Dinesh D’Souza says he has proof of an afterlife:
His proof is near death experiences. He says atheists are “very worried” about that evidence.
Anyone here worried about that “evidence”? Anyone? Anyone?
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[...] 7, 2009 Unreasonable Faith featured a video on Thursday of Dinesh D’Souza arguing that near-death experiences are proof of the [...]
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[...] been quite a bit of discussion going on about near death experiences (NDEs), so here’s another article to add into the mix. [...]
What I’m worried about is how many people are there that are so dumb and/or indoctrinated that they don’t understand what evidence actually mean and therefore believe that so called near death experience prove the afterlife but that evolution is “only a theory” since we haven’t found a fossil of a crocoduck eating a banana.
Isn’t there a difference between “near death” and death?
There’s a huge difference between mostly dead and dead!
So I guess he is really saying he has PROOF of life-while-you-are-still-alive-but-might-be-getting-close-to-dying-but-don’t-actually-die.
These are all of the conditions under which he has found his information – this is what he is proving.
I believe Monty Python has covered this already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs
evidence???? sounds more like testimonial to me!
But wasn’t this near death nonsense already debunked a few decades ago? This DeSouza guy has no shame: It is the old Raymond Moody’s bullshit repacked for the XXI century. And his appeal to “modern science”, so ridiculous that the words fail me…
He’s got a near-life.
I think if we had the ability to prove that the afterlife existed, then surely some of the greatest minds of our past would have done it. Euler and Descarte were very religious, and Descarte even tried to formulate a proof that god existed. It seems a little narcissistic that D’Souza thinks that he can prove something in a supernatural logically.
Sorry I meant to say: It seems a little narcissistic that D’Souza thinks that he can prove something that in its very essence is unprovable.
Who says that life after death experiences rest solely in the domain of atheistic belief ? The guy is obviously isn’t that bright…
The best part of near death experiences is how everyone’s cultural beliefs about the afterlife turns out to be exactly right! I think it’s great how all these mutually exclusive spiritual beliefs are all equally true.
correction to above: *who sayds that denial of life after death experiences rests solely in the domain of atheistic belief?
Except that it’s not true. Mind Hacks had a link to a study of people who had “near death” experiences in hospital, and found that on the whole, when you looked back at the medical records, at the point at which they had the experience, they weren’t particularily close to death. If I remember correctly, the most plausible explanation is hypoxia-induced hallucination, which is a fairly well described phenomenon.
Will try and dig out the article.
His first statement.
Van Susteren: Is there life after death?
D’Souza: I think there is; and I’ve always believed it on the basis of faith.
So, phenomenologically, when he encountering that weird event he would be interpreting the stimuli through schemes that assumed and believed in a life after death.
Every bit of his recollection of the stimuli could be absolutely accurate regarding what he felt, saw, and interpreted.
Without going into them, there are quite a few weak and incongruent arguments throughout this little treat.
To argue against near death experiences being similar to the experience of a drugged brain he says, well it’s not like drugs, then immediately moves to saying it’s not like a dying brain. From hallucination talk to deteriorating brain – fading recollections, dimness of perception, disorientation – then describes near death experiences as presenting in “the opposite” way – which sounds like the way drugged brains often interpret stimuli. “Extreme clarity and a sense of vividness.”
Pick one, dude.
I just like that he comes in with “proof” of life after death and when asked if he believes there is he says, “I THINK there is”
We can chemically induce NDEs by flooding the brain with ketamine, a chemical that the brain naturally produces when it’s oxygen starved.
But obviously, these NDEs that D’Souza is talking about are inexplicable, unless people experience death before they’re actually dead….
Well, I’m convinced.
Speaking as an atheist, I am exited to hear any evidence of life after death. However, as you watch this video you realize that D’Souza’s “evidence” is more in line with speculation and wishful thinking. He reports thousands of cases of near-death experiences (which don’t count as afterlife evidence) which seem to be similar. Having not done much research on the topic, my initial reaction is that this is most likely a great example of confirmation bias. What percentage of people near death experience such events? With ~200,000 (just a quick estimate) people dying each day, shouldn’t there be a much larger pool of these experiences to pull from?
I’m with you. I’m an atheist and I would love to discover that the end of my physical being isn’t the end of the road for me. Who wouldn’t? Even if my existence didn’t end with the death of my body, it still wouldn’t be a good reason to believe in religion.
Could there be an afterlife? I don’t know, and I’m pretty sure no other human being does either. However, even an acceptance of the possibility of an afterlife does little to support the claims made by D’Souza about his so-called God. If life after death is a reality, then it probably preceded religion anyway and could just be another natural phenomenon that we do not fully understand.
There is overwhelming proof: It says so in the Bible, what more do you heathens need?
Agentsmith I know you are being humerous. I have never hhad to read the bible I have had enough of all these religious lot spouting it at me when they cannot prove it by any explanation.
As an atheist I could go on and write a book and say I can prove there is no god. No prove for or against I believe.
Elaine: still a good idea, as an atheist, to read the bible, because otherwise when religious people tell them if you read the bible you’d be a christian you don’t have any good argument for them. Hit up the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible some time. Good stuff.
wazza, I do actually know a lot of the bible as I have always been interested since I saw the film The Ten commandments as a child, and of course have had several bible bashers at my door. I just need to look at evil, such as I once when I was very young saw Pathe News at the cinema, as I was being led out in to the foyer by my Mother and looked back and saw soldiers being put in to gas ovens alive. Since that day I ceased to believe in a god. I will hav e a look at the skeptics annotated bible some time.
I’m worried that D’Souza actually died three years ago and no one has told him. Yes, he’s that dull.
LOL
It does not require high intelligence to be an effective Con-man er…preacher.
Tell lots of people very pleasant feel good lies,
ignore most unpleasant truths.
Smile and yell glory to jepuss.
and 25000 people will think you’re wonderful!!!
g0d I wish I had that talent.
It amazes me when Christians reveal “evidence” like this and then act like it only applies to their One True Faith™. If someone proves there is life after death that doesn’t mean it’s the Christian version.
Ummmmm…..when was he ever going to talk about this proof he has? I kept waiting, and waiting…
This guy has no comprehension of the scientific process, does he? Why would I be worried if someone found evidence of an afterlife?
FAIL
I read a great theory for the whole “tunnel of light” phenomenon: Since people say they had their “life flash before their eyes”, doesn’t it stand to reason that their birth is being replayed too? If so, the light at the end of the tunnel, people waiting on the other side and so forth becomes pretty obvious.
I got a chuckle out of that. Makes as much sense as any other theory.
I can see an new “science” starting up. The experimenter will barge in on the family gathered around the dying patient, sidle up to said patient and at the last breath ask: “what’s it like dude?”
can’t wait to see the data……….. *snicker*
“These near death experiences which are now the subject of quite detailed study, The atheists are very worried about them…”
Uh….which atheists is he referring to? This feels like a common theme. (and gives me flashbacks to Comfort’s Banana) God peddler goes on the air unopposed and presents a loosely collected idea with bad facts and claims that atheists are terrified of this new “study.” Thus implying that any arguments against it is merely a reactionary attempt to censor the speaker.
I have trouble believing that this tactic is intentional. It seems to me that anyone who would state their case in this way would be forced to see how weak their position is, and it really feels like he’s trying to convince himself just as much as everyone else. (Especially considering the “I believed this in faith first” line)
Maybe I’m over analyzing, or not underanalyzing enough :)
I’m sure they do realize the weakness of their position when stated in such a manner. In fact, that is probably why they choose to do it in this way. What D’Souza and people like him are counting on, however, is the stupidity of their audience. He knows he’s a schyster, and so does a sizable portion of the audience. But there’s also a sizable portion of idiots who gorge themselves on this tripe like a fat man at an all-you-can-eat buffet. I’d like to know what kind of money D’Shyster is knocking down. I bet it’s a lot, and I bet he laughs to himself regularly about the idiocy of the ninnies who line his pockets.
There is a study currently underway which attempts to address the near-death, out-of-body experience.
Crash rooms, resuscitation rooms, operating theatres and emergency rooms all over the world have been talkeing part.
Here’s what they’ve done:
They’ve placed shelves high up on the walls and placed bizarre, colourful and eye-catching objects on those shelves in such a way that they can only be seen from ceiling height or above.
They’ve then interviewed every patient who has reported a near-death out-of-body experience and asked them one question: What was on those shelves?
Out of the hundreds (probably thousands by now) of respondants – not a single solitary one of them has noticed anything on the shelves.
Enough said.
@Custador any idea what the study is called? It sounds very interesting.
I don’t, but I shall find out and get back to you.
I read that too – pretty darn interesting.
In Skeptical Inquirer
Article:
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/nde_experiment_ethical_concerns
Replies:
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/comments_on_nde_experiment_ethical_concerns1
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/comments_on_nde_experiment_ethical_concerns
That sounds like the “Out of Body Experience” (OBE or OOBE) experiment led by Sam Parnia.
OOBEs are somewhat different from NDEs (Near Death Experiences). NDEs may include out-of-body experiences, but also may include the light at the end of the tunnel, seeing dead relatives and religious figures, etc.
1) I would be concerned whether the experiment is adequately controlled to prevent sources of error, including cheating. Imagine the true believer hospital employee filling in the patient on what to report.
2) This inducible, reproducible result should blow OOBEs as evidence of dualism out of the water:
Brain probe triggers out-of-body experiences
A patient’s brain was probed in preparation for epilepsy surgery. Probing one particular area, the right angular gyrus, reproducibly caused the patient to report seeing herself from above, although she was never able to identify a single thing that would have been viewable from above and not from he body’s location. She was also not near death, in fact she was conscious and awake.
3) If your mind was actually separate from your brain, and could leave your body, how would it perceive anything? We understand pretty well how vision works, with light entering the eyes, hitting receptor cells in the retina, etc; and the eyes remain attached to the brain.
For those of us who have (perhaps with some discomfort and/or disappointment) accepted the inevitability and finality of death, how would evidence for an afterlife “worry” us? I, for one, would be elated to discover that I was wrong about mortality.
Agreed. I also think that and afterlife does not prove anything about the existence of a god. To me they seem to be two separate ideas that are exclusive.
GASP, OH NOES, WHAT SHALL WE DO NOW!!!!ELEVENTYONE!!!! *shockhorror*
Get a grip, dude. Even if you somehow proved that, that doesn’t mean god(s) exist(s). Or that I’d be suddenly worshipful and/or terrified of it. Or even care.
Lol… I posted my comment above and then read yours. Great minds think alike.
He says atheists are “very worried” about that evidence.
