Christian archeologists claim they’ve found Noah’s Ark:
A group of Chinese and Turkish evangelical explorers say they have found wooden remains on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey.
They claim carbon dating proves the relics are 4,800 years old — around the same time the ark was said to be afloat.
eung Wing-Cheung, from the Noah’s Ark Ministries International research team, said: “It’s not 100 per cent that it is Noah’s Ark, but we think it is 99.9 per cent that this is it.”
He said the structure contained several compartments, some with wooden beams, that they believe were used to house animals.
The group of evangelical archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement on the grounds none have ever been found above 11,000ft in the vicinity, Yeung said.
I’m sure they’ve found something, but Noah’s Ark? Not a chance.
Maybe on their next dig they’ll find the Holy Grail and the Fountain of Youth!
Given that at least a half-dozen other explorers have already found Noah’s Ark, maybe it was a fleet, rather than a single ship?
Aardvark: The species that launched a thousand ships.
According to my fundie cow-orker, carbon dating is only accurate to about 6000 years. Anything beyond that, like dino fossil, the technique is off by millions of years.
Carbon-14′s half-life is 5,730 years, and not used to date anything millions of years old.
Your fundie co-worker has a point. He’s off by an order of magnitude, though. Carbon dating is accurate to 50,000 – 80,000 years. Above that range, all you’ll get out of it is a big flashing “too old to be dated by this technique”.
Fortunately, there are many other radioisotopes which have longer half-lives that we *can* use to date dinosaur bones. Potassium-Argon dating, for example, can be used on samples between 100,000 years and 10,000,000,000 years. Uranium-Lead dating has a useful range of 1,000,000 to 5,000,000,000 years.
Mind you, I’m willing to bet that his logic isn’t anything to do with half-lives or decay sequences, but is simply “the world is only 6,000 years old, therefore all dates older than that must be false, somehow”.
Christians: “Carbon dating is not accurate!*”
*Unless it supports Christian beliefs.
You beat me to it.
Idiots. Complete idiots.
Well, I guess we’ll just have take this with a grain of salt because I’m pretty sure this is the second or third time they’ve found it. On the same mountain.
Sure, sure. Yeah, Noah’s ark? Yeah, it’s right next to Eden. Yep. In the Middle East or something. Yeah, just look for a mountain. Nothing else makes sense. That’s gotta be where it is. A desert is the FIRST place the flood would dry up!
Christian arkeologists claim
There, I corrected your spelling.
Thank you for that. As an actual archaeologist, I have to say that I threw up a little when I saw the story.
Eung Wing -Chung from the Noah’s Ark Ministries International Research team!! (that part was made up right??)
I’m amazed how quickly some of you are to dismiss this find. Just because it seems outrageous does not mean that it couldn’t have happened. History has proven this truth time and time again. Keep your skepticism, but don’t let it keep you from maintaining an open mind.
Did you plan to give us some examples? How has history proven the ark existed over and over again?
What’s dismissible here is this organizations’ methodology . Pray tell, on what empirical basis are they not 100% but 99.99% certain?? Perhaps they submitted their findings to the 10,000 leading arkeologists and only one was unconvinced?
Sure. Off the top of my head:
1) Troy
2) Lighthouse in Alexandria
3) Lost City of Ramses
To clarify, I believe the grandparent was not saying this had to be true, just that it was *possible*. My examples are other places/buildings which were at different times assumed to have never existed outside of stories.
Hence:
The existence of those things did not defy the laws of physics, nor the findings of several centuries of geology and biology.
They were simply things we hadn’t found, yet.
The global flood is not only a thing for which no evidence has been found, but it both the laws of physics, and half a millennium of scientific discovery. They are not the same at all.
Should be: “but it both *defies* the laws of physics, and half a millennium of scientific discovery.”
If someone said he found the golden apple thrown between the goddesses, now that would be an archaeological find
Of course, those were utterly mundane discoveries that didn’t overturn everything we know about physics…
Troy
Tricky one. First, I don’t know if there was much skepticism about the existence of Troy. It’s logical for a city to be located there, there are records of the Hittite Empire interacting with a city named Troy, etc.
Second, despite the fact that they’ve found a city named Troy, there’s still a lot of debate as to whether or not the Trojan war actually happened. So it comes down to a question of identity: if the city we found was never at war with the Mycenaean empire, is it really the Troy.
But they surely found the bones of great heroes like Agammenon or Aquiles (that last one in a perfect state of conservation appart from his heel). And the remainings of a wood horse.
Oh, wait, the only thing wich is true in that history is that the city existed and -maybe- it was a war? No evidences for supernatural claims? Yeah, exactly like finding Noah’s Ark.
Skepticism and an open mind are the same thing.
