by Jesse Galef –
Overcoming personal bias can be one of the most difficult tasks in searching for the truth. The particular experiences and influences in our lives are – to a large degree – out of our control and yet they play a huge role in shaping our beliefs. And it’s not as though we can reboot our lives, remove the biasing agent, and see what we end up believing (we would also have to do it a few hundred times so we can get a decent confidence interval).
A first step is acknowledging our biasing factors, but how do we wrap our minds around it? Alicorn at Less Wrong gives a great example:
During one of my epistemology classes, my professor admitted (I can’t recall the context) that his opinions on the topic would probably be different had he attended a different graduate school.
What a peculiar thing for an epistemologist to admit!
Of course, on the one hand, he’s almost certainly right. Schools have their cultures, their traditional views, their favorite literature providers, their set of available teachers…
<snip>
But on the other hand… but… but…But how can he say that, and look so undubiously at the views he picked up this way?
It’s an uncomfortable position. Now, for all I know, the professor was discussing preferences and not an objective truth claim. I don’t have as big of a problem with the notion that, had I been raised in the South, I would find grits more delicious than waffles (how absurd!). It’s more of a problem when we acknowledge that personal factors are affecting our so-called universal claims of objective truth.
As usual, my mind took the question to religion. Most people continue to believe the religion they were taught as a child. As it happens, I was raised in a secular household without much discussion of God and grew up to be an atheist. But let’s revisit the scenario in which I was raised in the South (eating foul grits). If I had been raised by Evangelical Christians would I still be an atheist today? It’s conceivable that I would be a Christian apologist, writing philosophical papers for God’s existence and arguing on blogs. That image troubles me – and not just because it’s at odds with what I think right now. I want to be confident that my beliefs are an accurate reflection of reality, not the result of where I was born. The counter factual makes me wonder.
It’s difficult not to sound hypocritical. I believe that, by coincidence, I was raised by parents who were correct. But I’ve heard religious people of all faiths say similar things. What can we do to cut through the biasing influence of our upbringing? How can I be confident that, unlike them, I really WAS coincidentally born into a household which was correct? Obviously, this question applies to everyone, not just me and not just atheists.
All I can see to do is foster critical thinking skills – the conscious effort to overcome bias. I’m trying my best to keep an open mind, give other views a fair hearing, and pursue the truth. So far, as I’ve done that, I’ve found the evidence for the existence of gods to be pathetically flimsy. I know I can never fully free myself of bias, but at least I’m doing what I can. It’s my impression that as people learn critical thinking skills, they’re more likely to become atheists. That certainly boosts my confidence.
I know many of you had religious influences growing up and would have a completely different perspective on the issue. I would love your take.
I think I would first approach this issue from the perspective of truth being consistent with itself. Those adhering to a particular religion firmly believe their particular religion is the correct one, based on evidence which they find utterly unacceptable in other religions. The Koran means nothing to a Catholic, the Book of Mormon means nothing to a Muslim, yet they draw authority for their ‘truth’ from their own holy texts. Atheists, meanwhile, see the entire religious system and thought process as flawed. They see the inconsistency in one any given religion being the right one and the only right one, and whether they were born into circumstances that painted this picture for them or they arrived at it themselves, the inconsistency remains. It doesn’t necessarily mean that atheists are right, but I would argue it does provide a firmer grounding for them to lay claim to it as truth than anyone advocating a specific religion.
This is a very thought-provoking post. Often when discussing with theists, for example my Catholic parents, why I believe their religion to be factually wrong (regardless of morality) they quickly take umbridge at my perceived arrogance in “claiming to know everything”. I argue that I don’t believe I know everything, but I have studied certain parts of history and know that they tell me x doctrine used to be the opposite or y story from the bible is historically impossible. It doesn’t really change their view of what I’m saying and I’m not sure how to further the conversation after that. I do not mean to appear arrogant, it’s just that there are things I DO know (as much as we can know events we did not witness). Does it perhaps unsettle theists that they cannot make the same claim and have only faith to go on? Does it anger them that secular texts should presume to try to trump holy ones? I bring this up because I can see the gulf created between me and the theists of my family by both a difference in circumstance and the learning of critical thinking. I was the first in my family to go to university, despite being the youngest child, and it was here that I learned to break the barrier of cognitive dissonance which had been causing me a headache for so many years. My friends also are largely disinterested in religion and rather diverse relative to the much more homogeneous world my parents grew up in.
Nice article! It is a thought provoking question. I certainly think I would be a different person had I not been raised in an evangelical Christian family.
I feel okay with this for two reasons. First, the fact of the matter is that this counter factual question is quite literally applicable to every person alive. We are a product of our childhoods, and a great deal of what we think is so strongly influenced it might as well be determined by what we learned before we were ten. This is biologically and culturally caused, and it is normal. I don’t have any problem admitting that, growing up differently, I might be spending this part of my life completely nonreligious, or with a variant of whatever regional religion my hypothetical parents followed.
I do think, however, knowing what little I know about myself, that I would be drawn in one way or another to a worldview which extended beyond simple materialistic empiricism. Perhaps, more accurately, I would require a set of ideals that let me marvel about things which defy explanation. Obviously, atheism is compatible with that kind of worldview, but I do think it takes a bit more work to get to it from an atheistic or nonreligious perspective.