This reminds me of those quack ‘medical secrets revealed’ books. (Use peanut butter to cure toothaches etc.) They always have the phrase “learn the secrets that your doctor doesn’t want you to know!”
It’s terrible how all these doctors keep suppressing the word about crackpots who want to sell you tap water for $10000 a cup in order to force real medicine on their poor patients.
Why would I be worried?
Even if there is life after death, it still does not prove that a god must exist.
I would find it very cool if there is life after death. Maybe we cross a paralel universe. LOL
Actually my computer also reincarnate every day it is brain dead when I shut it down and alive again when I start it up.
Dee em tee.
Indeed.
How about TMS? (transcranial magnetic stimulation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCVzz96zKA0
I’d like to find out their definition of evidence… evidence =/= faith
It does if you have faith in your evidence. :p
These guys always make me laugh. Atheists are afraid of evidence?
Really Dinesh, Atheists are the ones afraid of evidence? :-)
If D’Souza actually does prove there is life after death he will become an instant sensation worldwide. His face will be splashed across every broadcast screen and every major magazine—not to mention every scientific journal—on Earth. He will win every scientific honor and accolade known to man. He will have singlehandedly changed the course of science, philosophy, religion and history forever. And how will he choose to unleash this mega-maelstrom of scientific revelation upon Mankind? Why, he’ll do it during a 4 ½ minute segment of Greta Van Susteren’s show on FOX teevee, of course!
After the headline, I can’t help but be disappointed. I thought D’Souza was going to demonstrate for us.
LOL, if only!
when you’re dead, you’re dead.
I’m guessing someone else said this, but, even if that did qualify as ‘evidence’ of ANYTHING, and it really really doesn’t, I certainly wouldn’t be worried. I’d be thrilled to learn there was evidence of the existence of an afterlife — I’d spend my entire life trying to figure out as much as I could about it using the evidence.
I don’t think there’s anybody who wouldn’t want there to be an afterlife, but there’s never been any good reason to think there is one. There’s not any now and there never has been. Just a bunch of phony baloney religions and liars trying to control people through fear and desire.
Did anyone catch his “detective” analogy that was practically verbatim from Dawkins latest book, Greatest Show On Earth? Shameful.
D’souza is painful to listen to. Never has anyone spoken so much and said so little. If you watch his debates with Hitchens, you’ll see what I mean, though this piece with Greta was pretty painful. She clearly, like us, kept waiting for him to say something substantive and give us even a hint of evidence.
And did anyone catch his “detective” analogy that was practically verbatim from Dawkins latest book, Greatest Show On Earth? Shameful.
I totally caught that right as he said it, then I did a quick search in this comment section to see if anything else had caught that as well. Did he not think anyone would notice? This guy is such a joke. He thinks by using scientific language here and there he can make a scientific case for his ridiculous beliefs and many christians are buying it. Anyone interesting in seeing this guy debate Christopher Hitchens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boH_tJ0mCrU
Whose to say this supposed afterlife is proof of a god? It could just be us transferring very scientifically into another dimension of beer volcanoes and stripper factories. There could be a zillion deities for all we know. Certainly there is nothing proving Christianity or any religious dogma on this planet.
In the end, its probably just life’s last gasp before the lights are turned off. Although, I will comfort myself with thoughts of beer and strippers instead.
Zeno Telos
Your head gets run over by a train. Exactly HOW is the information retrievable for an after life?
Your entire knowledge base is carried as electro-chemical information – it gets obliterated.
Why are these people so DUMB.
Do they have any clue about what science tells us – or do they think the stars are pretty Chinese lanterns.
Worried?
Fuck No!
I’m still rattling in terror from Ray’s banana!!!
One nightmare at the time, please!
No really? Cartesian Dualism still relevant? lol!
Philosophical evidence? What qualifies as philosophical evidence?
D’Souza is a low-octane Malkin. It’s amazing he can get an airing on TV to display ignorance. The NDE has been studied and there is little doubt it’s the result of oxygen privation and the brain hallucinating. It’s a much simpler explanation than imagining an entire hidden universe.
But by all means, go on and tell us about that hidden universe, Mr. D’Souza. Who goes there? Who doesn’t? Do ghosts exist? Unleash all the philosophical evidence you can muster to describe those conditions. Why couldn’t you talk to Grandma during your research?
And which atheists did you interview who were astonished and terrified of nonsense we’ve known about for decades?
What a whalley. He was asked several times where is the proof, he had no proof, but never really said he had proof just went on spouting about near death experiences which have never been proved,but the brain does weird things, lke making you believe in the afterlife.
I suppose he is clever as his book will obviously sell, and make him money.
He’s a frakkin’ imbecile.
it has been shown, scientifically, that 100% of all people born have died or will die. Just get used to it and have a good life until then. End of story
It has? When?
There is actually more proof of UFOs then NDEs. I wonder if D’Souza believes Jesus is an ET.
correct me if i am wrong
but are “near death” and “after life” two different things?
How does a “near death” experience prove that there is an afterlife?
isn’t it like having a “near orgasm” and being pregnant?
maybe it’s just me.
now if he said “well, X amount of people died or were considered technically dead for a few days and then just came to life and told us what happened,” that would be a different.
This guy is on the right track, but WHIFFED when he had a chance to hit a home run making his point about the question of proof when asked directly by Greta.
The “PROOF” is that in many circumstances where these out of body experiences take place, there is also eye-witness testimony collaborating what the so-called deceased witnessed.
To many folks, accounts from people that have come as close to death as possible, and then brought back through resuscitation efforts, that have reported very specific details about leaving their bodies and reporting all that they saw while outside of their bodies (with many accounts being verified and supported by other eye-witness testimony), IS EVIDENCE/PROOF, to many, that life does not end after physical death.
Many of these accounts are very credible.
Atheist physicians and others have become believers because of such accounts. Most notably, when these kinds of near death experiences and events involve children. I have read numerous accounts and can see real credibility among many of them.
As a believer in God it also makes sense to me that there is more to be expected than just what we see here today and now. I believe something wonderful awaits us human beings after we die. And I don’t believe it matters what religion, if any, one belongs to. Even atheists, I sincerely think, will experience incredible things after death.
The God that made the earth and who put us here did so with a purpose. Living on an earth like this (with tragedy as part of life) allows humans to see good and bad, love and hate, laughter and sorrow and so much more all together. This process called LIFE, on this earth today, allows us humans to be refined, to develop character and to grow as human beings. To deal with tragedy as well as good times. If God transcends religion, as I believe, then what awaits could be better than whatever our imaginations can create.
And numerous, similar, near death experiences with specific details (supported by other witnesses) only support such hopes and belief for me.
Vinny
[citation needed]
1 internets for you.
You would think that a guy whose name looks/sounds so much like “Douche” would try harder not to be one.
If my name was Fallacy McWrongalot, I would make sure I had good ideas before writing books and going on TV. Even Fox TV.
I, for one, am not at all “worried” by reports of near-death experiences.
First, Dinesh, do you honestly believe that I really *want* there to be no life after death? If there are scientifically corroborated reports of NDEs, then I won’t cringe – I’ll celebrate, even though I currently believe that there is in all likelihood no life after death, due to the unlikeliness of the existence of a non-physical soul which can survive death and its aftermath. Also, part of my admiration for science is embracing views contrary to my own position if that is the state of the evidence. I’ll gladly change my mind on the probability of life after death if there is confirmed evidence for the phenomenon.
However, Dinesh just doesn’t have the kind of evidence that would convince me. Tell me, Mr. D’Souza, why do people from different religious traditions typically have NDEs which correspond to their unique cultural and religious traditions? Do NDEs from Hindus or Native Americans prove that their versions of the afterlife are correct, too? What if there is an afterlife but it’s not the one you seek and embrace as a Christian? What if you’re about to miss out on Muslim paradise – why are you so certain of your beliefs? Further, how does he know that these NDEs aren’t just hallucinations formed by the brain of the person having the NDE, which appears to accurately predict the fact that the NDEs which are experienced by individuals align with their own cultural upbringing?
I’d love to hear his response.
“Evidence is another word for proof”
Not.
I’m embarrassed for this guy. He doesn’t prove anything and looks like an idiot.
Darkness, Tunnels, and Light
by G.M. Woerlee
Skeptical Inquirer, May/June 2004
**** But that link does nothing to explain numerous very specific testimonies and detailed descriptions of things going on around them (collaborated by eye-witnesses), from people that were unconscious and even considered dead.
Explain that folks!
Lets see how would I explain this? First in most so called near death experiences they are in hospitals and most people have a very good idea of what will be going on in them when people are trying to save someones life. If instead of just saying how these stories you base your belief on are true, you should actually make sure they are even real first.
**** That’s nonsense. Many accounts are very credible and not just made up on the fly as you’d like to assume.
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
It’s the ones where very specific details are given which are also corroborated by numerous eyewitness testimony. So now what?
atheists are afraid of the evidence? by definition, shouldn’t atheists welcome any evidence that points to new scientific discovery? one of this guy’s many fallacies is his assumption that atheists hold an antitheistic agenda (and, while some certainly do, it’s far from accurate to issue that as a blanket statement.)
No.
I say it again where is the proof. There is no life after death, only hopeful people who cannot face the fact when they die they die and go nowhere only under the ground.
I have seen many of my relations put in to the ground but never seen them go to the afterlife.Do these people think it is only atheists who think this, I have christain and jewish friends who do not believe in this.They just want proof in order to believe.
“I say it again where is the proof. There is no life after death, only hopeful people who cannot face the fact when they die they die and go nowhere only under the ground.”
**** Can you READ? Maybe try reading next time before typing. To many folks, accounts from people that have come as close to death as possible, and then brought back through resuscitation efforts, that have reported very specific details about leaving their bodies and reporting all that they saw while outside of their bodies (with many accounts being verified and supported by other eye-witness testimony), IS EVIDENCE, to many, that life does not end after physical death.
Many of these accounts are very credible. There are numerous powerful testimonies from children.
Sorry if these accounts contradict your own beliefs. But you’ll be okay.
Vinny, the plural of anecdote is not data.
Scientists have set up experiments to test whether people can correctly perceive items in out-of-body experiences, and as the hypothesis which claims that NDEs and OBEs are internal experiences predicts, none of the people who reported NDEs or OBEs were able to correctly perceive items that were placed in their hospital rooms.
You’ll need experiments that you can repeat so that these reports can be verified. Until then, you’ve offered us nothing but a bunch of nice stories.
