Christians have a major guilt problem with pornography. Most Christian men look at it, but rarely do they want to talk about it — and when they do, it’s usually to beat themselves up.
I was thinking about this as I was reading Stuff Christians Like author Jonathan Acuff mention his struggle with pornography:
The best example is the one that’s had a choke hold on me for two decades, porn. As I’ve mentioned a bajillionity times before, that’s something I’ve struggled with since I was a kid. And with the Stuff Christians Like book coming out and the pressure to succeed creeping in, I feel the temptation of porn renewed. But to tell you the truth, I haven’t really done anything to expel it from my life. Unlike a body completely focused on rallying against the wrongness of a poisoned pastrami sandwich, I haven’t done anything. Ultimately, only God can heal wounds like porn, but I haven’t looked at my life for the broken windows that are allowing it to seep into my heart. I haven’t repaired fences or reached out to anyone.
So the other day, I decided to sign up for X3 online software from XXXchurch.com. In the past I’ve used Safe Eyes and Covenant Eyes (Why does everyone use eyes in their name?), but with a newish computer, I wanted to try something new. So a friend I trust and love is going to get a report of everything I look at online. It’s not a silver bullet. It won’t be magic, but I think it’s a step to throwing up a poison I clearly struggle with.
Acuff feels terrible about his desire to look at pornography — so terrible that he’s willing to let an “accountability partner” get a list of everything he looks at online. That seems a bit obsessive to me… though if someone really needs help, then I suppose that’s what they need to do.
But is pornography really that big of a deal? Acuff says he’s been struggling with it since he was a kid — just like most men — but from what I can tell, he’s turned out fine. He hasn’t turned into a monster or a rapist (at least that I can tell!). I’m sure he still loves his family and friends and has no wish to harm anyone.
It doesn’t seem worth beating yourself up over something that isn’t a big deal. Life is too short to feel guilty for just being normal.
* * *
We haven’t really discussed porn here before. Years ago I thought porn was morally corrosive and turned men into rapists. Now that I’m an atheist I don’t think it’s objectively wrong. Like many things, it can be bad. It can become a serious addiction. There are also some forms of pornography that I still consider morally reprehensible (rape & child porn, for instance).
But is there anything morally wrong with getting sexually excited by a naked person? I don’t think so — what do you all think?
I don’t think it turns men into rapists, but I think it hurts people on multiple levels.
First, the porn industry destroys lives. People are used up and thrown away. By watching it you are supporting that industry.
Second, it sets unrealistic expectations for young people. They see idealized versions of what sex should be like, and the real thing rarely measures up.
Third, it creates mistrust between spouses. Keeping secrets is never a good idea.
“People are used up and thrown away.” – Like migrant workers and day laborers?
“Second, it sets unrealistic expectations for young people.” – Just like TV and Advertisements.
“Keeping secrets is never a good idea.” – Nobody is forcing you to keep it a secret.
“I think it hurts people on multiple levels.” – Got any better examples?
…and by coming up with other causes of the same problems, you negate his argument?
I think the point is more that simply because this one has to do with sex, it is no different than industries that do not include sex, and so should not be treated differently. It is not an argument against the point that they are exploitative, but an argument against the notion they are special or should be held apart for greater scrutiny.
It’s an important distinction. The issue should not be about sexuality per se – it should be about humanity and equality. Whatever de-humanizes is immoral. This could include the street hooker and the child laborer. Or the adult laborer working 2 minimum-wage jobs so he feed his kids. All dehumanizing. All equally immoral, in my view.
His arguments negates itself.
Harm coming from an industry is one thing, but not all porn comes from that industry. Much of it is amateur now. So the argument is against immoral practices and not naked people.
Ideolizing people is exactly what fantasy is all about. Can’t really do anything about that. Would you really ask for people to stop trying to imagine perfect people that they have seen? “please only fantasize about average people”?
Come on now.
I’m sorry, but since when does porn ruin relationships? I’ve always thought porn was better when shared with one’s mate….
@WMD
China beat you to the punch:
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/AmazingAnimals/porn-boost-male-pandas-sex-drives/story?id=9718714
But was it furry porn?
That’s what 4chan and gelbooru.com is for ;)
When it becomes out of control – addiction is always negative. And there are people addicted to porn. To me, unless it involves lack of consent, porn is pretty neutral morally. But I wouldn’t want to date a guy who was constantly jerking off to the computer or a magazine.
Porn should be listed under “controlled substance”, not free sexuallity.
Darkmatter – Interesting way of looking at it – but then again, so should Doritos – they are equally as addictive….
I mistook you for the other. I always differentiate the two.
.
I must disagree, at least in part.
The porn industry *can* ruin lives, but there are many legitimate studios that do not use any coercion on their actors, and many of those actors actually enjoy their jobs (based on a number of interesting interviews I have read).
It can set unrealistic expectations, but nothing that is permanently damaging IMO. The false body images supported in popular media are at least as damaging, if not moreso. I’d venture to say that young women are much more likely to look up to actresses and models than porn stars for their image of what they should look like. Otherwise all it does is give young people ridiculous ideas of what sex is like, which are quickly cured by experiencing it. This is, of course, ignoring the explicitly dangerous types of pornography such as child porn, which are a whole different story.
The secrets argument I imagine comes from a perception that it is wrong to look at porn so you will hide it from your spouse. If, however, you and your spouse do not have any problem with porn then there is no need to keep any secrets, and it can even be a healthy addition to your relationship.
Stephan you clearly have no clue what the porn industry is.
SOME porn creators are bad people but the 95% of the other porn is done by people that actually want to do it.
what do you all think?
Effectiveness depends on quality.
I think its better for people to look at porn, or get relief in similiar ways then just to repress their urges. And about young people and unrealistic expectations, I think most young people watching porn realize that it’s not real life. Like they do with other videos. And even to them the same applies, better have them watch porn then to suppres natural urges, that will only be bad for development. (as a psychologist if you don’t believe me) It only creates mistrust between spouses if your spouse has a problem with you watching pornography now and then, which I think he or she shouldn’t, as I would argue that people watch to porn to get relief, not to replace their spouse with a porn star.
I’m not saying there are no porn producers with reprehensible practices, sure there are, like in all business, but I don’t think this applies to the whole industry.
