by VorJack
So the shepherd rolled a natural 20, big deal.
(via Sunday Morning Breakfast Cereal)
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And THAT is why you should roll out all the ones before every session.
Ignorance must play a HUGE role in this site. Lets see according to you.. David picked up a rock Threw it & Goliath fell dead. Nothing miraculous in that.
Well only if you never red the story. Goliath was the elite of the elite warrior. He was big probably larger than the average soldier (Think Basketball player or pro wrestler) in height & build. Today he would be a US Navy Seal only taller & very muscular. He was also well armored.
Along comes some 15 year old kid with NO military training. NONE what so ever. His only weapon a Slingshot. Pulls out a stone aims at this tall guy & fires. The stone aimed only at this tall very armored guy happens to randomly find that ONE place in his armor & inflicts the proper mount of force to kill this guy on the spot.
However less assume that Goliath was simply a loudmouthed bully. He strips his armor &
& only takes a spear. even then David still would have to get into a position & determine the exact & various calculations to determine what rock & etc, to make the kill. Remember we have a kid who has NEVER been trained to do this nor has any Military experience.
He then makes a one in a billion shot & kills the better more experienced combat veteran no one else could kill. Could it be done… Yes on the very first shot? the odds are NOT in David’s favor.
So the question remains could God have interfered in such a way that would have changed these odds? Well since we lack any understanding as to Who & What God is & everything about him beyond theology we will never FULLY be able to understand that but we can theorize.
This is a joke, right? Everything you just pointed out makes it highly unlikely that it ever happened in the first place. Besides, what’s miraculous about murder? The perfect deity couldn’t have settled it without someone getting buried?
Exactly, in my original post I was going to say that if God is so powerful, why didn’t he just take a pre-emptive strike against them but then instead chose to take a complicated ridiculous path to secure territory. I mean, if I was an all-powerful God I’d turn the enemy into cheerios and command my men to have a hearty breakfast. The possibilities are endless. But then again, that’s just me.
Ah-ha … typical answer. It’s not up for us to judge how god wishes to act we are merely here to serve him and not in the would you like fries with that kind of way.
This is a joke right … it’s in the Bible so of course it’s true and as it was really unlikely to happen – can you name one thing that has happened but was very unlikely to happen that wasn’t down to god. I bet you can’t? – so the only rational conclusion is that goddidit thereby proving the the Bible is correct and not just a collection of myths and fables as some uneducated people like to state.
“can you name one thing that has happened but was very unlikely to happen that wasn’t down to god. I bet you can’t”
The success of the Twilight movies and that Creationist Museum. There. Now you know.
God’s a big fan of the Twilight movies, I think you’ll find!
To be fair I actually didn’t mind them that much. Cliche, but it passed the time.
Never seen them myself … but from the description god himself would have to drag me into the cinema!
Seriously. Why didn’t Yahweh just wipe out the Whateveralikites on his own? And why does Yahweh always take such a weird shine to young people? (David, Mary…)
To be fair you can kill a larger person with a rock depending how hard you throw or aim it. In fact, it’s not even unusual for people to die that way. Even with armour on (slingshots have been used in warfare over the ages and can be very effective against armoured opponents). And as for making the ‘exact’ calculations to throw a rock? Who the hell does that? Some people are just naturally gifted with accuracy. My little brother is an excellent rock thrower, he can hit tiny objects from far away with a pebble and knock them down, so I doubt he’d have to stop and calculate the distance meticulously, factor in the wind resistance, etc just to hit some guy’s head. Hell, it doesn’t even seem that extraordinary if we assume this version of David existed. Being a bronze age Shepard I’d assume he knew how to fight somewhat.
And that’s IF the story was true. And it’s laughable how a supposed God loved to intervene in the matters of semi-literate bronze age warriors, but foregoes performing not one damn recognisable miracle in an age where we can record events perfectly.
“And that’s IF the story was true. And it’s laughable how a supposed God loved to intervene in the matters of semi-literate bronze age warriors, but foregoes performing not one damn recognisable miracle in an age where we can record events perfectly.”
Another one who dares judge god … you do realise that you’ll burn in hell for that, right?
