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The church did something good to the world: It built Oxford!
I love this town!
Oxford wasn’t built by the church. Most of the colleges were founded by Christian groups, though. It is a lovely town though, you’re right :-) My G/F just finished university there. Funnily enough, Dawkins lectured to her class a few times (she did Human Sciences).
Living proof that ‘sensible Christian’ is not always oxymoronic.
This is what I dream of every night.
I understand that it takes a degree of education, civilization, and diplomacy in order to accomplish that kind of a discussion, and I understand that not all parties are necessarily going to be able to live up to this standard.
But the brilliance of this discussion is that its goal is a better understanding of another’s opinions, a sharing of ideas. This should be the goal of every single discussion between a theist and non-theist. I understand that this is probably never going to happen, but I can dream!
Daniel, this is one of the things I appreciate about your blog! The fact that this video is up here and given a chance to speak for itself sets this blog apart from many of its fellows: I feel like you are actively interested in opening this kind of dialog between religion and atheism. For hosting this video, I sincerely thank you.
That video shows what I would consider to be the ideal between theism and atheism. I was never much of a fan of Dawkins until I saw some of his uncut interviews (before then it was just a few debates, which can get pretty repetitive).
I’d love to see him interview Fr. Reginald (Reggie) Foster.
“Invalid Parameters”
Found part 2 on YouTube, though.
Ok, I actually watched the video. This “Bishop” is not a spiritual man, that is obvious from the get go. He has the title, the wardrobe, etc but not the Spirit Himself. There is another, rare quality, yes even “treasure” that he would impart that being His spirit in abundance within and this man is merely “religious”. He doesnt speak for God, doesnt have the mind of Christ, sorry.
The real tragedy is that Dawkins thinks that since he is speaking with a “Bishop”, he must be representative of “God”, and so w/o the divine illumination these men are easily targeted, out-smarted, etc and Dawkins thinks all the more of himself afterwards. Its a pity, its a sham.
JohnC:
Ok, I just read your title. You’re not a spiritual man, that is obvious from the get go. You have the writing style, the attitude, etc but not the Spirit Himself. There is another, rare quality, yes even “treasure” that you would impart that being His spirit in abundance within and you are merely “religious”. You don’t speak for God, don’t have the mind of Christ, sorry.
See how easy that was?
It takes one to know one Mith, and he (the bishop) aint one, its that simple, sorry but its true. The sooner you learn what one is, the better of you’ll be.
Seems like a good argument but from your writing I can tell that you just don’t have the Spirit. Since you lack the mind of Christ you’ll forgive me if I don’t take you at your word. The sooner you are able to get this for yourself the better off you’ll be.
Sounds a lot like “nanny nanny boo boo” tit for tat petty crap there Mith. You can do better my friend, yes you can.
Sounds like you are too dense to recognize yourself in the mirror, or to comprehend the irony and hypocrisy. God has made you dumb, you asked to be dumb and gullible in return for great rewards of faith, you’re not all that sharp as a result. You can either speed up or go away.
I like that last line Kodie…pretty witty there girl I must admit!
Do you have anything to respond to the content? You are witless.
@Kodie: “You can either speed up or go away.” If John C speeds up, he might go away. Or at least be re-born :-) (Un-born? Again?)
Something I’ve found to be quite offensive is the many many times JC refers to women on this site as “girl.” Each time it seems so condescending. Does he refer to the men as boy? Not that I have seen.
It’s a Southern thing. When I greet my girlfriends, I say “hey, girl!” When they depart from me, they say “love you, girl!”
This is why you are entirely unworthy of respect, John. When people turn your own methods back on you, you can see how utterly ridiculous they are and yet are too ashamed to admit the slightest flaw. You call that truth? I call that douchebaggery.
No! *gasp!*
not… douchebaggery!
*fleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee……..
@ John C: “It takes one to know one…”. So, who would you like to see Richard Dawkins interview? Don’t say “someone with the spirit”, or “someone who is talking for God” – give me a name. Who would fit the bill for you?
According to you, and who do you think you are? The be all and end all on the word? Emphatically, no. No, you’re nobody.
John,
have you read about the Dunning-Kruger effect? Basically it states, from empirical observation, that people who are most easily out-smarted (picking up your term here) are least likely to notice and most likely to insist on their false opinions. Think about it.
