You may not have heard, but we have a new Secretary of the Army: Rep. John M. McHugh. Unfortunately he’s no friend to atheists, according to Atheist Alliance International:
The nominee, US Rep. John M. McHugh, has demonstrated a clear and troubling record of blatant disregard of the foundational US Constitutional principles of church-state separation in his votes as congressman. Not only has he repeatedly voted against protecting the rights of Americans who hold no religious views, he has actively pushed legislation promoting sectarian proselytizing in the military.
His record shows him supporting the distribution of Christian texts and promotion of prayer in public schools, posting Judeo-Christian momuments on taxpayer property, and removing all accountability from proselytizing by military chaplains and soldiers.
Perhaps it is a coincidence, but “Operation Straight Up” has been allowed to provide entertainment to troops with the goal of “sharing the gospel with soldiers in combat” — something they say has never been allowed before:
Capt. Chris Plekenpol, a spokesman for OSU, was responsible for the lives of 100 men during his tour of duty in Iraq. He says the funds raised will help take entertainment and the gospel to service members overseas.
“This event is historic in the fact that the Pentagon is allowing a faith-based entertainment group to go — this has never happened before,” he shares.
“This is something that…we are going to get a lot of flack about it,” he continues. “I need…my prayer warriors to get on their knees and ask God that this thing goes through, because Satan’s not excited about the fact that we’re sharing the gospel with soldiers in combat who are at a point of crisis when they need something.”
Do you think the Pentagon should allow a group like this to proselytize Christianity to soldiers?
Given they’re shooting at Muslims currently, makeing your soldiers holly is not a good PR plan.
Hmmmm, Crusades much?
A few things always occur to me in these situations…
[1] Do they really think they are dealing with someone who has never heard the gospel before? It is a long time since it qualified as “news”
[2] Do they really not see that they would be outraged at a different religion being allowed to do what they are doing? Or is it that they are working for the “truth”?
[3] Thankfully prayer does nothing! “I need…my prayer warriors to get on their knees”
Seriously soldiers, the want you to buy their magic beans so that you wont worry about getting killed and so they can feel good about getting you killed!
Of course they do. If you get someone into a cult, they are more likely to kill and die for the leader. Hell, I wonder if the new Secretary of the Army is planning to make them march like lemmings
Did anyone say Crusade? Why yes sir…
By the way, misspelled ‘soldier’ on the title. I think.
So… they are going to leave their weapons at home?
Its is really disgusting to know that so many people in power are THAT stupid.
Unfortunately they are sharing the Gospel of Empire with the troops, not the Gospel of Jesus. If they truly believed in the teachings of Jesus, they would throw down their weapons and refuse to be the Empire’s murderers.
One cannot love his enemy while murdering him. However, the Gospel of Empire that the Religious Right sells teachers jihad against all those who threaten “god” (aka the nation). The god of the Religious Right is not the god of the bible, but in face the ambiguous god of the Empire of America – the same “god in which we trust” on our currency.
The Religious Right in the US has hijacked religion and now weld it as a force to promote their jingoism, ultra-nationalism, sectarian and political wished. What better way than to “baptize” the world’s largest military and use it to crush “heathen brown people” in the middle east?
We are seeing history repeat itself, just as Constantine “baptized” the Roman army in it’s ruthless conquest for world domination, so we are seeing the same in Pax Americana. “God Bless Rome and support our Legions”
+1
You know, Brgulker, as much as I think religion is silly, if every religious person was exactly like you it would be very easy to co-exist. I doubt there would even be a need for websites like this.
+2
You do, strange?
Firstly if would be really easy if there weren’t any religious people to co-exist in the first place and brgulker indirectly supports the more radical versions of believers. Secondly why is it easy to co-exist with someone who tries to “behave” with respect right up until the point when he detects the slightness criticism of his religion and plays the persecution card while throwing his toys out the pram?
It’s pretty hard to have a discussion, let alone co-exist, with people who profess and celebrate their irrationality and ignorance.
