Ryan sent in this question:
So I’m on the interwebz and I see that the Mormons are giving away free bibles. Now i decide to go for it (sue me…I’m a cheap Ukrainian), and lo and behold I get a message from an “elder” who quite honestly sounds so young his balls must still dropping. He wants to come over and spread the good news, get to know me, and all that. In the event that I invite him over, are there some questions that I should ask him? Besides are you guys really that nuts?
What are your favorite questions for Mormons?
Just try and get him to tell you the weirder Mormon stuff.
What’s up with polygamy?
Is it true I can become a god?
Were did the races come from?
What’s wrong with polygamy?
Paul are you nuts? One wife can be too much, you want more?
You aren’t married are you?
8)
It’s definitely not for everyone, and like most worthwhile endeavors it requires a lot of work, but polyamory can also be enormously rewarding. :-)
I’d ask them, if men were allowed to marry multiple women (technically they aren’t permitted to in the modern LDS), why weren’t women also allowed to marry multiple men? Or for that matter, why isn’t a Mormon man allowed to marry even one other man?
Guys, polygamy is not only for men, unless you are a mormon or a muslim.
1) Do you honestly believe that there was a Jewish empire in North America 2000 years ago, with great cities, armies and battles, despite their being no historical or archaeological evidence for it and despite the fact that it manifestly is not true?
2) Do you genuinly believe that Jo Smith really found and read a great big book made of gold through a magical transalting stone (coincidentally at the same time the Rosetta Stone was in the news, by the way) and that an “angel” whisked both book and stones off to heaven afterwards, leaving no trace but the stories of a cult leader of questionable sanity?
3) Are you honestly going to sit their and pretend that your beliefs are anything other that utterly, utterly ludicrous?
Got to ask them about the magic underwear.
Argh, you beat me to it. Definitely ask about the magic underwear. Hell, ask if you could get a pair.
“Magic underwear?!? Sweet! Come on back here and show it to me.”
Yes, if this elder is cute at all definitely ask him to show you his underwear!
When he hesitates ask him if he has ever had a male/male sexual experience.
When he says no ask which type of gay sex he fantasizes about the most.
Does your underwear really protect you from evil?? Swords?? Bullets??
Nah, just critical thought
I invited some Mormons over to talk about their faith once. I told them that I was a skeptic and that they should bring their A-game.
They brought three guys, including one “edgy” new convert, who I could tell really didn’t have any experience with apologetics, or even, it seemed, defending their faith to nonbelievers. Surprisingly, they wouldn’t even take the green tea I offered them, which is a shame – sipping tea might have given them an excuse for not keeping up with the conversation.
They really flailed about on my favourite points to debate with mormons; the “prophetic” nature of their church’s leaders, the nature of prophecy itself, and the absolute lack of anything resembling archeological evidence for Joseph Smith’s claims about advanced North American city-states.
Needless to say, their answers were less than convincing. They decided to leave rather than directly answer my questions about their church’s position/doctrine regarding homosexuality. All in all, not a very endearing experience.
Don’t forget to ask about the white salamander…
if you find out about the white salamander please let me know… cuz i’ve been mormon my whole life and have never heard of such a thing
The book of Mormon claims that the Jewish colony in the new world had: Chariots, glass beads, metal coins, metal swords, and horses.
No evidence has ever been found that prior to the Spanish conquering South America ANY of those things existed.
No wheels. No glass. No coins of any kind. No metal swords (the Incas were still using glass arrow and spear tips), and of course, the Spanish brought the first horses here.
My question is: “Jesus preaching to the peoples of America is the basis for Joseph Smith’s ‘other gospel’, in which most of his doctrine for the Mormons is laid out. If he couldn’t be trusted to say even one verifiable fact about these cultures, how can we trust that any of his testimony is true?”
I should clarify that “no glass” means “no blown glass”.
They did not form glass into beads. They used volcanic glass as weapons, though.
and of course, the Spanish brought the first horses here.
Well, horses existed in the New World in pre-historic times (3 million years ago) but most certainly went extinct before the era of the Book of Mormon.
They were also too small to ride or hitch chariots to.
When the angel took away the magic book he also cleared away all the archeological evidence for the advanced Jewish civilazation in north america in order to test the faith of morons.
Convenient, isn’t it?
Ask him he thinks that Scientologists are nuts, too. That way you can share some common ground.
Ask them whether or not Mohammed was genuinely inspired by Allah to write the Koran. How can one tell genuine revelation from delusion or pious fraud?
And then, how does one tell delusion or pious fraud from a cynical bid to use peoples’ gulibility for profit (power, influence, cash, babes, etc.)?
Did Mohamed, that famour illiterate camel dealer, fly to heaven on a winged horse, memorise the Q’ran as it was dictated to him by Allah and then return to Earth to write it all down (despite being illiterate)?
*Shakes the Magic 8 Ball*
“All signs point to NO”.
Muhammed (PBUH) wasn’t dictated the holy Qu’ran by Allah, it was an angel. Also it happened over several conversations, not one sitting.
(I’m not a muslim, but I like people to get their facts right)
If you want to get your facts right, you should say Mohammed WASN’T dictated jack-shit by anybody, he made the whole shebang up.
If you’re not a Muslim, why bother writing ‘peace be upon him’ after Muhammed’s name…? I think the guy himself might have preferred ’9-yr-old girls be upon him’ instead anyway.
I think if a person can honestly consider the question “how can you compare the veracity of supernatural claims; why was Jesus a divinely-inspired prophet but Mohammad was a diabolically-motivated charlatan and Siddhārtha Gautama was a well-meaning but confused nobody?”, then that person would not be religious. Maybe I’m wrong.
They know the Book of Mormon is divine revelation. How? They just do. Duh.
(Or: the same way they know the Bible is divine revelation.)
Story 1: Invisible sky fairy give an impressive show to a tribe of bronze age nomads telling them they’re his chosen and that they should kill all other neighbouring tribes and take their stuff. He also tell them to chop the tip of their penis and not eat pork.
Story 2: Invisible sky fairy get himself reincarnated as human by knocking up some chick (who nevertheless is still a virgin) so he can be killed as a sacrifice to himself so he can forgive humans for falling into the trap he set for them.
Story3: Invisible sky fairy send a dude with wings to dictate a magic book to an ilitirete camel trader/bandit. He also give him a flying horse and tell him its OK to kill everyone who wont follow him and take their stuff (once again cut end of penis and no pork).
Story 4: An iiterete convicted felon finds a magic book and translate it using magic stones learning about an ancient developed civilasation that somehow left nofisical evidence. a winged dude (not the same one from the previous story) take the book away once its translated.
Story 5: Evil alien ruler kills a lot of people who’s spirits are inhibiting people. A mediocre science fiction writer learns about it and will tell you everything if you give him a lot of cash.
Can you really say one is more or less redicoulus then the others?
LOL.. Awesome! =)
You can’t defend one without defending all the others.
he he – misspelling illiterate is cool for lulz
I’ll use the english is not my first language and I’m way to lazy to run a spell check defense on this one.
They thought the Garden of Eden was outside of KC in Jackson County, MO. Doesn’t that kind of sum it up, aliens and uber-fabulous underpants aside?
Same questions I ask all believers:
What is the purpose of faith? Why is it necessary to believe in God for salvation while he hides from the world? If he does not show himself how can we be doomed for disbelief? Don’t accept “free will” as an answer. Adam & Eve knew him and used free will to disobey.
Question of evil. Why do animals suffer? For Eve’s sin? How can that be just?
Same with original sin.
Asking a mormon that first question wont work, they believe that he does show himself, through the holy spirit.
Weird that you would treat all believers as Xtians, but in a Xtian mindset, animals do not suffer as they have no soul.
And god is not just, because he works on a moral code that is incomprehensible to mankind.
(I’m not mormon/Xtian)
back when I was married to a mormon and the missionaries came over, I enjoyed playing with them, but every time I refused to ‘beleive in the bible’ they were always flummoxed
I like asking how the women are going to feel being pregnant for eternity.
Ask them if they have to circumcised? Can you shave or trim body hair? If they say no ask what about for sport? Did Stephanie Meyer plant secret mormon ideology in her twilight books? HAs the book of mormon been updated like the bible with new grammar and words? If your all called elder, how do you tell each other apart in big groups, does everyone look up when they hear the word elder? Are vaccinations okay and can they cure illness the way the evangelicals do? Are you against gay and lesbians, or just gays? Can you still talk to friends if their not mormon? If your already married, do you have to get remarried? Do you have to special things to pray? Have you have ever tried caffeine, alcohol, sex etc? How did you relate to your religion after it happened? Does God judge you poorly if you have good intentions? What positions can you have sex in? Can you still use the kama sutra? Is there a devil in your faith and if so, what does he offer? What dietary restrictions are there? If I watch a movie you pick, will you watch a movie I pick? (than pick religuous or latter days) Ak very specific questions about sex and the proper way to raise children? Most missionaries are young, they get uncomfortable talking about sex and children? Take advantage of that
Other ways to mess with them…
Turn the heat up encourage them to relax, offer water or tea, if water make sure its a little warm, with the pitcher nearby. Get them sweaty. Their pants and special undies get uncomfortable in the heat.
Answer door wet and in a towel. Invite them in, say youll be back in sec and on your way to get dressed drop the back of your towel so they can see shaving cream on your ass. This one takes planning.
Answer door and invite the hot one in, when the other tries to enter, say not you. And wink at the hot one. Give hot one your number say call if they want explore other sides of life.
Lay out bibles, korans, talmuds, buddhist philosophy and richard dawkins on your table. Look at them expectantly and say shall we begin. Either really debate them taking turns, pass them another book and say defend your argument with this book instead.
Play parables. Take random religious texts and discuss meaning of different passages with them. Encourage the to form their own thoughts on the different passages
Preach Flying spaghetti monster back at them. Keep offering pasta.
Ask them if they want to make some money on the side as “models.” Pat a video camera while doing so.
non stop babble at them for hours, watch them get bored and frustrated
This one is kind of cruel and manipulative. Pretend your devastated at the recent loss of a partner. Ask questions about their afterlife, if your loved will be there in heaven. Can you still be married even if their dead. In the mormon church you can. Than ask about accidental deaths.
