Rep. J Randy Forbes wants to insist we all embrace our “Judeo-Christian principles”:
Of course we were a Judeo-Christian nation. We persecuted Jews, Catholics, and unbelievers during Our Great Beginning, right? We slaughtered the Indians and took their land. We enslaved Africans to work our newfoundland. We kept women in the home and did everything we could to keep them from having equal rights. We murdered homosexuals, witches, and adulterers. Sounds like a Judeo-Christian heritage to me!
Thankfully, however, most of us have moved beyond all that.
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If the role of religion on the founding of our Nation is of interest, check out American Creation. The founders weren’t exactly diests or followers of orthodox Judeo-Christian principles. Jon Rowe describes them as theistic rationalists.
p.s. Forbes is certainly patronizing popular religious sentiments for personal gain.
He may also be ignorant of the facts … or he might just be lying. If he is lying to gain political favor by manipulating Christian sentiment, he is no friend of any citizen. If he is ignorant, he is not qualified to speak on the matter.
If he is ignorant, he is not qualified to speak on the matter.
I can’t think of any time that has ever stopped a member of Congress.
lol!
Congress? It wouldn’t stop me either.
Nor has it stopped me…
Sadly, possessing a keen intellect is not a prerequisite for holding office.
Did you see Bill Maher’s movie Religuous where he has, I believe, the governor of Arkansas saying “well you don’t need to pass an IQ test to be governor.”
Scary, especially when they talk about someone like Palin running for president in ’12. I can remember articles from the last election campaign where people said they wanted to vote for her (party) because she’s just like a regular mom, she’s one of the common folk. I wonder how many of those same people would elect to have their heart surgery performed by “someone I’d like to have a beer with” over someone qualified for the position.
We should be demanding that only the most educated, talented, qualified people in our entire country run for all offices. Unfortunatley most of our country is too stupid to even understand why this should be a requirement, let alone be qualified to make that decision.
Ah yes.
Here in my country, party doesn’t count as much as individual. Which is why there are so many popular singers, ministers and TV show hosts in Congress. Which is why we are one of the most corrupt countries in the world – we’ve a few personalities that have huge sway over their cities/states and we’ve the utterly clueless, sitting together, discussing the fate our country.
Lovely.
by the time a person gets “chosen” to run for president it wouldn’t matter anyways because all we will have to vote for is shit. The president nominees are selected by the real leaders of this country before they are ever placed for election, any one with since knows this. You cant just grow up and run for president, god only knows what would happen if you was allowed to do that.
I AGREE!!!!! Americans seem to be unique in their desire to vote for the least qualified, most bigoted, and least informed candidate. Apparently they were willing to make an exception for Obama, who will hopefully pull the US from the edge of the precipice (and I say this with great love for America – truthfully!! lol) I just watched a documentary about Schwarzeneggar’s big for governor of California. It was scary how closely he is tied to big biz, bit pharma, big car mfg, and big finance. Seems he is just another unqualified republican trying to grab more and more power. Other than bigotry and ignorance, this seems to be the thread linking all republican candidates.
The guy sounds pretty serious to me… at least it doesn’t sound like he’s lying. I’d like to think it’s ignorance and not deceit, but I don’t have any real way of knowing, I guess.
There’s a whole industry dedicated to “proving” the the founders really wanted a Christian state. It’s pseudo-scholarship, but it can sound convincing if you don’t look too close. There’s a lot of cherry picking of quotes.
Oddly, some of the hard-core Reconstructionists are more honest. Gary North published a book title Conspiracy in Philadelphia, where he argues that the founders were largely unitarians who engineered a secular state. Except for the conspiracy angle, I think he’s right. This is from the foreword:
where he argues that the founders were largely unitarians who engineered a secular state. Except for the conspiracy angle, I think he’s right.
LOL. Yeah, it’s hard to call it a conspiracy when *everyone* was in on it.
Well, I would hardly say *everyone* was in on it. There is something miraculous about the fact that a handful of colonial enlightenment thinkers could manage to create such a progressive founding document. Most of the colonies had official state religions; Connecticut kept its own until 1818. In 1780, Massachusetts abolished its state religion but instituted a law that every man must belong to a church. I doubt theistic rationalists constituted a majority at either continental congress. Even so, they were over-represented there. Nothing about the beliefs of Jefferson, Adams, or Franklin in any way represented the beliefs of most Americans.