To make it abundantly clear, what you think is the Holy Spirit working in you, giving you the superpower to discern who else is Spirit-filled and who is not, is a feeling borne of neurotransmission right in your brain. There is nothing additional in there that an atheist or a Catholic or an Anglican or a Buddhist or a Muslim does not have, no superpower, no being, no entity, and no dwelling spirit. Our brains have mechanisms integrated which make sure that we do not change our opinions easily, because confidence is an evolutionary advantage, even holding onto false beliefs as long as they don’t have manifest negative effects (like blowing yourself up before reproducing or letting your offspring die because you’re waiting for God to heal them).
It’s not your fault.
But you can shed it if you want to. Of course you don’t want to – your own brain makes sure you don’t, by making you feel confident and secure every time you think about the presence of God, the Holy Spirit, or Jesus the Son. Around this confidence, countless generations of clever men have built immense conceptualizations to shield their ideas. You have internalized these ideas and protective concepts to a very high degree. Maybe you’re going to have to spend the rest of your life cemented within them.
Probably you’re thinking ‘these people just love their sins too much, that’s why they make up all this stuff about neurotransmitters, confirmation biases, pareidolia, mirror neurons and all that’. There’s just one little thing that idea runs into and stops dead in its tracks: empirical reality.
John, you’re a victim. Don’t be a tool.
Excellent.
Felix-
Thanks my friend, I appreciate your comments and thoughtful response from your perspective. My story is quite different, not your typical “religious” scenario. Its not so much that I have convinced myself, but rather He has done it, even initiated it all. I didnt set out to be a Christian, had no interest in “God”, didnt believe or dis-believe naything about Him, knew nothing and was actually more inclined toward your (current) perspective in many ways. Maybe sometime I will share more about my story, not sure anyone really cares to hear it, no one has ever asked me why I believe what/Who I do, they are just quick, like yourself to dismiss it.
Take care.
False. You have been asked countless times to elaborate on your beliefs and add substance to your comments.
Okay Kodie…here’s one little tidbit for ya, try and view it “objectively” as you guys say and give me a solid answer for it okay? The problem is there is no answer, that’s the problem. You asked so here goes…
Once, in a severe season, a long while back, I was going thru an extremely trying time and I began to “wander away” from the God as sheep are prone to wander from their Shepard and found myself in some mischief, errh sin. In the middle of the “act”, actually two separate acts, an elderly female friend and spiritual mentor called me out of the blue from another city (I had not told her anything about what I was doing, hadn’t even spoken to her in weeks) and she said sternly “Craig (I have always gone by my middle name)…Father spoke to me, and said you are doing _____ and _____, now tell me, is it true?” She said exactly the two “sins” I had fallen into, she was spot on and very specific. I slunk down in my chair knowing I had been “found out” and sheepishly (no pun intended) replied “yes” at which point she lovingly corrected me, told me of the faithfulness of Father toward His children and firmly told me in no uncertain terms to “knock it off”.
I cant explain it, its not explainable in natural ways but i’m sure you will come up with something, go ahead give me some head trip explanation about some bogus brain wave deal or something, ugg. The truth is that “He who keepeth Israel (His true people, not a nationality) never slumbers or sleeps” Ps 121:4.
Thats just one of many, many stories that I could tell.
No brain wave deal necessary. Sounds like a routine case of cold reading. Sorry, can’t say more because that’s all you’ve told us.
Felix, lets be honest friend. You dont have a good explanation because there isnt one. Its ok, God is who He says He is, He is faithful and He is Love-Himself. The difference is that I foolsihly trusted, childlike just like Jesus said and most importantly I commited to the (entire) journey and it has brought tremendous fruit, fevelation, joy and understanding in the spirit.
There is more than meets the eye (or the unrenewed mind) my friend. Peace.
