The Pope recently blamed atheists for the world’s environmental problems:
Is it not true that inconsiderate use of creation begins where God is marginalized or also where is existence is denied? If the human creature’s relationship with the Creator weakens, matter is reduced to egoistic possession, man becomes the “final authority,” and the objective of existence is reduced to a feverish race to possess the most possible.
Most of the people I’ve met who don’t care about the earth have been Christians. I’m sure my experience is biased, but I also haven’t met an atheist that isn’t concerned about our environment — though I’m sure there are some. Most Christians who don’t care about the environment do so on the basis that God has things under control and he’ll eventually torch the earth anyway. Atheists, on the other hand, believe this is the only home we have and we need to take care of it.
There are Christians who care about the environment, but that’s been a fairly recent bandwagon for them. The evangelical green movement has been gaining momentum, and I’m pleased with that.
But it’s just stupid to think that our environmental problems stem from atheism, when everyone knows it stems from denying the Flying Spaghetti Monster, bless His Holy Noodle.
(via)
“And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
All right, all right! I confess. I caused global warming.
So in breif, the pope is saying that if we atheists are not concerned about the environment then we are egoists in other words, selfish?
But if christians are not concerned about the environment then it is ok because they believe that god has everything under control anyway?
Take a look at that and tell me that the pope’s argument is not biased? If we don’t care about the environment and we are selfish then the argument should be based on universalizability so the argument should also apply to christians. In other words, if we are selfish because we are not concerned about the environment then the christians who are also not concerned are also selfish. So shove that down your throat popey and nom it!
Well. I don’t need to be afraid or reverent of some mythical being to value, honor and love nature as it exists, neither to feel wonder at it. I don’t need belief to feel sick when I see animals murdered for the sake of their pelts or their bones, neither to feel empathy for animals fleeing from burning forests because somebody wants to raise cattle there; I don’t need mysticism to appreciate the sheer beauty and diversity of wildlife, I don’t need magic to see that destroying the fragile equilibrium of our world is a Bad Thing of epic proportions.
God’s Rottweiler and his bigoted opinions can kiss my atheist ass. I’ve little patience with childish blaming games performed by adults who should know better.
I didn’t get the same message from that quote. It seemed to me like he was saying that material things have more meaning for christians than atheists, to whom material things are simply possessions to be accumulated for the purpose of satisfying our egos. I guess that means that christians appreciate their possessions more because they see them as gifts from god? It’s a stupid assertion either way.
In general, accusations of materialism come across as rather hollow when they’re coming from a man dressed in velvet and jewels who lives in a gigantic, gold gilded palace.
And he’s in charge of a church that has $4 billion in assets but refuses to distribute that wealth to the poor and doggedly refuses to advocate for simple contraceptive techniques that would help reduce the suffering of the poor and may help curb overpopulation.
The Catholics are very generous with the poor and underpriviledged here in my community. They manage their resources very carefully here, though because there are folks who would use it all up and there’d be nothing to show for it. On the contraception, I so-o-o whole heartedly agree!
Seriously? The RCC only has $4 billion in assets? If I were God I would command Bill Gates to buy them out and shut them down, donate their beautiful buildings to the Richard Dawkins Foundation who could convert them into science education centers with all the stained glass windows replaced with tributes to the great heroes in the history of the mind and intellectual freedom—people like Socrates, Marcus Aurelius, Voltaire, Galileo, Newton, Leibniz, Einstein, etc., etc.
with all the stained glass windows replaced
Nooooo! Not the pretty art…! It didn’t do anything :o
The church’s assets are very spread out and not precisely calculable. But, estimates of all value that would theoretically be available range between 90 and 100 billion dollars worldwide. I have no iea where that five billion figure comes from, but that sounds more like the assets of the church in one country.
ahhh, now we’re talking. I thought that $4 billion figure sounded ridiculously small.
I thought so, too. The RCC is more like a small nation than a large company…
I always found it strange that more non-end-of-days Christians weren’t environmentalists. I mean if you believe that a magical being had created all of this with a specific plan, who are you to screw it all up? Especially if they believe he’s coming back.
@trj: nice
They believe His plan is to screw it up. And how. They’re just getting a head start.
Oh, you said “non-end-of-days”. My bad. Well, it still sort of holds (there aren’t many Christians who believe that Revelation to John isn’t at least true in the broad strokes), but your point is nevertheless well-taken.
Meh… Judgment Day’s coming any time now. Might as well use up what we can while we can.
