Fred Phelps hate-mongering family/church created their own version of “We Are the World,” except they call it, “God Hates The World”:
These people are utterly disgusting. How can they sing that? What is wrong with them?
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C’mon, people, get those lighters in the air!
…
sorry, eighties flashback.
Now, if they’d just remake that Coke song… (I’d like to teach the world to sing…)
“I’d like to teach the world that God
Hates all the fags and Jews
I’m not one bit a hypocrite
Of what’s in the Good News.”
Something like that?
LOL!
it’s too late to change his mind
you’ve lived out your vain lives
gotta admit it’s sort of a catchy tune
Alpha fundies
Love your blog. First-time commenter, though. I am compelled to comment, though, because I’m not sure why you’d post this video here … is it to make a statement about the Westboro nutbags, about Christians, about religion in general? Just be careful that you’re not committing one of the “creationist tactics” you decried yesterday:
“Find an instance of a scientist behaving badly, and use it to make the claim that all scientists will do the same.”
As a non-religious follower of Jesus myself, I would strongly resent being lumped mindlessly with the Westboro folks. Not saying you’re doing that, but just wanted to throw in my two cents…
Thanks for your thoughts!
(btw, wassup, VJack!)
I don’t think I lumped in anyone with these folks, did I? My point is to show the utter disgustingness of Westboro fanatics, and anyone like them.
If you don’t “hate fags” and think “God hates the world” then I don’t think you have to worry about being lumped in together with them, except that you might have similar foundational beliefs, which isn’t something you can help. :)
I think it’s important to note that people like Pat Robertson & Phelps are better christians than the intellectual or liberal christians on this blog. They are actually following the bloody path of the bible and high on their values is taking joy in hatred, punishment, violence & death. If I may say so, most christians today discard most of the bible which makes me think that they are “cafeteria christians” (which all are to some extent), but they they pick and choose very sparingly what they will select from the bible menu. Repulsive things like this Phelps are theologically far more accurate.
I’ve said that before. Liberal Christians who look at fundies and literalists and say “But they’re not real Christians!” have got it arse-about-face. Fundamentalists of whatever strain who follow the letter of their “holy” books are the real believers in their doctrines – the liberal versions are just apologists who, for whatever reason (fear or weakness maybe) don’t take the next logical step from disregarding some of what their “holy” books say to disregarding all of what their “holy” books say.
Agreed.
Better Christian is a really relative way to put it. Just like any law, should it be divine or man-written, the Bible can be interpreted in at least 2 different ways.
1.You can take litteral meaning of the words, not ask yourself any questions outside of the text and apply it to an infinite number of situations. The problem is, a book like the Bible is not written in Cristal Clear sentences, the phrases are vague and open to interpretation. This is why you have these cafeteria-Christians (like you call them) and whatever WBC is. Who’s right? So far all I’ve seen is people taking the side of the guys that repeat loudly what they personally think of a certain issue. If you don’t care about gays loving each other and bla bla, you hate WBC, if you dislike gays but don’t care that much, you might disagree with the means used but the message works with your moral-map. If you hate them passionately
2. When the text is open to interpretation and that 2 dispositions could possibly be interpreted in 2 diametrically opposite ways (ex: god is love, god is forgiveness, but gaydom is not okay, kill the gays or say it’s a sin and forgive them?) you can also take into account the context (cultural context, history, moral values and social necessities) in which the book was written, the possible objectives (organizing life on earth, ensuring that women make babies, men don’t kill each other, families don’t ditch each others, etc.) that the writer had and update the damn thing not to match the new trend, but at least to take into account that we’re more educated than was people were when the Bible was written.
If you look at it from that perspective, the book was written when people believed thunder was god being angry (it’s static electricity in clouds shot down when the Voltage is high enough, right?) when theft by the needy was punished by stoning, raping a women and leaving her alone was just another way of satisfying the needs of the stronger, IF caught you only had to pay a fine, etc. The Bible is a relatively cheap and easy fix coming from a very smart person (should that person be god, Jesus, or just a pretty good lawyer) who knows that using peoples conscience works OK even when people aren’t being watched.. Also, encouraging people to make love (a man and a women) makes more babies and solidifying the father-mother-child triangle through marriage is something that helps build a healthy kid = more people = better people = a stronger nation = stronger economy = stronger armies and so on.
I believe the cafeteria christians you’re referring to are simply people that see most of their social necessities (security, justice, education, health, transport, defense, etc.) that used to be fulfilled by churched, the bible, the kings (appointed by god) fulfilled by the state or private companies, and the system works OK. The residual part of life that this book still applies to is purely spiritual (i.e: well-being) and optional to most people.
In this way, I disagree that the “good” christians are those that apply the book without thinking (WBC) or use it to back their point of view . Whenever you’re told to do something you have to wonder why that would be good. If it’s only because someone else said to do it, well hate to break it to you but you’re someone else’s slave, by property or stupidity. If you do something because someone else told you to do it, and it makes sense according to what can be called “the greater good” then you are truly a good person. Hating gays, screaming at the average american that he should die like their soldiers, the Japan deserves it, and that every natural disaster proves their Theory is not being a good christian, my insurance company is a better christian then WBC when it refers to an “act of god” and still pays to make my life better.
But then again, “the greater good” is what you’ll spend a life time searching and working for, some clues are in the Bible while the others are hidden somewhere in these 6 billion souls that each have a different take on life. It takes pure stupidity to be a group of less than 100 souls and tell the rest (we could even add all the authors who’ve wrote books over the last 2000 years) that they are evil.
In that way I disagree that they are good Christians because they follow the book.
ya, these people people are fucked up, these people are wrong, these people are uneducated, these people are disgusting, these people aren’t human. These people should be removed from society. These people just ended up in a reservation. These people just ended up dead after society ignored and persecuted them. These people were just executed as society watched.
I just spent a 3 hours at a meeting on aboriginal welfare and the amount of othering going on was horrendous. Guess which groups were doing the most of the othering. Who started off almost every sentence with “these people”? The evangelical christians and a government official, who I know from previous conversations is an atheist. We all need to stop looking down on others and recognize are common humanity. These people indeed.
Um, I think you may be overreacting. The context is pretty clear: the phrase “these people” refers to a small, self-defined group of people that chose to take part in the video. As they are currently informing us that we are all destined to burn eternally in the pits of hell for not hating gay people enough, I think ‘disgusting’ is an accurate, if rather mild, description.
I watched the first 20 seconds, and then thought “Hang on, what am I doing?”
I’ve got no want or need to listen to anything that the evil, bigotted, disgusting congregation of Westboro Baptist (i.e. the Phelps family) have to say or sing. They can’t sing any lower.
In fact, I’ll go one better: I wonder how many hardcore fundies have seen the videos of Fred Phelps and had serious second thoughts about their own attitude in an attempt to drift away from being associated with those kinds of people? Perhaps the WBC has unwittingly done some good? Doubt it, but it’s nice to think :)
*Sink, not sing!
“Perhaps the WBC has unwittingly done some good?”
Sometime I think that if Phelps didn’t exist, we’d be forced to invent him. Sometimes I think we did.
I once accused Annie Laurie Gaylor of the Freedom From Religion Foundation of having bio-engineered Fred Phelps in her basement. Or rather, I tried to, but the Public Radio station where she was being interviewed wouldn’t let me call in and ask her where she got the original genetic material.
yep. I put in about 20 seconds too. Not worth looking at. Move along, people…
Thanks for responding, Daniel. I didn’t think it was the case that you were “lumping,” I just wanted to make sure. Whatever your rationale for posting the video, it just gives the crazies more air time, which feeds into the vitriol they spew. They only way they’ll go away is if no one blogs about, pickets, or mentions them ever again.
I disagree. Shine a light on it. For one, it shifts the middle ground eventually.
It shifts the middle ground in the wrong direction. The Overton Window for belief-sets is shifted to the crazy end of the spectrum the more that crazy gets airtime.
In the short run maybe. Can you really say that the hard right has a winning strategy here?
I would like to say no, but I have learned from hard experience at being an optimist not to trust my instincts in such things.
I disagree. Secularism and gay rights have made huge strides while this bile continues to get over covered press. When I was a teenager the only gays who were somewhat out were the ones that were so effeminate that they couldn’t hide. Think about the civil rights movement in the 60′s also. Yes, this does have a tendency to harden the nut jobs but anyone with even a little sense is going to either not be moved or move away. Really, ‘God Hates The World’ is a message from the right that I want out there.
“Really, ‘God Hates The World’ is a message from the right that I want out there”.
Even if its not true?
The success of such movements depends I think more than anything on the gestalt of the culture, which in turn is composed of an amalgam of the everyday events in people’s lives and the idea memes floating around through the culture. Every once in a while, we reach a tipping point where (after, usually, a flash event or series of events) the gestalt is shifted fast in a certain direction.
My point is, in what direction it tips is entirely a function of what is in people’s heads when the shit hits the fan. And they can always juts as easily go the other way.
the only thing wrong with the song is they fail to realize,”GOD hates us all!” GOD does exist;however, to believe that the creator of EVERY universe would give a damn about a species who has done nothing but contaminate & destroy his perfect creation since almost day 1 is wishfull thinking at best.
june 24, 2010 in my city of Youngstown, Ohio an 80 year old woman was robbed & murdered coming out of mass…tell me GOD doesnt truly hate us all. black, white, yellow, brown, gay, straight…whatever! “HE HATES US ALL EQUALLY!”
He doesn’t exist.
custador says there is no God, I hope your not an evolution person…Anyway; do not make the mistake of thinking “He doesnt exist” simply because a few idiots make up ridiculous fairytales about him. There is a God, but people who claim to know his supreme will or believe he favors them over another are IDIOTS (he hates us all).
God hates us all equally? Good to know, because based on the bible I could have sworn he was a racist mysogenist. Ya know, if he actually existed. (Sort of like how it’s well documented how, uh, “porky” Santa Claus is…)
I love what you said about the gestalt. I think we are going through a paradigm shift now. I’m hoping it’s the “dawning of the age of aquarius” without revolution or armageddon. Sorry, christians. I know you are just ACHING for the madness, blood and death, but I’m really hoping we can avoid that.