Playboy magazine is ok. Rape and child porn is not!
We know that adult hetero porn doesn’t increase the rate of hetero rape.
I have a ‘what if’ question, since no serious studies have been done on it.
What if viewing porn lowered a rapists desire? What if child pornography lowered child rape? What if child pornography could be made using computer models instead of real children? What if small child like robots were sold to keep pedophiles hands off real children?
Those are all very uncomfortable thoughts, and really change the idea of ‘child porn is wrong’.
That sort of shit should have been in Edge’s What Is Your Dangerous Idea?
We had this discussion on a private forum a couple of months ago. It started with the US trial of a man accused of having pedophile pornography. The interesting twist on the case was that all of the material in question was animated. In Japan, drawings of naked adolescents is common, but when that material was imported to this guy in the US it became a crime.
Following on the heels of that news was the release of the first sex robot, which turned the conversation to the idea of selling child sized sex robots to keep pedophiles from bothering the real thing.
Its a seriously icky thing to think about. I mentioned it to my wife, and she refused to even hold the thoughts in her head.
I do not understand objections to any kind of cartoon pornography, including lolicon. As far as I can tell, it should be protected by the first amendment. Basically, the only rationale I have heard for banning it is that it is disgusting, which is hardly a good reason to make it illegal.
I’m not sure if making lolicon legal would decrease the trade of child pornography–I imagine it probably would–but to me it doesn’t matter.
I’m a little squicked by Loli, but if that’s what turns your crank, go ahead. You’re not hurting anyone.
The “sex-bot”, however, takes us straight into the Uncanny Valley. I find it seriously creepy, in -any- sized model.
Creepy yes, but if you were a legislator, would you seek to ban it?
@Revyloution
If the legislator were from my country, the answer would be YES:
http://www.japanator.com/philippines-to-ban-hentai-calls-it-child-pornography–9704.phtml
Ironically, virtually none of the sex offenders here have even heard of hentai, much less anime, so I don’t see why we otakus have to get lumped together with the real sickos :(
A men with cartoon kiddie porn is not harming anyone unless a serious study proves that that sort of activity can increase lust for the real thing.
I would indeed like to know if the use of different surrogates could reduce the sexual urge.
It would make me feel that my children are safer.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to address rationally the problem.
We’ve been so much scared that now we cannot even discuss the issue in terms that are not “burn all the pedophiles”.
It is amazing how much “Think of the children” may end up actually harming children…
Good observation Francesco,
People use empirical thinking all the time. They burned the toast last time, so they shorten the duration in the toaster today. Where is the disconnect between empiricism and emotional decision making? How can we encourage people to think more empirically?
I’ve watched porn from my teen years onwards, and used it to masturbate to. Being in a bible doomsday cult, sex with another person wasn’t allowed unless I was married to them. Nowadays I don’t view porn as wrong, and don’t suffer guilt for watching it like I used to.
My partner knows I watch it, and although she doesn’t like porn herself she’s happy enough that I masturbate at those times we haven’t had sex and I feel I want some pleasure. She “thinks it’s great” that I can do that as it doesn’t put her under so much pressure to satisfy me all the time.
I reassure her that I love making love to her and that I prefer her to masturbation+porn.
Putting aside rape/child porn as obviously unethical and harmful, I think the porn industry can hurt people. Does this mean every porn actor is being taken advantage of and abused? No, I don’t think so. In a similar way to prostitution, acting in porn is something that a person can choose to do and still be true to themselves. I wouldn’t do it, but I don’t have a giant penis and am rather shy anyway. :) We’re all different, and we have to acknowledge that some people actually like being filmed having sex and being paid for it.
Maybe if we could shed this victorian attitude about sex in general, it wouldn’t be an industry that is needed as much. At least, I am only surmising. I haven’t researced the porn industry in countries that are less embarrarrased about sex that ours.
THIS.
1st WHAT IS PORN??? I’ve heard the word thrown around for almost anything from the 1800s showing an ankle to children in bondage butt plucked.
ANYTHING that involves children is NOT porn!! IT IS CRIMINAL abuse-PERIOD!!!
RAPE is NOT porn!! IT IS CRIMINAL abuse-PERIOD!!!
Now actions between CONSENTING adults or by an individual (ie playboy pix) is ??????
In this case it is NOT porn to ME. To a self-hating JHIX (jew-hindu-islam-xtian) who believes that pile of BS written by a bunch desert goat-pluckers(or the equivalent) any nudity that is available for viewing by anyone is PORN.
Any activity that is in some basic fashion viewed as immoral or illegal will harm peoples lives.
Yes it sets unrealistic expectations with young people because the religious schite-heads wont discuss it or teach about sex and its drives. It didn’t ruin or hurt my kids because when the subject came up we talked about and its implications.
Yes I like looking at ‘porn’ and naked girls, I’ve not harmed anyone or even thought about warming anyone. I like looking at and am attracted to pretty naked women…don’t like it xtian? then blame your idiot sky-fairy, supposedly it created us this way.
I have to disagree with Stephan at least partially on all counts.
On the first point, I don’t see how porn is any different from the rest of the entertainment industry, be it music, television, film, or sports. Rising stars are hyped often to the point of explosion, then when they’re no longer interesting to the public they fade to the sidelines and often disappear. Only a lucky few make it big enough to be able to last. I’m not at all defending the entertainment industry for this behavior, just saying that it’s not just porn that has this problem.
On the second, I don’t know about you, but I’m a 23 year old male and I’ve been watching porn fairly regularly since 12-13. I can’t say I’ve ever felt disappointed by real sex unless there was actually a good reason to be disappointed by that particular encounter. Porn has certainly given me ideas for use during sex, some of which worked in real life, some obviously only work in film, but I really can’t say it’s been a negative influence. Hell, watching porn has led to real sex more than once.
On the third, that has nothing to do with porn and everything to do with how that couple handles their porn habits. If one or both parties are lying to the other about their porn viewing, of course there’s going to be mistrust. That’s not porn’s fault though, that’s the individuals choosing to lie.
In no way am I saying the porn industry is perfect, just that it doesn’t deserve the negative image that it has in our culture. There is nothing inherently harmful about filming consenting individuals having sex or watching those films.