The second reason that I’m not distressed by the deterministic factors in my upbringing is that my own beliefs (even in my early twenties) are quite different from both the beliefs to which my family introduced me and the beliefs I actually held when I was considerably younger. I think growing *from* the beliefs you hold as a child is incredibly important, and I don’t think that being raised in a given family will usually destroy the impulse to find out what you believe for yourself.
I also think it is interesting that being raised in a religious or nonreligious family appears to have a pretty limited effect upon how likely you are to be religious or nonreligious. If I am the kind of person who branches out from the beliefs they were raised with, I will branch out from a religious or nonreligious home. If I am the kind of person who holds onto the beliefs they were raised with, I will hold onto the beliefs taught in a religious or nonreligious home.
Only in a relatively free society do you have that option. In a theocracy you damn well better believe what your parents believe.
A serius point, sometimes a thin line between life and death.
Or at least give that particular belief lip service.
You had better, and yet often people don’t. Even the most theocratic society will have nonbelievers, or underground followers of some other belief. Which is really unexpected and fascinating, when you think about it.
@JonJon
That’s not something that is limited to theocratic societies but includes any society in which its beliefs are enforced through what may be deemed unreasonable measures.
“Which is really unexpected and fascinating, when you think about it.”
And don’t forget truly heroic. Like, for example, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It’s one thing to go against your religion in the face of ostracism. That’s brave. But in the face of death, that is truly heroic.
I agree.
If I had to bet on it, I would say that you would probably be a progressive Christian if you had grown up in an evangelical home. While your world view certainly expands as you further your education, the social, familial and psychological pressures to maintain the only world view you’ve ever known is very strong. Especially when it comes to superstition.
Human beings are already wired for superstitious belief, a carry over of what has helped our species evolve and survive. Personally, it took me several serious tries of inquiry, and a final 5+ year self-deprogramming, before I was able to shed off the “make belief” that was environmentally hard wired into me. And to this day, I don’t know of one person from my religious past who has been able to overcome their superstitious beliefs. They may be liberally minded, socially conscious, and environmentally aware, but they still cannot let go of the religious dogma that defines their world view.
Jon, Progressive Christianity was part of my journey (I *did* grow up in an Evangelical home), but in the long run, atheism bubbled its way to the surface. Once started asking questions, it seemed inevitable that eventually, I’d give up my god delusion.
Well, now you’ve met me. I was raised in an evangelical fundamentalist Christian household. I was trained and educated for the ministry, and served for two years as a working minister.
I am now an atheist.
Me too. I served as a Pentecostal/Charismatic minister for about 9 years. Sad to say I helped several thousand people through the “born again” thing. Wish I had a do-over.
I too have led many people to accept Jesus into their heart (aka converted them). I also almost went into ministry. I personally don’t have any regrets about my religious past. It is what it is, and it will always be a part of who I am.
My past faith, family and community taught me what selfless love is, and what it means to forgive. It also taught me the joy of serving other people. Sure it’s all make believe, and horrible, horrible things have been done in the name of religious dogma and ignorance, but there’s a lot of good things – particularly from modern and progressive Christianity – that are still beneficial to society.
Jon, it sounds as though your childhood religious indoctrination was particularly intense. Would I be out of line to ask in which tradition you were raised?
Hope you are trying to point out some resonable facts of certain traditions.
Indeed, quite intense, and still intense, although my parents have been very, very good about the whole thing. Mostly Southern Baptist sprinkled with other denominations from time-to-time. Since Jesus was my imaginary companion into adulthood, letting go of him was like losing someone I had loved and known my entire life. That’s the only way I can describe it to someone who was raised in a secular home and never experienced the intense superstitious belief that most devoted Christians have experienced.
That’s some good, but scary, thinking Jesse.
Here’s my thoughts. As you mention yourself, many atheists were raised in religious environments. Our side promotes evaluating truth claims as a virtue, so we can assume that our truth claims have been fairly exhastively evaluated. Secular parents tend to say they want to teach their child “how to think, not what to think.”
On the other side you tend to be told the world is a certain way. And the flaws are built right in. There’s the pre-emptive defense that you will be mocked, and that you must believe in the face of facts. Pus there’s the inflexible nature of their view, which makes it unsuitable in a modern society
The fact that questions are not encouraged is, to me, a tacit admission of defeat. If you think you have reality on your side you are not afraid to test your position. After all you expect to win on the facts.
So I believe counterfactual Jesse may well love grits, but I bet he’s abandoned the faith he was raised in.
I too gre up rather secular, and I never tried on the religious safety blanket, so I am very interested in hearing more. My wife has her deconversion story, but the more I hear about people’s deconversions, the better I feel that I am able to influence people to ust once or twice look outside what they believe to be true.
there doesn’t seem to be a magic bullet for faith. Most of the stories I’ve heard [including my own] have someone challenging us on our beliefs and making us question them.In my case that challenge sat at the back of my mind eating away my faith until I looked at my fellow christians and realised I didnt believe what they believed anymore.
