A mother is angry that a public school high school coach took 20 athletes to a Baptist revival without parent consent, during which some were baptized:
The mother of a Kentucky high school football player is furious over the Christian baptism of her son during what he said was supposed to be a school outing to eat a steak dinner and see a “motivational speaker.”Instead, Breckinridge County High School football coach Scott Mooney took 20 of his players on a trip to a Baptist revival, where eight or nine of the students underwent the Christian ritual of baptism, according to published reports.
Michelle Ammons, mother of 16-year-old Robert Coffee, said she’s upset that nobody ever asked her consent to take her son to the August 26 religious ceremony. She added that she’s even more upset with the school district superintendent Janet Meeks, who was at the revival and did not object to the coach including his students….
“The bottom line here is that public schools have no business meddling in the private religious lives of students,” says advocacy group Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. “Decisions about where, how, if and when to worship belong at home with the parents, who are free to consult with the religious leaders of their choice.”
Do you think the coach was overstepping his bounds?
Yes he was. If the kid wanted to be baptized he should have told his mother. Some families would support that. Instead the mother missed out on something important to her kid. She missed the chance to debate with him about. Also there is a duty of care involved, to make swure parents are aware as much as possible of what is happening to their children
He was absolutely overstepping his bounds, and if it had been a ceremony of any faith other than xtianity the religious right would be frothing at the mouth about how inappropriate it was.
He is in a leadership position with these young people, and whatever he says the’ll have felt pressure to participate or lose their place in the team.
Given this is America I’m surprised he hasn’t been sued.
You say that as if that would be a bad thing. Why?
He should be sued. I’m not one for frivolous litigation, but if I were the parent I’d demand he be fired or I’d sue the school district. This is totally inappropriate and a failure by the mother to make a statement here will be construed as tacit consent, or at least will not show enough resistance to deter future incidents of this kind. Some jackasses need to know that the hammer will fall on them if they violate the law. They aren’t going to behave for goodness’ sake.
And the arrogance of this guy taking someone else’s children to a revival without their consent. What a presumptuous jerk.
Damn the softness of the media today. Why aren’t they asking those who think the coach did nothing wrong whether they’d think the same if he took them to perform a Muslim ritual? Or a Hindu ritual? Or a Satanic ritual? Why are these questions never asked? Why is no one questioning the people who are obviously nutballs about it?
Please tell me that he’s not still in his job!
well, as bad as this story is, it could have been even worse. Her son could have been the victim of a drive-by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtUOXis4T0s
The thought of drive-by saving has never occurred to me! I’ve never had the slightest notion that this sort of thing went on! Having seen it, I don’t see any difference between creepy guy in car and stupid coach.
Well! Drive-By Saving! You really do learn something new every day…
Oh, hell yes. This guy needs to be dropkicked in a hurry.
Yes, he sure was. But at least in my country people can make their own religious decisions when they’re older than fourteen.
The boy definitely didn’t have to ask his mother.
i agree that the kid was old enough yeah, but you got to look at the conformity level at that sermon. With him being a teenager he is still looking to find himself, and if a lot of his friends are there getting baptized he will more than likely conform.
Its not that I think he cant choose his religion. Its the fact that he left his mother out of a major decision. That she missed out on something which could direct his life for years to come. That the school that she trusts to care for her child mislead and allowed him to do so, also pisses me off
the coach did overstep his boundaries i agree. And that is terrible that the school let him do that. He should be fired
Had they gone to a Muslim festival, during which some of the kids had converted, he would have been fired and probably lynched. But people seem to think “but they’re converting to my religion” makes it all all right…
Two words: hell, yes.
Overstepping his bounds, definitely.
On the other hand…. the only real harm is that he got dunked in some creek water.
But not before enduring a probably long-winded appeal to emotion, vague threat of eternal punishment, and other assorted bits of spiritbabble. I sincerely hope the steak dinner was the best steak dinner ever imagined or cooked by humans.
yeah, i know – my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek.
I completely, 100% agree that kids should not be subjected to this kind of stuff and that it should never have happened.
