by VorJack
There’s a story at the NYT about the plight of people who are trying to leave the Church of Scientology. The article focuses on Christie and Chris Collbran, a couple who joined in their teens and worked for the top Scientology administrative group, Sea Org.
They signed a contract for a billion years — in keeping with the church’s belief that Scientologists are immortal. They worked seven days a week, often on little sleep, for sporadic paychecks of $50 a week, at most.
But after 13 years and growing disillusionment, the Collbrans decided to leave the Sea Org, setting off on a Kafkaesque journey that they said required them to sign false confessions about their personal lives and their work, pay the church thousands of dollars it said they owed for courses and counseling, and accept the consequences as their parents, siblings and friends who are church members cut off all communication with them.
The article depicts people who are so sunk in to the Scientology organization that they know little else. Their entire support structure, including their families, are involved with the church. Even after becoming disillusioned with the Church itself, they remain believers in its odd theories:
Ms. Collbran says she still believes in Scientology — not in the church as it is now constituted, but in its teachings. She still gets auditing, from other Scientologists who have defected …
You have to work at it to lose people like this. Perhaps this is why the organization spokesman seems a little tone deaf:
Mr. Davis, the church’s current spokesman, said Scientologists are no different from Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Amish who practice shunning or excommunication.
“These are common religious tenets,” he said. “The very survival of a religion is contingent on its protecting itself.”
Saying, “hey, we’re no more repressive than the other guy,” is not a winning strategy.
Probably the most encouraging part of the story is the positive effect that ex-Scientologist groups are having, as well as directly confrontational groups like Anonymous:
“Since Anonymous has come forward,” said Marc Headley, who belonged to the Sea Org for 16 years, “more and more people who have been abused or assaulted are feeling more confident that they can speak out and not have any retaliation happen.”
Mr. Headley, who wrote a book about his experiences, is suing the church for back wages, saying that over 15 years his salary averaged out to 39 cents an hour. His wife, who said the church coerced her into having two abortions, has also filed a suit. The couple now have two small children.
Scientology is a mythology that makes every other religion look well-reasoned. I am always stunned that anybody could accept any portion of it as even close to true.
Is there any chance that Scientology is not a scam, but the world’s biggest and longest-running Poe?
Anonymous, as in the 4chan group? I know that the /b/tards get off on flame-baiting Scientology, but I didn’t realize it was having a positive effect.
Anonymous wasn’t flamebaiting Scientology, they were trying stop it through organized protests. This is about the only positive thing Anonymous has strive for.
It’s good to see Anonymous’s protests(Yes, *THAT* Anonymous) are having an effect on the church. For a long while I was thinking it was in vain.
I took a sociology class on cults and mind control in college with professor Richard Ofshe. At the time he was an expert in the field. He was on the Scientology suppressives list because he testified as an expert witness against the church at trial a few times. One of the speakers that came to our class was a former member of Scientology who professor Ofshe had helped win a large lawsuit against the church. I remember him talking about Sea Org and being kept down in the crowded hold of a ship for months before he got away. It was a fascinating story.
After reading Dianetics, I could not understand how anyone could come away from that book thinking L. Ron Hubbard was anything but nuts. It is a crazy read.
The saddest part is the last paragraph:
Like every other religion on the face of the earth, Scientology is a big fat lie. It’s all about greed and control. Yet we, in the United States, value religious freedom more than we value truth. I think truth should come first. Yes, we should each be free to believe whatever we want to believe, but no, we should not be free to teach and propagate the religious lies which so many of us hold dear to our hearts. Religion is not culture. It is not lifestyle. It is not faith. It’s not charming. It’s not unique. It’s not diversity. It’s a bunch of BS based on nothing more than lies and greed. It controls and destroys lives and nations alike. It perpetuates ignorance in mankind and is responsible for the slaughter of untold millions of people down through the ages. These are the hard facts my friends. Why do we tolerate organized religion in the name of freedom? We’re schmucks!
When it comes to religion, nobody has error-proof access to anything approaching truth, and so absent that certainty we are quite justified in valuing choice and freedoms of expression over truth.
In my opinion, of course. :)
Let the religious make their expressions privately, then, to themselves and in their own homes. Science trumps superstition in my book any day. I love the United States of America. I love freedom, but I’d love it a lot more if it were tempered with some reality and scientific common sense. I don’t love our current way of coddling and caressing and tolerating the rights of the willfully ignorant and misinformed to spread their lies and bad education to fresh minds in the name of religion. That’s my opinion ;) and I do respect yours.
Try a little harder to sound like an insane fascist, will ya?
Destroy freedom of expression in order to destroy religion? Talk about a cure that’s a million times worse than the disease…
Thanks for calling me an insane fascist. ^_^ Should I be flattered or appalled? Scientology is far more fascist than I could ever aspire to be. I am not fascist. I am making debate. Strong debate. I want you to think. Scientology enslaves its own members. The human rights violations perpetuated by the cult of Scientology upon its own members are atrocious and unforgiveable. I’m all for freedom of expression. How does freedom of expression translate into starting a cult of lies, recruiting and brainwashing new members, stealing all their money, and then abusing and controlling these multitudes of victims for years to come? Think about it. That’s more than freedom of expression. That’s legalized slavery.
Signing off and out. :) Peace and love to all of you.
Absurd oversimplifications do not constitute “strong debate”.
I don’t disagree with you that religion enslaves minds. But I definitely disagree with your statement that religionists “should not be free to teach”. You say you’re “all for freedom of expression”, but you clearly have a rather peculiar notion of what that means.
If religions are ever demolished, it will not be by force, but by greater access to shared knowledge.
Personal expression and practice of faith/religion is something entirely different from preaching religion to others and recruiting and brainwashing new members. Of course everyone should be free to think and believe whatever they wish to think and believe. I am not of the opinion, however, that everyone should be completely free to spread the blatant lies of religion and recruit new believers of said lies. I think organized religions should be taxed and their teachings should come with a standardized disclaimer about being unproven beliefs which often don’t match up with proven science and documented history. I believe in truthfulness. I believe thousands of years of religious lies and fairytales have done too much damage already. Why nurture its continuation? The facts are these: L. Ron Hubbard wrote a science fiction book. He made it into a religion/cult. The Church of Scientology is a criminal organization which destroys lives, relentlessy harrasses anyone who criticizes it, enslaves its members and takes all their money, teaches some far out crazy made-up stuff as being the truth, spreads around a lot of harmful medical and psychiatric misinformation, and actively recruits new members 365 days a year. Go join it and find out the awful truth for yourself.