Bishop of Rome : environmentalism = Joe the Plumber : politics
wow I didn’t think religious nuts could get any dumber, leave it to the pope to prove me wrong. People really worship this guy? The human race is fucked if religion isn’t eradicated from government soon.
I feel like running to the hills.
There are Christians who care about the environment, but that’s been a fairly recent bandwagon for them. The evangelical green movement has been gaining momentum, and I’m pleased with that.
Thanks for acknowledging that, Daniel. I don’t fully understand when in history Christians stopped caring about the world, but it’s undeniably happened. Fortunately, there’s a growing chunk of us who realize that such a line of thinking is destructive and not even in congruence with our own history as Christians.
Personally, methinks it’s got less to do with Christianity and more to do with people finding justifications to not bother themselves with the environment. Saying this world is transient and that it belongs to us anyway is a neat cop-out to not do anything whatever about it.
Well, we can’t forget that enviromentalism is not a so old movement, not only between christians, but in our society in general. Maybe christians came to it a bit later, and of course atheism and pollution are not causally related, but I don’t think they can be blamed on the contrary.
I mean, when Bush’s people deny global warming, they are not speaking in favour of god’s faith, but in favour of their economic interests
Siberia was faster :-p
Do you think christians not caring about the earth as much as they should is a reflection of being Co-Oped by the republican party. I’m just curious to know because I would think that protecting the planet for future generations would be something that is obviously implied even in the selective biblical interpretation of most christians and church organizations.
@ brgulker
my above comment was a question for you, if you get the time Id like to hear your thoughts on it.
Do you think christians not caring about the earth as much as they should is a reflection of being Co-Oped by the republican party
Intuitively, that seems like a good argument. There’s no doubt that the R’s have duped, hijacked, and manipulated conservative Christians for all of my lifetime. This could be another example.
@ bgulker
I guess what I’m really getting at is, why aren’t the majority of churches making a big deal out of t his. It appears to me that over consumption, squandering of resources and lying about the effect of mans behavior towards the environment would be a clear no no to christian supporters of republicans.
It appears to me that lying about the health care reform bill, shouting down people at town halls who are in favor of health care would be a serious no no.
I guess what I’m kinda asking is, where are the christians who are so concerned and passionate over the abortion issue when it comes to fighting for universal health coverage of the mother who is gonna have to raise that baby.
The vitriol of some christian abortion activist seem to be in direct contrast with fighting against or not fighting for universal health insurance for poorer Americans.
Wouldn’t you think so?
yes, it’s far more a Republican co-option thing than anything inherent in Christianity. Christianity is totally neutral on these questions. People who make up some pro- or anti-environmental protection interpretations of the Bible are quite likely in most cases simply trying to use the Bible for support of views they have independently developed.
You don’t think being your brother keeper and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you implies that universal health care insurance is the right thing to do?
Especially given the fact that the US is the most prosperous nation/empire in the history of the planet.
In their own twisted way, they are doing unto others what they would want others to do unto them. By supporting legislature to end abortion and the like, they believe that they are preventing others from sinning and thus saving souls. When you contrast saving someone from eternal burnination with saving them from temporary discomfort, the choice seems easy.
Of course, some of them are doing it for their own benefit. They don’t want other people doing that kind of thing because then they and their children will be exposed to it. If they’re exposed to it, it might influence them, and if it influences them, they might not make it to Heaven.
My parents seem to be motivated by a little of both.
Shame that when god was inspiring the bible, he didn’t foresee environmental problems and overpopulation and warn against trashing the planet. Maybe “omniscient” doesn’t mean what I think it does…
To the former, I’m not sure that the anti-health care, pro-life crowd recognizes that obvious fact. They want to end abortion but have no interest in helping mothers keep children who would otherwise be aborted. I hear you, and I don’t know why it’s not more obvious ….
I agree with you. One of the Christian groups that I follow that is very interested in health care reform is Sojourners. Jim Wallis has been leading the charge, as it were, appearing on several national media outlets to make the moral and religious case for providing health care for the poor.
That’s all I’m saying BG. I just think folks like Rick Warren and Joel Osteen should be rolling around the pulpits over issue. I cannot understand why the anti reform voices are more passionate about this than really prominent and high profile church officials.
I mean you can feel when an issue is hot with a group or a prominent individual or an organization, I don’t get the feeling that the overall church is fighting like hell for this issue.
thank you for being honest Bgulker
The thing going on between Republicans and the religious right is more of a symbiosis. There are at least two social threads within fundagelicals in relation to environmental concerns. 1- God is in charge and is coming back to set things straight so global warming is a result of sin (if it actually exists) and will be corrected shortly. There are far more important things to deal with like ‘souls’. 2- Christians on the right are generally conservative. They don’t like change. This natural proclivity is theologically expressed in manic calls for objective (unchanging) morals, returning to a (past Utopian like) Christian Nation, law and order (clearly known power relationships), a mistrust of intellectualism and outsiders (sources of flux), etc.