But, it’s not like any parent should actually be worried about the act of baptism itself, because in the end, all it is is just dipping yourself in water, just like going for a swim (except more boring)
Unless it’s the group that likes to handle snakes as well…a little more dangerous that a simple dunking. Or the group that likes to drink Kool Aide so they can meet Jesus in his space ship. Or the group that calls all soldiers faggots. Or….
…etc etc….
Those groups I believe are also ‘baptist’, or offshoots. So I maybe would not be worried about the baptism itself, but what other ‘doctrine’ they will follow, or teach.
As a parent, I’d be extremely pissed.
I believe there is a school district in the south that actually closes the local schools for a few days to accommodate an annual evangelical crusade.
A lot of schools in my area do this as well… It’s called the First Day of Hunting Season. :)
Honestly, it is ridiculous to even ask if he were overstepping his bounds. He is neither the parent or legal guardian. He had no right to attempt to indoctrinate- could this in some way be construed by a crafty metro lawyer somewhere to be kidnapping and brainwashing, LOL???
BTW, though I was never baptised, etc., wouldn’t a person have to ” accept willingly jesus into their heart”? To me this was simply imtimidationof children. This guy is worse than pathetic. Real powers of persuasion on display there, buddy.
yeah, I had a conversation like this with my mother-in-law several years ago. I came out to my in-laws as an atheist before marrying their daughter. They knew I grew up as a Baptist, but I never got baptized.
One week before the wedding, my mother-in-law emailed me and asked if I would “do her a favor” and get baptized. She didn’t seem to understand that the reason I wasn’t baptized was that I didn’t believe, but she didn’t care – she only wanted me to have the “title” of being baptized, presumably because it would embarrass her if her church friends knew their daughter married an unbaptized man.
How did you handle that?
My first thought was, yes, of course he overstepped his bounds; it’s not even questionable.
Even as a Christian, I would be very upset if this happened.
On second thought, it’s unclear from the article if this coach is also a teacher, and it’s also not clear whether or not this coach is paid or a volunteer. The only reason I bring that up is because if he’s a volunteer and/or not a teacher, the separation issue wouldn’t be as prominent. That doesn’t mean it’s acceptable — misleading parents never, ever is — but it would affect the way we talk about the issue, namely, not in terms of separation of church and state but rather in terms of misleading/deceiving parents.
Him being a volunteer would not ameliorate any Church/State issues, legally speaking.
Agreed. By the name, it sounds like a public high school. If so, it is part of a municipality or local government which is an incorporated entity of the state. At the least, the coach, whether an employee, volunteer or otherwise, is an agent of the school district. Absolutely a sepration issue, and the superintendent failed in her fiduciary duties.
Apparently, people want to be baptized *so badly* that you have to use peer pressure and/or bait-and-switch tactics to pressure them into it. Let’s hear it for the fundies! Praise Jebus!
As Elemenope points out it does not alleviate the church/state problem as he used his position as a school representative (a coach) to take the children on a school bus to the event. It does make it easier to get rid of him if he is a volunteer and not a paid employee.
I note that the article says only 8 or 9 students out of the 20 got baptized. I wonder if all the other 11 or 12 were already baptized (perhaps from a previous year’s outing) in a way that church recognized or if any actually withstood the peer and coach pressure.
Regardless of his status as a volunteer (although many HS coaches are considered staff in the US) or not the trip used official school property (school bus to the trip) and had school staff (the principal or super) that went along on the trip in the bus with the students with full knowledge of where they were going and why. The trip didn’t involve much forewarning to the parents and the school did not collect any type of permission slip from the parents. In this case multiple parents were also given a false impression of what would be going on at the event.
This is absolutely a separation issue as well as a parents rights issue. All of these children were minors although physical harm may not come with them being dunked in water it puts them in contact with people that may or may not cause other forms of harm. If the children continue with the issue it can cause family strife and stress depending on the family’s belief system. If they don’t it still opens them up to possible harassment through “helpful” phone calls or other contact from the church seeking to administer to it’s “flock”. Not to mention the potential emotional stress from feeling guilt at having let someone down if they decide not to pursue the path of faith.
I would go ballistic if this happened to my children. I would be calling for his resignation, and making sure that the school never ever thought about this again.