What if a tenet of the religion is sharing one’s religion with others, as it is in Christianity and Islam? Are those people not allowed to follow that part of their religion?
Sharing on a personal level isn’t organized religion. It’s unfortunate.
If Joe Blow recruits Scary Mary into the Church of Scientology and the church proceeds to steal from Mary, mislead her, and cause her physical and/or mental harm along the way, it would be nice if she had a little more legal recourse than what is currently available to her. Sure she can file a lawsuit, but her chances of getting anywhere with it are slim to none. I wish the law would favor Mary just a bit more than it currently does. It is simply a dream of mine that people should actually be held responsible for telling lies, brainwashing and taking advantage of others. I realize this isn’t likely to happen. It’s just something on my wish list. I’d probably want Mary to take some of the responsibility for being so gullible too.
I do strongly believe, however, that organized religion should be taxed and monitored for fraudulent or other currently unlawful activity.
It would be great if the USA government would stop putting the words “In God We Trust” on our currency and coins. How awesome it would be if the words “under God” were removed from our Pledge of Allegience. I’d also favor Public Service Announcements proclaiming that the Government does not endorse any religious belief or spiritual preference.
Scientology became a religion only because the IRS was after L. Ron for tax fraud tied in with Dianetics – amazing how little it takes to form a religion.
I read the NYT article first and had emotions in response to it; VorJack expressed some similar ones.
The article said, as he quoted:
and responded
My response was more to the effect that they are blatantly controlling people by coercion or force, depending on how much one’s needs can go unmet while being shunned. This could go down harder for someone in a small, homogeneous town than someone in a large city with more support systems around. Then it’s not just social shunning; it’s refusing to hire, perhaps refusing to do business with, or serve to in restaurants, or provide legal and social and maintenance services to, the shunned. (Sound historically familiar?) And (my response was) that they are denying it so blatantly, by condoning control because “Look! Other religions do it too!”, that I can’t imagine everyone not being horrified and offended.
My other response is something I hope an attorney sees. How the bloody hell can the church legally get money owed out of these people, and not itself owe them for huge contract violation? I mean, their original contract for a billion dollars is either (1) far short of the $50 a week they were paid for 7-day workweeks, or (2) it’s not binding at all and null and void – including any clauses about what they owe the church.
I was sad that she is so brainwashed that she clearly can’t just figuratively as well as literally walk away. But since I had to work myself out of christianity’s mentally unhealthy effects bit by bit after only a mere three years in it, I understand. Still sad though.
How do you equate a three-year education to 3000 years of workings by men of faith in scripture by giving their lives and all else? I do not say you are wrong, but it is wrong to judge God from what man has to say about Him…especially those who lack faith in God. The negative is trying to judge the positive. I do say the only way to know the truth of God is to live, truly live what He says. It is for the spirit to enliven the desire to know the timid steps towards true full faith in God. Christianity is Moses’ old Judaism, except the sacrifice became Jesus, to make it easier for a world like ours. Hard to have animal sacrifice in the middle of New York’s Times Square. So the high priest was killed in place of all the animals. That is God’s grace for us, and why Jesus is so important. By the way how did you decide to listen to someone who mislead you so badly?
We equate the “three-year education to a 3000 years of workings” because they are both champion a higher power that has no actual proof and reasoning behind it. Just because those “workings” so old (I have no idea where you are getting the number 3000), doesn’t mean that they are correct, nor does their being martyrs make what they believe correct. The Earth was believed to be the center of the universe by the Greeks (Hipparchus first gave flawed proof of this around the mid 100′s BCE) and wasn’t figured out for a until the late 1600′s (Copernicus may have figured it out, but it wasn’t fully accepted until Newton showed how the mechanics worked). Were we correct simply because we had a tradition of assuming geocentrism?
The only reason that you are the “positive” is because you believe you are. You have been brought up to believe that your belief system is the correct one. This is exactly what all the religions do; any Muslim or Jew or Hindu could say the same thing all because they believe so. There is no real evidence that the Vedas or the Torah is any better than the bible as they champion their message by simply saying it is the word of god. Bible is true because it is the word of god, which we know is true because the bible says so; that’s a circular argument that has no proof. It’s like supporting the Holocaust because the Jews are evil, which we know is true because of Mein Kampf, which we know is true because it says it is true. I sincerely hope you don’t decide the logic is true in this case…
By the way how did you decide to listen to someone who mislead you so badly?
“We equate the “three-year education to a 3000 years of workings because they are both champion a higher power that has no actual proof and reasoning behind it.”
No sense! How does 3 years equate to a higher power? What actual proof do you have for what you say in negating God? What reasoning beats that of God? I wonder!
The book of Isaiah goes back to 700 BC or so, that is the one from the Dead Sea caves, the original goes further back. Moses goes back 3500 years…Take your pick.
If you would work out Genesis One you can see geocentrism is correct according to the bible. Man decided to change what God thru Moses said. You need to believe scripture to see it, if you see it you are a believer.
I did not say I was the positive. but I do say I have found a certain belief in scripture thru living the words. I do not judge as an outsider nor as one driven in a direction that is not in accordance with it. I am not mislead, I am different, I believe scripture over what man says…you who refuses to believe without understanding what I am talking about. Inexperience cannot master the experienced, so the old fella’s of the bible are the truth that is far different from your understanding.
How then can you answer me except to say I am wrong you are right without solid reasoning that stands the heat of 3000 years speaking solid truth. I’ll believe them any day over anything you say, even intellectually. I with foundation you without who then is mislead?
If you stick your thumbs in your ears and scream “LA-LA-LA!!!” at the top of your lungs, it would approximate what you’ve already done with your brain. You placed your foundation on a text that thinks Pi is equal to three and rabbits chew cud, not to mention the sun orbiting the Earth and other idiocies. The house is only as good as the foundation.
How can you judge me? My foundation is stronger than yours as it is not built upon my reasoning, where as you reason from what you think. Scripture is truth.
How can you judge me?
Well, it’s really quite simple. You speak as one who is not knowledgeable, and I provisionally judge that you are not knowledgeable. I’m absolutely amendable to changing that personal judgment if I were to come upon contrary evidence.
Scripture is truth.
So Pi is equal to three, rabbits do chew cud, and there is nothing new under the sun (copy machines, rocket ships, and automobiles notwithstanding)? Disease is caused by demons instead of infection. The firmament is just a bowl filled with water. The earth rests on pillars.