There’s reason these people worry about being interned in FEMA camps…
… and brgulker has had a choice few of them.
…and brgulker indirectly supports the more radical versions of believers.
Please elaborate.
Well Nope why don’t you think about it for a bit. I’m relatively sure you know exactly what I mean so why the question?
I’d rather you explain your comment than me guess at what you meant, since you could have meant a wide variety of things (ranging from somewhat plausible to completely ridiculous).
Go on take a guess as I’m still relatively sure that you know what I mean … it’ll will be fun ;-)
Nah, Ty took the discussion where I was gonna go with it anyway. I too am familiar with the argument about moderates “giving cover” to extremists, and I in general find the argument without much merit, and practically unproductive even if it were correct.
If you grant the basic notion that people are free to believe whatever, or even the more fundamental notion that people are gonna believe things you think are silly regardless of what you do, Brgulker is exactly the sort of believer you ought to be encouraging (simply from a practical standpoint) instead of poking with a stick.
While I agree that a world that didn’t have the shackles of superstition would be a better world, I’m also a realist. Brgulker doesn’t need me to do anything in order to satisfy the requirements of his faith.
He is greatly outnumbered, of course, by those who DO require that their faith interfere with my life, and I am quite familiar with the argument that moderates create the environment in which extremists can exist. But that fact remains that if Brgulker’s version of religion was the only version, I would never feel the need to worry about what it was up to.
As long as superstitions exist, I prefer the ones that are quiet and self contained.
Yeah I wonder if the military would really tolerate them saying that Jesus-God commanded them to love their enemies and to not take up arms against them. To turn the other cheek. To leave behind all that they hold dear — including the military — and follow Jesus.
I’m sure that would go over real well.
Ironically, I’d wager none of us would have ever heard of Christianity hadn’t Constantine found it such a useful tool to put his soldiers in the right spirit, to consolidate the frayed out empire and political opinion.
I’ve grown more and more convinced that the high level religious and political leaders, throughout history, all realized that religion/god is hokum and that they have used it to either shear the sheeple or to get them to more easily do their bidding.
As Seneca said, religion is regraded by the rabble as true, the wise as false, and the leaders as useful.
Uncharitability aside, this I think is essentially true (especially the last part).
I have never understood how people who say they believe in something will appoint someone they know is going to create problems for them. Was he appointed because it would smooth out problems with the right? Religion should never be a part of our armed forces.
Much ado about nothing as far as OSU. It’s not the job of the military to protect soldiers from exposure to religious proselytizing. If they want to see religious themed entertainment that should be their option. If they are forced to attend, that’s a different matter.
It’s not the job of the military to spend resources to provide religious-themed entertainment, and I highly doubt it’s the soldiers who decided they wanted to be proselytized to, and not the leadership which does seem to have an agenda that violates some core principles of religious freedom.
They shouldn’t be paying for religious-themed entertainment, I agree. But from what I see OSU is donor-funded not military-funded.
“and I highly doubt it’s the soldiers who decided they wanted to be proselytized to”
Soldiers are quite capable of making decisions as to what entertainment they wish to attend. That’s why I said it would only be an issue if they were forced to attend.
Again, much ado about nothing.
UNRR, you beat me to it.
Soldiers have to be 18 to join, making them adults. They can choose to become Christian or not, just as they could choose joining the armed forces. Unless they are getting in trouble for not attending, I don’t see the problem here.
So would similar programs be allowed for atheist groups or Muslim groups? Yeah, right.
Also, are you saying that ZERO U.S. funds were used for this ‘Operation Straight Up”? If not, then it’s unconstitutional. Did any active US military personnel have a part in organizing, promoting, or supporting “Operation Straight Up”? If so, it’s unconstitutional. Funny how the people who proclaim to defend the Constitution are always the first ones to shred it.
“So would similar programs be allowed for atheist groups or Muslim groups? Yeah, right.”