I’d disagree on the first point, Sean. There’s definitely exploitation in most if not all of the entertainment industry, but it really is in a different league to what is done to many women in the porn industry. There are women who want to be porn stars, who are able to control their careers and what they do (and don’t do), but far too often they’re essentially prostituted on film, with all the implications about drug use, disease etc. that this entails.
Even that isn’t necessarily enough to put someone off pornography. The real killer issue, I think, is that it’s difficult to know which sort of porn you’re watching; participative, or abusive. That, I’d say, is a bit of a turn-off, which seems to defeat the point.
All industries are exploitative. If I dig a hole for my boss and he charges the local council mor for that work than he gives me, then that, by definition is exploitation. The reason why this ´feels´ different in the case of porn is all bound up with old puritanical attitudes towards sex and the naked body that most of us, no matter what we think, haven´t quite managed to shake off.
Your other point, to do with abuse is quite right. Sexual slavery does happen and it´s a big problem. It really is impossible to be sure that what you are seeing on screen is not the result of someone being forced to have sex against their will.
Actually that’s pretty clearly *not* exploitative. If I voluntarily agree to provide my labour to an employer for a certain amount it doesn’t really matter what he can make from that labour in return. Exploitation (except in the trivial sense of ‘use’) must involve some cruel or unjust element, such as your employer not paying you what he promised, say, or imprisoning you against your will and forcing you to have sex on camera while retaining your compliance through coerced drug addiction.
It’s true that this does feel different because it’s sex, but it’s different anyway; the sex just makes it more different.
aah, the garden of delights that is the free market in human labour. Of course, the conversation went something like this, As I remember it;
My boss: “I am caught in somewhat of a bind. You see, I am somewhat in need of a hole digging over at Spiffy Pigglesworth´s rectory. Only I currently find myself unable to do the digging as I have to attend Lord Percy’s lecture on the new science of Phrenology at the Royal Society. If you were able to furnish me with a man who was up to the task, I would reward him hansomely”.
Me: “Well it so happens that I am in possession of a spade and have a yearning for a little vigourous exercise… aah, but I promised Stiffy Pemberton that i`d take her to the opera this evening”.
My boss: “Would 30 guineas go any way to changing your mind?”
Me: “Throw in a magnum of champers and you have a deal”.
My boss: “Done”.
I guess what I’m saying with point #1 is that there’s nothing inherent to the porn industry that leads to such a situation, but I will concede that in the current world that is an issue. My position is that it’s a result of the marginalization of the industry. As with street prostitution, there’s pretty much no one to stand up for the porn stars (I’m also a supporter of legalization and regulation of prostitution, Nevada style), so abusive individuals can thrive. On the flip side though there are a number of examples of porn stars making it big and becoming their own “brand”. Jenna Jameson is of course the cliched example there.
“On the first point, I don’t see how porn is any different from the rest of the entertainment industry, be it music, television, film, or sports”
Um… either you’re really cynical or you really haven’t seen much porn. The overwhelming majority of it these days involves degradation of women and pointless horribleness.
I’m pretty sex-positive and kink-positive but most commercial porn is awful. It even makes Hollywood seem positively refreshing…
Seriously… got to any porn site you like, click on a few of the videos and say, “Would I want a friend of mine doing this?”
There have been studies to the correlation between rape and pornography. Apparently, the easier the access to porn in a area, the lower the instances of rape.
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-14795-SLO-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m7d4-More-porn-means-less-rape
Interesting article. Thanks! I see porn as a sex outlet. Just like video games/sports are a competition/violence outlet. If you’re home watching porn, you aren’t out raping people. If you’re home playing video games, you aren’t out shooting people. Of course, these things may aggravate problems a tiny percentage of sociopaths, but if not for the porn/video game/ sports, it would be something else.
I can’t exalt porn to the level of video games/sport, like sextexting.
First, the porn industry destroys lives. People are used up and thrown away. By watching it you are supporting that industry.
And you know this…how? I’ve read a lot of interviews and spoken with lots of current and past performers in the adult entertainment industry, and almost all of them found their work to be a positive experience. Do you have any idea how much money a female performer in an adult film makes? The idea that everyone in the adult industry is exploited and used up by greedy old white men smoking cigars is a very successful, and very false, myth that has been spread by Christian prudes and militant anti-male feminists for decades. It’s simply not true.
Second, it sets unrealistic expectations for young people. They see idealized versions of what sex should be like, and the real thing rarely measures up.
Oh no, not the poor defenseless young people! Porn is a fantasy. It shows people what’s possible. If someone didn’t already want what porn offered, they wouldn’t continue to consume it. Most normal people like to see other people fucking. A lot. This has and always will be the case. You know why? Because having sex and desiring sex, and for that matter having and desiring LOTS of sex, is NATURAL and NORMAL human behavior. If that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t be here as a species.
Third, it creates mistrust between spouses. Keeping secrets is never a good idea.
Only if you are prudish and think that watching porn is “bad”. Many spouses know that one or the other (or both of them) watches porn and could care less about it. Many more watch porn together. Just because you’re a prude and feel guilty about your own body and your own natural desires doesn’t mean everyone else is.
You said it much better than I could have. I second all of this. The only time porn was ever emotionally harmful to me was when religion told me it was and I got caught up in guilt. Once I let go of that, it has never been a “problem” since.
the *real* Ron Jeremy?
Young people need lots of sex? What is your daily need to be natural?
“Do you have any idea how much money a female performer in an adult film makes?”
Why yes, I do. Clearly you have no idea at all or you wouldn’t post such nonsense. You make a few thousand dollars – there’s even an industry standard pricelist for it, you can get estimates at http://kink.com – for example, you get $1300 for a scene with double penetration in it.
I couldn’t understand the economics until I discovered that they then make money from “personal appearances” and also “private appearances” (which is basically hooking at an extremely high price!)
If god wanted us to be seen naked…we’d be born that way!
Oh, wait…. WE ARE!
lol
I’m surprised that nobody, including Daniel, appears to pick up the point that he is already supposed to have an “accountability partner”: his god.