I think that’s called a “wake up call.” Whatever it was you were doing, you felt on one hand it was bad news for you. Someone in authority to you, or someone whose opinion of you matters to you snapped you out of it. It doesn’t seem to have anything to do with god necessarily. The way you told it is clearly recognizable as a scenario most of us have been through without the presence of god to make us recognize “sin” in ourselves. When I was in college, I was getting bad grades and I thought I was going to fail out, so embarrassingly enough, my mother resorted to bringing me to Sylvan Learning Center. Not that I had superior studying habits, but I was already in college and had gotten good grades in high school. When they assessed me as having no serious problem they could solve, my mother blurted out to me in the car ride home, “Are you doing drugs?????” I was not doing drugs. I was not doing anything “wrong.” I wasn’t applying myself and I wasn’t making a lot of friends nor was I the least excited about my settlement into a major just so I could graduate.
It sounds like the same situation except my mother didn’t have a short list of the reasons for my failure to thrive in the college setting. I was about 20, and a good kid. I’d just been put in a place that didn’t fit me or my goals, way out in farmland, so I was depressed about it and didn’t see the point. I think a lot of people have similar experiences, so for you to find the way out through god is an example of whatever kick you needed in the ass to stop behaving like a jackhole worked for you. It doesn’t work for everyone, and the same remedy does not work for every situation. A wake-up call is a wake-up call, rock bottom is rock bottom. If someone points this out to you and you are able to recognize that you are going in the wrong direction, you can straighten out to a more productive path. If you don’t, then you don’t. Your remedy is something you cling to and believe is the only solution because it was what helped you, but you fail to recognize how variable human nature is. You think it’s all god in you and christ in you that straightened you out, no, John, that is the device that helped you, but everyone has the opportunity to be helped by what device works for them.
But thank you very much for sharing your experience. I think you are a little bashful about exposing it because it would seem ridiculous and you are afraid to get your story smashed and embarrass you or prove you thinking, see I knew you wouldn’t believe me. No, I can’t promise anyone will believe you, and I can’t promise everyone will steer clear of taking your “proof” and belittling it, but it’s a good change when you stop carrying on one note, when you prove your humanity a little and engage in relevant discussions pertaining to religious experiences. Instead of make a wall around yourself, become “one of us” in humanity. You don’t have to stop believing, but you could make the effort to participate in discussions with your background and experiences, your human ones that guided you to your firm beliefs. Thanks. It does make a difference.
Thx for the response, but honestly you just kinda summarily dismissed it a bit, thats ok, no one really has a good explanation but I know exactly what happened. There’s too much specificity, too much relevance and timing, etc for it to be dismissed as a mere “coincidence” honestly.
But at least I tried, huh, lol.
I didn’t summarily dismiss it. I gave some thought and revealed a similar period in my life. If you didn’t give enough detail to make your story more special than others, I can’t infer any of that.
Some woman you know, “out of the blue,” called and said “the father” had told her you were doing X and Y, specific deeds you label sins without exposing what they were, which is fine. It’s not that I was there or anything, but it doesn’t seem implausible for me to believe someone she knows saw you and told her what you were up to, and that she could somehow legitimately say it was “god” who told her, because “god” put a witness in your area who gossiped back to her, and she intervened. If god directly intervened, you feel, it was through this woman and her unrevealed source for your mischief. God didn’t directly intervene though, some woman who knows you did. And if she says god told her, it only seems like she guessed correctly, what Felix said, a cold reading, or “god” intervened through someone who reported what they saw to her.
If it was a cold reading or a guess, you didn’t seem to investigate to the woman – how did you really find out and know to call me on that day? You took the word and didn’t question it, you backed off your bad lifestyle (whatever that may be). It’s also plausible for her to find out from someone where you were and of course assume by the location that you were likely engaged in activities associated with the location. These are not subtle. There are many ways in which this woman could have added 2 and 2 and gotten a correct guess on the X and Y you were up to, but it seems her assertion that it was god who told her had meaning for you, threatened you, and caused you to correct your behavior for your own good.
Please don’t tell me I’m summarily dismissing your story when I’m drawing it out. I’ve been a little impatient with you this morning, but I’m excited by you taking this big step. I give you credit for not backing away from it.
Thx Kodie, at least today, for once we can say we (both) tried and I do appreciate you and your reply, I really, really do. All the best.
i have a similar story john c
back in my colleger days, my dad , a preacher , out of the blue called me up and said god told him i was getting involved in the old mary j. he was right , i was involved in it.
but did god really tell him ? of course not
i ran into a friend of his about a week before he called me and i must have had red eyes because said friend of my pops went home and asked his son who is a close friend of mine if i was mary j enthusiast , his son denied any knowledge and then immediately informed me that his dad was asking questions.
so when my dad called and said god told him , i knew who exactly ‘god’ was
if i didn’t have said information from my friend i would’ve been inclined to consider the fact that maybe god actually talks to people
I’m still waiting Kodie? No response? That’s alright, there isnt any explanation for it other than the truth (Himself).