Play secret agent. Rush them inside, look around. Close the door, lock it. Ask if anyone saw them. While talking keep glancing around, peeking through the blinds. Give it a few minutes than ask if “Joseph Smith traveled across the USA for what purpose? Wait for a response. Relax and say good. Ask how their mission is going. Did they get what they were looking for? Ask for the book? Open it, than freak out, asking where the chips/documents/usb drive etc is? Fake shock about discovering they weren’t your contacts. Ask how they felt about signing the Official Secrets Act? When a car drives by, freak out again, saying they have to go. That they saw and heard nothing. say your doing it to protect them. Rush them out door, say go somewhere busy and public for a few hours. Lock the door, wait 3 minutes, than rush out to your car, zip out your garage etc. In a big rush with a large suitcase. When you drive by them, scream, ‘RUN”
That last paragraph is made of 24-karat win.
no you do not have to be circumcised and yes you can shave or cut body hair. elder is the office of the priesthood they hold. in a large group they would refer to elder, and then the last name…. makes me wonder though, what if the last name is elder…would it be elder elder? dunno. never came across one. the church has nothing against vaccinations or health care. the church is against homosexuality of any kind. i have pleanty of close friends that are not mormon, and no i don’t intend to convert them all. i am respectful of other beliefs just as they are respectful of mine, and no we are not forbid to talk to each other. i have had a person tell me that his pastor forbid him to talk to me on the basis that i was mormon though…if you were already married before joining the church, you can have a temple sealing as well if you choose to do so. the caffiene thing is controversial even in the church. official doctorine says no coffee or tea. some members however choose not to have caffeine at all (which is interesting cuz some of those have no issue with chocolate). and yes, missionaries probably would be uncomfortable talking about sex as most have never had it. i say most because one of my brother’s companions on his mission was a convert to the church and did things before hand., and there are also those that have made mistakes but have since repented. sex positions are at the discression of husband and wife and what they feel is right. and, there is no “official secrets act”. if those other things amuse you, go right ahead. they’ll go home laughing, and probably relate the story in a letter to their mother
The Official Secret Acts refers to a document under which most commonwealth countries utilize to keep state secrets. The idiots translations comes down to “you have discovered a secret that your gov’t wishes to keep quiet. By signing this document you agreeing that the gov’t should keep this secret. That if you reveal this secret you have knowledge of you will be prosecuted, up to and including high treason.” I would assume that you yanks have one as well.
Also i am glad they feel close enough to their mother share such stories. Also all those questions I have asked and received responses to. Some of their answers are different than yours by the way. They’re legitimate questions and a good way to find out about someones religion.
I have also used each of those other ideas below them, with differing responses. Would you like photos as proof of the camera one. I got a positive response.
Er….. Not really! I’ve signed the Official Secrets Act maybe half a dozen times in my life. It’s not just civil service that use it, lots of NGOs do too. Basically it means: “There’s a slight chance you might find out some sensitive stuff while you’re doing your job, by signing this you acknowledge that you know you can’t say squat about it or you’ll get delt with extremely harshly”.
That’s about it, really. Of course, for stuff that they really want kept secret, they security clear you, the first level being a Criminal Records Bureaux check, the second being a Counter Terrorist Check, the third being Security Clearance (and then technically SC strapped), and the fourth being Developed Vetting. And that’s not fun at all. It took nine months to be SC cleared in my case because I haven’t seen my father in 21 years and don’t know where he is. Developed Vetting is where the real fun lies, though. It’s the most thorough security check in the world. They send undercover agents to drink in your local pubs, make friends with your friends, chat to familly members and partners, they talk to your ex-partners, they interview all your old school teachers – they end up knowing more about you than you do. I had one friend who worked on nuclear submarines who was asked in a security review meeting “So how long has your mother been in Greenpeace?” Turns out she’d joined before he was even born and they still had access to Greenpeace’s membership lists!
There is no real need to sign the Official Secrets Act as you are bound by it regardless.
Before I became a nursing student I was a civil servant for eight years, including a spell in the intelligence services. They basically make yu sign it like most people shake your hand.
Ask him whether he thinks it was divine intervention or political pressure which caused the church in 1978 to change their 130 years old policy of treating black people as second rate church members who were cursed by the mark of Cain.
You’d think a divinely inspired groups would actually figure things out years before the rest of the world.
Having recently left the Mormon church I’ll let you know the following:
Mormon’s don’t care how much scientific evidence you have against their cause because they will claim to have had “spiritual confirmation” of the truth of it. Not that it will convince them of anything, but I would challenge them on that experience. I like the following question similar to one of Penn Jillette’s.
If you had a equally powerful “spiritual confirmation” telling you to kill your mother would you do it?
Most people who claim to have this experience have never really challenged their “testimony building” experiences. They are so anxious to receive some sort of confirmation that they accept almost anything that could be explained as one. Apologists will explain this question away as saying that God would never tell them to do that (at which point you could bring up Abraham and Isaac).
I tried to pose that question to a friend of mine who was trying to convert me. He refused to consider it reaffirming that we were not, in fact, having a dialogue.
I thought that the missionary training the LDS youth receive made them into Mormon SEALS or Green Berets or something…mormon shock-troops, armed in the deadly skills of proselytizing and able to convert you nineteen different ways with their bare hands. Wrong. They are the infantry, intellectual cannon fodder, and are not equipped for independent thought or action. Don’t waste too much time or effort on them. They can only respond with what they have been programmed to say, and you don’t want the smell of them shorting out in your living room…it takes forever to go away.
I would not bring up all of the rumors and sensational stuff that is listed in the above comments. This is an opportunity to open your mind and find out what Mormons really believe. You will find that the missionaries are not pushy but very informative about what the church is really about. Then you will understand why they think the way that they do.
The missionaries will lay out all of the foundational stuff in a very orderly way. If you listen to all that they have to say, you will learn about prophets, Joseph Smith, who God is, baptism for the dead, personal revelation, faith, tithing, keeping the commandments, what the church meetings are like, the health code and other standards, temples and temple marriage, how they know that it is true, etc. Along the way, you can ask all the questions you want. You can ask about “magic underware” if you want. I would stay away from all the speculative stuff like horses in ancient America and DNA studies. Mormons do not depend on that stuff for their faith and probably would not have much info on it. If you like the speculative stuff, you can find evidence on the internet for either side of the argumment.
would stay away from all the speculative stuff like horses in ancient America and DNA studies.
Ah, the classic Mormon hand-wave. “oh, all that’s just unimportant speculative stuff.”
As one ex-mo put it, “Just let the mishies, apologists, Mormonite faithful take you on the Journey Away from the Promised Land of Evidence. Wander around in the missing bones of horses. Try to figure out if obsidian axes really could be “steel swords”. Spend all your time just ignoring the fact that the essential claim – Golden Plates – are brushed away. Easily. Completely.”
pk, could you point us to, say, the genetical evidence or the archaeological findings that support the extraordinary claims of the book of Mormon?
BTW, funny that you call such rather concrete things such as DNA studies “speculative stuff”. Are they “speculative” because they don’t agree with your book?
If you like the speculative stuff, you can find evidence on the internet for either side of the argumment.
We’ve got a saying: “I found it on the Internet, it must be true.” HInt: this should be recited in a sarcastic tone.
Re: “I would stay away from all the speculative stuff like horses in ancient America and DNA studies. Mormons do not depend on that stuff for their faith and probably would not have much info on it.”
This is pretty much like when the Wizard of Oz said, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.” You cannot have a religion which espouses a bunch of beliefs which are so obviously false that you would explicitly tell people not to pay attention to them, yet still insist on the fundamental veracity of that religion. It just doesn’t work.
If those doctrines are so insignificant, and if Mormons don’t need them, then they have no valid excuse for retaining them … yet, they do nonetheless. This is completely inconsistent with the idea that they’re unimportant. People do not retain and cling to what is so insignificant that they can dispense with it. Because if they could dispense with it, they would.
If you want to defend Mormonism, that’s one thing. But to say that the lunacy which is an integral part of Mormonism should not be viewed as evidence against it, is not only silly, it’s immature … sort of like when a child plugs his ears, closes his eyes, and yammers out loud in order not to see and hear something he doesn’t want to see or hear.
A more mature response would be to say, “You’re right, these things are silly, and I and other rational Mormons plan to take this up with the rest of Mormonism to see if they should not be revised or removed.” THAT is a response that would lend credibility to what you say. Telling others to just ignore them, says exactly the opposite … it betrays that that they ARE, in fact, important enough to be retained in spite of their obvious ludicrousness.
well said PsiCop: “they have no valid excuse for retaining them … yet, they do nonetheless.”
When you say “they have no valid excuse for retaining them” you are correct – to you and me. BUT it provides them with immense comfort. You have no idea how much comfort. What does comfort have to do with reason you may ask. We are humans. We need comfort. We seek it.
I’ll never forget the eyes of my neighbor as she described her “Heavenly Father” with so much passion and so much love. She was entirely in love. He gave her a blanket of pure love that nothing in this earthly world could penetrate. THAT is comfort – and it will never be eradicated by ANY logical argument. As I’ve said before – your logic would be the same as telling her there are 10 minutes in the color yellow. You silly fool you.
Ditto to the above few replies – but also – the missionaries are NOT informative about what the church is all about. Sure they will tell you about a number of the points you mentioned, but they completely leave out some of the most important metaphysical beliefs that Mormons hold. They even hold these “secrets” back from members until certain ceremonies, like the wedding.
It took some serious rapport building, many meetings, and forcing honesty to get missionaries and other church leaders to admit that:
Yes, they believe that god was once a man just like us and it is our ultimate goal to become a god and populate our own planets with our spirit children. (Each time I ask how they feel about the Garden of Eden temptation being quite similar to the ultimate goal of the LDS [eat the fruit - be like god...follow Mormon teachings - be like god] they say, “Hmm I never thought about that.”)
