Whenever I think of NOFX I think of the day I destroyed a CD of theirs after I became a Christian. It was a big step for me, turning my back on those filthy punk sinners, and replace them with “Christian” punk rock like MxPx.
Anyway, NOFX has a long history of blasphemy, and they have a song about it on their latest record, Coaster:
Yeah, pretty crazy. Here’s the lyrics:
I’ll throw a pie in the face of piety
I’ll torch a torah right off a bridge
I am a reverend of irreverence
I’m a shill for any sacrilege
I understand that faith in a deity
Helps the masses who are having hard times
But blasphemy like prostitution
Are clearly victimless crimesBlasphemy, blasphe-you, Jesus Christ the blackest Jew
Blasphe-you, blasphemy, poisonous pedagogyI’m an unbeliever, I’m a heretic
I’m gonna projectile puke off a pew
I’m a trouble making immature imp
I’m gonna turn your other cheek for you
I understand we all need something to believe in
I believe I’ll never be given wings and
I’m sorry if it’s up there cuz I didn’t think
A song was gonna hurt its feelingsBlasphemy, speaking deadpan
Apparently this god has got a master plan
Now they call foul, pure heresy
But ya gotta wonder, does he have a plan B?Horus similar to Mithra, Attis analogous to Krishna
Jesus, different name same story
All based on ancient Egyptian allegoryMy position hasn’t been occulted
It can never be more overstated
My intelligence has been insulted
So my tongue lashes out in defense
Anything that is your holy or sacred
I’m gonna desecrate and use in jest
But you’ll never hear a crack about Mohammed
Cuz I don’t wanna get shot in the chestBlasphemy, isn’t this fun
Rob a rabbi, bugger a nun
Blasphemy, want some more?
Mother Mary, the virgin whore
Hey, don’t be dissin’ MXPX. They have some good songs.
It reminds me of the blasphemy motivational poster. It kind of reminds me of the idea of doing things like walking under ladders just to piss off superstitious people. I like it.
Love that song! My favorite line has always been “Blasphemy, blasphe-you, Jesus Christ the blackest Jew”. There is another great song dealing with the topic of religion on the cd though called Best God in Show.
Lyrics:
I have no consideration
Zero mutual respect
For billions who suffer from rational thought neglect
I don’t wanna waste a sentence
I don’t want a conversation
That’s gonna end in disdain disbelief and aggravation
And I find it’s getting harder to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
In Santa Clause and Noah’s Ark, and Their god is the best
My distaste has turned into detest
Who would read a 2000-year-old medical journal?
Techniques for blood-letting
Advice on trichinosis
Would you navigate the globe
With a map of a flat Earth?
Without DNA testing would you believe virgin birth?
And I find it’s getting painful to put up
With grown adults who actually believe
In unicorns and creation and god always takes their side
That’s when my innocent jabbing turns snide
Thank god for the Grammy
Thank god for the touchdown
Thank god for blowing up the enemy’s sacred ground
So how am I supposed to take anything you say seriously
When you swap free will for faith, hope and pre-destiny?
And it’s getting agonizing to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
Mythology and history trump physics and science
My aversion has turned to aberrance
“I’m gonna turn your other cheek for you”
Awesome! =)
That was awesome. Thanks for sharing. I quite enjoyed that. Gotta get those lyrics posted on the fridge or something.
Do it with a magnetic refrigerator poetry kit, and you will have my unconditional respect for at least a week.
How on earth can there be such a thing as “Christian punk rock?” Punk rock is (or, rather, was) an attitude more than anything else – beyond simple anti-authoritarianism and all the way to full-fledged nihilism with a healthy dose of get-rich-quick-ism.
Off Topic:
Congratulations Daniel: https://analytics.postrank.com/2009/topic/Atheism Right behind the squiddy one!
Not wishing to piss on someone’s matches so to speak but squid man seems to have more points than everyone else put together … must be the devil’s work!
