I’m curious what our gay readers think about organizations like Exodus International. Here is what they say about themselves:
Exodus is a nonprofit, interdenominational Christian organization promoting the message ofFreedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ.
Within both the Christian and secular communities, Exodus has challenged those who respond to homosexuals with ignorance and fear, and those who uphold homosexuality as a valid orientation. These extremes fail to convey the fullness of redemption found in Jesus Christ, a gift which is available to all who commit their life and their sexuality to Him.
Do you find Exodus International offensive? Or do you think they serve a good purpose for people who want to try and repress their homosexuality?
People who want to suppress their homosexuality need a psychiatrist, not freaks who need a psychiatrist themselves.
That.
Seconded.
My feelings exactly.
They are basically saying that they’ll “save” you from yourself so that you can be :free” (translation: more like them). I think that is insulting no matter what the topic is.
I’ve definitely heard of people coming out of the closet and being gay, but have not heard of the opposite situation where a gay person would suddenly admit he or she was straight. I mean, people get confused or experiment sometimes, but they generally figure it out. Have these changes ever come as the result of a ministry???
As I see it,
From the Christian viewpoint, Homosexuality HAS to be a choice. If Homosexuals were born that way, and can not change and are untreatable, then Christianity would be a “bad” religion.
A religion that separates families, a religion that condemns innocent people to death, and causes mental anguish. If Christians admit they are wrong about this issue, then Jesus got a lot of forgiving to do. Go to Marriagetrial.com and for the first time in US history you will see homophobia on trial and show the vicious hatred of homosexuality by Christians.
I can say, as it stands with few exceptions:
Christianity is Evil
Christiantiy separates families, causes suffering, abuses children,
With all the vicious hatred there is in Christiandom, I can’t take exception to the few gay friendly churches there are. Because these exceptions only want to be like all other Christian Churches and want standing in the community of Christandom.
Sure I’m making a broad accusation.
Christianity is Evil. I accuse Christianity of many crimes upon Humanity.
Please prove me wrong
I view it like I would view an organization that promoted getting surgery to look white because god only loves Caucasians.
Oooo, I like that one.
A god who demands you “commit your sexuality to him” it is not a god I would worship.
This group? Disgusting. More than possibly evil.
’nuff said.
I’ve committed my sexuality to my wife. Does that mean that she’s god? Because that would explain a LOT.
I like where you’re going with this. ;)
As she should be ;p
Yep, I’ve read the OT and a lot of it seems fairly similar …
What did you see, a female role?
The fact that they view “those who uphold homosexuality as a valid orientation” as being “extreme” just shows how extreme they are.
Homophobia wrapped in a thin veneer of Jeebus Love ™ is still homophobia.
Amen to that brother! :)
When they talk about setting up a continuum and the rational gays are normal human beings is one of the far sides all you have is a scale of self-hate.
The issue with this is that christians have never (in my mind at least) been able to come up with why being gay is wrong, other than “the bible tells us so.” Stealing, lying, cheating, killing, we all know these things are wrong in every culture, in every religion and no religion. We know the harm these behaviors cause. What harm does gayness cause?
@Siberia,
I’m not justifying them, but if there was/is a god that is perfectly good, wouldn’t he expect certain moral behavior in regards to our sexuality, like don’t cheat on your partner, no incest, etc?
I think they’re just misguided.
Fregas
I don’t see how that’s even possible for a perfect (omniomni) god. I mean, s/he/it knows everything. S/he/it knows whether or not someone will do something, and why. It’s pointless for an omniomni god to demand behavior because s/he/it already knows how that person will behave.
But thinking of a god who is not omniomni: why would s/he/it care? And why, pray tell, would I worship it?