Yes, they believe that Native Americans are Jews – straight from a few of the 12 tribes of Israel – and they came over the Atlantic a long time ago in two arks. (Each time I invoke DNA/Archeological/Anthropological/etc evidence showing that Native Americans descended from peoples on the Asian continent they invoke the classic anit-scientific brush off “we find out science is wrong sometimes.”
It was like pulling teeth to get them to say out loud that they believe these things. It was clear that they knew it was difficult to get people to be okay with the “become a god” and “Jewish Native Americans” stuff – so they gloss over or completely avoid talking about it.
There are more good questions but others are covering them.
there is no such thing as “the church of mormon” “mormon” is a nick name given to the church because of the book of mormon. mormon was the prophet who abridged all of the writings and put it together. he passed it onto his son moroni who finished it up, but the majority was mormon, which is why the name is given to the book. the church is called the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, meaning, the church belongs to jesus christ. not joseph smith, or gordon hinkly, or thomas monson. those were just men chosen to lead it…. just like moses and abraham and all the others in the bible. they lead the church under the direction of jesus christ , through revelation, just like the prophets of the bible
the 12 tribe thing… we are all adopted into one of the 12 tribes when we are baptised. they don’t tell you wich one it is then…. we have a thing called a Patriarichal Blessing. Its consitered a personal road map straight from the big man. A patriarch gives it to you by revelation, and you are asked to fast and pray with him through out the week prior. he then lays his hands on your head and through revelation gives it to you, and it is recorded and you have a copy of it. In that blessing it tells you which tribe you are adopted into. I got mine when I was 13, and looking back, I should have waited until I was older. There isn’t a particular age to get it, just when you think you are ready.
I’m sorry PK, but are you mentally ill? You cannot completely ignore the fact that THE core set of beliefs of the Mormon church are completely, demonstrably, provably, fundamentally WRONG and yet still believe in the message of Joe Smith without some serious mental retardation going on.
On a seperate note: Church of Mormon – a symptom of belief in American exceptionalism?
Custador, I never thought of it that way, but I think you may be on to something…
that said, I’m in New Zealand, and there’s a LDS church just down the road, directly across from a much prettier Anglican one.
Moving in two days! Still going to be close to an Anglican church, but across the city from the Mormons. Flat’s pretty nice, too, so overall a win-win.
The inscribed metal plates (the source of all Mormonism) that the angel Moroni gave somebody (Lehi? Kneehi?), and John Smith supposedly found:…………….
…………….
WHERE ARE THEY?
I thought the angel took them back to heaven after Smith translated them – too dangerous for anyone else to see…
You know, when I asked that on a tour of different edifices in Salt Lake City, that is exactly what the guy who was being the friendly, informative tour guide said.
Exact words: “Oh, he gave them back to Moroni.”
So: this angel hands a guy some writing inscribed on metal that doesn’t corrode, that can last a long time and be read by humans for generations, and provide, if not evidence of an author that’s anything but human, then some kind of real, measurable artifact… and then takes it back after the guy has a gander at it.
Well, you see, it turns out that Moroni sort of borrowed them from God without asking, and he really had to get them back or he would have been in so much trouble…
How about that Mountain Meadows massacre?
Ooh. Too soon?
Is it true that LDS members don’t engage in oral sex? I thought I heard Donny Osmond being interviewed by Howard Stern on the radio a decade ago or so and Donny said he had never received oral including from his wife.
That’s a reason to deconvert right there.
sex is to be practiced how you and your spouse feel is right, and approved by God….. if that includes oral, okay.
Ryan sounds so young his “balls must still dropping.” The Mormons have always given away their bibles.
An evangelical coworker told me that Joseph Smith died in jail. Is that true?
After smashing the presses of a newspaper that was printing unfavorable news about the mormons, Joseph and Hyram were jailed. They were visited by several of the church heirarchy at least one of which was armed. A lynch mob (probably made up of members of the Illinois national guard) stormed the jail perhaps with the jailers’ cooperation, and entered the second story jail cell. Joseph jumped out the window and was shot to death as he lay on the ground below. I think Hyram was killed in the jail cell.
I guess he was technically still on prison property, so I’m gonna say yes. Thanks for the info!
I was once approached a young man on our campus shortly after 9/11. His main argument was that he felt it in his heart. I posited that the 9/11 attackers felt things in their hearts, too, and I wasn’t willing to accept that as valid proof of anything. The look on his face was precious, you could see the wheels were turning in his head, and the steam rising. It may have been the first time he was ever challenged to think for himself. Another time I was approached by one of two young ladies while the other was busy with another “pigeon”. I confronted her with Joseph Smith’s previous history as a con artist, marrying Emma Hale to get her father to drop charges. The same “seer’s stone” that he used to interpret the tablets were used to find Indian gold, and he’d flee town with the finder’s fee before the digging started. His accuracy as a prophet was so piss poor,that his brother Hyram said that one in ten is a good percentage. An analysis of the D&C and other writings shows significantly BELOW ten percent. The other young lady joined us. She was perhaps Indonesian or Philippino. She wore the most hideously crystal blue contact lenses that I’ve ever seen, and I suspect she was ashamed of her genetic heritage and her brown eyes. I pointed out that the church did not even consider her a human being until 1978. At that point the first partner “realized” that it was time for them to leave and she pushed her mate away up the street before she could protest.
But obviously the feeling in the heart of guy who talked to you came from the true god while the 9/11 bombers were deluded to think that they felt the true but it was just indigestion.
You see problem solved.
“If the feelings in your heart are so trustworthy, why didn’t you try to warn anyone?”
Here’s my question for Mormons:
What’s with the Grand Council which your religion says took place, which I supposedly took part in, and at which I consented to God’s Plan of Salvation? How do you Mormons know I attended, and that I agreed to it? I don’t recall having been there, and to date, no one has provided the slightest speck of evidence I attended this Council … much less that I agreed to anything. What makes you think you can speak for me and tell me I agreed to something which, in fact, you have zero evidence I had the slightest thing to do with?
For the record I’ve had a couple of Mormons take a swipe at this. Their answer is, basically, “The Prophet said you were there, so you were, and you did agree to it, and that’s the end of it, you godless heathen you.” That, of course, completely ignores the question of how “the Prophet” happens to know this when no one else apparently does, and it also ignores why neither I nor anyone else (except the Prophet) can seem to recall being at this Council and agreeing to anything.
in a nutshell…. we were( still are) all children of God. God, Jesus and Micheal (adom) created the earth. God had a plan that we would come to earth to learn and be tested, and to get a body and become more like him. (the belief is that God has a body of flesh and bones) Part of the test was to see if we would choose to follow him. if we did, we could come back to live with him. if not, we couldn’t. He knew we weren’t perfect, so he needed someone to go down and be an example and show us the way. 2 volenteers. Jesus and Lucifer. Jesus would allow us to use our free will, and Lucifer would force us. God chose Jesus. Lucifer became angry and it started a war. we all had to choose who we wanted to follow. 1/3 chose to follow Lucifer and were cast out and would never get a body. Those that chose Jesus, came, and had a body. based on that belief, you’re here, you have a body, you chose Jesus, and the plan of salvation
Excuse me, but I didn’t chose Jesus. Even if all you’ve just said is true, I would never have chosen Jesus – I would have rejected God outright for being a sick, twisted player of games with peoples’ lives.
THAT’S why your religion is so hugely offensive – you presume to know what choices other people have made, even when they tell you otherwise. That and the whole post-mortem conversion thing. “Baptising” Jewish holocaust victims and claiming them as Mormons?! You guys are SICK.
Lucifer became angry and it started a war. we all had to choose who we wanted to follow. 1/3 chose to follow Lucifer and were cast out and would never get a body.
Seriously, it’s like reading the world-building from a fantasy story. Is Peanut going to go all “Book of Enoch” on us and explain how the spirits who followed Lucifer became demons who mislead us and cause us to be atheists?
“Those that chose Jesus, came, and had a body. based on that belief, you’re here, you have a body, you chose Jesus, and the plan of salvation”
LOL. Asshat.
People born without limbs, did they only choose some of Jesus?
This is particularity stupid. Pick out a simple common fact and then childishly claim its proof of your beliefs. It’s just like saying, “Fire is hot, therefore you chose Satan”.
Shouldn’t that be “lol. asshat.”?
Not to mention stillborn children – they have a body, yet are born dead. What did those babies choose, peanut?
anybody who came to earth chose to follow God’s plan of salvation. A stillborn, or even a miscairrage recieved a body. My mom told me one time that those people were very valient in the pre-existence and they just needed to have a body. I’d have to find out if that is official church doctorine. However, 8 years old is the age of accountability. That means that that is the age that you know the difference between right and wrong. Anybody who dies before age 8 is not accountable for any wrong doings they may have done… and of course babies can’t do anything wrong. So, they do not need to be baptised or judged because they are not accountable… anybody 8 or older will need to be baptised either in this life or the next. I am not trying to convert anybody here, if you all choose to be athiest or whatever you refer to yourself as, that is totally fine. I see questions and misconceptions and I am just trying to clarify. I assume that by some of these comments you are a lil bit curious about what Mormons believe and why, other wise there wouldn’t be any reason for some of this stuff. My only motive here is to answer questions and clear up any misconceptions, as there are many. I’m not here to argue, or to prove anything to you. I’m not going to damn you to hell or anything because you choose not to have a faith or “be Mormon” that is not my place, and I don’t have the authority to do that. The only one who has that authority is God himself, and he judges you against yourself, and he will judge fairly. If you don’t want to believe in a God, that’s fine, it is your choice. If you believe in a different God, that is your choice as well.
I have to take issue with one particular point, and I’d like to then roll that into a question. You keep making reference to “choosing” not to believe in God or it being a choice to believe in a different god. That’s not accurate.
For any sane person, belief is not a matter of choice. Either the evidence supporting an idea seems credible or it doesn’t. Volition plays no part. I could no more choose to believe in God than you could choose to believe in Horus or the Easter Bunny. Sure, you can profess a belief, attend church, and otherwise go through the motions, but if an idea doesn’t stand up to scrutiny then no amount of wishing is going to change that. I would think that a god would prefer someone to be honest about their beliefs than to reward someone for being deceptive and pretending to believe.