@ believer: You hope I’m not an evolution person…. Why, exactly? Is it because you know damned well that I will de-he-he-he-STROY you in an argument of Creatardism versus Darwinian evolution? I don’t think I’m being big headed when I say that many regulars here have seen me do so before against better opposition than you can muster.
@Believer – “I hope you’re not an evolution person”. And I’m really hoping that you’re not a “gravity” person – because it my own personal belief and conviction that if I jump from my 10th floor window I will remain suspended in the air. And I hate it when people contradict me on my beliefs, just as you do. Them, with all their “evidence”, and “science”…what makes them think that crap is better than our personal KNOWLEDGE of what is true, based on our instinct or the voice of god? Did THEY hear the voice of god? I don’t THINK so.
Is there a fan club for Elemenope? If so, can I join? I’ll even pay a fee.
rAmen, sister, rAmen!
Steve Jr: “Whatever your rationale for posting the video, it just gives the crazies more air time, which feeds into the vitriol they spew.”
These people are going to spew hatred no matter what. Even if no one is listening.
I personally think it’s GREAT to give these people as much publicity as we can.
I don’t know ANYONE outside of their cult who is sympathetic to their message; it’s so extreme and hateful that even the most anti-gay evangelicals are turned off by it. I don’t think anyone is going to be converted to their view by seeing this or any other video they make, they’re just going to be disgusted.
Everyone needs to see and hear what these people think and believe, because it can teach important lessons:
-Believing in God doesn’t make one a Good Person.
-There is nothing too evil, heartless, or hateful for people to do if they honestly believe their God approves of it.
-There is no way to reason with people who are guided entirely by religious views.
These three concepts, all perfectly personified by the Phelps Cult, show exactly how dangerous religion has the potential to be, and why.
I think it’s good for both the religious and the non-religious to see stuff like this. If a homophobic Christian can see (and be repulsed by) the most extreme version of their opposition to homosexuality, it may cause them to reconsider their own views on the matter.
I think it’s sad and frightening and frustrating that people like this exist, and are allowed to abuse children by brainwashing them with these horrible beliefs. But if they HAVE to exist, I think we should do what we can to learn from them, rather than sweep them under the rug.
Christians are always (musically) ten years behind the culture….but these guys are ten years behind the guys that are ten years behind.
COMING IN 2015: W.B.C.’s first rap video.
I thought they’d die out as a church when Fred Phelps died/was shot in the face, but having seen how fanatic his eldest daughter is I no longer think it’s likely. So if anybody wants to shoot them both in the face? I kid. No, actually, I don’t. Throwing a satchel-bomb into that church on a Sunday morning would be a kindness to humanity.
Fred Phelps was shot..? I didn’t know that.
Impossible. The whole world would stink with the stench of his corpse.
Sorry, couldn’t resist a classical allusion.
He wasn’t shot. I’m just assuming that he will be one day.
Speaking of which… I recall a question I recently read on an Atheist blog: What is a militant atheist?
My answer: Someone who, in cold blod and without hesitation, is able and willing to shoot the WBC guys in their ugly, love-of-god pretending faces…
*Waves* Cooooo-eeeeeee! That’d be me then!
If you knew the Father for yourself, you would also know who belonged to Him.
cue John C with some off the cuff remark
“If you knew the Father for yourself, you would also know who belonged to Him”
what does that even mean.
John C, Inane Tripe OCD.
It was always easier to spot the non-belongers when I was a belonger than the fake belongers. But maybe that was just me.
My father is a retired pastor, and I don’t belong to him. I don’t have any other father, and I don’t think most of the others on this thread do either. (For starters, the idea of a heavenly “father” is silly and mysogenistic – if anything, the creator of life should be female – however the point is moot since NOTHING-NESS does not have a gender).
to cynic: comment from John C sound like typical christian talk (not accusing) which consists of cliches and vague speech that in no way intelligently conveys what or why they believe or feel as they do.
I do know my father, personally, but he doesn’t actually own anybody. Whatcha mean?
Fred Phelps went on a hunting trip with Dick Cheney?
Christian rap? It needs a short snappy title, like Xrap or Jrap or something… ;-)
Baby Got Book
Urgh…
Aw! C’mon, I thought that vid was pretty funny! I disagree with it, but it was still funny.
Crap, its snappy catchy and descriptive.
I agree about music. When i was a christian, I hated christian rock. It destroyed gospel music and rock in one fell swoop. Thank g*d I don’t EVER listen to gospel music anymore. Whew. (The exceptions to that are classical and some “catholic” music like Ave Maria, which is beautiful).
I remember when they came to Pittsburgh. Shortly after Fred Rogers died the Pittsburgh community organized a memorial service for him. Since this ordained minister had never used his public platform Mr. Rogers Neighborhood to condemn gays they decided that he was now burning in hell.
Oy… vey. Ugh. ARRRRGH!
I’ve seen these jerks slam a lot of things, but condemning Mr. Rogers is crossing the line. That was the single best children’s show ever. They die now… or I just sit around and stew about it.
On the upside, I now have a new role model. <3 As an atheist minister, I shall strive to be at least half as awesome as that guy.
It doesnt matter what we “call” ourselves, only that we express the true nature, character of the Father and these people do not know Him, for He is Love. If He were reigning from the throne of their hearts, the result would be an overwhelming love for all man(kind) but as it is, they pervert the Father’s true nature and project another spirit not of God declaring such falsehoods like “its too late” which is simply a misrepresentation, a perversion of God’s true character.
Hater’s are everywhere. its the Lovers who really know Him.
I’m willing to bet they adhere to your scripture more than you do.
No, they adhere to OT law, which is God seen thru the lens of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. They entirely miss Christ, grace & truth personified.
I’m with John C — let’s get rid of the OT! God didn’t write it, it’s just a bunch of bullshit rules and stories.
Right John?
:)
TrueChristians already ignore the OT.
…and most of the new…
Christ (the true expression of God’s nature) is hidden in the OT, but He is there. The NT communicates a “new and better covenent” for sure. Man’s journey is an ever increasing revelation of the Father but really going “back” to the garden man having lost his paternal origins, cant remember since sin (death) killed man’s spiritual sensitivities. We go from OT to NT to the Reformation period (salvation by grace thru faith, not of self effort, works, etc). It keeps getting better, more beautiful until the true is wholly known by all. Then we will really “see”.
What’s the next revelation? The kingdom here and now? God is love?? Hmm….
I agree (in a less sarcastic way) with Nullifidian. @John C.: you and ole freddy there are reading the same magic book; how can the two of you come up with such vastly different conclusions. You talk to atheists daily, while WBC tells us we are all going to hell. You defend and protect your beliefs with pleasant discussion while WBC holds up signs telling the general public that god hates them. But y’all are reading the same book. THE SAME BOOK!!
Tilly, please see my response to Nulli below. We dont go by a “magic book”, Christianity at its core is not a belief system, but a holy occupation. Christ IN you being the mystery of the ages (Col 1:27). All the best.
Christ’s trying to rape me?!
Yea, so who’s got it right Tilly? Is He love or hate? I know, I know you say He…isnt at all but I tell you He is and He is…Love.
“GOD” wrote neither the old or new testament. Gods do not write, people do…& people lie.
Oh, really? How interesting. Can you show me how your particular interpretation of your magic book is more correct than theirs?
Which representation of God (love or hatred) captures your heart the most? Does a merciless, brutal dictator cause you to long to know Him, to serve Him? Of course not, my Father is Love.
We dont go by a “magic book”, but by an Indwelling One. This is how we “know” what He is really like. Wisdom is justifieid by her children (offspring) and you shall know them (His people) by their fruits. Since God is Love (1 Jn 4:16) then such a root system would reproduce of its own kind.
Well… to answer your first question, neither capture my heart. But you bring up an interesting point. If in your book god is pictured as both a loving father and a “merciless, brutal dictator,” what is the deciding factor on which one you choose to serve? Are you humbled by god’s overwhelming grace and capacity for love and forgive or do you cower in fear at “his” wrath and threats of hell? And even more, how can you serve one and ignore the other? WBC seems to only acknowledge the wrathful god of the OT but you (and most christians alike) put that god behind you and revere the god of the NT. How, if your god is a brutal dictator and full of grace, do you decide which one to serve? Is it just the one that appeals to you the most?
Tilly, thanks for your feedback. Truth is singular, above the line and not a duality. From our vantage point, God sometimes “appears” to be both, but Jesus cautioned us against “judging by appearances”, because our natural sight is jaded, is lacking. I only know the true nature of Gof because I commited to the (whole) journey and was foolish and childish enough (like Jesus advised) to simply trust and believe God, to take Him at His word. This results in knowing truth and truth is always liberating (the truth shall make you free) for where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2 Corinthians 3:17). God is in the liberating (truth) business and Lord knows we need it! lol. All the best.
Anyone who knows the true nature of Gof is way ahead of the game.
It’s self-contradicting to say there is something to say we dont go by a “magic book”, but by an indwelling one, and then quote ad nauseam from a cobbled-together written one – in the same post, and many others.
The textual content, the lettering itself doesnt tell us everything, but rather the illuminating, indwelling Holy Spirit.
Because John C gets to have it both ways and believe two contradictory ideas at the same time, or at least claim to as long as he believes it will earn him brownie points with his god by Witnessing.
“….they adhere to OT law, which is God seen thru the lens of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. They entirely miss Christ, grace & truth personified.”
These misguided idiots(and others) derive their beliefs from the same *selective* reading of “scripture” as you, and all “Christians” do—”selective” being a key word. At the end of the day, neither you, nor they, can offer any type of objective confirmation that they have interpreted “God’s Word” correctly—it’s your “word” vs theirs. The end. This point has been raised numerous times on this blog, and yet, you continually ignore it. Oooo…’shocker.
Certainly you have the discernment to know the authentic from the imposter, no? Yes, I believe with all my heart that you do Boomslang. What does your heart tell you? The heart (deepest you) is trustworthy, is closest to God. Listen to it, then you will know.
