Michael Shermer explains why God isn’t a good source for moral guidance:
- Euthyphro’s dilemma: ”There exists a dilemma over whether God embraces moral principles naturally occurring and external to Him because they are sound (“holy”) or that these moral principles are sound because He created them. It cannot be both.”
- Silence: “Cloning, stem cell research, and genetic engineering, for example, are not discussed in the Bible, so what are believers to believe about these very real moral issues? One must either attempt to infer from ancient biblical writings something that is loosely related to the modern moral issue, or one must think it through independently.”
- No longer applicable: “We need a new set of morals, and an ethical system designed for our time and place, not one scripted for a pastoral/agricultural people who lived 4,000 years ago. The Bible and other sacred texts have much to offer, but we can do better.”
Read the whole thing.
I love god’s response to Job when job questions him: “Do you criticize my justice? Do you declare me wrong and yourself right? Do you have an arm as strong as God’s and a voice as thunderous?” Why yes, god, I’m calling you an unjust asshole. Just because you’re all powerful doesn’t mean you’re right; might does not make right. You should know all about it, though, being all-powerful while still being wrong.
I think the best reason not to ask God for moral guidance is that He doesn’t even exist.
o YES HE DOES EXIST…. and there is nothing wrong with asking god for help……but in prayer… he is the almighty, he can do anything…..and he loves u.. and I don’t know who u r, but ill be praying for u and may god bless u and show u that he does care…..Jesus is so alive… and one day he will be coming back…when you least expect it….cuase he is listening and watching….
And Jesus said, “You will know my followers by simply glancing at their comments, for they shall use Many Dots and make crazy claims without providing any evidence.”
TESTIFY!
I read “becky’s” comments in Gollum/Smeagol’s voice, kind of like that internal debate in “The Two Towers.” The (over)use of ellipses provides stage directions for transitions between Gollum/Smeagol.
Proof!
“Jesus is so alive…” – He’s a big fan of Love and Rockets!
“and one day he will be coming back…” – just like Arnold Schwarzenegger!
“when you least expect it….” – Like the Spanish Inquisition!
“cuase he is listening and watching….” – Especially in the shower and when you masturbate, well mostly just when you masturbate.
Jesus: The Divine Peeping Tom.
I see that most of Shermer’s response makes the common cultural assumption that “asking God for moral guidance” means “a Christian consulting the Bible for moral guidance.”
Hmmm, but Shermer’s writing for his audience. Most of them live in countries dominated by Christianity; it seems pretty obvious that he’d use that as his baseline.
Having questioned Christian family and friends hundreds of times on Euthyphro’s dilemma, not once have I been able to get them to answer let alone engage me with this question. Everyone changes the subject or has to leave.
I’m surprised you have Christian family and friends who’ve even heard of Euthyphro.
I imagine they’ve heard of it because of Shad’s insistent questioning.
Why is the dilemma a problem?
Maybe I’m just dumb, but I don’t see an issue.
The issue is this: if a deity, like the Christian one, claims to have authored morality, then it is literally implied that morality (lit., what is defined as good) is wholly dependent upon the will of God. However, since God created good, he could not have used good to decide what is good, hence what he decided is the very definition of arbitrary. If it is arbitrary, why assign it value, much less follow it?
interesting. i think there are workable solutions to this, but interesting.
Reginald,
That was my take. Why not start with the most obvious first, that we’re being told to ask a non-existent mythical creation about morality. It seems ridiculous from the outset. I’m sure his reasoning was that questioning the details is less objectionable than questioning the faith’s entire basis.
“Morality” is not part of the True Offer in Christ. The spirit led life is free from the nagging quandry of right & wrong, good & evil, etc, is “above” that lower realm. Hence, Paul says “walk in the spirit and you wont carry out the desires of the lower nature” (because its impossible to do both right and wrong at the same time). So in a sense, the author is correct, the Bible is not about “morality” at all. Instead, it points to a whole different dimension in the realm of spirit that we can dwell in via faith, love and obediance to the Truth (Himself).
Few there be that find this Way though it remains readily available to ALL.
woooooooooo…
Yea, He loves woooooooooo…too Roger! :)
“the Bible is not about “morality” at all.”
That explains a lot.
Yeah, like the entire Old Testament….
It’s about morality just not the type of morality that is easy to understand with an “all loving” god, well unless you use the cop out of god is all loving therefore all his actions are by definition loving …
Yeah, if Soodom and Gomorha had actually been destroyed by god, they’d have been feeling the love alright!
You know what it reminds me of? When I have patients who have very obviously been beaten by their husbands and they say “He only does it because he loves me”. Uhu – loves you all the way to your grave. Christians as abused spouses… I like that paradigm.
I’m confused, are you supposed to turn the other cheek or slaughter everyone?
Only if it’s raining, or on the second Thursday.
@Elemen
I was thinking that god would just flip a coin to deceide what to do, then I realised he would already know whether it was going to be heads or tails. In addition my understanding (taken from Judges or Acts, I can never remember) was that god was a bit of a skin flint anyway and would probably want to “borrow” a coin from you in the first place …
But don’t worry! He repays you when you die…
“I was thinking that god would just flip a coin to decide what to do, then I realised he would already know whether it was going to be heads or tails”
Maybe if it were a quantic coin he wouldn’t know :-p
One must either attempt to infer from ancient biblical writings something that is loosely related to the modern moral issue, or one must think it through independently
And the trick is that any attempt to infer solutions to modern problems from ancient biblical writings is in fact thinking it through independently and then going into the Bible post-facto to find a Biblical justification for the belief that you already hold. Since the Bible contains so many contradictions, you can find a Biblical justification for anything. One historical example that is easy to understand in retrospect is slavery. Slaveholders and abolitionists both used the Bible to justify their beliefs and – surprise – both found Biblical citations that could be used to condemn their opponents and support their personal beliefs. Christians now think that slavery is wrong not because those verses were struck from the canon, but because the post-Enlightenment value system that inevitably led to the conclusion that “all men are created equal” won out over the traditionalists.
yaw r just horrible….