Possibly, and if not they should be. I’d be willing to bet that soldiers stationed in Iraq, Afghanistan & other Muslim countries have attended cultural/entertainment events that have something to do with Islam.
“Also, are you saying that ZERO U.S. funds were used for this ‘Operation Straight Up”? ”
I have no idea. And I already mentioned that I’d be against the government funding it. But if it’s donor-funded, then there isn’t a problem.
“Did any active US military personnel have a part in organizing, promoting, or supporting “Operation Straight Up”? If so, it’s unconstitutional.”
Nonsense. Military personnel are allowed to participate in religious actitivies.
What do you think this parenthetical means?:
“(All names are being withheld in respect of the privacy and/or organizations that fight separation of church and state issues.)”
It’s on this page, which I linked down below, and quoted a decent bit more of it there, and I think you’d ought to read it:
http://www.osutour.com/pentagon.html
They are not there to preach, they are expressly there to make Jesus the answer to everyone’s problems. I say, don’t give them the inch.
Do you have your head on correctly?
“What do you think this parenthetical means?”
I think it means what it says.
“They are not there to preach, they are expressly there to make Jesus the answer to everyone’s problems. I say, don’t give them the inch.”
Who cares? That’s completely irrelevant to anything I wrote. Obviously Christians think Jesus is the answer to everyone’s problems. But soldiers don’t need to be protected from religious messages. Again, if they are being forced to listen to OSU, then that’s a different matter and I oppose it.
“Do you have your head on correctly?”
Yes, you?
I don’t find it at all surprising or disturbing that Christian officers support OSU and its mission. But unless it’s being directly funded with government money, or its religious message is being forced on soldiers against their will, then I don’t see a problem with it.
Do you really think the plane tickets and phone cards don’t have strings attached? Don’t you think when you want to loosen up and get your morale boosted, you’re going to see a show if it’s there? I can imagine seeing a show, ok, there’s some Jesus there. I’m having such a good time though. And they “offer” so much more.
You didn’t really read the parenthetical the way I read the parenthetical. OSU is not just going around “the law.” They are seeping into every available loophole of the law. They are supported by groups that want to abolish this law. Nobody is forcing anyone to take a phone card, but do you know anyone in the military overseas who would refuse one? Or listen to whomever and tell them what they wanted to hear to get one? They’ll be back for that crack.
OSU Tour doesn’t have any interest in keeping church and state separate. They don’t have any respect for it, and actively seek to destroy it. This is one of the effin’ freedoms the military personnel are “fighting for,” for us, we’re told over and over, our liberty, why we are supposed to be supporting this stupid war, the U.S. Constitution. They are standing as close to the barrier as they can and using every idea they can manage, like the video games to convert atheists or kill them, to become a fixture, manipulate the mission, and break up this law. They have no interest in preserving my freedoms.
I am all for some therapy and entertainment for the military, but this does step over the line by actively trying to remove it.
Have you ever served in the military?
“OSU Tour – Board of Directors
Reading like the list of our great Nation’s founders that signed the Declaration of Independence, here are the members committed to this organization’s success and our soldier’s own freedom.”
Oh, mercy.
Really? Does it really say that? Link please?
http://www.osutour.org/sponsors.html
And as if anyone needed to hate Stephen Baldwin (Actor) any more, he’s second on the list.
My concern isn’t that this is proselytizing by force, agenda, financial support of the gov’t. I can’t be sure about the lacks in entertainment or diversion, but I can guess something like this might appeal to more than just Christians or X-curious. There is a flash banner on the site that makes reference to the psychological damages of war, poses this as a (possible) solution. Anyone in a weakened state of mind may be looking for answers, and here the OSU is delivering their version of answers. It’s a cheap play, it’s just a cheap play on the mental state of soldiers. They’re over 18 and full adults who can decide, if only there were alternatives and a concern for their secular mental health issues.
Looking at their list of sponsors, I’m never eating a Subway or drinking a Coke ever again.