My fundamentalist parents have always been Republican like most of the people I grew up around. Something is going on around the world that is amplifying the semiconscious fears held by fundamentalists. I suspect it has something to do with the turbo charging of information exchange
I think its the growing fear that other people are not like them. Other people are living happy productive lives that do not follow the same underlying philosophy they’ve structured their life by and it makes them afraid.
It’s all the “Signs of the Times” that have been happening for the last… oh, ten thousand years. More recently, though: the number of divorce rates, the battle for gay rights (and legalization of gay marriage), the popularity of pornography and sex workers, the fact that people are less uptight about the clothes they wear and the sexual/violent content in the movies they watch (c’mon, Mom… you watched Spider-Man, too), the relaxation of language taboos, the removal of religious beliefs/expression from official school property and events, the popularity of vegetarianism (due to a misinterpretation of a text criticising the Essenes), and the declining popularity of Christianity on the whole. All of these, according to the fundies, indicate that the end is very close at hand.
I don’t see that it ever started. Conquest and domination, justified by the Great Commission among other selected verses, has been the overarching theme through history, seems to me. Christ’s message and mission was exploited and bastardized.
“Christ’s message” was made up, so it can be remade whenever necessary to uphold the politics of those in power.
Whether it was all made up or a reality, it was much purer, more altruistic approach to living than what was done with it.
Christ’s message and mission was exploited and bastardized.
I certainly agree with you there. The institutional church has parted ways with Jesus at many different points through out history.
This is going to sound like a dodge, and I really don’t intend it to be one; I’m just very limited by demands at work today. I think students of church history can point to people, groups, and movements throughout history, as well as narratives and principles from our Scriptures, that contain the seeds of ecological theology. I really don’t mean to dodge, but I don’t have the time to get more in-depth than that.
“Even the devil can quote scripture for his own purpose”
Is it really any surprise that people find myriad ways to interpret such ambiguity as we find in the bible? The least imaginative and most intellectually lazy among believers will always take the most expedient (by this I mean least effort) interpretation of biblical scripture they can find. It isn’t a matter of firmly held, well-thought-out belief. It’s whatever interpretation that first presents itself that requires no work on the part of the believer. I fear the bulk of them fit into this category, and aligning themselves with a party that wants them to do nothing, ever, is a perfect marriage. Liberalism is about thought, civic duty and activism. That’s too much work for a fundie.
In addressing this issue, you have to consider that Il Papa is a rational, German modernist. To his mind, the conflict between “science” and “religion” is still the key issue of the day. From that perspective the destruction of the environment by secular, modernistic states (i.e. – the U.S., former Soviet Union, the E.U., etc.) through top-down governance of agriculture, nuclear, chemical, and biological testing, scorched-earth industrial warfare, and excessive use and abuse of non-renewable resources for political and economic gain is a devestating effect of post-enlightenment, humanistic athiesm.
Cut the pope some slack–he’s an old man stuck with a position of great authority in an age where few remember modernity and almost no one lives by its principles.
For some reason Il Papa sounds like a great name for an italian rapper.
One of the problems with a belief in any “higher power” is that that belief absolves the believer from responsibility for their actions. One can steal from others but the higher power forgives the thief. In the environment, one can pollute or destroy and ask for forgiveness and believe that it is ok.
Since the religious don’t “know” when the end of days is going to be held, I would think they would want to make the current days as livable as possible.
Wasn’t it decent god fearing people like Gorge W, Sarah Palin, Dick Chaney and their ilk who advocated drilling for more oil even where it will destroy irreplacible natural habitats and spent years killing any effort to develop alternative technologies.
Anyway global warming is a caused by atheists who destroy the souls of kids by teaching them about evolution leading to over crowding of hell that forced the devil to open some windows for ventilation and let the heat escape and worm the earth.
“Is it not true that inconsiderate use of creation begins where God is marginalized or also where is existence is denied?”
This is pure, distilled Ratzi evasionism. I have noticed in the past he has a tendency to avoid accountability by quoting other people. That way, when the effluence hits the fan, (as it did when he quoted an archaic cardinal and P*ssed off muslims) he can deny that he himself meant anything offensive. Note here is is phrasing his bigotry as a question, rather than as an outright declarative statement.