Not only is there the threat of (I expect) shame from a human knowing his porn habits, but his god is supposed to not only know what he did, but what he intends/wants to do, and be able to dish out “just” punishment willy-nilly on its own whim for whatever reason it’s supposed to see fit.
Meh.
I posted my comment (see below?) before I saw nullifidian’s excellent comment. That was my thought. Supposedly believing that God knows what you do isn’t enough of a deterrent but, having a friend know might be? That is what I never understood about religious people telling us that we need their God/religion in order to be “moral”. If all we needed was God, we wouldn’t need governments or laws made by men.
If they need their god/religion to act ‘morally’, then they’re basically admitting to not having any morals themselves, yet they constantly and consistently claim the high ground in that regard.
Audacious, no?
Exactly! People may think morality comes from their God/religion but, ultimately, it is a personal choice. The vast majority of convicts say they believe in God yet they chose to sin anyway!
Acuff says, “So a friend I trust and love is going to get a report of everything I look at online.”
This is supposed to help how? Doesn’t his God already know everything he does and will judge him accordingly? How strong is his faith if having his friend know what he looks at is more influential than having his God know? What if his friend is offended more by some of the non-porn sites he visits? What if his friend has a different definition of what is porn than he does? For that matter, what if his friend likes porn and he just doesn’t know it? Also, what exactly is his friend supposed to do? I can visit a few hundred websites a day. A few of them may even be considered porn by some people but, one can’t always tell by the URL or the page title that they are porn. Heck, one can hardly access the internet without accidentally coming across some porn sometime. Is Acuff’s friend supposed to check on every page he visited to make sure that he didn’t sneak some porn in? Even if Acuff saw some porn, what is the friend supposed to do? Tsk, Tsk, I caught you! I’m going to stand up in church and tell the whole congregation that you are a pervert!
Sex involves passions that can very easily get beyond control. That’s one reason why society has always sought to control it. Now, clearly, porn isn’t going to turn every man into a rapist or child molester, so a lot of our attempts to control it are overreactions. Still, I think that to deny it can be a problem is to lose touch with reality.
For myself, looking at porn never escalated into anything untoward. (However, I’m not so quick to insist it might not have negatively affected my relationships.) Weird, though, how in recent years I’ve just kinda lost interest. Doesn’t hold a fascination for me anymore. I suspect that if I had stuck with Christianity I’d still be struggling to escape the stuff. But it’s not forbidden fruit anymore, so…. *shrug*
Excuse me, “beyond control”?
“Well, you see, she was wearing this short skirt, and I was ‘beyond control’ — I had to rape her.”
There is no such thing as “beyond control”.
Is that what I said? If so, I missed it myself. On the other hand, people clearly lose control over sex. You don’t want to dispute that, do you? (I see no practical difference, BTW, between “losing control” and “choosing not to exercise control.” How do you tell the one from the other? Either way, it’s “beyond control.”)
And I quote: “Sex involves passions that can very easily get beyond control.”
They don’t get beyond control. People don’t “lose control”.
Sex does involve powerful feelings, both physical and emotional, but never, NEVER, are we not in control.
Being in control implies free will.
Free will is just an illusion. We are all living at the whim of our environment.
I don’t know what you’ve been smoking, but it’s time to put down the bong, dude. (And I say this as a pothead….)
:) I clean as a whistle, the strongest thing I’ve ever put in my body was alcohol.
I also bet you agree with me about not having control.
Do you think homosexuals choose to be gay, or are they ‘born that way’? Most atheists I meet argue for born, not chosen. Sexual preference is all about desire and inborn feelings. How sexual you are is a product of your genes and your environment, and you have control over neither.
There are stories of pedophiles who hate themselves, but can’t control their urges. It’s a common complaint of addicts of all stripes. Free will in the moment doesn’t exist, its an illusion.
If you want to argue that people can control their passions, you fall into the hands of the religious who argue that homosexuality is a choice and that it can be cured.
I disagree. What’s the material difference between, “Joe lost control of himself” and “Joe lost the will to control himself”? We’re largely playing with words in the distinction. Something sent Joe over the edge either way. (In a small minority of cases, that something might plausibly have been pornography.) The result is the same.
Then “Joe” has CHOSEN not to control himself.
What caused him to make that choice? Why do some make it and others don’t?
“Joe lost control of himself” this could mean he did lose control but not intently. While adding, the will to, means he intently give up the control.
But why would he develop that intention? Why would he surrender control?
I’d say that early in my adolescence porn kind of skewed my expectations, but I think losing my virginity at 15 to a very forward girl was more skewing than porn. However, I picked up pretty quickly that most girls are not porn stars. And honestly, the partners that I’ve had that think they need to be like a pornstar in bed, they’re my least favorite experiences because I like sex to be a mutual conversation, not me taking advantage of someone’s genitalia for my own pleasure.
If someone thinks porn turns a person into a rapist they don’t know much about rape or porn.
Am I the only one who laughed when reading this (because of the very awkward phrasing)?
I’m not sure that’s a fair assessment, given the context. This man is married, and if he made vows that even remotely resemble what Christian vows usually look like, pornography violates those vows. To feel guilty about violating your marriage vows is normal and is a big deal.
In other contexts, it’s a different discussion. But in the context that Jonathan established in his blog post (intentionally, I assume), the guilt that he feels is and should be normal.
(Obviously, if your vows or different, or if you’ve reached some other understanding with your spouse/partner, it’s a different story.)
Knowing an ordained minister I fail to see how “traditional christian” (trying hard not to snicker) marriage vows are violated by watching porn.
I guess it just goes to show what some people think are “traditional”, are not.
Trying equally hard not to snicker at “Knowing an ordained minister…”:
Speaking as someone who is qualified to be ordained in just about any Protestant church in the USA, I know what “traditional” means with respect to Christian marriage vows. They are one of the few things that don’t vary widely among (at least Protestant) Christian sects.
How would it break traditional vows?
DF, you were an evangelical when you were married, right? Was it your understanding, while you were an evangelical, that looking upon another woman lustfully (paraphrase of Jesus in the Gospels) was tantamount to adultery? And was it also your understanding that adultery would be a violation of your marriage vows?
I think it’s pretty obvious, actually, to any Christian how viewing pornography violates marriage vows (in just about any Christian context).