I can see a god – if such a creature could be called ‘god’ – who would demand certain behaviors; but that does not mean it’s worthy of worship. And frankly, the only behavior I’d absolutely, in every circumstance, consider immoral is rape and cheating, because those actively involve hurting another person (though, frankly, I don’t think cheating’s all that terrible either, as to be ‘immoral’ – simply because I’m not – personally – convinced monogamy is all that special. I’d say cheating is immoral much like lying is immoral – and only as far as that). I don’t consider incest particularly immoral in a time where birth control is relatively easy, given consent from both parties (see: not rape).
I don’t know. The idea of a micromanager god is a bit ludicrous to me.
I won’t argue about the freewill vs. god’s foreknowledge issue…theologians have been debating that for centuries, literally.
I agree that a perfect God would not need/want to be worshiped. But he/she/it might prefer moral behavior the same way a very good person might prefer other people to be kind and hate cruelty.
I believe adultery is wrong, regardless of god’s existence, in most cases. Some couples successfully have an “open marriage” but this is rare in both the gay and straight communities. Usually jealously and drama ensues when partners swap out regularly. If your partner is NOT into open marriage, and you cheat, its definitely wrong IMHO, because of the massive emotional pain and suffering you inflict on them, the children if there any and so forth.
I don’t like the idea of the micromanager god either. I don’t believe “god has a plan for your life.” I’m just talking hypothetically, a “good god” whatever that would mean, would prefer certain behavior. They wouldn’t necessarily have to scrutinize and attempt to control your every move. In fact, I think the opposite is true.
No incest? Why is incest morally reprobable?
Incest apologists in a thread about homosexuality only feeds the anti-gay movement.
I have met Alan Chambers, Exodus’s Head Honcho, a few times through various GLBT advocacy pushes, and he seems like a nice enough guy. He is polite, respectful, and willing to have a civil debate. He actually came to apologize to my campus’s GLBT group and said he would have never accepted the engagement if he knew it would disrupt the PRIDE Week schedule of events on campus.
All that said, It is sad to see those type of people delude themselves into thinking that a GLBT orientation is something to be ashamed of or some kind of handicap. Luckily many of the “studies” that ex-gay groups use as evidence have been found to be mistaken or frauds. What ever causes homosexuality, a little bit of the old time religion isn’t going to fix it. Groups like Exodus just cause more shame and revulsion of GLBT people than they do “helping people”.
It’s definitely offensive, but mainly because the way they “cure” homosexuality is through gender reeducation. Men are encouraged to play sports, women are encouraged to sew, etc. Could anything be more irrelevant?
Pray away the gay? No way!
Who knew it was that easy!
HELLO bumper sticker!
Tourists: It’s unlikely to happen spontaneously, because coming out for many means drawing a lot of flak to stand up and be what you are. It’s tends to be a process that makes people stronger and more confident in the “right”-ness of their orientation. For that reason alone, I think the people who go on to question whether that step was right, and whether they should try to “de-gay” themselves are going to be in a minority.
Another issue is that it’s easy to be out while you’re in a supportive atmosphere. If that changes, for whatever reason, perhaps you move away or lose touch with a group of friends, or just get a bit older and have a different perspective on things, you can become susceptible to the voices telling you that being gay is wrong or evil.
But I reckon the biggest one is the fact that gay people sometimes convert to christianity. I know that’s hard to imagine since this community is dedicated to the opposite effect, but christian evangelism can be quite persuasive if you don’t look to closely at the evidence. And moderate christianity is quite accepting of gay people – love the sinner, hate the sin and all that. But sooner or later they’ll come across the fact that the bible is pretty unequivocal about the issue. By this time the convert is probably sold on the idea of redemption and the love of christ, and there’s a kind of emotional manipulation involved – you are explicitly rejecting christ to continue sinning just because it feels nice for you – so the convert who gives up their homosexuality is no different from the convert who gives up embezzling, or cheating on their spouse, or doing drugs.
I guess you can pick up my opinion on this matter. I don’t really have strong feelings on the group itself, because they seem pretty tolerant, and aren’t doing anything to anyone who doesn’t want it. It is part of the arm of christianity that I despise, though, that passive-aggressively manipulates people into hating themselves, while wringing their hands and pretending it’s not them, they’d be perfectly happy with it, it’s just what the bible says.
