by Custador
This is off-topic for a blog which is primarily a place of theological discussion, but I felt it might be an interesting topic to discuss. I have some experience of working with military people, I have a lot of military friends.I have admired almost all of them as good, honest people — so my heart sank considerably when I read this paragraph:
“In 2003, in a survey of female veterans conducted by the University of Iowa, funded by the US Department of Defense, 30% of the 500 female veterans interviewed reported an attempted or completed rape.”
The full story is available on the BBC website for those who wish to read it, and I recommend that you do.
This issue should be causing a massive public outcry — and yet this is the first time I’ve ever heard anything about it. Of course, this is a story about the US military and I’m in the UK; I’m not going to comment one way or the other about whether I think the situation crosses over between armies — because I simply don’t know.
I know people in both sets of militaries, though, and I have no reason to view them particularly differently in terms of their characters and attitudes. What it has occured to me to wonder, though, is this: Is this being reported in US news media? Are the likes of CNN, Fox and CBS giving this issue the air-time it deserve?
I’ve encountered issues in the past where people from overseas seem to have more information than people in the country concerned (and this is not a dig at America — it happens everywhere), and have often felt uncomfortable about the news media effectively becoming the censors of what we know (or think we know). This story brought the issue to life sharply, though, because when I googled Marti Ribeiro and the issue of rape in the military, I found absolutely nothing in the mainstream media except for this short story on the BBC and some very old stories about individual cases, one on the CNN website and one on Reuters.
Am I mistaken? Is Fox News even now wheeling out Skeletor Coulter to decry these women as liars? Is CNN, “World’s Most Important Network,” sending in reporters dressed in khakis as honey-traps? Or are we really being denied information because the news media would rather take the easy option and raise hysteria about tea-baggers instead?
Clearly heterosexuals should be banned from the military because they can’t control their urges. kinda make me feel all macho that I wasn’t drafted back during ‘Nam.
Better to have their male organ tagged by implanting some sort of monitoring zapping chips.
Usually the only time that the “US military” and “rape” are mentioned in the same news report is when reporting on a single soldier trying to take their story public or go to court after being raped. Rarely do I ever hear any prolonged discussion on the major news networks describing soldiers raping other soldiers as being a somewhat common occurrence. Rarer still do I hear anybody cite studies that try to determine how often it happens.
Actually this has been fairly well-known in both military and feminist circles for a while now. Unfortunately, IMO, the media has not given this problem the attention it deserves. I think that may partially be because people just don’t want to believe it. We all want to see our men in uniform as wholesome heroes. And it may partially be because of the wide-spread attitude that women who wear short skirts or who flirt with boys at a bar are wholly or partially responsible for someone raping them; maybe a lot of people feel that the male-dominated military doesn’t have to be a safe place for women, and the women who joined up with the military and were then attacked by their own coworkers should have known better before they joined. And maybe there’s something to that– not that women shouldn’t expect to be safe from the very men who are supposed to have their back in a combat situation, but that those some of those men may still think of the military as a macho boys-only club, and they don’t feel that they have to respect their fellow soldiers if they happen to be female.
Majority of men/ marcho men won’t do it even if given opportunity.
Yeah, that’s why I said “some” men. The majority of men (in the military or otherwise) wouldn’t act that way, BUT it is significant that the occurrence of rape in the military is so high.
It is a case of concern if more and more “some men” and less and less “men” are in millitary.
Majority of men/ marcho men won’t do it even if given opportunity.
Do what, rape? I’d rather say the opposite, Vietnam should have taught us that. I’m not saying everyone want’s to do it, but that almost everyone is capable of such crime if exposed to encouraging circumstances. One can as well say, that most people would never want to kill anyone. It seems to make sense, but then you have the Milgram experiment, Stanford prison, and so on.
Most grunts don’t come from NY or DC, they’re lower middle class at best, so sexism and prejudice should be expected to be common. It’s only natural that such male-dominated (sub)culture permits objectifying women, and that’s a friendly environment for (breeding) sexual predators. And war teaches people to dehumanize others, not to be nice, that ‘helps’ too.
What sickens me most is that it clearly is in their (high command) power to stop this. IMHO if only drill sergeants shifted they priorities in brainwashing trainees, they could enforce dicipline against sexual harassment. I think they just don’t care.