*when you got married
That’s what I suspected you meant, but I wanted to be sure.
So lusting = porn = adultery = breaking wedding vows, right?
But lust is much more than porn. It’s the magazine ad with the gal in lingerie. It’s the hot girl running down your street. It’s a mental fantasy. It’s a dream you have at night.
You can’t be a human and not experience lust. So does that mean that everyone breaks their wedding vows? If so, then they would be pretty useless. I think the vows mean real adultery, not lust.
Believing lust actually equates with adultery is a fundamentalist thing that I don’t think even they believe. (For instance, they don’t give church discipline to a woman who says Brad Pitt is hot, but they would if she had sex with Brad Pitt outside of marriage.)
Daniel, I don’t disagree with anything you just typed with respect to experiencing lust. That’s part of being human.
But there’s a clear difference between viewing pornography and masturbating and saying “Brad Pitt is hot,” isn’t there? So, no, I wouldn’t agree with this:
“So lusting = porn = adultery = breaking wedding vows, right?
From the context Jonathan established, we’re actually talking about a sexual act being committed. That sexual act is clearly a violation of wedding vows in a Christian context. It would be normal to experience guilt after doing so, which is my only point.
The point of your OP seems to be that Christians are eschewing what is actually a normal and human impulse. I’m saying something to the contrary. Given the context that Jonathan established (one that you and I are both very familiar with), it’s actually quite normal to feel guilty.
For others who chose different contexts, such as yourself and other commenters here, that guilt may feel foreign. But that doesn’t mean it’s not normal.
I agree the guilt is normal in those context — I guess my entire point was arguing that the guilt is misplaced. Because in my morality, porn and adultery and two very different things.
I always thought someone should make a video titled “Erotic Bible Stories”. In the first scene Adam has an erection, and not sure what to make of it, shows it to Eve. Eve decides to massage it to make the swelling go down, but that only makes it worst (or better depending on your perspective) Soon Eve is kissing it, but that does help. So Adam starts looking for other orifices on Eve’s body to place his erection. Meanwhile a talking snake is pleasuring himself, because he still has many hands and feet. And god saw that is was good.
Scene two: Lot and his daughters, the first threesome!
lol
I would pay absurd amounts of money to see that.
And for the gay community, “Noah Gets Drunk and Shows HIs Junk”
Followed by an orgy at the city of Sodom and Gomorrah :D
Followed up with a spirited bout of oral sex between David and Jonathan.
i think Solomon and his many concubines will be a good watch
Too damned long – I can’t watch a movie for more than 90 minutes. Didn’t Solomon have 700 concubines & 300 wives? Although I’m assuming he only had sex with his wives once, to conceive children…so he’s cut down to only 700 sex partner..yeah, i reiterate. That movie would be too damn long. And being a man of god, he’s probaby really boring in bed anyway.
I echo CybrgnX, “1st WHAT IS PORN???” Porn, like art, is in the eye of the beholder. I think it says more about the person making the definition than about the depiction. It says more about our attitudes about human sexuality and the human body than morality. Where is the line between art and porn? I think this is why most obscenity laws (at least in the USA) have been thrown out. Frankly, I find depictions of violence and bloodshed much more obscene than depictions of nudity and sexuality but, depictions of violence and bloodshed seem to be much more socially acceptably for some reason. Actually, I blame capitalism for pornography. If sex didn’t sell it wouldn’t be anywhere near the problem some people think it is.
The Porn Thing is another arm of the Xtian male’s tortured relationship with the female and society at large. In America we still can’t have a marriage equality act thanks to the strenuous efforts of organized religion. Many Christian women look with disdain on Feminism, and would choose to remain beholden to their husbands in front of the law. Here comes porn, an industry where there’s still billions to made and as a rule a female actress makes more than her male counterpart(s). Nevermind the moral turpitude of the act, for the Christian ego the porn actress represents nothing short of the anti-hearth, the complete perversion of his carefully constructed division of home resources.
Interesting point, paddy.
Paddy – have to add another thought. Isn’t sexuality the other stereotype of women? Yes, we are “home & hearth”, we’re “earth mothers”, nurturing, love nothing more than to bear children, clean dishes, and serve our husbands. We are also the perfect sex partner – always willing, driven to extasy by the mere THOUGHT of male genitalia….wouldn’t this put porn in a similar category as christian oppression and stereotyping of women? It’s the two fantasy ideals of women, having nothing to do with real humanity or individuality.
You are a dying breed among, ahem … Thumbs up!
:) You can say it – I’m not sensitive!!!! And thanks.
That’s an interesting argument, Janet. Good food for thought.
Appreciate the feedback….
I think people should check out Greta Christina’s blog, she has posted on this before. I don’t check her blog at work so I can’t grab the link now, but she had a good discussion on this as well.
I was surprised to find zero results on a search for the words “patriarchy” and “sexism” on a blog talking about pornography. First off, there is nothing inherently wrong with displaying your naked body in a sexual manner. Unfortunately, when this is done in our society, it is often done under the pressure of patriarchy, in turn supporting patriarchy, heteronormativity, and sexism. With that being said, the solution is not to punish those who are making porn or erotic art; the solution is in fighting patriarchy and sexism so that nudity can viewed in a healthy way, since sex in its essence, should and can be healthy.
Like walking naked on streets. Let the 70 and 80 yrs old staet first, out grand and great grant parents will surely agree. Let the fun begins.
Just don’t watch the porn that you think is patriarchal and sexist; obviously not all of it is. Doing that is much more likely to fix the problem than abstaining from watching porn in general.
And I disagree that porn is heteronormative. A lot more porn depicts gay sex than the percentage of the population would dictate. Admittedly, this is usually labeled “gay porn,” but then again, porn depicting no gay sex is often called “straight porn,” so it isn’t really singled out in that respect.
Well, from what I see, there’s a lot of lesbian porn in hetero-oriented porn… ;p
But yes, lots of gay (and by gay I mean male) porn out there.
EXCELLENT point.
There is fucking porn in the bible. The Song of Solomon is fucking erotica! And that not counting all the gore porn in the bible.
Interestingly, though I’m an atheist, I don’t look at porn, at least of the visual kind. Watching other people go at it is rather boring for me. I much more prefer erotic written stories. Maybe I’m secretly a woman and don’t know it.