I’m going to place my (gay) thought here, as it basically echoes what Confused is saying.
It seems to me that it’s just an extension of the whole fall/redemption fallacy. The only gay people who want to be fixed are ones who have been convinced that they are broken. First they sell you the sickness, then they sell you the cure; the combination couldn’t be worse.
I uphold the right of any individual to ‘choose’ his or her path. If a gay person does not want to have gay sex, for any reason, then they should be able to choose that without condemnation. What I object to is presenting natural sexual impulses as broken and sinful.
And it’s been pretty well-established that these programs are woefully ineffective at best, harmful at worst.
What you say reminds you of the wierd experience of watching Tiger Woods talking about the “treatment” he is recieving to cure his sexual infidelity. This is a young guy who spends long periods on the road, and has bikini models throwing themselves at him. If he wasn´t sleeping with them I´d be worried for him. One can only wonder what the French and Italians make of it all.
It’s none of their business what anyone else does or does not do, as long as they aren’t involved, and as long as it’s not a crime (of course, the religious idiots would make it a crime (again), if they could). They should worry about their own salvation.
I’m a gay man and I find the group to be the epitome of dark ages thinking. They use fear of some “god” to force their members to be free of something that is quite natural. I dislike the group immensly. But I see how they’re able to weasel their way into people’s lives. It’s hard to be gay. It’s hard to find relationships. It’s not an easy life. And just like straight people, sometimes you just never meet the right person. But that doesnt mean we should turn to fear and self-hatred to shun something that you cant change. It’s like trying to change your eye color becuase the eye-color you have is considered an “abomination.”
These guys remind me of PFOX, http://www.pfox.org, warning, you will have to bathe after reading about them. We were asked to hand out flyers for them with report cards at a PUBLIC high school. Disgusting. I threw them in the recycling bin.
What is the issue wit the xtians?
The description above talks about “FREEDOM from homosexuality,” as if homosexuality itself is what’s keeping us (us meaning people like me; gay non-believers) from reaching our true potential as human beings. What we need to be freed from are the biases of society and religion. DCtouristsANDlocals hits the nail on the head. Exodus’ definition of “freedom” has nothing to do with us reaching our full potential as human beings. Their version of “freedom” is linked to conformity and supression; a kind of “freedom” no sane person would desire.
Exodus claims to be different from those who “respond to homosexuality with ignorance and fear,” and yet they exhibit both. Anyone who speaks of homosexuality as a disease, malignancy, or something to be cured or fixed doesn’t understand the nature of sexual orientation. And their desire to cure homosexuals is fueled by the fear that maybe people ARE created homosexual (by God or not) and maybe homosexuality is every bit as normal as other sexual orientations.
“Exodus is a nonprofit, interdenominational Christian organization promoting the message of Freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ.”
I can’t find the demonstration of the power of jesus on the website. Maybe it’s hidden somewhere.
You have to be able to cast 4th level Prayers, and have your holy symbol and any required material components.
*snerk* Or you have to be a Paladin….
And nobody should expect you.
As a former Cleric of Pelor, I find that very offensive! In any case, its 8th level spells to cure gayness, and the homo has to pass their saving throw versus guilt…
These imbeciles only reinforce the anti-gay bigotry that leads many young gays and lesbians to suicide or other self-destructive behaviors. They are a scourge–I’m sure they’re pleasant as cherry pie, but their “message” is as venomous and dangerous as a cobra.
They’re lying charlatans pushing a “treatment” for something that is not a problem. The “therapy” they push has been denounced as ineffective and potentially harmful by the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the AMA and every other professional group. No reputable practitioner will even suggest so-called “reparative therapy”. It demands gay people repress who and what they are, and live their lives without love, intimacy and affection in order to please the personal bigotries of others. The techniques used involve emotional, spiritual and even physical abuse.