If this guy presents some evidence that what he has is actually *is* Noah’s Ark (rather than just asserting it), then of course we’ll examine it with an open mind and see what the evidence actually suggests. Just like we examined the evidence of geology, meteorology and naval engineering to conclude that a global flood is impossible, and that a boat big enough to hold all the animals couldn’t be built out of wood.
Skepticism is not the same thing as an open mind. They aren’t mutually exclusive, but they aren’t the same thing. Think about it.
I have to agree. But on the same merit, can’t a person BE open-minded and skeptical at the same time?
Also, dismissing something like this is hardly “closed-minded”.
“But on the same merit, can’t a person BE open-minded and skeptical at the same time?”
Yup.
“Also, dismissing something like this is hardly “closed-minded””
Also yup.
Mind slightly ajar.
Uh… sure? That still sounds a lot like “narrow-minded” though. Or was that your intention!?
*dramatic face*
It was an attempt to be cheeky, but my point was that a door (metaphorical or literal) can be in a state between closed and wide open, and in this context, perhaps that is the most desirable state. Being amenable to entertaining verifiable evidence that might cause a reevaluation of certain beliefs is entirely different from credulously swallowing every damn fool thing one reads, and is also different from being obstinate in the face of compelling reasons to change.
Aha! I thought that was along those lines. I’m just always paranoid of being insulted.
Nice summary btw.
Jon – you are confusing ‘open-minded’ with ‘credulous’. An open mind is an inherent part of skeptcism – us skeptics simply demand evidence appropriate to the claim.
@ JonJon: do YOU believe the flood occurred? Why or why not?
Not a geologist.
Just to be a smart ass (one of my major strengths) has anyone else wondered why meteorology is the study of weather rather than the study of meteors?
Even if a hull were found that was the correct age would that prove that the hull was indeed the Ark or that the flood had happened? Mountain ranges rise in sometimes very short geologic time scales and many mountains contain evidence near their peaks of having once been part of a sea bed. Ever since world war 2 when some pilot spotted something he couldn’t explain on Ararat we have been having people swear that this time they really found the ark. Everytime when examined by folks not mesmerized by religion it has failed to live up to the hype. This is just the next contestant in the game.
From here:
Stuff right up there is all meteors. Study of it is meteorology. The confusing part is that what are now referred to as meteors are actually farther away than originally thought, so not part of our atmosphere, and none of the other meteors are called meteors anymore, at least not familiarly. Second thing I want to say is whenever anyone wonders something, if I feel like it, I go look it up so I know the answer to it. Sure it seemed like a driveway/parkway question but it’s etymology! I did not ever wonder this before, but I did reason there was etymology involved and it was nothing to worry about.
The more you know…
LOL
Thank you, I knew there had to be a rational answer and I always love adding more information to my stockpile of facts. (I really rock at trivia games)
” Mountain ranges rise in sometimes very short geologic time scales and many mountains contain evidence near their peaks of having once been part of a sea bed”
Indeed. But very short geologic time doesn’t mean about 5k years, we can found fossils of ocean creatures in rocks in the Himalayas and Alps, but they are at least 15 million years old (when the tethys ocean closed)
When you say that the Himalayas and Alps are 15 million years old that doesn’t say how long they took to rise. That is not the same as saying that it took 15 million years to rise.
That’s not what Francesc’s post says. It says that the fossils are 15 million years old.
wintermute: “…and that a boat big enough to hold all the animals couldn’t be built out of wood.”
Can a boat big enough to hold ALL the animals and their fodder be built, let aside the question of the material? I think this was always the point.
You can find thousand of wooden boats remains (not many of them in a mountain, though), but this doesn’t prevent the Noah’s Ark story to be absurd.
It does not prevent skepticism to an absurd reply.
Well, sure. You could build a boat that big. Providing you can use modern materials, like steel reinforced with carbon nanotubes. Or if you don’t care about it sinking.
One or the other.
It look like there was a good reason to be skeptic. even known arkeologists claim it was a fake .
i am 99.99 percent sure i have the easter bunny’s wisdom tooth. if you dont believe me, ask me!
is it in a box that only you can look into and see whats inside, and to everyone else the contents are invisible?
I mean, a boat’s a boat, but the mystery box could be anything. It could even be a boat! We’ll take the box.
Like.
…because the only wood that existed 4,800 years ago was wood that was build into a ship by commandments of God Almighty that stored the entire breeding population of planet earth.
Duh.
Here’s their site, but it’s in Chinese and takes forever to load: http://www.noahsarksearch.net/ I was looking for more pictures, but everywhere there only seems to be that one. If it’s any indication, whatever it is, it’s in awfully good shape for being so old. Which isn’t impossible, BTW. I’d just like to know why we don’t have more pictures. That seems a little suspicious.
On the other hand, if that does turn out to be the ark of Noah, or Gilgamesh, or Ziusudra–or not–all we have to do is sit back and wait. The truth will come out in time.