I’m tempted to sound the troll/Poe alarm.
You accept the proof of non-reason as proof. That is not truth. That is like… I don’t even know what that is. You accept the bible as truth because living in the word makes you feel ok. That does not say your foundation is stronger at all. You reject reason, you reject senses, you reject the network of knowledge compiled by humans given the brains and bodies (from god, if you want) that you were. What foundation is stronger, the one that makes you feel ok, or the one that makes someone else feel ok? Your book was compiled on what little was known at the time it was written, and we know more now. Your belief that it is the irrefutable word of god means little to many other people. Your book was actually formed by the reasoning as it was up to that point in time, when it did seem the earth was the center, when people told stories about it. How could anyone not think the earth was the center if we are looking at everything else from down here? Mathematics, that’s how.
If mathematics is a secure foundation for everyone who walks in it, then what makes the lack of reason a stronger foundation? It’s only your perception, and we judge you because mathematics is observably true and disputes earlier estimations that were once written down in your book. Your god could not pass the 2nd grade down here. It’s impossible to have faith in a deity that stupid, or esteem those who follow a deity that stupid highly at all. As you wish, walk in the word of the god that stupid, feel secure in that foundation. Don’t be surprised at all that people consider your education lacking and pat you on the head kindly as the grown-ups do all the talking and building and curing and, you know, anything to do with reality. I mean, I can’t really consider god to be the truth if what passes for walking in his word is not qualified to do much more than hand out programs to patrons at a theatre. If god meant us to be imbeciles, then we would have perished the species. You’ve been carried to the current age by the progress and reason of man, the perseverance toward knowledge, not willful stupidity emulating only all that god says.
“If you would work out Genesis One you can see geocentrism is correct according to the bible.”
l assume that you really meant heliocentrism. You don’t believe the Sun revolves around the Earth, do you?
In any case, please guide me to where in Gen. 1 I can find evidence of this.
Yes the sun does revolve around the earth. You need to slow your thinking down and not judge the bible by what you know, but what it knows. Genesis chapter one covers most of the earth’s position. Remember one thing the sun was not created until four days have passed after the earth’s creation. If god made the sun center of the universe then HE would have to move things out of position and place the sun in the center. the inner earth, our earth, was created first, four days later the sun came. Then there was light. Of course you need to believe god created everything.
That takes a lot of effort and extra hoops to make work… why isn’t the far simpler model which we figured out with reasoning correct? After all, you said that you find god through the individual not the church, so why do you believe something written by men?
Are you for real? You claim the Sun revolves around the Earth, and you use that as an example of how the Bible is always true?
What about the stars? Are they angels pinned to the celestial canopy?
Apparently there are also three levels of “Earthness” or whatever, too.
Talk about arrogance.
What made a “day” before the Sun was created?
If we’re going by time, then animists take the cake. Or, if that’s too barbaric for you, the Vedanta. Even Jainism is older than Judaism/Christianity, as is Zoroastrism.
Yet you’ve ignored their studies and the fact they, too, gave their lives for that, because you were born in the West (I assume).
First: LOL, Times Square.
Second: so sacrificing things is OK, just inconvenient. Good to know. I’m sure the Aztecs agreed heartily.
Then, the Aztecs probably pwned your cult time-wise, too. They were around for a long time.
How did you?
Really? How many Mormons, Catholics and Jehovah’s Witnesses encourage Mormons, Catholics or Jehovah’s Witnesses to brake off all contact with people who leave those groups? In comparison to Scientology, those religions are good and reasonable.
Yes, that’s exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are supposed to do. I’m not so sure about Catholicism (maybe he’s referring to the unlikely case of excommunication?), though.
Scientologist Mr. Davis: “The very survival of a religion is contingent on its protecting itself.”
BUT Faith instead depends only on truth, religion does not depend on truth; faith and religion are not coequal. This is the reason faith in any religion is not faith in God, God never created religion, man created religion, God created faith and that in His Word. He never left mankind an artifact to prove Him. He gave His Word, and when used with knowledge God’s Spirit works with the enacted Word, not a religion. pi
“Faith instead depends only on truth,”
Wrong.
If all one can say lacks a foundation how can what they say mean anything?
You are presuming the lack of foundation. Where do you get such an idiotic idea from? You are also presuming that because you assume you have a foundation, the things you say mean something, which they do. They mean you sound like a total idiot. Since I do not believe god exists, you have no foundation if that’s what you are considering a foundation, and it’s true, your words are funny and unreasonable and plain ridiculous. Contrarily, those of us who use reason do tend to sound like they have something of value to say, things that are true, and things that are demonstrable to others. Who is calling whom the fool here, you with nothing calling nothing something and something nothing? Your god forgot to install some intellectual power to your cranial area, which turns out to make him look pretty bad. There is no reason to worship an idol who proves himself in “the word”, a pile of nonsense, nor his followers who can’t see past the tip of their nose.
“Faith instead depends only on truth,”
Wrong.
Instead, Faith is not caring about the truth.
Well faith can be a lie. The substantive foundation for right faith is only based upon truth. Faith in a church is questionable. Not so for God. Right faith, though questioned or even attacked, will stand, not weak faith or faith that leads to lies, it collapses into shouting, cursing and insults. My position is having faith in God and His Word. To my mind I know of no other foundation for the advent of true faith. What also is true is you do not question what you have faith in then you have been blinded. It is called blind faith.
So God’s both a pricktease and a pussytease.
Sounds like you’re actually admitting that faith is supposed to continue on with the absence of truth.
Exactly the opposite! Faith has many corridors. The only lasting faith God created is His promise if we do it His way, which takes faith in Him, He will stand with us by having His spirit guide us to success. Our own faith in material things is not the faith He says to have. “Not by might nor strength, but by my spirit.” Man is indomitable, overcomes everything thrown at him. His mind is like no other mind in creation…magnificent…This makes it hard for a man to think he needs God. This is also why morality has sunk to desperate depths. We think we need no one, given the right breaks. That’s is the truth. Its absence leads us to what is wrong in what we are doing!
… until those aliens find and smite us.
Talk about arrogance. We’re not that special. Deal with it.
You deny solid irrefutable evidence all mankind is special. See if a pig can pilot a rocket to the moon. Except for the stupid, those who refuse correction, which covers even the intellectual, they then are not special, they are just ignorant. That is truth not arrogance.
Well, of course not. The pig is unclean.