**** The fact that these folks were not yet hooked up to these scientific experiments does not in the least discount their actual experiences at all. Experiences that in numerous cases (((have several eye witness accounts))) to support what they say they witnessed and what they claim to have experienced while considered clinically dead.
What you call “nice stories” is powerful evidence, to many, that consciousness does not end at death. Atheists and agnostics have become believers because of some of these detailed and corroborated experiences. These accounts are not rare and isolated. There are literally many thousands of them. The only thing you can do is try to tag them all is lying exaggerations and all those eye-witnesses as the same. Ok, sure.
heh
Vinny
It does not discount that they experienced *something*. What is does do is discount it as evidence that it was something (like a spiritual/religious event) as opposed to something else (like an internal brain state caused by hypoxia and/or endogenous DMT release bringing on hallucinations and dissociation).
We experience dreams, but it doesn’t make anything in those dreams real. Mere experience, while important to the person having them, is not evidence for anything. Controllable, testable conditions are just one prerequisite that these stories fail for being evidence.
But does nothing to explain numerous very specific testimonies and DETAILED DESCRIPTIONS of things going on around them (collaborated by eye-witnesses), from people that were unconscious and even considered dead.
Explain that.
I can give you very specific and detailed descriptions of my dreams. That buys you nothing.
As for eye-witness collaboration, well…it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. And that’s assuming the witnesses are uninterested and neutral observers, un-coached and with no contact with the “experiencer”, which they almost never are.
Quote: “As for eye-witness collaboration, well…it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. And that’s assuming the witnesses are uninterested and neutral observers, un-coached and with no contact with the “experiencer”, which they almost never are.”
**** You gotta love it. ALL THESE FOLKS ARE LYING!!!
That’s a mighty broad brush to try to sweep away your problem, don’t ya think?
You sent me to wikpedia which does nothing to refute what I posted.
I guess living in denial is one tough deal.
Quote: “I can give you very specific and detailed descriptions of my dreams. That buys you nothing.”
**** But if several eyewitnesses say they saw you stealing your neighbors car, guess where you’ll be going?
Eyewitness testimony can be very credible and can even be used to convict criminals. And you’d like to just throw all those eyewitness out the window. How convenient.
What a hoot.
Lying is an awfully strong term that has been defined downward lately. It usually implies a conscious will to deceive, and I don’t think that’s what’s going on here at all.
I prefer to think that as fallible and emotional sensory beings with a penchant for apophenia, a vulnerability to suggestion, and a strong desire to package things in familiar narration, we tend to report with poor accuracy. This, BTW, unlike your NDEs, has been scientifically demonstrated, and is a huge problem with anything being supported exclusively by human eye-witnessing.
I am not referring to just the individual that claims to have had the out of body experience and then sharing specific details about what they say they saw. I am also talking about the other people in the same room; doctors, technicians, nurses and even other patients and family that corroborate the exact details with which the near deceased claims to have gone through.
The only way you can get around THOSE TESTIMONIES is to brand them all as lying.
And that is just too broad a brush to use on all of these people. Not to mention the actual ones claiming to have gone through such an experience as well.
So what? Millions of people believe in a god. That doesn’t mean god exists, only that millions of people believe that he/she/it does.
If millions of people believed in unicorns, would that make unicorns exist? Millions of people believe in leprechauns. Do they exist?
So what? I had an acquaintance who became a believer because he survived a car crash. People will believe what they want to believe, led by their emotions.
OK. Again, so what? There a thousands of people who claim to have seen Jesus, too. Does that make the apparittion of Jesus real?
No, not at all. I can tag it as people believing things that they are predisposed to believe, because they live in a society that encourages such belief. It doesn’t mean that they are lying, it means they are convinced of something that may or may not be true.
Millions of people believed epilepsy was caused by demons. It doesn’t make it true.
Not one single anything here debunks anything I posted. Let’s take a LOOK:
Quote: “If millions of people believed in unicorns, would that make unicorns exist? Millions of people believe in leprechauns. Do they exist?
**** You’d like to conveniently forget all of the EYEWITNESSES that completely verify and support the very testimonies given by people considered dead, or as close to dead as one can get, yet who report very specific details seen after leaving their bodies supported by all of those eyewitness.
You completely skipped over all those. Bet I know why.
Quote: “So what? I had an acquaintance who became a believer because he survived a car crash. People will believe what they want to believe, led by their emotions.”
**** You’d like to conveniently forget all of the EYEWITNESSES that completely verify and support the very testimonies given by people considered dead, or as close to dead as one can get, yet who report very specific details seen after leaving their bodies supported by all of those eyewitness.
You completely skipped over all those. Bet I know why.
Quote: “K. Again, so what? There a thousands of people who claim to have seen Jesus, too. Does that make the apparittion of Jesus real?”
**** You’d like to conveniently forget all of the EYEWITNESSES that completely verify and support the very testimonies given by people considered dead, or as close to dead as one can get, yet who report very specific details seen after leaving their bodies supported by all of those eyewitness.
You completely skipped over all those. Bet I know why.
All you can try to do is claim that all these folks are exaggerating or outright lying, and, that all of those eyewitnesses supporting those very same accounts are in on it with them and lying too.
Sorry, but if you can buy all that nonsense I have some waterfront property in Fla to sell ya. They call it the beautiful Everglades.
OK, eyewitnesses. Fine.
Several people have witnessed statues weeping blood. It was even filmed, and photographed, several times. Did those statues truly weep blood?
Thousands of people have also witnessed exorcisms. They would swear by anything that a paralytic started walking and that an epileptic was cured and demons seen fleeing its body. Thousands of people will confirm that, indeed, epilepsy was cured by exorcism.
Is epilepsy caused by demons?
Can these abnormal events be explained by some other scientific reasons? If so, then there you go.
But NOBODY can seem to explain how a person can come as close to death as possible, claim to leave their body, witness specific events taking place around their bodies (or wherever else they are then located), and then have numerous supporting testimony from other eyewitnesses to these very same events.
Until you have some kind of reasonable explanations (other than these folks are lying bums … along with all those witnesses are bums too), then you have to deal with the facts as they are!
Sorry, but that’s just how things work.
The facts, as they are:
Some people believe that they have abandoned their bodies and seem to see themselves from above. People confirm the circumstances where said body was, consonant with the reports. No one was ever reported noticing anything particularly unusual such as the objects mentioned in Custador’s study. Eyewitness testimony is remarkably unreliable. There’s not a single physical evidence – other than eyewitness testimony and the person’s own experience – corroborating the existence of something, anything, remotely like a soul, that can leave the body.
Those are the facts.
Your so-called, “facts”, are clueless and meaningless. But once again this seems to be nothing new here.
Quote: “There’s not a single physical evidence – other than eyewitness testimony and the person’s own experience – corroborating the existence of something, anything, remotely like a soul, that can leave the body.”
**** I wonder if that would be because the physical world cannot measure something outside of its own physical dimension?
Wake up and smell the coffee folks!
How would you suggest scientifically measuring or examining a spiritual dimension if one exists?
Yet something sure does seem to exist after the physical body dies.
The evidence and testimony supporting such is extensive.
i have several eyewitness accounts of the time i turned into a newt…but no evidence. Of course by your reasoning i dont need ACTUAL evidence, so you should have no problem with believing me.
Oh and don’t worry, i changed back again…
I bet you look like a newt.
and i’d bet you would be 5. Maybe it’s nap time… you’re sounding a little grumpy
I have no problems discounting white tunnels, heavenly visits, seeing dead loved ones etc etc.
But when near death experiences have people actually claiming to LEAVE THEIR BODIES, and watching resuscitation efforts by others on themselves, sharing very pointed and SPECIFIC DETAILS about what happened to them (accounts including little children at times), that are ALSO fully corroborated by numerous EYE WITNESSES who just happened to BE THERE at the same time, in the same room, then such accounts have a very strong measure of credibility to them.
How else can you explain the details they say they saw and which are supported by other eye witness including doctors and nurses? Are all of these folks just lying? And what do they ALL possibly have to gain by doing so?
Sorry, but some folks here are just flat out in denial. I apologize if these accounts pop your world-view bubbles. Just telling you how it is…
Vinny
The random capitalization of words is not helping the credibility.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand REPOST for the random CAPITALISER called VINNY:
“There is a study currently underway which attempts to address the near-death, out-of-body experience.
Crash rooms, resuscitation rooms, operating theatres and emergency rooms all over the world have been talkeing part.
Here’s what they’ve done:
They’ve placed shelves high up on the walls and placed bizarre, colourful and eye-catching objects on those shelves in such a way that they can only be seen from ceiling height or above.
They’ve then interviewed every patient who has reported a near-death out-of-body experience and asked them one question: What was on those shelves?
Out of the hundreds (probably thousands by now) of respondants – not a single solitary one of them has noticed anything on the shelves.
Enough said.”
Byebye, Vinny’s argument! Byebye! You can make al lthe assertions you want of an “everybody knows” nature, but they don’t counter the truth.
Pah … I brush aside your RUBBISH so called science with PERSONAL experience and wishful THINIKING!!!!!!!!
Oh NO! Could it BE that JABSTER has DEFEATED me?
Crushed by the AWE-INSPIRING accuracy of EYE-WITNESS testimony!
I WONDER though: How EXACTLY does ONE eye-witness a SOUL?
With your THIRD eye, OBVIOUSLY! Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa…[cough]…aaaaaahhh!
… by the power of Mumm-Ra I shall crush you all!
Bwaaaaahahahahahaaah
Not one argument debunking anything at all.
Just lot’s of whining from poor folks in denial with blinders.
Ya gotta love it!
*yawns* present a real argument say like Custador has presented against NDE and then maybe there will be something to argue with. Hint: counting the number of hits from google isn’t an argument.
Quote: “Out of the hundreds (probably thousands by now) of respondants – not a single solitary one of them has noticed anything on the shelves.
Enough said.”
Byebye, Vinny’s argument! Byebye! You can make al lthe assertions you want of an “everybody knows” nature, but they don’t counter the truth.”
**** That’s it? Vinny loses and has to go home because some Joe without a clue posts dribble (without any sources) and claims some kind of sorry victory afterwards?
So here we go again… all these folks claiming to leave their bodies are full of bologna and worse.
And all those folks (like physicians, technicians, nurses, patients, family members etc) that fully corroborate what these folks say actually happened are all blowing smoke and in on some kind of sorry scheme. Only this SAME sorry scheme keeps happening all over the globe to believers, agnostics and atheists alike.
Hey, if you buy all that, then you need to see that waterfront property in Fla I can sell ya too.
: )
Very well done indeed, you really showed Custador there didn’t you?