A story passed down from generation to generation does tend to become exagerated (The book of Genesis was not written down until durring Moses’ time before that it was an oral tradition as were most stories during that time).
Interestingly enough, there seems to be a common flood myth in every major culture (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html), so logically one of two things is going on:
1. God did wipe out all men with a terrible flood and all these stories stem passed down from the same surviving family.
2. or more likely could it be that the Ark may have just held all the animals from that area of the world? That the loving God depicted in the bible would have spoken to good men from all the corners of the earth, each saving the species from their area?
Did you actually read anything at the link you posted? Those are not the only two options, nor even two very good ones. Talk Origins has some very good discussions on the much more likely origins of flood mythology.
I followed the link and I can see clearly prove that only 2 women got killed in the flood by god and the rest of humanity survived:
Narrinyeri (South Australia):
A man’s two wives ran away from him. He pursued them to Encounter Bay, saw them at a distance, and angrily cried out for the waters to rise and drown them. A terrible flood washed over the hills and killed the two women. The waters rose so high that a man named Nepelle, who lived at Rauwoke, had to drag his canoe to the top of the hill now called Point Macleay. The dense part of the Milky Way shows his canoe floating in the sky. [Frazer, p. 236]
Lol of course not all are credible or even related, but enough of them are to where I can raise and eyebrow and see a connection. I am not a creationist in the literal sense (i.e I believe one day to God and easily mean millions or billions of years for us). But if you actually read the old texts you can easily see there is a lot of truth behind the metaphors. Keeping an open mind actually means seeing both sides of the coin!
So you’re an Old-Earth Creationist, and you think the concept of “day” can be abstracted from planetary rotation? Maybe God lives on a planet that rotates very slowly?
Well, it’s true that people tend to settle in places that can flood. Something to do with wanting access to clean water, maybe.
But, really, if God is speaking to these people with sufficient clarity that they’re able to coordinate a global effort to rescue all the animals (but not people) from drowning, why did they all (presumably with the exception of the religion you follow) get every single other detail wrong? Why do some of them attribute the flood to multiple gods, or think that it was a natural occurrence? Why do some of them think it was the work of an evil god that a good good saved a few of them from? Why is “rescuing the animals” mentioned in so few of them?
It also means weighing the evidence, and coming to a defensible conclusion. Thinking that you just don’t know if an invisible elephant is living in your sock drawer is not being open minded.
There was actually a great flood. In fact there have been many of them, at different times, all over the planet for millions and millions of years. They are called megafloods, and you find a brief synopsis about them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28prehistoric%29
More than likely, primitive tribes of human beings would have been in or near many of these areas when the floods occurred and would have been affected by them. This explains why there are “great flood” stories across many different cultures.
Also, many tsunamis have occurred throughout the Earth’s history (due to earthquakes, landslides, etc). These would have likewise affected, and been recorded by, the many cultures who lived near oceans.
All of these floods are understood and attributable to natural geologic processes, not non-existent supernatural forces.
yes, & if you are in an unpopulated area & your tribe only knows of your local territory, a large flood or tsunami IS the whole world, for your own practical purposes.
well. sure. a lot of metaphors have truth behind them. That’s the point, right? To say a truth in another way, so it’s available to a wider audience? But choosing different language for the purposes of making a point understandable is quite different from saying – see, you could follow this back to the truth.
Or 3:
People tend to settle near water, so flooding is a common problem. A pretty obvious tall-tale/legend/fantasy story/myth in that environment would be one of a massive flood covering the known world (which was considerably smaller than the actual size of the planet)
Bingo!
Raymond, I’m not quite sure how to put this, but: Most of Europe, Asia and Africa suffers from time-to-time with an occasional local flood. Some of them are quite bad. So, do you not think that the most likely source of the flood myth is the option which you didn’t list? That is:
3. Lots of isolated peoples had oral histories of floods which effected the areas in which they lived, and as their populations grew, moved and merged, lots of oral histories about different floods became amalgamated into a “global flood” myth.
You talk about “all the animals from that part of the world” as though that explains the whole thing. Is God omnipotent or is he not? Was he only the “God” of one valley or something?!
You’ve accepted that the “global flood” myth cannot possibly be true, now take the next step and stop trying to rationalise it. Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necesitate. Never truer than when discussing the myth of Noah.
No wonder there are many flood myths in different cultures. The last ice age ended like 10,000 years ago, increasing the sea levels all over the world. No doubt it caused catastrophic floods for some populations nears the costs, which the survivors would interpret like divine punishment, and incorporte them in their folklore.
Ice age? 10,000 years ago? Another trick by satan to throw off the scientists. ;-)
And don’t forget that a lot of the buybull is plagiarized from older Mesopotamian and Egyptian myths.
It would be just as absurd to say it was Utnapishtim’s Ark. Funny how Christians can speak of “Greek myths” or “Norse myths” etc. but of course non of that applies to THEM.