My heart pumps blood. It doesn’t “tell” me anything.
Bill,
You’re not listening friend, it certainly speaks. You hear “it” in beautiful music, in colorful artwork, in nature, in love. And since God is love…
I’m pretty sure we decided that your god is also a brutal controlling dictator. I definitely dont hear that in beautiful music or colorful artwork
“Certainly you have the discernment to know the authentic from the imposter, no?”
Authenticity based on *what* standard? Note, using “the Bible” as a reference for the “standard” is circular reasoning—you’re back to square-one, and my point, underscored. Sure, I can “discern” between “good” and “bad” using my own biased, subjective wants, desires, etc., and project that onto what I’d *like* to see in a “God”. However, I would never ever suggest using such a method in searching for what is Objectively, Universally “True”. After all, that is precisely what you(and the Phelps gang) are attempting to do, and thus, why I’m not convinced that you(or they) know any “Objective, Universal Truth”, despite your unceasing insistance that you have found it.
“Yes, I believe with all my heart that you do Boomslang. What does your heart tell you?”
My “heart” doesn’t “tell” me anything, as you been told the dozens of times that you parrot this canard. Again, this is metaphorical, pseudo-spiritual jargon for “intuition”..or, “gut instinct”. Moreover, man’s “gut instinct” has proven to be UNreliable for ascertaining what is true about the Universe we live in.
“The heart (deepest you) is trustworthy, is closest to God. Listen to it, then you will know.”
What “God”?
“And since God is love…”
No; LOVE is “love”. “Love” is not uniquely available to “Christians”.
Oh cool – then I’m right! I knew they were non-belongers! Thanks John C!
These people represent a very very small fraction of a percentage of cHristians. I think they’re comical… Waving a Canadian flag. Are they from Canada?
No, they’re from Topeka, Kansas. Notice that the flag is upside down, so it’s supposed to be an insult.
WBC loathe Canada. Not only do we allow teh gay to get married, just like “normal” folks, but Phelps has at least once been turned back from the border for violating hate speech laws.
So glad we have ‘em. Makes it much easier to confine Phelch and his brood (I believe most of the WBCers nowadays are related by blood or marriage) to their hate-filled basements.
This must be an example of Poe’s law. This is a parody, right?
…Right?
Sadly, it is not a parody.
Sadly, no it’s not.
While watching this abomination I went back to the days when I was in a fundy choir and then to the general use of singing in church. When tied to ideology, singing strongly reinforces certainty bias (the emotional feeling of being right). The various ways in which a ideology reinforces certainty instead of reason goes a long way in explaining the craziness.
Shared this on FB and Tweeted it as well. It’s amazing the amount of sincere idiocy on display here.
(To the admin: I found a link the other day you might find interesting. I haven’t seen it mentioned yet, so I’ll send it along if you want. Let me know . . . )
Always open to new stuff, feel to send it along.
What isn’t wrong with them?
Phelps and his church are bigoted. However, I think they do something useful. The Slacktivist once had a post discussing them, and I think it’s worth bringing up his points here:
WBC and Fred Phelps’ theology is legal. Phelps is able to stand at his pulpit and express his hateful views about how God hates just about everyone, and he is free to do so (his legal troubles are due to an incident of assault, not his hateful views). WBC has complete freedom of religion. Since other Christians’ views aren’t nearly as hateful as those of WBC, and since WBC has freedom of religion, other Christians also have freedom of religion. This shows that no one is being persecuted.
I wonder. Do the members of the WBC believe that they are immune to God’s hatred? What do they think they are accomplishing? Does spewing this hatred make them think that God sees them in a better light?
I guess I’m asking for sane explanations of insane people. But I don’t understand just what they think their goal is.
I have the exact same thoughts. I’ve been wikipediaing (it’s a verb) Fred Phelps and his daughter and also looking at the WBC website and it’s horrible.
O—kay. Armchair psychologist time. Fred Phelps hates himself and is unable to internalize it, so he turns his hatred outward. He considers himself to be no good, but can’t take that without condemning the rest of the world, as well. He brainwashes his children into his philosophy (if one can call it that). As Fred suffers from his condition, he wishes to see the rest of the world suffer as well. Hence, he does the most distasteful things possible within the limits of the law.
Why does Fred hate himself? Possibly because he has homosexual tendencies himself, and his church taught him that homosexuality was evil. Unable to control his “evil” thoughts, he manifests hatred of himself. Throw in some abuse as a child, just because it seems to fit the theme here.
That’s my two cents. Actually, it is based on nothing but idle speculation and is worth considerably less than that. But I’ll take it as a not-impossible explanation. I will gladly listen to better informed ones. :)
Don’t Christians in general hate themselves? I’m not trying to be incendiary here, I’m asking because when I was a regular church goer, we were constantly told how sinful we are. We were told to “get downwind” of ourselves. We were constantly browbeat about how man is sinful, imperfect, and undeserving of the goodness of God. So that’s why Jesus came… to act as a merciful intercessor between us horrible, sinful, awful people deserving of eternal torture deemed appropriate by a perfectly just god.
If believing yourself deserving of eternal torture isn’t self-loathing, then I don’t know what is…
certainly self-love is frowned upon in many fundie circles (and I mean the OTHER self-love). When I attended a bible college way, way, way long ago the song by Whitney Houston about the love of oneself is the Greatest Love of All was on the radio and I don’t know how many times one or more of the teachers/preachers taught on the evil secularist message of that song. Drove me batty. There was to be NO appreciation of oneself or the talents one inherently owned. It was all about how lucky you were to have them and how were you planning to serve God with them. Gross.
Where I come from, Christians are supposed to “hang themselves on the wall”, scrutinize themselves and figure out where they’re going wrong so they can fix it – and never to congratulate themselves for their successes, because when you feel like things are going well, it’s always a sign that things are going horribly wrong. This has led with incredible readiness into a game of “I’m the unworthiest servant! No, me! No, ME!” that they play out every Sunday.
I am just really, really glad that I got out of that before I had spent too much time playing their game.
I’ve long believed that poor ol’ Freddy just really, really needed a taste of cock, but because of his fundie freakshow beliefs, he couldn’t have one, so he decided to make everyone else as miserable as he was.
Which is similar to the way I feel about Saddleback Warren, Ted “I’m cured, I’m cured … Oh god, look at that pool boy … I’m cured!” Haggard, and Pat “It’s teh gays’ fault!” Buchanan, among others.
From what I recall from a certain tv show, when one of the daughters was asked if they would be happy or sad if their fellow wingnuts/family members were sent to “hell”, she responded that she would be happy because their god’s “will” and “perfect judgement” was being borne out.
When asked what they might think if she was sent to “hell”, she said she’d expect them to be happy for the same reason.
Not only do they hate the rest of the world, they detest themselves and each other too.
Actually, I meant to put the above reply on this post. A bit too dumb to use the internet properly, I’m afraid. :)
I’ll pray for enlightenment for you in re: use of the internet. *wink wink*
There’s (not) only one thing I absoulutely am unable to comprehend: If God(tm) [choose your flavour] created the world, while under the influence of omni-omni, then why on Earth(tm) does he hate just about anything about it? I mean if some lines of Darth Vader, or Sauron, or Dr. Doom, are a bit cheesy, then what, in the name of Thor’s Cojones, is the behaviour of this God(tm)?
“Thor’s Cojones” LMAOOOOO!!!!
Are you familiar with the general mood of the perfectionist about their work? It’s awful! It’s ruined! Can’t you just see all the flaws? Cringing and howling and curling up in a ball, throwing everything away, starting again and again and again. Maybe some self-medication. That certainly fits the profile. People who are abusive also tend to behave with perfectionist tendencies. Impatience, things having to be just so, little things sending someone over the edge into their spiral of rage. They call this god’s will. They say he loves with wrath, whatever is his will is for our own good and we’ll understand in time. But really, everything’s cool in the closet, you know? This is what is known as a coping mechanism, which is what religious beliefs are.
That’s what is in the name of Thor’s Cojones.
Good thing thats not what Christ came to bring…whew! :Smile Kodie, smile!! :)
You’re in deep denial! I’ve basically reworded your thing about the fall in language most people recognize. That’s your god! I don’t have a god.
You dont understand the fall, you referenced literal “fruit”, etc. Your rewording got it re-wrong, lol. Im just kiddin’ with ya Kodie…be nice would ya??
You are like a child hiding in the closet where it feels safe and reminding yourself over and over again your abusive dad really does love you until it becomes true. If there were a way to aggregate all your posts together without any context, that’s what you sound like. Mantra mantra mantra. Cope cope cope. That’s warped John. I hate anyone to feel like you sound like when I read between the lines.
Kodie – very well said. Religion/christianity perverts love terribly, and that was one of the issues that damaged me so much. It’s still a challenge for me to discern “real” love from the “fear” love I grew up with.
there is no such thing as love and that is evident by noone loving another exactly the same. There is only descent and nondescent behavior; love is a relative concept.
@Believer (again) – “There is no such thing as love”. Maybe you are right in an evolutionary sense – we “love” those who serve a survival purpose. This is how social networks were formed. Because people were weaker than some predators, but more intelligent, it was beneficial for them to form clans to defend one another. And we help to ensure the survival of our species and our DNA by “loving” our spouse and children. But there may be more to it than that also…thoughts, anyone? (this is off topic – sorry Daniel)
“there is no such thing as love and that is evident by noone loving another exactly the same.”
This proves the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove. It says that there are many types of love, which I agree with.
As far as I’m concerned, there’s nothing “Jesus-y” about these people, so the label “Christian” cannot and should not be used to define them. Second, there’s an extremely enlightening and well-put-together BBC documentary about the Phelps called “The Most Hated Family in America.” It sheds a lot of light on the mindset of the Phelps, just how extreme and isolated they really are, and the cult-like effect Fred has on the rest of the family. You can find it at this link:
http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?video/00260/atheist/the-most-hated-family-in-america/
I actually came away from it with the slightest bit of empathy toward them … would be interested to see how others view it.
