Mark Driscoll, who we’ve discussed before, said that Avatar is “the most demonic, satanic film I’ve ever seen.”
Driscoll helped build the popular Mars Hill Church into one of the most talked about evangelical mega-churches in the country, despite its home at the heart of a secular stronghold. That distinction, combined with his church’s culturally savvy but socially and theologically conservative views, gives him significant weight in religious debate.
Or at least, significant attention.
Though his “Avatar” comments made up just a fraction of the Feb. 14 sermon, Driscoll managed to condemn the film in both religious and nonreligious terms. He denounced its “demonic paganism,” but also a message that “primitive is good and advanced is bad.” He resented its portrayal of a “false Jesus” and a “false heaven,” but also the idea of “connecting, literally, with trees and animals and beasts and birds.”
His main objection appears to be that “Avatar” preaches a worship of “created things” rather than the creator. Of nature rather than God.
In that, Driscoll sees demons. And demons — to him as to many Christians — are as common as weeds.
“['Avatar'] is new age, satanic, demonic paganism, and people are just stunned by the visuals,” he said. “Well, the visuals are amazing because Satan wants you to emotionally connect with a lie.”
Driscoll often makes fun of fundamentalists, but he sure sounds like one himself. He tries to be so hip and cool, but then he starts talking like this, and it’s clear he’s just like all the other fundie preachers but with different clothes and music.
Here’s the video:
I thought part of Driscoll’s shtick was that he wouldn’t tell you that you couldn’t listen to certain bands or not watch whatever movies. Guess that was all bull. Boy am I surprised.
wonder what he thinks of MaNSON….
Critics always come out of the woodwork when somebody stands up for what is right…way to reveal the truth Mark!
Are you being sarcastic? Because if not you are being a dumb*ss.
(cuz, you know, everyone knows that THE DAVINCI CODE is the most satanic movie ever made… or was it… THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST is the mostest most satanic movie?!?! ZOMG!!!)
This church annoys me. I run by it all the time. It is like right across the street from my favorite brewery too. They had some foiled break in a couple weeks ago.
This actually makes me want to see Avatar somewhat. lol. I would love to see the most satanic movie ever.
You better check this out for yourselves:
Avatar is the most satanic movie ever.
Check this out for the full details:
http://rikijo.blogspot.com/2009/12/phase-v-operation-maras-kiss-james.html
The comments in the PI are brilliant. Everyone hates him for good reason
Avatar is the most watched movie of our time.
The only Christian movie that probably gets anywhere near those kind of ratings was “The Passion”.
Obviously Satan is doing a much better job.
But the message isn’t, “primitive is good, advanced is bad.” It’s that the presumption that we are better simply because we have more advanced technology is bad. Can he really not tell the difference?
And as for the “false Jesus” . . . has he ever read . . . . any literature? The Jesus figure is pretty hard to escape.
nor is he consistent across different works of literature
By at least 3000. (Osiris/Horus)
He isn’t even consistent within the bible, or even within the same gospel at times.
The Christ figure predates Christ by thousands of years.
Oops. That should have been posted here.
I think it’s just as easy to extract the meaning that ‘materialism is bad,’ which is a huge basis of Jesus’ teachings, no?
Not if you make tons of $$$ with your “mega-church,” I guess!!!
Disappointing to see one of the new generation, part of the “emerging church,” going back to some of Falwell’s old tricks. Still, he’s always been very conservative on many issues – complementarian and calvinist.
I didn’t realize Driscoll was ever part of the “emerging” church. Why? Just because he wears blue jeans?
He was associated with the emergent movement for a while, but he broke ties. He still has emergent tendencies but, yeah, now he’s pretty much a Calvinist fundie dressed down.
My brain automatically read down as clown. Fits pretty well, I gotta say.
I loved the part where he insists “I IZ NOT FUNDEE. NO, SRSLY.”
“I’ll ram my ovipositor down your throat and lay my eggs on your chest, but I’m not an alien!” </MST3K>
LOL
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!! Love MST3K!
People love to hear stories about messiahs, saviors, chosen ones, heroes etc. Just look at, like, every movie ever made, and every story ever told. From Beowulf to the Matrix. From the story of David to the Legend of Zelda, to Lord of the Rings, to Dune, Super Mario blah blah blah.
Maybe Mark Driscoll should consider that his treasured Jesus story could just be a version of the same story everyone likes to hear, which is partially the basis for its popularity.