Ya, exactly!
A find by explorers who explain it in terms of their ancient christian myth.
Love the “Ark” photo! Waaaaaahahahahahaha! Snickering and laughing as I type.
God is all powerfull all knowing he is the beginning and the end the alpha and the omega the first and the last nothing in the bible is a myth and all of the cultures that have these flood stories are to similar to eachother to be all different stories about different people i feel so sorry for you when THE LORD of everything ever created comes back you will be sorry God is a loving God but he will not spare u when all u do is try to prove that he doesnt exsist with no evidence worth anything Youll say theres no possible way that God exsists and and all the wonderful things he has done hasnt happend yet the bible has never been proven wrong and never will be if u believe then when he comes back he will reveal everything u need to know i hope this changes ur mind about God it was predicted in the bible that Israel will become a nation agian and what happend in 1948 um Israel become a nation that is just one of countless examples that God exsists i know for a fact he does he has changed my life in ways know one can ever imagine i have this peace and love about the world that is so amazing and powerfull he has given me everything he is everything so to all that dont believe in him u are so ignorant and sorry for all the missed spelled words and improper grammer im typing really fast but God will give u everything if u let him
blah blah blah block of meaningless text blah.
Thanks for stopping by.
Does the Bible prohibit punctuation and sanity?
And another reply to Garrett!
It doesn’t, but lot of christians are illiterate. Or just plain ramble.
I present far better evidence than any christians have for their beliefs: their illiterate, inane, sometimes name-calling or hateful, or meandering rambles on this blog.
jdog, that was a very sad post you shared with us. Good luck.
And no, punctuation is not ungodly and does help with clarity.
Are you sure? Methinks there has to be some bible quote about the evilness of grammar.
Oh in that case, I’m now convinced that they found Noah’s ark.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
In the End Times all punctuation will disappear.
The punctuation has been raptured!
Hah-leh-loooooooo-jahs!
And we’ve been left behind. Let’s party :-)
I’ve always liked the idea of the rapture. I live in the deep south, at the buckle of the bible belt and I think a world where are the evangelicals suddenly went poof and disappeared would be a truly wonderful thing.
jdog types like hes like 12 yeah um im pretty sure of that
Aaaannnnnnnd…… the death shroud was over Jesus’ face, and that old square nail was from his hands, and that chunk of petrified wood was from his cross (oh boy, a souvenir of capital punishment!), and the grail *mmphhhh* *snerk* waaaaahahahahahahaha!
How do these idiots get credibility? Archeology and study and making hypotheses (which lead to more study to check them) are fine, but these ASSumptions aren’t. *Obviously* they’re “evangelical explorers” who are predictably going to come to evangelical ASSumptions.
They don’t GET credibility, they are GIVEN it. That’s why all this chatter amongst ourselves feels so pointless sometimes….sure, someone can say anything, the amazing thing is there are people out there who will believe them. You’re left sitting there slapping your forehead, stuck on “where are their brains?!”
Here’s a thought. Assuming they really did find something, and that it really is in the shape of a big ship of some sort, why could it not be a temple of some kind, say to the ancient Chaldaean moon-god El, who was thought to sail in a boat across the sky? What if the stories of Noah’s Ark are in fact, in addition to being based on local flood myths, also a skewed history from a time when this temple might have been a fairly well-known structure? Maybe it was meant as a place where priests, or maybe a monastic order, could go to commune with this deity.
Would that be more far-fetched than assuming it just has to be Noah’s Arc?
No. In fact it would more reasonable. Finding a shrine and finding a magical wooden ship that housed every living land creature on the planet, are two pretty different things. Finding this is like finding Thor’s mighty hammer.
But that is impossible, because I have it.
Museum Replicas? You get the modern one or the Silver-Age Kirby design?
Didn’t you get what the Christian archaelogists said? They’re 99.9% certain it’s the Ark. So obviously it must be. It’s a mathematical fact that the odds of them being wrong is only 1 to 1000.
No, it was meant to replicate the huge spaceship that brought the aliens to earth – don’t ya’ll keep up with Mormon or Scientological scripture?
Silver age of course.
There will never be any empirical evidence found to substantiate matters of faith, whether there is a ‘God’, etc since the higher is not dependent/contingent upon the lower realm for its existence, but the other way around. There is no end-run or shortcut around faith, childlike, foolish, risky faith, for by it is the very means to ‘know’, unreasonable as that ‘appears’ to you.
This is also the reason that the shroud of Turin, when carbon dated (empirically) was sampled for testing in an area of the cloth that, unknown to them had later (post fire) been woven into the damaged original cloth around the 13th-14th century and can never be (accurately) tested again due to the preservation material its been enclosed in ever since (except for a brief, recent display). Just how did that form and face get imprinted on that 14th century shroud so vividly, lastingly? Kinko’s? Even objective investigators can’t tell you how that image got there, can’t even begin to explain it although some very biased ‘scientists’ have come up with all kinds of ‘opinions’.