I’d like to address some of the theological questions posed above, but I’m at work and honestly can’t devote the time necessary. From the perspective of a “believer,” the short answer to how these folks can believe what they do and translate it into the life they’ve created is, “I dunno.” It makes no sense.
“As far as I’m concerned, there’s nothing “Jesus-y” about these people, ”
Depends on your Jesus. But look at the Jesus who stormed the Temple, called Jews the children of the devil and revealed to John of Patmos all the horrible things he was going to do to the humans in the end times. I think you’ll spot some resemblance.
Not if you really knew Him, and that is the whole issue isnt it Vorjack?. We are the temple of the holy spirit and He has “stormed” my inner man, thrown out the “money changers” (false merchandisers peddling lies) and set me free from my old Self, revealing the true.
It wasn’t Jews (of paternity in that sense) He was calling “children of the devil”, it was children of the devil meaning his offspring, they do the oppresive works of their father who was a liar since the beginning. The question is, whose offspring are we? We all have a Father (an origin, a Source) but thankfully spiritual adoption is always an option as long as we have breath. Ya know that God given pneuma, the breath of Life.
They’re not Christians to you and your not Christians to them and neither one of you are Christians to bunches of other Christians.
Keep following that path. Skepticism is good. :)
@John C -interpreting interpreting and interpreting the word of God – “no it wasn’t Jews, even though it says it was, it is something nicer – no it isn’t a temple, it is something completely different, but fits my nice story better”
If you REALLY knew him, you’d know what I know, but I’m not going to tell you the TRUTH that I know… it’s in a verse, but it’s like, IN the verse, like He is IN you…only He’s not, He’s actually in me… you interpreted it wrong, so did the person that told you to interpret it that way
Maybe send me a nice message and I’ll tell you the REAL way to read the same sentence – it will set you free and allow you to commune with the TRUE I AM that has dwelled within you since the beginning
btw, I still think giving the Phelpses the time of day only plays into their hands. They are never going to change their views, and no light we shed on their atrocities will do a lick of good.
Watch the BBC reporter’s attempt to calmly make in-roads with the family during his month-long stay with them on their compound … he attempts to have sane conversations with them, but they are nearly impossible to come by. (in the documentary I linked above)
I think it is important that these types of beliefs do see the light of day. The more people that know about the dangerous way some think the easier it is to avoid them. It might also help for the few christians that see to question their own views. I doubt there is much of a chance of someone running to join their cult from just seeing the video.
Louis Theroux is brilliant at that kind of thing. He did a whole series on the US which included staying on a white-supremicist compound for a while, and doing a road-trip with a straight guy who performs in gay porn and a fundie minister. His innocent nature makes people open up to him.
I think any time you take religious fanatacism to any extreme you destroy any good that religion was originally founded upon. It’s quite sad :(
Unless its fanatic, extreme love, cuz that’s who He is.
Is he really? “my Father is Love.” Kind of a strange love i’nit?
Who’s wrath is it that Jesus dies to save us from. Not Satan’s, pain-in-the-ass though he may be.
Whose…?
You wanna understand the wrath of God Nomad? Do you? Its like this: “The wrath of God shall consume what we call ourselves so that the real self God made shall appear”. George Macdonald.
There is the wrath of God for you my friend, like all else He does, its beautiful and always redemptive in nature.
Yeah. Right. I’m glad that’s only a myth. It may be many things but it is not beautiful.
Sin literally spoiled the creation (us) and marred His image and likeness so its not man that God’s wrath is directed at, but the sin that he clings to, that clings to him. When the sin (death) is off, then man looks a lot like his Father. That is beautiful and what God longs to do in and for each of us, restore us to who we were intended in creation.
All His works are redemptive and love-birthed.
So wait a second. This one time, god made some people and he made them all perfect and stuff. Then they liked to try some fruit and then god was away at the time and when he came back he said, did you eat the fruit? That I told you not to eat? Well, now go. Go, and you can’t come back, and that’s how he decided we were all going to be sinners after that. No more perfect people, it’s all ruined.
Hey, that wasn’t redemptive at all! You lied!
Then later, he came up with a plan. A lot of shoddy work. I think if he’s god, he would have come up with a total airtight plan. So like that wasn’t redemptive either. It’s supposed to be, but it was like sending someone a singing gorilla-gram for their sins. Jesus died, we’re all going to die…. and? I think when you start with this perfect god ideal and he bones this redemption thing, it sort of looks like he’s unfamiliar with how to present this concept to actual people and unqualified for the job. But then people think he’s perfect, I think I’ll put that at the top of my resume too and see how it flies. Everything else that comes off like a circus side show must be perfect too. It’s the only way it makes sense to anyone at all.
Try turning it upside-down, John.
One thing about Christianity of every kind is a basic lack of honesty. It recognizes the anger of its God. But rather than acknowledge his wrath (anger) the meaning of the word is changed. Wrath becomes something like love. The same as moderate Christians do in that they declare an alternate to empirical truth, mythological truth, and subscribe to Christianity on the understanding that the Bible is not meant to be taken literally..
Kodie-
You simply refuse to believe the goodness of God, His true nature and heart for you, so you will have it your way, yes you will.
Have it girl, have it.
Nomad-
In the same way that you would interpret a letter from a dear friend more clearly than you might one from a stranger…by degrees. The more you know Him, the more you understand His words.
Wrath only equates to love in an abusive relationship.
No John, I simply and very easily disbelieve the existence of god. You simply refuse to examine things through a non-god lens. You are corrupted and you bask in it, and there’s no explanation for it. No explanation why we would try it your way, only that this has overtaken you for reasons you don’t elaborate. Which is entertaining sometimes and really boring sometimes. You ever have a tv with a broken dial, and so you can watch tv, but only the one channel?
Also, never say ‘have it girl, have it’ again.
Yeah. Right. I’m glad that’s only a myth. It may be many things but it is not beautiful.
You got that right; for starters, it’s patently absurd.
Wow John … So you believe in God, the stalker who won’t leave you alone?
God the co-dependant who loves you until you die, then sends you to burn for eternity in his private torture chamber?
God, the dude who knowingly set us up to take the Fall like some creepy abusive husband?
“I know I put the apple right there. I wanted you to see it. But I didn’t want you to eat it. That was daddy’s apple. You gonna listen to some stupid snake, or to me? Huh? Answer me! Yeah, that’s right … “You, Daddy”.
“I know I didn’t tell you “Why” … You don’t need to know “Why”–You know you get confused when you think about stuff like that, so just leave it to me.
“Now you know you’re gonna have to pay for that, right? I mean, I can’t just let you get away with that. What would the rest of humanity think, huh? I hate to do this, but I have to. Now bend over, honey … Yeah … Daddy only sentences you to death and eternal torture becos he loves you …”
Truly a God worthy of my love and worship.
You’re not seeing right Met, thats not the story, but you THINK it is, so to you, for now…it is.
But it isnt.
I happen to agree that all G-d does is beautiful and redemptive in nature. It’s fascinating to reflect upon how different and limited and spooked my life would be if I believed that wrath was one of G-d’s works.
Vorjack -
First of all, how’s it goin’? Long time no talk. Hope you’re well. Second, I appreciate your points about Jesus, but I simply little correlation, especially when the verses you cited are responsibly interpreted. Jesus’ “holy rage” in a few instances during his ministry was directed toward religious leaders who thought they had it all together (good evidence that Phelps would be on the receiving end of some of Jesus’ rage) or who took advantage of the poor by turning holy places into places of commerce.
In every instance in the New Testament, the verses about Hell and damnation are directed toward religious people who have traded in justice and mercy and love for power and self-righteousness and judgment. Check out Real Live Preacher’s three-part series on Hell, in which he investigated every instance of the word and similar terms. I can’t find parts 1 and 3, but here is part 2: http://www.reallivepreacher.com/node/357
I suspect your “responsible interpretations” would differ from mine. Frankly, I suspect your straining these verses through your theology. You’ll notice I didn’t mention any of the verses that mention hell, only the verses that depict Jesus as an apocalyptic figure.
Take the storming of the temple as an example. Both the moneychangers and the animal sellers had a legitimate – even vital – role to play in the functioning of the temple. There were no hypocritical religious leaders here, merely people who needed pigeons for a sacrifice and diaspora Jews who needed to exchange their foreign money for coins without graven images. If this was wrong, the entire popular understanding of the religion was wrong.
The actions of Jesus disrupted the functioning of the temple. In fact, according to Mark, “he would not allow any one to carry anything through the temple.” This must have taken a fair number of followers to pull off; Herod’s temple was huge. So we have Jesus, storming and holding the Temple in Jerusalem with a number of his followers shortly before the time of Passover – why? Because he was offended at the interpretation of the commandment about graven images? Because the poor were making sacrifices of inexpensive pigeons – as his parents had done when he was born?
No, this was political theater, done in such a way as to disrupt the sacred rites of countless observant Jews. This was either the act of a man who believed himself to be a messiah or a man convinced that the end times were upon us. How many diaspora Jews had made the trek to Jerusalem for passover, only to have their sacrifice chased off and their money cast to the ground? How many perfectly innocent families were chased from the temple so that Jesus could show off his “holy rage?”
Given the distance between our time and his, it’s impossible to say how offensive the population found all this. But it’s just possible that this would be considered as offensive as picketing a funeral.
vorjack, that is a very thoughtful post. I hadn’t thought of Jesus’ actions at the temple in that way. Add to what you said his comments about the temple being destroyed, and his comments about the religious rulers of the time, and it’s not too much of a stretch to liken Jesus to a Fred Phelps. Interesting!
That’s not an accurate understanding of Jesus and the “temple” but nobody seems to care…so have it your way. God is a king, but not Burger King (ya know, hold the pickle, hold the lettuce…have it your way?)
We do care, or else we wouldn’t spend so much time talking about it. But we require a more sophisticated approach… one that includes evidence.