Check this vid. Also from NOFX but WAY better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI0fAmF-Bw8
I have no consideration
Zero mutual respect
For billions who suffer from rational thought neglect
I don’t wanna waste a sentence
I don’t want a conversation
That’s gonna end in disdain disbelief and aggravation
And I find it’s getting harder to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
In Santa Clause and Noah’s Ark, and Their god is the best
My distaste has turned into detest
Who would read a 2000-year-old medical journal?
Techniques for blood-letting
Advice on trichinosis
Would you navigate the globe
With a map of a flat Earth?
Without DNA testing would you believe virgin birth?
And I find it’s getting painful to put up
With grown adults who actually believe
In unicorns and creation and god always takes their side
That’s when my innocent jabbing turns snide
Thank god for the Grammy
Thank god for the touchdown
Thank god for blowing up the enemy’s sacred ground
So how am I supposed to take anything you say seriously
When you swap free will for faith, hope and predestiny?
And it’s getting agonizing to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
Mythology and history trump physics and science
My aversion has turned to abhorrence
Now that’s more like it.
Reggae is the only religious music I listen to.
Hmmm,
Prostitution is a victimless crime?? This singer really needs to wash his brains out and think of the millions of teenage girls who are trafficked around the world to work in brothels.
So your point is that human trafficking is a crime with victims? Slavery is? Forcing someone to do something against their will?
I doubt many will argue.
But those things are not the definition of prostitution. Prostitution is exchanging something of value for sex. If done between consenting adults, who is the victim?
Y’know, it’s interesting: over here, prostitution is not a crime…
… but coercing someone into prostitution, prostituting a minor, human trafficking, having a brothel, and similar, are. I can sell my body out of my own free will, but I cannot coerce anyone into doing so, facilitate, or otherwise encourage people to prostitute themselves.
Yarp.
When people talk about the victims of prostitution, they generally are talking about victims of other crimes who are ALSO prostitutes.
That kind of law is too sensible for the US. We like our laws themselves to do the victimizing.
In Britain, having a brothel is not a crime, but soliciting is – so if people come to your place and you mutually consent to paid sex, that’s not currently illegal – but if you stand on a street corner flashing leg at passing motorists, that is.
LOL,
If someone says prostitution and you immediately think “Teen-age Girl”, He’s not the only one that needs brain washing.
If somebody says “prostitution” and you immediately jump to “teen girl”, I’d say you’re repressing some dark desires and need to get to therapy ASAP!
Oh hai, you must be new here.
I think that prostitution was a poor example of a victimless “crime”. He should have used “lightin’ up a mary-jane”.
Ty,
the problem is that the “consent” on the part of the prostitute is often very dodgy. If consent requires total freedom, then many of these prostitutes do not qualify as having given their total consent. Certainly the trafficked ones haven’t, but even the “volunteer” prostitutes enter prostitution because of economic reasons. Put it this way, a rich woman will not have prostitution on her list of top choices.
Sunny-Day,
Do you not read the news?
Well, I doubt anyone is saying prostitution is a good thing, or palatable. Of course not. But a crime? Really?
Then again, besides knowing one such a woman – had a good, stable, economically sound life – who went into prostitution by choice, and knowing she isn’t the only one…
TheChristian, you could make the same argument for people forced into farm labor, or the people forced into dangerous low pay construction work.
Millions of people around the world get the shaft. For some of them, they get it by having to endure grueling work with broken backs. Others get the shaft while others do the work while they are on their back.
Either way, the issue is combating poverty, not combating a job that you think is immoral.
That argument works for employment at McDonalds. You won’t find anyone working at fast food who has economic choices in life.
The fact remains, the list of things you used to demonstrate a victim are other crimes. Holding someone against their will is a crime. Human trafficking is a crime. Prostitution does not require those things, and not having them removes the victim part of the equation.
Sorry I must not be as ‘educated” about teen-age prostitution as you are. Please tell us about your experiences with them.
I work at a porn company. Trust me when I say that poverty isn’t the only reason people get into “prostitution.” I’ve met plenty of porn stars, male and female, who got into it just for the money. They had nice homes, grew up in a great family atmosphere and still have great family atmospheres. Their line of work just flat out pays well.
NOFX has the best album titles: Punk in Drublic, Pump Up the Valium, I Heard They Suck LIVE…
Unfortunately the music (even by low, low punk rock standards) is pretty meh.
