by VorJack
Via Friendly Atheist, I see that Jim Henderson has a new site: ChurchRater. Henderson is that man who bought (and maybe still owns) Hemant Mehta’s immortal soul, and his site is a place for “mystery worshipers” to rate their experiences at local churches. It is, in fact, a Consumer Reports or “Angie’s List” for the spirit.
And it’s not the first such site. According to an article at the Seattle Times, there are a number of such sites popping up. A British site, Ship of Fools, has been around since 1998, with a precursor back in 1977. While I haven’t surveyed all the sites, it seems like Henderson’s attempts to attract non-Christians to act as mystery reviewers may be what separates him from the rest.
This makes sense given Henderson’s other works, like his book Evangelism without Additives, which led to Doable Evangelism. Doable Evangelism seems to place the emphasis less on the message and more on establishing human contact. Henderson seems to be honestly attempting to “re-brand” Evangelical Christianity and find ways to reach out to the non-Christian.
I’m ambivalent about a lot of this. On one hand, I like that there is a movement to make American Evangelism less preachy and more human. Maybe this will mean a move away from the tracts on the windshield, the sinner’s prayer on a card in the wallet, the bullet-point streamlined “Roman’s Road” guide to salvation. If American Evangelicals become less overbearing, then is makes life more pleasant for everyone.
On the other hand, all of this seems to be about cleaning up the delivery while leaving the message the same. In fact, many of the techniques I hear from the Doable Evangelism side are things designed to work regardless of what the message is.
The ChurchRater site and Doable Evangelism want to make the Evangelical experience more natural and attractive, but at the heart it’s still the same message. If the message isn’t packing them in the way it used too, then perhaps its time to take another look at the message, rather than changing the delivery.
You can change the product or the marketing around it. Changing the product is usually more expensive.
They don’t see anything wrong with the product, only with the people selling it. I wonder if any churches are trying stuff like other businesses do. There are so many life coach business programs around that are geared to make company people more confident and hopefully successful. Is no one trying to capitalize on the desperation of church pastors here? Pastor Paintball War? See which group God really does want to win…
*giggles, flashbacks to Good Omens, giggles some more*
Dress the donkey up all you want. No amount of ‘love-bombing lite’ is going to solve the epistemological dilemmas that biblicists face. In the marketplace of ideas, Evangelicism has serious problems with it’s product because it’s out of sync with reality.
Hi there… My name is Matt Casper, and I am one of ChurchRater’s founders. I am also an atheist who wrote a book with Jim Henderson (Jim & Casper Go to Church). And while Jim doesn’t own my soul, I do rent it to him on occasion. :)
For me, one point of ChurchRater (and my working with Jim in general) is simple: help churches and Christians better follow Jesus’ example. I know that while I may not believe in gods or anything like that, Christianity is the religion of choice for around 80% of my fellow Americans. And, as a reasonable person, I know that I can not change that.
But asking Christians to simply follow the teachings of Jesus is a rather sweet gig. Luckily, almost all of what he said was about “doing unto others,” the basic precept of all faiths and, IMO, the reason human beings have proliferated. And talking about the teachings of Jesus makes for a great approach to connecting with people who think differently than myself. Which is another point of ChurchRater: getting people to connect.
So while some churches get upset they’re being rated like a restaurant or a movie, that–I think–is only the conversation starter. And conversation is a good thing as it helps connect, and connections help make living with our differences an easier, healthier undertaking.
Matt
“But asking Christians to simply follow the teachings of Jesus is a rather sweet gig. Luckily, almost all of what he said was about “doing unto others,””
Evidence please. Let’s start with the evidence that Jesus “said” anything. Then, how about the evidence for the “example” he set?
Also, what you are basically doing here is trying to pursuade Christians toward a kinder gentler brand of dellusion. Christians can’t agree among themselves about the meaning of Jesus’ alleged words, what on earth makes you think they will listen to an avowed atheists interpretations or “True Christianity?”
In my opinion your efforts could be better used to try to persuade them god is imaginary.
It would be swell if we could get Christians to actually follow the New Testament, with all it’s pacifism and feeding people (socialism!), but aren’t you afraid these churches will find out you’re an atheist?
Happy for them to know… many Christians want to hear what outsiders think (and it makes sense as they are commissioned in their bible to make disciples of us all). So far as your other thought, I often ask Christians here in the U.S. how they reconcile their faith with capitalism. Based on the words attributed to Jesus in the bible, they appear to be mutually exclusive.
“Which is another point of ChurchRater: getting people to connect.”
With what?
Bill: I have only found trying to convince people their “god is imaginary” to be a losing proposition (after all, I don’t inhabit each person’s imagination nor mind, so I really have no say). And that when it comes to belief in supernatural deities, evidence is irrelevant–and the absence of evidence isn’t proof of anything either. But faith is as real to many people’s minds as love is to even more minds.
Christians happen to be the majority in my nation, and the majority of what Jesus said (rather, the majority of the words attributed to the man in the bible written by fallible men with their own polemics) is really constructive.
So I am playing the hand that has been dealt.
DarkMatter: Connect with each other. I think being more connected with others reduces conflict, which is good for all of us.