I won’t hold my breath.
This jezus legend is the most boring legend they created. I did love the old bible, but the new testament was too boring for me. Avatar at least makes more sense and has more action.
Hating on the most watched movie of all time makes you a ‘rebel’.
Good job, Mark! You are now qualified to post in the Ain’t It Cool News talkbalks!
Mark Driscoll likes to hear himself talk. His interests are self-serving, and like any evangelical, fundamentalist or other religous nut job, his beliefs and teachings are sheer and utter nonsense. Billions of humans around the world follow the teachings of idiots like this. The idiots have a variety of names like Anjum Chaudri, Thomas Muthee, David Miscavige, Pat Robertson, Pope Benedict XVI, Abdullah ‘Aa Gym’ Gymnastiar, Thomas S. Monson or the Dalai Lama but they all have one thing in common: they spread misinformation under a guise of holiness, truth, love, freedom, peace, religious duty or struggle, gospel, self improvement or spiritual englightenment but ultimately each and every one of these teachers causes more harm than good, more violence than peace, more hatred than love, more discord than harmony, and more ignorance than education. I truly believe mankind is doomed unless we fully embrace scientific knowledge and completely drop the hocus pocus man in the sky bullcrap to which we have clung for thousands upon thousands of years. One rotten apple really does spoil the whole bushel! When will we ever learn?
People took real life lessons from the Avatar movie? Seriously?
The lesson I took from it was “How to make a pile of money using an old overused story and shiny new technology”
It was a fun movie, thats about it. I really failed to see any good take home messages, other than the obvious ones they hit you over the head with.
Proof that it’s satanic, because that’s exactly what Satan wants you to think!
That satan! He runs circles around me. Oh well, I’ll go back to being imaginary.
Bet you wish you had though of a story like the one in Avatar, eh?
Man, that satan guy really had me fooled! It’s true – he is VERY deceptive. I thought it was a great movie with a morality lesson. And now I see that promoting decency, connection among living beings, and respect for the earth is very, very evil. Thank you, pastor, for making this clear to all of us.
I kinda thought the lesson was, “Don’t let rampant greed destroy the beauty of nature around you.” Guess he’s all against THAT idea!
Oh, and, “3D glasses + well done visuals = a cool 2 hours.”
3D glasses? Sorcery I tells ya!
More proof it’s Satan! Maybe Driscoll is on to something here. Next you’re going to tell me those characters don’t exist in the material world, just like demons!
Well, watching Avatar DID give me a newfound appreciation for walking outdoors, fresh air, and getting more exercise.
The lessen I got is that there is wonderful life out there to be discovered.
No, there’s really nothing “out there”, outside of you that’s better than the whole new, unexplored spiritual realm and world within you. But few ever set out on the inward journey, they are outwardly focused, sense motivated.
There is more within than without, so much more.
john, the only times I’ve set out on that journey, I have been heavilly dosed with lisurgic acid, psilocyban mushrooms or payoti cactus. Please accept that I say this only out of concern for you: Sane people do not talk the way you talk. Really.
The other thing I learned is that a 3 m tall blue girlfriend is the most sexy thing I have seen.
My next girlfriend won’t be 3 m but definitely blue. LOL
Smurfophile!
I am trying to convince my GF to be blue but she does not like the idea. LOL
Just date you a Blue Fugate:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kyperry3/Blue_Fugates_Troublesome_Creek.html
LOL!!!
He is saying the world is satan from the beginning. Wonder which planet he is from.
Avatar’s “message” is about as deep as a dime novel’s, and a plagiarised one into which a five year old pasted his collection of colorful gum stickers at that. Driscoll is barking up a Bonsai, and thereby confirms that he’s a very dumb person.
LOL and the Bible’s message is about as deep as a dime’s novel too. Perhaps this is why the Christians are getting so worked up over Avatar. They see in it some similarity to their own storybook of fantasy (the Bible, which no doubt is a totally true narrative from beginning to end) and jump to the conclusion that Avatar must be some highly clever yet inherently evil tool created by Satan to lure people into sin and heresy. Bible thumpers are such a deep-thinking well-educated group of people, don’t ya know?
Perhaps this is why the Christians are getting so worked up over Avatar. They see in it some similarity to their own storybook of fantasy…
Partially this. Also, there is a serious rejection of the (supposedly) Christian ethic of turning the other cheek, a diminishment of humans as being “special”, indigenous resistance to being reeducated by outsiders, and some other uncomfortable notes.