Siberia,
I can’t comment on that particular woman you met, but from all the reports on prostitution (and editorials written by prostitutes) that I have read, all the prostitutes tend to make their “choices” based on economic pressures and later rationalize these pressures away in the same manner you have described.
Anyway, given that this is an atheist blog, and the people here are comparing prostitution with blasphemy, and it seems to be the case that the people on this thread at least think that blasphemy is a good thing…
Revyloution,
I would make the same argument for those forced into farm-labour; that they are victims of circumstance.
Well, poverty is immoral. *shrugs*
Anyhow, prostitution is immoral because the client is exploiting the prostitute. It is different from other sex-relationships, where it could be at least assumed that both partners are on equal footing, and choose some form of sexual action that both agree to. (As much as I think that BDSM is immoral, I would nonetheless say that the action of agreeing to do it is not immoral.) The Prostitute is basically surrendering herself to the whims of her client.
So honestly, I would put Prostitution is commercial rape. And rape is a crime, no? Is rape “consensual”?
The difference between farm labour, McDonalds’ labour and construction work, and Prostitution, is that the former three are only expolitative by virtue of pay, a situation which can be remedied by some form of wage-law or such. Whereas, Prostitution, even if it is highly-paid-for, is exploitative by the nature of the job. Just think about it: would you enjoy a job of standing by the roadside naked, and offering yourself up to be molested over and over again?
Ty,
Prostitution is implicitly holding someone (The Prostitute) against their will.
“Prostitution is implicitly holding someone (The Prostitute) against their will.”
I know you love to make assertions without support, but this one is particularly stupid. Do you have any evidence of this blanket statement you are making?
Even though the show itself is horrible, Cat House on HBO is quite informative. Woman move from all over the country, at their own expense and of their own free will, to work in the Bunny Ranch in Nevada. They do this because the work is legal, and they will make a six figure income. Please demonstrate that they are being implicitly held against their will?
Seriously, I’ve been around this place for a while. I’ve seen a ton of faith-heads like you come and go. But you are almost unique in your ability to fling unsupportable assertions around, then demand that people treat them as revealed truth. Almost unique, because John C still shows up now and then.
Viewing sex ax exploitative is itself problematic. Furthermore, considering prostitution to be unique to women is entrenching sexist stereotypes.
Really, I fail to see how prostitution is any more an exploitative “relationship” than waiting at a restaurant. You are paying the waiter or waitress with tips and salary (indirectly, by paying for the food) so that he or she will work for you. In many cases, such as in fast food restaurants, these people do not like their jobs, but find them opportunities of last resort.
Prostitution is very similar, except that the service is different. The problem is that Christianity fetishizes sex to the point that it views it as a unique phenomenon that requires an entirely different set of rules than all other behavior. This leads to all kinds of problems, sexism and anti-sex ed being just the beginning.
Read “Ain’t Nobody’s Business If You Do.” I found it very helpful in thinking about these things. Even if you don’t agree with them, it doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be free to do what they want. Of course those who enslave others should be locked away.
To be entirely honest, I don’t think she’s a good example, either; she found her husband in bed with another man. She turned to prostitution out of bitterness and remained there for the rest of her life, catering to the rich and the powerful, since she had a college education and a good breeding, as to speak.
Indeed. But as other people said, this is a question of poverty, not of prostitution itself. The act, I don’t think, is a crime; the fact other people are forced into it reveals a far deeper problem than “it should be illegal”. I don’t think prostitution is any worse than, as other people say, being exploited in backbreaking jobs and farm work.
Depends on what kind of ‘molesting’… if I could establish rules and conduct (such as protection obligatory, these things I’ll do, these I won’t), and choose who I’ll cater to, then I wouldn’t mind it at all. Hell, getting paid for something I like to do…?