But when the challenge was laid down I reacted as stupidly and defensively as so many others. If I hadn’t sought out and thanked the person they’d probably never know their question had hit home with me.
Religion is a swamp of contradictions and once people start thinking it over rather than just reacting they’ll lose their faith. You just never know what’ll get them started
Not necessarily. A lot of well educated critical thinkers still cling to their faith. Albeit they are not likely to be fundies. What happens to many is rather than losing their faith, they become better skilled at defending it (think any theologian). And then there is that compartmentalization phenomenon that renders their beliefs impervious to rational arguments.
Right Nomad. It’s that damned Bible. It’s so flexible, it can be twisted to accommodate any viewpoint. If it was more consistent and rigid we could get people to deconvert faster.
Yes you could. That’s why the Bible’s flexibility is a good thing (for both the religious and the atheist.) Say what you will, the majority of Christians are not fundamentalists. The reason for that is that the Bible does not require it. So, not only are Christians harder to convert this way (as you lament) but also the positive aspects of Christianity tend to be emphasized in the context of their society, which makes what Christians there are, less disruptive and far more helpful to society at large.
“but also the positive aspects of Christianity tend to be emphasized in the context of their society”
Or they would have done the “right thing” regardless of whether they are Christian or not … who knows?
I don’t think the issue is that important on an individual level. The survival and growth of the memes of religion or non-belief are dependent on how beneficial they to society.
True or not, the most well adapted philosophy will be the dominant one in a society. Of course, we are biased towards secularism, but that doesn’t mean it will be the most successful. Even if there are no gods, it’s possible that humans might survive better with them than without.
> ” The survival and growth of the memes of religion or non-belief are dependent on how beneficial they [are] to society.”
I disagree. Take a look at various Arabian countries where education in natural sciences is a joke because the curriculum is not allowed to challenge the Quaran in any way – not to mention that a majority of women get no higher education. This is of no benefit to their societies, if benefit is measured by progress and economic wealth.
These countries are seriously underdeveloped, and while there are no doubt other factors than religion at play, religion isn’t helping the situation at all. If history is any lesson, positive societal change seems to be facilitated by limiting religious influence, combined with political and economical reforms (a la Turkey in the 20th century, or Europe in the Renaissance). These changes, and the benefits they bring, are what influences religion, rather than the other way round.
Likewise, there are many non-religious memes that survive and even prosper despite their detrimental effects on society. The unwillingness to reform the obviously inefficient and super-expensive American healthcare sector is one example of this.
I have to agree with trj … it’s not necessarily the most well-adjusted meme — for society as a whole — that becomes dominant. In modern Western society, it seems the meme with the best sounds-bytes is prone to prosper! Which is rarely the most thoughtful, nuanced viewpoint.
And looking at history, a case could arguably and plausibly be made that religion in western society has often been a parasite on society … draining the poorest in society of what little energy and money they have, for the aggrandizement of the powerful in the church.
Ultimately I think the explanation of the survival of religion is a question above my pay-grade! But those are my first thoughts.
A parasitic meme that invades the mind and uses the host to propagate itself through transmission to others. To summarize (probably badly) one of Daniel Dennett’s arguments .
The thing is that in the long term that particular mindset would lead to stagnation. The Middle East has managed to buck the trend because they have somthing the rest of the world wants (oil) and that has made them some of the richest countries in the world. And as long as there is enough wealth thouse at the top have what they need to maintain the status quo.
If the world does shift to other energy sources and stops buying what the Arabian countries have to sell things are going to change in that part of the world. As there will nolonger be anything offsetting their restrictive ideology.
This is a great piece and it covers a topic which I think about a lot. Being raised a baptist, then leaving the faith, and now living in a town heavily populated by fundies, any discussion of ‘faith’ and the reasons for believing or not inevitably coming down to ad hominem statements (‘you left the church because you were hurt’ ‘you stay because it makes you comfortable’ ad nauseum). It’s hard to get around these, and as fallacious as they appear, one can’t entirely discount them I don’t think. Looking at the other side (which ever the other side is for you), it’s hard to see that not only is their view comfortable for them, but it makes the most sense, and atheists are just as misguided and deluded to fundies as fundies are to atheists. It’s why I think conversation and debate are only slightly effective in changing one’s mind about the subject. It helps to get the viewpoints in an open arena, but for the most part, I feel that a person must come to the change really looking at the arguments for them to be swayed (and let’s not forget, there are probably as many conversion stories as deconversion stories)
It’s kind of sad, really. Makes me think it’s all kind of worthless, and that people are going to believe what they believe regardless. Sucks to be an undergrad evo-bio major with this mindset!
I grew up in a very, very religious home; I’d say we were about 90% Fundie. I was so serious about my relationship with God and I began to question what it was that made me so certain about my faith. I wanted to know that I knew that I knew I had real faith – because “without faith it is impossible to please God.”
Then I realized all it was was that I was the malleable daughter dutifully absorbing whatever beliefs my parents fed me. One day I was content to argue and defend that the Bible is the Word of the One and Only Living God; the next day I was disturbed by the realization that if I had been born into a Muslim family, I would have been a devout Muslim. Had I been born into a Jewish family…and so on. So then I got all depressed realizing that I didn’t really truly believe anything. My first response was panic: “Oh no! My faith in God is not on a firm foundation! I’m still going to hell!”