Which brings me to my question. Supposing your God does exist, how could he pass judgment on someone who examines the evidence supporting his existence and doesn’t find it to be compelling?
you have to have faith…. faith is the belief in somehting that may not be hard evidence pointing to. one story in particular in the Book of Mormon. It starts out with this family from Jerusalem told to leave because it was going to be destroyed because of the wickedness (later it was taken over by the Babyloneans) So the family leaves, and then the father has a dream that the sons need to go back and get the brass plates from the head hauncho in Jerusalem. In the brass plates were the 5 books of Moses… so the portion of the Bible that had been written. Of these sons, there were 2 that believed what their dad taught and the other 2 could care less, and wined and complained the whole way. when they were outside Jerusalem they basically drew straws to see who would go in. One of the naughty kids got that one… he went in, and got chased out and threatened with death, and he was pretty pissed off at his brother… I mean who wouldn’t be? So then he gets a stick and starts beating the crap out of him ( I know… who needs saturday morning cartoons with this stuff). Well, an angel comes and goes “What are ya doin that for? Don’t you know that he’s gonna be your ruler one day?” and of course big brother is totally taken back at this… I mean an ANGEL!!! well, long story short, they get the plates with the help of God and go back and eventually make it to the promised land. (aka american continent) Well, despite this undeniable proof and what he had seen, and its not like he was the only one so he could be out of it…. They all saw him. and despit this, he still did not believe, and continued to be a naughty kid, because he had no faith…. thats a huge issue with any church, is you have to have faith that there is a God
Peanut you have to have faith in Joseph Smith! You have to have faith in Muhammad! You have to have faith in Mary Eddy Baker! You have to have faith in Baha’u'llah, Charles Fillmore, Sun Myung Moon, David Keresh, Victor Paul Wierwille, L. Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones, Jesus, and Zoroaster! Come on peanut, get some faith!
you’re right. I do have to have faith. Either Joseph Smith saw what he said he did, or he didn’t. Either Jesus is real, and God is real, or they aren’t. Theres no inbetween, and no fence sitting. Either Thomas Monson is the living prophet today, or he isn’t…. that is something that you have to figure out for yourself. I happen to believe that they are all real and who they say (said) they are. You don’t, ok. I’m cool with that
I’ve corrected your post for you:
“you’re right. I do have to have faith. Either Joseph Smith saw what he said he did, or he didn’t. Either Jesus is real, and God is real, or they aren’t. Theres no inbetween, and no fence sitting. Either Thomas Monson is the living prophet today, or he isn’t…. that is something that you have to figure out for yourself. I happen to believe that they are all real and who they say (said) they are. You don’t, ok. I’m an idiot”
Are all the lessons about half the characters being naughty and not listening to what they are told and the other half are good?
And did the angel really assume the the kid knew his brother would be a ruler some day? Just come out and tell me, angel. Don’t you know I’m a human and can’t tell the future?
Wait, wait, wait… I was under the impression that LDS folks didn’t believe in a hell. Which holds the following message that I think is quite nice – has a hint of metaphysical logic – and could serve other ‘Christ-based’ religions well: Jesus was/is powerful enough that his death was enough to grant salvation to all mankind. The whole point of the suicide mission! So we all get saved from eternal torture (whew), but you have to get a few of the rules right to get the best deal after you die. From what I remember…(dreamy, wavey lines and flashback harp music)
There are 3 levels of “Heaven.”
The highest has your LDS peeps. In other words, white people who were baptized, married in a Mormon temple, fulfilled a lot of other sacred rights (or conditions) and kept it real as Mormons should; that is, they “Chose The Right” – This is where Heavenly Father (Adam) resides, presumably with the Heavenly Mother and all the other hot ladies he probably keeps around to fulfill what he said back when Joseph Smith (and many after him) was relaying messages about plural marriages, and so that he can keep pounding out spirit children, populating worlds. Look at all the work he’s put in already – we are pushing 7 billion on this planet alone!
The middle level is Christians – mostly protestants – good ones. Super prudes. Could have gotten into the top level and kicked it with God if they would have bought the story the elders were preaching. Oh, and believed Native Americans were Jews and also got married in a special temple. Note: Jesus has enough power to keep hell relatively empty, but he can’t perform a solid marriage ceremony (sealing) outside of designated rooms. I’m thinking you’ll find Martin Luther King Jr. here, unless they gave him a pass cause he was awesome enough (although being Black isn’t getting you too many bonus points with the LDS, the whole Cain Stain and all).
And on the lowest level of heaven is nearly everyone else. They won’t say Hitler gets in here – and you’ll probably get stopped at the door if you raped or murdered someone. But I’ll bet there are a few killers in there that were really sorry. Strangely, I’m thinking Ghandi, Einstein, Anne Frank, and Tom Cruise will be hanging out on the ground floor; weird. I would also guess most of the agnostic/atheist folks that frequent this site will find each other here; you know, if the Mormons are right.
Hitler and such will be “separated from Heavenly Father forever.” Not tortured forever, just isolated. I picture absolute nothingness except for your ego (soul). You know that you are in nothingness, you know where everyone else is, but you have nothing. No sight, sound, body – nothing. I suppose it is a type of torture, just doesn’t sounds as bad as the Hell we usually hear about.
So peanut – am I wrong about this interpretation (sarcasm and playful jabs aside)? Is there a Hell in the LDS faith that I am not aware of?
I suppose it is another question for the apple faced elders that come to your door.
you are correct on the three levels of “heaven” but a lil confused on who goes where. there is an “outer darkness” which i guess would be hell. those that go there are the ones that had a perfect knowledge of God and then denied it. refered to as the sons/daughters of perdition. i guess according to that, judas and Peter would be here, but I’m not God, and I didn’t judge, so I guess I’ll have to wait and see. The highest level is the Celestial Kingdom. God and Jesus are here. (God is not Adom) Those who did everything that was asked of them and lead a faithful life, kept they’re promises and all those things will be here. The second kingdom is the Terristrial kingdom. Those that had a good life but didn’t quite do everything that they could and still didn’t quite accept God and Jesus are here. Jesus visits this kingdom. the last kingdom is the Telestial kingdom, and the unrepentant go here. The Holy ghost vistis this kingdom. It was once explained to me like this. There are 3 kids in the house and mom goes to the store and tells the kids that if they have their rooms cleaned up when she gets home, she will have something for them. The first kid gets right to work, dusts the window seals, makes the bed, vacuumes, puts everything in its place. the second kid decides he’s going to screw around a bit and then see’s mom coming home down the street and quickly rushes to the bedroom, shoves things under the bed, tidies up a little bit. the 3rd kid completely blows mom off and doesnt do any of it. Mom comes home with a king sized candy bar, a regualr candy bar and a mini candy bar. who does she award each candy bar to?
I also forgot to add, doesn’t matter what color you are, if you meet the standard, you’ll be at the top. We believe we are punished for our own sins and not for adoms transgressions… so no all the blacks aren’t being punished for Cain, and we’re not living in what I have heard being referred to as the origional sin. We come to earth with a clean slate. Once we are at the age of accountability (8) we are held responsible for our own sins, unless we repent. If we don’t repent, we may not end up where we want to.
Hi peanut and thanks for responding.
Re: “in a nutshell…. we were( still are) all children of God.”
You know this … how, exactly?
Re: “God, Jesus and Micheal (adom) created the earth.”
You know this … how, exactly? Were you there?
Re: “God had a plan that we would come to earth to learn and be tested, and to get a body and become more like him.”
What conceivable logical reason could an omnipotent and omniscient God have to “test” anyone or anything? Would he not “know” inherently what it’s capable of, already, without a “test”? Moreover, if he wanted people to “become more like him,” why did he not manufacture us that way, right from the start? Could not an omnipotent being have created us that way? If so, why not, and how then would he not be something less than omnipotent?
Re: “(the belief is that God has a body of flesh and bones) Part of the test was to see if we would choose to follow him. if we did, we could come back to live with him. if not, we couldn’t.”
Again, you posit a need by God to “test” us, without first specifying how or why any “testing” would be needed by an omnipotent and omniscient being such as God.
Re: “He knew we weren’t perfect, so he needed someone to go down and be an example and show us the way.”
Again, you posit that we are “not perfect,” but that God wished us to be “perfect,” without first explaining why an omnipotent being could not have created us “perfect” right at the outset.
Re: “2 volenteers. Jesus and Lucifer.”
Why just 2? Why not more? For that matter, why not only 1?
Re: :Jesus would allow us to use our free will, and Lucifer would force us.”
What, exactly, does “free will” have to do with God? Why would “free will” matter in the least to an omniscient being who already knows what everyone will do in every circumstance merely by virtue of his omnipotence?
Re: “God chose Jesus. Lucifer became angry and it started a war.”
When? Where? How? Was this “war” chronicled by anyone involved … as many human wars were? What primary sources have you worked from to determine the course of this war?
Re: “we all had to choose who we wanted to follow.”
Really? I don’t recall having made any choice. Please describe when, where, and how I made that choice. Did I sign any agreements or contracts in the process? If so, please produce copies.
Re: “1/3 chose to follow Lucifer and were cast out and would never get a body.”
Is there any particular point to “having a body”? Why is it a big deal, to these 1/3 who followed Lucifer, or to God who imposed this penalty on them? Please explain.
Re: “Those that chose Jesus, came, and had a body. based on that belief, you’re here, you have a body, you chose Jesus, and the plan of salvation”
So you’re just ASSUMING I made this choice, and your sole evidence is that I have a body. However, assumptions are never a good idea. They often fail to hold up. To quote Felix Unger from The Odd Couple, when you “assume,” you make an “ass” out of “u” and “me.”
If you want me to believe I participated in this conference and agreed to follow Jesus, there is only one way to do so … and that is to produce objective, verifiable evidence that I did. That I have a body is only evidence that … well … I have a body. It demonstrates nothing else whatever.