I like how it just says “Coke” and not Coca-Cola. I mean, without a link there, it could mean any coke, you know, the other coke.
And on their sponsors & websites page, none of these are listed or linked – just some other organizations. Sloppy? I would think a commercial brand sponsor would want to be linked and attributed correctly.
I reply to myself – I am more repulsed by this, the more I read. The OSU Tour Organization seeks to be the answer -a non-secular answer- to the problems and psychological issues military personnel face. I don’t know if the statistics they use are accurate. They make it sound like anyone against their interference is against addressing divorce and suicide rates, domestic abuse rates, and PTSD. YES, those are real problems. Why doesn’t the MIL. pay for secular treatments of job-related problems? You know, like Worker’s Comp?
This is like, these problems have gone unnoticed and unattended for years, until the Christians came to the rescue – if true (is it true?), why should that be? I can see a lot of soldiers signing up for help and counseling and getting a big box of Jesus to think about and make their problems all better.
Also, as far as the corporate sponsors, I haven’t gotten any progress on finding a link between the OSU and any sponsor on the page I linked. The sponsors aren’t linked there, and none of the sponsors mention supporting this organization or having put their money into other organizations that end up at OSU Tour. Don’t know where to find that out, or if it’s just a big lie. I think the corporate brand sponsors would want everyone to see they are supporting our military, and nobody would read into the particular cause too deeply. If they are donors to this cause, they are trying to keep it quiet…. for some reason.
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Looks like its time for me to donate to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation again. They’ve done a great job of fighting this stuff before. They are fighting an uphill battle here since no one in the upper ranks of the military seems to care one iota about religious freedom. McHugh is definitely not going to help the situation.
That’s because lots of them are in on it. I can’t recall the name of it but there’s this concious strategy of burrowing right wing Xtrians into the military — at the highest levels, including the pentagon. I saw it up close in my previous life. These guys literally think they are on a crusade.
MRFF is a great organization and probably has the info.
Here is another disturbing link:
http://www.osutour.com/pentagon.html
“A man (Jesus Christ), I might mention, that has produced more peace on earth, than any other person on Earth.”
Does he know of someone else called Jesus Christ? Maybe his good twin brother? The one I’ve heard of was (and is) the reason for much suffering over the last 2000 years.
Word.
Thirty Years War. Began and continued mainly over differing opinions on Christ’s message. Up to two thirds of the population of what is now mainly Germany exterminated, killed, murdered, massacred, slaughtered, burned, starved and perished of disease.
Hitler and Stalin put together didn’t achieve that kind of death toll.
By their standard, Stalin was a better peacemaker than Jesus. Are they talking about lifetime achievement only? Ok, by that standard Jesus didn’t achieve any peace at all, apart from allegedly converting a few Roman soldiers to leave service. The Jewish rebellions continued, the Roman wars continued. Jesusfail.
I’d have no real problems with faith-based entertainment for troops – with two provisos:
1) There’s other, non-faith-based entertainment, so they don’t have to watch only the faith stuff.
2) All faiths are equally represented. That would include at least christian, muslim, hindu, satanism, druidism, pastafarianism, jedi, and loads more. And to balance those: atheism.
Non-faith based entertainment is atheistic. You don’t have a-unicornist or a-leprechaunist entertainment. If we start offering ‘atheist’ programs, we’re no longer atheist. They have their rituals and temples and clergy, we don’t concern ourselves with any of that nonsense.
Well, I suppose Randi’s The Amazing Meetings or Drinking Skeptically could almost fit the definition of “atheist religious service”, but it’s a big stretch.
One could divide entertainment roughly between works of art that imply the existence (in the fictional universe) of a universal consciousness or deliberate power, and those that do not.
It’s not just entertainment.
http://www.osutour.com/help.html
“We provide entertainment that will also have lasting significance due to the fact that it is faith-based. Faith-based meaning it is diverse entertainment that includes all interests and is wholesome and clean for families and children yet still interesting to single men and women.”