Hmmm, the slight problem with ‘tards like yourself, Vinny, is an inability to read. If you scroll UP to where I posted that comment the first time, you’ll see links to the study concerned. I’d repost them for you, but at this point I couldn’t give a rat’s arse what you think. Read them or don’t.
Vinny, sweety, hun… do you know what dreams are?
When somebody believes they are dying they probably do see these things. My grandfather had an out of body experience the first time he had a heart attack. He says he watched himself on the operating table and the doctors around his body. The thing is that somewhere in his mind he knew where he was and what was happening. So his mind tried to compensate for that. He wouldn’t have been able to see what was on the shelves near the ceiling because he wasn’t really seeing, he was dreaming what he expected to see had he been concious. So these eyewitness accounts and anecdotes can’t be used as evidence because these ppl aren’t lying, but they didn’t really see it, they just saw it in their minds. It neither proves nor disproves the afterlife. I’m not trying to shoot down your beliefs, im simply trying to get you to think about it. In these circumstances eyewitness accounts aren’t enough, because they can so easily be mistaken for dreams or hallucinations, even wishfull thinking.
Just as a note: my grandfather did not become overly religious after that experience. He maintained it was something strange that happened that he could not explain until he really did die.
Quote: “So these eyewitness accounts and anecdotes can’t be used as evidence because these ppl aren’t lying, but they didn’t really see it, they just saw it in their minds.”
**** Okay then, so then ALL THOSE POOR FOLKS just had some silly dreams with specific details of events witnessed, which just so happened to be collaborated by many eyewitnesses.
And then we have even more accounts of people going to some heavenly-like location, seeing dead loved ones, a celestial being and more.
But they too all must be full of silly dreams and other bologna because you say so.
Like I said many times, who cares, we will all get to find out soon enough.
So if it makes you happier to believe death is the end of it all, then I say go for it!
Nobody stopping ya.
“Death is the end!”
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeeeeeeeeehhhhhaaaaaaawawwwwwwwwwww.
“No afterlife, NO paradise, NO reunions, NO everlasting life in heaven or anything else wonderful, blissful or happy!”
YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
“Death and nothing else is finally here!”
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Vinny
Worked out why using “over and out” is wrong yet or are you just going to spend the next couple of says repeating yourself over and over and over again in the hope that people can’t be arsed replying to you anymore. It’s called argument through boredom; it not’s a good debating technique but when your position is as weak as yours it probably the best chance you have to “claim a win” …
Poor Jabster.
Has no debating abilities.
No content at all.
Lot’s of whining about Vinny with nothing else.
I posted NUMEROUS examples here, examples with references, examples with e-mail addresses along with DEBUNKED nonsense after nonsense and sorry replies for days …. and all we get from folks in denial here is that these people are all lying, dreaming, hallucinating and worse.
BWAAAAAhahahahahahahahaha.
I’ve done this song and dance with the little people wearing blinders and living in denial many times now.
I was over it and I checked out of here. What I wrote stands, and your whining refuted!
Poor Jabster.
Vinny
@Vinny
“Worked out why using “over and out” is wrong yet …” – I’ll take that as a no then.
“or are you just going to spend the next couple of says repeating yourself over and over and over again in the hope that people can’t be arsed replying to you anymore.” — I’ll take that as a yes then.
“I was over it and I checked out of here.” — yet seem to be back just repeating the same thing over and over and over … ZZZzzzzzzzz … sorry almost nodded off with the exterme boredom of you just repeating exactly the same thing as you posted last week.
“… and your whining refuted!” — please look up refuted it doesn’t mean what you think it does.
Yes Jabster nodded off, that is easy to see. Jabster has no actual arguments so can only talk about Vinny. Whose arguments are all over this blog. Arguments with sources, references and actual e-mails to verify.
But yet all Jabster can do is whine about Vinny.
Poor Jabster.
Hey Jabster, here while this was for Amy, I’ll also donate it to you:
So if it makes you happier to believe death is the end of it all, then I say go for it!
Nobody stopping ya.
“Death is the end!”
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeeeeeeeeehhhhhaaaaaaawawwwwwwwwwww.
“No afterlife, NO paradise, NO reunions, NO everlasting life in heaven or anything else wonderful, blissful or happy!”
YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
“Death and nothing else is finally here!”
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Go Jabster!
Vinny
“Worked out why using “over and out” is wrong yet …” – I’ll take that as a no then.
“… and your whining refuted!” — please look up refuted it doesn’t mean what you think it does.
“Whose arguments are all over this blog. Arguments with sources, references and actual e-mails to verify.” — Arguments are a bit like opinions, everybody is entitled to one but that doesn’t mean that they are all equal. I’m not even sure whether you just repeating the same thing over and over and over again even counts as an argument.
Jabster whines that I have no new stuff to post. Even though he’s wrong, it’s not a bad idea actually because NOBODY refuted the old stuff. It’s all still up there.
But just so Jabster can’t whine all te time, I post some new things just for him.
These article came out within the past couple of days:
An excerpt from US NEWS found here:
http://health.usnews.com/blogs/on-men/2009/12/09/sanjay-gupta-discusses-his-new-book-cheating-death.html
“Cheating Death goes off medicine’s beaten path into near-death experiences and suspended animation. Is it time to up the credibility and profile of these fields?
The nice thing about writing a book like this is you don’t always know what you’re going to get when you’re heading in. I’ve been working on this book for several years. When I was first talking about this book and getting other people’s thoughts on it, near-death experiences came up a lot. What happens at the time of death to the individual, what are they experiencing? I thought it was a fair question. After exploring so many near-death experiences, I thought I could explain away most of what happens, but I can’t explain it all. I’ve got one of two branch points from there. Either at some point science is going to explain it all, or it’s OK not to know everything. It’s OK for there to be places in our society where there is an intersection of science and spirituality. If you’re someone who’s curious about those intersections, this may be one place to look.”
And how about this one too:
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2009/1209/p09s02-coop.html
This is why debating this subject is just too easy. Not one person has debunked one single claim.
NOT EVEN ONE!
I’ll check back in later on and see if anybody can post something other than everybody’s lying or dreaming or exaggerating along with their eyewitnesses nonsense.
Vinny
Yes, if they were all experiencing similar effects from a powerful hallucinogen, we should expect many reports to be similar, especially among people with a similar worldview, who are more likely to frame the experience in that way.
Also, I don’t think anyone would argue with you that eternal happiness would be unspeakably awesome, the best thing ever. But being desirable doesn’t make something true. I think my personality surviving my death is not just improbable, but impossible.
To many folks, accounts from people that have come as close to death as possible, and then brought back through resuscitation efforts, that have reported very specific details about leaving their bodies and reporting all that they saw while outside of their bodies (with many accounts being verified and supported by other eye-witness testimony), IS EVIDENCE, to many, that life does not end after physical death.
Many of these accounts are very credible. There are numerous powerful testimonies from children.
Whether your personality can live on after death or not is not my worry.
Maybe you should work on your personality then.
We all will find out soon enough anyway. Right?
Sorry if these actual accounts contradict your own beliefs. But you’ll be okay.
Vinny
No, personal testimony is not evidence. We can see and hear and feel and taste things that aren’t real. Those experiences are dreams, extremely vivid hallucinations. There are several naturalistic, plausible explanations for this phenomenon. Supernaturalistic explanations are not really explanations, positing an afterlife or a deity or anything magic is fantastically more complex than a simple, natural explanation.
Supernaturalists claim to know things that are fundamentally unknowable. Effective nonexistence is the same as regular nonexistence.
Quote: “No, personal testimony is not evidence.”
**** TAKE A WHIFF OF THIS: http://www.near-death.com/index.html
and…
http://www.nderf.org/archives_main.htm
But take off them there blinders first.
Quote: “We can see and hear and feel and taste things that aren’t real. Those experiences are dreams, extremely vivid hallucinations.”
**** Here we go again… ALL THEM FOLKS IS A LYING, HALLUCINATING OR DREAMING.
Even with eyewitness testimonies backing up many of their accounts.
Okay, sure.
@rA
Trying to argue with Vinny is like a broken pencil … pointless. He’s just posting the same “evidence” as he posted last week and just as last week he will ignore anything that is said to him and repeat the same thing again and again. Probably a troll if I had to take a guess.
near-death.com? Really? Would you take voodoo-is-awesome.com as evidence that voodoo exists? Or vedicwisdom.com as evidence for Hindu black magic?
Jabster whines that I have no new stuff to post. Even though he’s wrong, it’s not a bad idea actually because NOBODY refuted the old stuff. It’s all still up there.
But just so Jabster can’t whine all te time, I post some new things just for him.
These article came out within the past couple of days:
An excerpt from US NEWS found here:
http://health.usnews.com/blogs/on-men/2009/12/09/sanjay-gupta-discusses-his-new-book-cheating-death.html
“Cheating Death goes off medicine’s beaten path into near-death experiences and suspended animation. Is it time to up the credibility and profile of these fields?
The nice thing about writing a book like this is you don’t always know what you’re going to get when you’re heading in. I’ve been working on this book for several years. When I was first talking about this book and getting other people’s thoughts on it, near-death experiences came up a lot. What happens at the time of death to the individual, what are they experiencing? I thought it was a fair question. After exploring so many near-death experiences, I thought I could explain away most of what happens, but I can’t explain it all. I’ve got one of two branch points from there. Either at some point science is going to explain it all, or it’s OK not to know everything. It’s OK for there to be places in our society where there is an intersection of science and spirituality. If you’re someone who’s curious about those intersections, this may be one place to look.”
And how about this one too:
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2009/1209/p09s02-coop.html
This is why debating this subject is just too easy. Not one person has debunked one single claim.
NOT EVEN ONE!
I’ll check back in later on and see if anybody can post something other than everybody’s lying or dreaming or exaggerating along with their eyewitnesses nonsense.
Vinny
@rA
Don’t be silly how can personal evidence be taken for real evidence … well unless it supports your own beliefs then it’s rock solid evidence.
Okay, so one person says they witnessed Jabster steal the old lady’s purse.
No big deal, agreed.
But when thousands say they saw Jabster steal the old lady’s purse, then we all know what happens to the Jabster.
And all through, “personal testimony”.
Poor Jabster.
He keeps losing.
Vinny
The thousands, presumably, were conscious when the purse was stolen. Unless they all dreamed it. Which wouldn’t be evidence.
(By the way, even conscious, anecdotes are terribly unreliable, they are a memory of a perception of an event. Thousands might be pretty convincing, though.)
http://www.wirenot.net/X/Articles/2009/T/toohotbutnotmytime.shtml
Just another story with an eyewitness and e-mail address to boot.