How “sophisticated” are little children? You want “evidence” for something that the One who the whole deal revolves around (Jesus) said would require a childlike trust, an innocence and sophistication is not a childlike attribute.
No. You are right. Childlike qualities include gullibility and naivite.
When we are reduced to gullibility and naivite, then the flood gates are open for abuse and controlling behavior. I will never again subject myself to that.
You’re right LRA, you have learned your lesson, a harsh one indeed, I’m sorry you experienced it, but at least now you know what it’s not, what you dont want, what doesnt satisfy us.
I hope you never again submit to the oppressive religious “system” of the Institutionalized Church (IC). At least we have that one thing in common.
So you “agree” with me even as you espouse the doctrine that allowed my abuse?
No, we are implored to guard our liberty in Christ, not submit to heavy handed, external, controlling, religious types and systems. Surely you remember (from your “church” days) it was the “religious” leaders that Jesus had all the problems with, the words of rebuke for??? Why can’t you make the transition today? Nothing has changed, the Pharisees are everywher, they have a distorted, authoritarian view which would oppress people, place them under heavy rules, expectations, etc.
“they have a distorted, authoritarian view which would oppress people, place them under heavy rules, expectations, etc.”
You mean like Paul?
No, Paul (the Christ in Paul) was the one imploring the Galatians not to be subject again to a yoke of slavery (religious duties), etc, but to remain free.
And what was Paul’s stance on women???
That there is no distinction, no male or female, Jew or Greek, free or slave but all are one in Christ Jesus (Gal 3:28).
That husbands should love their wives as Christ loves us. Paul is not a woman-hater if that’s what you’re getting at as some “fundies” have tried to say and practice.
1 Corinthians:
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
The problem with that is there was no “church” building at the time of Paul’s writing, they mostly met in homes due to persecution, etc. The Weymouth NT translation refers to a “church assembly” and that if they are married to inquire at home. Have we missed the real meaning? I dont know. I dont have a specific answer that will suit you in all likelihood LRA.
I guess we’ll just have to add women, to the song…God hates the world, fags and…women? Heavens no.
Honestly, just admit the contradiction. I pointed out that Paul’s doctrines are oppressive. Then I provided textual evidence for that claim. How can you honestly defend Paul? You can’t.
I mean, really, do you think it is acceptable to silence one’s voice based on an arbitrary difference that individuals can’t control? I am a woman. I am also deserving of a voice in all areas that affect me. And, no, my husband doesn’t get to silence me. Period.
So just throw out all the liberating verses and concentrate on one that suits your bias, agenda even though we may not fully understand the cultural and timeline implications? Go ahead LRA, if you want to believe God hates women (as if Christ went to the cross for men only or something) it’s your choice.
I appreciate you nonetheless!
Either you accept the Bible or you don’t. Just be honest. Don’t put it on me, defend it, if you can!!!
And if you choose to focus on liberating versus, then, you my friend, are cherry-picking. What do you believe? Do you believe the Bible or not?
And furthermore, if you think oppression was fine then, but not now, then you are making a claim that slavery was fine then, but not now. In other words, you are a moral relativist.
Now, that being said, I am also a moral relativist (in that I believe morals are socially constructed), but as a Bible-believer, you undermine your position by making this claim.
And… if there is a God, then it is not a misogynist… but biblegod clearly is.
Its not a bible that I defend, but a God that I serve. If Paul tells men to “love their wives as Christ loved the church, giving Himself up for it” asking husbands to place their wives needs above their own, how can you still come to some sexist conclusion? I dont understand LRA. Have I ever treated you unfairly or “less than” on this forum because you are a woman? I dont think so, actually quite the opposite if you will be candid about it.
If you defend Christianity, then you defend the Bible. All of it. But in all fairness, yes you have been generous with me. That being said, I don’t consider you a Christian, but a Platonist. That being said, you honestly can’t defend the Bible, only the verses you cherry-pick from it.
So, just as a reminder, any verse that deprives women of moral agency is severely morally questionable. Yet, here it is (again):
1 Corinthians:
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Plato didnt give his life for me, Jesus did. I dont worship Plato (as much as you want to deflect my focus off of Jesus) I worship (serve, love) Christ,
So, for you to tell me I am a disciple of Plato and not Christ would be analogous to me telling you that you are a Unitarian since you deny the divinity of Christ?? Makes no sense girl, but I can laugh about it with you :)
Well, if giving one’s life is the stipulation for savior-hood, then why don’t you worship war heroes?
Why don’t you read Plato’s Republic. Seriously. You’ll be shocked to see how many ideas you espouse are contained in this one work. 500 years before Jesus was born.
Also, you failed to address my criticism that the Bible denies moral agency to women.
LRA-
I dont care to argue with you, we have had so many good discussions in the past and we are starting to re-hash old ones, getting kind of redundant. I know your hot button issues, women’s rights, scientific proof, etc and respect you and your right to believe what you do. I merely offer a seldom heard “differential diagnosis” apart from the typical fundie type comments.
Aw, c’mon! Really? Perhaps I boxed you into a corner you can’t get out of? Really, I think you are a nice man and very sincere, but this is the best you have to offer in defense of my mortal soul? Do you really want to face God on judgement day and tell him/her that you gave up on my soul because you don’t care to argue with me? Is my soul worth so little to you?
Good suggestion, thanks! Might get me off my butt to do that.
John C fails to address any pointed, direct question or statement.
Im not responsible for anyone’s soul but my own, My only responsibility and privalege is to love God and love others. I have no “qouta” system contrary to popular opinion.
You didnt box me in any corner, its all a matter of perception and we have very disparate viewpoints, thats all. You choose to think Christianity is sexist based on one verse that “appears” that way to you and due to your past fundie experience. I see and know otherwise.
God loves all….”He” is not male, has no gender, is Spirit.
My friend, I like you as a person…I really do! But you are wrong! The bible is filled with hateful verses against women:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html
Please, consider the fact that you may be wrong.
Love, that’s who He is and what its all about LRA, really.
And where do you get this idea from???
Is that really a foreign concept to you? Or are you just doing your usual “proofing”? I’m seriously asking you.
Dear fellow Ufers-
Please notice that I have managed to evoke the most concrete conversation of of JC to date. Because of this, I feel that I’m quite deserving of a UFologist award. Wait. That doesn’t sound quite right. Let me restate… I’m quite deserving of a Crazy Party award…cuz a party isn’t any fun till Jezuz shows up… wait no… that doesn’t seem quiet riot… I’m quite deserving of a funky town award… wait, Christianity is about romanticized, marginalized individuals that middle class America just can’t understand… not so funky… ok I give up…
Hi five?
I laughed a few back @John C: afraid of “getting kind of redundant.”
John C – Paul’s hatred and condemnation of women is not “opinion”. It’s right there, in your holy book. In black and white. You didn’t address it, you just changed the subject by quoting another verse. How do you account for Paul’s mysogeny (and the many, many other instances of same in the bible)?
John is not here to argue.
He is here to babble uncomprehendingly and “witness” to people.
LRA I’m amazed that he stuck with you as long as he had. I’m sure he was thinking he had struck up some kind of rapport with you.
Sunny-
I consider LRA a friend (sorry LRA hope this doesnt get you banished from UF, ha) and sympathize with her story. She is passionate, fiery and opinionated-just the kind that God loves to reveal Himself too! And to top it off, she is also a fellow Texan! Yeehaw lol. Actually I’m not from here, am from heaven but I got here as fast as I could! (she will understand that).
Peace Sunny…peace.
John C never responds to my direct questions. I guess it was too much to expect he would respond to you, LRA. Nice try though.
“How ‘sophisticated’ are little children?”
They’re not sophisticated at all, and their being unsophisticated might explain how they can actually believe that they can have a “relationship” with a stuffed animal, or a favorite blanket.(or an invisible being) It’s also interesting how you refuse to take “no” for answer. Child-like? ‘ Think so.
“You want ‘evidence’ for something that the One who the whole deal revolves around (Jesus) said would require a childlike trust, an innocence and sophistication is not a childlike attribute.”
That’s interesting. I have to wonder, then…… was “the One who the whole deal revolves around” telling that to all of the people it supposedly appeared to – for example, to “the Twelve”, and to the 500, plus, onlookers – thus, giving them *evidence* to believe? That didn’t seem to harm anyone’s “free will”. No—in fact, biblegod appearing doesn’t harm free will one iota—because, while we might not be able to honestly “REJECT” its existence, we can certainly reject its policies, and whether or not we want a “relationship” with IT. I wouldn’t want a “relationship” with a woman who is out-and-about 24/7, let alone, with a “man”.
Boomslang–
Where you writing from? What time of the day/night is it there? Just curious.
You have a historical, physical understanding of Jesus, but like us that was just his earthly garment. God is neither male nor female, no gender.
“You have a historical, physical understanding of Jesus..”
Yes, per the bible–otherwise, neither I, nor you, nor anyone else, would have any idea who “Jesus” (supposedly) is/was.
“…but like us that was just his earthly garment.”
Right, so okay, have it your way……then biblegod donning its “earthly garment” did not/does not harm anyone’s “free will”. In other words, it’s a bullsh*t argument, Johnny…..the whole “hidden God” thing. ‘K?
I entirely disagree with your Burger King paradigm.
Surely the lesson of the WBC versus yourself is that people CAN and DO “have God their way”. Plus of course, they’re both man-made and entirely inferior to KFC.
That’s a good one Custador :) Can I borrow it sometime?? lol
Please, help yourself :-)
Excellent. Please accept my admiration. :)
Is it bad that I always laugh when I watch this video?
I keep waiting for the day when the whole church comes to the media and reveals itself as one big joke. That’ll happen one day, right?
…Right?
No, it will not happen; but no, it is not bad that you laugh when you watch this video. It’s a damn sight better than taking this inbred gaggle seriously.
God hates the world? I dont think so. I seem to remember a little verse that reads…for God so loved the world…
“…for God so loved the world…”
…that he drown “the world”, killing its occupants. Hooray for biblegod; mission accomplished(since he evidentally couldn’t get its desires accomplished the first time)
So loved the world that he set up a game where you have to believe something or he will send you to a place where you are tortured for eternity. He both created this place and billions of circumstances where individuals will never have a chance to find out and believe the one story that will keep them from eternal torment.