This coach looks like Ned Flanders in my head, now.
Daniel, your sense of humour is in top form today! The image of the Japanese Macaque bouncing in the water for this posting on baptism was perfect.
And I am with the mother, I would be mad as hell!
Overstepping his bounds?
Hell, no!!
He just had some water thrown on them with another guy reading an old book, that can be silly, bu i’s totally harmless!
This is definitely NOT something that should be policed by the state.
And while indoctrination of minors is despicable, it’s perfectly accepted, legally and socially.
Are you serious?
Are you planning to procreate any time soon?
What does that have to do with anything?
I think the normal follow-up the general joke form is a request not to.
If it was only water then it would be a fun day, but did they also brainwahs those kids?
Brainwashing started in the family already, the coach sure wasn’t the first to do it…
Your parents have a legal right to socialize you. They also created you and care for your every need, so it could be argued they have a moral right to socialize you as well. It’s also useful for parents to perform this function from a biological standpoint, in the sense that children need to understand the society they live in. It is patently absurd to imply that such responsibility can be assumed by anyone who has a whim to do so, and whenever they see fit, without the express consent of the parents.
First off, you cannot legally take someone else’s child wherever you like, to do whatever you please. This coach was supposed to take the children to a steak dinner and to hear a motivational speech. If you were so inclined, you could argue that is what he did, providing steak was served at this revival and there was a secular motivational speech given. We could also argue that such an argument is ridiculous, because lying through omission is still lying, and that is exactly what this coach did. He lied. He illegally took this minor child to a location his parents did not know about or agree to. He illegally lied about the nature of the activities at this location. He illegally used an activity funded and administered by a state agency for the express purpose of pushing his religion on minor children.
If you don’t think the state should police violations of the law, then I suggest you haven’t thought this matter through very thoroughly. I expect you’d have a different view if the state failed to police someone bashing your face in and stealing your possessions.
Yes. I guessed he was fired.
Jesus would not like this….
Of *course* he overstepped his bounds. It was a public school. He should have his butt fired. Probably the rest of him too. If it happened to my kid, I’d sue the school so fast all their heads would swim. (Get it? Baptism? Head swim? Oh, never mind.)
Of course, in terms of, “harm done,” well, what can I say? The kids had some water poured over their heads while a strangely dressed man said funny words to them. Completely meaningless. The only personal “harm,” is the harm that exists in the mind that believes the ridiculous.
Societal harm? A much different story. This guy is pooping on the Constitution. That’s the reason I’d be suing. Stupid stupid stupid.
A steak dinner and a motivational speaker. I can’t say whether that would have pricked up my ears. Speaking on what, might I ask? Does this person have a name? I don’t know that I would have thought to find out. As a mom (I’m not a mom, but in this example I could be), I would try to give my teenager space and trust that he’s in the company of another adult and asking too many questions is the sort of thing kids don’t like you to interfere with.
Yes, I definitely think the coach overstepped his bounds. He was entrusted with minors and he lied about his intent. He obscured it, he didn’t send out a newsletter, as a responsible adult intent on baptizing children, it seemed more like an innocent team spirit outing. If my child chose to be baptized, I couldn’t stop him, but it’s wrong to bring children away from their parents with the express idea of baptizing them. It’s like he thought it was his role to make these children men and that it would be cool to get hookers as a team spirit outing. If it was his intent to have this team preached to and then peer-pressured, or hazed I believe applies, he is in the wrong. Also I would be very disappointed in any son of mine to go along if he didn’t want to or be stupid or gullible enough to buy into the bull and participate of his own accord. I can’t stop him from finding religion but would hope not.
Then again, I figure most of your parents weren’t too keen on you seeking authority figures and references that played you into your deconversions. How many of you when you were minors had conversations with freethinking adults who didn’t think they had to tell your mama who you were talking to and how they helped you change your mind?
But Kodie, he lied for Jesus. That makes it totally okay.
The coach over-stepped propriety but then again, magic doesn’t exist so there is no lasting harm unless the baptizing included brainwashing.