Yes, the eyewitnesses ARE CONSCIOUS. Hello out there…. are YOU conscious though?
That’s my point entirely. You have many eyewitnesses, whose detailed accounts, support the very out of body experiences that many people claim to have had.
Get it yet?
Oh, silly me, all those accounts are dreams, hallucinations and fabrications.
And all them eyewitnesses are in on the little schemes too.
Bwaaaaaahahahahahahahhaahhahaha
Poor little guys with blinders and in complete denial.
You gotta love em anyway.
Vinny
It’s late out here. I’ll check back to hand out more SPANKINGS another day.
Hey Jabster, “OVER AND OUT” again for now.
heh
Poor little guy.
Vinny
@rA
The brain can be just awful at working out what is really happening and believing what you want to believe. Try the ring pregnancy test to see what I mean — take a piece of cotton and tie it to a ring. Hold the cotton between you thumb and finger and then “will” the ring to move either clockwise or anti-clockwise and it will move without you thinking you are doing anything. The other weird one to try is when relaxed in bed at night imagine that blood is pumping to your hands and it actually feels as though you hands are getting bigger. I rather strange sensation indeed.
Of course it also well documented that the brain can be tricked into believing things happened that just never did …
Vinny, there are thousands of eyewitnesses for UFO’s too. Do you believe in aliens?
Is it just my imagination or is Vinny coming accross as about a 14 year-old netwarrior type who’s too stupid to see that he hasn’t proven a bloody thing yet but who’ll claim the argument won anyway?
Vinny, there’s something completely basic that you don’t seem to understand.
An eyewitness is someone who can independently verify the testimony of the person who had an experience. So far I don’t think you’ve posted a single case where someone was actually an eyewitness to anything going on outside the head of the person having the actual NDE experience.
It goes without saying that nobody can share the mental experience of someone going into NDE, but there should be other methods of verifying that NDE is more than just a product of chemistry and physiology. These would include the NDE person gaining insights and/or powers, other people witnessing strange phenomena, etc.
But you just keep posting stories about people that say how life-changing the experience was and how they’re certain it had something to do with an afterlife. Actual evidence would consist of actual eyewitnesses independently corroborating the story of the person having the NDE. The stories you keep posting are useless in this regard. We’re not disputing these people had an incredible experience (which is also why we’re not really impressed that these people publish their email-addresses). But their experiences are by themselves in no way evidence of an afterlife. You ought to be able to understand that much.
Personally, I’m getting fed up with all your “thousands” and “millions” of eyewitnesses that are not eyewitnesses in any meaningful sense of the word. Please provide some actual, independent eyewitness testimonies supporting NDE. Until then, you’re just producing noise.
@Custador
In a nut shell yep that’s what he sounds like or my current view … he’s just a troll.
A. I never said i did not believe in an afterlife, im simply stating that you cannot say that the afterlife exists because of these eyewitness accounts. The point is that there is no proof either way, so it’s totally up to belief. I personally don’t know what i believe, my logic tells me one thing and personal experience tells me another. So i don’t know, i do know that eyewitnesses prove nothing in this case.
B. The stories collaborated because we have all heard the same near death experience stories…you see what you expect. The same goes for those who have seen family and God, that’s what they want to see in death, so isn’t it possible that these are the images their minds have provided them with?
C. I know other ppl have said this but repeating yourself is not an effective argumentative technique. We got it…eyewitnesses…we didnt buy it so MOVE ON!
D. Have a herbal tea and calm down. No one would insult you if you just opened your mind a little to differing points of view. That’s what you’re asking the others to do so that’s what you need to do.
Oh and E. stop speaking in the third person, very few people can pull that off.
For those of you still in denial, and who would like to label all those eyewitness testimonies as coming from worthless liars, take a whiff of THIS:
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
The site is one set up to hype NDEs so they can sell books about them.
I’ll take Wikipedia over that, for sure.
Quote: “The site is one set up to hype NDEs so they can sell books about them. I’ll take Wikipedia over that, for sure.”
**** Bwaaaaahahahahaaaahahahahaha
Yep, all those accounts/experiences along with all eyewitnesses are filled with liars and exaggerations just to “sell some books”.
Ya just gotta love seeing folks in denial like this.
With poor arguments like this who needs me?
It is not a poor argument to point out the clear bias of the site being proffered as presenting “evidence”. It’s actually not an argument at all. It is simply good practice.
There are so many THOUSANDS of experiences and websites filled with examples of people who have come as close to death as possible and then brought back to life while reporting leaving their bodies and and sharing very specific details that are often supported by other eyewitness testimonies.
But let me guess, they’re ALL exaggerating or lying right?
Both those who experienced the near death accounts and those eyewitnesses supporting their accounts.
Yep they’re all a bunch of lying bums.
: )
You sure like your THOUSANDS. Why is it that out of all the allegedly THOUSANDS of indisputable examples you only link to one single site containing only a handful of testimonials involving anything verifiable, such as people recounting their physical surroundings at the time of their NDE?
And why do these cases lack any sources enabling people to actually verify them? Why is it always “one patient” or “an elderly lady” or some guy named “Jack”? That is about as trustworthy as testimonials in a mail-order catalogue.
Here, chomp on a little bit of this for a few years:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=Near+Death+Experiences&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10
Google WebShow options…
Results 1 – 10 of about (((28,500,000)))) for Near Death Experiences [definition]. (0.35 seconds)
and
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=out+of+body+experience&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Google
Advanced Search
WebShow options…
Results 1 – 10 of about 1,150,000,000 for out of body experience. (0.13 seconds)
Have fun.
Vinny
I get 33,000,000 hits when I google for “dragon” and 68,400,000 hits when I google for “god”. So what? That is not proof of the existence of either one.
Please attempt to actually state your case. A good beginning would be a comprehensive list of these THOUSANDS of NDE cases, preferably with verifiable references. Don’t tell me someone hasn’t compiled already such a list if there are all these supposedly irrefutable examples. It should be easy for you.
By the way, it’s easy to inflate Google’s search result when you don’t search for a specific sentence.
http://www.near-death.com/index.html
Go ahead, you can read THOUSANDS in one simple location with links and sources.
And once you are done (I’ll give you a could months) then let me know what you find.
And here’s more:
http://www.near-death.com/links.html
And why not a few more just to keep the blinders off a little longer:
http://www.nderf.org/archives_main.htm
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF_NDEs.htm
Now remember, you gotta be willing to take those little blinders off for at least a little while. You can always put them back on later on though. We’ll make sure you can still have them when done.
So no worries.
Vinny
Okay so a Google search with over (((( 28 MILLION )))) is inflated. Let’s just get rid of 90 percent of that inflation then. How’s that sound to you?
So (((( 2.8 MILLION )))) should keep you busy then.
And oh yeah, every one of them is lying and full of Oscar Mayar bologna salami, I guess.
Same with all those eyewitnesses too..
: )
…
What, Google statistics count too? There’s 2.460.000 results for “unicorn”. Do unicorns automatically exist now?
And how many folks seeing “unicorns” have eye numerous witnesses supporting the very same claims at the very same time?
Try searching with quotes. Your search results will be reduced to 373,000 and 533,000 hits.
Not that it matters, though. If you want to use the number of Google hits as evidence, you get beat hands down by both Allah, Buddha and unicorns.
Like I said, try presenting us with a list of all these thousands of cases. Surely it should be easy for you to actually back up your claims in a verifiable manner?
Several, actually. It was neither unusual nor unheard of, in the past. Much like every other mythological creature.
In fact, if you don’t like unicorns: Loch Ness monster. How many thousands of people claim to have seen it? How many of them had eyewitnesses with them? The same about UFOs. Do you believe it all?
So because you think those that have claimed to see Loch Ness are lying, then all those that have claimed out of body experiences, including those with eyewitnesses supporting their specific claims, are all to be discounted as fabrications as well?
That’s a pretty big stretch don’t you think?
Vinny, consider this:
It may not actually be so much about those eyewitneses lying (or just being honestly mistaken), as it may be about those eyewitnesses never existing in the first place.
How are we supposed to verify these accounts – which are usually presented by someone with an obvious bias – when they have no references other than “this old lady” and “a patient who talked to his surgeon”?
That’s pretty weak stuff. Of course, if you could present that list I’ve been asking for – the one that has even remotely verfiable sources – I might consider taking you seriously. Until then, your claims are really no different from, say, testifimonials from people who experienced a miraculous healing or saw a UFO. Lots of eyewitnesses, many of them no doubt sincere, but never a scrap of independent verification or evidence.
With poor arguments like this who needs me?
Who, indeed?
Please, go peddle your woo elsewhere.
Peddle what? I realize your world of belief crumbles if these accounts are legit. But life is full of disappointments. You’ll have to be a big boy and just take it.
Or, let me guess, all these folks are lying. And all of the eyewitnesses that support their claims are lying too.
BWAAAAAAhahahahaahhahahahahahah
What a hoot!
Yo Vinny (in my best NY accent) some folks here might actually be open to what you had to say…if only you could say it sans the obnoxious and condescending tone eh? Just a thought.
Honey is still sweeter than vinegar anyday.
Have you read their replies to me? I’d be happy to quote it if you want.
Laughable stuff for sure.
I’m just finishing off what they started.
This thread is one poor showing for those stuck in denial with blinders on.
Aren’t you the believer here? If so, then what does it matter how they respond, what did you expect? How ’bout holding yourself to the higher standard, regardless.
That would be admirable, dare I say…Christlike?
All the best Vinny
No worries, I won’t be spending much more time here anyway. I do have a busy week coming up. And have mowed down sad replies plenty already.
And yes I do believe in God. Is it the God of the bible? Not necessarily.
But I think taking time to show facts as they are, even if using a stronger delivery, is a reasonable thing to do.
Sometimes folks with blinders need a little EXTRA effort.
So Vinny, dont keep us in stitches, tell us what/Who do you believe friend?
Who is your “God”?
Why not! I’ve been asked this before and will just paste it here now.
No, I am not a member of any one Christian denomination at this time.
Perhaps down the road I will feel differently.
Yet I am very spiritual today and walk with my Heavenly Father (whomever God is) every day that I’m alive. I pray to God and do not hesitate to say that I feel his hand and help in my life today. I still walk with God (as a Christian) because I am most comfortable and familiar with Christianity at this time.
Is Christianity the only way to have an acceptable relationship with God today? I cannot say for a certainty, of course, but nor can anybody else, IMO. But I do not think one needs to be a Christian to have God’s approval and help today.
