up a bit after watching that video but then started laughing hysterically after reading John C’s comment.
Thanks John!
Welcome Michael….glad you learned something today and it made you so joyful!
John C would be strangled if he was there uttering those words.
I see a lot of fear, control, manipulation. It’s nothing more than a man made institution and thus, its a dead, lifeless organization. There’s an easy way to discern the true from the false. The true love deeply and sacrificially while at all times humble and sincere. They do not make themselves or their teachings the focus, but Christ alone is exalted, glorified.
OMFSM! I actually agree with some of what John C said! Catholics have long since stopped believing in God – they believe in the Catholic Church instead.
Yes, and we call that “religion” and that dreaded thing is what Jesus opposed here on earth. He had the harshest rebuke, the highest disdain for the “religious” leaders of the day, and they haven’t changed a bit in 2000 yrs!
Yet, christians still believe in their trinity god.
I’m not much of a “trinity” type…the Lord is One. One in nature, character. I dont personally view God in multiples.
What “type” are you?
He picks and chooses what he wants to believe, and tells anyone who disagrees that they misunderstand. I think they are called Ignortarians.
Isn’t it enough that John C has already strangled his own mind?
Clowns do that to some people.
How many much more proof do people need that either there is no God and these religious organisations is only designed to control people and have power.
Or that God does exist but is evil, pretending to be good but the closer you get to God the more evil you will become since you see it’s true nature.
Look at the evidence, those priests are almost in direct contact to God, they know the bible by hard and those supposed to be most trusted people by a loving God do such a bad things to others. How can any god have allow even the most corrupted immoral people as his servants! They should be zapped by a lightningbolt if there was a good god.
These scandals in Irland is only the top of the Iceberg. This widespread all aruond the world. Time to bring these to the surfaces.
Talking of the Holy Roman Catholic Church of Darth Ratzenberger, I’m minded to repeat a question originally posed by Bill Hicks: If the Pope is the right-hand of God, the Creator’s avatar upon the Earth – why id the pope mobile constructed from six inch thick bullet-proof plexi glass? I mean, if he truly does represent God, then the big man up stairs won’t let him come to any harm, right? The popemobile – faith in action!
That is the problem, God’s hands can be pierced even by a nail.
You call that god?
Yeb, that is god alright, like so many others.
The Pope’s belief in god is just like 50 cent’s
Thanks for explaining “gats” to all the non-rap-literate.
Now I gotta go chase that paper (earn money) riding on my dub-deuces (22-inch wheel rims)!
NNNNEEERRRDDDDSSSS!!!
I had commented that the video on the cancer patient being kicked in the stomach was the most painful to watch. This one was at least as painful.
From The Times, May 29:
Wow.
It’ll be interesting to hear if Bill Donohue can sink even lower in his defense of the Catholic Church when that report is published.
Aux armes, citoyens! Formez vous bataillons!
Secularization. NOW. No mercy for those who didn’t have back then.
And my congratulations to the man. Takes a lot of heart to come public like that and tell it.
There is no evil that rivals the evil of religion. There never has been. It reminds me of the situation in Canada where the Aboriginal people were hunted, murdered, given blankets with smallpox, and their land stolen through broken treaties. But the worst thing were the residential schools, which “raised” most of the aboriginal kids for over 100 years. I have personally spoken to many of these people who were TORTURED in these schools – kidnapped from their heathen families, so that they could be christianized. They were told their families were going to hell because they didn’t believe in the christian god. These children were worked like slaves, malnourished, not given medical care. They were terrified they would get sick because sick children “disappeared” and were never heard from again. They were beaten, sexually abused, locked in basements, you name it. It resulted in generations of Canadian Aboriginal people who are addicted, depressed, suicidal, physically sick, impoverished. They are so damaged it’s hard for them to even be functional. All because of the Anglican and Catholic nuns and priests who tortured them for Jesus’ sake. i guess it’s all worth it to save their souls, right? I have spent the last 15 years of my life advocating for Aboriginal people because I feel personally responsible that my religion did this to them. Institutionalized torture (to convert souls) has been the MO of christians since they existed. And now there are those who are afraid that the catholic church will fail because of all the bad press. How is that a bad thing, if they fail? Why should our tax dollars shore up institutions that have been used for these evil purposes far too long? And that doesn’t even go into the mysogeny, birth control issues, and racism of the church. I could diatribe forever about this, I’m so angry…..