Since you took the time to respond initially, I expect you have this evidence. Please produce it. Thank you.
again, I am not going to argue with you, or try to prove anything to you, but I will answer a few of your questions… you want to know what Mormons believe, so I will tell you. I’m not asking you to join.
I know these things through 23+ years of attending church, reading the scriptures, and manifestation of the Holy Ghost…. Who knows? maybe I was there…. that lil detail weather I was there or not doesn’t really effect anything…. and for the record, nobody remembers pre-earth life. We passed through a vail of forgetfullness when we were born… Which is why there is no memory, and most of us don’t see ghosts (as the spirit prison is here) wouldn’t be much point of testing us to follow God if we remembered everything would there?
You are right… God could have made us perfect, and he does know us so well, that he does have an idea of what we will choose. He knows us better than he knows ourselves… this test is for our good. not His. Do you have children? Once they grow to have some independence, do you continue to spoon feed them, pick their close and dress them? do you do go school for them to take their classes and do their homework for them? No.. because you want them to grow and be able to do it themselves…. why do we kick our children out of the house after a certain time? because they need to grow up and learn for themselves and better themselves. Before we came, we grew to some maturity, but it was time to test our wings and fly on our own, to learn and grow more. God could have made us mature perfect beings just like him. But it was better that we learn for ourselves and choose for ourselves. Do you make choices for your kids past the point they are able to make them themselves? no? why? Yes he knows what we will choose because he knows us so well. But the important thing is that we will return to him because we want to . Not because somebody is forcing a spoon down our throat… or yanking on our chain. As far as the choice that you made in the pre-existance, you would not be here if you weren’t in favor of the plan to choose for yourself. You would have been cast out with Lucifer and his followers. We were spirit children. We wanted a body so that we could become more like God…. There may have been more than 2 volunteers, but we are told that there were specifically those 2.
Re: “again, I am not going to argue with you, or try to prove anything to you, but I will answer a few of your questions… you want to know what Mormons believe, so I will tell you. I’m not asking you to join.”
The topic of this post was “What questions do you have for Mormons?” I posed some, and followed up your initial answers with some more of my own. My questions are sincere. I do not assume you would be trying to “convert” me. I am, however, asking questions which I honestly have, about Mormonism.
Re: “and for the record, nobody remembers pre-earth life. We passed through a vail of forgetfullness when we were born…”
That’s very convenient, isn’t it? Mormonism gets to tell me I did something, but is curiously absolved of the task of having to demonstrate it. Sorry but that isn’t going to wash, not in the bathtub of logic anyway.
Re: “You are right… God could have made us perfect, and he does know us so well, that he does have an idea of what we will choose.”
You have, in one simple sentence, just obviated this whole “testing” scheme and rendered it not only useless but superfluous.
Re: “He knows us better than he knows ourselves… this test is for our good. not His.”
How?
Re: “Do you have children? Once they grow to have some independence, do you continue to spoon feed them, pick their close and dress them?”
I do not have children, but even if I did, the comparison is not apt. For reasons you’ll find explained on this Web page, comparing God to human parents, collapses utterly due to God’s omnipotence. He made human beings as they are … including their psychological nature. Human parents did not devise the psychology of their own children, however, and therefore are limited in how they can raise them. God, being omnipotent, has no such limitation.
Re: “God could have made us mature perfect beings just like him.”
And the reason he did not, is … what, exactly?
Re: “But it was better that we learn for ourselves and choose for ourselves.”
Why is that? Why did he not simply manufacture us with whatever it is he wanted us to know, built in to our natures? Why did he require that we “learn” it over time? It was not necessary to do that. So why did he?
Re: “Do you make choices for your kids past the point they are able to make them themselves? no? why?”
Again, comparing God to human parents is logically invalid. It falls apart under the weight of God’s omnipotence.
Re: “But the important thing is that we will return to him because we want to . Not because somebody is forcing a spoon down our throat… or yanking on our chain.”
Why, exactly, would this matter to an omnipotent, omniscient being? You are ascribing to him a very human need to be “loved” or “chosen” by his creations. But an omnipotent, omniscient God is NOT a human being with a need to be stroked psychologically. He is self-satisfied. He needs nothing from us, not even our regard. So … please explain why he still needs this? Is he somehow emotionally insecure or something?
Re: “As far as the choice that you made in the pre-existance, you would not be here if you weren’t in favor of the plan to choose for yourself.”
That’s what’s called “begging the question” or using the conclusion you’re trying to argue as a premise in your argument. To whit, you believe that the only people who have bodies, attended this Grand Council and agreed to God’s terms. Since I have a body, therefore, you have concluded that I attended and agreed to God’s terms. Bzzzt! No dice. That fallacy doesn’t work. Try again. This time, use logic that’s not circular.
Re: “We were spirit children. We wanted a body so that we could become more like God.”
Again with a circular argument. You posit that our having bodies is important because they make us “God-like,” but you fail to explain the foundation for this axiom. Come on, you can do better than this. Explain what, exactly, is “good” about bodies. Why does God like them? What does he get out of us having them?
Overall a lot of your “answers” to my questions, are predicated on a package of axioms you have, e.g. that bodies are desirable, that we attended this Grand Council, etc. Your responses are all based on the truth of these axioms. However, in order for those responses to be meaningful, you must first demonstrate the veracity of those axioms.
One of the most serious problems in any logical examination, is penetrating the axioms upon which one bases one’s argumentation. It’s not necessarily simple to do so. But until you do, the “answers” have no meaning for me … because I do not accept these axioms as fundamentally true.
You asked how Mormons viewed God. I answered. I am not going to go to a website to see what it thinks God is. Mormons believe that God is the ultimate parent. He is all knowing , and all loving, and he loves his children. everything that your post said that God is not, we believe that God is. You can’t tell me that I can’t believe what I do based on what you believe to be logic. If it were logic to you, you wouldn’t be athiest, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. We believe that God has a body of flesh and bones. In our pre-earth life, we were spirits. We wanted to be more like God. So, one of the things we had to do was get a body of flesh and bones, just like his. He knows us better than we know ourselves because he created us. I feel much better praying to a God that I believe is a man that knows me personally and intimately and cares about me than to a ball of gas that is 3 people at the same time as being one and can be everywhere and nowhere. We believe God is literally our heavenly Father. I don’t need to answer to you based on your idea of logic. Many people are looking for a meaning in life. My meaning makes perfect sence to me. I am a daughter of my Heavenly Father and Mother. I was sent by my choice to earth to my earthly parents to learn and grow and progress. If I prove worthy , I will be able to return to my heavenly parents and be resurected and be made perfect and live forever, and continue to progress for eternity. You choose to believe that this life is it, and death is the end unless you are prooven different. The thing is, you are so convinced that thats it, even if there was undeniable proof, you still would not believe. Numerous incedences in the past point to that conclusion.
…happily ever after.
Also:
Aha! Not so. If there were undeniable proof of the existence of God, I’d be first in line to kiss his feet. Eternal life… that would be great! I’m sure many, if not most, if not all skeptics would agree. Unfortunately, there is no such incontrovertible evidence… in fact, there is hardly any controvertible evidence! And that is all attributable to coincidence and human invention.
On the other hand, if God is imaginary, everything makes sense.
If there were undeniable proof of the existence of God, I’d be first in line to kiss his feet.
For me, if there were undeniable proof of the existence of God, kissing His feet might still be a bridge too far. He’s got some ‘splaining to do, first, considering the crap He put creation through.
Indeed.
I wouldn’t continue not believing in him, once I had the proof.
But that doesn’t mean he isn’t still kind of a dick. At least based on all the reports.
In return for immortality, I’d totally let that slide. Stupid Egyptian babies had it coming.
Re: ” am not going to go to a website to see what it thinks God is.”
How foolish of you to refuse to look at something just because you’re afraid of it. The page I linked to doesn’t say “what it thinks God is.” Rather, it explains how illogical it is to analogize an omnipotent God with a limited human parent.
Re: “He is all knowing , and all loving, and he loves his children.”
And what, exactly, is your objective, verifiable evidence of this?
Re: “everything that your post said that God is not, we believe that God is.”
And what, exactly, is your objective, verifiable evidence of this?
Re: “You can’t tell me that I can’t believe what I do based on what you believe to be logic.”
I did not tell you what to believe or what not to believe. I asked genuine questions about Mormonism, but got a lot of replies that were predicated on axioms that you refuse to verify or explain. They are not “answers” because they do not provide meaningful information. As Ta’Lon said to G’Kar on Babylon 5, “While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers.”
Re: “If it were logic to you, you wouldn’t be athiest, and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.”
This response implies that there is something wrong with “logic.” If so, please explain what that is. If there is nothing wrong with logic, then I can use it when and where I wish … and you cannot stop me.
Re: “We believe that God has a body of flesh and bones.”
This implies that having a body of flesh and bones is good and desirable, but does not explain how or why this is the case. It’s another of those axioms you keep throwing at me and that I keep asking you to explain rather than just regurgitating them mindlessly.
Re: “In our pre-earth life, we were spirits. We wanted to be more like God.”
Please demonstrate the truth of this, using objective, verifiable evidence.
Re: “So, one of the things we had to do was get a body of flesh and bones, just like his.”
You’re still assuming this is beneficial without making the slightest effort to explain how or why.
Re: “He knows us better than we know ourselves because he created us.”
Yes … including in a way he finds deficient, such that he’s shoved us all into a creation so that we can “learn” things he chose not to inform us about at the time he made us, even though he could have done so, and for no reason you will disclose.
Sorry, but once again, that doesn’t wash. Try again, this time by explaining the axioms upon which all of this is built.
Re: “I feel much better praying to a God that I believe is a man that knows me personally and intimately and cares about me than to a ball of gas that is 3 people at the same time as being one and can be everywhere and nowhere.”
You’re assuming you are automatically entitled to “feel better,” so you do that by imagining this being and praying to it. But you have not demonstrated the central axiom of this, that this entitlement to “feel better” exists. How do you know you are entitled to “feel better”? Maybe you were not, in fact, made to “feel better.” How would you know if you were or weren’t?