Matt
“I have only found trying to convince people their “god is imaginary” to be a losing proposition ”
Funny because almost everyone here once believed in god – now don’t – and in many cases were convinced by logic, lack of evidence, and argument from non-believers. It is difficult. That doesn’t make it a “losing proposition.” Just makes it harder than hoping for a kinder gentler delusion.
“And that when it comes to belief in supernatural deities, evidence is irrelevant”
Really? So it’s rational behavior to believe in supernatural entities for which there is no evidence? Ghosts – dragons – demons – flying spaghetti monsters etc… Do you really apply this logic in your life?
“and the absence of evidence isn’t proof of anything either. ”
This depends on how you use the word “proof.” The lack of evidence for something is actually excellent evidence that thing does not exist. If by “proof” you mean 100% certainty, then no it’s not proof. But it certainly gets us “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
” the majority of what Jesus said (rather, the majority of the words attributed to the man in the bible written by fallible men with their own polemics) is really constructive.”
Again, please enlighten us as to how you know what it is the jesus “said.” Since you apparently have the formula for “True Christianity” please fill us in on how you arrived there.
If the “words attributed to the man in the bible” are not your source, I can’t imagine what is.
We’re talking apples and oranges here, Bill. I am not interested in trying to prove/disprove god (though the lowercase spelling belies my belief) because I have found that only entrenches and creates cognitive dissonance. Visit our site and you’ll see it’s about dialog and not debate.
I have found my dialogs with Christians to be more enjoyable (and, in the back of my mind, maybe the right word is “effective”) when I simply ask why if Jesus said X in the bible they hold to be true so many churches/Christians do Y. And it doesn’t matter if I do or don’t think the bible is true, really; it’s their rulebook–I’m just reading it.
I am glad to hear you disagree with my “absence of evidence not being proof” thought. Because that means I have may have finally found a buyer for my tiger-repelling pencil. I have been carrying it for more than 10 years now; in all that time, not one single tiger. ;)
Matt
“We’re talking apples and oranges here, Bill. I am not interested in trying to prove/disprove god (though the lowercase spelling belies my belief) because I have found that only entrenches and creates cognitive dissonance. Visit our site and you’ll see it’s about dialog and not debate.”
Are you profiting? Guess not seeing your presence here.
“creates cognitive dissonance.”
Cognitive dissonance is a good thing. It’s what we should strive to create in believers.
“And it doesn’t matter if I do or don’t think the bible is true, really; it’s their rulebook–I’m just reading it.”
If what you are trying to do is convince them that your reading of a made up book is better than their reading of a made up book, you are arguing about nothing. There is no truth in that debate or “discussion” as you put it. You’re both making things up to try to reach a conclusion. You may as well both have a debate about the rules of Calvin Ball.
I note you still haven’t answered my question about how you know what Jesus really said.
“I am glad to hear you disagree with my “absence of evidence not being proof” thought. Because that means I have may have finally found a buyer for my tiger-repelling pencil. I have been carrying it for more than 10 years now; in all that time, not one single tiger. ;)”
Well this is utter bullshit. I really hope the little smiley face is intended to show that you don’t actually buy this crap. Otherwise perhaps we can arrange a test of your pencil in the cage of a hungry tiger.
Howdy Bill.. I don’t know what Jesus really said. And anyone who says they do must be at least 2000 years old.
So what we’ve got is that Christians believe what’s in the bible and so I use that as a starting point for dialog. Because I believe if one is really following the Jesus in the latest release of the bible, then one has chosen a very, very difficult row to hoe. They should give all their money to the poor, put the needs of others before themselves, and judge not… I am glad I am not a Christian as I think to do it right would simply be too much work.
My tiger-repelling pencil was a joke. Tone is always so hard online/in emails. I apologize for ruffling feathers; it was not my intent. Nor is my intent to prove anyone wrong: not you, not Christians, not even Scientologists. (nudge/wink/smilicon)
DarkMatter: am I profiting? From ChurchRater? Not yet, but that is my hope: to make a living doing something I enjoy and do well–dialoging with others.
Matt
So basically you are trying to use a book of fairy tails to try to deceive a group of people in to acting in a way that conforms with your world view.
Interesting.
That’s pretty far afield of what he described.
I find this approach more constructive is all, easier to rise above destructive conversations and name-calling. That’ll do it for me on this thread, Bill. Thanks.
“That’s pretty far afield of what he described”
It’s a summary, but a fair summary.
“DarkMatter: am I profiting? From ChurchRater? Not yet, but that is my hope: to make a living doing something I enjoy and do well–dialoging with others.”
To profit from the “square” people. Yea, you need to also be a convincing “talker”.
Nothing so cynical as typing people as square and seeking to profit based on that. It’s just enjoyable. Convincing? I don’t know. Engaging and transparent? I hope so.
You are smarter than that, hence your reply.
One more thing: the rules of Calvin Ball are simple: you play 4 innings backwards, have to tag each hoop twice, jump across the bases in French, and Calvin always wins.
“DarkMatter: Connect with each other. I think being more connected with others reduces conflict, which is good for all of us.”
Expound the lack with yours, I am interested.
I don’t follow…? What lack with mine…? It may be there, I just don’t quite know what you’re saying…?
I prefer the church to be as horrible as possible. Better results in the long run (for us, at least).