I agree that the reason women turn to prostitution is largely economic. But I think there are other factors too. First of all, many women are coerced or actually forced into it. The ones who do it “willingly”, well, I would have to assume that these women lack a sense of their worth as human beings. You don’t cheapen the act of sex by having it with men you don’t want to be with (this is the nature of the job – it’s not the Brad Pitts who are usually the clients) if you are a self-respecting human being with confidence in the future and your own ability to take care of yourself. I think psychologically this is terribly damaging – you lose your “soul” in the sense that you would have to numb yourself over and over again. This is the opposite of healthy growth, where we work toward being more self-aware and being present in the moment.
@ Siberia – With regard to making “rules” for your clients, good luck with that. Who is stronger, the prostitute or the john? Who has the economic advantage? In other words, who is in the power position? This is hardly an equal playing field. If the guy doesn’t want to use a condom, he won’t and there isn’t much she can do about it in many cases. If he gets off on tossing you around the room, same deal. And you would not likely enjoy a series of meaningless oppressive sex acts with guys who look and talk like Rush Limbaugh. Yeech.
In areas where prostitution is legal (say, the Bunny Ranch in Nevada) the objections you are raising here are not true. The woman is absolutely in a power position, condoms are required by law, and physical abuse would get the john beaten up by the bouncers and then jailed for assault.
In fact, most of your objections are actually the result of the fact that prostitution is illegal. It removes the protection of the police and other authorities from prostitutes. Legalizing prostitution actually dramatically improves the standard of living for men and women who choose that profession.
“The ones who do it “willingly”, well, I would have to assume that these women lack a sense of their worth as human beings. You don’t cheapen the act of sex by having it with men you don’t want to be with”
This is YOUR view of sex. It is entirely subjective. I know personally a number of women who would not share your view, and do not consider themselves soulless husks.
The danger here is in taking personal feelings regarding the topic (which are totally valid when applied to you) and attempting to make generalizations for everyone else.
There are women who are quite happy working as legal prostitutes in Nevada and who make enough money to make it totally worth their while. The fact that you would not do the same in their situation does not mean they have failed in some way.
First of all, I would like to say that I do support legalization of prostitution for the reasons you refered to. And I agree that you raise some great arguments – that my view is subjective/emotional, difficult to quantify in any empirical way so how can you prove it?
I copied and pasted the following quote from this site:
http://www.psu.edu/courses/wmnst/wmnst001_atd1/Prostitution/lesley.html
It sounds like there are stats that can back up the fact that prostitution often has negative consequences. Of course, this is a US study and may serve to partially back up your argument that it is the laws against it that make it so dangerous.
[start quote] Violence is one of the major problems for women and prostitutes. Figures vary, one report citing that 60% of the abuse against street prostitutes perpetrated by clients, 20% by police, and 20% in domestic relationships. Some prostitutes are raped betweeb 8 and 10 times a year or more. The percentage that seek help is very low.
A survey done of 130 people working as prostitutes in San Francisco yielded these astonishing results:
57% reported that they had been sexually assaulted as children
49% reported that they had been physically assaulted as children
So does prostitution result because of childhood experiences?
Adults in prostitution reported:
82% had been physically assaulted
83% had been threatened with a weapon
68% had been raped while working as prostitutes
Prositution leads to post traumatic stress disorder, HIV, AIDS, and much more
Here are some links to explore that will tell you a little more about prostitution and get you familiar with the experiences of others:
Prostitutes’ Education Network:
http://www.bayswan.org/pehttp://net.html.
http://www.sirius.com/~promise/
This is a non-profit organization offering support services and support to women who have chosen to get out of prostitution.
http://www.aidslaw.ca/elements/prostiralfE.html
National Task Force on Prositution:
http://www.bayswan.org/NTFP.html
http://www.feminista.com/v1n5/depasquale.html
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/catw/survtest.html
These links are a great way to learn more about the facts about prostitution and to read about some real life stories.
Here is another interesting article:
http://economics.uchicago.edu/pdf/Prostitution%205.pdf
And here’s a great argument for legalization of prostitution:
http://liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html
Ty – back to me now!!
Although I support legalization, I do not think that it will magically remove the problems like refusal to use condoms, violence, etc. I suspect that if prostitutes in, say, Amsterdam were interviewed, and were honest, it’s still a high-risk job that, at the very least, would negatively impact their ability to have a healthy sexual relationship with a partner. But as you say, until I see a study that’s just my opinion.