Whether or not magic exists is far from relevant here. There are all sorts of strong social messages involved in this incident, namely the fact that religious beliefs are more important than honesty or local, state and federal laws. There’s also a powerful social dynamic at work that you fail to recognize here. Children, even in their late teens, are extremely impressionable. This coach is a person in a position of authority, whose behavior set a terrible example at the very least.
Meh. To kids, it’s just getting splashed with water and then listening to a boring speech.
It actually reminds me of a kerfuffle a few weeks back where video surfaced of a young kids’ school class being directed in song whose lyrics were, um, embarrassingly obsequiously flattering of President Obama. And on one level, I got where all the angry parents were coming from: it shouldn’t have happened, it’s politicization of the classroom, blah, blah, blah. But on a purely practical level, to the young kids the lyrics were mostly meaningless and they were just happy to be singing, and on that basis I couldn’t bring myself to much care.
So, yeah, the parents have a right to get upset, but getting overexercised about this sort of thing feels disproportionate to me.
I don’t think it qualifies as “getting overexercised” to be outraged at having someone illegally cart another person’s kid off to a religious event on a public school budget without the parent’s knowledge or consent. It is outrageous, and it’s not very similar to having kids sing a misguidedly patriotic song that idolizes the president.
It is outrageous, and it’s not very similar to having kids sing a misguidedly patriotic song that idolizes the president.
Er, I see the situations as exactly equivalent. If we go by your theory (which I do not completely accept) that parents have a moral right and obligation to acculturate their kids, then a school intruding on political indoctrination is at least as severe as the same institution intruding on religious indoctrination.
And in both cases, the harm done is entirely in the parent’s heads. Not that the harm *isn’t real*. But if it exists, it is almost completely against the parent. The child could care less and in all probability will not be affected (either politically or religiously) by the affair.
“Do you think the coach was overstepping his bounds?” One might as well ask, do we need oxygen to live? Of course he overstepped. This coach should be removed from his position with the school system. Apparently, he does not understand the meaning of separation of church and state, nor does he know the boundary of his job, which as far as I can tell, is to coach children to play a game. Period. If that were my child, I wouldn’t rest until he was fired, but hey, that’s just me.
…nor does he know the boundary of his job, which as far as I can tell, is to coach children to play a game. Period.
I agree with all your sentiments, except the one above. The primary contours of a coach’s job are to teach the sport, certainly, but there are also a large number of less easily definable duties, such as mentoring and being a role-model and so forth, as well as legal duties (such as reporting abuse). After all, it strains reason for a coach to be asked by his or her players some non-sports related question and have the automatic response be “can’t comment, not sports related”.
Of course, nothing covers surreptitiously taking players to get baptized. That is right out.
This is really wrong, and I speak as a christian.
The more I think about this story, the more I honestly think I would beat the coach to death with his own whistle-on-a-ribbon. I thought nothing could top the Mormon’s posthumous baptisms of holocaust victims, but this is up there.
Rent the documentary “Jesus Camp.” ‘Nuff said.
I plan on becoming a coach so I can take players to an endangered-species steak dinner, a motivational reading of Mein Kampf, baptism in the Westboro Baptist Church, and then finish up with an armed assault on an abortion clinic. I should be able to get away with it if I move to Texas….
Gotta have life goals….
Your ambition inspires me
An obvious question that needs to be asked: Would any of these good Baptist folk — who see nothing wrong with baptizing public schoolkids in their own church — be happy if someone else had taken their children through a Roman Catholic baptism? Would they be happy if their kids had been brought to a seder? Or a service in a mosque? Or brought to a neopagan drum circle?
If their answer to even just one of those things is “no,” then finally they understand why what they did was simply and thoroughly wrong. Even if SOCAS were not at issue here — it is nevertheless just plain wrong to put kids through any kind of religious ceremony without their parents’ explicit permission. You just don’t do it … ever. There is no good moral excuse for it.
O’ course, if’n yer trine ta teach dem dere chilluns da way o’ da Low-urd (puh-rayz Jeezus!) cause yer preacherman dun tol’ ya to, ‘n’ y’alwayz does as yer preacherman sez, ‘en Ah guess ya gots yerself a excuse.