If I had a God-given ability to make infallible statements and make bound on Earth what is bound in Heaven, I like to think that I wouldn’t go about it in such a weasely fashion.
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals.
Except the weasel.
I think we should blame the environmental problems on his bad hair. What’s up with that?
I had a Christian boss a few years back. We had to used this spray adhesive that was in an aerosol can. Bad, bad stuff for the ozone. So when I complained about it, he would say that it says in the Bible that 1/3 of the earth is going to be burned, so he was just doing his part for Revelation….
…nothing like self fulfilling prophecy…
Ask him if he feels the same way about his children.
When reason fails, use ridicule;
F%$# the Pope.
“If the human creature’s relationship with the Creator weakens, matter is reduced to egoistic possession, man becomes the “final authority,” and the objective of existence is reduced to a feverish race to possess the most possible.”
Sadly, another case of a believer (I suppose) assuming that a non-believer can only be selfish and out to grab whatever he or she can. Why can’t believers understand that there’s so much more than just that? But I guess that if they could, they’d not be believers any more, but rational, thinking people.
It makes my day to hear the Pope complains about atheists.
Stuffy old codger.
God has a plan, just like the Cylons did.
Both seem to involve killing Billions of innocent people.
Maybe the Cylons had a plan. . .
Too bad the writers of the show didn’t.
I thought it ended just fine, personally, though I know the last half of the last season rankled many fans.
Most of season 4 and all of season 5 were complete crap.
I pretend it ended after season 3.
Aw, why–WHYYY–did you go and mention that thirty minute deus ex machina tour de force? The first hour and a half was pretty frakkin’ good (of course, I’m also bracketing the pretty crappy nine episodes that preceded it), but damn, the whole “Goddidit” and “Mitochondrial Eve” BS hacked me off. I pretend the series ended with “Revelations” (I do a mental mashup of the end of that episode and “Daybreak”).
While I know some people who may never speak to me again if I say Battlestar galactica sucks I doubt any of them will try to blow me up over it.
LOL. My S.O. bitterly and irrationally hates Lost. Sometimes I think she does it just to antagonize me about it. :)
Um, I totally will, Yoav. Television jihad!!
I thought the ending was brilliant. But, I understand why other fans of the series do not.
Daniel,
I am not a full fledged atheist, but I am quite the skeptic. I always enjoy reading your blog. With that said I could almost be one of those who don’t care about the environment. In a sense I do, however, I don’t feel the problems that our environment is facing is man made. I truly feel that the cause is based off of a natural cycle of the universe (science – not the hand of some God).
Over the summer I traveled to Alaska. On one part of my trip I hiked up to see a glacier. Unfortunately I can not recall the specific name of the glacier, but people had been marking how much it has been receding for a very long time. The glacier had receded so much that it was alarming. The markings began at what seemed to be miles away from where the glacier sits today. But the most interesting thing was the DATES associated with the various points along the trail. The dates went back to the mid to late nineteenth century. That is before humanity had vehicles, highways, semi trucks, or even before man went “green.”
I know one can not truly link an atheist and a skeptic as having the same look on religion, but one can not deny that they would not hold many similarities. I suppose you could mark me as one of those who don’t “care” about the environment. It not for a lack of belief in the environment changing, but rather it is out of our control. It is the fault of something larger than humanity at work, but it is also no work of some creator.
You believe that a natural cycle of the universe is causing global warming? Huh.
Even if it were true, that only speaks to one element of the ‘environment’.
Fighting against the dumping of toxic sludge into rivers has nothing to do with global warming, and yet those who fight it would call themselves environmentalists.
What Ty said.
I agree with Ty as well. Even if you don’t think global warming is man made, as Ty pointed out we are still polluting our rivers, streams and oceans. We are still taking out unsustainable amounts of fish from our rivers, streams and oceans.
Ty,
I agree with the later part of the statement. I was under the assumption that by “environmentalist” he speaking specifically to global warming.
Why?
There’s nothing in the initial post that says global warming.
Still curious if you have any details on what natural cycles of the universe heat our planet up. I mean, you do know the solar cycle theory for global warming has been thoroughly debunked, right?
Shane -
I will come to you if I ever need open heart surgery. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution
Coal, coal, coal.
But surely, just because the glacier started receding at the same time we started burning coal on an industrial scale, pumping cubic miles of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is just obvious proof that there’s no link between cars and global warming, and therefore humans aren’t responsible for anything!
Do you really believe that 7.000.000.000 people on this Earth has no influence on global warming?