In short, I abhor it and wish it could be banned.
i agree with roger and everyone else above that whether or not they have “nice” intentions (helping people by providing support and ridding the world of hatred looks really nice on paper! etc), they’re basically the same as nazis in my book. if they really cared about ridding the world of homophobia, they’d be interested in helping people accept whatever sexuality they feel steered toward, and not in trying to steer people one way or another. i really, really enjoyed watching rachael maddow hand the leader his ass back on her show a few months ago. in fact, it was on that show she discussed the implication that his books and teachings have had a pretty solid influence on the recent laws in Uganda regarding killing homosexuals, if i’m not mistaken. i believe the GLBTQ community has a right, and in fact, an obligation, to fight against nonsense like this.
This seems like the “intelligent design” version of conversion therapy. Dressed up in prettier language, it still says “If you’re gay, you’re evil.”
This group, like other religous groups, serves to perpetuate within society its willfully ignorant religious beliefs. Christians, Muslims, Scientologists, Mormons, and a boatload of others are always trying to proselytize and/or force the rest of us to abide by their moral codes of conduct. Most religious people find it impossible to live and let live. They cannot resist the urge to conquer the world.
Exodus International is particularly bad because they not only seek to brainwash individuals whom they see as being defective, but they also fail to understand how their very existence advances and facilitates the homophobia they claim to be against.
I can’t even find words to express how weary I’ve become of religious people who insist on injecting their poison into our political, medical, educational, social support and scientific research systems. I’m starting to think aggressive atheism might be the only way to stop the insanity and start making headway in the other direction.
Imagine the holy crap which would be unleashed if atheists built huge auditoriums across the land and held massive thrice-weekly rallies tooled to attract the youth of our nations. Imagine going door to door to spread the truth and seek out new non-believers to join our ranks. Imagine starting after school clubs and organizing college campus activities to spread the seeds of free thinking among students and young adults everywhere.
I’d love to see multitudes of ads on television and plastered on billboards everywhere exposing the lies and fallacies of all the different faiths, extolling the virtues of thinking for one’s self, and proclaiming the peace which can be found by finding freedom from the shame, guilt, fear and control imposed by religious beliefs. It would be hilarious to see the faithful scramble in response.
Imagine how the religious leaders and their faithful would howl if intellectual atheists established Freethought International, a massive nonprofit, cross-political atheistic organization promoting the message of Freedom from Slavery to the Myths of Jesus Christ, Roman Catholicism, and Islamicism Through the Power of The Human Mind. Counseling and reeducation programs could be provided to those seeking to shed their faith.
I’m quite certain, however, if atheists began behaving like the religous do, violence would ensue. Don’t be fooled. Tolerance is not what religion is all about.
You are me.
I feel like I would dislike them less if a) their ‘therapy’ wasn’t inherently Christian and b) they didn’t advertise to the gay community as a whole. I figure if people actually want to suppress their sexuality, for whatever reason, then they can go ahead and do so; I don’t think they’d be as happy as if they were able to live openly and comfortably as they are, but perhaps there are situations where that is simply not an option. However, I don’t like the fact that people who have no interest in ‘de-gaying’ themselves are told that they should – and this is such an inevitable consequence of the Christian mission Exodus is trying to accomplish that the very best feeling I can muster about it is a kind of cautious neutrality.
Would you be so cautiously neutral if they were offering to ‘de-straight’ people? How about if they were offering to ‘de-rationalize’ people, or ‘de-blonde’ or ‘de-brunette’ them?
The whole thing is an effort to de-rationalize.
Tabbie, while I do understand what you’re getting at there, if someone came up with a system could permanently “de-brunette” or “de-blonde” people, they’d be rolling in cash. Hair dye is expensive! :D
If people actually wanted to do those things, sure (though again, the Christian message and implication of something being ‘wrong’ would still bother me).
