by VorJack
āIām an atheist,ā I said.
āIām sorry,ā she said.
The conversation went absolutely nowhere after that.
Just Look at What You’re Missing
Pullquote: We should occasionally try to counter objections by explaining the advantages we found in atheism.
Her sentiment was honest. She found it distressing that I am an atheist, and felt that my lack of a god belief must mean that my life is somehow deprived. I can kind of understand. Religion was a large and important part of her life, and one that seems to give her a sense of fulfillment.
I used to feel the same way when I realized that other people didnāt automatically like my favorite band. How can anyone not like Dream Theater? This was the soundtrack for my life, and people kept asking me to turn it down. If theyād only just stand still and listen to the excessive guitar solos and pretentious-progressive lyricsā¦
So it occurs to me that we should occasionally try to counter by explaining the advantages we found in atheism. This could be a little tricky, since we usually focus on the simple fact that itās true. But more and more, weāre hearing from the extreme progressive Christians for whom religion is a type of poetry, and fact and fallacy are side issues.
We can respond by simply explaining that their poetry does nothing for us, just as Dream Theater does less than nothing for my wife. (But maybe if I just played it louderā¦) But this doesnāt seem to move the conversation forward. Instead, what are the positive changes that atheism has made in your life?
Stuff Happens
Pullquote: Thereās a plan in effect, someone up there is in control and things donāt just happen.
For myself, my de-conversion removed a lot of weight from my shoulders. As a theist, I had absorbed a common belief, most commonly expressed as āGod has a plan for everyone.ā Or more generically, āeverything happens for a reason.ā Thereās a plan in effect, someone up there is in control and things donāt just happen.
Many find this reassuring, but I didnāt. It led to a lot of second-guessing. Is this what Iām supposed to be doing? Is this the best result? Perhaps thereās something Iām supposed to be learning from this failure, or something I overlooked that should have prevented it. Whatās the plan, and what is my role in it?
What was that? I should ālet go and let God?ā Well, maybe āGod helps those who help themselves.ā Dueling aphorisms isnāt a very useful game. The gradual slide into liberal Christianity didnāt seem to help. Was I truly open to the love of God? If not, maybe that would explain why I was so depressed.
Thereās a nasty tendency to get caught up in self-blame here, and atheism helped me clear that away. Yes, sometimes things just happen. There really isnāt a roadmap for our lives, and not every time we find ourselves lost is our own fault. It may sound absurd, but sometimes the realization that life isn’t fair is consoling. I find life a lot easier to live now that I no longer look at every hardship as the carrier of a divine message
What lesson have you learned from naturalism? In what way has atheism made your life easier?
Deciding once for all that I was atheist (I’ve never been too much of a believer) made things simpler.
It removed a lot of intellectual burden and, to some extent, it made my view of the world simpler and cleaner.
I guess that as a physicist I appreciate the far more elegant model of reality…
Also, it made clear that I had the duty and the power to take responsibility of my life, with none else to respond for my actions but my conscience, and none to frighten me and judge me from above.
I found it comforting to be free to make moral descisions. I never supported the church’s more abhorrent decrees (slavery, homophobia, AIDS propogation, bible reading) but I always felt guilty because I knew I “should” support those things… but I also knew I didnt.
Realising there was no god lifted the weight from my shoulders. I didnt have to feel bad for not supporting evil practices!
My experience exactly. Also, related: feeling like there is an invisible camera in the sky, never being alone. And, that there are such a thing as forbidden thoughts.
What a profound relief.
*there are such things
Blasphemy! Everybody knows the One True Band is Led Zeppelin.
Mm, I tried to answer this, ended up with a couple (OK, a lot) of paragraphs. Maybe I’ll send my it to Daniel ;)
So I’ll just say that it was… enlightening. Because I never believed; I can see that now. It was freeing to finally, finally!, let go of the delusion and the entrapments of a belief I didn’t feel, not really. To let go of the pretense.
I find that I no longer need to be so hard on myself, that I’m not living up to some grand saintly ideal that was not really in me in the first place. My Catholic upbringing tended to want to box us all into a small set of behaviours that, frankly, are at variance with the vast spectrum of personalities in existence.
Atheism, for me, means that my bad times have become easier to deal with. With prayer, there is a tendency to focus on the wrong thing – a chimera, a mirage, a myth – and to hope that this phantom will cure all one’s ills. It’s nonsense, of course. It may have some sort of placebo effect in the short term, but it may actually result in the bad times being prolonged. Without prayer, I am quicker to focus on more earthly explanations, to listen more carefully to what experts say, to talk about it more with friends and to be open to new thinking. The cause and solution become centre-place, and not consigned to the margins while you discuss your problems with a non-existent entity whom, you suspect, may have it in for you.
And I feel just as much wonder as I did when I was religious about the enormity, majesty, complexity and beauty of nature.
And I don’t feel so worried about death. I don’t want to die, of course, but at least I don’t have that sword of guilt hanging over me about how well I performed in the great “entrance examination” of life. Isn’t life hard enough without having to add these feelings of unworthiness to the mix also?
I spent years struggling with guilt over my path to non-belief. In that time, I wrestled with many problems with religion that I simply could not reconcile with what I experienced in the real world. Once I finally accepted that I was an atheist, it was like being freed from a cage. My world became a larger place, and one of great wonder and beauty, such that I had never before experienced.
But it wasn’t all warm and squishy feelings either. I had lost my security blanket, too. Now, when I learned about the universe and the threats it contained to human life, I was actually a little scared. Black Holes, Asteroids, Gamma Ray Bursts…damn you Discovery Channel! Yet this liberation from deliberate ignorance was exhilarating. No longer did I have to end every question about the universe and life on Earth with “God did it”. I was free, at last, to consider possibilities. And that has been the greatest thing about letting go of the god delusion: possibilities.
I don’t have the answers to how the universe began. I don’t know if there’s life out there. I don’t know a lot of things. And I don’t have to. There’s definitely a poetry in looking out into the world, down the street, up into the sky, and not knowing. It sparks a curiosity in me makes me feel like a child again. I feel a connection to everything that I never felt as a Christian. What’s so great about atheism? It’s not the non-belief in a higher power. I can’t rule it out completely, but I know the current options are inadequate. It’s the opening of our eyes, hearts and minds to all the possibilities that the dogma of religion stifles for its own propagation. So, if I had to sum up why I’m an atheist in one word, it’d be “possibilities”.
Interesting. I should have read this before my question below.
I explicitly remember the night when I was lying on my bed and it hit me like a revelation: “You know, I don’t believe this stuff–and I don’t have to!” Talk about the ten-ton weights dropping from my shoulders! All at once I realized how I had spent the last few years of my Christian life trying desperately to convince myself that it was all true after all. And yet, it was impossible. The Christian faith is too self-evidently absurd.
Nowadays? I watch those people going to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night congregating with like-minded people doing just what I was doing: frantically trying to reassure themselves that it really is true. Strange how I don’t need things like that to maintain my unbelief.