Who, pray tell, are you to judge them like this? Who are you to assume anything about their self-worth? That is no worse than the religious person who say homosexuals are depraved, you know. You’re making a gigantic assumption about people you don’t even know.
And only because you think sex with random strangers is somehow cheap, doesn’t mean everyone else does to.
More assumptions, I see. Also, don’t be shallow. There’s more to people than their bodies and their looks.
I have to numb myself over and over again whenever I have to do boring menial work, too. That can be psychologically damaging, too. Sometimes even physically, for those who work in heavy labour.
Personally, I’d rather sell my body than abuse my mind with meaningless drivel.
What Ty said. I know there is no such provision, which is why I’m not selling my body for money (that, and I doubt anyone would want to buy).
You know, I actually considered whether I’d rather work a McDonald’s grill for 8 hours to earn $64 bucks, or get that same money by having sex with an unattractive stranger for 15 minutes if I felt the risk of disease and divorce were very low.
I honestly am not sure.
As much as I think that BDSM is immoral….
Why?
Because he likes to make baseless assertions, because he’s never tried it and because he doesn’t understand what it is.
BDSM is about trusting another individual absolutely and completely, it’s about giving that person total control over you (or being trusted enough to accept total control over another person, of course). It’s also ALWAYS between consenting adults – otherwise it just becomes torture and rape, and that’s not what it’s about at all.
Typical vanilla goody-goody attitude – judge on appearances with no real knowledge.
“Blasphemy, blasphe-you”
I never cared much for NOFX but it’s nice to see they’re Eddie Izzard fans.
I’m stunned. I understood every word! This singer must set up an enunciation academy, stat.
Maybe this concept could be marketed to hip-hop artists. Can’t understand a damn word they say. Ahhh, maybe it’s just as well…..
Ty,
(1) That’s because you refuse to read my support, and then imagine that I provide none.
(2) I don’t know about Bunny Ranch – sorry, I am not American (how many times do I need to say that?) – but I wonder … what is the opening of “Cat House” – about a posh girl from a rich family who decided to experiment with prostitution? Or about a poor college girl looking for some money to pay off her loan because she can’t support her family?
(3) Like I said, you ignore my support, and then pretend that I “fling assertions around”.
Michael,
(1) I am not viewing sex itself as exploitative. I am viewing commercial sex as inherently exploitative, because it treats a person as a sex object. Basically, the prostitute (male or female) is being treated as a collection of sex toys. And I thought that Male Prostitutes are called “escorts”, but maybe I was wrong.
(2) But in the case of the restaurant, you are not paying for the waiter’s body. That is the difference.
(3) I think that you do not understand what a fetish is. Anyway, sex is different from other activities because it directly involves the human body; it is a relationship between two people. Prostitution cheapens that relationship, and in the case of a brothel, removes it, since the pimp has no personal relationship with the Prostitute.
Siberia,
(1) Okay, as you said.
(2) But that makes these women victims. And that is the point being argued here. I make a separate argument for why Prostitution should be a crime, where I am mostly referring to brothels and agencies (if there are any). And incidentally, I do agree that Clients to Prostitutes should be charged with statuory rape more then teens having sex should be.
(3) And with all that in place, you would really like to do that?
“Like I said, you ignore my support, and then pretend that I “fling assertions around”.”
Wrong.
You most often do not provide support for your wild assertions, and when you do, it doesn’t actually support anything you are saying.
I think you believe yourself to be far more learned that you actually are.
Victims of poverty and of lousy working conditions, no different than farm workers in third world countries worldwide. I agree it’s horrible, and that those people are victims, but prostitution is not issue, in and of itself. The circumstances that drove them to it in the first place, and the hazards of it, are.
Why not?
Ty,
(2) That’s because you don’t know philosophy.
I do know irony, and you make me laugh.
On the plus side, this is making me nostalgic for the philosophy arguments Elemenope and I had when he first showed up. Nope, I feel extra bad now for how unwelcoming I was to you at the very beginning. We may have had some early disagreements on things, but Holy Cthulu, at least you were ALWAYS cogent and logical in presenting your position. It’s making me nostalgic.