So even if this is the Ark (was it literal, allegorical, neither, both ha) it will never be proven for that would nullify one’s need to have any faith for…’those who come to God must believe that He is, and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek after (to know) Him’. Heb 11:6
There are so-called ‘Christian archeologists’ who search for artifacts, etc hoping to ‘prove’ God’s existence, biblical record, etc. It won’t work, man will never be able to ‘prove’ God in that (material) way. He can, however demonstrate physically, ie manifest His life and nature (Col 3:3, 1st Jn 1:1&2) through man’s ‘vessel’ or ‘temple’ wherein the treasure (Christ) is found.
There are no shortcuts, only One…Way.
> “Even objective investigators can’t tell you how that image got there, can’t even begin to explain it although some very biased ’scientists’ have come up with all kinds of ‘opinions’.”
Wrong. It’s been reproduced recently, so we know how it can be done. That’s the power of experiments and resarch. You want do deny it can be done, but your opinion doesn’t matter in the face of facts.
PS: could you tone down the preaching, please?
So tell us TRJ, how (exactly) was it done…back then?
Google is your friend.
Look it up.
Is your name TRJ? Ha, all the best TY’ster!
Here is a link I googled up.
Which proves nothing as it doesn’t agree with the truth that is already know. Of course if it does agree then it’s obvioulsy right. For example …
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6601375.ece
Great example, Jabster. Set of bones found while building the Basilica? Oh, well, it must be fate! It’s Saint Paul, obviously!
*facepalm*
Of such blind and bland assertions, religious faith is built.
So, instead of looking it up and learning something, you decided to try a lame zinger.
Ignorance is not a virtue, John.
Depends Ty, sometimes the things that ‘appear’ to be valid/truthful, actually are not, and the things that ‘appear’ to be foolishness are actually/paradoxically the wisdom of God, I know, makes no sense, is not reasonable.
When we suffer from ‘Unfaithable Reason’ in the things of the Spirit we only ‘think’ we see in truth, but in the end it turns out to be a mere mirage, a dastardly sleight of hand trick. That’s what the deathly ‘fruit’ (of self will) did, made the lie ‘appear’ as the truth. The only Remedy is to dine once again, this time on the flesh, the blood, the fruit of the True Vine so that we might be grafted back in to that original, one tree (there were two tree’s in the ‘garden’). Does wonder’s for our ‘eyesight’, removes the “I” altogether which blocks our ability to see in a true Light.
Offensive? Love spares no offense in His efforts to love us back into the truth, will offend our minds to reveal our hearts. Blessed is he who is not offended by Me, ie the Truth (Himself).
All the best Ty.
Block of text aside, ignorance is still not a virtue, John.
‘block of text aside’
Love it! ha, translation ‘BS aside’ ha, love ya man! :))
Good to see you’re catching on, John.
I find it kind of ironic that for all your disdain of religion and the deal of inchristing and whatever, you still fall on the Church’s deception. Why should it matter if the magic blankie is or isn’t 2000 years old? You know the truth, don’t you? The physical shouldn’t matter at all.
Siberia, that’s a great point, let me explain. As you’ve noticed and so astutely pointed out, I am not much for ‘historical Christianity’, ie artifacts, etc. With regards to the shroud claims of authenticity, etc, I do believe it to be the genuine article, is a ‘gut’ sense intuition, that’s all. I was a very young believer when the shroud investigation began and there was an inward knowing, a witness if you will that this mysterious figure was indeed the physical, the incarnate Christ.
Nowadays (after hopefully maturing a bit, which means growing down ha) I just look in the mirror when I want to ‘see’ Him, where He lives (2 Cor 3:18) ha.
All the best Ms. Siberia!
So…. What you’re saying is, you’re gullible and fell for it – and that counts as “evidence” to you? Seriously, do you *ever* smell what you’re shoveling?
John C,
You’re a Poe, right? C’mon, you can admit it. You’ve had your fun. It’s time to fess up.
If not, do you communicate in the same way in ‘real life’? If so, what kind of a reception do you get? Do you live by yourself? Are you married? What do/did you do for a living? That’s really none of my business and you certainly don’t have to answer my queries, but I thought I’d ask just the same.
Garrett…
I’m happy to answer friend. No, I’m not a Poe, have been around a while, the forum faithful know me well (some are even pleasant, civil to me if you can believe that, ha, I love them all very much). I suppose you find it unimaginable that someone could actually believe and live like this eh? The problem is religion, that’s the great impostor. Of course I don’t speak like this in everyday life, on the job etc, only when I share/teach on the things of the spirit-led life, then it becomes quite natural, native even. Feels like my original language.
