It started to bother me greatly that God’s institutions—ones He was supposed to be guiding—were often more corrupt than their secular counterparts. If these churches were infused and guided by the Holy Spirit, shouldn’t it follow that they would function in a morally superior fashion than a corporation or government entity?
In general, I was finding this wasn’t the case. I started to see that religious institutions are more susceptible to corruption than their secular counterparts because of their reliance on God, and not human checks and balances, for governance.
—William Lobdell, Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith Reporting on Religion in America—and Found Unexpected Peace (2009), p. 161
Indeed, you would think that God’s institutions would be morally superior to secular institutions — just like you would expect God’s people to be morally superior to be secular folks. But as we all know, that has not been the case. And far too often, the situation is reversed.
Then again, it’s not at all surprising from the perspective that it’s all bunk.
I totally hate it when you bring this up to a believer and they respond with a line like “Churches are hospitals for sinners” or something like that.
Bunk.
Except in real hospitals people get well.
And if a hospital’s administrator is caught with his hand in the cookie jar (or a subordinate pants) he’ll have his ass fired and thrown in jail instead of transferred to a new position with access to more cookies.
I do have to agree with the quote and doubt there will be much that can be done about the corruption until people open their eyes.
their corruptness is a test of our faith. if we leave the church because the pastor stole from the church then we’re the ones who are going to go to hell because we didn’t have faith in god’s plan, mysterious as it is.
i am i rationalizing hard enough to be a fundie yet?
Churchs and the people who run them have essentially no oversight or accountability. They are tax exempt.
Pat Roberston for example is reported to have a personal net worth of over 1 billion he derived from his “non-profit”.
A local (for me) church “Christa Ministries” has numerous businesses including resort properties and other real estate. All tax exempt.
Just having the IRS involved would solve much of this corruption since they would actually have to keep books and be accountable for th funds of parishioners.
yes yes yes. What can we do to make religious institutions taxable? It’s completely insane. There are many multi-millionairre “preachers” out there, especially in the southern US states. They will guilt old women on fixed incomes to send their last $30 instead of buying food. It’s “seed money” or something like that. This is mind-control and corruption at its WORST. Something needs to be done about this. This really PISSES me off.
Would you expect the crazy-ward to be morally superior to the non-crazy-ward? They’re the ones hearing voices and seeing things.
Indeed, you would think that God’s institutions would be morally superior to secular institutions — just like you would expect God’s people to be morally superior to be secular folks.
Why would you make those assumptions? Human beings are human beings. I botch things up as badly as the next guy.
But you supposedly have the holy spirit living inside you, helping you be a child of God. You’ve had your heart changed by Jesus — your cold stone heart exchanged for a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 11:19). You can do all things through Jesus, who prayed for his children to be in unity (Matt 19:21).
And even with all that supernatural help, you’re still like us, and sometimes worse? How does that make sense if you have a god living inside you? What’s the point? The Bible expects — commands — Christians to be morally superior than those evil unbelievers who hate God. And yet by your own admission, you’re just like everyone else?
I don’t get it.
On my way out the door, the logic of this problem was inescapable and one of the ways I realized it was all bunk.
But you do have to give them credit for creativity! They can find a comeback for ANYTHING given enough time ;)
And yet by your own admission, you’re just like everyone else?
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
If a Christian claims moral superiority — damned.
If a Christian admits his own humanness and frailty — damned.
The Bible expects — commands — Christians to be morally superior than those evil unbelievers who hate God.
The Bible does command holiness, absolutely. And there are certainly passages that make the comparison you’re making. But there are passages that make the point I just made above, famously, Romans 7:
And for the record, I don’t recall ever calling anyone an evil unbeliever :) I’ve even posted on my own blog about how sometimes certain atheists, such as yourself, remind me more of Jesus than the church does :)
“Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
If a Christian claims moral superiority — damned.
If a Christian admits his own humanness and frailty — damned.”
Live up to the expectations your own religion creates of you – not dammed.
This was the undoing of Christianity for me: the idea that God would create a being, place expectations on that self-same being that are too high for the being to possibly accomplish, and then blame the being for it.
Yes, it’s the unfortunate plight of a believer. You really can’t win. :)
But I’m not damning you personally for your admission of being like everyone else. You’re right, you are. And I appreciate the honesty. But if that’s the case, Christianity doesn’t really matter — it’s just another way to be like everyone else, yet feel superior.
If God only transforms when it is convenient for you, you need to think about what is really going on.
It’s because they’ve been anointed with the holy spirit and it’s harder for satan to get his hands on ‘em. So he really works his mojo up and afflicts them with even stronger temptation than us heathens have to endure. I’m surprised that even more of them don’t fall to temptation…not!
Re: “Indeed, you would think that God’s institutions would be morally superior to secular institutions — just like you would expect God’s people to be morally superior to be secular folks.”