Why design such a sick and twisted game?
A strange love indeed. And let’s say that you are among the lucky few who escape the ultimate holocaust, won’t there be an inkling of survivors guilt knowing that a thousand fell to your left hand and 10 thousand to your right, that this loving God, while you are dancing and shouting his praises, is in the process of destroying/torturing billions upon billions: and most for the most innocent of crimes: not believing without evidence.
because according to most christians, everything is done for his glory & you don`t matter. He played the same cruel game with Job. The bible actually gives play by play of the conversation between God & Satan concerning this horrible game played with a human life(if you believe that stuff)
Same thing happened in Orwell’s “1984″ – “thoughtcrime”. The irony is that I believed in christianity, while at the same time being horrified when I read that book. I didn’t see that I was a victim of the same fear and control tactics.
This must be an example of Poe’s law. This is a parody, right? – Jeremy above.
That was my first thought, too. But I’m almost certain that I recognize one of the women (light blue v-neck shirt with black underneath) from other of their protests. I’m not positive, and I really, really hope it’s a spoof/satire, but it actually looks pretty authentic, especially when one considers what they’ve done in the past.
Assuming it’s true, I’m not sure whether to be furious or heart-broken that such a song could be penned, especially in the name of Jesus….
@ Steve Jr.
Love your blog. First-time commenter, though. I am compelled to comment, though, because I’m not sure why you’d post this video here … is it to make a statement about the Westboro nutbags, about Christians, about religion in general? Just be careful that you’re not committing one of the “creationist tactics” you decried yesterday:
“Find an instance of a scientist behaving badly, and use it to make the claim that all scientists will do the same.”
As a non-religious follower of Jesus myself, I would strongly resent being lumped mindlessly with the Westboro folks. Not saying you’re doing that, but just wanted to throw in my two cents…
Thanks for your thoughts!
(btw, wassup, VJack!)
I do think that has happened here before, but I really don’t think that’s the case here. Daniel’s comments seem pretty specific and narrow in on the people in the video, I thinkl
The mind boggles…
How can anyone be this closed minded, mean and angry? Not to mention that if you’re trying to convert people, then telling them that they’re too late and are screwed no matter what they do is really bad policy.
They’re not trying to convert people.
There are blessings in disguise everywhere.
Yes. They are a uniter.
Hey they showed a “Cradle of Filth” t-shirt…the one that says Jesus is a cunt on the back!
“God is neither male nor female. no gender.”
Yeah, he’s smooth “down there”, like a Ken doll.
No, He is Spirit (John 4:4)
No he’s smooth down there. (Heathens 6:16)
Barbie is also smooth… could be a Hermaphrodite. Or, perhaps God is a pineapple. The symbol of hospitality.
Naaaahhhh….
“No he’s smooth down there. (Heathens 6:16)”
hahahahahahaha best response ever
If that’s true, how does he expect to be a good bridegroom for the church? Wouldn’t the church have a little shock on their wedding nite?
I am about as anti-religion as it gets, but I don’t think Phelps is a good representation of christianity. He and his band of fools are fringe even to most conservative christians.
Oops, should have read all the comments before I said this. This has been covered already.
LRA & John C – loved your back’n'forth on this thread – wish John C hadn’t given up. It was starting to actually get somewhere. It’s so exciting reading these comments saying almost word for word what I believe. I feel a little “insane” today from hours of debating christianity with my parents, and it’s like a wonderful glass of wine to read some sanity and common sense.
” I feel a little “insane” today from hours of debating christianity with my parents”
that almost never ends well , especially if your pops is a reatired preacher.
It NEVER ends well. I end up feeling guilty for speaking my mind, even though I tried to be kind. I know they are so worried about my eternal soul – my not being a believer is like a death in the family to them. Because religion is so narrow and dogmatic, my parents are unable to support my journey. I vow never to talk about the subject, but it’s hard to avoid. I just want them to have peace in their old age, and I don’t want to be the cause of their suffering (even though it’s brought on by their own beliefs). Thanks for your support.
i feel your pain ms greene. i have preacher parents too and you just described exactly what happens whenever i get into it with them. Especially the guilt part.
but the way i see it , if they try to change my beliefs , i try to change theirs.
Isn’t a lot of the problem that as a believer you have a lot more personally invested; also the core of your beliefs aren’t based on any real evidence so you have to go from numerous mental hoops to maintain your belief regardless of what is presented to you. I’m often amazed at how adept believers can be in twisting anything to suit their core belief.
I can relate to that. I am surrounded by fundamentalists. Help!
That’s why online community is important to me. I spent most of my life in religious craziness, and that horrible feeling comes attacking when I have these “discussions” with fundies.
I had tried to have that substantive conversation with John C myself *so many times before* and it has just never really materialized. I congratulate LRA on her achievement. :P
OK, I don’t usually post comments on stuff I see online, I prefer to absorb the information, and be on my merry…
However, after reading most of the comments here, I have to ask, does no one else find this even mildly humorous. I watched the whole thing and laughed almost all the way through.
Yes, it is a disgusting message that the WBC puts out. Yes, their beliefs are absolutely horrid. I just can’t help but find it funny on some level.
I want to make it perfectly clear, I in no way support the WBC (or any religion/supernatural belief for that matter), other than supporting their rights to free speech/belief that we all have. It’s just that there is something about smug superiority in the face of reality that I can’t help but laugh at.
I definitely laughed. My favorite part was the crazy woman’s solo and her back up part where she sang “so just stop it” hahahahhahaah
I was very surprised to find myself singing the refrain as I rode my bike home.
So catchy – I think they have a hit on their hands!
I like humming the Cthulu-inspired parody of “Joy To the World,” called “Death to the World”
Truly one of the most twisted group of people in America today. Many of the things they say and do would be god damn hilarious if it was satire but unfortunately it’s no joke.
I got 1:20 into it and could takes no more. Thanks anyway. What a pitiful bunch of people.
Yeah, but they seem so HAPPY that god hates everyone, and we’re all going to hell! To each their own brand of joy, methinks!
Reason is the Devil’s whore – Luther
*Skeptics cannot undermine beliefs which require spiritual insight to believe!*
Here is a fine example of the classic logical failure called an “immunizing strategy.” Only a believer can understand another believer’s beliefs.
An immunizing strategy amounts to deflecting away every request for reasoning outside the charmed circle of language which only a believer could use.
You cannot respond *rationally* to critics by saying that only those who are with me can understand what I have to say. It is a form of begging the question — presupposing without proof the very point at issue.
But, one pays dearly when immunizing a belief from criticism. It cuts off rational communication. (The immunizer gives up the right to be classed as a “reasonable person” by any logical or semantic criterion.)
There must be some starting point in a discourse common to believer and to critic. Otherwise, there’s nothing that can be talked about.
Now you know why the xian “conversion” process has always begun with “absurd” or “paradoxical” claims to induce belief. And to a rational Greek nothing was more conceptually contradictory than a “god on a cross.”
Xianity cannot be refuted; it can only be dismantled. The de-deification of culture (including the sciences) must be our task for the next 100 years.
anti-supernaturalist
I think that literally made me sick. How do these people hope to convert people to what they believe? Stuff like this makes me so upset.
oh yeah and the singing is epic fail.
That is the thing about the WBC, they are not out for conversions. According to their beliefs (if I am remembering what I have seen correctly) you are damned, they just wanna make sure that you are aware of it. To be honest, I do not know if they even think all of their own members are saved.
I don’t think it’s possible to convert people who are not already vulnerable. Anyone who has actually put thought into this issue would never be persuaded by christian rhetoric. Just like any other cult, they target people who are in trouble, and then use their “success stories” to prove the truth of christianity. For example, if a xtian can convert a drug addict or non-functioning alcoholic, they are the supportive community the addict needs to stop abusing subtances. This does NOT, however, mean that they have gotten to the root of their issues or why they were addicts in the first place. It is a very surface “healing”, and they often then cling to religion as their new addiction. My parents use these stories a lot to show how powerful “god” is. But the idea that a christian can convert an atheist is kind of funny, in a way. I think most atheists feel compassion for christians because of their beliefs, but they would never fall for it. But xtians just think that we have hardened our hearts, or something like that, and we are running from god. They just don’t get that once you know something, you can’t “un-know” it. I get this “running from god” comment a lot when I comment on atheist youtube vids.
I love this song. It makes me feel all warm and tingly, like the church songs of yore… and proves that there is nothing spiritual about that feeling – it’s simply a response to hearing a decently-organized and emotionally-inspired group of people singing a song together.
Thanks to this, I now understand: we need more atheist choirs. Volunteers?
I’m not an atheist or even an agnostic, but I would join an atheist choir in a heartbeat. We DO need not just one, but many. I luuuurve deliberate, thoughtful, visible atheists — and also those who have no desire to self-justify Y’all rawk. Represent, yo! Get thee a choir!
I couldn’t even finish watchin it. I had to pretend that it was actually a SNL skit, (which would in fact make it entertaining, then.)
So, let me get this straight. God made the world, but now hates it? Umm, then whose fault is that?
If I knit a baby sweater and then decide I hate the thing because I’m critical of myself I’m not going to blame the sweater!!!
The aspects of this that make it so ludicrous are numerous, but I won’t waste my time articulating them all.
Dudes, don’t look for sensibility in Westboro, and don’t waste your energy trying to figure them out. Seriously. We’re talking fifteen or twenty years of this offal from one man, or theoretically one group. I attended the University of Kansas in ’95-’96, and although the local chapter of Lesbian Avengers had just gone defunct, we did have the scheduled kiss-in… but Queers & Allies did not even bother to get a permit, and it was held inside a coffeeshop’s front windows. Further, National Coming Out Day activities were fun and successful; but before we sallied forth with that, everyone who’d been in Kansas for a while warned us very rigorously to Stay The Hell Away if we saw Phelps, because he was a lawyer, and he had a mythically vast platoon of lawyers, and his prowess at legal spindoctoring and putting kids on the books for spurious things was legendary.