So, now I don’t believe in gods anymore. Well, of course, there’s ABBA (Bender!)–the Holy Tetragrammaton; the Alpha and the Beta, the Beta and the Alpha. But that’s different. I’d explain it, but it’s kinda complicated….
You worship the Dancing Queen?
Actually, Dancing Queen’s not one of my favorites. The music itself has got to be one of the most inspired pieces ever knocked together by a popular composer. But the words? They don’t measure up.
But I can’t talk about ABBA here. I’m looking at the comment policy and it says no evangelizing. You poor, benighted souls will just have to discover the TRUTH on your own.
I prefer Fates Warning to Dream Theater, but enjoy them both, and have recently gotten into Liquid Tension Experiment and am liking their stuff.
I too feel the same way when someone doesn’t like a favorite, movie, book, band, TV show, etc. It’s funny, I’m starting to feel that way about skepticism. I’ll meet someone who appears perfectly nice and then find out they are a fundy, and think “How sad, you are missing so much!”.
mikespeir you nailed it for me “Strange how I donāt need things like that to maintain my unbelief.”
That has been my feeling as well, since my deconversion. I don’t have to sing songs or read books to reinforce my lack of belief. In fact I feel even freer to explore any belief system I like without thinking “this clashes with Christianity!”
I’ve never been especially religious but I did go through a lengthy phase of weed-smoking hippie pseudo-spiritualism, which is almost as bad.. I’d agree that for me it has been a huge relief to let go of the idea that “everything happens for a reason” and that we all have some path we are “supposed” to be on – which are of course not ideas that are unique to Christianity. Just really tremendously liberating. I think there’s also something wonderful about being able to let go of the total cognitive dissonance you have to hold onto to have that kind of belief – there are some things you just can’t let yourself question or think about too much, and man, does that get exhausting!
“āeverything happens for a reasonā”
I actually use that sometimes as a placebo. I know it is a placebo, but it forces me to search what is happening and learn from it. And it is a temporary relax so you can recover faster.
This was articulate and very helpful in my understanding your point of view. And thanks for helping me understand how expressed sympathy can be so condescending.
For what it’s worth, the sympathy I have often felt for my atheist friends focused more on the wounds they received from church and religious oriented family.
I know it’s a big question that probably can’t be answered in the context of this forum, but in your mind, is it possible there is a God apart from the the church or the Bible or religious crap in general?
I’m not trying to be critical or offensive, but it seems to me that atheism focuses on the lack credibility of the church. Even if all the objections about the church are true. And if it turned out that the Bible really isn’t inspired but written by a bunch of uninformed guys, couldn’t there still be room for the possibility of God?
This has probably been addressed before, but I’m still a little new to these discussions.
Also, I think some make some assumptions about me because of my name. I’m not looking to attack. Just wanting to join the dialogue.
My short answer is no. The failings of the churches I attended (many xtian denominations) led me to question the underlying assumption of a God. I realized early on there was no need for a supernatural explanation…reality had it covered pretty well. No churches, no God, no need.
Thanks for asking and for not being condescending.
You know, in church we throw that word, “supernatural” around a lot, and I’ve never been comfortable with it. It helps us cloak a lot of our ignorance and gives us an excuse not to dig for answers.
I’m a lot more focused finding truth. In your opinion, what is the connection between truth and reality? From my perspective, they cover a lot of the same ground.
Thanks for understanding.
To be completely intellectually honest, we have to maintain a position that there is always a possibility. IMO, however, the probability of any deity existing is low, and gets even lower every time humans discover something new regarding our world.
I feel that the evidence needed for the God of Christianity and the evidence needed for the gods of Hinduism, and the evidence for a generic non-religious god is all the same. There is evidence for none of those gods.
The focus on the church’s lack of credibility is simply a way to criticize those humans who claim to actually KNOW that a god exists. Then picking away at the credibility of church shows that the entity from which their belief was learned was not a credible source of information. And, like I said above, the possibility is there sure, but the probability is stupendously low, IMO.
āā¦,couldnāt there still be room for the possibility of God?ā
Then youāll have to explain what you mean by āGodā. Remove the Bible and then what do you have left?
What do I have left? How about wonder? It seems that though we come down on different sides of the issue we both share a curiosity, even a passion about what’s true and what’s not.
Could there be a higher being that we have no concrete awareness of (yet). Is there room to wonder if there is meaning beyond our present understanding (excuse me if I start using poetic language).
There’s been some discussion about how rejecting Christianity opens up possibilities. Well, can we consider the possiblity of God?
I know I’m not offering proof, or even a convincing argument. But must we shut the door on the idea?
Again, sorry if these are old questions that others have already addressed.
Well… why wouldn’t wonder be part of the universe itself, rather than a separate entity worthy of calling “god”?
Of course, there will always be things beyond what we know, but anything as… grand… as a deity would have to have left some hint on reality at the level we can see now.
And that’s the thing… Atheism opens up possibilities, but not all of those possibilities have the same probability. God is one of those with a low probability.
Okay, that’s almost like a mirror question.
The thing about God is that I can never get around the fact that ultimately my belief is a choice, not a proven fact. So I’ll never win the argument decisively.
What would this god’s purpose be, if it existed? Keep redefining god until he’s useless, and what do you need him for, exactly? I guess it just seems to me that your question, does god exist even if the stories are invented, and how do things work if there is an unknown god – what is the purpose of worshipping it and believing in it, what does it do that’s not explained or could be or will be explained? Some time in the past month or two, someone posted a sermon by a guy whose name I’ve forgotten.. that’s helpful, but he was talking about the tsunami and conjuring up some kind of god that could let that happen and what he’s possibly there for – which I have to say is kind of pointless. Keep redefining what god could mean that doesn’t make itself known or stop bad things from happening. What do you need that god for and what is it about the belief in god that no matter what happens, you can figure out a way that all makes sense? He’s still defined by humans, which is good enough as not existing.
How is belief a choice? In the end of my faith I tried with all my heart to believe in God, but I just couldn’t. And I don’t mean the simple, white bearded old guy in the sky God. I wanted to believe in God in whatever form he would take. I got nothing.
I meant no condemnation in what I said. I was talking about just me. And I certainly don’t wish to make light of your struggle. For what it’s worth I think you show a lot of courage and integrity.
Thanks, Clergy Guy. I didn’t think you were making light of anything. I’ve just been told many times, even by very close friends, that I’m choosing not to believe in God, but I just don’t understand how one can just choose to believe in something. I think it would be pretty cool if dragons existed, but I can’t choose to believe in them.
I don’t agree that belief is a choice. You can choose to SAY you believe, but what you actually believe is a different thing entirely. I said for many years that I believed in God and Christianity, but inside me there was real skepticism and pervasive doubt. A little honest inquiry led me to come to terms with the fact that I didn’t believe at all, and was just saying it because I thought I was supposed to. I suspect the same thing is happening with a lot of people, but many of them can’t deal with the internal guilt and shame that their religion has burdened them with, or fear the social consequences. So they just keep saying they believe, hoping they can fake it ’til it becomes reality. I believe what I believe. I don’t have a choice in that.