Re: “We believe God is literally our heavenly Father.”
Bully for you. This is an axiom I have yet to see demonstrated.
Re: “I don’t need to answer to you based on your idea of logic.”
OK, let’s back the cart up here. I asked some questions about Mormonism by trying to make logical sense of some of its premises. You attempted to answer them, but could only do so in terms of axioms whose veracity you accept as a given but which I do not understand. So when I try to get you to explain them, you tell me you refuse to answer my questions intended to make logical sense of Mormonism, because you refuse to be logical.
Did I catch that right? You’ll deign to answer my questions but only so long as you get to spew illogical answers? When I ask for logical ones, you’ll refuse? That’s a juvenile attitude, and doesn’t reflect well on Mormons. If you thought you were being an ambassador for Mormonism, you just failed, because you’re just making Mormons appear petulant and angry that anyone dares question them.
Re: “Many people are looking for a meaning in life.”
That’s true, but again, they’re accepting axiomatically that life MUST have “meaning.” But perhaps it doesn’t, and that, in turn, means any “meaning” they do discern, is inherently illusionary and therefore false.
Re: “My meaning makes perfect sence to me.”
Yes, because you accept axiomatically that life is supposed to have “meaning.” I don’t. At least, no one has demonstrated it, using objective, verifiable evidence.
Re: “I am a daughter of my Heavenly Father and Mother.”
Bully for you.
Re: “I was sent by my choice to earth to my earthly parents to learn and grow and progress.”
But you said previously you have no memory of having done so … none of us have. So how would you know this?
Re: “If I prove worthy , I will be able to return to my heavenly parents and be resurected and be made perfect and live forever, and continue to progress for eternity.”
I go back to another of your axioms, which is that we somehow have to “prove ourselves” to an omnipotent and omniscient God … which is a logical contradiction. You don’t really need to “prove yourself worthy” to God … he already knows your worth.
Re: “You choose to believe that this life is it, and death is the end unless you are prooven different.”
That’s right, I don’t believe things that aren’t demonstrable. Is that a bad thing? If so, isn’t that how your own God made me? Why are you whining about his decision to do so? And what do you intend to do, to make me think differently?
Re: “The thing is, you are so convinced that thats it, even if there was undeniable proof, you still would not believe.”
Aha, shades of the old apologists’ trick, “I could prove everything I’m telling you, but I won’t, because you still wouldn’t accept it.” Sorry but that won’t wash either. First, you are not entitled to an advance guarantee that I’ll accept the veracity of anything you provide. Second, proof that exists but is never disclosed, is logically inseparable from proof that doesn’t exist.
Re: “Numerous incedences in the past point to that conclusion.”
I’m sure you can cook up any number of rationales for why you would choose to deny me this “proof” you suggest exists but that I would never accept no matter how viable it is. That very conveniently relieves you of the task of presenting it to me and allows you to walk away from this discussion, believing yourself to have “won.”
But you still have not “won,” because you have not even begun to penetrate any of the several axioms on which your beliefs are based. And it’s not I who will have to live with the ignorance inherent in that … it’s YOU, rather, who ends up believing in things which you ultimately can never explain to another person who doesn’t already believe the same things.
You can call that a victory if you wish, but I call it an intellectual tragedy. As the United Negro College Fund motto says, “A mind is a terrible thing to waste.” It’s too bad you refuse to use yours to explain your axioms.
Wanna go out for drinks?
re: Psi Cop:
you continue to ask me to provide you proof… have you not paid any attension to the above posts? There is no proof… you have to have faith. and then after your faith has been tested, your proof will come…. most likely in Christ’s second coming. I answer your questions according to what my church believs, and you don’t accept the answer because you don’t see the logic… well, too bad. that’s the answer, nomatter how logical it is to you. I’m not afraid to look at the website, it is going to tell me why I can’t use my analagie to tell you who I believe God is,and again, why who I believe God is isn’t logical. again, it won’t be logical because of who whoever wrote the website believes God is, and obviously he and I have different ideas of who he is. sounds to me like you are looking for an argument and to push my buttons and egg me on, just like you want to do to the missionaries in your area, but I’m a closer target. I won’t participate in that. So, unless you have more questions that you really want to know, and I won’t hear the song and dance about how you want proof and that my answer isn’t logical, this discussion is closed. I thank all that have asked questions and have been respectful to me, as I have been respectful to you
Re: “you continue to ask me to provide you proof”
Yes. Believe it or not, I want you to explain the axioms on which you base your thinking. Horrible, isn’t it?
Re: “have you not paid any attension to the above posts? There is no proof”
Why then did you even bother trying to answer my questions? If there are no answers, you should either have said so at the beginning and left it at that, or else shouldn’t have responded at all! But you did respond to my questions, which — contrary to what you said just know — implies that answers to them DO exist, and that those questions are worthy of being answered. Now you’re backtracking and implying that it was somehow WRONG of me to ask them, or to expect that any answers would be meaningful and rational.
Sorry, but this kind of evasion isn’t going to work. Not on me, not today, and not here.
Re: “ou have to have faith. and then after your faith has been tested, your proof will come…. most likely in Christ’s second coming.”
The idea that Christ will have a “second coming” is predicated on the assumption that there was something he was supposed to do, during his “first coming,” which he either could not, or would not, do, thus requiring his return. Please explain this.
Oh wait. I forgot. You get to throw irrational beliefs around, then get incensed at me for asking you to explain them. A thousand apologies for this lapse of judgement on my part. Why, HOW DARE I ask you and your God such insolent questions?
Re: “I’m not afraid to look at the website, it is going to tell me why I can’t use my analagie to tell you who I believe God is,and again, why who I believe God is isn’t logical.”
So you’re aware your analogy was a bad one. Yet you used it anyway. I’m tempted to ask the insolent question of why you would use an analogy you knew to be invalid, but won’t.
Re: “again, it won’t be logical because of who whoever wrote the website believes God is, and obviously he and I have different ideas of who he is.”
So you’re making assumptions about what a Web page author thinks, based on the fact that I linked to that page? Are you sure you want to go with that? It sounds crazy to me, but then, I’m just a horrible, insolent non-believer who dares question a God who will will not stand for being questioned!!!
Re: “sounds to me like you are looking for an argument and to push my buttons and egg me on, just like you want to do to the missionaries in your area, but I’m a closer target.”
Sounds to me as though you want to present yourself as offering to answer people’s honest questions about Mormonism, but what you really want is to make them THINK you’re answering them, when in fact, you do not think those questions are worthy of logical answers and should not even be asked in the first place. That’s disingenuous. How godly is your disingenuity?
Re: “So, unless you have more questions that you really want to know, and I won’t hear the song and dance about how you want proof and that my answer isn’t logical, this discussion is closed.”
I still have many questions (see above) but you have basically defined them as unanswerable. If this is what Mormonism is all about, I have no interest in learning more about it, and in fact — based on your conduct here and the fact that you consider these questions insolent in the first place — will assume Mormons to be unthinking automatons who don’t understand their own religion and consider it unacceptable that anyone dares question it.
Thanks for living down to all my worst expectations of Mormons.
Re: “I thank all that have asked questions and have been respectful to me, as I have been respectful to you”
That’s not going to wash, either. You have NOT been “respectful” to me. You were initially, and I thanked you for that (see above), however, you eventually turned on me and ended up saying that my questions are unreasonable, unacceptable to your God, and that he refuses to allow them to be answered. That is, as I posted previously, petulant and childish … and it’s anything BUT “respectful.”
Go play the martyr elsewhere with someone who’s stupid enough to fall for it. I’m not buying that maneuver, even if it’s also an old and tired Christian tradition.
“Seriously, guys? Seriously?”
Ha. Best question yet.
Cartoon about Mormons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nwEGsQM5CQ
South Park episode about Mormons
http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/712/
If you are male, keep asking if he’s sure he’s over 18.
I think there’s a REASON why people haven’t tried to proselytize at my door since 1999.
Ask them about the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith’s translation of some ancient heiroglyphics. Later on, when Egyptian heiroglyphics were decoded for realsies, the translation was discovered to be pure BS.
I always wondered why they have so many children. A distant family member-in-law is a mormon and they have 7, all of whom are home schooled, and none of whom they can pay for.
More children = more Mormons, especially since Mormonism has a low “sticks into adulthood” rate (anecdotally it seems about 50%)… “go forth and multiply”
How to tell you’re at a Mormon wedding?
The mother of the bride is pregnant…
My question, hey you get multiple wives, so have the wives also multiple men?
Why not? ould be fun!
No, because women are inferior to men. Obviously.
When J.S. wanted to boing the wives of his friends and neighbors, oops, I mean bless their marriage with Celestial Union with the prophet, he authorized multiple marriages for women – that is if the second marriage was to him.
ask about the Heavenly Mother. :)
Ask about the planet Kolob
they’re not magic and there is no claim to any powerful secrets. there are symbols, representing covenents that take place in the temple to remind you of them. they are the style and length solely because of where the symbols are and what they represent. knee, chest, navel. how else are you going to get the symbols where they need to be besides tattooing them on. the “magic underwear” as you call them are an outward symbol of an inner commitment… not different then the white collar that a pasor or priest wheres under his robes…. and i think it rather rude to ridicule them and make fun of what they hold sacred…. does it really effect you guys what they do in their church minding their own business? not really. unless one of them came up to you bound and determined to force what they believe unwillingly down your throat you have no room to complain about them. they are very respectful to those around them, you should do the same.
Dude. Discover capital letters. They are awesome when used in moderation.
the vast majority of the population doesn’t work night shift. those that do usually put a sign on the door to not disturb…. you can’t expect them to be psychic. now if it were 6:30 am on a saturday morning when most people are still asleep, you’d have a point. or, how about a no proceliting or soliciting sign. does wonders. you can’t say that they intensionally tried to wake you up on a saturday morning, knowing that you worked graveyard…. and the above post. the jewish church complained about the whole hollocaust thing, and that has since stopped. if the person has been disceased less than 10 years, permission is saught from closest of kin. and the belief is that the person that has died has the final choice to “become mormon” or not. i think its rather sick that a person would be sent to hell on the sole basis that he hadn’t accepted God. what if he lived a great, kind life and never heard of God or Jesus, and so he dies… well, sucks to be him. i think that’s rather sick. so, baptism for the dead makes perfect sence to me. i would agree with you if the person had no say in the matter, but they make the final choice
> “i think its rather sick that a person would be sent to hell on the sole basis that he hadn’t accepted God. what if he lived a great, kind life and never heard of God or Jesus, and so he dies… well, sucks to be him.”