In what part of the Bible is there a rocket-ship to the moon? After all, there is nothing new under the sun, so its gotta be in there somewhere, right?
How wrong…pigs are no longer unclean since God lowered a sheet down to Peter and told him not to call unclean what HE has cleansed.
The rocket ships of the bible transcends man’s ability. Without scripture opening up to you, you cannot see the fact God speaks from His 1st heaven as we stand under the third heaven we see above us. Paul tells us that. God is depth with enormous height His, and far beyond our understanding. Where God is, is the highest heaven #1. The angels are in heaven #2. WE are under heaven #3. Is that new to you? It is over 2000 years old, but maybe new to you?
No, that nonsense is not new to me. The daydreams of bronze age goatherders don’t really capture my continued attention (not that there’s anything wrong with goatherders; I’m sure many are fine people.)
And that proves we’re somehow special, how?
For all you know, there’s a trillion more species out there that pwn us in every sense of the word.
I will take you to the reason for God creating earth. Heavenly angels fell, Lucifer was thrown out of heaven for his lies and the fact he murdered an angel. I know, you never heard that before. (Ezekiel 28:16. John 8:44) He was thrown to the 1st mass of waters called earth. He is bound there. Then God creates the 2nd earth inside the 1st earth. I know I know I am teaching you something different. Don’t fight it, it requires more teaching to understand this is exactly what happened from what Moses wrote in Genesis one. To go on: On this our earth God creates man and more. The only reason we are created is to overcome Lucifer’s spirit that permeates our existance. This earth is then the center of the universe and man has a mission, kill the lie in you then you kill the liar. There is no other being made in any other galaxy, we are it. Too new, too hard? That is just the kind of depth God has in His Word. It is truth!
It’s like the Simarillion, only not as well written.
I would totally prefer the Silmarillion as a creation narrative.
That’s exactly what I was thinking.
Would make an epic RPG, though.
FWIW, In Nomine is an epic RPG.
Oh? Will check!
Speaking of which, the last answer here made me LOL.
Except for all of the times in History where the faithful perpetrate immoral acts…
E.g. Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, pedophilia, slavery….
And except for the fact that our brains make us think we don’t need god, when according to your beliefs, god made us, including our brains. Why should god make a brain that would make us think we don’t need him, let alone make us deduce he doesn’t exist?
Also, if doing it only his way means having faith in only him, then what about all those who are alive and have never heard his name but who are also living kind moral lives? What about all of those who lived before the time of supposed Jesus, ie all of those cultures Siberia points out above?
Try this: there are two spirits, one good one not. We are told if you do not do the good you know to do you do the bad. In other words there is a fight to do right because there is a powerful spirit that drives you to do wrong. In you are working one or the other and you must understand who is driving you. Deny God and you are practicing as the evil spirit. This why good men go bad. We must show true love for god and the only way man can do it is by fighting evil thoughts and ways. That is the battle of life, the reason man is here.
The morality of under educated man destroys the educated man. He without knowing does what is right before God. Jesus may not be uppermost on his mind, but is implanted in his heart. How can anyone do good if he denies Jesus? The good that is done is of Christ, named or not. The thing is to not judge them but do as they do, then you will know the truth.
You can’t just lump everything you do into “good” and “not good” and call it a day. There are endless circumstances, endless conditions. What may be considered a “good” action in one situation might be considered a “not good” action in another. Still yet, the same action might even be “lesser of two not goods.” It takes a thoughtful person to analyze all the outcomes and a smart person to know what those outcomes will or may be.
Generalities do not count. The decision to do the MORAL good is hard. There is no jumping in or out. Materially speaking what you say it true, but morally it is not that easy to do. There is very little to decide in doing the moral right. We instinctively know the right but do the wrong. Why? It is hard to do what is always morally right. Morality means down to the core ingredient, the smallest of acts and thoughts to not offend any law or person. That is being extremely diligent while being excruciatingly honest with yourself. Man that is hard, yet simple.
Any religion hostile to knowledge is doomed to eventual irrelevance.
Where do you see the denial of knowledge or hostility to it? Isn’t striving to have the knowledge of God critical to high understanding. Not to mention difficult? Do you realize God never created a religion, man did that! God created faith and man finds it too hard. Finding God is by the individual not a church. This is why there are so many religions but only a singular way God gave us.
This is why there are so many religions but only a singular way God gave us.
Which you have conveniently found where billions who have come before you have failed, right?
Our Original Mommy and Daddy were told to not eat ‘fruit of knowledge’ lest they face death. If thats not hostile….
If what it says in the word were true, it would look true. Is god hiding the truth so deeply that everything that looks true has to be wrong since it contradicts the scripture? I mean, that is so simple reasoning, you cannot even do. If god is mighty and everything he says is right, why does the eye see a world where everything he says is wrong? Faith is a hard thing if what you are doing is presuming god that you can’t see beyond everything that you can see. The earth is a planet that revolves around the sun in a galaxy in a universe of awesome vastness, so you are saying that because god says something else is true, you just have to ignore everything you see, not be tempted or fooled by it, and that is faith. God could not simply make the rules comply to his word, then faith would be so easy. He sounds pretty dumb in fact, and powerless, who would have faith in that type of entity? What type of ego can be so willfully stupid and expect people to believe in him?
If a teacher lies to his or her students and if you not only write down these lies to pass the test, but really believe them, it’s the only way to pass. Do not listen to another teacher, only this one. Ignore your own senses, do not open up to any other books or lessons. Faith seems pretty easy in that context. Narrow your focus so it is the only option. Follow blindly and claim to see. It is buried so deep and is so obviously false, that god would make life on earth, and an earth so abundant to have his creatures ignore what’s about them and shut off their senses to have any feeling good about god. Christ, what an asshoIe!
“We are told if you do not do the good you know to do you do the bad.”
I do not see any reason to make the conclusion that “there is a fight to do right because there is a powerful spirit that drives you to do wrong.” Nothing in the situation requires any spirits, and your statement seems to simply mean that we must try our best in each situation to do good, which would be what we know to be good. Also it seems unnecessary to require god to do what is right. I my self am an atheist, but I do not rape and murder. I actually try to help people when I can and avoid doing harm to others even in the simplest actions.
And yes, man did create religion, why should we listen to it when we know the origin and facts therein are untrustworthy?
“Finding God is by the individual not a church.”
If this is true, everyone would know and believe intrinsically, and we wouldn’t have churches spreading gospels.
Yes it is easier to believe a fable storyteller than god.