Ever since then I’d struggled for years with what I believe and why. There was too much deeply ingrained fear for me to let go of my religion straightaway. After all, fire insurance is a good thing to have. :-) Since there’s no fire to worry about, I got rid of the that insurance policy with all its annoying bindings and clauses. It’s nice.
I also grew up in a secular home. My grandfather’s “influence” was such that if my parents wanted to take me to church, they might have been cut off financially from his support. So, he was a loud atheist with a lot of ideas to express, but never in such a way to talk about it non-stop or take us aside and tell us what it’s all about. Without his deconversion, I likely would have been brought up Catholic; however, without his financial support, I probably would be better with money now (I’m pretty terrible with money), but I would not have had dance lessons or straight teeth, and probably would have not gotten to college at all. There’s a lot of what ifs here.
I feel such in my family, that I’m the kind of person who would always be asking a lot of questions anyway, so I take that I would have questioned faith at some point, and a lot of other customs and mores people cling to. I’m a little weird, but not really weird. I think I have a residual Catholic guilt and repression, so to speak, possibly not having actual Catholicism against which to rebel, but I look at life like an alien sometimes and study people’s automatic behaviors, question them, really sometimes put a barrier between myself and society sometimes. Just like some people automatically respond to life as if there is a higher power and I question that, I question a lot of other instilled behaviors as if maybe there’s another way to go about it people just don’t do. I think I’m outside of my upbringing when I do that, so there’s a chance I would have anyway, regarding an alternate reality where I was raised to be a good Catholic. I do not have any way of knowing if that attitude came from the atheist/secular influence of my grandfather – i.e. just a person in my life who also questioned and observed, or from just the way I am. I mean, I could say my family is one rigid sort of way, that without a radical voice somewhere, I could not approach radical ideas or think of them, whether that be questioning god or life, social behaviors, I might not have had any original thought to do that. I think I came to atheism on my own, though, after some hysterical teenaged battles with my grandfather, some higher education, I really took some time to think ‘what do I think?’ and arrived at the conclusion.
Jesse, thank you for raising a most important, perhaps the most important, issue. There are things that as a younger man I would have given my life for but now they only make me cringe. I believe strongly in the adage that skepticism starts at home. The real trick is to actually carry through. The scientific method works so brilliantly (imo) because it pragmatically addresses the fact that the human mind is not well adapted to this purpose.
Though I at one time believed, it was not a strong belief. My mother was religious, but after I was 6 or so, she stopped going to church. Then she and dad had a divorce, with my dad having full custody of me. My dad is in no way religious. I don’t think he’s an atheist, but by FSM he lives like he’s one.
If my parents were intensely religious, I don’t think it would’ve made me believe any more than the weak belief I had. I’m a very logic-oriented person. Belief in a god is, at it’s core, non-logical. I can’t believe in something that has never been proven to exist. It’s just not me.
Added to that, even as a child the stories of the bible bugged me. Jonah and the whale, having to punish descendants for the ancestor’s wrongdoings, killing animals because they were “tainted.” All those issues, and more, I questioned when I was little and I still question them now. Except now I have the luxury of knowing it’s all made up bullshit.
I think one of the things that has helped me as an atheist who grew up in a Christian home is not to consider anything “right” or “wrong” when it comes to belief. Proof, fact, and faith are all very different things, and don’t necessarily feed into each other. I have very very intelligent, very schooled parents (my father is a rocket scientist), and they are also very full of faith in Christ. I don’t think they’re wrong by any means, and I don’t think it’s my job to convince them that I’m right. Someone above pointed out that arguing about the existence or not of any deity only raises anger levels; it doesn’t “bring someone to the light”, whatever that light may be. I think I also respect my parents’ beliefs because I know they re-examine them on a regular basis, they understand the ideas of bias you’ve presented above, and they also respect my beliefs (or lack of beliefs). Evangelical atheists are as offensive to me as evangelical Christians (or anyone else who believes they are “RIGHT” and must impose their beliefs on others). Admitting your own bias and admitting that you can’t necessarily understand where someone else is coming from are great steps to keeping yourself from bigotry, no matter what you believe (or don’t).
It’s an interesting topic, and it’s parsed well, here. There’s only one way I would think about it a little differently. Jesse, you write:
“I don’t have as big of a problem with the notion that, had I been raised in the South, I would find grits more delicious than waffles (how absurd!).”
What I find interesting about that, aside from your point, is that grits really are made more deliciously in the South than they are in the North. Often it’s not just a different perspective, I think, but what that perspective is for/what it provides for the person…
Nice, thoughtful post, Jesse. It would be awfully interesting to take a poll and find out the religious background of a statistically significant group of atheists. I wonder how many of us were raised religious. And HOW religious?
Speaking solely for myself, I see little in how I was raised that directly influenced my atheism, one way or another. Practically speaking, I’m sure there WAS an influence, but it wasn’t overt. My disavowal of belief happened gradually over a number of years, and was rooted mostly in my study of history. When it became obvious that EVERY culture, for millennia, has claimed the One True Faith, my own faith started looking highly suspect.