In fact there is numerous, convincing evidence that the bible has many mistakes and is not the ‘infallible’ word of God. There is compelling evidence for example that a global never never happened within the past 4000 years.
http://www.asa3.org/aSA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf
and:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
There are all kinds of powerful testimonies where God has helped and directed God and Peace loving Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Mormons and many more as well as Christians and spiritual people with no specific religion at all.
You see, for me (and most people) there is conclusive evidence surrounding us that a powerful, creative, intellectual force is responsible for the universe, earth and all life thereon, so I believe.
And to many this would be God.
By speaking to this intelligent, powerful force one can connect and have a personal relationship with God from what I have seen.
It matters not whether one is Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or anything else. The facts bear this out time and again.
God, IMO, does not exist inside of any one of these religions (or any other “one faith”) exclusively.
I do not see any evidence of this. He is greater than and transcends all religious institutions on the earth today in my honest opinion.
Even atheists are welcomed and have access to God today.
God has helped me as well. And I am 100 percent convinced of this. No doubts about it.
There is no question that I have felt his undeniable power, guidance and comfort many times in my own life. But it’s when seeking God (whomever God may be) and asking for his help, strength and direction have I felt this personal connection and his very presence during my own existence on this earth today.
I believe our Heavenly Father has put us all on this earth as a sort of journey that results in greater qualities in us than if we never existed on the earth at all.
Compassion, mercy, humility, endurance, reliance, strength, empathy, love, fortitude, wisdom and so many other qualities are developed because of our time here dealing with what we call LIFE.
The earth was designed in such a way, which proves to me, that this challenging experience is what God desires for all humans.
Earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, lightning strikes, floods, asteroids, tornados and more are not man originating, man caused events. God must have DESIGNED this earth with these very things being a very real possibility every single day.
(For those that say man causes all these problems, how then do you account for these earthquakes, asteroids, hurricanes, tsunamis, lightning strikes, tornados, volcanic eruptions and things similar? Man is not responsible for any of these things.
So then, there must be some purpose in God’s creating the earth this way with natural disasters as a part of the life experience.
For one, these natural disasters make us THINK. They can cause us to search for something greater than these things and something that is greater than us.
These and other events can make us aware of our own mortality and limitations. (My own Father’s death at just 15 years old changed everything for me).
They can cause us to examine spiritual things and to ask questions as well as seek answers. There are many spiritually based comments expressed on these kinds of public forums around the web.
These things that make up a part of living can help develop greater qualities than existed before our experiencing this life with all of its many challenges.
LIFE IS A VALUABLE JOURNEY THAT GOD HAS PURPOSED FOR US.
We learn balance. We learn to take care of our bodies or suffer consequences when neglecting our health.
We need food, water, air, sleep and more. We learn to balance work with rest, daily chores with recreation. We see firsthand what happens when we lose such balance.
We are free moral agents and can decide for ourselves what is right and wrong through this process of living. And we also then see the benefits and consequences of these decisions we make while on the earth.
Yet through it all I believe God is there for those that come to him and look to him for assistance, guidance, support and so much more. This is what I have seen too many times to count from people all over the globe, myself included.
He does not make people worship him. It is up to us as individuals that want this help and search for Him and to develop a personal relationship. But He is always there, IMO.
I believe after this life ends, we will finally find out all of the specifics and all of the answers most are searching for right now, today.
There is already powerful evidence, to many, that something spectacular and extraordinary is what awaits us humans after we die.
So many people, having near death experiences, have related similar stories about leaving their bodies and going to a heavenly-like location with incredible features, bliss-like feelings, seeing loved ones that have already died and more.
Many of these verifiable accounts share specific details about what happened in their hospital rooms or other near-death locations that they would never have known unless actually outside of their bodies.
Even children, having died, have shared specific details that medical professionals say they could never have known unless they were outside of their often confirmed as lifeless bodies.
I do not believe these young children are all lying.
For many this is convincing evidence something better awaits us humans after this life. This makes sense to me too.
Atheists have become believers through these accounts. I have read many of these experiences myself.
And it made no difference whether the person was of a particular faith.
PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS HAVE THESE VERY SAME VERIFIABLE OUT OF BODY NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES.
I believe God likely transcends all religious institutions on the earth today.
He is far greater than the little boxes people often choose to put him inside of.
And whatever it is that awaits us after death will be wonderful.
To me, Life is a precious lesson for all human beings today.
If all we ever experienced was a perfect heavenly like existence, how then would living beings appreciate the good they have if the good was all they ever knew?
I consider it similar to what we often see when kids of wealthy parents are born in Hollywood for example, with a silver spoon in their mouth. Spoiled, everything being easy and handed to them people often lack depth, appreciation, balance, spirituality, sense of justice and more. Many are lazy, unappreciative, and often missing important human qualities.
Imagine how much more so if all they ever had seen and known was heaven, complete perfection and bliss-like, heavenly existence.
But then eventually life and death and reality catches up to even the kids with a silver spoon as they get older.
So why not create an earth, with all of these natural disasters as being a real possibility along with seeing animals that kill savagely, along with death of yourself and loved ones being a very real part of the living experience on the earth?
Why not create a type of obstacle course like life-journey where people gain greater qualities and become stronger and better rounded because of this process known as life?
Why not put our life-force into limited, imperfect flesh and blood human bodies to allow us to experience all sorts of things?
And let’s not forget life is also filled with many good things along the way.
For most, there is much much more good than bad in fact. Love and family, great food, colorful sunsets, laughter, entertainment, sports, pets, children, beaches with turquoise water, sex, building things, achievements, romance etc etc on and on we can go.
But when we search for God, and ask for his help, there is no doubt for most people that he is there for us.
Our Heavenly Creator does not always answer our requests and prayers when we want him to. As probably all people from faiths can agree.
But he definitely does hear us, IMO, and will always, it seems, give us the strength to cope and endure with anything that comes our way in this amazing journey of life.
And for many of us that alone can make all the difference in the world!
Like I said I do not have all the answers either. And I do not need all the answers. And I have not dug my heels in needing to be right, but have always been open to other viewpoints.
Nor have I stopped thinking about these things.
Doing so has helped me to do just what I’ve been doing; to think deeply about these things for myself. And, to be more open-minded and tolerant of other beliefs than I ever was before.
Well since you asked…
Vinny
Quote: “I’ll take Wikipedia over that, for sure.”
**** Well here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_death_experience
Be sure you read about how atheists converted too.
heh
Uh, OK. Just read the Wikipedia article. Seemed to back up pretty much what I’ve been saying. Several plausible physical mechanisms for the phenomenological experience, none of which require a non-physical soul. None of the junk you’ve been spouting about eye-witnesses and copious evidence of objective experience. It’s something that sometimes happens in your brain when you are near death or in other trauma, and that’s the whole story.
The article did note that some people find these explanations inconclusive and hold out for a non-physical explanation. Given that there’s fairly little research on the subject and people will fill whatever gaps you give them with whoo-woo when given the chance, this is not surprising. But it is not “evidence” of non-physical out-of-body experience.
Quote: “It’s something that sometimes happens in your brain when you are near death or in other trauma, and that’s the whole story.”
**** Once again you SKIP OVER all of the details given, supported and verified by eyewitnesses.
You’d just like to lump them all together as dreams or hallucinations.
How come? Is it because it it would then shatter your little world view bubble?
Accounts labeled by skeptics as, dreams or hallucinations “in the brain”, that are then supported by very credible eyewitnesses (as actually happening) are no longer dreams or hallucinations, now are they?
So sorry. You’ll have to deal with evidence on your lap as it is.
Quote: “The random capitalization of words is not helping the credibility.”
**** Too bad you can’t refute the ARGUMENTS themselves.
And instead try to talk about caps (which are used for emphasis, just like above) since we have no italics or underlining available to use on this blog.
But since you can’t deal with the arguments themselves, guess you need to find something to write about.
: )
If you had used italics instead of capitalization in those locations, it would have been nearly as silly.
You make no sense again.
“You may use these HTML tags and attributes:”
It’s right below the text box. I don’t know how you could have
missedfailed to see it.Quote: ““You may use these HTML tags and attributes:It’s right below the text box. I don’t know how you could have missed failed to see it.”
**** I guess because I use a Mac and Safari, I see nothing at all. But that’s fairly common.
Well hunny, I also use a Mac and Safari and I can see it.
I also use an iPhone and Safari and I can see it, too.
I cannot italicize, underline or use bold fonts for any of my text on this blog. Simple fact of life folks.
So I use CAPS when wanting to emphasize specific points.
And when people wear blinders and skip over all sorts or facts and arguments and instead making silly accusations you tend to do that often to get through all those blinders and denial problems.
heh
“**** I guess because I use a Mac and Safari, I see nothing at all. But that’s fairly common.”
Considering your willful ignorance this is not surprising.
Hey, let’s talk about CAPS because we sure can’t explain away all those out of body experiences, with specific details presented; which in many cases are supported by numerous eyewitness testimony.
Living in Denial sure is one tough deal.
The same can be said about living in delusions.
Tough luck, that.
So-called,”Delusions” that just so happen to be repeated all over the world, with numerous eyewitnesses collaborating those claims, are not quite delusions now are they?
The same can be said about god(s), mm? After all, several million people claim to have witnessed miracles, all over the world. Some of them quite accurately described. Are they all true?
So the body can die and be brought back, but thinking that the brain could do the same is ridiculous? This is his big argument that is supposedly making atheists worried? Tsk tsk…sad.
The FACTS show me that no one religion has the truth.
The FACTS show me that the bible is not the infallible word of God.
The FACTS show me that when people die something lives on.
Dispute any of the above, AND THEN SHOW ME THE MONEY, and I’ll sign up.
But nobody on this thread has done anything but label all these folks as lying/exaggerating and all those witnesses as joining them and in on the little schemes too.
Which is some pretty sorry stuff to read from folks in denial.
Vinny
Frankly, I don’t give a crap if “something” lives on or not. I don’t care, unlike you. You’re so sure of yourself it’s pathetic – you can’t even consider the possibility of being wrong.
Me? I may be wrong, but I don’t give a damn. I’ll find out when I die. I’m not afraid of ceasing to exist – neither of continuing to exist.
I just won’t buy somebody’s story (or even “thousands” of somebody’s story) because you want me to. Is all.
Prove it and I’ll believe you. Anedoctes are entertaining and prove jack shit.
I don’t care what you believe. But I’ll be happy to explain and defend why I believe something, even if different than you.
If you wish to try to refute what I believe then please do. That’s what debate is all about.
And when a better argument is presented, then hopefully we are humble enough to recognize it sooner or later.