Because your Gawd sucks at storytelling.
No, you do at understanding what you are living. God help you!
It’s his fault. He made me (according your favorite fable).
Good on you Iscariot for completely ignoring how pwned you got in the last exchange about the sun and now going on with completely different shit. Takes a special kind of ignorance to do that and still believe in your own intellectual honesty. Or maybe you don’t, deep down.
Aw…Come on. If you read all the threads of this conversation you will see the fight against evil is far greater than you realize. It is so easy to do wrong, and man has proven it…No?
…what the devil are you on about?
If you cannot see it, you cannot find it. If you cannot hear it, what then Roger?
If I can’t hear it, or see it or find it, it probably doesn’t exist. Whatever “it” is. So now, what the devil are you on about again?
Quite the opposite, humanity has struggled against its instincts and the stultifying effects of religious prophecy and authority in order to create sophisticated societies in order to instantiate and apply concepts like justice and compassion. We started in caves raping and killing our neighbors for meat and mates, and have succeeded in discouraging these behaviors for the most part by finding better ways to get meat and more egalitarian ways to find mates.
“sophisticated societies in order to instantiate and apply concepts like justice and compassion.” You are kidding! You live in a foreign land away from America. You do realize we stand at the point of devastation materially, while morally we are past the brink and held in the air awaiting the hard landing?! If you deny the truth of today’s news with its secrets being made known regarding the careless discipline the governments of the land have accomplished, what cave do you live in reading by firelight?
Okaaaaay. What exactly are we doing morally wrong that, say, we weren’t doing in 1980? Or 1930? Is production capacity less than it was during the great depression? Is inflation less than during stagflation? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?
Why do you equate materialism with morality? If you really read you should see if you think I do not know what I am saying, that I certainly present new thoughts that are ancient bible. Thinking stuff!
Why do you equate materialism with morality?
I don’t. You raised two “points”: “You do realize we stand at the point of devastation materially, while morally we are past the brink and held in the air awaiting the hard landing?!”, an apparent moral failure and an apparent material failure.
I was pointing out that both points are ridiculous.
Just for kicks, since slavery was considered moral by both the old and new testaments, please tell us more about the morality of slavery.
Added to that, I’d love to hear an explanation for sexual slavery condoned in the bible.
Elemenope: No, you say, that nonsense is not new to me. The daydreams of bronze age goatherders don’t really capture my continued attention (not that there’s anything wrong with goatherders; I’m sure many are fine people.)
NONSENSE? Because you do not see you judge them and not yourself? Where does the nonsense lie? Daydreams do not make hieroglyphics carved into stone walls that is beyond our understanding. Do not be so closed minded nor quick to judge what you may not understand very well.
Daydreams do not make hieroglyphics carved into stone walls that is beyond our understanding.
Uh sure they do. A guy is hanging around, has an idea. Asks or orders a guy with stone chisel to write it down (or if he’s industrious, does it himself). If the guy who has the idea is an important guy or fancies himself to be so, his daydreams are likely to be taken more seriously than they ought to be.
Do not be so closed minded nor quick to judge what you may not understand very well.
There is nothing to understand; if a text makes factual claims that are obviously untrue, it is either a lie or it is fiction. The only way out of such a quandary is to admit that the truths are embedded allegorically or metaphorically.
How do you judge that? Truth stands alone. It never needs any support, but lies need all the support they can find and yet remain weak. Not the truth! Nothing to understand? Remember one other thing, countess thousands may agree with you, but the truth lies in the minority hidden with scripture you deny, like the ole time prophets. “Truths are embedded allegorically or metaphorically” is a twist on the truth. It is the lies that are embedded allegorically or metaphorically twisting in the wind, as God does not lie or deceive!
Why would God hide the truth from the many?
I thought you just made a simple mistake in claiming the Earth is the center of the universe, but I can see from one of your previous posts that you actually do think the Bible teaches geocentrism to be true.
So much for your 3000 years of wisdom. When you hold something which is demonstrably false to be true, it tells us everything we need to know about the authority of your scripture.
Why am I wrong or better why is scripture wrong? This was believed for hundreds of years before Copernicus’ thoughts. You only prove you accept science based upon weak input while not being scientific. I speak of biblical truth, although not a scientist. Yes, science without the bible is simply a theory, but with scripture it is the word of god.
No, science with the bible equates a stagnant society that fears change and hates anything that goes against what those in power think. We’ve tried that approach before and it doesn’t work.
So you are champion the geocentric model, which we can clearly see is wrong with modern astronomy, trips into space and to the moon, meteor showers, and 400 years of progress using the idea that Copernicus had that Newton explained?
Not so. God only created the universe once, not repetitiously. By placing the sun revolving around the earth does not jeopardize NASA. All remains the same as far as science uses it. It is the understanding that is so critical. God came first before the 1st day, man came last in the 6th day. It is for man to understand God rightly. Not the other way around. With all that is happening in heaven above from the picture galleries of Hubble and NASA can we think it is stagnant? But it is not being reproduced. Certainly not from ameliorating faults.
You’re right, what we have isn’t stagnant. The religion + science stagnancy pretty much ended with the renaissance. And I never said anything about the universe being made repetitiously.
It would jeopardize NASA. We can go to the moon because of the laws of physics. The laws of physics, specifically involving gravity, cannot account for the Sun to be orbiting the Earth. If the geocentric model was true, then we would never have been able to make it into space, let alone the horrible unbelieving Russians during the cold war.
And no where in genesis one says the Sun orbits the Earth, all it claims is that the Earth was made before the Sun was. The belief in an Earth centered universe came from Hipparchus, who reasoned that if Earth was moving, we’d see the relative position of the stars change (this is none as parallax shift). The problem is that Hipparchus, and those after him, had no idea that the stars are as far away as they are. The distance is so incredible, that you can’t easily view the parallax shift without modern instruments.
“known” not “none” sorry about that…
Not so…NASA is not effected due to the fact there are 3 gravities: up, down, and horizontal going from right to left. The position of the sun does not effect flight plans. We simply enter into the horizontal and fly within it, around and around we go. Modern instruments are not capable of reaching the remarkable distances we know exist but they do place us furtherest out. You say: “The if the geocentric model was true, then we would never have been able to make it into space.” Your thesis is not true. It is because of the earth being the center of the universe that we are able to space-cruise. All revolving space matter is definable due to this special gravity. And the sun is caught in this gravity.
And you get all this…from the Bible?