My parents were churchy — Presbyterian — but not rabid about it. They didn’t — and don’t — preach or proselytize. It was largely a social thing, albeit an active one, rather than a spiritual one. But Daddy was a deacon in the church, Mom still says grace before every meal, etc. I took belief for granted as a child; memorized Bible passages, attended and later assisted with summer Bible school, even went to a Bible camp one summer. But by the time I was 11 or 12, I had started to study a lot of ancient history, mythology, and cultural anthropology. So I started to doubt. The more I studied, the more I doubted. By high school I was self-identifying as an agnostic … but I was probably really an atheist by then but not prepared to admit it to myself. I finally started calling myself an atheist about 15 years ago.
I was never pushed hard to believe, nor given any trouble when my lack of belief became apparent … so I never felt driven out of the church. I just left. I guess if my childhood had an influence on my atheism, it was that my parents approved of education — and that led me away from religion. So it was indirect.
So that’s my story. The question of how we each come to atheism is an interesting one. I’d love to see more data on the subject! Anyone know of any studies on the topic?
And BTW, grits ARE more delicious than waffles! Though waffles are good, too. :-)
Raised in the south. Hate grits. Go figure.
Mmmm. Cheese grits. With sage sausage. The best! (Yep. Raised in the South. No surprise.)
Raised in Britain. What the hell are “grits”?!
LOL! :-)
Grits are a coarsely ground meal of hulled corn. Boiled, they’re a common hot breakfast cereal in the Southern USA. Also popular in parts of the South as a dinner entree — shrimp-and-grits is a regional favorite in the lowcountry part of the Carolinas. And is delicious.
I’m Canadian. However, I received a well-rounded American education through the miracle of prime-time tv. Through an episode of Matlock, I learned that grits take 20 minutes to cook! :)
You’d love it, Custador. It looks and tastes just like it sounds. Nomnom.
I’ve struggled with this as well, even though I was raised Christian and am now an agnostic with atheist tendencies. Its not just how I was raised, but its the whole slew of my experiences and my phisiological make up (I doubted santa clause at kindergarten, and when I asked my mom i was satisfied that he wasn’t real.) I still question that if I had read different things, kept going to church, would I have still slid out of theism? In my case i’m not so sure. My doubts surfaced over and over again despite trying to “be a good christian.” The doubts came because the things I saw in the bible and in church did not seem to match notions of a perfectly good god who had revealed perfect truth. It was all based on interpretation and christians differed on the fundamentals.
From what I’ve seen and read, almost all atheists are also philosophical agnostics. As Dawkins put it, since he can’t look under every rock in the universe he can’t prove he/she/it isn’t there. His position, to be fair, is also that the possibility is ridiculously unlikely. I think of myself a sa philosophical agnostic and a pragmatic atheist.
A question, for those who have posted on this thread about working as ministers, being trained for the ministry, etc, in past years: How did you come to leave your faith/profession?
I ask because atheism was relatively easy for me –deep faith wasn’t a huge part of my life at any point. But I presume it would be a much harder journey for someone who was so involved with their faith as to make their living that way. If it’s not too personal, what prompted the change? Was it a single inciting incident that started the change? Or a gradual shift in worldview? Or some of both?
If this is too private to share, please forgive me for asking. But it just seems to be such a difficult transition to undertake, that I’m curious what could move someone to make it. I do understand it’s likely not a simple answer. But I’d be interested in any responses.
I’m always skeptical of glib answers from people who accomplish something so take what I say with a grain of salt. I think that my love of learning and broad reading had an influence. Also, being gay had something to do with it but not in a straightforward manner since I was deeply closeted in homophobia when I left Christianity. However, I was trying to find a way to fit into my own skin which kept me searching.
What troubles me is this fact: all along the way as I went through my educational experiences there were always others, almost all the others, who simply looked at the same information and settled more deeply into their belief system. I’m intensely interested in how human brains can produce such disparate results while at the same time causing each of us to think the other guy’s an idiot. :)
Thanks for your response! I share your interest in how different people, with similar intellect and exposure to similar information, can arrive at such wildly dissimilar interpretations. I find the religious interpretation completely unfathomable. And yet, there are intelligent, well-educated, sophisticated people who believe passionately in it. What makes me come down on one side of the issue, and the believer come down on the other?
I would say that the apparent passionate belief is not as thoroughly consistent as it might appear on the surface. I haven’t addressed the emotional aspects of leaving one’s faith. All my friends, support network and most of my financial support came from the faith community. So just that alone made it “hard to go there” in one’s thoughts and I think I tended to shy away from things that could be detrimental to my belief system. But because I was a scholar, I couldn’t help myself from approaching such. I would just do it in little bits and pieces with lots of retreating to those theologians and ideas that propped me back up.
I can understand how some religious leaders get into a situation where they no longer really believe but continue on in their positions. One strong reason is the belief that even if the theology isn’t ‘true’, the community is the best organization we humans have for positive social change and stability (some wishful thinking here to avoid facing reality too). When enough associated individuals start believing this way, religious language becomes in some part a code for community needs and hopes.