They’d care if it affected the bottom line of getting the job done. I’m sure that’s exactly why they keep it quiet. If it got more publicity they might actually have to deal with it and fix the problem. We shouldn’t let them cover it up just because they don’t care or because it doesn’t affect combat (or hasn’t been proven to do so, though I’d suspect otherwise).
I was in the U. S. Air Force for about 15 years. But I saw it from a male perspective. Sure, I heard the occasional story, but had nothing to suggest the problem was at all pervasive.
Then, a few years ago, a niece of mine went into the Marines. (I hope I’m relating the story right. Obviously, it’s not something she’s keen to talk about, and what I’ve heard I’ve gotten through family members.) She was raped. Her superiors apparently didn’t buy her story. Here was a young lady who had breezed through the notorious Marine boot camp, but was so psychologically scarred by the rape and the lack of support afterward that she was given a discharge under less than honorable conditions. (Which, I believe, can be upgraded in time.)
I’m not sure what the solution is. It’s simplistic to believe we can just educate men to be other than what they are. Education might help in many cases, but it’s not all nurture. Fear of punishment will thwart some, but not all–not even if we could infallibly arrest and prosecute all the perpetrators. The “solution” society has resorted to heretofore has been to keep the sexes apart, especially in situations where the woman would be especially vulnerable. Even that doesn’t always work, and in this day and age it’s not a politically acceptable approach. (Some will even rant that I would dare to suggest that women might be especially vulnerable in some situations. They’re not being realistic.) Wherever the answer lies, it’s not in kidding ourselves that the problem doesn’t spring from very, very deep within human nature.
“I’m not sure what the solution is.”
It seems to me that given the nature and structure of the millitary, these kinds of problems should be easier to fix there than in many other places. Basically, the top down “follow orders or else” structure allows those at the highest levels to force compliance of those below them with nothing more than words. While unlikely to elimate the problem, doesn’t serious and stern treatment, orders and enforcement related to this problem significantly help decrease it?
It seems to me that if these numbers are as bad as quoted (and I have no idea if theye are but have no reason to disbelieve them), it is a systemic problem. That type of problem should be fixable by those in charge when they have absolute authority over those committing these acts. They have to want to though.
Oh, I agree that the military has a bigger stick when it comes to their troops than the government does with the public at large. And, yes, it does seem to be systematic to some degree. But, as I said, even punishment won’t completely put a stop to the problem.
I guess I was talking more about the problem of rape in general when I despaired of a solution. How do you change people such that they won’t want to do it? (And no, John C, et al, Jesus ain’t the answer.) Until we can figure that out, the problem won’t go away in the military or anywhere else.
Take away their military retirement benefits when they are found guilty? THAT would get some attention and influence behavior.
I agree to a large degree with Louise,it is and has been a reoccurring and common story about the US military for quite awhile at least since Bush the first and it got big after Tailhook scandal…and has been used at least half a dozen times as a law and order(the tv show) story line. Hate to say it but it became more common and widespread after the army and air force became intergrated including their training(boot camp),and even when rape is not involved there was a huge uptick(as in by hundreds of percentage points,as in from 5-9% to like 50% of women in uniform) in reporting sexual harassment,as well as rape though to be fair it has always existed..and used to not be even a concern nor consinederd a problem or even anything other than business as usual in the USA in every field.I would suggest though that this has as much to do with people actually reporting crimes and a different awareness of things that were not prior to modern femenism an issue except to women. Amusingly enough(not that the subject is humorous), a big reason I have heard from those opposed to gays in the military is that they expect such things to happen to straight people once gays are allowed to openly serve,and furthermore think it happens a lot now. I have even heard from a couple of fundementalists who used to serve(though I can not confirm they ever served,once they went off on this tangent I stopped talking to them) that there is a huge satan/occult gay conspiracy present in the military right now(and that kind of thinking perhaps without the religious component has been around for ever..think about most jokes you hear dealing with the navy). as an aside I can’t spell today.
I’m surprised that you’re surprised. If you could round up 500 of your women friends, who are willing to tell you the truth, you would get the same numbers.
mikespeir it depends on the how and why of the discharge last I checked….if it really is/was a rape though difficult it may even be able to be ‘expunged’ to use the civil law term…heck she may even(though I doubt she would want to) be able to be reinstated. Though both possibilities happen are not at all common or even likely overall(we all know the military does not like to admit or correct mistakes, I know first hand being a former Marine myself and having been discharged medically after the first gulf war, this type of discharge if her issues were psychological would likely be the most likely upgrade). If she had been discharged dishonorably she’d be screwed and not even really a citizen anymore.