“It’s a boot camp for the soul.”
http://www.osutour.com/new.html
Tough-Man Meetings:
“We stress the fact that soldiers need proper training to be successful in war, right? So how can they fight the enemy that destroys their homes and children unless they are properly trained. These meetings are all about training to live life to the fullest, God’s way. Some would call it discipleship.”
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder – Launching a Task Force:
“In our conferences we’ve learned, and are encouraged, that individuals can indeed become totally healed from this wounding of the soul called PTSD. We are of the belief that God plays a major role in the mending of a wounded soul. We are currently linking, arm in arm, with professionals that have counseled 1000’s of soldiers and have at times seen amazing results through the work of the Lord.”
Other nice things, like:
Armed Forces Fathering Initiative
“Challenging men to impact their families, and ultimately their world, through fulfilling the proper role of the father.” whatever that’s supposed to mean
and,
supplying airline tickets and phone cards.
Everyone loves a hot cheerleader and some country music and a kickboxing demonstration. Nobody wants to turn down a plane ticket or a phone card on principle, and lots of military personnel need and desire counseling for their problems. I’m not sure anyone likes Stephen Baldwin:
from: http://www.alternet.org/world/59161/
Oh, I forgot, yeah. Video games.
Left Behind: Eternal Forces
Hehe, makes me think of the Simpsons:
“I got him!”
“Naw, you just winged him and made him a Unitarian.”
LOL!
Great post…
How do these maniacs slip through the cracks, honestly? Isn’t there some psychological screening we could do like hide artists’ renditions of Satan in random places and observe reactions? Screen out the wack jobs.
And in the name of all that is reasonable, DON’T give them that much power and access to weapons.
It’s not being faith-based I have a problem with — it’s the proselytizing.
I thought they had a Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy in the Army. If I don’t ask about Jesus, you keep your damn mouth shut.
Oh, silly me. That policy only applies to the filthy fags who endanger the lives of their comrades by feeling their asses while under heavy machine gun fire.
It’s lucky the United States Army is so massively overburdened with recruits that it can afford to alienate so many people.
Those that have commented saying that those in the military are able to say no don’t understand what it means to be in the military. First, when you do join the military you are actually giving up some of the rights you have as a civilian. Free speech is not a right in the military. What you can and can’t say is limited. Freedom of religion is suppose to still be a right but can easily be stepped on by someone higher in rank then you. Freedom of the press is like speech limited.
If you think that an E-1 though E-4 can truly avoid religion when it is being pressed by others that out rank them, you need to join up and learn. I got out when I was an E-6 and if I had decided I wanted those under me to attend something against their will I could easily do it without breaking any rules. If I wanted to break the rules I could also do that but it would have to be done carefully so as to not endanger my rank. If you are low ranking enough it is hard to say no to someone who can completely control your every action.
That is my understanding as well. A lot of my friends and family are former members of the military.
Ditto.
This is scary. The last thing we need is religious people in charge of the military. Unless we need to send young men on suicide missions, then maybe we need them to believe in the afterlife. But then, I don’t think we should be sending young men on suicide missions.
“Those that have commented saying that those in the military are able to say no don’t understand what it means to be in the military.”
Not true. We are merely pointing out that there is no evidence that anyone is being forced to attend OSU events. The fact that service members do not have the same rights as civilians does not mean that there is no division between mandatory functions and optional ones.
If there is such evidence then the government is directly promoting Christianity and violating the establishment clause. But without that evidence all we have is speculation, and assorted hysteria based on very little.
“I’ve grown more and more convinced that the high level religious and political leaders, throughout history, all realized that religion/god is hokum and that they have used it to either shear the sheeple or to get them to more easily do their bidding.”
Bingo…
I think its better than alcohol?! Nobody is forced to do it, i think its not worse than being an athestic soldier.
Is it worse than being incomprehensible?