The worst nightmare for me in leaving was when I agreed to stay on for a few weeks while they found a replacement for my pastorate (I didn’t tell these decision makers that my faith had collapsed). I preached and talked and prayed as if I still believed — a completely hypocritical thing to do. I was wrung out from the personal changes and I had people in the congregation who were very fragile emotionally. I didn’t want any suicides or destructive behaviors played out. Unfortunately, too many individuals within evangelicalism are highly authoritarian personalities and depend way too much on their leaders. I still don’t know if I did the best thing or not. What a mess.
The community I was in talked a lot about peace and love. I was surprised how, after a few months, compassion increased and anxiety levels dropped significantly and have stayed way below what I experienced as a Christian. One interesting personal observation is that for a period of a few months after leaving I felt like I was floating along unattached to anything. I have read a number of accounts of people whose experience was similar when leaving cults.
Those weeks must have been awful for you! For whatever it’s worth, I think you probably did the right thing. Or at least not a wrong thing. If there were fragile people in the congregation, making the change as smooth as possible probably was helpful to them … even if ultimately being in that congregation was not necessarily in their long term best interests.
I don’t envy you the situation, or the choices you had to make — leaving your profession and your entire social network had to have been dreadful. I can’t really even imagine it.
I was raised in a non religious household.My dad believes in evoultion and is borderline agnostic while my mom is more so agnostic.As a kid I believed in a very abstract God.What’s interesting is when I was about ten years old my parents sent me to a very conservative evangelical christian school because they had more academic and athletic opportunities than the public schools near us.I attended this school all the way through high school for seven years.It was really life changing to be told at ten years old that your going to burn in hell if you dont have some man named Jesus in your heart.It was quite scary, and so I was a bit brainwashed in my younger years believing in hell and satan and all that lovely nonsense.As I grew older and formed my own thoughts I immediately realized how truly simple and childish the bible and Christianity is.But it has given me a unique bias to religion because truly its your parents and your schooling that determine your biases.Now I’ve come back to believing in evoultion and a vague form of God which is really just a word I use to personify the power that is within all of us, connecting everyone.So maybe I have come back to what my parents believe but for awhile I really did believe in Christianity even when my parents just laughed at me.But in the long run its given me a unique view.Since I basically have the bible memorized it has helped me to realize how much of a farce and contradiction the bible and Christianity is.On a final note, what I find very interesting is most Christians I meet have barely read the bible.But the best part is look on they’re faces when they realize the atheist knows more about it than they do.Especially when I recite entire chapters out of psalms.that really gets them
I think if any of us can succeed in encouraging this type of thinking, we’ll have left a better world than we inherited.
Obviously, I don’t share your conclusions with respect to god(s), but I wholeheartedly affirm what you say above.
And Jesse, I really appreciate this honest and humble post. This level of transparency takes a lot of courage. I admire that.
These are interesting comments that resonate with me. I was also raised deeply religious by a very fundamental mother and studied for the ministry in a fundamental church. I”ve read the Bible many times, dabbled with the Koran, looked at the Book of Mormon, attended most major denominational churches including Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, Presb., pentecostal, and so on and on. I ended up going into psychology as a profession (like that would be a surprise). I find that most people on here are very thoughtful and that thoughtfulness led them to seek “greater” truth outside themselves. It makes sense that many would become atheists because it is simply being honest with yourselves and looking realistically at religious teachings and the history of religion in general. I often ask my students, “if you were born in Iraq, what would your religion be?” Of course, it would be Islam. In America, we have different choices and after years of redoctrination, many of us (after a long and arduous process) overcome our backgrounds and choose atheism. Personally, I don’;t consider myself atheist but more agnostic simply because I’m giving myself a chance to change my mind again. It can’t be proven either way as I see it. I can not accept any of the major world religions (at least, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) because they are based on the assumption that an omnipotent God, who created humans to be fallible would destroy them for doing what comes natural to them. So all those Bible stories are unbelievable, but that took me years to finally accept. I agree with Laura that many atheists know more of the Bible that most Christians. At the same time, I have known many sincere Christians whose only motivations in life were to obey their tenets of faith and live accordingly. As a result, I am tolerant of their beliefs and wish all humans could live by the ideal of the Golden Rule or at least the Silver Rule (do not harm).
I was raised Roman Catholic. My mother converted to RC from Presbyterian after my father and young sister died. She remarried a RC. Since the remarriage was when I was 4, I never knew any other father. They were very religious churchgoers and they expected my older step brother and my younger half sister to attend and participate. I attended summer religion school, Saturday catechism, and was eventually confirmed. I lost my faith when I was about 14 and discovered science. Although I am only recently out of the atheist closet, I feel I have been an atheist all my life. My upbringing may have had profound effects on my outlook on life, but it did not warp me into a religious person. I think the biggest influence was the skepticism that comes from understanding how science works. Without skepticism, a person does not question authority. Those questions must be asked and considered before one sheds the old, ragged, cloak of faith.
That’s a question I always ask myself, though in other contexts, would I still be me if I’d lived differently? To me is the handicap: being crippled ever since I was an infant, in a country not very conductive to cripples has given me a kind of different perspective. Would I have read the same books? Chosen the same profession? Had the same hobbies? Doubtful.
So how much of it is biological me and how much is me-because-of-this?