Work? I’ve been in the medical field in some capacity my entire ‘career’. Radiology, medical imaging, diagnostics, MRI, CT, X-ray etc as a Technologist, Manager, medical sales of high end capital equipment, owner of a medical imaging facility. Currently I’m in the cellular sciences, bio-tech industry.
I’m divorced, was married very young just out of high school and have four wonderful kids mostly grown now (I just turned 47 a few days ago) and one 3 yr old precious granddaughter. Yes, I live alone, spend my time reading, listening to good music (all genre’s, well almost, not much of a rap fan ha). I love acoustic guitar, classical, rock, some Christian (just not the cheesy, bubble-gum stuff). I am also working on a project, a ‘vision’ if you will, a visually rendered, 3D graphic story of sorts with a professional designer that I spend a lot of time on, am trying to ‘give birth to’ if you know what I mean. Hope I answered your questions to your satisfaction, I tried.
All the very best to you Garrett, take care.
Waaaaahahahahahahahaha! I am trying not to laugh too loudly in this library. Poor Garret… I know, he just can’t be real, it seems. Unfortunately, he is. Life is stranger than fiction.
No. It’s a poe, just refusing to break character.
It’s long past being funny and its best to just ignore and never respond to any of it’s posts.
“There will never be any empirical evidence found to substantiate matters of faith”
Yeah, we know.
No, the fire damage was well known, had been thoroughly documented at the time it happened, the patches were visually obvious, and both the scientists and the supervising bishops were motivated to be sure that undamaged sections were tested. The idea that they had accidentally tested a fire damaged section was an ad-hoc explanation as to why it turned out to be new, with no supporting evidence. The irony is that the person who first proposed this (so far as I’m aware) had tested the lignin content of the cloth (look at that! a later test that you claim could have never happened!). Lignin turns into vanillin over time, so his measurements said that assuming the shroud had not been exposed to high temperatures (which would speed up the change), it must be at least 2,000 years old. Therefore, the C14 samples must have been from patches used to repair fire damage! And people take him seriously…
Plus, the weaving pattern of the cloth is one common in the 14th Century by utterly unknown in 1st Century Palestine; it contains pollen from plants native to Eastern Europe and not Palestine (these gathered from across the cloth, as it’s a non-destructive technique) that date to the 14th Century; the pigment on the cloth is iron ochre, a red paint commonly used in the 14th Century and dated through magnetic spin resonance to the 14th century.
Oh, and the image obviously doesn’t correspond to it having been wrapped around someone’s face. And there was a roaring trade in fake shrouds in the 14th Century – presumably you don’t think there was anything miraculous about the other shrouds that got bought and sold at that time; why is this one any different?
No, you missed the point Winter, it wasn’t that it was a fire damaged section, it was simply not an original sample, that (divinely chosen ha) portion which they sampled was added on in the 13-14th century, was not part of the original shroud, did not date back to the original cloth. It matters not, you can’t know this (empirical) way, ever.
No, I didn’t miss the point.
Have you ever tried weaving new threads into old cloth without it being noticeable? When the cloth is so old that it won’t bend?
There’s no evidence that the five (yes, five) samples they tested were not original material, and the claim that they were is simply an ad-hoc rationalisation for the fact that it turned out not to be 2,000 years old. And besides, if they had been divinely inspired to choose the exact wrong spot to test, why would God have been so worried about it being discovered to be 2,000 years old? Would that be inconclusive proof that Jesus was the son of God or something? Why didn’t he futz with the various purported fragments of the True Cross, some of which have been carbon dated to 2,000 years old?
And what explanation do you have for the weaving pattern, pigment, pollen, and history all being consistent with a creation in Eastern Europe in the 14th Century, and not at all consistent with it being from 1st Century Palestine? Did God sneak down and replace the blood samples with red paint just before they went in the spectrometer?
Wintermute didn’t miss the point at all … the evidence points to the fact it’s not even 2,00 years old let alone the shroud of Jesus. Now lets look at your line of reasoning. Oh I see how it works, it is 2,000 years old and any evidence that contridicts this is obviously wrong. Of course if the evidence validated it then it would be right. In conclusion you mindset is that evidence is only right if it agrees with the “facts” that you already know to be true. Do you understand how stupid this sounds?
the thing that makes me laugh about this line of reasoning is how it works if you invert it. If the scientific tests had shown the “shroud” to be 2000 years old and to contain human blood, would blinkered christians be saying, “science can’t prove anything”. No they’d be jumping up and down in glee.
The shroud is fully debunked now, and was one of many shrouds popular at the time. Funny how it isn’t mentioned anywhere in literature until the middle ages!!
Logical argument with these people is not possible.
You missed a big point. The guy in the cloth can be impossibly jezus.
This jezus is an European not someone from Israel.