So nostalgic I said it twice!
Throw out a topic for analysis and we can throw down right now! :)
Sorry, can’t. Been informed by an expert that I don’t know philosophy. :)
Maybe we can argue about football?
I definitely lack the capacity to argue about football. Mostly when I’m at work I just fake it by saying “uh-huh!” at seemingly appropriate moments when people are talking about it.
My office (if a couch and a laptop can be called an office) is filled with football discussion. In fact, I think one of the things qualifying me to hold this job is my ability to intelligently discuss football with my boss.
Maybe I could help you out with a suggestion for a topic. How about…beer?
“I do know irony”…ha ha good one
“I do know irony” ha ha good one
Siberia,
(1) Good that we can at least agree on something.
(2) You would, then? You wouldn’t feel at least moderately uncomfortable?
Ex-Rev Ty,
If you think that you are good at philosophy, go on, give me a line-by-line analysis of Euthrypho. I am waiting…
If someone were to indulge your patronizing request, they might start by spelling Euthyphro correctly.
Also, if you knew what you were talking about, you’d never demand a “line-by-line” analysis of any of the early Platonics. They’re simple enough, perhaps with the Euthyphro being the most straightforward. Challenges of this sort mean that either you’re pedantic beyond belief of simply unfamiliar with the relevant pedagogical methods associated with the work.
Elemenope,
(1) Alright, I apologize for the typo.
(2) Well, apparently then, you seem to know much more about Euthyphro than I do. And since you are the great philosopher (as Ty says), perhaps you would care to enlighten me what the “straightforward” meaning of Euthyphro is, and what the “pedagogical methods” are. My dear friend, I am your humble student for the rest of this dialogue; I only hope that you will indulge my one whim: wishing to question where I don’t comprehend you. (After all, as you have stated, I am “pedantic beyond belief”.)
Let me save Nope some time:
The pedagogical method he is referring to is the Socratic Method. Duh.
Also, on the Euthyphro:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-shorter/#13
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-morality/#AncGre
(You may be a 21 year old student of philosophy, but I am a 35 year old with a degree in it.)
LRA,
Cool! Since you are so experienced in ancient Greek philosophy, I would like to ask you what the Socratic Method is. What I am really interested in knowing is if the Socratic Method involves the Questioner revealing his or her own assumptions to the person answering the questions?
If you were asking these questions in good faith instead of being a sarcastic ass fishing for minutiae to pounce on, I’m sure we’d all be more willing to engage.
I am being sincere. If you think that I am being sarcastic, kindly point out where in my post I am being sarcastic. I am, in fact, quite excited, that I have actually found a real philosopher on atheist forums. (Dawkins participating on his own forums doesn’t count.) And someone who knows platonic philosophy to boot!
If you think that I am being sarcastic, kindly point out where in my post I am being sarcastic.
Hmm.
“My dear friend, I am your humble student for the rest of this dialogue; I only hope that you will indulge my one whim: wishing to question where I don’t comprehend you.”
“Cool! Since you are so experienced in ancient Greek philosophy, I would like to ask you what the Socratic Method is. What I am really interested in knowing is if the Socratic Method involves the Questioner revealing his or her own assumptions to the person answering the questions?”
Unless you are in the habit of talking like you live in an Errol Flynn movie, “my dear friend” is sarcastic when said to anyone who is anything but. You have not been humble throughout any of your interactions thus far, which leads one to believe that “humble student” is sarcastic too. Your request to “indulge your one whim” really can’t be taken any other way either, especially since it isn’t a “whim” at all but very much intentional. Since you claim to be educated in the Platonic dialogues, you would already know what the Socratic Method is, and so your question to LRA was either patronizing or sarcastic or both. The “so” at the beginning really signposts it, in case anyone else was confused.
“Unless you are in the habit of talking like you live in an Errol Flynn movie”
Ha!
Nope, you rule.
This asshat is a waste of time, though.
The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is an excellent resource for all things philosophical. The Socratic Method (also called the elenchus) can be read about here:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-shorter/#2
Christians are so self righteous. Sigh.