I grew in a secular household. Mom is religious but not rabid about it, and she passed through a lot of creeds before Christianity. She always encouraged us to find what makes us tick (though atheism wasn’t really an option… Oops).
Perhaps it’d have been different if she was a fundie… but then I might be a) dead, b) someone else altogether. Who knows?
My father was a conservative evangelical pastor. My childhood can be summed up in a series of “thou shalt nots”, and they included:
Giggling (not mentioned in bible, but irritating to my father who was doing something IMPORTANT – ie thinking about his next sermon)
Dancing (could lead to bad thoughts!)
Sex before marriage
Masturbation (sex is meant to be shared between two people who are married, and certainly not meant to be enjoyed in isolation!)
Alcohol
Smoking
Swearing
Rock music
Anything on tv other than PG rated sitcoms (until I was about 15)
Staying out past midnight (“nothing good happens after midnight – turns out they were WAY wrong on this one!)
Joy (everyone I knew was depressed, burdened…praise the lord).
My parents were unpredictable, sometimes violent, critical. It was a very unsafe environment, and extremely oppressive.
I pretty much methodically broke every rule. Managed to nail a few of them at once by joining a rock band, dating the lead singer, and going drinking after band practice (when I was 17). Which of course meant that I broke curfew. When there are this many rules to break, you have to become efficient – far too time-consuming to break them all one at a time!
At the same time, even when I was not actively living a christian life, I knew I was a terrible person, bound for hell. I had asked Jesus into my heart THOUSANDS of times as a child & teenager, and nothing ever happened. So I thought christianity worked for everyone but me. I thought I was a freak, and there was no escaping the rapture & then hell. So I stopped trying. But it nagged me all the time, and led to drug addiction (cocaine), an abusive marriage (completely in line with how god treated people in the bible), and disabling depression. I had to search for truth, or die. Literally. So I started reading books that questioned my beliefs, and over a period of a few years became completely and totally deconverted. I am now off drugs, am no longer depressed, have tossed the abusive husband, and am finally moving toward happiness (not quite there yet, but at least I see progress!) Deconversion, in my case, was literally a life-saver. I am a living example of how destructive christian beliefs are.
I am fortunate that I have 2 sisters who also deconverted and are as passionate about their anti-christian beliefs as I am. My elderly parents, to their credit, have grown a lot too (they have had to, with the three of us as daughters!). I guess I had to go through a childhood, teen years & young adulthood in terrible pain so that I would be inspired to find truth. Maybe, if my life had worked for me, I wouldn’t have bothered and I would have remained chained to this crippling belief system.
One more thing of interest. A lot of my uncles are pastors too, and most of their children are good christians, many in the mission field. We never stop hearing about how cousin so-and-so is serving the lord, and so are their children. Well, my parents both went through a serious illness and all three of us sisters were there for them. My dad said one day that he was shocked that his brother’s children, who were all very christian, were nowhere to be found when their own parents were ill! My dad was wondering how it was possible that his non-christian children had better character than the christians. He is still pondering that one!
Maybe they didn’t care as much b/c they figured their parents were going to heaven anyway when they died, and that’s much better than living here on earth? Anyway, I hope your parents realized that it is possible to be good without god, as shown by your example.
Never thought of it that way! I also think sometimes christians use “prayer” as an excuse not to actively do what they should be doing. I know I did! It’s much easier to pray for someone than to actually take the time to visit them in the hospital.
PS glad to have you here as a strong, independent woman who overcame such challenges and lived to tell the story! I always enjoy reading your well-reasoned comments.
Really appreciate the feedback! This blog is my “atheist community”!
Thumbs Up!
Thanks for the support!
From personal experience, I can attest that forming my philosophy on the non-existence of god came independently, despite being raised in a church-going household by a devoutly religious mother. (To be fair, my father never expressed any faith whatsoever; he went to church with us in deference to my mother.)
I recall being 12-13 and despising church. I seethed at being expected to pray. I don’t know where I got the inspiration, but I clearly remember getting to a point when I began omitting the words god, father, jesus, etc. from my recitions of the various prayers in church services. I seem to have taken to the understanding that the teachings of love and compassion from christ were good, but that they were also mythological, and the parts about god and the holy spirit were falsehoods.
So, all of that is to say, I believe that if we are skeptical by nature, we can form an atheist philosophy independently and without perversion by the influences in our upraising.
Husband: I love you so much.
Wife: Don’t give me this shit!
Husband: You don’t love me all this years?
Wife: I am not god …
There is an inherited component to religiosity based on studies of identical twins who were reared apart. Religiosity doesn’t mean acceptance of an organized religion but more likely includes an intellectual and “spiritual” curiosity. To me, this means that we are born with a tendency to pursue our interests in life which includes all sorts of passions and intellectual interests. Religion or searching for deeper understanding is one of those, I believe based on twin studies. Now, if we were brought up in different environments (religious versus secular), the end result might be different but our pursuit would probably be very similar, if that makes sense. I like to think of genotype and phenotype in genetics to help explain. We have inherited genetic traits but the psychological and behavioral manifestation of those genes is shaped partly by the environment.