So, in a huge group of frustrated, testosterone-high men trained for pack behaviour and used to any kind of bulling against each other, you add but a few women and they get raped.
**SHOCK, AWE & SURPRISE**
Also, the military hierarchies tolerate misbehaviour and often cover it.
Even more shock….
Guys, honestly, think about it, how could this NOT happen?
“**SHOCK, AWE & SURPRISE**”
Of a playboy millitary?
“people from overseas seem to have more information than people in the country concerned ”
This is a good argument for learning another language to round out your sources of information.
And for translating newspapers/articles into multiple languages
Je parlez un peu Francais, ich sprechen ein kleine Deutsche, rydw i’n siarad tipyn bach o Cymraeg – and I whole-heartedly agree with your sentiment.
We can only hope for more honorable soldiers. Ones that would beat these rapist to near death. They keep it up and you will be reading about a murdered soldier when one of these girls snaps, then again maybe that already happened and was covered up.
I really don’t see that happening and getting covered up. If a female snaps and kills her rapist, it’ll be all over the news that she was mentally unstable all along and probably dreamed up the whole rape bit from the beginning.
what makes you think that there AREN’T soldiers who kill rapists? because it’s not on the news?
nevermind that female soldiers are also trained to be killers …. think about the flipside of chauvinism: men feeling obligated to “watch over” or “protect” the women around them (whether fellow soldiers, friends, or both)
things happen. we don’t hear about them. if we did though, those bad seeds in the military might think twice.
I’m not sure this is something the mass media refuse to cover because they’re not interested. The Tailhook scandal sure got a lot of attention back when it happened.
The problem, I think, is that this is something that takes too much work for the media to investigate and offers them (what they perceive to be) too little benefit. The military is a relatively closed world and it’s not something the media do a very good job of penetrating. Yeah, they have their “embedded reporters,” but that’s a restricted, cooperative venture that’s managed by the military itself. Rooting out a story that soldiers and sailors may not want to tell, without the sanction of the upper echelons, is — on the other hand — much more difficult.
We have already seen a lot of the media taking “the lazy way out” of things, over the past 10 years or so. More and more of the “evening news” is actually “entertainment news,” not “investigative reporting” (and yes, I’m looking at you, Tiger). Even political reporting has collapsed into a mire of trivia and sound-bites, in which one side says one thing, the other says the opposite, and the media duly convey it as though it all actually means something … topped off with the (often erroneous) prognostications, suppositions, and guesswork that passes for “analysis” of that political news. Science reporting has become so horrifically bad that mere words cannot describe its miserable state. Crime reporting now consists of simply relaying what police and prosecutors (on the one hand) or defense attorneys (on the other) offer up at press conferences … few reporters bother any more to speak with witnesses or interrogate anyone who knows something about a crime.
In the midst of all this, no rational person can expect the media to actually investigate rape in the military … when that entails asking questions of military personnel who have little or no incentive to talk to them (except if they happen to be military spokespersons), not to mention having to understand the military culture and jargon — especially in light of the fact that whatever information they can get, may not be a “juicy” enough story (in their eyes, anyway).
My guess is a lot of newsrooms would rather not bother with all of that. It sounds too much like work. They’d rather wait for the next press-conference … held by whoever … and be spoon-fed little useless dribbles of information that they can then turn around and report on the evening news or print in the next day’s paper.
I was in the Navy from 1973-76. There was no EEO at the time. I was told by my trainer when I got to my first duty station that women had no place in the military.
I was nearly raped when I let an Army transient I’d met at the club walk me back to the barracks one night. I fought him off.
I worked in aircraft simulators and was accosted by two different instructors I worked for. Neither ended up with rape, perhaps because I hoped they wouldn’t charge me for assault because I kicked them in the balls to stop them. But they could have, and I would have been locked up in the brig for it.
My OinC at the time had playboy centerfolds as wallpaper in his office, so he would’ve been no help to me. BTW, I was married at that time. My then husband didn’t want to stir the pot as he was bucking for promotion.