You’re happy to defend and explain, you say. Fine, then a good start would be to present us with a list of all your thousands of irrefutable NDE cases backed up by eyewitnesses. You keep throwing that claim around, but so far you have failed to back it up in any verifiable way.
Are you okay? There are just too many for me to post here. Do your own homework.
But just to keep you from complaining about it and saying there are none, I’ll post just a few. Do your own research now.
Example 1: An elderly woman had been blind since childhood. But, during her NDE, the woman had regained her sight and she was able to accurately describe the instruments and techniques used during the resuscitation her body. After the woman was revived, she reported the details to her doctor. She was able to tell her doctor who came in and out, what they said, what they wore, what they did, all of which was true. Her doctor then referred the woman to Moody who he knew was doing research at the time on NDEs.
Example 2: One patient told Moody, After it was all over the doctor told me that I had a really bad time, and I said, Yeah, I know.’ He said, Well, how do you know?’ and I said, I can tell you everything that happened.’ He didn’t believe me, so I told him the whole story, from the time I stopped breathing until the time I was kind of coming around. He was really shocked to know that I knew everything that had happened. He didn’t know quite what to say, but he came in several times to ask me different things about it.
Example 3: In another instance a woman with a heart condition was dying at the same time that her sister was in a diabetic coma in another part of the same hospital. The subject reported having a conversation with her sister as both of them hovered near the ceiling watching the medical team work on her body below. When the woman awoke, she told the doctor that her sister had died while her own resuscitation was taking place. The doctor denied it, but when she insisted, he had a nurse check on it. The sister had, in fact, died during the time in question.
Example 4: A dying girl left her body and into another room in the hospital where she found her older sister crying and saying:
“Oh, Kathy, please don’t die, please don’t die.”
The older sister was quite baffled when, later, Kathy told her exactly where she had been and what she had been saying during this time.
“After it was all over, the doctor told me that I had a really bad time, and I said, “Yeah, I know.”
He said, “Well, how do you know?”
And I said, “I can tell you everything that happened.”
He didn’t believe me, so I told him the whole story, from the time I stopped breathing until the time I was kind of coming around. He was really shocked to know that I knew everything that had happened. He didn’t know quite what to say, but he came in several times to ask me different things about it.
When I woke up after the accident, my father was there, and I didn’t even want to know what sort of shape I was in, or how I was, or how the doctors thought I would be. All I wanted to talk about was the experience I had been through. I told my father who had dragged my body out of the building, and even what color clothes that person had on, and how they got me out, and even about all the conversation that had been going on in the area.
And my father said, “Well, yes, these things were true.”
Yet, my body was physically out this whole time, and there was no way I could have seen or heard these things without being outside of my body.
I just hope if I am ever charged with a crime I didn’t commit people like you are on the jury. Not one of these stories has any legitimate evidence but you act as if it is beyond reproach, you live in such a fantasy world.
Oops I meant aren’t on the jury
I’d love to be on your jury. I’d base any decision on an honest look at all of the information. The only reason you’d wish I wasn’t there is if you were GUILTY.
Example 1: was she having eye surgery?
An excerpt from TIME:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1842627,00.html?cnn=yes
What was your first interview like with someone who had reported an out-of-body experience?
Eye-opening and very humbling. Because what you see is that, first of all, they are completely genuine people who are not looking for any kind of fame or attention. In many cases they haven’t even told anybody else about it because they’re afraid of what people will think of them. I have about 500 or so cases of people that I’ve interviewed since I first started out more than 10 years ago. It’s the consistency of the experiences, the reality of what they were describing. I managed to speak to doctors and nurses who had been present who said these patients had told them exactly what had happened, and they couldn’t explain it. I actually documented a few of those in my book What Happens When We Die because I wanted people to get both angles —not just the patients’ side but also the doctors’ side — and see how it feels for the doctors to have a patient come back and tell them what was going on. There was a cardiologist that I spoke with who said he hasn’t told anyone else about it because he has no explanation for how this patient could have been able to describe in detail what he had said and done. He was so freaked out by it that he just decided not to think about it anymore.
I could post thousands just like this.
I’ve argued quite enough.
Again, I don’t think all those people are lying. I just don’t think they’ve seen what they think they’ve seen.
Court experience shows it’s pretty damn easy to convince an eyewitness that s/he saw something that s/he didn’t see. It’s why judges are iffy on convincting people on eyewitness’s testimony alone (and why, over my court, so many cases are closed for lack of evidence). There’s even been a case recently over here of a couple that was erroneously convicted of having raped kids. The kids would all repeat, very consistently, that they were touched improperly by the couple, that they suffered violence, when it never happened. There wasn’t a single physical evidence of the alleged abuses. There was no sign the kids were hurt at all, yet both children and parents would testify that they were abused.
That’s why I discount eyewitness accounts. Because people’s minds and memories are fluid.
Now, present me with evidence beyond eyewitness accounts – say, filling Custador’s test – and then I may begin to believe it. Right now? It’s as irrelevant as people who claim Aunt Floey was cured of her cancer through the power of Jeezus.
Quote: “Court experience shows it’s pretty damn easy to convince an eyewitness that s/he saw something that s/he didn’t see. It’s why judges are iffy on convincting people on eyewitness’s testimony alone (and why, over my court, so many cases are closed for lack of evidence).”
**** Yet judges WILL CONVICT PEOPLE on just the eyewitness testimony of others. And if you have several eyewitnesses then the credibility and actual testimony is even greater.
People all over the world have had near death experiences. People all over the world have had out of body experiences where they were able to describe very specific details about what was happening to their lifeless bodies at specific times and places. And in many of those instances there were other people there to fully verify that what was reported as having happened.
If you feel better lumping all those accounts together as mere fabrications on the part of both the party involved as well as all witnesses, then that’s your prerogative. I think it’s closed minded.
If it just doesn’t matter, that’s fine too. But this is a thread about that very subject and I simply stopped by to share my point of view. You can take it or leave it, but there’s nothing wrong with my doing it.
And the justice is always right, isn’t it? Like in the case of the couple I mentioned?
The truth is, people may be abso-fuckin’-lutely convinced that they’ve seen something without ever seeing said thing. I refuse to take people’s words on face value alone. That’s just not how reality works – how many millions of people are absolutely sure they’ve seen the Loch Ness monster without it ever being found?
I’d rather be close minded than have a mind so open the brain falls off. No, I don’t think they’re all fabrications. But I also have no proof whatsoever that it is what they think it is, any more than I’ve proof that “strange lights in the sky” are alien spacecrafts. There’s nothing, absolutely nothing, suggesting that anything survives death. Anedoctes are not enough. They aren’t more enough the claims of thousands of people who claim to have been cured, to have seen someone cured.
It’s not enough.
Er, not millions, hundreds, in the first acc. I don’t think that many people care to visit the lake. I was writing something else and then changed my mind mid-sentence. The millions was actually related to miracles – how many millions of people have claimed to have experienced miracles of some kind or another?
Quote: “Not one of these stories has any legitimate evidence but you act as if it is beyond reproach, you live in such a fantasy world.”
**** I guess in the end it really doesn’t matter does it? There are literally millions (not just thousands) of near death experiences that have been reported and documented during the past century alone. Many of these credible accounts offer more than just a personal experience by the subject, but also include specific details about what the witnessed while out of their bodies which have been supported by other credible people that were there.
There is no getting around this.
The testimonies of these people are available for anybody interested. Just use the world wide web and see!
Not all are believable, that is a certainty. But many are very credible and believable along with being backed up by other eyewitnesses as well.
In the end it really does not seem to matter. If God transcends religion, as I believe, then we will all find out sooner or later what happens.
But there are, for myself and most people today, very compelling reasons to believe that much more awaits after this life is over.
The evidence is clear and it is available to all.
All the best,
Vinny
Vinny–
You are not reading. Provide the accounts WITH reliable sources for EACH account. Why do YOU keep ignoring that request?!
Unless, of course, you are full of it. Nah, I’m sure you have those sources…
:)
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
Poor guy. Maybe you are going blind as well as have those blinders to deal with at the same time.
When you click on the link above, and scroll down, you will see plenty or sources quoted. Do your own homework next time you want something.
If you cannot see those sources clearly quoted then put on some reading glasses and try again.
: )
http://www.near-death.com/forum.html
More names with personal testimonies.
http://www.beyondreligion.com/su_personal/obe-index.htm
More names with personal stories and e-mail contact.
I have a busy week laid out, so will be leaving this discussion.
Plus I believe most of my points have been made by now.
There are simply too many near death experiences along with out of body experiences across the globe to simply lump them all as being bogus and to try to conveniently dismiss them.
Much information has been presented in this discussion alone.
Specific details, that could never have been known unless actually leaving one’s body during times of documented near death, along with numerous eyewitness testimonies and support, offer convincing evidence to many people that life, in some form, continues on after physical death.
This is not mere wishful thinking or fantasy-land nonsense. These are often legitimate, verified, credible experiences and accounts by decent human beings all over the world. Again and again and again.
And soon enough we’ll all get to find out the facts as they truly are.
Thanks for the interchange.
My best to all,
Vinny
“I have a busy week laid out, so will be leaving this discussion.”
Translation: I have no real evidence so I’ll give up now.
“Plus I believe most of my points have been made by now.”
Yes and very convincing they where too …
“And soon enough we’ll all get to find out the facts as they truly are.”
… at which point you’re just ignore the facts because a friend of a friend had an Aunt who’s convinced that NDEs are really true.
Bwaaaaahahahaahahahaah
AAAAAhahahhhhhahhahaha
This little crybaby NOW wants to chime in … (((( only after I say Goodbye )))).
And with NO arguments posted anywhere.
Just whining and crying with ZERO content posted.
You just gotta love folks like this.
Okay, you may continue now.
Poor guy.
What a hoot!
Ok then I’ll present and argument in your style …
I’ve got a MATE who says the NDEs are a pile of WANK and if you google NDE wank YOU get 1.7 million hits …. BWWWWAAAHAHAH (Is this good enough for you?)
p.s. You never use over and out, it’s either over or out.
Ok, one last ENCORE RETURN!
So the little Jabster wants to be Vinny! How bout that!
Hey Jabster, want me to autograph this thread for ya too?
Hey Jabster, maybe you can get a short haircut and mustache so you can look like Vinny too.
What you say Jabster?
Hey folks, Jabster wants to be Vinny!
Quote from the Jabster: “Ive got a MATE who says the NDEs are a pile of WANK and if you google NDE wank YOU get 1.7 million hits …. BWWWWAAAHAHAH (Is this good enough for you?) p.s. You never use over and out, it’s either over or out.”