I have an interesting conundrum. Someone very close to me is a paranoid schizophrenic man, age 35. He’s really terrific, profound, intelligent, talented. However, he “sees” demons, angels, literally feels the “holy spirit”, etc. Honestly, I don’t know if this is part of the illness, or if he actually has a doorway to a dimension the rest of us don’t see. In any case, it’s hard to argue that there’s no evidence for god when he actually sees and feels it. He is willing to consider the possibliity that they are created by his mind, but he doesn’t feel that’s likely. Schizophrenics are highly religious – probably for this reason – I understand almost 100% of them are religious in some way. His grandparents were very christian, and he’s haunted by these spirits all the time as well as fears of hell, etc. because to him, all this stuff is so real. I believe that if he had not been raised with religious teachings, he wouldn’t be so disturbed by all this. But he believes it to be real, intellectually and emotionally, so it’s terrifying for him. I’m his atheist friend, and he knows what I believe. Any advice for me????
Discuss schizophrena as it manifests across different cultures. There is usually a degree of interpretation involved and they’re usually heavily based on what the sufferer was raised with. A little research might open his horizons.
Really good idea. Hope there’s something online.
If he is really schizophrenic, I would seek medical advice for him. If he also listen to you as a friend, like you to him, emotional support (a true caring friend) might lead him to try alternatives to overcome his own percieved fear.
He was diagnosed 16 years ago, and is on heavy medication all the time. It controls the extremities of his delusions. If he were not medicated, he would probably live on the street and be preaching on corners – one of those crazy people we cross the street to avoid. He’s really careful with his meds, and it’s more or less under control. Except for these “hauntings” and a bit more paranoia than most people (although I know many so-called “normal” people who are more paranoid than he is!)
Basically, that’s what I have been doing – listening to him. I respect him a great deal, and really feel for the torment he goes through on a daily basis, just to get through the day. I think it’s no accident that we are friends – he needs a rational person in his life to balance him out (not to say that I don’t have issues, neuroses, etc., but I think I AM rational!). I guess I thought this related to the topic “would I still be an atheist” – I was able to largely overcome my religious upbringing, but someone with severe mental illness it’s a lot more difficult. I think it should be ILLEGAL to put this crap into the heads of children, because those who do succumb to mental illness will suffer that much more.
It also begs the question – are schizophrenics more religious because they “see spirits”, or are they schizophrenic in the first place because of religious upbringing? Did it actually help to CAUSE the illness and delusions?
Not qualified on medical condition, but want to know if he treat it as a medical condition except those episodes?
Great question. Best answer – I think so. Enough that he knows he has to take meds. On the other hand, I think he truly believes that he has a “sixth sense” – I mean, what is mental illness anyway? How do we know how much is cultural expectations/norms, and anything outside of that is “ill”? Being the rationalist, it’s hard for me to admit but he’s pretty convincing. For example, there were times when I was thinking of him, and he called – said he felt my spirit. Hard to argue with that. I don’t think it’s supernatural, but maybe it’s a skill or gift that we’re not all in touch with. For example, in certain eastern cultures it’s the “norm” to be able to heal others with telepathy, etc. Maybe it’s just a matter of degree, to what is “ill” and what is “gifted”…I admit, I just don’t know. And he doesn’t either.
“Hard to argue with that. I don’t think it’s supernatural, but maybe it’s a skill or gift that we’re not all in touch with. For example, in certain eastern cultures it’s the “norm” to be able to heal others with telepathy, etc.”
Doing some searching of what is “norm” during your free time might be helpful even if it is not for him.
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Schizophrenia is a largely inherited mental disorder. It is very common in identical twins reared apart and if both parents have it..it is very inheritable. That being said, there are stressors in life that do trigger its onset. It is currently believed that people have a genetic predisposition to schizophrenia and then stressors can bring it out. They do have delusions (false beliefs) and hallucinations (see, hear, feel things) that are not real. Many delusions they have are religious or grandiose (I’m Jesus, God, etc). Many of these hallucinations/delusions are controlled by meds so if he is having them, he needs medical care. I don’t know of any evidence that schizophrenics are more religious than other people or their religious upbringing is any different. They might also have political delusions and persecution ones. They may think the television is talking about them and all sorts of things. IT may be related to increased levels of dopamine in the brain and meds can help with it.
Meds don’t work for all schizophrenics, but thankfully, my friend is very responsive (and responsible with taking them). The extreme delusions disappear with medication (at first, he thought the mental hospital were messengers of Satan). All that’s remaining is this spiritual sensitivity, or whatever it is. His father was an undiagnosed schzophrenic, and was very abusive to his mother and him. This was the trigger, in my view, that set it off. I am aware that non-religious schizophrenics might have other fantasies (CIA, the NBA, somebody is putting in tracking devices, etc.) but in most cases they are religious. I think it’s because so many of them “see” or feel what they perceive to be spirits. From their perspective, that’s evidence. My friend is highly intelligent, and this is confirmation for him. He seems to think that he knows where the delusions end and the real thing begins. However, his spiritiaulity does relate to the belief system of his culture – that is, christianity. No doubt, if he was a schizophrenic in China, he would have other fantasies. So I was interested in how this related to the topic “would I still be an atheist”.
Schizophrenia and personal bias are 2 different things.