As soon as my son came along I got out. I didn’t want to, I wanted to serve and work on airplanes (my passion), but the atmosphere then was to toxic that I just couldn’t.
if you can glean anything from that, so be it. If not, then I guess it’s just my story.
Am I still bitter……………….a little.
I was in the Army in 1996 when I was 18. I was raped on my 19th birthday by a fellow officer (I am female; my name usually causes people to think I’m male). When I reported it, I was told not to press charges b/c it would cause me more problems than it was worth. That my family would be dragged into it, I’d be disgraced, and it would basically cause me mental anguish.I refused initially, but upon receiving multiple death threats by the rapist and his friends, not only was I moved to a different company, but my own company commander recommended I just drop it and move on. Absolutely nothing was done, and I was told to keep it quiet. Two of my friends were also raped during the year I was enlisted, and they too, were told to drop it. It is definitely something that happens frequently and is covered up.
I’ve always said that the men who would do such a thing are far and away the exceptions to the rule. I suspect you might have a little trouble buying that, though.
Damn Tucker, it really looks like nothing has changed much in the 20 years between our service. I’m so sorry for what you’ve endured.
Women are systematically devalued during and after training in the military. Being called feminine or ‘girly/sissy’ is one of the worst insults that military people throw at each other; it’s equated with weakness. Small wonder, then, that women who are immersed in that atmosphere are treated with less than human respect.
Would the military be less effective without the loccer-room mentality? Maybe allowing gays to serve openly will take some of that edge off.
Al Franken was working to pass legislation concerning policies of some of the companies that do business with the military and those businesses’ policies in regards to rape (a contractural obligation by the female employees not to file suit). The Republicans voted the legislation down.
Thankfully, the Republicans lost that one.
The Republicans voted *against* Franken’s amendment, but they were unable to vote it *down.*
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/21/obama-franken/
Nelly and Tucker:
So sorry to hear those things happened to you. I’m appalled at the statistic in the OP but sadly, not surprised.
And some people think there is no need for feminism…
Firstly, I need to say that I am NOT trying to trivialize any of the accounts here or those of readers who have not shared. My mother was raped when she was young and she heroically defeated her demons and became a better person because of it (her words). I was in the Navy for 20 years from 1985-2005 and, to the best of my knowledge, I personally was never in contact with a rapist or rape victim in my 20 years. Again, I’m NOT trying to trivialize anyone else’s experience. Have I pre-apologized enough yet?
All that being said, I just want to try to lend some perspective to the story. This is a problem I have with almost every reported “statistic” I’ve ever come across. The sample size. At any given time, there are more than 200,000 women in the US military. In fact, in 2008 there were approximately 205,400, give or take. There are approximately 2,000,000 veteran women living. With a sample size of 500, that represents less than .25% (that’s 1/4 of one percent) of active duty military women and .025% of women veterans. Is that a statistically significant sample size? I’m not a statistician (I had to look up the spelling on that one) so I don’t know if .25% sample is typical and can accurately depict truth. Is it? Does this story even have credence?
whether or not the sample is statistically significant has more to do with sampling technique than what proportion of the population was actually sampled. You could sample 75% of a population of four, composed of three white beans and one green bean, and conclude that 100% of the population was white or that 33% of the population was green. With a large population, you can actually get a fairly representative sample as long as your sample is randomly selected. Those political polls we hear so much about every four years sample only a tiny fraction of the total population, but usually turn out to be within a few points at the most.
Rape isn’t a topic that most women are comfortable chit-chatting about. If you never flat out approached a female colleague and asked her, ‘have you been raped or had a rape attempt while serving in the military,’ chances are pretty good that she would never mention it to you. Even if you did ask that question, there’s a chance she’d say no even if she had been, if she didn’t have absolute faith in your discretion.
thank you. I couldn’t have said it better.
we’ve been taught to keep it to ourselves, after all, we are the weaker sex……:P
Sorry I’m a bit late with this, but I feel it’s a must-read piece –
Also here’s a very on-topic excerpt from another article
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As a women that serve in the military, and was rape while serving on the Gulf War. Nothing surprise me about our news networks, non of them wants the Good all US military to look bad. I have created a website call ablackrose,org, to raise awareness about rape in the military. I have send the story to CNN, Head line news, To every local news station, every Univision (spanish) station, every radio station and not one of them have answer my letters. I guess the story of thousands of women being rape in the military is not as important, as the news of the president dog taking a crap in the White House.