I don’t have a defense for this. I wish I did. I wish I could say, “Well, you can’t judge all Christians by this…” I wish I could use the ancient “wheat and tares” distinction or “visible vs. invisiable” distinction. I relaly wish I do, because that might help me make sense of how this could happen.
But, this is a global institution we’re talking about here. This is the church… a church that engaged in a monstrosity, then collaborated with local government to cover it up. I’ve always been one to defend Catholics, especially to animated Protestants I know… but this makes it hard, if not impossible, to keep doing so.
At the risk of sounding insensitive, I’m glad to hear it. Any organisation allowing these atrocities to take place, for decade after decade, unwaveringly silencing criticism and covering up the evidence while claiming to be a bastion of divinely inspired morality, deserves only utter contempt. You cannot excuse such evil when it is consolidated into the clerical institution itself.
It’s clear to me that the Roman Catholic Church is morally bankrupt. If there is a just and loving God, this Church has demonstrated that it is not associated with it.
Glad to hear my comment? Or glad to hear the news story?
It’s clear to me that the Roman Catholic Church is morally bankrupt. If there is a just and loving God, this Church has demonstrated that it is not associated with it.
I don’t want to overreact, but that’s about how I’m feeling at the moment as well.
Glad to hear your comment. Not glad at all to hear the news story, although not surprised either.
Morally bankrupt – clearly. Financially bankrupt – hopefully soon.
TRJ said “Its clear to me that the Roman Catholic Church is morally bankrupt. If there is a just and loving God, this Church has demonstrated that it is not associated with it”.
Glad to see somebody is finally seeing clearly here. That’s not to say all who call themselves “Catholic” are like this. This is one reason I loathe labels for it is impossible, once a label is attached to someone not to detract from, pigeon hole one into a certain stereotype. We are so fond of labels, atheists, theists, black, white, democrat, republican, american, euro, etc, etc.
The sooner we lose these horrid, lying, self assumed “titles” the better off mankind will be. Then, we will see thru the illusion of our differences into the beauty of our similarities, the dividing walls will come down and then, maybe then we can get on with the business of loving our proverbial neighbor as ourselves.
Damn the labels, good riddance.
@John C – I do actually agree with you, that we shouldn’t let differences divide us. The problem is that christianity controls so much in public debate and policy. If people kept their beliefs to themselves, I don’t think atheists would have any issue with that. But when these beliefs become public policy, and atheists continue to be discriminated against, it becomes less an issue of DIVISION than a majority oppressing a minority. That’s when I feel I must speak up.
That was really hard to watch… Poor man.
0:10 – that unemotional face!
I believe that part of the problem is that religion has been associated with physical, or corporal “punishment” of children. The verse “spare the rod” in the bible was enough for this. And although the bible says “honor thy parents”, nowhere does it say “respect thy children”.
“God” could have resolved this little “abuse” problem by a few well-chosen, unambiguous words. Same thing with slavery, abuse of women, etc. But “he” chose not to make any mention of this at all in teh holy books. Leaving religious people to argue that it couldn’t be so bad to abuse children, if god didn’t even mention it! I believe the bible is as dangerous for what it does say, as for what it does not say.
To the christians on this site: I don’t know how you know it was “Jesus” that changed you. If you changed for the better, why not give yourself a little credit? Aren’t you the one who makes decisions about your life? I support whatever people need to help them grow as people. If believing in “god” or “jesus” works for you, then go for it. But don’t try to convince people who have seen through it to believe you, especially those who used to be christian themselves. There are many anecdotal stories about Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc who were transformed by Mohammed and so on. Do you believe their stories?
Another note to christians – you may find this youtube vid interesting – “How to convert an atheist”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rqUsC2KsiI
Janet, I didn’t watch the vid, sorry.
But I don’t have any interest in converting you, fwiw.
It could also be useful in any arguments you make on sites like this for your position as a christian apologetic. Most of the arguments I’ve seen are issues that atheists have long since analyzed and discarded.