Porn, like anything else, must be clearly defined before it can be discussed. This hasn’t happened here. I have seen everything from Playboy to rape and child molestation discussed as porn in these comments. I have friends who are convinced that pictures of scantily clad women are pornographic. Others are convinced that only completely nude women exhibiting their parts is porn. Even the courts were hard pressed to unambiguously define porn. It seems to me that porn is really in the mind of the beholder. As far as I am concerned, explicit graphical representations of human sexual activities are harmful in only one way–they distort reality and result in unrealistic expectations. I know I was very disappointed.
*snerk* “choke hold”
I love the unintentional innuendo.
I’ve done a lot of research on this recently, because the Australian government is proposing to censor the Internet here. Originally, it was planned to block everything from stuff unsuitable to 15 year olds up, but has since been scaled back dramatically. At any rate, in the early stages, there was a lot of talk about pornography and its assumed harmful effects, which had me doing my own research.
This is the best definition of pornography I’ve found:
http://libertyaddiction.blogspot.com/2008/07/what-is-pornography.html
“Pornography is communicative material produced with the key intention of causing sexual arousal in the targeted audience, and it is reasonable to expect the material to succeed in causing such arousal”
I have not been able to find any serious studies that link pornography with socially harmful behaviour. The only studies I’ve found that do claim such a link are obviously poorly set up. For example, finding someone who doesn’t regularly view pornography, putting them in a room with a couple of researches and then seeing if they are uncomfortable with their first exposure.
The biggest number study I have found is this one:
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-effects-of-pornography.html
It’s a little old now, but it shows a correlation between liberal attitudes towards sex and pornography and a decline in rape, while rape reporting increases.
This is the feminist position I agree with:
http://www.wendymcelroy.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.31
I think sex is a very important part of the human experience. I think all other parts of the human experience are actively observed and talked about. I think it is natural to want to observe how other humans approach sex and arousal. It is not a gender specific desire, but some of the themes may be different among genders.
Good pornography is where all participants are actively enjoying themselves. This can mean group sex acts, homosexual acts, bondage or other fetish acts, or indeed even some violence (spanking is what I’m particularly referring to with the last point). There is nothing inherently demeaning in any of it.
Where I think it does get into trouble is when it reinforces bad societal stereotypes. ‘All women are sluts’, ‘no really means yes’, ‘all black men are stupid and have big dicks’, etc. This can be a very hard line to define. Generally I think it is possible to judge when one of the participants is in over their head, and really has no desire to be there.
Ultimately, I think this kind of pornography is a symptom of problems that exist in society rather than the cause. Blocking such pornography is not going to stop their being misogynists or racists. That kind of material should decrease naturally if we deal with the underlying problem.
Greta Christina had an excellent lecture on building secular sexual ethics. She proposes some interesting questions that do deserve careful thought and exploration. For example, what happens in a monogamous relationship if one partner no longer wishes to engage in any sex, but the other does. The decision of one person affects both; is that fair?
http://vimeo.com/9259141
With regards to rape (I think child abuse is a subset of rape), there is a clear lack of consent. Both in the act, and in the release of the material into the public domain. This is what clearly makes it wrong. Bestiality traditionally falls into this category too, but I’m not sure how that can be sustained. It is certainly true that animals can’t consent, but then we don’t seek their consent when we eat them either. I lean towards thinking that it should only be a problem if there is harm being caused to the animal. Similarly, I also think that fictional stories, or images, even computer generated images, should be exempt from illegality. The point of the law is to protect people’s right to choose. That is why rape is rightly considered a terrible crime. Someone drawing a picture doesn’t harm anybody. Making the resultant image illegal is treading too close to thought crime for my liking.
Then our fear of paedophiles causes us to act irrationally. Almost all child abuse is likely to be done by someone known and trusted by the child. Our image of a child abuser is always the dirty man in a trench coat. This allows many female child abusers to escape without reprimand. We spend so much money and legal effort on the tiny fragment of cases that are done by strangers. The same is true for rape. Almost all unwanted sexual assault is done by someone known and trusted by the victim. I wish our priorities were better aligned with the facts.
Additionally, we do have an absurd definition of children. It is ridiculous to suggest that a seventeen year old is complete asexual the day before their birthday, and a fully mature sexual being the day after. Adolescents are clearly sexual beings, with developing bodies that they have questions about and are learning how to interact with others. Such a simplistic definition means that a sixteen year old who takes an erotic picture of themselves to give to an older partner would be considered a producer of child pornography, and the receiver as being in possession of same. That is clearly absurd, and potentially harmful to the future lives of both people.
I think where pornography gets dangerous is when it is the sole source of sex education for adolescents. Pornography is clearly fantasy, and if we restrict ourselves to commercially produced pornography, we also mean highly experienced athletes. Such pornography is not made to demonstrate love and intimacy between two people. In the first place it is filmed to give the audience a good view. This means uncomfortable positions, and doing things that come across as easy on camera, but take lots of preparation or subsequent clean up.
Consensual sex between two people should be based on a mutual agreement of what pleases each other. We have to communicate. Pornography cannot teach that. Only solid sex education, and parental discussions on intimacy and what it means to be a partner can deliver that. If parents feel uncomfortable discussing these things, there are plenty of high quality books that do so, and can be left with adolescents to read themselves.
Ubiquitous pornography is the state we’re living in now. Previously we had a state where no one had seen sex acts before they engaged in them. In both cases, no one knew what they were doing when they started having sex for themselves. Now people think they know what they’re doing, which is perhaps worse. Pornography is a fact of life now. Adolescents are going to see it. This makes it all the more reason for adults to grow the fuck up and stop being so juvenile about sex. If we want our children to have happy relationships, we have to make sure they understand what that means.
Thank you for the insight. I live in a country that recently enacted several ridiculous draconian anti-porn law that.
The laws basically authorize the police to arrest anybody carrying hentai, under the grounds of them viewing child porn. The authorities argued that such media promotes real sexual abuse, but have yet to produce any documents saying such. The groups who pushed for this law are comprised of deeply religious Catholic Conservatives, so you can imagine how they came about their assumptions.
The irony is that almost all the sex offenders here have never even seen an anime before.