It’s incredible to me that this handful of colonial enlightenment thinkers were able to not only craft such a progressive document, but to get it ratified by the orthodox members of the continental congress and the state legislatures. I can see how a Christian apologist would see something of a conspiracy in this. Ultimately, though, the orthodox Christians voted for it, and this North guy has no business posthumously rescinding those votes.
Being a Christian (nation) is nothing to brag about.
My thing is, given the historical record, claiming divine favoritism has never done any nation much good. In fact, the track record makes it seem more like the kiss of death.
I just want to know why he’s wasting time with this horse sh*t when we have way bigger problems that need to be solved.
He seems to forget that America was forged in the age of reason, and that we became a secular nation when we passed the bill of rights separating church and state.
I just want to know why he’s wasting time with this horse sh*t when we have way bigger problems that need to be solved.
You want this guy solving problems?! I count my lucky stars he’s sufficiently distracted by whether the US is a Christian nation that he can’t touch anything more real.
Well, I’m going to go ahead and assume he is in the Republican minority. Hence, he needs to sit down and shut up so that some work can actually get done.
Well, whaddayaknow???
http://forbes.house.gov/
R-Va.
And my point stands. Do you want this guy getting his grubby little hands on public policy, or would you rather he bloviate harmlessly about his personal beliefs?
(FWIW, I don’t think that GOP == evil, being somewhat conservative myself. I am personally embarrassed that the only thing approaching a conservative party in the US has been hijacked by theocratic loons, from which the most objectionable policy positions, like assaults on reproductive rights and discrimination against homosexuals, proceeds from.)
I think we are in agreement. My mom is conservative and she is beside herself at what the GOP has become. My point is why is this guy wasting time? Why does anybody in the house of representatives give a crap about this insignificant matter when we have so many other pressing problems?
I just don’t get it. But then again, politics has always confused me.
My point is why is this guy wasting time? Why does anybody in the house of representatives give a crap about this insignificant matter when we have so many other pressing problems?
They don’t. He’s just mouthing shibboleths for the base; whether he believes them is almost beside the point, seeing as how he’s a rep from southern Virginia. Besides, the real work of politics is not done with speeches in front of cameras; I doubt any number of congresscritters making any number of speeches on the floor would change the bill schedule one iota.
So where does the work get done? Isn’t he asking the house to vote on this? Why waste time voting on it? (I think you’re right that it’s a show for his constituents… but wouldn’t the constituents be more happy if he was actually talking about the pressing matters at hand? Maybe I’m giving his constituents too much credit?)
So where does the work get done?
Committees and lunch meetings.
Isn’t he asking the house to vote on this?
Yeah, but it’s a non-starter and he knows that. The floor speeches on CSPAN are literally nothing but puppet-theater.
but wouldn’t the constituents be more happy if he was actually talking about the pressing matters at hand? Maybe I’m giving his constituents too much credit?
Honestly, I’d be happy if they did less, most of the time. Most politicians, in my experience, are victims of the politician’s syllogism, a thought process that goes something like this:
1. We must do something!
2. This is something.
3. Therefore, we must do this.
LOL! Thanks for the education, my friend! I really did not know that CSPAN was puppet theater, but it makes sense.
Don’t get me wrong; CSPAN is great because it has good coverage of those all-important committee meetings I mentioned before. But ever since they started broadcasting floor debates, that’s when the grandstanding started again; you’ll notice if you watch that most of the time, the congresscritter is speaking to a mostly empty chamber. It’s all just for the cameras (or if you want to be more charitable, for getting their opinion on the record).
I’ll tell ya, I’ve been studying American politics for a long time, and most of it is still several degrees of nonsensical to me, so don’t feel bad if you think it doesn’t make sense. It isn’t you.
I would recommend, actually, if you want a fun crash course in the under-guts of American politics, rent/buy/torrent some The West Wing. They amazingly get it mostly right, mainly because they have some actual former presidential and congressional staff-people consult and even write some episodes.
Thanks for the recommendation– I’ll check it out!
You know, when I was a teenager, I wanted to be the ambassador to France. Really. No lie. I studied French for 10 years (minored in it in college), participated in Model UN and high school government… all to learn that people vote for popular kids with pretty speeches. I got disgusted with the sheer stupidity of it all. I guess not much has changed.