Indeed! Any story which does not line up exactly with their ideology is considered by them to be too dangerous to even think or talk about. Making a fiction movie which portrays a natural order of things contrary to their doctrine is anathema. This is yet another example of how Christianity constipates free thinking, creativity, and the ponderance of new ideas.
I suppose that by extension, Pocohontas, Gulliver’s Travels, the Dune series and every other book and movie with a technology vs. nature (or a commercialism vs. nature) theme is also bad.
That’s a pretty wide spread of books and movies.
But honestly, Avatar’s story isn’t anything new. It’s dressed up in shiny new technology is all. I’ll admit it looks good (when can we get those graphics in videogames? Ten years?) but the story is pretty old. Though considering that there’s something like fifteen years between the script-writing and the actual movie being made, the story probably seemed new at the time.
I never understood this argument about not new.
If the story is not new, so what? Who cares if it is a new story or not, I just love it seeing it again and again and again.
Satanic. Yeah.
Whenever I hear fundamentalists harp about Satanism, my mind drifts back to the 80s. When you could be an “anti-Christian Satanist” by pretending to be an elf at your parent’s dining room table. The “Dungeons and Dragons is Satanic” rants of the 1980s were enough to convince me at a fairly young age to be skeptical of cries of “Satanism” in pop culture.
My parents were still spinning that yarn in the year 2000. They were quite disconcerted when I brought home the video game Diablo as well. Oh boy.
Amen to that. I still remember all the ‘concerned’ parents at the church I attended going apeshit over the fact that a few of us played D&D on the weekends. It was the beginning of the end for me ;-)
heh, this is a classic… classic reaction to losing power to something greater then they are.
This guy is retarded…it was a great movie, it was fiction, get over it…
When will Christians stop attacking works of fiction? They’re FICTION. NOT. REAL. What is so hard to understand about this?
Where to find “real” satan or any like that?
Not for nothing, but fiction is an incredibly powerful meme-spreading vector. Heck, just look at what the Bible did…
The Bible is being taught as non-fiction. Avatar, however, makes no such attempt. Everyone knows it’s just a fictional story, just like they know Harry Potter isn’t real. It might present forth ideas like be one with nature and that’ll get you somewhere, but only within the context of that story; following that “advice” won’t get you anywhere in the real world. I really don’t know how this guy can go off on fiction for…being fiction.
Christians like to use the word “deception” of satan, though appalling.
From a psychological point of view, I don’t think the distinction means all that much. Barring the most extreme literalists, everyone is internalizing some and fictionalizing some of whatever work they consume. The suspension of disbelief requires at least a provisional acceptance of the metaphysics undergirding a work in order to understand its themes and anticipate its unfolding (which catharsis requires), which in turn requires that a person train their mind to provisionally accept the metaphysics, making it that much easier for related constructs to be adopted.
I agree with you on the wider point that Christians focusing their wrath on popular fiction is a case of picking the very wrong, exceptionally stupid battles, if for no other reason than that they are guaranteed to lose.
Elemenope – I don’t quite agree. Growing up in a “literalist” home, I was clearly taught was was fairy tale & what was real. Jesus was real, princess stories were fairy tales. Hansel & Gretl was a big hit with my generation – pretty twisted, when ya think about it – parents try to lose kids in woods, witch tries to eat kids. But I knew that was false. What REALLY freaked me out was the story of Abraham & Isaac (because it was “true”). God commands dad to slaughter son – dad thinks this is a difficult, but reasonable request and proceeds to start – god in all his mercy gives the kid a stay of execution. Also very twisted. But this made a far deeper impression – I thought since my dad was a man of god too, what if god told him to kill me? He would have to do it. I had no worries, however, that a witch would eat me. This kind of fear, distrust, and expectation of violence sets kids up for DEEP psychological problems & PTSD. All these years later, I still struggle with it. Christianity & the bible would not be harmful if it were not taught as REAL and TRUE – and not only that – THE ONLY TRUTH without which you will burn forever. How can ANYONE believe that raising a child in the cult of evangelical christianity is a good thing????
Not only is the Jesus figure prevalent, Jung’s archetypes include “nature vs. technology” or “educated ignorance vs. innate wisdom”. I teach archetypes to my high school English students, but I had not considered the comparison of memes and archetypes – Jung believed archetypes were central to our understanding of the world, and that without them we would go mad…MAD, I TELLS YA!