Oh and I haven’t got my Bible with me at the moment so could yo look up a suitable passage from the Bible that shows the error of you ways and will make you become a server of Christ … ta.
“… and will make you become a server of Christ” Would you like fries with that?
Quoting bible passages is as useful as quoting something that Yoda said. Both are fictional.
It amazes me that people still believe that you will burn in hell in these times. If you say such a thing here in my country, they lock you up in psychiatry because you hear voices.
I’d rather quote Yoda. Well, Yoda from “The Empire Strikes Back,” anyway. He’s pretty useless in the prequels (as are all the Jedi).
When you wise are, finding their own way you will allow younglings to do.
Since when do you need military training to throw a stone at someone? I’ve never had military training but can throw a ball and hit an object a distance from me. If you believe that David’s chance of striking Goliath, where he did, was one in a billion, I suggest you buy a book on probability.
David was a shepherd, right? And you know what a shepherd’s most basic job is at this time period? Whenever a predator comes along, they drive it off with sling stones. So they get a lot of practise. Predators don’t come along all that often, though, so most of their practise would be hunting small animals for the pot. If you can hit a rabbit, you can kill anyone, no matter what armour they’re wearing, because armour at this period has an open faceplate or at least an eyehole as large as a rabbit’s head.
So where’s the miracle here?
@ wazza: I was just typing a similar response when I noticed your comment. Totally agree.
Furthermore, I’d imagine that – to be a good shepherd – David would have honed his skills with a sling shot during the quiet times (ie, whenever he wasn’t actually defending his flock or aiming for lunch).
Considering the situation, it would have been a miracle if David had missed Goliath.
Even if we consider this a true story, there is nothing miraculous about one person killing another with a rock. The story has David guarding his sheep (with the same sling) before going into battle. So the assumption that David had never launched one rock at anything and would need divine trajectory assistance seems to ignore an important part of the story. Also in the story, Goliath was just standing there. A stationary target is the easiest thing to hit, and it makes absolutely no difference how big the person is. Take the most badass navy seal you can find, get them to stand in one spot with no head protection while I fire 1 bullet at them and I can guarantee a kill. And this is coming from someone who has “no military training of any kind”.
On an unrelated note, I think the last panel of this comic would be just as good a punchline for a comic about the miracles of Jesus or Moses (yea it wouldn’t be a rabbi and Jesus but aside from that bit). I’ve always thought one of the biggest contributing factors to the miracles in the bible was the credulity of the witnesses. The 2nd to last panel is a perfect illustration of something I like to call “the miraculous worldview”, which I would consider almost a prerequisite for witnessing miracles. What I mean is that the person who sees the hand of god in mundane events probably already believed that god interferes with mundane events. For my parents, miracles are an everyday occurence. They are always mundane miracles which either have a natural explanation (god got me a good deal on a car) or are strictly matters of their own internal psychology (I was upset about this thing and I prayed and god made me feel better), but to them (and millions of others) this shit is absolutely real. The hand of god favors all their stupid little endeavors and whenever something they cannot explain happens it is because god altered something intentionally. So what does this have to do with David, Moses, or Jesus? Well, what would have happened if Harry Houdini had rolled into Galilee 2,000 years ago with his bag of tricks?
Obvious Poe is obvious. “Red” for “read” is a fairly common rendering of hick-speak, but “less assume” is genius.
Yeah right, impossible?
This kid has been grown up to kill squirl for food with his slingshot. So his accuracy is very precise. And in war times he probably heard many stories from soldiers how to kill a man easily.
And if you ignore all other 100 stories of kids that got killed by some big guy and only keep the one that was lucky then this would be proof of a god?
Goliath was the elite of the elite warrior.
That’s questionable. First off, a close reading of the text suggests he was a charioteer (there’s argument about that, but Prof. Jeffrey Zorn of Cornell makes a good case. It hinges on the translation of the word “champion”). That would have made him an elite in terms of status, but not necessarily in term of skill while in unmounted combat.
Today he would be a US Navy Seal only taller & very muscular. He was also well armored.
Non-sequitur. The point of the comic is that Goliath was struck by a lucky shot to the head. Body armor, musculature and martial skill would not have been factors. A helm might, but we’re not sure what degree of coverage the Philistine helms would have provided.
Along comes some 15 year old kid with NO military training.