“Well, can we consider the possiblity of God?”
I consider it the same way that I consider the possibility that through Brownian Motion enough usable oxygen could evacuate from my surroundings causing me to asphyxiate.
I’ll take that as a qualified no.
Take it how you want to. Most believers already do that.
We “know” through through probability and Particle Motion that it could happen.
Compared to the total lack of any evidence for a “god” or even a need for one, its still more “knowledge” than you can profess.
“Take it how you want to.”
Sorry, I was just trying to be cute, not critical.
It seems as though you are assuming that all atheists say “there cannot be a god or gods.” Some may take this position, however, IME, most do not. I don’t get the feeling that anyone here is saying “a god is impossible.” As I said before, that would intellectually dishonest. Atheism deals with matters of belief, “atheists don’t believe in a god(s).” On the other hand, agnosticism deals with knowledge. None of us truly know if a god exists, the theist believes, and the atheist does not.
Before we go dealing with whether a god exists, we need a working definition. There needs to be some concrete hypothesis (this is one argument against the Christian god, everyone has their own definition) to evaluate. This is assuming we are going to evaluate with a scientific approach. If we want to approach only with emotions, we don’t need anything.
“Well, can we consider the possiblity of God?”
So I’ll ask again what do you define as “God”. How do you expect the question to be answered when you can’t even define what this new “God” is?
Well, my definition of God is fairly complicated and lengthy and I don’t really want to make a full presentation here. I was just trying to talk about the broad concept.
Someone else wrote that intellectually, one cannot rule out the possibility of there being a god, but he didn’t think it was probable, and I thought that was an intelligent answer.
If you think my question is too vague, perhaps you’re right.
What you saying still does make any sense. If you’re “rejecting Christianity” and therefore the Christian defintion of god then what defintion of god should we consider a possibility?
I’m sorry I’m not making sense. I’m having a hard time understanding where you’re going with the question. Anything I want to say in response merely repeats what I’ve already said and how others have responded.
The question isn’t trying to go anywhere except if you ask people to keep open the possibility of X existing then you must define what X is assuming that you’re rejected the Christian defintion of god.
“Well, my definition of God is fairly complicated and lengthy and I donāt really want to make a full presentation here. I was just trying to talk about the broad concept.”
There have been many thousands of defintions of gods. How can I accept the possibilty of something when you can’t even define what that something is?
I think the only thing my specific definition of God would do is give you something else to shoot at. But I’ll take the bait.
My specific concept of God is the Christian version. But there are more than thousands of variances of that. The truth is that I have a hard time formulating a narrow concept of God.
My original point is that you can reject my concept of God, but it doesn’t disprove the possibility of some kind of God. Others have already recognized what I’ve said and replied to it.
I have to go to work now, so don’t feel like I’ve abandoned you if i can’t get right back to you to answer your next question.
āI think the only thing my specific definition of God would do is give you something else to shoot at. But Iāll take the bait.ā
Itās not bait at all. Youāve posted something but so far have been unable to say what this something is that I should acceptable the possibility of. How to you expect me to answer the question of can I accept the possibility of something that you canāt even define?
āMy original point is that you can reject my concept of God, but it doesnāt disprove the possibility of some kind of God.ā
Which doesnāt answer the question at all. How can I reject the possibility of even āsome kind of Godā unless you are able to define it? Your question is not answerable unless you can do this. Youāve used the term āsome kind of Godā so please define what this is. If you cannot or do not wish to then just say so.
If there is a god, it has yet to define itself and its needs, reasons, etc. Every concept of god is invented and defined by people, so I really don’t understand the need to believe something you tell yourself is true. It is all so imaginary and arrogant. I mean, if there were a god, I think it would be quite remarkable for it to let humankind go about making up silly rumors while it there, all powerful and all knowing, exists and does nothing. If it’s not all powerful and all knowing, then for crying out loud, what is it worth? When you’re defining god or taking a definition on faith from someone else, you’re discounting other definitions, you are as atheist to those definitions as I am to yours. I mean, this is simple – and I don’t need to know how some Christian defines god if he already admits to everyone that it is his definition and not god’s definition which god personally told him is true. Everyone who believes in god has either believed what they were told or sought a definition that resonated with their own intentions of behavior.
I don’t know what people do that for, or how they don’t see that that’s what they’re doing and just stop pretending to themselves.
Jabster, I’ll give it one more try. For the purpose of discussion, I meant to widen the possibility of God beyond the Christian boundaries. My point was that one can object the entire Christian religion and culture, but that does not disprove the existence of God.
You want my definition of God? Not sure I can give something so concrete. And I’m really not trying to convert someone here (remember, you asked). But it lies within the frame work of Christian theology. I believe God is a creator. I believe in the divinity of Christ. I believe in a Holy Spirit. And I believe in a resurrection after death.
Now you can attack tthe credibility of my beliefs, and some people are quite astute at this. Say for the sake of the argument, someone convinces me that my perception is not correct, or simply rejects my perception of God. My point is that I could be wrong but it doesn’t necessarily follow that there could be no possibility of God.
I believe Nathan (and others) said, that intellectually one would have to acknowledge the possibility of god but in his opinion it was not likely, some said it was HIGHLY unlikely. While we have a difference of opinion here, he answered the question quite articulately.
Now, I have made my point (once again) and I have also tried to answer your specific question. If you’re not satisfied with it, all I can do is say I did the best I could in a short space. You can press me some more, and I don’t blame you if your not satisfied, but that’s really all I have to say about this point.
Are you sure you are not confusing your definition of god with the fear of Death and the Hope that there is something lasting?
Most of the people I’ve talked to about their individual concept of god, it boiled down to those two things, Fear and Hope.
“Now, I have made my point (once again) and I have also tried to answer your specific question.”
No you haven’t … I’ll repeat again — if you want me to believe in the possibilty of X then you have to define what X is. There are thousands of defintions of god please state what X is.
Yes I have. No you haven’t. Yes I have. No you haven’t.
We seem to be at an am impasse. I feel some frustration at not having communicated clearly, but I don’t know what else say.
Clergy Guy, I find that an impasse is almost always inevitable. As I chat with theists there is always a point where our world views are at such odds that we cannot possibly agree. When I was a Christian I never tried to prove God’s existence and as an atheist I don’t try to disprove it.
It’s a really simple question if you want to ask me to believe in the possibility of a god then you have to define some sort of attributes of this version of god. If you ask about the Norse gods, the Greek gods, the Christian god or the Muslim god I can give you an answer because there is at least some definition, even if somewhat vague and contested, of what this actually means. Using the term god on its own means pretty much nothing to me so how do you expect me to answer the question about believing the possibility of a god. Even if the term did mean something to mean there is very little chance that it means the same to you so how is it even possible to discuss the topic?