Thanks… but I’m not really trying to be an apologetic either. I just enjoy a good debate, and most of the times, this is a pretty good place for that.
I suppose I do apologetics here at times, although I’m not really trying to…
It took a while to get around to it and load, but it was a good video that got better in the second half.
Ray Bradbury actually wrote a story about jesus going through his whole bit on every planet.
Now that would have been a useful bible: one that actually informed us about atomic physics and medicine and astronomy, and set us ahead as healthy, knowledgeable humans. Which it could have done if only it were true!
@blgulker – You didn’t address your comment to me, but I do have a response anyway! I have personally been very influenced by external forces; books, movies, conversations, speeches…and been inspired to make changes. But I do not claim that this is the ONLY WAY to change. I do not claim that if you do not believe as I do, you will burn in torment for eternity. Any belief that makes you a better person is obviously a good thing for you. I could believe in my own “invisible personal trainer”, he could be a pink elephant named Dewy. I could imagine Dewy cradling me in his arms when I am depressed, encouraging me when I am paralyzed, and encouraging me to become a better person. If I really believed in Dewy, it would no doubt change and inspire me. But it would not make Dewy real.
There is a respectable school of thought which argues that anything which has effects, exists. On the basis of the pragmatic efficacy of the belief in a certain intersubjective deity, one might argue that to those transformed by that belief, it is certainly a real entity insofar as it had real effects on them.
I’m not familiar with this “respectable school of thought”, but in my view that stretches the word “exists” beyond all meaning. By this definition, the aliens that talk to that crazy guy through his fillings are real too.
But I do not claim that this is the ONLY WAY to change. I do not claim that if you do not believe as I do, you will burn in torment for eternity.
I know you’re not accusing me of doing this — but I’ve never said that either… because I don’t believe that.
Oh, and I forgot to say that I do believe that Jesus did exist as a historical figure, and in previous comments, I’ve used examples of how one can be changed by a historical figure without having to appeal to the supernatural, metaphysical realm to do it.
For example, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was ‘changed’ by the example of Ghandi.
FWIW, I don’t think I need to appeal to the supernatural to support the claim that Jesus has changed my life anymore than a biographer of MLK would need to appeal to the supernatural to demonstrate that MLK was ‘changed’ by Ghandi.
I could say it a variety of ways. I am a different person because of Jesus. Jesus has changed my life. Jesus has transformed me. But not matter what voice I choose, active or passive, or what verbage I choose, the result is the same I am different as a result of having encountered the person of Jesus.
Frankly, I don’t understand why anyone feels compelled to say that such an experience is not ‘real.’
I do understand why you would object to those who make such an experience exclusive, however.
You have a very interesting, non-traditional christian belief system. You say you don’t need to believe in the supernatural to be changed or influenced by Jesus, and I agree totally – we are changed by temporal things all the time. You also say that you don’t believe christianity is exclusive – in other words, you don’t believe most of the people on this site will go to hell! In my experience, these views are highly unusual for a christian, and dare I say, rational to the point of not being christian at all! Do you believe that Jesus is god? Do you believe Jesus was divine? Do you believe you need to be “saved” to go to heaven? Do you believe there IS a heaven and a hell? Satan? I know I’m throwing questions like an automatic weapon, but I’m curious…
I’m going to have to agree with Janet here. Throughout history there hasn’t been anything as violent or depraved as someone thinking that they are doing God’s work. Take the crusades, for example. Eight total, and the end result was thousands died on both sides and neither side gained anything. Christian forces would, upon taking a city, massacre thousands by lining them up and riding down the line with sword outstretched, beheading men, women, and children because they were heathens. Eastern Christians were even killed. Not to mention the fast that one of the crusades was lead by Venetian merchants, and attacked Constantinople, a Christian city at the time. Another example would be the Spanish Inquisition. Thousands of Jews, Muslims, and pagans were killed needlessly in Spain, Portugal, and the New World. Now this. I have nothing but respect for religious people who have the ability to believe in such an abstract concept with more holes than swiss cheese, but organized religion, throughout history, is corrupt. The Catholic Church sold positions, for crying out loud!! I have nothing but contempt, disgust, and loathing for such a horrible institution, and I will be the first to say that I won’t be sorry when it is gone.