You mean Jesus wasn’t a white, long haired European male? I bet next you’ll be saying he didn’t speak good KJV English. ^_^
” It won’t work, man will never be able to ‘prove’ God in that (material) way.”
What’s the point of (material) originality anyways beside you and yourself?
Raymond, another thing…Genesis and the rest of the Torah were in all probabilty written during the Babylonian Captivity, around 597 BC, lasting about 4 generations. During that time the Israelites were intermarrying with their captors, giving the Levite priests great concern that the Hebrew bloodline would be assimilated (a common fear). The Creation story, Noah, Exodus and the Laws were set down at this time by the priests to tell the Jewish story and differentiate the Israelites from other nations. Dietary laws, circumcision and the Feast Days were drawn up during this time, along with hundreds of laws set down in Leviticus. The Creation myth was borrowed heavily from Babylonian myths, along with the Flood and other stories.
Moses did not write the Torah. Sorry, my Hebrew friends.
And you know all this how? Atheistic dogma is just as frustrating as anyone’s religious dogma. You all are so certain, aren’t ya?
The Torah has five separate authors, each easily identifiable by their use of language unique to their own eras. There is no “atheist dogma” – you’re just too entrenched to read proof without dismissing it. Incidentally, since you presumably think that Moses wrote the Torah: How, exactly, did he write about his own death?
*crickets*
How, exactly, did he write about his own death?
Maybe he was dictating.
“Atheist dogma” blah blah…. “It takes just as much faith to not believe in a god as in a god” blah blah… That old saw *again! Ignorant christians saying the same unoriginal things with endless repetition — which is really good evidence that they never read the rebuttals — are really tiresome.
Note: so tiresome I didn’t feel like typing out the rebuttal — again.
I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. I don’t think I can ever accept the inerrancy of the bible in light of what I know about the cannon of scriptures. However, there exist in nearly every ancient culture a telling of world flood. It doesn’t mean that it happened literally over the span of the globe but could have been a regional flood. Ararat is not the highest point on earth and yet the bible says there was not land found when it came to rest on the mountain. Also, Nebuchaddnezzar is said to have ruled the whole earth. We know that he didn’t rule the entire earth but a region. I would propose that is would be similar here. The epic of gilgamesh tells of flood (same general story with some different details – 7 days of rain as opposed to 40). Is this story the same – most likely, yes. I would look at the big picture and keep an open mind that this could be a vessel used to save an ancient people from a flood. I wouldn’t let the small details get in the way of the big picture that this could be the fabled vessel.
You are right.
It could have been a boat that peopel used when their village flooded.
I don’t think that really warrants the label “Noah’s Ark”, though.
Look at a Map.
Life clusters around supplies of fresh water.
It Rains.
Rivers and other bodies of water Flood.
Communities all around the world experience floods.
Every community will have a story about the “big flood”
DUH!
Critical thinking is blasphemous.
“Critical thinking is blasphemous.”
I actually heard this exact answer when I ask why “God” would get angry.
Ha! Had a similar conversation such as this thread with a fundie student. After a while she replied in desperate resignation that some poeple are “just too smart for thier own good”.
I thought about that for a second and could noly reply “So what you’re saying is that it takes a critical threshold of ignorance to accept your position?”
I’m reminded of the homeschooling discussion that took place here at UF. A fundie homeschooler was quoted as saying, “Facts have a liberal bias.”
Truthfully, Sunny Day wasn’t even engaging in critical thinking, per se. Common sense thinking is more like it. SD was just thinking, period.
Well it’s about damn time! I would have thought some idiot (or group of idiots) would have claimed to have found it years ago. So all there is now to find is what, Sampson’s hair? The skeleton of Jonah’s whale? I can’t wait.
They need to learn a thing or two about “Noah’s Snowball” — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcFNRBg8mUw
Did they find Jimmy Hoffa while they were at it?
He was in the aft canteen having tea with Lord Lucan.
I’ve read some comments in the site -and yes, I know it is the Sun but still- and I have lost every faith I had in humanity
“A team of Texas archaeologists believe they may have located the remains of Noah’s Ark in Iran’s Elburz mountain range.
“I can’t imagine what it could be if it is not the Ark,” said Arch Bonnema of the Bible Archaeology Search and Exploration (B.A.S.E) Institute, a Christian archeology organization dedicated to looking for biblical artifacts.”
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2133311&page=1
That was news four years ago. What happened to that Noah’s Ark? And the Noah’s Ark found in the 60′s?
“What happened to that Noah’s Ark? And the Noah’s Ark found in the 60’s?”
Simple, all ploys by satan to trick us into not knowing the “truth”. ;-)
Honestly, I would be thrilled if they found the “Noah’s Ark”. I wish they could find it whole, in it’s entirety. Then they might realize the ABSURDITY of some clown fitting ALL the animals in a frickin primitive, wooden water vessel.
I heard that they found coins that had been dated 4500 BC!!!