You may think that just saying god somehow makes a clear definition, I don’t. I was never brought up with religion and so have no real concept of what god is except within the framework of what other people believe god to be. To talk about something really does require terms to be agreed on before hand.
Whatever your definition, we disagree about whether it is worthy of worship.
We can consider the possibility of God (I take that to mean the christian god, and probably the particular god of your particular sect).. but only if we also consider the possibility of all gods and godesses, past and present and future (just because a religion hasn’t been invented yet doesn’t mean it isn’t true!). Can you explain why you disregard Isis or Astarte or any random god?
Hi Clergy Guy. I’ve been enjoying your contributions here.
My moving to atheism had at least two major parts. The first was leaving Christianity. Like others above that step produced a lot of subjective relief as I was no longer having to juggle the deep contradictions. For instance, I was a pastor and as such expected to be a bulwark of faith while my faith was in fact melting away.
The second step was dealing with ‘Mystery!’. I came to understand that this wonderment is not adjudicated in any way by positing theoretical gods (theology). When the after glow of Mystery! passes, the mystery of existence remains. As a skeptic and atheist, I will follow the evidence as best I can including acceptance of gods actually evidenced to exist.
Let me ask you this. How would this universe be different if your god did not exist?
The truth is that I’ve never considered that question and I can’t seem to come up with a quick answer. It’s like I can’t seperate the two.
That’s all I have for now.
O, I wanted to comment on your having doubts when you were a pastor and were expected to be a bulwark of faith. I’ve been right there with you and I know it’s a miserable and lonely place.
We shouldn’t have to be so alone. We ought to be able to talk about our struggles as they occur and not just afterward.
Yes, a burden no one should have to carry. The last several weeks of my pastorate were the most miserable days of my life as there were many vulnerable people (several possibly suicidal) looking to me for strength.
I remember similar things. I had all kinds of things written down here, then erased them. Suffice it to say it was a rough gig.
“Could there be a higher being that we have no concrete awareness of (yet). ”
It is called “the universe” and it is not a being.
But from romantic sense sometimes it sounds very cool to think about a magical beeing out there that helps us just like Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings. Sometimes it is good to escape reality and dream a fictional story.
I am not an atheist (necessarily). I am an agnostic. It would be more accurate to say I am anti-religious. It would be even more accurate to say I am anti-lying. I moved away from Christianity not because I don’t believe there is a God but because the Bible misrepresents itself and on top of that the morality it espouses is barbaric and if the myth it advocates is true 98 % of the people ever born are going to suffer eternal torment. Why would I desire Christianity to be a reality? It’s probably concealing rather than revealing the truth about “God”. And that goes for the other so-called God religions as well.
nomad, there are a whole lot of Christians throughout history who read the ‘myth’ and come away with universal salvation; they get it from Paul and Jesus.
What about the corollary: If you don’t believe the myth you go to Hell. Isn’t this in the contract? There are a whole lot of non-__________s (insert any of the God religions). All of the non_________s are going to Hell, according to the ______________ (insert appropriate holy book). How do these “universal salvationists” come to such a conclusion?
I have to disagree with your statement that a lot of christians though history have read the bible and gotten salvation from it. I’m not sure of when but it wasn’t until sometime in the 1900′s that 50% of Americans could even read. I doubt that most christians in history have read much of anything. Even today many surveys suggest that close to 50% of American christians haven’t fully read the bible.
Or, if they did, they selective-forget the bad parts; the begats, the stonings, the incest, et al.
” they get it from Paul and Jesus.”
Where? How so?
Spirit…pure, undefiled Truth. That’s what is “left”.
By “Truth”, I assume you mean the existence of god, the divinity of jesus, etc. These things have only been “revealed” to you via the second and sometimes third hand accounts found in biblical writings. Thus, without the bible, you wouldn’t have anything to attest to the “truth” in the first place. That makes your comment completely incoherent.
No, it takes God to reveal God, only He can reveal Himself to a man. Studying the “bible” doesnt do it, that’s not the “way”.
Even if he did exists, without the bible you wouldn’t even be aware of his existence.
No, the “bible” had nothing to do with how I came to know Him. He is not the bible.
John -
I just don’t quite understand. I wonder if you can explain it. You said, “No, the ābibleā had nothing to do with how I came to know Him (Jesus).” So – really – how did you know him, even what His name is and the stories and promises? If you really did not get it from reading the Bible (or being told by someone else who did) where did you learn about him? There are no independent texts. If it just showed up in your heart it’s weird that it matches the book that millions use for their religion.
If you really have some sort of answer to this question, great. but I won’t pretend that I think you do. I wonder what you think you are doing here? You make this statements that are obviously false from anyone else’s viewpoint – why? How did you think anyone here would react to that?
I’m sorry – feeding the troll. But once in a while I start to try to figure out what they are thinking and what for Dog’s sake is going on over there. It is a scary place.
I
Mary Lynne…dont worry, they all know me (and love me, ha) and I’m no troll. To answer your question, God is Spirit. He draws us by His spirit from within, from our spirit (the middle of the middle of you). There is no mistaking it when it’s really Him, its a intense “pull” from a “life” not your own, It’s an invitation to join in with that same Life.
God is not religious, He is spirit. All the very, very best.
No.
According to christianity, God revealed God through people, whom he commanded to write scripture. So, God decided that you (that’s you) should come to know him through scripture (that’s the bible). You only “know” God because of scripture, which resulted in the religion, that you claim has nothing to do with God.
Michael R…let me ask you a question my friend. Since you know a little about (the topical, textual content) of said “bible” what did Jesus say that God was in John Ch 4? He said that God was Spirit right? Not “a” spirit, but Spirit. Tell me, can you read “spirit”? Neither can I.
Your “Christian” experience was a religious experience tied to rules dogma, etc. Shedding religion (which is what you did and wisely so) is actually a stepping stone to knowing the Truth (Himself). Surprises are wonderful things, and there may yet be a couple headed your way…I wouldnt be “surprised”. All the very best.
Not!Vorjack, that is I, would answer:
Possible? Yes. I concede the possibility that I am wrong. Possible it is; how likely, is another matter. For instance, it is possible there’s a world out there where all the dead people are reborn (extra cookie points for whoever catches the reference). Do I find the existence of such a world likely? Not really, but it is possible.
So possibility is tied to likelihood.
But then you would have to define what kind of god we’re talking about, because depending on how specific – or how vague – the definition, the more likely or unlikely I will find it exists.
(And of course, irrespective of existence/non-existence, it doesn’t automatically follow that I would love or worship it.)
Example:
Do I find it likely that there is a personal god, intimately interest in my thoughts, pains, woes, hopes and dreams, exists? Not really. My experience – which is all I have, after all – and the experience of those I know and cherish, many of them religious in some way or another, does not make me think it likely.
Do I find it likely that there is an impersonal god, who orchestrated the universe, who, all too humanly, will concede favors and grant wishes on a trade basis? I find it marginally more likely than the previous one.