This is where the moralism of Christians … and every other religion that claims moral superiority for itself … falls apart. If a religion had complete veracity, was truly divine in origin, and truly dedicated to superior morals and ethics, then one would think its followers would be compelled to conduct themselves much better than the population outside of their religion. But in the real world we never see this.
In fact, what we get, instead, especially from Christians is, “We’re all sinners anyway” or “Members of the Church are only human” or other rationales for bad conduct. The truth is that the failure of Christians to live up to superior moral standards, as a group, tells us something about Christianity itself: It suggests that there is nothing about Christianity that can make anyone better.
This in turn completely refutes the claim that many Christians make, which is that Christianity is somehow “necessary” and “true” because it is a basis for morality. “Everyone should be Christian,” they essentially say, “because without Christianity, people would have no morals and would prey on one another freely.” Yet … when it comes down to it, Christianity does not ultimately have any such effect.
Christians, then, contradict themselves. (But since when is that news to anyone?)
I have to agree with Daniel. I am a former fundamentalist turned agnostic and I work for a large mainline Protestant denomination that works mightily for social justice and peacemaking issues by contributing thousands of $$$ to worthy causes in our community. However, our staff of 10 non-ministerial workers don’t have health insurance. Since most of us were married when hired, we relied on our spouse’s insurance, since needing a job seemed more important at the time. Turns out that a couple of us have gotten divorced and now need insurance. I for one have a pre-existing condition that would preclude individual insurance. Therefore, I’m screwed unless I can find group insurance. The business manager looked into it and found that the church was violating it’s own organizational office’s rules by not offering insurance to everyone. When confronted, the pastor made some lame remark that we should hope Obama gets Health Care Reform passed and left it at that! As a minister, he’s never gone without insurance a day in his life and probably doesn’t know what fear of illness is all about. The business manager quit rather than lose her license for non-compliance come audit time. I have become very disillusioned with many aspects of religion since beginning work here 8 years ago, but this attitude takes the cake. Wouldn’t the ethical stance be to confront the issue and try to correct it? This is not the only thing I’ve witnessed over the years, just the most disheartening. I think the fact that I am continually surprised that the church continues to be so unethical says a lot about what we expect churches and individual Christians to be like in the world. If there is no difference, then Christianity indeed does not offer anything new and never did.
Wow, I’m sorry to hear that, MOI. Best of luck to you. The whole pre-existing condition thing is so ridiculous. And that fact that you are employed and not covered. Just stunned.
Thank you for your concern, GG. Yes, it is stunning, considering that I would thing it would be the right thing to do, especially for a church! Methinks the bottom line is about money, even though it has over a 2 million dollar endowment. Fascinating.
There is no incentive to behave yourself if you believe you have already been automatically forgiven not only for everything you’ve ever done but for everything you might ever do.
When week after week you are exposed to the hypnotic songs and sermons that no one is worthy of god’s greatness, that all have sinned and fallen short, that without jeesus you are not worth shit, you’ll definitely be influenced to live up (or down) to such expectations.
This is a very very good point! If you are told over and over that you are a worthless sinner, then it does bad things to your psyche.
“Indeed, you would think that God’s institutions would be morally superior to secular institution …”
I’m not entirely sure you would and to me the more important part was
“… because of their reliance on God, and not human checks and balances, for governance.”
It is quite possibly that it is this part that makes it so attractive to charlatans and con-men. It’s much easier to con-someone who trusts you than someone who doesn’t. Take well know evangelists and other religious ‘icons’; how many of these are really there to spread the word and how many just to make a quick buck?
I see your point (and in full disclosure, I am Catholic) but I question the assertion that secular institutions are not corrupt, or even less corrupt. When I worked in the corporate world I was stunned at the level of corruptness, at least in how employees were treated. lot of publicity about how well they treat women, because they clearly treat them like garbage.
Only conservative Christians, those who vote for conservative Republican political candidates who do more wrong than right, and are then too blind and stupid and ignorant to see what their favorite candidates are really doing because they’re too busy picking on Barack Obama just because they think he’s Muslim, which he is not, are morally corrupt. In other words, it’s okay to say anything you want about someone who really can get the job done and do it right, but say anything bad about someone like George W. Bush, John McCain, or Sarah Palin, or any conservative Republican for that matter, and you are nothing but a heretic and a naysayer, even though the rest of us know what’s really going on because we’ve seen the evidence for ourselves. What I am really trying to say is, conservative Christians, and ONLY conservative Christians, will believe their own lies, accept the truth only if it’s convenient for them, and condemn anyone to Hell who disagrees with them. See what I’m saying? Simply put, lies are truth, and truth are lies, and you have to agree with these Christians if you want to inherit God’s kingdom. I’m a Christian, but I’m not like the rest of them. Yeah, I have my morals and everything, and sometimes my morals get corrupted, but I am far from being a judgmental Bible-thumper.