In short, at that time it was only in our reality, in that part of the States, that he had any sway. But his brilliance-fueled craziness and his peculiar brand of blind ambition terrified people, especially given Kansas’ overall political climate, which was worlds away from that of KU’s college town, Lawrence.
It’s my belief that it was the first heady years of his endeavours with Westboro and our petrified, thoroughly abject response to him that made him a megalomaniac and taught him that verbal slash-and-burn tactics have so much power. They more you listen and respond to him/them, the more he wins, no matter how greatly against him you are. At the time of Matthew Shepard’s funeral, Westboro had just recently been going to the funerals of gay men who’d died of AIDS and dancing on their graves. Literally hundreds of people came from all over the country to Shepard’s burial in Wyoming, just to protect his family and the ceremony from Phelps. As heartwarming as that was, in hindsight I see how it did its part to empower Westboro further. It ensured their media coverage in relation to Shepard’s murder by bashing.
The title should be: God hates USA and who says?
@custador: U can`t be serious! creatordism as you call it & darwinism are equally without proof which is probably why darwin was agnostic rather than atheist. not to mention; since darwin died in 1882 (that`s a while) who has managed to advance his theory with any proveable evidence (not guesses and plausabilities). Question: if darwinism and the big bang are true then where did the starter material come from (in the very begining)? scientifically, somethingness for lack of a better word can`t come from nothing. in case you didn`t know, agnostic is a person who claims they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of GOD (but does not deny that GOD might exist) If the person whose theories you endorse allows for the mere possibility of a GOD, how can you say HE doesn`t exist? Are YOU smarter than charles darwin?…I think not!! de-he-he-he-STROY that. THANX.
It’s hard to cram every possible form of failure into a single post.
Congratulations.
I agree, I’ll have to cut and paste that Failpost for the scrapbook.
LOOOOOOOL!
1) Thread nesting FAIL!
2) Historical knowledge FAIL!
3) Knowledge of facts FAIL!
There is a reply button – try to use it.
Secondly, Darwin was NOT agnostic, he was dull-on, out-and-out atheist.
Who has advanced the theory of evolution (if you use the phrase “just a theory I am going to b*tch-slap you”)? Um, gee, I dunno – the human genime project? The guys who discovered that humans have a double-sized chromosome pair with a telomere in the middle to account for the one chromosome fewer we have than our common ancestors with apes? The geologists who constantly find excellent transitional fossils which have enabled us to show the transition between species? The scientists who have actually watched one strain of bacteria evolve into a new strain of bacteria – one which eats nylon, a human invention? The marine biologists who are watching killer whales off the coast of Britain evolve into two distinct species?
These are not “guesses and plausabilities” – this is evidence. And it is a tiny, tiny fraction of the MOUNTAINS of evidence which support Darwinian evolution. The fact that you are not sufficiently intelligent to grasp it does not make it untrue.
And for Creatardism and IDiocy? There is NONE. Not a shred. Bupkiss. Nada. Zilch.
And now we move on to my favourite piece of theistic bullshit: The creation of the cosmos.
In YOU OWN WORDS: “scientifically something cannot come from nothing”. (nb: Steven Hawking has suggested that that premise is untrue and that matter/antimatter pairs constantly pop into being but usually anhiallate each other, but let’s accept it for a second since it hasn’t been proven one way or the other yet).
You suggest that disorganised matter and energy floating randomly in a vaccuum cannot just always have existed, but that a being so complex as to be able to create an entire universe can? Logic and intelligence fail on your part on a MASSIVE scale.
Am I smarter than Darwin? Probably not, but I do have access to a whole lot more information and evidence than he did – and I happen to agree with his atheism based on that information and evidence.
Say…. Are YOU smarter than Charles Darwin?
Consider your bullshit destroyed and come back for more if you want, arsehole.
*hi fives fellow FAIL cop*
*chestbump* YEEEAAAAAHHHH!!!!
custador: bottom line is “any person that claims to know imperically how things came to be and obviously wasn`t there is an idiot( add U to the list). you`re the exact opposite of a lunatic christian spitting certainty where there is none. Oh; i don`t think a species of whale developing into another species of whale(adaptation) is the same as a whale growing legs and coming to land(evolution)…so maybe you can prove this stupidness in a million years, but as of now it is a theory just as strange as GOD. Difference tween us is, only 1 of us is intelligent enough to realize there are very few absolutes. If you know anything about science which i`m sure you say you do, you know that you have to start with an assumption to get it started. we know what happens when we assume(or do you?). I`ll end by saying this again…Darwin nver claimed evolution to be unquestionable natural law nor do I claim unequivically God exists (just that I believe because it makes sense to me).still too many holes in evolution to be a douche bag that swears by it. If you still think you crushed me take a poll; I`m sure noone thinks you`re as smart as you think you are…which would make them pretty smart.
For f*ck sake… You don’t think “adaptation” is the same thing as “evolution”? No? Because A) you’re a f*cking idiot and B) you have no clue how evolution actually works. No. Clue. You’re arguing against something that you don’t even understand – do you know how retarded that makes you look? Seriously, I’m going to quote you with corrections just to point out what a complete cock you are:
“i don`t think a species of whale developing into another species of whale(adaptation)[Note: WRONG! It's evolution, lit. "change over time"] is the same as a whale growing legs and coming to land(evolution) [Question: Explain to me the difference between a mamal species of mamal evolving into two new species of mamals which swim and into one which does and one which doesn't. Oh, that's right, there's no difference at all]…so maybe you can prove this stupidness in a million years, but as of now it is a theory [Note: I just knew you follow that standard Creatard argument from ignorance] just as strange as GOD.”
LEARN. WHAT. THE. WORD. THEORY. MEANS. WHEN. APPLIED. IN. A. SCIENTIFIC. CONTEXT. Did you get that? Look it up. I’m serious. You have no f*cking clue what the word means, but you use it anyway.
As for comparing evolution with God – EVIDENCE! I have given a fraction of the tons of EVIDENCE for evolution, but I have yet to see a single shred of EVIDENCE for god – and that’s on you. If you can’t provide any, then stfu and don’t come back until you can.
alleged evolution is brought about by adaptation and natural selection, they are not essentially the same since adaptation can occur within a few generations. Evolution is a far longer process(call me when it gets here.)
It’s only “alleged” to the point that gravity is “alleged.” Both are THEORIES. Please look up the difference between a theory and a hypothesis.
PS evolution is here – how did you miss it? We are living and breathing examples, as is every other species here today. Our toes are even getting shorter by the generation because we don’t need them to swing from trees anymore… next time you meet someone with webbed feet, consider yourself less evolutionarily advanced.
Adaptation is a consequence of natural selection, they are not two unrelated aspects of evolution
Yes evolution takes time. That’s why you were directed to the fossil record where you can see examples for evolution from the distant past to the present ( including the transition of land mammals into whales )so you don’t have to wait a few million years to see current animals evolving
Believer suffers from the classic symptom of theistic debaters: Complete ignorance of the thing which they are arguing against.
BELEIVER WANTS A POLL!
I like these. So, readers:
Part 1)
Who has the better grasp of evolution?
a) Custador, or
b) Believer
Part 2)
Who has presented more of substance to back up what they’ve said?
a) Custador, or
b) Believer
Part 3)
Please leave any additional comments you’d like to make.
*nb: Believer, I will be asking Daniel to check for IP address matches, m’kay?*
sure!
1 vote for custador in both questions
(Believer, seriously, you should try to understand the theory of evolution before trying to attack it. And while you are on it, check what the words “evidence” and “theory” mean in a scientific context)
1. a)
2. a)
3. I recommend that believer conduct some in-depth research and analysis of evolution, and a report back to the group. Start with some Dawkins… can anyone else recommend some books?
Sorry, I meant some Darwin, but Dawkins is also good.
I’m two for two, not bad on a necro thread :D
BRAAAAAAINS!
Brains beer is brewed down the road from here :-)
Don’t forget the myriad of angels…
“If the person whose theories you endorse allows for the mere possibility of a GOD, how can you say HE doesn`t exist?”
Those theories also allow the mere possibility of Santa Claus. But we don’t believe he exists. Do you? Should we be agnostics about a lot of things that are possible, without evidence? Gods, ghosts, alliens, conspiracies, Atlantis, matrix? Where are you drawing the line?
you don`t draw a line, you have intelligent conversation and research till facts become available to decide one way or the other. santa(fake); GOD, atlantis, evolution, the matrix….I dunnow. I do know they have not been sufficiently disproven…um juss sayin (a closed mind discovers NOTHING.)
Show me where there is more evidence for god than there is for Santa Clause.
“I do know they have not been sufficiently disproven”
They don’t need to be disproven. Should you disprove my assertion that I can fly and gravity law doesn’t applies to me, or would you ask me for evidences of my claim? Would you believe me if I can’t give you those evidences, til someone can prove I’m lying?
Wow. You really haven’t even read one article about evolution, have you?
Sorry, that last comment was directed at Believer, who apparently doesn’t believe in evolution (!?!)
He really has no clue what he’s “debating” against, but gosh darnit he’s gonna shove his opinion down our throats anyway.
@LRA: you seem very sensitive about the female thing. Calling GOD sexist is small minded and kinda` whiney. females don`t have a monopoly on persecution in the bible. the only people I didn`t see persecuted were children & I coulda missed that verse. If it makes you feel better, women aren`t any bigger target for HIS alleged wrath than the rest of us. Get over yourself.
Show me in the bible where it says that women can stone or beat men to death, or where men should be raped and then forced into matrimonial bondage with their rapist. It’s not just about what your fairy stories say god does, it’s about what they say men should do to women.
it also says he destroyed a world by flood. I think that includes men and children also. God is not persecuting women, he torments humanity period. Allegedly first born male BABIES were killed to stop jesus from coming. He has enough hate to go around; stop your whining.
Reading comprehension FAIL. I’ll quote myself:
“It’s not just about what your fairy stories say god does, it’s about what they say men should do to women.”