I wonder if this could relate at all to the depression many people felt after watching the movie. Not only was it such a success, but some people liked it SO much that they were depressed that it wasn’t real.
Do I hear a new religion knocking?
You mean….I can’t be Jedi any more?
If you think his movie critiquing is bad check out his historical and exegetical abilities… just as bad, if not worse.
http://scotteriology.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/mark-driscoll-as-scholar-and-exegete/
Eek.
—
I don’t understand how he didn’t recall the part where Sigorney Weaver’s character (Erica) was extremely explicit about the fact that their being “in tune” with nature was a completely natural phenomenon, in which they were able to “download” and “upload” their thoughts and memories into the world around them. How could this have not been more obvious then whey they physically attached their ponytails to the animals they were riding. From what I took from the movie, it seemed more like a naturalistic interpretation of the world than some flowery, “God is in everything” message. In fact, I don’t remember they Na’vis ever using the word God, though I may be wrong about that.
I saw a very naturalistic approach to this movie, one in which nature itself had a developed a sort of conciousness, through purely natural means, and the animals on that planet were able to tap into that conciousness.
This guy is a whackjob who is just looking for any excuse to deride something our there in the “secular world”, and keep up the facade that Christians are in a spiritual battle against the world. Ridiculous.
So, it’s satanic to connect physically with things that give you oxygen and food? Doesn’t that imply that Christianity is a death cult?
Breastfeeding is satanic then I suppose.
Wow – did he just come up with a trinity of enemies ? The world hates me, I hate myself and the Devil hates me too ! At least I get to be a part of a trinity now. It never seemed fair to me that god was the only one who got in on that deal. I thought the movie was a predictable story wrapped up in some cool technology. Hmmmm maybe that’s what the world/me/devil trinememy wanted me to think ???
“That was so enlightening, no that was so darkening”
Did anyone else notice that Driscoll doesn’t know his opposites?
And hell, if I was him I wouldn’t admit to having two home theatre systems… doesn’t that just shout greed? Something that is ‘sinful’ among christians?
It seems that Christians who enjoy wealth and luxury just so happen to frequently find scriptural and theological support for it, while Christians who are poor for various reasons just so happen to find plenty of support for the virtues of poverty and modesty.
What a pathetic loser.
I wonder what Driscoll has to say about the 1978 Superman movie. I bet he thinks *that’s* evil, too!
There is one thing about Avatar that concerns me.
I am expecting some nuts to actually believe Avatar is true, that there is a real Pandora out there with blue smurfs and they start some sect trying to get in contact with them.
I don’t mind role playing, that is fun but some people that actually start to hug tree’s and cows to start painting themselves blue and cannot separate fiction from fact. The Na’vi like Avatar does not exist. This is fact. You might find aliens but they will not be Na’vi.
Holy shit. I guess the modern world really does turn most xians into fundies, eventually.
Why do these people take fiction so seriously? Its fiction. Sure there may be a message in Avatar (after its its a Disney’s Pocahontas/Dances With Wolfs rip of story wise (which means my prediction was right; they spent 3 years (they claim 11 but I think they actually spent 3 years actually working on it and the rest of the time doing other things) and at a month till release they remembered that they forgot the story) but messages get lost in bad stories.
Its frekin’ fiction. get over it.
This is actually depressing to me. It exhausts me, hearing people so misled, misleading others! Sometimes I think there’s no hope for humankind – we are destined to lock ourselves into destructive myths that will destroy us. I was at my parents’ this weekend, and my dad had a sermon on the radio sunday morning. It was about whether Buddhists, and other good people would go to heaven or not. Wow – this preacher knew the answer! He said, where shall I start? And started quoting the bible like crazy, backing up his assertion that ONLY followers of Jesus will go to heaven, the rest will burn. Listening to this kind of shit drains my energy & it’s hard for me to see the humor – at least right now – maybe in the future…
This pastor has a history of making outrageous statements and behaviour that really should be a concern for anyone that has been through any type of religious and or spiritual abuse and is still a member of his flock.
I wrote this almost 2 years ago. It is still applicable today and speaks directly to the problem with the type of church’s that are perpetuating spiritual and religious abuse of it’s elders and former members. No matter what you package or disguise you wrap it in it speaks to the need for an individual to control others. That does not negate the fact that the conditioning of the psyche to submit to the power of the group and or leader is flat out dangerous to the mental and emotional makeup of any one individual..