Do I find it likely that there is, not a god, but a force, an energy, a life-source, that permeates all that is and will be, much like Tao? Well, it’s more likely than a personal or impersonal god.
Do I believe any those things? No. I don’t believe in Odin, Jehova or the Tao. Possible they are, likely, perhaps not, but believe I do not.
What I do believe – in a sense – in a way:
That there is an universe, out there, that is as vast as it is complex and as complex as it is infinitely beautiful; that this is independent of thought, will or desire from any living creature; that it has risen because it had to (much like in our world hydrogen and oxygen combine into water – because so it happens); that is as improbable as anything is improbable; that we have no purpose, no guiding hand, no absolute truth or moral or lawmaker to tell us right from wrong (because there are no absolute rights or wrongs) but that which we create; that out there, there are thousands, millions, billions of lifeforms, all competing, breeding, dying – or doing whatever they do – that we may never find; that we are alone but for those like ourselves – all living things; that intelligence is not the be-all, end-all of existence; that one day, we and the universe we reside in will wink out of existence, just as easily as it winked into existence; that we are nothing but that which we make ourselves believe we are – no plaything of the gods, no puppet in a divine stream of consciousness, no children or avatars of minds beyond, but simply us, apes in the speck of a blueish planet in an unremarkable solar system in an unremarkable galaxy in a more-than-remarkable universe.
That is all. Or almost all.
I appreciate the indepth thoughts. I’m finding it hard to grab hold of any one thing you said and chewing on it without trivializing the whole, so I guess I’ll just think on it a while. Thanks.
I write way too much. Too much, I do.
Dontcha worry, luv. I’m glad to be helpful. <3
Warning!
You might lose your faith, but get something back that is far more rewarding :-)
āā¦couldnāt there still be room for the possibility of God?ā
You may be neglecting the fact that there is also room for doubt. As an atheist I see doubt as an open invitation to inquiry, even when it concerns my own core principles and values. I strongly suspect that religious people, especially those who have made a belief in God central to their lives, see such doubt as a threat or a sin inspired, perhaps, by Satan. Curiosity, I believe, is an aspect of human nature and doubt is the driving force behind it.
I don’t just strongly suspect that, I’m sure you’re right about many religious people being threatened by doubt and questions.
And I agree that entertaining possibilities means considering both the existence and the nonexistance of God.
An atheist will believe in a god if suddenly a god pops up and proves that he is indeed a god by doing stuff that only a god could do. I want to go inside the sun unprotected. I want to see Earth from the moon unprotected. I want to see the beginning of the universe and the end of it. I want to meet a real Dr Who with his Tardis and travel for a timeā¦
An Atheist have no need of the existing of a god in his life and universe but that does not mean he will not accept a god if there is really one out there
I also bet that if you put a real Jezus and a fake Jezus in front of an Atheist and a creationist, the creationist will be drawn to the fake one that shows how to walk on water. For him that is enough. An Atheist will test BOTH of them and will surely see through the fake one.
I have seen many religious people tending to follow false prophets because they are blinded in their faith.
You might also consider the fact that other animals lack the ability to doubt. They can only accept the evidence of their senses at face value and act accordingly. Thatās why they fall so easily into the snares and traps of human purpose; thatās why they lie contentedly at our feet or carry us around on their backs or go so willingly to slaughter. Similarly, when humans negate their ability to doubt, they too can fall victim to human predation: told to believe, they will believe without doubt; told to hate, they will hate without doubt; told to kill, they will kill without doubt.
Not to be a wet blanket, but animals have the ability to doubt.
Have you ever been playing fetch with a dog, and only pretended to throw the ball? Dogs doubt. You can see it in action.
Animals (including humans) respond to stimuli.
Dogs have been selectively bred to respond to humans and are very conditional.
When you pretend to throw the ball they are learning a new set of conditions.
I’m not sure that they doubt in a rational way, but we have created them as helpers and companions so they do reflect many of our own attributes in their behaviors.
There is an evolutionary advantage to doubt. Not having the ability to doubt would be a weakness that evolution could easily solve. Those who cannot doubt would die more often than those who can.
I find the idea of pack hunters lacking the ability to doubt to be silly. When an animal considers challenging for leadership of a pack and backs down, thats doubt. It happens and it is observable.
Doubt is a thought process.
The only thing that can be observed is behavior.
An animal backing down is responding to stimuli in a more advantageous way. If it pursues a fight that it cannot win or gain advantage from, then the animal possesses a set of attributes that reduce its chance to survive and/or reproduce.
Doubt is a thought process, and animals have the ability to think..
Human exceptionalism isn’t convincing. I understand that some believe that we should not assume that animals have our thoughts or feelings, but that adds a layer of complexity that is unnecessary. Doubt can and has been demonstrated in scientific settings. If an animal gives all the external behaviors of doubt, we can either call it doubt or start talking about animals as if they had an entirely different set of thoughts and emotions that humans are incapable of yet have the same external signs.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/502197/
If we have to pretend animals don’t feel doubt when their behavior would indicate it, then we will also have to assume that behavior that resembles fear is not actually fear but something entirely different yet which gives those same indicators of fear. Some wish to claim that a chimpanzee mother holding her child is not feeling love, despite showing the same external signs of love as a human mother. Why make that kind of assumption when we have evidence of how closely we are related to chimps, and we feel this emotion? Why assume a discontinuity rather than assume that brains evolved with these emotions long before humans existed? A quote from the link below:
http://redapes.org/zoos/do-animals-have-emotions/
Regarding the second link:
The scant scientific information there is being used with a great deal of opinion to generate human response to support their cause.
Regarding the first:
You could set up a similar experiment that gave a variety of mating choices and conclude that animals feel love based on their reproductive choices. Measuring responses is a very different thing than labeling those responses as emotional feelings.
The most relevant suggestion is “that some animals have functional features of, or parallels to, human conscious metacognition.” This certainly doesn’t suggest equality.
Ā« but it seems to me that atheism focuses on the lack credibility of the church Ā«
Not really. Actually atheism only exists as a pushback to those religious people like creationists that are trying to infiltrate our lives and convert us. Atheists actually donāt care about religion at all, only when we started to realize that religion is being pushed on us in a covert way we started to focus on the churches flaws.
These atheist forum would not exist if those creationist were out there.
Absolutely not. It’s the lack of credibility (plausibility, truth, supporting evidence…) of any supernatural or otherwise unfalsifiable claim whatsoever. Religions just make a lot of them.
Your question unfortunately doesn’t allow for those of us who were raised secular and were never “hurt” by the church. That sounds suspiciously like the old “you must be mad at god” argument. Some of us have *never* believed in god. There’s nothing to be mad at or hurt by, thereby nothing for which to pity us.
What I really hear a lot of is criticism of the church–perhaps it’s not anger, although some of it seems to come from legitimate wounds. In any case, discussing the credibility of Christianity does not necessarily address the question of the existence of God. I guess that’s the point I’ve been trying to make.
There have been several people here who have addressed that issue with well developed thoughts.