Again, non-sequitur. David was using a sling, which is a peasant weapon. No military training would have been available for it. While several ancient militaries did well for themselves by incorporating slingers, they were usually cases like the Balearic Islands where the culture encouraged young men to become proficient in the use of the sling well before joining the military.
Remember we have a kid who has NEVER been trained to do this
Do we know this? As has been pointed out, the sling was a peasant weapon. According to legends, the young shepherd boys would while away the dull hours practicing their sling-craft. It served a vital function – helping him catch game, chasing off large predators, etc. – while keeping him from getting bored. It’s is quite plausible that David would be proficient in its use.
the odds are NOT in David’s favor.
Which was sort of the point of the joke. David rolled a critical hit and struck a shot to the forehead that disabled Goliath long enough for David to lop off his head.
Big deal. My halfling thief once backstabbed a hill giant. He couldn’t even reach the giant’s back! Now that, my friend, was a miracle. David’s accomplishment was unlikely, but still well within the realm of plausibility.
Anyway, this also ignores the scholarly argument around 1st Chron. 20:6-7:
“And there was again war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand, and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was descended from the giants. And when he taunted Israel, Jonathan the son of Shim’e-a, David’s brother, slew him.”
Many scholars think that this was the original story, and the new bandit-king David was inserted in place of Israel is order to give the usurped a more glorious past and some legitimacy on the throne. The story of young David with the sling may be wholly fictitious.
Nice deconstruction. Who drew that great comic? It’s wonderful!
Blast it, the image was supposed to link to the site. I’ll add a link.
All right! The post after mine had a reference to SMBC. It took a moment of searching, but now I’ve also found this delightful site.
But you also don’t mention the URL…
OK, I looked at the comic again and saw the link :-)
I thought he had the skills with the sling and stone because of having to drive away hostile animals and the like while shepherding?
SMBC is an AWESOME site! :) You all need to go there and click the red dot that is usually under the strip for bonus material. :)
Sheffield Muscle & Bodybuilding Clubs?? Am I missing something?
I see that people like to mythologize the Bible. This is really a no brainer here. The Philistines were pretty sure of themselves and their champion. Goliath was indeed a formidable sight. No seasoned Israeli warrior was sure he could win. David was a particularly skilled shepherd who thought “outside the box”. I would assume that the miracle was in just how well David’s skill came together just then. Slings may have been common, but David’s skill wasn’t. He was later a most envied warrior indeed. David was God’s miracle.
I see that people like to mythologize the Bible. [...] David was God’s miracle.
Then let’s strip aside the mythology and look at what sort of king David was:
David:
Came to power as a rogue bandit chieftain
Briefly allied himself with the Philistines
Perhaps participated in the battle in which Saul died
Usurped Saul’s position
Had Saul’s descendants killed
Had to brutally repress revolts in his new kingdom, including one led by his son
Do I even need to mention Uriah?
Failed to secure the succession for his heir, allowing Solomon to take control in the usual dynastic bloodbath, which …
ultimately led to the split that split the country and left David’s former power base in the south a depleted rump state
I think I’ll pass on any future miracle, thanks all the same.
Hmmm. The “ordered list” tag does some funky things here.
It’s because it’s being used in the reply lists; the CSS styled your list as well.
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Yeap! Sounds like David is a literary character, not unlike Hamlet or Macbeth. It’s just that Shakespeare was better than the Bible writers at keeping his characters’ personality consistent. But then, some scholars say that the OT is team effort, that it was written by several people over a long period, so that may account for the inconsistencies. But it is most likely either completely fiction or full of exaggerations.
A lot of these comments make some pretty valid points. I’m no fan of the Bible, or most of Christianity(or its wretched history) for that matter, but I’m not sure any of this matters.
On one side of the coin we see people who believe(based on science) that some billions of years ago, the JUST RIGHT mixture of intense heat and various atomic stuructures came together at JUST the right combo, at JUST the right time to cause an explosion bigger than anyone can imagine…which was left to its own unintelligable devices, and naturally lead to the existence we see around us today(every evolutionary step of which along the way happened JUST RIGHT, so that the universe itself has held together and the gazillion life forms we know today are here). It’s been said that a million chimps, with a million typewriters, over a billion years’ time, would still not be likely at all to produce a single line of Shakespeare(it could happen, but is extremely unlikely)…and yet it’s somehow plausable that we can trace ALL the causes and progressions that lead to today backwards to the Big Bang-and then accept that it “just happened.” Yet, are vain enough to look down noses at those of “faith”…as if science currently answers ALL questions.