The Sun is 333,000 more massive than Earth. If we observed the Sun orbit the Earth it would completely defy our understanding of gravity. It would be the biggest scientific mystery of our time. Yet noone has ever mentioned this problem.
Besides, even if this problem could be explained by your own crackpot theory of gravity, it doesn’t change that a central Earth would mean the planetary orbits would be significantly different. The positioning of any deep space probe uses gravitational slingshotting which depends on knowing the exact movement of the planets and the Sun. A central Earth would mean these celestial bodies wouldn’t be positioned where we expected them to. Every mission would be a failure.
Unless of course NASA and ESA and the whole scientific community are all in a huge conspiracy. I wouldn’t put it past your warped mind to think that was the case.
The Geocentric Model described in Genesis does not have Earth at the “center” of the Universe with the sun rotating around it. Genesis 1 literally says that all the stars in the Universe are contained inside Earth’s atmosphere (firmament).
I’m sure this is a question asked frequently and in many different forms here at UF, but *how* is it that people can insist that something such as geocentrism is true? How is it that people can take the Bible literally and not see its contradictions, or believe its fables are true stories?
I know that they’re not all clinically insane, and “brainwashing” seems too simplistic. We’re talking about a massive number of people, as Peter Iscariot is not alone, and I have to think there’s not just 1 answer to my question. Would administering a truth serum reveal that they don’t truly believe what they claim to believe?
I don’t understand it, but I want to understand it. I want to understand how someone can believe in the fairy tales, how someone can believe in geocentrism. Maybe someone can point me in the direction of a well-respected book or journal article on the topic.
Understand I do not insist on anything. I present from intense bible searching. Then from that I trusted the bible for everything as I grew to understand what it was saying. Then I saw that since the sun was not created until the 4th day, vegetation and trees with fruit of different kinds grew in absolute darkness in the 3rd day. So what then is a “day” according to God? Actually a day by time according to sunset to daylight, did not begin until God made man in the 6th day. Time does not exist for anything else. So the days of creation are days significantly different, they are “Power Periods.” Six powerful periods of incredible design and creation that can only be designated as made by one person, God. In His time, which does not really exist because He is in eternity, His creations have a depth with horizons unseen that only His spirit can reveal to those who thirst after His knowledge.
If you can see this then you have found the book to study and the verses to know. I got it from the bible. It is the only place that covers so throughly creation and steps to where finite man sits on a rock with a core of molten rock blowing thru fissures high up for people to know there is God, a plan, and a way if you seek the knowledge that sustains life as no other book can nor any religion. You found it, now read it as you never read before, read it with your heart! Blessings…pi
Your “interesting” interpretations of the Bible aside, do you have any thoughts on cognitive dissonance?
Change or justify? One, scripture cannot be changed, just lied about. To justify is done by living what it says. Do not steal, do not lie, etc. All men supposedly struggle with their inner do or don’t acts, but being right with God eliminates those fears or worries. And you can be right with Father God without religion but with His Word…one on one. Is it easy? Yes and no! It is easy if you are honest with yourself. It is hard if you are not. The simplicity of having a talk, prayer, with Him as if you were talking to your father who loves you. Pouring out your fears, troubles, and true confessions as to how you think you offended him is the simple day’s work. Then going about doing what you see what you must do from your talk with the Lord God. You do not need a church, priest, or man to lean on, just talk to God every day. He will bring you understanding. He is listening whether you believe it or not. Hope this helps…pi
Thanks. It helped a lot, and you shouldn’t feel the need to reply to any more of my comments.
But, if anyone else would like to chime in regarding my question, I’d appreciate it. Even if you aren’t as, um, wise as Peter.
Everything in the bible is given a value of “true” and everything outside of that is given a value of “false.” Any evidence for the false is obviously then a “lie.” God is god, god is the truth, god has his reasons, lies are from the devil. The evidence for the lies seems clear but once you are certain it is from the devil, you are very cautious to believe it or why it looks more true than the truth. That is how the devil tries to trick you, and then you’re not saved. If you want to be saved, you have to resist the lies even though they are more compellingly sensible.
For another example, let’s pretend you want to lose a lot of weight. You train your mind to think food is going to make you fat, starting with cookies and fast food and increasing to the end with broccoli and eggs and other healthy stuff, so you don’t eat. Eating makes you feel sicker than when you don’t eat and you lose a lot of weight, so your abstinence is visibly justified. Even though you are less healthy, it doesn’t matter as much as being thin. Fatness (the devil) is to be avoided and rejected quickly and the most effectively. Health is not considered, just thinness, just like knowledge is not considered, just salvation. I think once a person has decided what the devil is, they can do whatever is the opposite of that and consider it righteous or willpower or strength, or otherwise succumb to it and feel guilty 100% of the time. It’s just a training of the mind – these are extreme examples, but a lot of us do this cognitive dissonance anyway.
How many of us grown adults still adhere to the household rules of their parents? I think a lot of couples argue over this or that being “the right way” even though they are both valid and compromise would make for a happy marriage/partnership, the temperament of the household is disregarded in favor of winning an argument over which way to wash a dish. I lived with a man who was afraid of using a lot of electricity and forbid me to use the dishwasher that came with our apartment even though I paid half the rent and he didn’t wash any of the dishes, not because of the bills in front of him but because his father raised five children in a big drafty house and was strict about wasting electricity, but between the both of them, spending for liquor on themselves was a justified expense. I grew up in a household where my mother claimed a person’s hands could not withstand the hotness of water necessary for cleaning dishes, and hallelujah, the day she got a dishwasher. I didn’t even know how to handwash a dish, having lived with the convenience of a dishwasher since I was 6 or 7 years old, and avoided doing dishes as much as possible until one day, I won, and he came home with a box of dishwasher soap. Cognitive dissonance is learning too well what your parents taught you but not why it is true or not true, just that anything besides that is the devil, the “wrong way,” a point of honor you just don’t give into, no matter what.
I’m sure we all engage in cognitive dissonance, but I hope that I don’t do it to the degree that Bible literalists do. I hope my cognitive dissonance, which I probably don’t even recognize, is not as harmful to myself and others (promoting beliefs that are patently false or hateful). Over time, I’m confident that we (as a society) are making progress toward a better world (though I think we’re currently losing the battle to make the world more equitable), but religion seems so regressive. And I guess that’s why I’m so concerned with determining how to combat it.