I think the biggest relief for me was realizing that I could stop making excuses for god. I could stop trying to fit reality and my faith into a working system. The God of the bible didn’t both create and condone sexism, slavery, killing, rape, torture, starvation and confusion anymore. Because he didn’t exist.
Now, instead of coming up with convoluted arguments (that I always knew were astounding feats of mental gymnastics and not honest) I can rest–knowing I don’t have to try to reconcile things that cannot be reconciled. The truth really has set me free.
In my church there was a lot of prosa…, prosy…, witnessing. We were expected to go up to strangers, assuming that they were evil and under the spell of Satan, and lay our faith on them. I could never get over the feeling that there was something fundamentally rude about this and I was always embarrassed.
When I became an atheist…
- punishment and hell were gone, as was reward, which was almost as great a relief
- people were people, not evil minions of Satan trying to destroy my faith
- life was beautiful – not a struggle between God and Satan
- wonder became a big part of my life – no small thing
- no more force fitting faith and reality
- let go and let God changed to live and let live
- I became responsible
- all was not written, life bloomed before me
- no more embarrassing fairy tales
- so MUCH less fear
- I gained a sense of personal presence and immediacy. I could affect things in my world by choice
- I embraced life rather than pretending to long for it to be over
- life started making sense
All of these things brought me joy and peace.
Yes, that is the effect of discarding “religion”, ie oppressive and meaningless rules, rituals and the like. That is the first step on the path of liberty. Who did Christ have the most trouble with in the NT? The religious folk right. Our problem? We just didnt know that we were one of them.
What wonderful discovery is next? That “God” is not religious? That He is love, light and truth Itself? Truth always portends to increased measures of freedom, of liberty. And since He IS the Truth, He would that we be completely….FREE.
You be free.
Your history John shows that you are ashamed of your proselyting too. You denied being here to proselytize in one of the first topics I saw you commenting on, yet anyone who has experienced your comments would conclude that you are in fact here to witness and proselytize. This shame led to your lies.
If you don’t accept the christian religion, the god you claim to worship vanishes into thin air. Outside of your supposed holy book, what writings or evidence can you supply for the existence of a christian god? You wouldn’t even know what this god was without the bible and organized christianity to tell you about it.
“He is love, light and truth Itself”
You got that from the Bible.
So, an honest answer to the question “Remove the Bible and then what do you have left?” would involve you admitting that without that text, you have no christian god.
Miss Poppy Hussein Dixon – beautiful and well said. My thoughts exactly. Our minds are designed as children to believe almost anything taught to us – this is a trait of survival. Don’t go over that cliff – stay out of the street – don’t touch that it’s hot – God is watching every single thing you do so you better be good or feel extreme shame and guilt etc. It is extremely hard to overcome our programming. You either become devout, anti-religious, or indifferent toward religion. I became indifferent where as most of my brothers and sisters are devout.
John C – your constant proclaimations that God is love etc. simply does not fit with reality. A friend of mine watched as a 3 year old boy’s neck was slit open after a drunk driver crashed into an ice cream shop while this boy was licking an ice cream cone on his birthday. The blood from his wound spurted all over his mother’s face as he slowly died a very painful death. Your “God” did not love this boy. Your “God” may make YOU feel good or give YOU comfort or make YOU feel you’re right but that does not mean that YOU are right or that your “God” loves anything. Please spare me your warm and fuzzy and cuddly “God”. It is your own personal “God” and nothing more.
http://www.denverpost.com/allewis/ci_10431472?source=bb
I like the comments above about being free from the requirement to try to believe something that I just don’t believe. That alone feels like being “born again” to some degree.
“But more and more, weāre hearing from the extreme progressive Christians for whom religion is a type of poetry, and fact and fallacy are side issues. We can respond by simply explaining that their poetry does nothing for us, just as Dream Theater does less than nothing for my wife.”
Another response to that type of response, religion as a type of poetry, is to just appreciate they have a religion that is a kind of poetry, and be able to discuss what you find beautiful in your life, what is our own poetry. In that case I don’t see the need to draw the lines, as long as there is not an implicit requirement on their part for me to believe the same thing.
“āIām an atheist,ā I said.
āIām sorry,ā she said.
The conversation went absolutely nowhere after that.”
I usually get the classic “I’ll pray for you”; or sometimes something even more condescending. It is very annoying…
The classic response to “I’ll pray for you” is, of course, “I’ll think for you”
I want to practice this in case anyone ever says that to me. I don’t want to get caught off guard and just gape at them.
If anyone says they are sorry that I’m an atheist, I will say as loudly as is socially acceptable in the environment, “Are you kidding?? Why would you be sorry?? It’s GREAT!!!!!” I might go on about how it’s the greatest thing that happened to me and it’s given me real purpose to my life.
Some (most?) theists hold the view that life without god has no meaning. I thought that at one point, but when I finally decided not to believe in fairies (or the like), I did not feel tiny and alone in the universe. Nor did I feel like my life was pointless. Instead I realized that without any god playing me like a puppet, I could own my life! I could do anything (within the laws of physics). I could define the meaning of my life to be whatever I wanted. It also motivated to fully take advantage of my life, and try to experience as much of the world as I could. Atheism — perhaps counterintuitively for theists — gave me an intense hunger for life. It also gave me better self-esteem because I realized that I was a good person, because I wanted to be.
Most importantly for me, was the appreciation for the world that Atheism gave me. Instead of an imperfect and highly flawed creation, the universe and we humans, are a complete “mistake”. Look at how beautiful this universe now is and look at how far we apes have come _without any help_.
I wrote a list of advantages of nonbelief here: http://personman.com/7-advantages-of-nonbelief
My number one reason was that I no longer have to wonder why an omnipotent God allows terrible things to happen. There’s no one at the helm directing all of this, so we have to help each other.
“counter by explaining the advantages we found in atheism”
for a lot of us the advantages are exactly what they hold dear (church, praying, shame, guilt etc)
Next time ask her this: Does anything happen outside of God’s will?
No
So it is his will I’m an atheist. We all have different callings in life.
I also like to throw in the question: Would God make anything in vain?
No
Then what are all those billions of galaxies for, even the ones we can’t see?
they are for the making of the pretty pictures with the Evilutionists’ space telescopes
I grew up as an atheist (My mum can remember me coming home indignant from Thursday morning religious instruction, aged seven), so I don’t have the same comparison that others here have. For me, atheism is simply natural. I can’t imagine trying to contort my thoughts, emotions, beliefs, and opinions into the little pigeon-holes religion has for its followers. In particular, being a philosophy student, I’ve been encouraged to develop my morality from scratch, from first principles, and always ask myself why I hold to any particular view. Belief in a deity would completely warp that kind of effort, which would basically ruin my life because there’s nothing I love more than trying to get to the absolute root of things, and for a religious person, the ultimate root of all things is, dogmatically and truly, a permanent mystery. By definition, we can’t know God, and so God being at the root of all things would make it impossible to ask the questions I most like to try to answer (especially with all the different accounts of His preferences we have)
A lot that’s been said here fits for me.