The source is The Sun Newspaper. Can we trust that?
PZ has an account from another YEC that says the thing’s a fake:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/latest_ark_finding_is_a_fake.php
A fake? Wow, that’s a surprise.
What I respect most about the Christian group from China and Turkey that claim they have found Noah’s Ark: they want to get other professionals involved at every level in their findings and want to preserve the area for further investigation. Doesn’t that sound healthy? It also varifies their desire to openly share what they have found with the world. They are claiming only 99.9 % certainty. Hey!! WONDERFUL and very scientific. Can we American’s handle that kind of genuine, honest openness and embrace their right or wrong efforts with excitement and expectation? I’m a new to this site…hello all. dorothy mae
Hallo Dorothy :-)
helo ken
Usually some of us finish our comments with a “\sarcasm off” or something like that so the readers can notice that we are kidding, when we are using sarcasm. You know, on the internetz is not always obvious for everybody.
BTW welcome!
From Price’s account: “As I said, I have the photos of the inside of the so-called Ark (that show cobwebs in the corners of rafters – something just not possible in these conditions)…”
It strikes me as funny that someone can recognize an impossibility such as that, yet maintain a belief that the Earth is 6000-10000 years old. “Cobwebs?!? Oh, please. That’s not possible. Now, the Earth being 6000 years old, on the other hand, is not only possible but an absolute certainty.”
I’m sure everyone is irrational about something at some point in their lives and that doesn’t mean they aren’t rational about a lot of other things, but YECs like Price are more than just irrational.
That was supposed to be a reply to Marge. My bad.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/latest_ark_finding_is_a_fake.php
Oooops, got beat to the punch by Marge.
Why do they keep on searching for evidences of God in the most negative way (Ark;flooding the world; killing) ? And you people, why do you keep on asking if the great flood is possible? Isn’t that too NEGATIVE? Why can’t it be skeptic to ask Why thus my heart keep on pumping without a battery? Can you find Adam and Eve if the only evidence you’ll know them is that they don’t have a belly button? If you’re all open minded.. ask a positive thing aside from this negative things… Example: How did this wood survived for 4,800 years while my Great great grandpa’s coffin is nowhere to be trace? You keep on looking for evidences of God in something that is not in existent rather that what is existing…
Exactly Bob – but that is the problem with us Atheists – ie we ask too many pestering questions. A couple I always ask is – why would God get angry? If God’s creation is perfect and he created man from mud, why do men have nipples? You see – it is the pestering questions that defy common sense, human reason and overall refute the existence of “God”.
Also -wood doesn’t survive although it can be petrified and is more a less a rock. Nothing special about that. Your heart keeps pumping because you eat food which is transformed into energy. Try to stop eating food and see how long your heart keeps pumping. No battery required.
i agree with you i mean i is all so silly
I really don’t understand your actitudes, this is the only Ark I have ever heard of as ‘found’. More than 5000 rivets have been counted, samples have been taken by two American Universities amongst others and they found that the 5000yr old rivets were made of an alloy not used again until a 100yrs ago. Animal remains of species now extint and the Ark’s dimensions ‘en-situ’ are just as the Bible states. If that’s not enough there are stone anchors strewn 20 miles down hill and Nacional Geographic has apparantly confirmed that this area did suffer serious flooding in it’s history. Many of the anchors have markings etched by ‘pilgrims’ dating 100′s & 1000′s of yrs. This is the only archeological site that has been officially declared as Noah’s Ark. You all have something to say but research to give a valid opinion is just too much work. Keeping an open mind and asking questions does’nt take a lot of effort. Ciao and God bless.
Indeed. That’s why we’d like for you to provide the sources for all your assertions. I have a feeling you can provide at most second-hand hearsay that doesn’t point back to anything tangible. I won’t hold my breath.
http://www.livius.org/fa-fn/flood/flood3.html
Try that. it might answer questions for you on why we don’t believe the story.
OK, I’ve read it. Just a shame he who wrote the article should restudy his conclusions from scratch. It’s common knowledge that Moses lived somewhere around 1400yrs BC (he wrote the first 5 books in the Bible) and Noah, well, WAAAY before that. Secondly to find a calender that coincided from one Arab culture to another was practically impossible. That article proves nothing at all. Of course I still want more proof but I trust in professional scientists, I’m sure they’ll find out if it is or not. Keep an open mind, nothing more. By the way did you see those Dead Sea Scrolls, now that’s science… 2200yrs old copy of the Old Testament. As you see science just strengthens my faith. I don’t think anyone can prove if God exists or not physically but science is doing a great job of proving just about all the rest. Keep an open mind. God bless.
It’s common knowledge that Moses lived somewhere around 1400yrs BC (he wrote the first 5 books in the Bible) and Noah, well, WAAAY before that.
What evidence do you have that a guy named Moses wrote the Pentateuch?