The greatest threat to any cult/organization/ group/ and or belief system is when we no longer let others tell us who we are. What we are..There is God, and the rest is open for debate. Repetition may be the mother of all study but if we don’t move forward in life it’s just monotonous parroting of someone elses perspective. or closer to the mark to say others opinions or judgements which is really a messed up way to create and live one’s life.
To face one’s demons head on..without pychobabble BS or long explanations to others, or jumping through hoops and designs of others to appease and gain the approval of others..thats the beginning of real freedom.I
It’s comforting to know theres’s those of us out there who don’t blindly assasinate our brains in the name of right theology, ideals, and who won’t sacrifice our very individual souls to gain a new lease on life that looks like, sounds like, and walks like everyone else…
This is not a bashing of spirituality or religion or church as a whole. I have returned to my Episcopal roots and have found comfort and sound direction in my spiritual path.
This is a warning to those who will completely give themselves over to a leader’s authority or church rule. Mars Hill is now and has been on the radar, and the multiple problems surrounding this pastor are already well documented.
And while he is so quick to judge others, I ask you Pastor Driscoll where is the humility and contrite heart for your arrogance, pride, and hate of of any one that dares question you.?
You really should take a look at your self before judging a movie that was not based on fact but fiction. If you were an intelligent individual you would have know this.
In closing to all members of Mars Hill “Dont drink the Kool Aid”.. Though it may go down smooth in the end it will sting like a serpent.
Respectfully,
Brent Brumbaugh
It’s not dangerous because of charismatic leaders or “church rule”. Christianity is a different kind of cult – the “charismatic leader” is the bible. This is the destructive, violent piece of fiction that is passing for wisdom and truth among the very brainwashed. Most evangelical christians sound almost the same – same vernacular, dogma, judgment, intolerance & fear. Same as when I grew up, and now, when I turn on the tv sunday mornings. It’s not that this particular pastor is full of it – he represents ALL evangelical pastors, especially across north america. He is trying to be “hip” and relevant, but is spouting the same destructive crap that has destroyed so many. I feel that you may have missed the point.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/archives/195724.asp
Hail Satan!
dumb ass evangelists…
Wake up People!
Avatar is the most satanic movie ever.
Check this out for the full details:
http://rikijo.blogspot.com/2009/12/phase-v-operation-maras-kiss-james.html
Some of these comments seem incredibly judgmental towards christianity. It is fine to have your own perspective and values in life. But please remember that there is a possibility that your views are heavily shaped by a narrow modern/western way of thinking. By putting down other culture’s views it sounds like you are saying that your views are superior to other’s, which in effect is very similar to what christians are doing.
Looking back a hundred years, some of the things our grandparents believed seem silly, and I’m sure our ancestors will look at many of our views and think them silly too. It seems arrogant to put our 2010 westernism as superior to another belief, because we believe we hold the correct belief. What makes us so certain that we have the true knowledge of what is the best value system?
@Ben – yes, I admit it. I am judgmental toward christianity. I try NOT to be toward christians, but that’s a work in progress. I am not saying I have all the answers – but I know enough to realize that christianity is not only ridiculous and wrong, it is extremely destructive. Many of us grew up in christian homes, and are intimately familiar with this dogma. And it’s very difficult to be able to see this, yet have so many peoplea around you blind to it. It would be like you telling me not to be so judgmental to the flat earth people, because who am I to think that my belief in a spherical earth is superior?
Janet,
I think the problem with any religion or moral system is that it gives a person the feeling of being superior to those that don’t believe or that don’t measure up. When someone believes they have ‘The Truth’ regarding any philosophy or belief, it seems natural to feel a little bit better than those who aren’t enlightened. Holding on to a set of moral values or religious beliefs gives a sense of value and identity, it gives a ‘leg up’ on everyone else, and this is probably why religion often ends up as a power struggle with horrible consequences. The irony is that morality makes people prideful and destructive. As a Christian, I think that the teachings of Jesus are different from religious and moral life in a good way. From my understanding, a Christian is someone who deeply realizes that they are prideful, arrogant, selfish, and most to be pitied. Being forgiven and accepted in spite of this is such an astounding thing that it in turn is what changes a Christian to be forgiving and accepting of others.