As an amateur astronomer and working in the aerospace industry it made my thinking so much clearer when I didn’t have to follow up the reality of space and the universe with an “amen”
I clearly remember the first time I said out loud “I don’t believe in GOD!”
I had thought it for many years, but there was that little nugget in my psyche that just couldn’t say it out loud………………as if
What if someone said to me, “I believe in god,” and I said to them, “I’m sorry.” ?
I’ve always been an atheist and I’ve never even thought to say that to someone. It seems theists are painted a picture of atheism by other theists such that they think there is something wrong with our thinking. We’re supposed to be tolerant, but admitting you are an atheist to someone who believes in god seems to expose some sort of wish to them. I don’t believe in god, I try and try and try but he’s just not speaking to me! Well, hon, that ain’t it.
I wouldn’t know how to explain to a theist what the advantages are. I don’t fully understand what they think the disadvantages are. I mean, it is just difficult for me to get in the head because I’ve never had that way of thinking, what exactly do they suppose the disadvantages of atheism are? That I don’t have a relationship with god… and they are certain they do. That I will go to hell… which I’m certain I won’t. That my life has a big void in it, which I’m telling you, it doesn’t. I don’t know what’s so hot about believing in god and foolish things that it’s so awful to be me. Nobody has ever said they were sorry I am an atheist, either. I do sort of feel that chill run over the conversation, but it’s along the lines of where did you grow up, how many brothers and sisters do you have, your last name, is that German?, and hey what religion are you.
I’m an atheist.
Silence.
Then probably some other inane chatter ice-breaking get-to-know-you stuff. I think asking someone’s religion is kind of a forward question, which is why I don’t hear that question very often, so basically nobody knows I’m an atheist. Hey, it’s obvious, see, I don’t wear a necklace.
“What if someone said to me, āI believe in god,ā and I said to them, āIām sorry.ā ?”
This has happened to me. I was grumpy about it.
I would think they’d just say it louder.”CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?”
Being an atheist means not having to live up to an impossible standard; it means my one physical life on this planet, and the relationships and experiences I have, is infinitely more valuable than the one I’m promised might be there; it means ridding myself of as many false beliefs as possible, so that the remaining beliefs inform responsible, meaningful actions; it means living looking forward, into an explorable future, rather than dwelling on an ancient, unverifiable past.
Man, being a good Christian involved things like praying, tithing, going to church….things I never, ever did. I felt guilty over it, like I was supposed to be doing those things to live a good life and not have God angry at me. Atheism has since pulled that weight over my shoulders, and now I can even laugh at people who do those things. I know it’s what a good Christian should do, but the whole thing, from the outside looking in, is laughable.
“No, it takes God to reveal God, only He can reveal Himself to a man. Studying the ābibleā doesnt do it, thatās not the āwayā.” Ahh, John Calvin, now we know what the “C” stands for. ;-)
Mike, no I’m like the farthest thing from Calvinism, at the very other end of the spectrum my friend…all the best.
I am eternally grateful to my parents for allowing my sisters and I to find our own paths. Interestingly enough well all ended up Agnostic or Atheist.
I can’t imagine the struggle some have to go through when they “lose religion” So, for me atheism has always made my life easier.
I didnāt know that I was an atheist, until I got this name : Atheist. After that I discovered that there were people that actually believed that Earth was 6000 years old!
I did get Catholic education but never liked it; it did not make any sense at all. The Old Testament was a very cool book, it had some adventure but the new one was boring. I never understood the Jesus love us all message. Especially when they started with Jesus is love, god is love, and nothing made any sense.
I am so happy that I am a atheist! I really experience life to the fullest. I feel that I have control over my own destiny and that no men in the sky with a beard have that is going to punish me. I love astronomy and quantum mechanics and I love the wonders of the universe that is far more wonderful than the limited universe that a intelligent design could create. I also feel that I do not die when my atoms are spread on the Earth when I physically die. My atoms are on a journey to become another interesting life form, a stone a child a dog or maybe sent on a journey across spaceā¦ I also feel very old since my atoms were forged at the beginning of the universe and combined in violent explosions of the first stars that make up my complex chemicals.
Life with a god would be so limiting so reduced that I could not feel the wonders of the universe anymore. I probably would not have know that the earth is not flat.
Life as an atheist is far more wonderful than life as a believer! I experience life as it really is, not a fictional life invented by some fictional writer.
Of course life where you define our own path can be very scary to some people. So hiding into a fictional life like someone scared to go outside his house could be logical or those.
I never realized how wonderful my life was until I saw how limiting the life of religious people was.
For me religious life would be like sitting in a house without doors and windows and only one TV with 1 channel talking about the word of god all day long. All they have to do is have faith that what is on TV is reality. Weird!
Atheism makes my life better because I can live my life with common sense. I don’t have to live it based on information in 2,000 year old literature that includes a god/hero figure ala Heracles, Theseus, et al
My process of discarding god-concepts started with me realizing that the notion of the “devil” was superstitious nonsense that had really messed me up. Once I let that go, the fear of punishment, hellfire and damnation and such diminished significantly. Then I began to wonder if I had gotten rid of the idea of the devil, then why would I need an idea of god?
When I figured out that the notion of god was nonsensical and there probably wasn’t a god or gods, I felt like I had finally grown up. I can be a good person without metaphysical carrot or stick, and this life is much, MUCH more enjoyable without theistic nonsense. I experienced a little anxiety at first–after all, I had been brought up to believe that if I didn’t believe in the Christian God, my life would be a ruinous waste. Two years later, and despite the usual ups and downs (which I accept as part of life, and not the vicissitudes of some narcissistic deity), my life is pretty darned good.
Roger – that was my life too. It was my thoughts on the “devil” that caused me to question everything else. The “devil” or “Satan” is an insult to common sense and pure basic reason. I remember asking my brother how the devil came about. He said it was a fallen angel that did battle with God. So I asked – ok we have two beings, that can neither be wounded or die, doing “battle”? Yes, he said but it was a mental battle. I said please describe the mental battle. He couldn’t. I continued – and the loser was thrown into a pit? Yes…and God allowed the loser of the battle out to tempt his perfect creation? He suddenly became uncomfortable that he might lose his religion and let me tell you – it was extremely scary for him (He is a monk living on a farm in the desert). He didn’t want to lose his religion – it’s like someone taking away everything you’ve ever known – the one thing that gives you comfort and takes away your fear of death. It’s hard defending fairy tales with practical logic – so he hung up the phone.
“He didnāt want to lose his religion ā itās like someone taking away everything youāve ever known ā the one thing that gives you comfort and takes away your fear of death.” I think that is the main reason many christians won’t answer these types of question. They so want what religion promises them and without that promise they are afraid they can’t live.
I also think they’re terrified of denying god. Fear is a powerful motivator; even more powerful than respect. I was an atheist for a good while before I mustered up the courage to say it out loud. It’s hard to break those chains when you’ve been shackled as long as you can remember.