It certainly sucks. In fact, it sucks so much that I would never consider a god who instituted such a twisted system to be all-loving or praiseworthy.
That’s not even close to the “system” because there is no “system” like the one you’re referring to.
Prove it.
L. Jerome…what “system” does Love hold to? Can you tell me? “Systems” are of man’s doing alone.
John, you seem to be holding an unnecessarily rigid definition of the word “system”.
I’m using the word in its most general form: A system is something that works according to some basic rules. One such rule in most variations of Christianity is:
a) You MUST believe in God/Jesus to obtain salvation in an afterlife.
A stricter version for those who believe in Hell (like peanut) would be:
b) You MUST believe in God/Jesus to obtain salvation in an afterlife and avoid being sent to Hell.
As I see it, one of these is a fundamental rule in your own belief – which means your god works according to a system (or are you going to tell us that it doesn’t matter whether one believes in God or not?). The word “system” in this context is synonymous with “the basic rule(s) God uses for determining who gets to be saved”.
I happen to believe that rule b in particular makes for a decidedly petty, unfair, and unloving system, which means that a god who insists on such a rule should be characterized as such.
John’s a morMon?
No…not even close. No one is truly a “Mormon” or any other title we falsely assume. We only “think” we are…so we are. Get it? :) All the best
Dude. Discover capital letters. They are awesome when used in moderation.
Peanut is apparently immune to awesome.
Rude to ridicule them? More rude than, say, knocking on my front door on a Saturday morning after a night-shift at the hospital and invading my personal time and space with your deluded, provably wrong dogma? No, I don’t think it’s more rude than that at all.
and if you’re not interested, kindly ask them not to come back. after that request has been made and they continue to come back and bother you, then you have every right to react in whatever means you see fit
Or you can get the point through to them the first time and avoid the possibility of them misunderstanding you when you tell them to GTFO.
What a silly Miss-Manners concern troll.
I second all the people above who suggested the equivalent of “can I see your magic panties?!?”
Is that a book of Mormon, Joseph. Or are you just glad to see me?
You could ask this fellow why they would continue to follow the teachings of a man that was well know for committing fraud. A man that reportedly bedded a number of underage girls (a practice not too uncommon in the annals of Christian history). Joseph Smith stated years after founding the church that it was all made up. Why would they just let someone else take the reins and deliberately lead people to believe these falsehoods? Why did it take them so long to realize that black people weren’t as bad as they originally thought? They were thought to be some sort of unclean specimen or demon that manifests itself on earth. This went on until the middle to late 1960s (quite a coincidence, wouldn’t you say?). There is some rubbish about Jewish settlers in America 2000 years ago. I apologize for anything that may be factually inaccurate, I am by no means an expert on the subject, but I do have an uncanny ability to smell BS when it is nearby.
I liken Mormonism to a sort of 19th century Scientology. Both would make great movies, I think.
Battlefield Earth was a movie based on a science fiction book by L. Ron Hubbard. Whether it is “about Scientology” depends on who you ask.
Having not seen it, I can’t say whether it is great. I suspect not.
The beauty of talking to evangelists is that there’s no need for you to start with any canned questions. The Mormons asked to come to you. It’s their move to reveal why they’ve come to you.
If the Mormons don’t want anything from you, then wonderful, there’s no problem. Say the Mormons do want something, they want some specific response or reaction from you, they want you to say or do something or whatever. Then examine as best you can to clarify precisely what it is they want, and why they want it.
If, in your own mind, you find yourself wanting something from the Mormons (wanting some specific response from them etc), then you can apply the same examination to yourself: what precisely do you want, and why?
Care for coffee? (LDS can’t drink anything with Caffeine in it … they’re specifically prohibited from Coffee and Tea and other “Hot Drinks” by Scripture; thus having a Jumbo Sized Code Red/Red Bull should be good for a few giggles).
What’s up with the Mormon girls always patting my knee?? (they actually do that if they’re checking to see if the boy has on Temple Garments (aka magic undies); because it’s hard to tell just looking; but you’d have a seam under your pants when sitting down and a quick simi-platonic pat-on-the-knee is almost like a Secret Handshake to see if you’re a potential shift manager for the Baby Factory).
Is Beyonce hot or what?? (The Book of Mormon says that “Lamanites” rebelled against God and were Cursed with the Mark Of Cain …. that is: Dark Skin!! It also forbids miscegenation (interracial marriage/mixed blood); and until the IRS threatened to revoke their Tax Exempt Status (in 1978, I shit you not) they wouldn’t allow Blacks to join the Priesthood … which doesn’t sound any worse than Catholics not letting women be Priests until you realize that ALL male Mormons over the age of 12 are “members of the priesthood” (it’s a rite of passage like Confirmation for Catholics or a Bar Mitzvah for Jews) and you cannot enter into a Mormon Temple (for example to attend a wedding) if you’re NOT …. so it’d be like a Catholic Missionary saying you should join the Church but you’ll have to stand outside the Cathedral because you are not; and never will be; worthy to enter because of who your ancestors were.
Is Kayne West HOT or what?? For that extra Squick value because aside from being racist Mormons are some of the most Homophobic SOBs on the face of the earth … lusting after a Black Man should be good for a Double Whammy : )
Tell me again: why is it exactly that you missionaries aren’t allowed to go swimming? (hint: they sometimes claim that it’s to avoid ‘temptation’ but they actually think that Satan is hiding in the water … no, I’m not making this up!)
And last, but not least, if you believe that your holy book was reveled by an angel named Moroni (who’s statue is on the topmost spire of the Salt Lake Temple) …. wouldn’t that make you followers of the Revelations of Moroni? That is to say … “Morons”?
there is nothing against interracial mairrage church wide. If there’s an issue, its individually based. Threatening to take away tax exemptness has nothing to do with blacks and the priesthood. If that were true, women would have gotten it a long time ago, and that has yet to happen. God doesn’t care about political pressures. my personal theory on that was that if blacks were able to hold it right away, there would be tons of people joining the church for the wrong reasons, and they would have made promises they wern’t prepared to keep, and would have been held accountable for that. It needed to happen in a time when they had equal rights with the rest of the society. And i have to tell you, not all mormon girls touch the knee… probably happens more at BYU (let me tell you i have never had the desire to go there… Utah girls are crazy… u may as well propose mairrage to them for telling them hi in the college bookstore)…. about entering the Temple… you have to be personally worthy to enter… has nothing to do with what job you hold in the church, who you’re related to, or what your ancestory is. solely has to do with your life being worthy. anybody who meets the standard can go in
I would encourage you to remember that the missionaries are just young people who are trying to put their faith into action by serving missions for their church. It is a substantial sacrifice they are making by setting aside their studies and other life pursuits and serving for two years, and they are far from their homes and families. They are frequently verbally accosted, ridiculed and occasionally physically threatened or assaulted. Rather than making sport of trying to make them feel as uncomfortable as possible in your home, why not simply tell them that you’re not interested. Or better yet, treat them to a home-cooked meal and have a respectful discussion that does not involve loaded questions or ridicule. Get to know them as human beings. You may actually learn something of value, even if you reject the message as a whole.
If time allows I’ll always invite the LDS or JW in for a polite chat, on the proviso they understand they are not going to get anywhere and that I’ll be trying my damnedest to persuade them that they are wasting the one life we have. They always take up the challenge, and we’ve had a few good debates. I doubt I’ve changed any minds, but one or two of the younger LDS have left looking thoughtful…
Wah.
When I was an evangelist, I was sprayed down with garden hoses, attacked by a man wielding a rake, had any number of dogs sicked on me, and once was threatened with a gun.
You know what? While I didn’t deserve any of that violence, I also didn’t deserve to have my message treated with respect. It was a lot of crap. Not unlike the Mormon message. While I would never threaten or ridicule the purveyors of this nonsense, I also don’t have anny problem pointing out to them that they are wasting their lives on gibberish.
I wish someone had done it for me much earlier.
My sentiments exactly. I treat people respectfully, and I respect their right to have their own beliefs and opinions, but I have no qualms about challenging these beliefs or, if the situation warrants it, say to them straight out that they’re full of shit and explain to them why.
Wah? All I said is that it is better to treat the them with respect and kindness, but everyone is free to be an ass if they want to.
Yes, wah.
Which is the correct response to whiny crap like, “people are mean to them, so you should make them dinner and listen to their message.”
People were mean to me too, didn’t make me any less wrong.
Well said, Ty.
Well said. I found my only visit to Salt Lake City interesting, and genuinely tried to find out things, and was polite (yep, unlike with fundies and apologetics spewing their knee-jerking evangelizing all over this site) to the tour guide asking the above question about the whereabouts of the metal tablets. I found them friendly people – but have a mixed, cautious feeling about the friendliness all these years since, since I think that the foundation beliefs of the religion are hostile to the health, adulthood (maturity), self-worth and life of people. Especially Mormon female ones.
I was intrigued with one single passage in the book of mormon mentioned by the tour guide, and looked it up. It was something like: if you doubt whether anything in this book is true, check with your intuition and decide for yourself. (Using corny words like “go into your heart” or something.) *I* think it’s another false institutional religion – with the effects mentioned above – but was intrigued with the unusualness of any religion urging you to rely on your own intuition to decide for yourself. Instead of believing their book on faith! Could be dangerous for an institution!
1 Thessalonians 5:21
@Ryan: Just steal a bible from a hotel!
If you want to read a very interesting, cogent history of the Mormon Church, and the issues that have lead to all of the cults that spin off from it, read Jon Krakauer’s Under the Banner of Heaven.