There’s another way to do that – and that is to reject the whole concept of original sin – to take responsibility, but to forgive ourselves for our flaws, since we are only human…this makes it easier to forgive others. I am an atheist, and I do this all the time. And yes, when we are loved and forgiven, it makes us better people and more likely to be kind to others also. I prefer to be forgiven by actual people, though…people who talk back to me when I speak to them. I understand that you base your morals on jesus – but you are clearly a decent person anyway. Why do you need a “jesus” to tell you that love, kindness, and forgiveness is a good thing? Isn’t that obvious?
Oh, one more thing – when we believe that we are “prideful, arrogant, selfish, and most to be pitied”, we will more likely act like that. If we believe that we are decent, moral, and compassionate (albeit, flawed) people, that is who we will be. That is why “original sin” is so destructive – it tears people down (to prepare them to be “saved” by jesus, no doubt). But it is much healthier not to tear down in the first place. And it’s completely unnecessary.
Thanks for the reply, those are good points, and I don’t think they are very easy to answer. I feel like taking full responsibility for my flaws and being able to forgive myself because I am only human isn’t actually taking responsibility. It seems like it is shifting the blame on my humanity, saying that I am not perfect, but neither is anybody else. For me it doesn’t work because every day I see how selfish and uncompassionate I am with the people close to me, and when I hurt these people, I need to take full responsibility and realize I am truly flawed. This sounds pretty dark, and I think it would be if there wasn’t someone to accept you and love you deeply anyways, despite the flaws. I think it is this kind of love that inspires someone to be compassionate and loving without getting a “big head” in the process.
Forgiveness and love from other people is important, but it can’t always be counted on. No one is completely accepting and forgiving at all times, no matter what. Even those who accept us the most and are the closest to us can’t live up to our expectations of love, because they act selfishly too at times. I feel like the things I have messed up in my life, as well as the horrible things that have happened in human history, need a deeper and more profound love and forgiveness than saying ‘nobody is perfect’. I guess this doesn’t really explain a lot, but to me it shows how love and forgiveness from an invisible supreme being could be powerful and life changing. Sorry for the long comments, and thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts.
@Ben – I see where you’re coming from. I guess for me, it would be nice if there was an all-loving, all-perfect, all-powerful being up in the sky giving me moral direction, preparing a nice place for me after I croak, etc. My problem with the christian god, however, is numerous. First of all, the god of the bible is cruel & unpredictable – nobody I would trust or worship (and certainly not a being I would want to spend eternity with). Second, there is no evidence that such a being exists. So even if I wanted to believe it, I would be unable to. So I’m left with the imperfection of humankind; I’m left to make these moral decisions on my own, to the best of my (imperfect) ability. And yes, people do disappoint us. I think it’s important to let go of the notion of perfection. It’s a childish utopia that doesn’t exist. Then we can stop being so hard on ourselves and on others, and stop wishing for a magic genie to make everything ok. It enables us to deal with reality the way it actually is, and to be ok with it! I think the biblical emphasis on perfection is very destructive to the maturing process. This took me years to accept – because I grew up in a christian home, it was very hard for me to let go of the deep belief that there is somebody up there. In fact, it took me about 12 years of active searching to get to that place. But everyone’s journey is different…
That’s a good point, probably one of the main differences is between believing whether there is some sort of perfection/utopia out there or not. If a perfect morality doesn’t exist, then your morals are your own, and I don’t think it’s fair to critique someone else’s personal moral system. If we say someone ‘should’ act in a certain way, that ‘should’ seems to be implying that there is an ideal moral standard that ‘should’ be met. If someone says Christians ‘should’ be decent people, then it is implying that Christian morality doesn’t meet their personal moral criteria. Who’s to say whose expectation of morality is the right one? Love and kindness means something different for people all around the world. If there is an absolute and perfect good, and the horrible and cruel things in this world are humanity’s responsibility, then a perfect God would be right to judge us. In this view it would be unjust for him to forgive us. It’s just hard for me to see humanity as being naturally decent, especially coming out of one of the bloodiest and most ethnically hateful centuries in history. Sorry, I should probably stop posting, I just read the rule about not evangelizing.
You are providing thoughtful answers and we are having a meaningful discussion. I think Daniel is referring to people who shut down debate by quoting bible verses, and don’t actually think about what they’re saying (hate to put words in your mouth, Daniel – hope this is right…).