Man, people have already given some great answers, so I will only add one:
When I believed in an interventionist Christian God, the universe didn’t make any sense at all. I just had to keep telling myself it didn’t make any sense because God’s thoughts were higher than my thoughts, and somehow it all made sense to him.
Once I abandoned supernaturalism in general, and god concepts as part of that, suddenly the universe made perfect sense. The universe is what it is. It offers no plans, no inherent meaning, and asks nothing of us in return. If a meteorite wipes us all out tomorrow, it won’t be an act of vengeance, or retribution, or any sort of malevolent act of any kind. It will just be the natural workings of well understood physical laws and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
This freed me to accept bad things happening with no seeming explanation, and it also inspired me to create what comfort and happiness I can in the people I care about. The universe won’t do it for me.
It’s interesting. I think I went through a similar process when I had a “crisis of faith.” I decided to quit looking for supernaturalism, too. But I kept God in the equation and decided, God is God. The Bible might not describe him well. The church may have its misperceptions. My expectations may not be met. So maybe I’ll just observe what God does and accept him for what he is.
Sometimes when I talk about this, someone seems offended, which I do not intend to do. Neither am I trying to prove anything here or win anybody over. Just sharing my perspective.
“But I kept God in the equation and decided, God is God.”
What if you just took him out of the equation and observed everything you see without plugging him in? What changes for you?
To say I kept God in the equation is the short version. I considered the concept that there is no God back then and wrestled with it greatly. I was ready to chuck it all out and start over. I would have lost a lot in terms of job and relationships, but I was seriously considering it.
But I just can’t make sense of a godless universe. And I can’t stop wrestling with a God you don’t believe exists. I’ve been angry at God for a long time over unkept promises, and I’m willing to reformulate my understanding of God–in fact I have. But I’m not willing to call it quits.
Several have made the point that once they walked away from religion and God, their lives became much clearer and even peaceful. The truth is that I envy them their peace.
But I’m not willing to give up the struggle.
Yeah, I’ve encountered this before in many believers – the inability to see a world without god, because otherwise it wouldn’t make any sense to them. Funny how similar we are: I, likewise, can’t make heads or tails of a world where we’re all – per Christian doctrine, in a sense – God’s great science project.
Maybe I’m like Dr. House. I’d rather believe this isn’t just a test.
I’m gonna have to start watching House.
At the risk of sounding maudlin, I often feel like we have more similarities than differences even when we come down on either side of the existence of God. It’s one reason I keep coming back to this site.
We probably do; we’re people, after all, and most of us are extremist fundamentalists; it follows we’ll have some common ground.
I still haven’t got a clue as to where people come up with this image of a loving God that’s so hard to give up? The Bible? The church fathers? Calvin? Luther? I don’t think so. Even Jesus himself is not always such an amiable fellow. Yeah, he said a couple of things about loving your neighbor but he also brought a sword. What is so difficult about giving up Saddam Hussein?
I have no idea where it came from, but it’s what we’re taught, and raised to believe, isn’t it? So what if it doesn’t have any grounding in the real things – in the real teachings? That’s the nature of belief.
I could echo many comments here. This sums up my viewpoint:
Years ago my brother said to me, “So there’s this omnipotent being of some kind who either allows or causes bad things to happen, and that’s supposed to be COMFORTING? I’m much more comforted by the thought that the universe doesn’t know or care about us at all and things happen for no reason.”
Others have said this, but I like being an atheist because everything doesn’t have and doesn’t have to have a meaning. When I loved one dies, I’m supposed to be glad they are in heaven while I grieve? Or I should not be mad that God took my mom? No – people die. It sucks, because as humans we have a preferance in the matter. But it happened because it happened, and I will deal and cope with it as best I can, without the added burden of reconciling guilt over conflicting and un-natural feelings.
Hmm – I can see a theist saying from the above that I don’t believe in God because it is not convenient for me. But the opposite is true – First I stopped believing in God (or more precisely, decided that there is not enough evidence to believe that there is a God, certainly any defined God-figure of any religion, and probably any higher consciousness with opinions at all) and THEN after some time to shed the God-thought habits, I realized the freedom in thinking I got by dealing with reality.
It is hard to write precisely and concisely – I sympathize with others who have long posts.
But this doesnāt seem to move the conversation forward
Vorjack, out of pure curiosity, where would you have wanted that conversation to go? What’s “forward” to you?
Whatās āforwardā to you?
I’ll have you know that I’m a married man, so it wouldn’t have been in the direction you’re thinking. (kidding)
Seriously, in this case, the little snippet was almost a non-sequitur. The young woman had rediscovered her faith the year before and tended to bring it up at the drop of a hat. She asked directly what religion I was during a workplace conversation about something else. It caught me off guard, and I answered directly without considering. Usually I’ll say something evasive, like “I was raised Episcopalian” or “I go to an Episcopal Church.” (which I do, once in a great while.)
Having derailed the conversation, I tried to steer it back towards work. We just avoided the topic after that. So I guess, to answer you question, there is no “forward” in conversations like that. Episcopalians don’t evangelize much – that would be bad manners – and this ex-Episcopalian still maintains that mindset.
Isn’t it frustrating that the phrases you want to use — “immense relief”, “freedom from despair”, “never been more certain of anything” etc etc — are precisely the ones that the religious tend to use, and sound like the same thing to them? That atheism is just another belief system, on equal footing with, say, Judaism, and who is to say your belief is more or less valid?
I haven’t been able to think of how to explain to a religious person that it’s different. It’s not just saying that this is right and that is wrong, it’s saying they’re all wrong. The “atheist” part is incidental, a consequence of the actual important difference, naturalism. There is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy or Zeus or Yahweh. There is no supernatural anything.
…”awakening”…
I lost focus in the article as soon as Dream Theater was mentioned. That said, everybody gets presumptuous about somethings, but they usually don’t apologize for your lack of agreement.
Atheists have a more definite moral code. We, and we alone, are responsible for our actions. We get no second chance for all of eternity. We have but one life on this earth and we damn well better make sure its a good one. Rather than ask forgiveness for a “sin” we simply avoid those sins all together. An enhanced sense of responsibility is put on every atheist the moment he realizes that daddy is not there to hold our hand, god will not find a way, we will receive no help from anyone but ourselves and the people we care about in our lives. Shape up or ship out, don’t fuck around, this is your only shot.
delusion |diĖloÅ zh Én|
noun
an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder : the delusion of being watched.
Religious conviction, presently devoid of any verifiable fact or demonstrable, repeatable evidence for even one of its countless assertions is a category delusion, that, in turn, makes those who subscribe, delusional.
–Robert M. Pirsig
Naturalism actually covers “everything happens for a reason” more than any deity.
Physics is action/reaction; biology is stimuli/response.
Whether you call it a god and give it a name and a personality or call it naturalism and see us as clever animals, we are the same creations.
We fit into or rebel against a system either way.