What’s ridiculous is that the law can have you arrested for carrying a copy of Lolita, among other titles.
I thank you again for posting your well-researched view on the matter – your links will prove an invaluable resource for future discussions on this sensitive matter.
Good analysis.
Um…I produced it for 9 years. I’ve spoken about it at Purdue, Yale, other universities and dozens of churches. I’ve been on Nightline ABC debating Ron Jeremy about it (links to the footage are on my website).
Point? I can tell you from experience porn destroys lives. Go to the “about” page on my website and watch the video of me speaking at Mercy’s Cross and you’ll hear some examples.
Well, sounds like we have plenty of people here whose lives were not destroyed by porn. As we’ve said, it can happen, but it’s stupid to think that the 95% of men who look at porn have destroyed lives because of it.
Watch the video on my “about” page. Too much to write from my iPhone.
http://www.DonnyPauling.com/about/
Also watch the debate I had with Ron Jeremy and porn star Monique Alexander on Nightline ABC:
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Faceoff
(scroll down to where it says “Is America Addicted to Porn?”)
Oops…posted the wrong URL to my “about” page. It’s:
http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/about/
Porn enriches lives, thank you very much. You’re perfectly free to not watch porn, if that’s your preference, but you’ve no right to take it from those of us who want to watch it.
If you’d watched the video you wouldn’t have posted this. I’m all for freedom and free speech, which you’d know if you weren’t simply making assumptions and spewing brain farts on the world.
Why should I? You’re obviously just one more rabidl moralizing anti-porn wackaloon with no respect for any opinion besides your own.
Take your silly little moral crusade and stuff it.
“Take your silly little moral crusade and stuff it.”
…nice and slow, preferably ;)
*chuckles*
Lube?
Yep…quite the superior, intellectually advanced crowd here…that’s incredibly apparent…
“Yep…quite the superior, intellectually advanced crowd here…that’s incredibly apparent…”
Why, thank you for the adulation, Donny dear. You may carry my slippers now ;)
@WMDKitty
I’m straight, but somehow I can’t help but roflcopterskates at your reply XD
If you’ve debated Ron Jeremy about how Porn destroys lives, and he was arguing against you….
Doesn’t that kind of blow your argument out of the water? Ron Jeremy is a porn star, and he is saying his life isn’t destroyed by it. Thus making porn doesn’t destroy all lives.
Are some lives ruined by porn? Sure! Are some lives ruined by Christianity? Sure! Are some lives ruined by the construction industry (where I work) Sure!
Lives are ruined all the time. Other lives are enriched. It has more to do with your outlook on life, rather than the occupation you’re in.
Seeee!
Poor, poor, Ron Jeremy, his life was destroyed and he doesn’t even know it. If only he could realize that Magic Jesus can fix him.
Oh, Donny…get bent.
Revyloution – I don’t think the Ron Jeremy on this thread is THAT Ron Jeremy!
Donny, being a porn producer didn’t make you a lying scumbag.
All I have to say is that Asian chick in the picture is wearing too much cloths. :p
@Arved: Good grief; you certainly nailed it from my point of view.
@WMDKitty: Unintentional?
This discussion is very interesting to me simply because I feel so removed from it. I’m gay, and I watch porn with my boyfriend quite often — there are no issues of secrecy or trust involved. And I think that’s pretty common with gay men in general.
As far as exploitation goes, I really have no way of knowing. I can see a scenario where a young boy got kicked out of the house after coming out and ended up in the clutches of a manipulative producer or something. I’ve also heard the “gay-for-pay” stories, where straight guys who for whatever reason (maybe drugs?) are desperate for money and will do gay porn. But my hunch is that most of the guys do it because they want to — they certainly look convincing, and porn is not known for good acting. :)
But this is all irrelevant as far as the Christians go. With my viewing habits, I’m sure they’re more scandalized by the ‘gay’ part than the ‘porn’ part.
LOOK: Here’s the solution for him ok?
Don’t feel guilty when your body asks you to look at porn and/or to masturbate. Don’t say “NOOOOO It’s creeping back in!”… Smile and put it off comfortably in your mind… and when you feel like it, commit and just let yourself do it… Go for it, have fun, and do your best to let go of all of your negative feelings and THANK YOUR BODY.
Now, pay attention to feelings of “I don’t need to worry about this anymore” and over time, you will need to do it less and less, you just have to trust yourself, and trust your God that he is not trying to hurt you…
Great arguments on this thread, pro and con.
I think that sex is given unnatural attention by our culture (and many others). For example, European/puritans who came to the new world were overall very sexually repressed. Everything about sex was “sin” – according to the bible, the only perfect man came from a woman who did not become pregnant through sex. The underlying belief is that we are all sinful because we are conceived during the act of sex. This is so very, very sick. The first christian religion mandated (and still does) that “men of god”, priests, abstain from sex. I think the unhealthy emphasis on sexuality, and the view of sexuality as “sin”, starts to create deviant thoughts and behaviour, as well as obsession. Then we have the reaction – which is the same thing, in my mind, as oppression. It’s the OVER-emphasis on sexuality, such as in advertising, movies, music vids, etc. I think this reaction stems from religious puritanism. There is nothing wrong with sexuality, or nudity, or anything like that. But our world is so messed up sexually that even if we could stop the unhealthy and obsessive attitudes about sex from christianity & hollywood, it will take generations for us to normalize it. The damage religion has done to people is so deep – it’s like a cancer that obliterates everything it touches.
Porn might not make men into rapists, but it certainly can make them bad lovers:
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/11/01/make_love_like_a_porn_star_not/index.html
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/08/18/gen_porn/index.html
It’s my understanding that many ministers are addicted to porn. I think the guilt feeds the compulsion. In a fit of self promotion, I’ll say that I wrote about this last year at http://clergyguy.blogspot.com/2009/06/what-does-preacher-say-to-naked-lady.html
I’m surprised at some of the comments on this thread.
Porn is not just sex, it is a highly idealised and unrealistic, often violent and demeaning, depiction of sex from a patriarchal perspective – the vast majority of the time.
Exploitation in the porn industry is not just like exploitation in any other industry – forcing a person to sew buttons on cheap t-shirts is hardly comparable to forcing someone to have sex (i.e. raping them). Bodily autonomy/integrity, anyone?