On the other side of the coin are those who take the Bible, practically word for word in some cases, to be literally true-despite lack of practically all manner of scientific evidence-and even in the face of things we now KNOW defy physics and other sciences. Truly unbelievable and unlikely happenings, under so-called miraculous settings are believed to be the full truth, with little room for different interpretation or review. Such a mindset/life pattern as repeatedly done nearly unfathomable damage throughout recent human history and to our collective progression as a species. Apparently, old(very debilitating) habits do actually die hard.
Some people look at a quarter and only pay attention to the side with Washington’s face, agreeing that the bird side is often ridiculous and negligible, having no real use since their side of the coin has all the reasonable answers/worth. Others choose to ignore that side and instead only see the side of the eagle…and the very same thing happens simultaneously.
The real idiocy here lies in that both groups lack true moderation of mind and fail to realize that not only are both sides of the coin actually very similar(being made of like material) but that you cannot have any coin with just one side.
I see. So we are idiots and you’re smart. The ONLY person here who exhibits MODERATION OF MIND is you.
Atheist, Christian, Jewish, or whatever, you are the kind of person I usually cross the street to avoid.
On one side of the coin we see people who believe(based on science) that some billions of years ago, the JUST RIGHT mixture of intense heat and various atomic stuructures came together at JUST the right combo, at JUST the right time to cause an explosion bigger than anyone can imagine…
Um, what exactly are you talking about? You do realize that what you’re describing bears absolutely no resemblance to the Big Bang or the inflationary theroy … or anything else, for that matter.
For someone who complains about other people’s literalness, you certainly don’t approach the concept of the origins of the universe with any sophistication.
I was thinking the same thing. I’m no physicist, (although I love reading scientific articles) but I’m pretty sure that no where in any scientific study has it posited anything stating that the Universe needed “just the right necessary conditions” for anything to occur.
Well, that and the fact that there were no “atomic structures” to come together “just right” before the Big Bang. Also, no atoms.
Exactly. And we have no clue how many times attempts to create a physical environment occured before things were ‘just right.’ Who knows what’d be going on before our solar system? Other failed planets overun by nutjobs?
Not only this but his explanation is scientifically completely wrong.
* Matter and Atoms formed AFTER the big bang.
* The big bang is NO BANG at al! It is not an explosion!
* The Universe had 9.5 BILLION years to cool down before the solar system started to build.
“On one side of the coin we see people who believe(based on science) that some billions of years ago, the JUST RIGHT mixture of intense heat and various atomic stuructures came together at JUST the right combo, at JUST the right time to cause an explosion bigger than anyone can imagine…”
Maybe you should stay away from creationists sites. This is creationists BS and has no relationship whatsoever with science. Reading a real science book could help.
Ah yas, I see you leading up to supporting xianity after trying to warm us up.
Lorena’s got it right: both sides are such idiots, and you are the moderate thinker who rounds out the whole and brings us all back to sanity.
Coming up next: “It takes as much faith to be an atheist as it does to believe in christianity.” Spare the world that tired, repetitious, worn-out, tedious, monumentally unoriginal old platitude again.
It is not even a coin with both sides! They are not even on equal level.
The bible stories are waaay waay waayy behind science.
Lord of The rings has more scientific truth and evidence that it exists than the bible.
“The real idiocy here lies in that both groups lack true moderation of mind and fail to realize that not only are both sides of the coin actually very similar(being made of like material) but that you cannot have any coin with just one side.”
The real idiocy is to believe there are people who believed that real coin is half baked, like Vishwarup.
Just like the phrase in the Matrix:
“There is no coin”
Like David, I would probably be able to kill people too if I believed in God.
If you kill in the name of God, you become a hero.
So does Appy State beating Michigan count as a modern day miracle by god? If so then it is quite clear god hates Michigan… :P I can support this theory by the Detroit Lions 0-16 season.