**** And Vinny’s reply:
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHH
Not a very good try of Jabster being vinny.
Hey Jabster, to be Vinny you can’t just laugh at boring, lame arguments (or lack of, just like yours).
You also got to post arguments/content/links/rebuttals/smackdowns and mow down sorry replies from folks wearing blinders and in total denial.
Just like you see here.
Maybe one day you can try to do that.
But today was sure not that day.
Being Vinny is harder than you thought. Poor Jabster.
Hey Jabster, you might want to start off with using a spell-check first though. Just a little tip for ya there.
And Jabster, I almost forgot; Saying over and OUT makes perfect sense when somebody makes a final post on a thread.
I am OVER this one… and … OUT OF HERE!
Maybe next time you try to be Vinny you’ll get somewhere.
Cheers!
Vinny
“And Jabster, I almost forgot; Saying over and OUT makes perfect sense when somebody makes a final post on a thread.”
No it doesn’t and I’ll leave you to work out why …
Where’s Jabster’s arguments folks?
Where’s Jabsters content folks?
Let’s see if we can find it. Maybe he’s really offered a contribution here.
Let’s LOOK…
………
…. nothing yet…
……
Nope still nothing at all from Jabster
………
BORING….
………
NOPE NOTHING, NADA, ZIPPO, ZILCH!
I wonder what Jabster jabs? Maybe he/she/it jabs paper bags.
Cause nothing at all here.
: )
Over and OUT!
Vinny
You just don’t seem to get it, Vinny. Nobody is disputing that a lot of people have had NDE experiences (though the “millions” number sounds like a number you just pulled out of your ass. Before it was thousands, now it’s suddenly millions).
What we dispute is that their experience is evidence of an actual afterlife, rather than simply the result of oxygen deprivation, drugs, and misfiring synapses. None of the links you’ve provided contains evidence to the contrary. The most concrete you’ve provided so far are these two lists of testimonials:
http://www.near-death.com/forum.html
http://www.beyondreligion.com/su_personal/obe-index.htm
I read all the testimonials in the first list and the first 30 testimonials in the second, and the only story that actually had some relation to the physical world, rather than just being people relating their experience and their belief in god or angels, was about a boy relating what his mother did while he wasn’t present. This is not hard to explain, and it wasn’t even an NDE experience.
So please, provide us with something that is unexplainable and verifiable. Right now, you’re just waisting our time throwing links to us that don’t even support your own argument – ie. that NDEs prove an afterlife.
Trj,
If you read those accounts and are not persuaded, then I can certainly respect that. Good enough. For me, those accounts, as well as some books I’ve read along with too many others to even remember DO OFFER conclusive proof to me that something lives on after physical death.
As I’ve said more times than we can count, there is no way somebody can report actually leaving their body, share very specific details regarding what they saw happening, have others in the same room collaborate those very same details, without actually doing what they claimed. If it were only one account then sure, count me out too.
But we literally have these events all over the globe from people of all faiths (and no faiths), cultures and backgrounds.
Those are powerfully convincing stories for me.
If not for you then fair enough. At least my side has been presented.
Now, before I get involved anymore on this thread, I have a packed week ahead and need to focus on work. It’s now getting late. We live in Hawaii and the economy has tanked out here for the past year.
So, I appreciate your points of view and can simply agree to disagree with you and anybody else that feels the same.
Eventually we will all find out soon enough!
Have a good one.
Happy Trails for now! (I’m shutting down).
Vinny
And here is your sin.
Your take these people at face value. You disregard the fact that people’s testimonies may be biased, not because they’re all filthy liars, but because that’s how the mind works – people misremember things, they go with what is familiar, and sooner or later, they’ll be telling the same story that corresponds not at all with what was being told. Hell, I experience it daily whenever my mother picks up the phone to tell my sister things: she’ll often claim to have said something she hasn’t, done something she hasn’t. She is neither senile nor lying. That’s just how the mind works. It fills the gaps. It’s pure psychology.
I’d be more inclined to believe if someone was able to accurately describe what happened and it resonated with filmed evidence (without the person ever watching the film and having no way of knowing what happened excepting by leaving the body). At least I know recording devices don’t have gaps in their memory, neither are passive of suggestion. If someone was able to describe a scene, accurately, and it was the same as recorded, then I might begin to believe something fishy was going on.
And I’d be thrilled, because I’ve no wish to vanish into nothingness. But I’m not inclined to believe “powerful stories”, either, merely because they are powerful and someone says so.
@trj
“So please, provide us with something that is unexplainable and verifiable. Right now, you’re just waisting our time throwing links to us that don’t even support your own argument – ie. that NDEs prove an afterlife.”
Is this is why it’s just a waste of time trying to argue with the likes of Vinny. No matter what you say he will just ignore it and then carry on saying the same things. The only point there can be is showing to other readers just how ridiculous his arguments really are.
He has been a bit of a broken record, hasn’t he? What is that? Argumentum ad nauseum?
We can go backwards and forwards for ever as there is no answer for or against. Cannot aruge with brainwashed religion as whatever the bible says must be true. Get a life, now as this is your only one.
Vinny can prove his case once and for all, and that would be to prove there is a god, prove there is an afterlife. Moses and others said they were spoken to or saw visions, we only have their word for it. They would be making a lot of money on Amazon now . Life after death is only a money spinning idea.
He has a very typical stance/opinion about atheists. To say we are “worried” about this evidence is not only ridiculous, it undermines the heart of atheism; truth. To be “worried” implies that my interests in being correct supersede my interests in knowing the truth, which couldn’t be farther from the truth.
If there is in fact evidence supporting the existence of God, I am all for it and will listen intently.
Actually, if god was proven to exist, doesn’t mean that a) she or he cares, or b) he or she is benign.
Vinny, you obviously think near-death.com constitutes a reliable source for NDE.
So I suppose you agree to the existence of all these phenomena: telepathy, remote viewing, astrology, reincarnation, psychokinesis, prophetic powers, time travel, and alien abduction. After all, according to that site, they all constitute evidence for NDE. They’ve got references and everything. And most of these phenomena are backed up by thousands of eyewitnesses.
I had an out of body experience during bunion surgery, while I was under “twilight sleep” sedation. After much thought, I’ve concluded that I just had a very vivid dream and that it would be easy enough for me to imagine hovering over my body while the Doctor looked at a x-ray of my foot on a nearby lightbox and hemostats hanging out of my foot. I did actually heard remarks that were made in the OR and proved this later, so be careful what you say around someone, even if they’re asleep.
Anyway, I’ve spoken to others who had similar experiences and for them it constituted some sort of proof of a soul or the paranormal. I guess drug toxicity just isn’t as glamorous.
From: http://www.pr.com/press-release/210247
Dr. Jeffrey Long’s Says Near-Death Experience Research a “Game Changer” for Science, New Skeptiko Interview
The most comprehensive research into near-death experience deals a kill shot to skeptics and aims to change how science views the afterlife.
Del Mar, CA, February 05, 2010 –(PR.com)– Science has studied the near-death experience for more than 20 years. Most research has concluded NDEs are real and unexplainable, but scientists have been slow to accept consciousness beyond death. A new scientific study by Jeffrey Long, M. D. may change that. The research compiled in his new book, Evidence of the Afterlife, represents the largest, most comprehensive study of near-death experience and according to the study’s author is, “a real game-changer.”
In a new Skepitko interview Dr. Long explains, “we looked at nine lines of evidence that indicate the reality of near-death experiences and their consistent message of an afterlife. With each of these lines of evidence we carefully reviewed all prior scholarly research on the subject and made our contributions with our original research… from my point of view, the scientific term is compelling, but you can put it another way — the nine lines of evidence that I present is proof of the reality of near-death experiences.”
The conclusions of Dr. Long’s research are paradigm smashing for near-death experience skeptics who’ve argued that limited brain functioning may explain NDEs. “What near-death experiencers see correlates to their time of cardiac arrest and it is almost uniformly accurate in every detail. That pretty much refutes the possibility that these could be illusionary fragments, or unreal memories associated with hypoxia, chemicals, REM intrusion, anything that could cause brain dysfunction,” Dr. Long stated.
“I looked at over 280 near-death experiences that had out-of-body observations of Earthly ongoing events… If near-death experiences were just fragments of memory, unrealistic remembrances of a time approaching unconsciousness or returning from unconsciousness, there is no chance that the observations would have a high percent of completely accurate observations. They’d be dream-like or hallucinations. But 98% of them were entirely realistic… In fact, these observations of Earthly ongoing events often include observations of things that would be impossible for them to be aware of with any sensory function from their physical body. For example, they can see the tops of buildings. They can see far away. In my study over 60 of these near-death experiencers later went back and independently attempted to verify what they saw in the out-of-body state. Every single one of these over 60 near-death experiencers that reported checking or verifying their own observations found that they were absolutely correct in every detail,” Dr. Long said.
While some near-death experience researchers have been reluctant to make the leap from NDEs to proof of the afterlife, Dr. Long is convinced by his research findings, “I’ve gone over every skeptic argument I can get my hands on. At the end of the day, I have no doubt in my mind near-death experience is for real. It’s a profound and reassuring message that we all have an afterlife. Every single one of us. And it’s wonderful. It is probably the greatest thrill of my life to be able to carry forward that important message to the world. I wouldn’t do it if I weren’t absolutely convinced that it’s correct.”
The conclusions of this research will be controversial, but Dr. Long stands ready to take on the critics, “I would be delighted to debate any near-death experience skeptic, any time, any place, on any media, as long as they’re scholarly, well informed, and as long as it can be a very high-level, intellectual debate.”
The complete Skeptiko interview (audio and transcript) with Dr. Jeffrey Long is available at: http://www.skeptiko.com/94-jeffrey-long-near-death-experience-research/
Jeffrey Long, M.D., is a physician practicing the specialty of radiation oncology (use of radiation to treat cancer) in Houma, Louisiana. Dr. Long has served on the Board of Directors of IANDS (International Association for Near-Death Studies), and is actively involved in NDE research. His book, Evidence of the Afterlife (HarperCollins), was published in 2010.
About Skeptiko
Skeptiko.com is the first scientifically oriented Podcast exploring new research in controversial areas of science such as telepathy, psi, parapsychology, near-death-experience, psychic detectives, medium communication, reincarnation, and after-life encounters. Each episode features open, honest debate on new scientific discoveries. The show includes interviews with top research scientists and their critics.
Such a proof would be an earth shattering event, and one of the most important scientific discoveries in human history. Literally every scientist would be discussing it.
*Listens to crickets chirping*
Huh.