I am not necessarily a moral relativist just because I’m not a christian. I think it’s clear that some things are moral and others are not. Many things fall into the grey area, but that’s where we are supposed to have discussions and come up with semi-reasonable answers. For example, going up to an old lady and shooting her for no reason is wrong. My personal moral code has to do with minimizing human suffering and maximizing human dignity and connectedness. This is reasonable and logical to me – when people treat others with respect, love and kindness, we are happier, less fearful, the world is a better place, we have more energy to spend on positive pursuits (knowledge, adventure, love, whatever puts the THC in your pot). In an evolutionary sense, people band together in kinship because it makes us stronger than we are as individuals. Sometimes issues are harder – when it becomes a “lesser of two evils” situation. We are just animals, like the lion who eats a deer because he’s hungry…the idea that there is a god who judges our behaviour (but not any of the other mammals, even though we are almost genetically identical) seems, frankly, absurd and arbitrary to me.
Really interesting stuff to talk about, its definitely hard for me to thing through all this. I see what you are saying about relativism. I guess what I’m dealing with is that I don’t understand how human dignity can be found through logic and reason. If we are a mix of certain chemicals and substances, how does it logically lead to human value. If its just the way the that matter is organized that separates us from a pile of rocks, then how do we get more value then rocks? I feel that if I realized during the greatest moments of friendship, love, forgiveness, and connectedness in life that its just chemicals effecting my brain, it would make all of these things incredibly trivial. It seems like it would be depressing, because it would mean that love, social justice, peace, and friendship are arbitrary workings of natural selection. So while they seem to be good for gaining advantage over other things, deep down it really doesn’t have any meaning. Even to say that one thing has ‘advantage’ over another doesn’t have meaning. What makes advantage ‘good’?
So I feel like the only conclusion would be that since there is no meaning, just pursue whatever feels right for you and doesn’t hurt others. But in that case you would have to claim to know what is right for others, which would take god-like abilities to decide or even begin to understand. So then we live knowing that love and friendship aren’t real, but we play the game because we are trying to fill our life with as much happiness as possible, but happiness is an arbitrary chemical phenomenon, and in the end it all amounts to nothing.
But if there is a human dignity that makes us unique, it would make sense why God would judge people and not animals. If there is a God that judges human violence, it would show that war and fighting between races and countries is unacceptable vs. lions eating deer. Human violence is encouraged if there is no supreme being to judge, because there is the possibility of getting away with it. Ugh, another long post, I’m not to good at getting to the point!
Avatar is the most satanic movie ever.
Check this out for the full details:
http://rikijo.blogspot.com/2009/12/phase-v-operation-maras-kiss-james.html
There is a whole lot of crazy just one mouse click away.
This is a crazy world we live in.
Actually “READ” the articles on this site before you open your mouth to comment.
We don’t see you on the site. -So you can’t comment on what you don’t know.
OK. I only read the linked article before first commenting. I have since read a couple of the articles. Unless there is a disclaimer that I missed that said that website is a spoof, I stand by my original comment:
There is a whole lot of crazy just one mouse click away.
I think you have to use the secret decoder.
Unless you are from Texas :)
F*ck you.
Well said ESQUIRESS LRA!!! :-) I was going to comment but I saw you on this thread and figured it wouldn’t be long before you saw the Texas comment.
hee hee!
LRA, ESQUIRESS OF TEXAS, Y’ALL!!!!
:P
Anybody want to bet that Driscol and Thinkers have the same IP address?
That was my 1st thought.
It’s too late Driscoll, we’ve already won.
Even now as the shark-dna runs through my blood, I’m watching you on our satellites. It’s rather easy since I infused my genetic code with that of a praying mantis, those extra eyes come in handy.
My demonic alien overlords are closing in on you now, pathetic meat-creature. Mwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaaaaaa!
Satan and the Illuminati in one article, I hope it doesn’t create a critical mass of stupid that will suck the world into a black hole. However, since you’re apparently an expert I have a question that been bugging me for some time. You and the rest of the conspiracy nutjobs been telling us that the Illuminati are this all powerful secret society that have been running every government on earth for centuries. If this is the case how come any half literate moron with an internet access know all of their secret plans and has no problem posting them online with out being disappeared.
“half literate moron with an internet access”
On behalf of half literate morons with internet access, I take exception to being grouped with this wackjob. :D
“This is a crazy world we live in.”
It’s ok, we understand that the world confuses and scares you. You can go back and hide under that rock where you came from. You can be safe there.