The history of the Mormon Church is so well documented, that it’s amazing that people believe in it. Or Scientology. Clearly there is no rational thinking involved.
I thought that the second M was optional, as in Mor[m]ons.
Done. To. DEATH!
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
Go forth with your stupid little (entirely human) prophets and absurd stories about angels and gold plates in upstate new york… Go forth and see if your feeble little brains can ponder this question:
Would an omnipotent being have a reason to care?
There is not a human in the sky called “Heavenly Father” – it is a figment of your own programming.
Being an ex-moron, being basically forced in as a child.
My advise to you is, RUN!!! They still show up ay my house on a regular basis, even though I explain that I do not believe in the Easter Jesus. It is just fuel to their Bible thumping, Joseph Smith humpin, fire. I am their challenge.
Now granted I was baptized at 8yrs and on their list, still they will be your personal, spiritual hemorrhoid.
Anyway, run!
I think the inner circle, the ranking elite, in the mormon church have, and are hiding, some gold or durable metal tablets with something of interest to the human race written on them. (Not the Kinderhook plates, a prank some farmers played.) Whatever the writing is, it does not support the institution of a Mormon church, or the plates would be hove out long before now. It may be something of value to people’s insight, beliefs that would make people tend to be autonomous and powerful in their own lives.
So they say, well, Moroni took them back. Facile explanation.
It would do no good debating this with missionaries. Only a few with power, rank, position and authority to lose would know about them.
@peanut
thanks for the quick response – it’s pretty great how straight forward you have been – i know a lot of us are reading your statements and thinking “wow, peanut actually just said that, and it seems as if it was with a straight face” – so many people will hide stuff about their true beliefs
Another quick question about the kingdoms of the afterlife… As I understand it, when Jesus comes strolling down to the naughty kids room, he is continuing his mission (and I believe there are prophets etc. doing the same; like they did when we were all in “Spirit Prison” before taking our role on Earth). Therefore, when we are there Jesus will talk to us about sneaking us upstairs. That is, we can repent, flip the script, and join the big party. – -
This has been told to me a number of times, but it is typically coupled with a rider statement similar to: “But if you chose to reject Christ on Earth, you won’t really change your mind.” I never really accepted this brush-off because (1) What would be the point of Jesus making his rounds if he never got a sale? And (2) I’m pretty sure if I died and discovered an afterlife that matched what all those Mormons told me AND JESUS CHRIST was telling me he could sneak me in to an eternal sex party where I get to become a god – I’d be convinced.
“Well, shucks Christ…don’t have to ask me twice.” He’d be in front of me (observable) cracking open the back door.
I’d be a kick ass god – no hell – no homophobia – no oppression of women – lots of Sunshine – no premature ejaculation…oh, and I wouldn’t trick my people – they’d know me because I’d visit and give them gifts.
Commandment #1a: Do not worship me; 1b: be nice to each other…but I digress.
Oh, and peanut, 8 years-old…really? So an 8 year-old can be considered accountable for their sins…When? On their birthday? Not the day before? What do they learn that night before midnight? They profess they believe at 8 and are baptized and it is thought that now they are in the game, but 8 year-olds have no understanding of what religion is about (much less other religions)…this is hardly debatable.
It’s 2nd grade! 8 year-olds are just getting into their times tables. Might screw up 125 x 15 but they can profess devotion to a god of Jewish Native Americans and be held accountable for lying to Mom about stealing a cookie? They die at 8 years 2 days and are out of luck. Shoulda died 3 days ago little buddy.
I don’t have your email in front of me, and your reply isn’t straight above me either, so I’m trying to remember what all was asked. Spirit prison is after you die. I don’t think its like an awful place to be, I think you just can’t progress when you are there, and this life and the next is all about spiritual progression. We don’t learn everything all at once. Its like the kindergartener and times tables. No, its not a secret that times tables are out ther, the 5 year old just isn’t ready to learn them yet. He has to learn about numbers and adding, and subtracting, and then when he’s ready, he can tackle times tables. Spirit prison to my understanding is you are stuck at adding. You don’t change personalities when you die, you keep your belief, state of mind, etc. you are the same person. We have missionaries over there (he he imagine that mission call…. you will be serving in the spirit prison lol …. no.. already dead and the big man sais “hey why don’t you go kick in spirit prison for a while)… I’m pretty sure other faiths have missionaries there too. So, i would imagine its much like it is here with many choices… but yes, I have to wonder about that as well… I always thought it would be so much easier to accept when you’re already there, and have been quite jealous of those that are baptised after they die, cuz they die, get baptized, have a clean slate and hey! home free! where as I was baptised at 8, have quite a few skeletons in my closet to account for. And yes, I have also wondered why somebody would not accept the gospel after death because well, someone as your self that has no belief whatsever of any higher power or any afterlife, all of a sudden, last you checked you were dead, and you’re still there, so there must be some truth in it…. So my answer is, I don’t know… I have wondered about that too. And there are other faiths preaching as well… so the whole “accept Jesus and you’re home free” so again, you say the special prayer or whatever they have you say, and again, you’re still there, not progressing. Maybe its a process of elimination… k, tried you guys, still here, check, try the next one. The difference of our belief and the standard Christian what have you, is they have accepting Jesus is an elevator. you push the button and you’re there, nomatter what else you may do. Our belief is that when Jesus died for us, he laid down the bridge. We still have to walk across it, and with his help we will be able to… we make mistakes, we have to repent and make an honest effort to not make that mistake again. we have to continually work at being the good kid and cross that bridge. Your other question was about 8 years old being the age of accountability. I totally agree. The level than an 8 year old is at is knowing right from wrong, and when he is baptised, promises to follow Heavenly Father’s commandments, and in return, he is blessed with the companionship of the Holy Ghost. Doesn’t mean you have to be baptised at 8, you can wait. and if that 8 yr old dies 3 days later, I’m pretty sure he’s sorry bout that cookie… and God knows what we are thinking. He’ll judge our heart. Promises you make in the temple happen when you are older. either before going on a mission, or before mairriage, and if neither of those happen, when you and your bishop believe that you are ready (I didn’t go on a mission, but when I was married i went through) Those promises build on the promises you made at baptism. I personally think you should be older to be baptised considering the huge amount of responsiblity that you take on, which you will be held accountable for if you don’t keep it, but I didn’t make the rules. Some families (I refer to them as Nazi Mormons) pretty much shove their kids in the water, and shove them off to BYU, and shove them into the mission field and what happens is that poor kid goes against the church and quits as soon as out of site of the parents. I was never forced to go to church. In fact one sunday I wasn’t going to go to church, so I told my mom I wasn’t going, and so she crawled in bed with me and I said “mom , what are you doing?” and she said “well, if you’re not going, I may as well stay home too” I got right up out of bed and went….. sorry this is long…
oh another thing…. Jesus coming down convincing to go upstairs… all that happens before judgement. Everybody on earth is given the chance to accept or reject the Gospel. Once Judgment happens, and you are placed, thats it. But ya know, I think people will be happy where they are at… I think the only heart ache that will take place is the possibility of being separated from loved ones that made different choices. Think about it… assuming you’ve lived a good life and havn’t killed anybody and you’r not a lier or a cheater, I’d think you’d be in the middle room because you chose not to accept (I’m assuming.. who knows after this conversation you may go track down the missionaries ) So you being there in that middle room, would you be confertable spending eternity with people like me who bend over backwards to follow the rules and what not? and would I be comfertable spending eternity with you and others who don’t want to accept what I have come to know as truth? Or the lower room with the murders and rapists and liers and unrpentant… they’re not going to be comfortable in the higher rooms either. So you know, I think we will be with our own kind adn will be comfortable where we’re at, and the only agony will be if our families are elsewhere
To save yourself some time and effort why didn’t you just post “If you’re the sort of idiot that believes any made up sort of shit then you’re welcome to our church”.
Seriously, do you think that quoting complete rubbish as facts is likely to convince anyone but the brain dead?
i have no intension of convincing anybody… only to clear up misconceptions, as there are many. a question was asked, I answered. pure and simple… as it appears everybody is on this page because they have questions for mormons and what they believe
“i have no intension of convincing anybody…”
That’s lucky because you have no hope of convincing anyone here … I mean really, why do you believe things that are so obviously in the category of “just making shit up”?
andyes… that is what I’m here for, to be straight forward about what I believe as there are many who are just darned convinced that they know what I believe better than I do…. I posted a blurb up higher about needing to have faith, and a story about someond in the Book of Mormon who had tangeable observible evidence and still didn’t accept and believe because he didn’t have the faith… we are told many times in the scriptures that after the trial of our faith, then the “proof” comes… and not before. go find it and read it :)
I would ask:
“Do you believe in Santa Claus? Why or why not?”
well, Santa Clause doesnt effect my eternal salvation soo…. not going there… Like i said earlier, I am here to clarify misunderstandings and answer questions as honestly and as straight forward as I can. I’m not here to convert you, or prove anything to you.
But there’s no more evidence for Santa Claus than the golden tablets. So why not believe in Santa Claus? And just like religion, if you believe, the “proof” comes afterwards — you start getting presents from Santa!
There are two sides to this. If you’re wrong and Islam is right, you’ll end in Muslim Hell. Not believing in Muhammed and Allah affects your eternal salvation.
You’ll find that Muslims reject you beliefs for the same reasons you reject theirs. Atheists reject both, though on a somewhat different basis.
Personally, I reject your beliefs on this simple basis: when the Mormon Bible is so clearly and demonstrably wrong about the historical “facts” it presents, I see no reason to take the rest of it seriously.
Yep.
peanut: “He is all knowing , and all loving, and he loves his children”
Why would an omnipotent being have human emotion? Or limit itself to something that is produced in the little clump of neurons we call a human brain?
It is natural for us to think of “God” as being like us – with wants, desires and other emotions such as anger and jealousy and love. Although it’s comforting to say “God” loves his children – saying it does not make it so.
Try to ponder the idea of an omnipotent being that can do anything, create anything. Dwell on this idea. You will soon find that such a being would not have human emotion or want anything – and the stories that portray this being as such instantly become fairy tales…