You know, when I was a teenager, I wanted to be the ambassador to France. Really. No lie. I studied French for 10 years (minored in it in college), participated in Model UN and high school government…
Très cool.
all to learn that people vote for popular kids with pretty speeches. I got disgusted with the sheer stupidity of it all. I guess not much has changed.
No doubt that is a factor, but I think there is ample reason to be not quite that cynical. Sometimes good people do get into office and manage, despite the prevailing wind, to do good things.
Yeah, I’m really hoping that Obama turns out to be one of those people…
I kinda liked his speech. If it were not for the “Christian” nation mind control I have a feeling we may not have won world war I and II. Amazing what pride in country and god can do for productivity in building killing machines. Anyone that salutes a flag to me is a mind controlled zombie. It’s a piece of cloth. Think about it.
Anyone that salutes a flag to me is a mind controlled zombie.
I understand your angle on viewing it as propaganda. However I think until you have served your county, you cannot understand the significance of the icon, or the meaning of the salute.
Everyone i know thats served comes out with the same attitude about it just being propaganda nonsense. I was even in the army for 2 years and it made me dislike my country more. Serving the forces does not give you a new respect for the country. if you say that i have my doughts you served. In fact it opens your eyes to the crap most people don’t get to see and the nonsence the army is put through, not for piece, but for the “leaders” on wantings. I know that serving does not give you respect, unless your just a dog doing what your told. A real fight for this country will never happen oversees, but in our whitehouse, and on our streets.
Good post, this is a prime example of why in the eight years we had fucktard Bush for president, nothing real ever got done. This is why our nation’s infrastructure has fallen apart. Our roads and highways are in disrepair, and our health care system is the worst in all of westernized civilization.
Yes, this is what happens, when we let Christian-fucktards like them be in control!.
A question I ask my Christian friends, if America is a Christian nation, founded on Christian principals, why did it take 1700 years since the beginning of the Christian faith, for Christians to finally get it right? Almost every nation in Europe was Christian; kings and clergy ruled them, just like to Jewish kingdoms of the Old Testament or Jesus’ future kingdom on earth. This is truly the Judo-Christian form of government.
It was the Dutch Calvinist who overthrew the first Dutch Republic and installed a king, because a monarchy was biblical.
That is a phenomenal point.
The only “Republic” of note in the Bible were the Romans. And what did they do to Jesus?
(And lest people get critical.. the Romans had a Republic Monarchy. Very odd, I know, but still.. the Senate was strong.)
There were a few hundred years after Rome had abolished the monarchy that it existed as a pure Republic.
By “pure”, I just mean all the major positions were elected — I don’t mean to imply that it was simple at all. I tried to figure out how the elections worked on Wikipedia and my brain almost exploded. You’ve been warned.
How does them preying mean we are based on a Christian nation? im sure because a few of them wanted to prey don’t mean we are. Thats like saying 40 people are starting a company… 10 of them want to have a moment of prayer before they sign the papers and them everyone saying that company was founded on christianity.
“We persecuted Jews, Catholics, and unbelievers during Our Great Beginning, right?”
Some did, but what kind persecution? Nothing in American history compares to the pogroms of Europe and, ceretainly not the Holocaust. Normal prejudice, is more like it. Not good, but nothing out of the ordinary. Same with Catholics, who have become the largest Christian group in the US.
“We slaughtered the Indians and took their land.”
True. But not my ancestors. They came on boats as chaep labor in mines, facotries and, mills. But we’ve done well.
“We enslaved Africans to work our newfoundland.”
True, but many opposed this and, succeeding generations abolished it. It was a major issue in a war that killed hundreds of thousands of Americans.
“We kept women in the home and did everything we could to keep them from having equal rights.”
A cheap simplification of the way things have been for most of human history. Those poor women who had to run a home while their husbands plowed fields, or slaved away in fiery, dark mills, or deep underground.
” We murdered homosexuals, witches, and adulterers.”
When has their been widespread, organized murder of homosexuals in American history? When homosexuals have been killed, it’s been individual murders, no different than any other premeditated crime.
Witches were killed in Puritan Massachusetts. Other than that anomaly, when has their been organized and, widespread murder of witches?
When have adulterers been persecuted like, say Indians, or Blacks were?
“Sounds like a Judeo-Christian heritage to me!”
It sound like the normal history of any people on earth and, you forgot everything else that might disprove your comments and, there is a ton of material that would do that.
There is no nation under god today according to their bible and Israel is no exception. This is not acknowledged even among their so few good, but their perversity continue.