Why do you think it would matter to me whether they were offering to ‘de-straight’ rather than ‘de-gay’? I hope I didn’t give you the impression that I’m some kind of bigot or Exodus supporter, because I’m really not (promise!). I’m just… overly neutral about some things, where other people have strong feelings about it. I’m sorry if I offended you.
I was not offended. I was a bit worried that something as awful as what these people are doing can garner no more than neutrality in someone who otherwise seems quite sensible. I worry what is next on their agenda if they fail to “cure” enough gays. How many people will look the other way?
Maybe someone should introduce them to the catholic church?
An Unholy Union in the making. I wonder what their lovechild will look like.
It seems to me Exodus is a retardation of the onward march of knowledge. Where would we be if having dark skin still meant you bore the mark of Cain and were less worthy than your light-skinned neighbor? Perhaps one day we will look back at this time in history and say, “Remember the days when being gay was wrong (i.e. a ‘sin’)? Boy, was our thinking backwards! I’m so glad we progressed past that.”
People who cope with self-hatred by trying to repress their homosexuality, thus lying to themselves and potentially also hurting other people and lying to other people, need a qualified psychologist, not a crank who will fill their heads with more self-hatred and more internalised-homophobia. Also, you may wan to try to repress you sexuality, but wishful thinking doesn’t make it happen.
Also, there’s the fact that all conversion therapies were scientifically proven not to work.
Seriously, there’s no universe in which you could say that what Exodus and similar groups do is good.
For heterosexual people who don’t get it, imagine yourself trying to convert to gayness, because sombody tells you being heterosexual is evil, harmful, and you will totes end up becoming a sexual predator. Yeah, not so much.
Also, Exodus *may* claim they hate the sin, love the sinner, but let me point out that they had their grubby homophobic fingers in the Uganda anti-gay law pie:
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/01/duplicity_on_ugandan_anti-gay.php
A pretty clear case of downright evil.
Fundietards use some elaborate mental gymnastics to justify to themselves their malicious lies that it is evil to be gay.
First it is necessary for them to deny the well known fact that homosexuality occurs spontaneously in a relatively stable percentage of individuals across hundreds of animal species, including humans. In order to feel good about themselves while condemning homos they must construct an elaborate set of hoaxes designed to assist them in denying reality and locking out any chance that any facts of the matter might seep in.
A major keystone of fundie self deception is their obviously prejudicial lie that homosexuality can be cured. This claim is obviously false without even being examined, because in order for homosexuality to be curable it would have to be a problem in the first place. It is not a problem, it is a personal attribute like being left handed, or having blond hair.
But even if we consent to enter into the world of make believe lunacy to see what the Jeebustards are up to, it is quickly evident that their preposterous claims of curing homosexuals rest upon a prior lie – a false definition of homosexuality.
To the microscopic Fundie brain, a person is not gay unless they engage in same sex intimate activity. This would be similar to suggesting that a brand new automobile does not become a car until someone drives it, or that the Bible is not full of idiotic drivel until someone reads it.
In reality homosexuality is a state of being, an identifiable personal attribute found not only in sexually active persons, but also in people who have never had sex of any kind. A person is homosexual if they are primarily or exclusively attracted to members of the same gender in romantic and sexual ways. I can assure everyone reading this message that there were many years when I were a wee lad when I was simultaneously a homosexual and a virgin. I knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that I waas a homo and yet I had never, you know, done it. Or that.
If the reader will be kind enough to think back to their own youth, we expect they will recall that gradually, over perhaps a short or long period of time, they began to realize that they were experiencing sexual attractions to other persons. We are certain that the persons reading this message do not recall ever making a decision to be attracted to males or attracted to females, or in varying degrees to both.
Sexual urges arise spontaneously in all animal species that have survived. All humans develop sexual urges and the desire to be romantically involved with other humans without ever making a conscious decision or taking a deliberate action to bring about such feelings. In persons who are homosexual when these feelings begin to reach their attention they are invariably surprised to learn that they have a minority sexual orientation. Soon afterward they are also deeply disappointed to learn that their world is full of assholes like Jeebustards who are just waiting for a chance to harass, belittle, demean, slander, campaign against, lie about, and often physically assault them – for Jeebus, of course, or in other parts of the world for some other equally fictitious invisible friend.