All I can say is I saw “Kentucky,” & thought…well of course. Why is anyone surprised by this. We moved to rural PA when I was 7. Now I’m 44 so I would hope things have changed, but back then, my public school featured a fourth grade teacher who played the piano each morning & made us sing hymns & pray, (she also beat kids in class), her brother-in-law was the “guidance counselor” but was a preacher outside of school. We had assemblies with religious speakers. In high school, I got in deep shit with the biology teacher for asking about evolution, which he bashed constantly & with a dripping loathing. He made me go to see the principal, who was his brother. A third brother was the coach. I mean…hello! Welcome to inbred hicksville! Did the coach overstep HIS bounds? No, of course not. He was clearly within the bounds set by his own mind & very likely endorsed by his insular community. Did he overstep my liberal city folk bounds? Hell yeah! But from his standpoint, he probably thought he was just doing the good work of the lord. I can easily imagine he was not thinking vindictively or sneakily at all. Does that make it right? No. Really, it makes it MORE wrong. Someone who has convinced themselves that their own motives are pristine & pure is MUCH more dangerous than someone who is conniving or aware of their own baser motivations. I just got back from visiting my mom, an aged Alabaman, & she just kept going on about how every time she sees a kid who’s half black, half white, they’re just so out of control! You’re sounding pretty racist here, I said. No, she protested, she’s not at all, but all those mixed kids are just so wild, that’s all she’s saying. I felt so sad…I think the people who do & say these kinds of damage while they believe in their deepest hearts that they are truly well meaning are the most damaging, because their message is clothed in kindness.
Someone who has convinced themselves that their own motives are pristine & pure is MUCH more dangerous than someone who is conniving or aware of their own baser motivations.
I really wish more people understood this. Especially politicians and soccer moms.
Corrolary: “Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man.” — Bertrand Russel
Likewise, students everywhere should be furious about this comment:
“Decisions about where, how, if and when to worship belong at home with the parents, who are free to consult with the religious leaders of their choice.”
As if students should be constrained by the will of their parents in choosing their religious beliefs any more than they could be influenced by someone like their coach.
As if students should be constrained by the will of their parents in choosing their religious beliefs any more than they could be influenced by someone like their coach.
As a practical matter…they are. Which makes most reasonable arguments about whether they should or not fairly moot.
So furious, I would probably rally other students in college campuses around the country to elect someone with a muslim sounding middle name; oppressed minority background, and liberal views to the presidency just to spite them.
Oh, wait, that’s already happened…..
Last, I used to know someone who worked as a nurse in nursing homes. Most often they’re full of elderly people who wonder why they’re in a low-end old foggies home where their children never come to see them. Not that it’s related to the topic in any way, just thought I’d throw that out there.
She’s very sullen, sometimes I wonder if the job made her that way.
Nope. Baptism isnt required or forced. The kids werent required to go. If they WERE, THEN it would be over-stepping his bounds. Other than that, he was just offering, and they accepted.
Guys, let’s strip the religion part out of this for a moment.
This guy LIED TO A BUNCH OF KIDS’ PARENTS ABOUT WHERE HE WAS TAKING THEIR CHILDREN.
How can anyone say this was okay?
You think he had it bad? In my primary school days (6-12 years old) we used to be taken to confession on a regular basis – the entire school, that is. And so we duly confessed robbing sweets or slagging off a classmate, to a priest who turned out to be a known paedophile. This being Catholic Ireland in the repressed old 1980s, when the abortion and divorce referenda were both lost by huge margins, it _never_ crossed anyone’s mind to ask the parents – the teachers just assumed they were all good catholics. Yet damaging it was: it did a lot to spread the meme of an all-powerful entity scrutinizing my every move, with the massive guilt complex that came with that, in my influencable young mind. We had a particularly fervent teacher who would lead prayers before starting class, and teach us suitably rousing songs along the lines of ‘Amazing Grace’, and the school would prepare us for the confirmation ritual around the age of 12. Even today 90% of primary schools in Ireland are run by the Catholic church, and in some cases – where you’re obviously of another religion – you need a baptismal cert to be admitted.
As a Jesuit saying goes: “Give me a 7-year-old boy and I will give you the man”