When you watch a porn film, you can never be sure you’re not watching rape. This is reason alone not to watch it.
The majority of porn holds women up to be the main sexual object (to be leered at, fucked, whatever). This objectification hurts *all* women as it sends the message that women are sex objects for men’s consumption.
Many damaging stereotypes of female sexuality are regularly played out in porn: women are passive receptacles for dicks, women are sluts who want it all the time, no means yes, and so on. The idea that this has no effect on the watcher is frankly ridiculous.
Trends that begin in porn (shaved pubes on women, for example) filter into mainstream society and have a negative effect on women’s experience of their own sexuality (e.g. feeling they have to shave to be desirable).
If people do not like porn, or object to it from a feminist or other moral perspective, this does not mean they are prudes or on a ‘crusade’. It’s perfectly possible to love sex and object to the vast majority of porn. This sterotype of the buttoned-up prudish porn-hater is just utter bullshit.
It’s not possible to do a thorough enough analysis of how much porn affects rape, because the vast majority of rapes go unreported… There is much feminist literature on the subject though, which I would encourage everyone to seek out and read before they dismiss porn as harmless and just like any other form of entertainment.
A good starting point is http://www.thefword.org.uk – search ‘pornography’.
I’m not interested in getting into a feminist vs antifeminist flame war so won’t comment again on this thread, but just wanted to give a feminist point of view.
I like your comment. I’m still forming my opinion on this subject – I think porn may have it’s place, but you make excellent points.
One thing I loathe about the “feminist” view of porn is that it completely ignores gay porn. And to claim that one can’t be sure they’re not watching rape–really? How do you substantiate an implied claim that hetero porn is videotaped rape?
John Mayer recently said, in an interview with Playboy, that it’s his dream to produce porn. Since I’ve done so for many years I wrote him an open letter about what it’s like. If you’d like an education on the realities of porn without a bunch of Jesus stuff thrown in read this:
http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2010/03/01/dear-johncmayer-re-producing-porn/
Sexuality isn’t necessarily part of the female stereotype. Throughout most of christian/western history women have been obligated to be without sexual passions. It is the same in the Islamic world today. Men are stereotypically portrayed as beings driven by pure lust. Women, who have no desire for sex, are the ones who are supposed to keep the mens sexual urges under control by providing them a resistant outlet, thus relieving them while at the same time conditioning them to think of sex as unpleasant and something that no good person would ever inflict upon someone they care about.
The porn industry turns this stereotype on its head by making people believe that sex can be exciting, enjoyable, and that women actually want the sex. This allows men to believe that they would be successful if they tried to have sex outside of their marriage, and thus is bad.
As for what the perfect sexual woman would be in the puritanical mindset; it would be a woman who adamantly resisted sex, but was unable to successfully fight back. Then when the man succeeded in penetrating her she would enjoy it immensely but feel rather guilty about it afterward. You can see this portrayed in many cheesy romance novels as well. Basic she doesn’t want him, he pushes, she breaks and then gives herself to only him.
This is actually the threat to women. Pornography depicts a world in which women desire sex openly. Puritanism depicts a world in which women actually want sex, but deny it vigorously. This is where the danger of rape becomes the most obvious. What happens when I desire a woman and she says no? In a sexually open world I realize she doesn’t want it and I find another woman who will be more receptive. In a sexually closed world I believe that she simply means I need to convince her more. The more she objects the more I believe I just have to work harder for it. Puritanical sexual moors make it so some men have difficulty understanding that no really means no. Now of course I am not blaming women for saying no. Rather I am saying that we should encourage a society that mitigates the dangers.
I have no connection to the porn industry (other than viewing some of its product) so I don’t know how corrupt and coercive it is. The problem to me seems that every argument against porn has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual pornography. It all seems focused on the exploitative nature of the industry. So, shouldn’t the fix to this be to have better regulation on the industry? When child labor is used to make sneakers we don’t ban shoes, we regulate the industry to preserve the rights of the children.
Our arguments must be centered around pornography itself. So, does porn actually depict an unwholesome and undesirable sexual universe? The main thing that porn depicts is women who desire sex, or as earthling put it “women are sluts who want it all the time”. The argument given against this is that it objectifies women and makes them nothing more than sexual objects. This would be true if porn was ones only way of viewing women. Say for instance I watch one video where a woman is the CEO of a company and must find some way to steer her company through an economic downturn and she is successful. I will be shown here that women are smart, intelligent, good at leadership, level headed, etc. The next video I am shown is of a woman who is sitting at home lonely when the mailman shows up and they have kinky sex on the living room floor. From this I will be shown that women want sex, they are just waiting around for a man to give it to them, and they don’t care who it is that fucks them. Does this mean that I believe all women possess all of these traits or does it mean that I believe there is more than one type of woman in the world? Why don’t you argue this from the male perspective? The man in the first video was greedy and corrupt but ultimately stupid. The man in the second video was aggressive, and physically domineering. Does this meant that I believe all men possess all these traits or that there is more than one type of man in the world? The problem is that you are reducing people to complete stereotypes without realizing that everyone has the ability to realize that there is more than one type of person in the world. Further, porn can actually liberate some women to feel okay with their sexual desires. Puritanical society says that any woman who wants sex is a slut. The openly sexual world says that some women want sex, and no one looks down on them for this. Look at playboy for instance, those women are respected and are able to enjoy being sexual without stigma. By saying that porn is degrading to women because it shows them wanting sex is to tell all women who want sex that they are a degraded form of woman.
My final words will be that porn has existed since the dawn of the human race. They have found pornographic cave drawings all over the world. Every mythology involves descriptions and depictions of sexual activity. Maybe if we stop fighting so hard against our natural desires we can learn how to incorporate them in our society in a healthy way.
D’n – hmmmmmm – well thought-out argument – will think on this.
Spot on Yabo! It seems religion is much more of an instigator for rape than porn ever was.
I work at a porn company. The biggest supplier on the web actually. And I’m female.
There are extremely strict rules in place to keep out anything that is child/rape/bestiality related. I think some people just see what they can get on bit torrent and assume that’s what’s being sold.
It isn’t.