But the Jeebustards insist that gay people choose to be gay by seeking to redefine homosexuality as the practice of having gay sex.
This false definition of what it means to be gay sets the stage for moronic and intentionally deceptive dog and pony shows like the ones conducted by a so called ex-gay group funded by ultra right wing Jeebustard political organizations. They parade around unfortunate people they have loaded up with so much guilt and self loathing that in order to stop feeling badly about themselves they consent to stop having sex with same gender partners. With their handy false definition of homosexuality as “doing it” hidden like crossed fingers behind their backs they now parade these unfortunate people as being cured of homosexuality simply because they no longer have gay sex.
Using their type of false thinking our 2005 Toyota Prius which I parked in our garage is no longer a car because nobody is driving it. But when I next get in it and boot up the computers it will be a car again as soon as it moves.
I just want to say that I love this comment above and I don’t care if it’s two weeks too late.
I think they’re a horrible organization whose treatments will only result in emotional scars for their unfortunate patients. They are an abomination.
And that’s just paraphrasing their OWN former counselors when they publicly apologized for putting people through hell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDiYeJ_bsQo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDn7cEgxvtg
I’ve been reading some of the links the commenters have been submitting and they all make me sick to my stomach. These people act like it is a cognitive choice. Being homosexual is as normal and natural as people having different skin colors or other genetic features. But the psychotic, funie, anti-science community continues to spew their hate in the name of a god…but why? Just so they can feel all warm and fuzzy inside because their religion makes them (or so they think) better than everyone else?!?!!? Ugh I’m sorry for the rant, it’s just irritating. BTW I’m a strait woman.
Exodus International?
More like EVIL International!
Either way it sounds like an airport I’d rather not visit.
Ironically, googling EVIL International led to another group of crazies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFEMyABYRB8
That a business can flourish based on the notion of seeking freedom from a condition “through the power” of a person who notably lacked an opinion on that very condition is a sad commentary on the state of humanity.
I do take offense at these types of organizations. Why should I change myself just to conform to your ideals? Last year I went to a talk by an ex-ex-gay man at my university. He told us that one of the first things they tell you when you get in the program is that you will never be completely straight and that the most you can hope for is that you can live a more “normal” life by re-enforcing gender roles. You might even marry a women. Talk about false advertising. Also, he spoke about the different treatment between men and women at these things. It seems very clear that women are not and never really were the target of these organizations.
I am pissed off with these christians who won’t leave them alone. These christians should be charged with civil harassment.
Two of the original founders of Exodus (or maybe it was ~the~ two original founders… I forget) fell in love with each other, divorced their wives, and married each other (or the equivalent at the time). They then gave talks about why Exodus didn’t work, doesn’t work, and won’t work.
‘Nuff said.
I am a 22 year old straight female. My (non-smoking) mother is currently undergoing treatment for Stage iv Lung Cancer. What is absolutely horrific and saddening for me is that the Exodus website reads so much like the cancer websites I regularly visit. The websites offer “prevention and recovery” tips, “patient success stories,” and “support for family and friends.” They even allow you to make a donation if you want! How great. This just makes me feel violently sick. My mum has a life-threatening illness. To even vaguely compare homosexuality to a disease like this makes me so angry. How is it that an organisation like this is even allowed to operate in 2010?
A person’s sexual orientation is, as everyone else has said, completely and utterly natural. I sincerely hope that in my lifetime I will be able to see a day where homosexuality is a non-issue. Perhaps then we will raise enough money for serious diseases like cancer so that a cure for that may be found, rather than a non-existent “cure” for being gay.
What a joke.
Your current positions usually include a decent amount of really up to date info. Where do you come up with this? Just stating you are very imaginative. Thanks again