Me thinks you may have a troll here …
*Tags Jaster into the debating ring*
All yours old son.
not my fairy stories. I`m not sure if I believe it, but I definitely didn`t write it.
No, part of it was written by some namodic Arabs and the rest was written by a bunch of Middle Eastern scribes several decades after the events which they claim to portray.
could be, like I said; not my fairytales, I am not an author & I don`t take dictation.
And yet you still choose to believe in god, the same thing believed by a bunch of Bedduin camel herders thousands of years ago, over the word of every reputable scientific organisation on the face of the planet. Hmmm.
So god hates everybody, not only women. Is that your point defending god?
And children aren’t persecuted in the bible? He orders:
Samuel 15:3
“Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do
not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and
sheep, camel and donkey.”
See? Children and infants too.
Deuteronomy 20:
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
17 Completely destroy them – the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusite – as the LORD your God has commanded you.
Anything alive doesn’t include children?
Joshua 6:21
21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
What about the bear tale?
2 Kings 2: 23-24
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”
24 So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
So… their fault deserved their death?
Anyway… the bible is indeed mysoginistic.
not defending GOD(asshole). If there is a GOD, why would he need defending. All i`m saying is that you can`t rule out his existence… I don`t know what he would be about; however I seem to be the only one not pretending to have all the answers(interesting.)
I agree that you can’t rule out his -or their, by the way- existence. I don’t need him to explain anything, so his existence is irrelevant. And in case he would exist, we can’t know anything about his will, so my morals and my way of life aren’t affected by him.
saying the bible is mysoginistic is like saying hitler only hated jews; sure he did, but everyone that didn`t fit his concept would have had their turn. Hate might have a starting point, however it never ends where it begins…besides if GOD wrote the bible ,what did he use bic, sharpie, or #2 pencil…grow up!
“would have” had their turn? How do you know? Is there evidence that he planned to specifically kill anyone besides the Jews, or are you just reading his (dead) mind?
Also, if you use the words always or never, your argument will be torn to pieces. I believe that should have been taught in 7th grade english class.
Did you just compare Biblegod to Hitler?
Awesome!
Normally we atheists try to avoid that comparison because it’s cheap and easy and makes us look bad…. but you just did it for us! Thanks!
Believer – pwned by Godwin’s Law.
I’d say the comparison is rather unfair……To Hitler.
Yeah. Didn’t god just kill 150,000 people in a couple of days in Haiti??? He has VERY impressive kill numbers, and I challenge anyone to name a bad guy who can hold a candle.
A murderer is a murderer(1000 or 10,000)
Tell that to the 9,000.
so he`s a bad god(not the point)…point is he exist. whatever you feel he would be is unimportant, shoot; I might agree… still not the point. you don`t make me feel bad when you criticize God, I don`t know him personally to defend him. I don`t feel like he likes me anyway. that just means noone cares, not that noone is there.
Hey I know: Let’s hole Believer to his own standard.
“point is he exist”
PROVE IT.
how do you talk to 9000 dead people?
Don’t be fatuous. The point is it that the distinction matters to the extra 9000 victims.
its all the same. Steal $1,might as well steal $100. Kill 1000, might as well kill 10000. a thief is a thief, a murderer is a murderer, a rapist is a rapist.(what does it matter how many?)…SERIOUSLY, I need to know.
Steal $1 or $100? To me, big difference. I’ve lost $1 and it was, well, not OK but not so bad! Lose $100, and I’m depressed for hours! It impacts people differently. That’s the difference. It’s a practical, real-world look at morality. To me, morality is about level of suffering. Less suffering = more moral.
Kill 1000 or 10,000 people? If me or someone I care about is in that second group, it makes quite a BIG difference to me. 10,000 people can also destablize an economy, wipe out entire familes or clans, etc. Plus, if you assume that each person has 3 people who loves them, if you kill 10,000 people that’s 30,000 people suffering, in grief. I’m not sure how you can say that makes no difference.
Which brings me to a very interesting point! It seems like Believer has no conscience. Doesn’t care about people. Thinks god exists, but hates everyone (which is really a SPAG belief – Self Projection as God, which means that it is actually Believer who hates people – but that’s another conversation)….
My wonderful boyfriend is a christian. Not a churchgoing biblle thumping christian, but a believer in salvation & divinity of Jesus. As an atheist, it’s very weird for me so we just don’t discuss that. When he mentions it, I listen respectfully but don’t prosthetize at all about atheism, don’t mock him at all even though I think his belief is silly and destructive.
This morning, he said that he felt that his conscience was starting to develop – he was starting to become motivated by his own values rather than external ones. Then he said, “That damn religion, imposes all these rules, beliefs and fears and doesn’t let you develop a sense of right and wrong for yourself”.
It was pretty miraculous, since the same thing happened to me when I dropped christianity. I developed a conscience for the first time! This is a very exciting day for me, and wanted to share it with you.
It also puts perspective on the very pessimistic and dark view of the world for believer – as long as you believe god & jesus exist in the christian form, people are oppressed and fearful (usually). So it makes sense.
I hope this comment was understandable – I’m quite excited so I may have babbled a bit!
Don’t bother with him Janet, he’s just sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting “LALALA I’M NOT LISTENING!”
God hate jews until the end. Says who? … read your bible.
you`re assuming the bible is true…is it? I don`t know
I am assuming you believe the bible but not your god in the bible.
ass/u/me:
sorry, never your person whatsover.
?
Maybe jesus is interested.
There are lots of parts where God persecutes children by killing the first born or asking parents to kill their children to prove that they believe in him.
only one that seems stuck on bible God as you call him seem to be the atheists. my whole point has been that to presume to know who god is is foolish. me saying that he is is far different than saying who he is. HE might be hitler like; who cares!? the point is that he is, not what he is cause who the hell knows that? what I do know is that maybe only one religion is correct, which? I don`t know, but to believe a random series of accidents got us to this point in our universe is absurd… even at the scientific level.
“to believe a random series of accidents got us to this point in our universe is absurd… even at the scientific level.”
A) that is not what science says in any way shape or form.
B) Thank you for proving once again your utter, utter lack of understanding of that which you are arguing against.
not arguing. just pointing out that atheists and fanatic christians are the same thing (know it alls from opposite ends of the spectrum). I`m not trying to convert anyone,I mean,to what? I just find it funny that conventional christians quote the bible but can`t explain it. atheists spout a bunch of stuff from other brilliant minds and at best only understand the broad outlook. none of you guys know, but everyone is so sure they have it figured out. FOOLS!
Any person who calls another person a fool is in danger of hell according to an ancient book. Calling many fools here …
what ancient book? & who wrote it. who follows it and is it even true? Let me know.
forgot to ask, what is hell anyway…thought we were already here!
No, Believer. Atheists and Christians are not the same thing. The belief of Christians is based on fantastic tales of the supernatural in a several thousand year old book written by Bedduins and priests. It is not in any way testable or verifiable.
An atheist who believes evolution, however, does not have to make any such leaps of faith. Part of what makes it so strong is that it is testable; it predicts what should and should not exist and so it could be disproven very easily if it were wrong. Many people have tried over the last hundred years – hell, aside from the massive fame you’d achieve if you could disprove Darwin, you’d be looking at a Nobel prize at the very least.
“I just find it funny that conventional christians quote the bible but can`t explain it.”
That part is true in my experience.
“atheists spout a bunch of stuff from other brilliant minds and at best only understand the broad outlook.”
That part is false. Again: because YOU cannot grasp it does not mean that nobody else does. For example, LRA is an extremely well-versed scholar in the field and I myself am a fairly knowledgeable amateur.
Believer, the impression I’m getting of you is that you’re a young man in his mid to late teens who has something of a superiority complex; you’ve come here to tell us all that we are unwise for going in one direction or the other and that you are wisest of all because you are taking the middle ground.
The truth is that you don’t understand the atheist position at all. You don’t have the knowledge to argue against it, but you’re trying anyway. You don’t know what Darwin said about evolution but you’re still prepared to tell those of us who do that you know better.
As with a lot of people who plump for the middle ground in this kind of debate, you’re not being wise – you’re being mediocre at best.
no superiority complex here…I believe we`re all the same, which is not very much. I really wish I did believe in evolution, it would make it easier to understand why this world is so F`d up,considering we have soooooooo many geniuses.
I don’t need to believe “in” evolution the way you believe “in” God. The overwhelming weight of evidence says evolution happens (the fact that we’ve actually seen it happen is a big clue), therefore it happens.
Exactly, I can test evolution. Test god? If it shows up.
Believer, I do respect your agnostic belief system. I agree that there are certain things we cannot know about this issue. But this often happens in life. Not all evidence is 100%. We have to use logical inference, and deduce the truth based on what we do know.
And first we have to define what we mean when we say “god”. On this blog, I think most people are referring to the christian bible-god, yahweh. A personal god who created everything, is all-powerful, all-loving, reads our thoughts, and sometimes interferes with natural forces for miracles. Based on this definition of god, it’s pretty easy to demolish. There is ZERO evidence for this god. If you expand the definition of god to a deistic god, that’s more difficult. And if you say that god is “the ground of all being” (John Shelby Spong), or some power out there in the universe that we don’t understand, I would not know how to argue against the existence of that.
But the christian god? That’s a no-brainer.
I simply mean God(creator) exists…we don`t hang out or anything. who he is, a mystery…that he or it exist should be a no brainer.
Prove it. Hold yourself to the standard that Darwinian evolution already lives up to (despite your state of denial) and prove it.
“we don`t hang out or anything”
That’s the very “reason” you were created, to “hang out”, ie fellowship in the spirit. Love (God) cannot exist by itself, longs to share Life and Love with us, is too good to give us anything less than Himself but, as JC shared with us “he who worships God (longs to know deeply) must worship in spirit & in truth (since God is Spirit).
Go deeper Believer, there is much beauty and wonder awaiting your arrival, all the best.
which only proves my point that “bible god” persecutes indiscriminately…There`s enough hate for us all, just relax!