Also, global warming is global, it changes weather patterns and could even result in some places to cool down faster. And it is not a single event. Even if sunspots causes a bit warming that does not exclude humans to also cause global warming. On the human level we have control.
Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
— 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Koran 11.26: “That you shall not serve any but Allah, surely I fear for you the punishment of a painful day.”
There, did me quoting scripture at you work? Going to become a Muslim to avoid the ‘punishment of a painful day’?
No?
Funny, that.
Laurel -
If our position is a result of being under a strong God sent delusion we wouldn’t know it. So it’s useless to point it out. Unless, of course, your god isn’t really all that strong and you said that more for yourself.
If god were to be sending out a “strong delusion” in order to deceive people then I must say, what a prick.
PS – I thought satan was supposed to be the great deceiver and such. Apparently he’s just the student.
I once experienced a “strong delusion”. I read the Holey Libel.
Yay! Another drive-by True Christian ™ who thinks none of us have ever, EVER read the Wholly Babble before! Congratulations, Laurel, for certainly no one has ever quoted the Bible at an atheist before–and certainly not on the Internet! You totally winz teh Intarwebs with your insightful and cogent deployment of a passage from a collection of writings based on the fevered imaginations of a bunch of goat herders and social malcontents! Why, I think you should get a Nobel Prize or a VMA or an Espy!
But chances are that you, the True Christian ™ that you are, won’t grace us with your scintillating presence anymore. And that saddens me. No, truly, it does, for I always find it fascinating to understand why people who use telephones, computers, and avail themselves of modern medicine retreat into the storehouse of religious mythologies that were concocted when we thought the world was flat and mental illness was a sign of demon possession.
about 1800 different possible religions on this world. Choose the wrong one and you will burn in hell!
Your chance is 0.05% that you are in the correct religion and not burn in hell.
Maybe it’s just me, but I think Laurel may have been calling bu11$h1t on the Christianists.
Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion (Christianist BS), to make them believe what is false (Greed is good – waste the planet), so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth (Gotta take care of the good green Earth) but had pleasure in unrighteousness (Christianist BS/Greed).
Of course, I could be wrong, and she’s just another Christianist under a strong delusion.
Meh. Darth Papa can suck it. Loser.
Well he’s not the only one blaming non-believers for the world’s ills — Tony Blair has tried to pin the blame on materialism caused by “allow aggressive secularism in part of the West to gain traction”. Surprised he could find the time as he was staying with his billionaire chum Larry Ellison on a rather large yacht.
John Derbyshire, unless you consider Muslims a threat to the environment, in which case he is very concerned.
“But it’s just stupid to think that our environmental problems stem from atheism, when everyone knows it stems from denying the Flying Spaghetti Monster, bless His Holy Noodle.”
This is wrong. Environmental problems certainly do not “stem” from belief in a god or gods, though they may be exacerbated or mitigated by religion depending on creed and circumstances. Study the environmental history of the Soviet Union and you will see that I am right.
You obviously consider the God/Atheist debate to be very important. But it simply isn’t part of most people’s mental furniture on a day-to-day basis. Probably, most despoilers of the environment aren’t consciously atheist or consciously Christian most of the time. They may be nominally Christian, but that hardly makes a difference. For example, the coastal waters of Japan are in arguably worse shape than ours. You’re argument demands that you blame Taoism or Buddhism, and that is just ridiculous.
Environmental problems stem from human nature and its nonmetaphysical desire for wealth and comfort, not atheism or religion.
Somebody’s sarcasm detector seems to be broken.
Whoops. I misread the quoted line.
What is sad to me is that the green movement just like many others seems to have a dividing line. What do we do to cross or eradicate that line so that all are responsible?
This pope is such a pathetic buffoon it is hard to even look at him. If he had the slightest clue what a hypocrite he was he would melt down that solid gold alter he says incantations over and either feed the poor and suffering of this world or donate to causes that help the environment. They have over 4 billion dollars in their bank. Put your money where your mouth is. I have a feeling if Jesus saw such greed and blatant hypocrisy he would spit in the pope’s face. Does he not recall the story of how Jesus stormed the temple and threw over the money changers desks? Any visit to the Vatican – where I’ve been – should instantly cause utter disgust for such an institution propped up by the ignorant sheep of the world. No humility, no shame for such public display of gold, wealth, power and worldly riches. I mentioned this to my brother and he said it’s all for the honor and glory of God. I said what would the creator of the universe care for gold, marble, and vast, vast reserves of money? Melt that god damn alter down and feed Somalia!!!