I suppose that one way we can be on guard against our own cognitive dissonance is to expose ourselves to various points of view and diverse environments. There are those who are, simply put, insane. But I also think there are a lot of technically sane folks who manage to avoid exposing themselves to people who are different than they are, who don’t expose themselves to science, to nonfiction, etc. Folks who rarely (if ever) venture more than 50 miles away from their community.
Hi Garrett. I too am fascinated by this question as I was a Pentecostal believer until my early 30′s. I look back amazed that I could believe the crap I believed.
Reason, to the extent that it functions, does so in brain based neural networks. The function of such have developed in ad hoc, jerry-mandered fashion over several billion years and the existence of the reasoning attributes therein is a side effect to the central need for survival and reproduction.
So it’s really no wonder that we are not perfect reasoning machines. It’s amazing that we who reason within the nets are now able to begin, through scientific disciplines, to feather out ways in which neural pathways function. There is, of course, still a long way to go.
The result in my own life has been a deepening of respect for philosophy, reason/logic and especially the scientific method — a systematic process developed as a powerful counterweight to our faulty ‘hardware’. Long live skepticism and may it start at home.
Thanks for the reply, Question. Any reading recommendations?
Garrett, I would start with a book by Antonio Damasio, The Feeling of What Happens. You might also enjoy googling the Trolley Car experiments. Look for both the original sociological studies and also the followup where individuals were asked the same set of questions while undergoing MRI. I also found the research of cognitive dissonance to be quite helpful. Just suggestions really — I’m no expert.
“Power periods”?? So, explain how vegetation was supposed to be able to grow during these “power periods” when there wasn’t any light.
I would have to have sat in God’s lap to answer that one! but scripture says there was no light when God released it on the earth. It had to be dank, dark, and smelly, too putrid to eat,k but again who was there to eat any of it? Reasons to really ponder how deep scripture can take you.
That was absolutely the dumbest thing I’ve read in months. That “response” has to be the result of relying on a collection of Bronze Age myths as scientific truth.
Forget all your bullshit so far, how do you know the Bible is true? All you’ve got is “The Bible says it’s true” from INSIDE THE BOOK ITSELF, which doesn’t count. Why is the Bible more true than the Quran is, or any other religious text (which I might add was what the topic was originally about and you have taken us WAY off course)? Because you didn’t grow up in a majority Islamic country or majority Buddhist country.
I did not divert the course, your comments did that. Your negative response to otherwise insight is a defense of wicker. It created the way, not me.
No. I think brainwashing is about right. Brainwashing may be a simplistic (simple) answer. Doesn’t make it untrue. In fact I think the religious kind is highly sophisticated. As far as reading recommendation: Dennett, Breaking the Spell.
To better understand me, I am an architect of scripture. I have designed the three temples (actually six) but the three main temples (Tabernacle, Solomon’s Temple, and the final temple, the Branch temple of Ezekiel’s) with intense scriptural dimensions in 3D models. It is because I see scripture in 3D the temples have led me on to greater things in the verses of truth. The more I saw the truer the Word became as it led me into greater plains to find the third dimension, depth.
We only read scripture as a 2D product, height and width. but God is three dimensional, as we are, so depth was always there.
Tell me about the temple Peter, where is it now?
There is no temple now, which is why we need the final one for God to be in presence with His chosen people called, the Remnant. Jesus was the last one as He is the temple of God because God was with Him in fullness of the seven Holy Spirits. This is why Ezekiel’s description is so vivid for our day. This temple starts at Ezekiel 40:1 and goes thru several chapters.
A man walking the earth today is being primed to do that work in Israel. It will be placed upon the Temple Mount in the exact position of Solomon’s temple. It is then God will bless the chosen children by pouring out blessings far beyond what King Solomon knew. Make no mistake, trials and tribulations will come and many will fall away, but the wise will trust in the truth and live by it. As holy men each one then becomes a temple and will gather at the temple. Then it will be one Word, one Way, one God and one Son. The greatest time in the history of creation is about to overcome men who believe.
No friend, we are the temple of God now, if indeed we are. Christ in you is the mystery of the ages. You are trying hard to follow a book, rules, to be ‘moral’, to be spiritual, etc but this leaves one a mere ‘religious’ man (having no inward change of nature) as opposed to Christ being your very life and you (that old, inherited man and nature) having ‘died’ on the cross with Christ and now him living in you, as you, the reigning influence, the King’s life emanating from your (temporal) container, ie temple (body). He would dwell within friend.
Peter Iscariot and John C have a crazy-off. Who wins?
No friend, we are in the temple of god now, if indeed we are. Hellooooo, Schrödinger. I do not agree we are, so I’ll say indeed we are not, nor another temple somewhere else later will we gather once we figure out what god wants. There is no christ within, nor waiting for us at this alleged temple. I heard you like Jesus so I put a temple in your temple so you can pray while you pray. I actually think Peter is a little bit crazier this go, he’s packing for a road trip and waiting for the signal, John C is just chilling.
“I heard you like Jesus so I put a temple in your temple so you can pray while you pray.”
Nicely put.
Add in Terry, then things will really be interesting.
It could be Woomonger Crazymatch! A dozen internet godbots enter…one leaves.
Yes, friend John, not no. The insight you have applies to the fact an actual temple does not exist. You see any man with the Christ is a temple, but of sorts. It is as if he is just entering in communion with the spirit of Christ, only he faces man. All men do today is what Christ designed, we walk in His spirit changed to serve Him. If not, we do not know Him.
What I posited is the new actual temple that scripture is calling for. Ezekiel is not a liar, he speaks for God. His temple has to come, but it has been ignored mostly by Christianity, but not the Jew. Therefor it has railroaded eschatology off into an unreasonable siding. That is another discussion.
You are twisting my comments into a religious statement and accusing me of believing too much in THE BOOK. You misread me. You present the weakness of man by calling it a mystery. How far from the truth that is! How mysterious can be by knowing Christ is not here, so He works by His spirit. That is not a mystery! I do not want to go into all the scripture about the spirit right now. From what I say you cannot name my “religion” for it can be either Jew of Christian or both.
If you look at The Book only, you will discern extreme scriptural verses concerning three main temples. The Tabernacle of Moses, Solomon’s temple and the temple in Ezekiel. Two have been built, one stands ready to be built. The Book says so, so accuse me of what error when I repeat what it is clearly saying. We are both right to a degree. There is the spiritual, there is the actual, they are not the same.
“The Jew” – Thank you for proving that you’re racist as well as batshit insane.