Response above. Sorry, I went out and got some snacks.
I’m glad that you took my response seriously. I appreciate that. There are pivotal experiences to any conversion – I doubt anybody has found faith out of boredom.
Often it is the experience of terrible distress and suffering, within oneself or others. It is hard to make sense of it. There’s gotta be someone to pick us up, and if we fall and can’t get up anymore, at least justice will be served after we die. It must. How could we go on living in the full awareness that the universe is completely disinterested in us, that we are an irrelevancy from a cosmic standpoint, no different from the next rock. The rock can’t think, why can we then? There must be some purpose to our ability to think and reason, to communicate, to love and care for others. It can’t just be about survival from one generation to the next.
All these unanswered questions, all these troubles. We shout them out into the void, and all we get back is cold silence. A silence that gets more deafening as the universe expands, drawing more of reality away from us by the second.
And then there’s this glowing light, a loving embrace. Yes, there is purpose. This universe, the warmth of the sun, the laughter of a child, the pure love in the thought in which you were created. From the image of the Father, in a perfect harmony synthesizing the pulsar’s light with the ant’s scuttle. For you. Shining through you, warming the world – making sense.
Dunning-Kruger effect is a very double-edged sword in this context.
Whoever asserts strongly is either actually right or not. Best possible result is a draw, worst is backlash.
Fair warning.
Who are you to say what is in the heart of another human being? Seriously?
He is a self appointed leader of his very own religion. A cult of one. Deranged and deluded, revelling in his ignorance. He claims not to be the same species as atheists, for whatever that is worth.
Not syaing what is in the heart of another, but rather Who. And that Who was not heard in that one. Takes one to know one, just an observation.
Oh the John C version of “not a true christian.”
How cute.
You think a cloak, robe and title is what qualifies one Bill? I dont think so.
One can’t be “qualified” to be something that doesn’t exist.
It’s like being qualified to be king of the sun.
The Bishop is an extremely spiritual man. He just has the intellegence not to swallow the Bible hook, line and sinker.
@ John C:
Ok, I actually watched the video. This “Bishop” is not a spiritual man, that is obvious from the get go. He has the title, the wardrobe, etc but not the Spirit Himself. There is another, rare quality, yes even “treasure” that he would impart that being His spirit in abundance within and this man is merely “religious”. He doesnt speak for God, doesnt have the mind of Christ, sorry.
I was thinking exactly the opposite, my friend.
I haven’t finished the video, much less the series of 4, so that’s a tentative suspicioun.
But even so, I think others are right to question whether or not you or I can properly ascertain the ‘heart’ of another human being. Such judgments must always qualified and stated humbly, if they should ever be made/stated at all.
BR…
We are all on a journey my friend, but not all at the same place on the trail if that makes any sense. I appreciate your comments, march on, be encouraged.
Out of curiosity, what specifically did you object to in the Bishop’s words?
Its not so much that I “object” to any particular thing he says BR. It’s more that I dont “hear” Christ in him, in his words. He is speaking out of the depth of his mind, his learned faculties. This “void” is what I hear, if that makes any sense to ya, I’m doing my best to answer your question, am trying. Its more what I “dont” hear, namey Him.
I understand what you’re saying, because I grew up speaking your language, if that makes sense. I do get what you’re saying almost all the time, especially hear.
But, if you say that you don’t hear “Him,” then it seems like you would be able to articulate what “He” actually does sound like. I’m not trying to badger you in any sense; I’m just trying to figure out what it is that you are or are not hearing in the Bishop that makes you object.
And I’m curious because there’s a lot that he says that I do agree with.
hear = here
Its ok to disagree, we are not “Godbots”, but each has a window of expression, no one man can be all things to all people all the time. Christ in you to the world as uniquely BR, Christ in me to the world as uniquely JC…
I appreciate you, and dont worry you’re not “badgering” me at all, I am honored to have an opportunity to speak with you even a little here today. Thx