Candidly, in sincerity, you’ve been led astray Peter, the spirit of error, confusion is in play here. I know Truth (Himself) and I have not, as of yet heard his voice in your many words. Your creation/garden conclusions have been tainted/filtered through an unrenewed mind, you’re not (yet) seeing in a true Light and you speak of a thing called ‘morality’ which is a duality, is not in the one (divine) nature, requires a performance on our part.
If that wasn’t enough, you are easily offended which means you are living ‘from’ a false identity, ie your own, and so are still very much alive to self, that which He came to set the captives (us) free from. You don’t (yet) comprehend the message, the truth, have not yet entered in, though for now you masquerade, are content to wallow in a false spirituality that exalts, stretches the mind of man and so appeals to and strengthens the prideful, the adamic.
Additionally, you are caught up in some grandiose, future, external ‘building’ fund or sorts, ie ‘temple’, its all a fruitless, most (spiritually) unprofitable quagmire indeed.
Man is ultimately caught by what he chases, what (exactly) is it that you are chasing friend? So far you have only reaped a whirlwind (of confusion, of futility). Journey on friend, the compass points north, true north.
It is always easier to say I am led astray when it can be said of you. How do you judge me so, by your beliefs? Then how can I be wrong by doing the same thing? It is my renewed mind by the spirit of God that enables me to speak of things to consider leading to increased knowledge. Why do you distain knowledge that may be a little beyond yours?
Know morality is dualistic. It is either good or bad, and you should know that; so where is the light in you? You paint words with a broad brush since you do not know me. You assume, and you know how that works. You desperately want to find my weakness, but how can you when you deny a more salient presentation that is new to you. Your refusal to accept what you did not know proves how weak you are, for you fight knowledge that does not jibe with yours. That makes you very wrong, but without effect upon me and my presentations.
Your words are tainted. Your thinking reflects an education that is shallow at best regardless of degrees. You have to deny truth to believe what you think, and only God is the truth as Jesus says only He is right. That puts you at odds with what I present along with God, and Jesus. Why not join us in a more intelligent discussion rather than outrage assumptions of me or my character?
As far as being offended by insults know they are not part of a good discussion. They are meaningless to me and I defect them, other than to say it shows a lack of respect, and an inability to express one self. Respect should be upper most for the intercourse of good info.
*watches from the sidelines in awe*
I followed your numerous comments last night for a long while prior to any discerning on my part friend. I have no need to ‘find your weaknesses’ as you put it, self is the greatest weakness and you are unfortunately still full of your Self life and that sir, is mankind’s dilemma. On the contrary, I would have been delighted to find a spiritual man in the making, but it quickly became apparent that would not be the case here.
Yes, you are misaligned I can plainly see, can point out in truth, in sincerity without malice yet still I honor you, your journey and wish you all the very best, respectfully.
John C: “I’m the one who knows Jesus like nobody else, he’s my special friend, not yours!”
Peter Iscariot: “NO! I’m the one who knows Jesus like nobody else, he’s my special friend, not yours!”
Rinse and repeat X1000.
The truth is that you’re both self-righteous, sanctimonious and mentally ill.
So far, we have all reaped a whirlwind of confusion and futility! That’s not how you fold towels! This is why we can’t have nice things.
http://www.seinology.com/scripts/script-39.shtml
What kind of puny god is restricted to 3D?
Where did I say that?
“God is three dimensional, as we are”
Where did I say that? When He walked with Adam and Eve He is three dimensional just like us, but the BIBLE is two dimensional with only height and width of every page. What is hard about that? That He has the potential of being multi dimensional, if it exists and if it does only He creates it, means God does more than we think. That is my point in this long thread.
And what I see in the Word that has caused a fire storm with name calling and curse words shows how little depth there is the arguments against my claims. No one has been able to destroy my varied points yet. All can yell as loud as they want but they get nowhere. Many piles of words that meander loosely do not a critical statement make. Claiming man’s intellect is just as casual.
The avalanche of words from many corners show how widely the disparity between the BIBLE is, and man proves the egregious assaults against God by the DEVIL. Take it or not, if you deny the Word of God you are the one very, very confused.
BIBLE says in Proverbs 12:1, “Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid.” I was not even trying to correct just inform. That is something all the BIBLE disbelievers, haters of God, cursers who condemn my intellect, and name callers have to handle!
You are not arguing with me you argue with yourself in trying to make firm positions of what is so flimsy. And all arguments against what I have said is so. You argue against yourself, I instead argue for you. I am a better friend to you then you are to yourself. I share knowledge that increases scriptural intellect. You share cave drawings scribbled by many deceived practitioners who deny God; trouble is you believe them and not what is of God.
And if you are not stupid, you will see what I’ve written is far more meaningful than all the loose intellect displayed. Stop cursing, end name-calling, and think rationally. Is it possible one man can know something worth more for all opposing him? Yes, and its all from the BIBLE…pi
Sorry if I don’t exactly regard your nonsense as divinely inspired. It’s probably because I’m quite used to the various idiosynchracies of Christian fundies: the insistence on how you – as opposed to everybody else – hold the Truth; the need to evangelize despite being asked not to; the judgemental tone; the persecution complex that springs into action whenever someone contadicts you; the mindless classification of everything into absolute, dualistic categories; the use of Satan as a scapegoat for anything; the general esoteric nonsense of your faith; the total disregard of any factual counter-arguments.
You pass it all with flying colors, although I must give you credit that you have been remarkably restrained in flinging Bible verses around. Most other fundies can’t help themselves in that regard.
Besides the usual trivial noises you have however been making extraordinary claims about the Sun orbiting the Earth, which is quite something. It takes a special kind of mind to be that willfully ignorant. Not to mention how such shallowmindedness limits the god you believe in. How small and impotent he seems when you describe the things he’s unable to do, like creating a universe where things actually are what they look like. You think your blind reverence honors God, but you are instead insulting him by dragging him down through your ignorance.
But I see that any reasonable argument, and in fact any common fact, is wasted on you, so I’ll just leave you to wallow contentedly in the pitiful mess you yourself have constructed and comically uphold as absolute, God-given truth.
Why waste time arguing with a guy who shares his last name with a supposed traitor?
:P
Waaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha! Piscariot and JC have a crazy-off; Piscariot wins by a “certifiable” margin!
Right now, I am very happy that John C is our resident christian.
He is by no means the only resident Christian, but he is of far greater quality than this Peter Iscariot character, for sure.
Thanks to Question and nomad for the reading recommendations. I’ll check them out.