by VorJack
I’m reading Diarmid MacCulloch’s Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years right now. Let me just say that I will NOT be reviewing this thousand page monstrosity. It’s fairly good so far, but I can’t see myself finishing it any time soon.
Sharp-eyed readers will notice that Christianity has gained another one thousand years of history in the subtitle. MacCulloch threw that in to represent the fact that Christianity grew out of a thousand years of Jewish theology and Greek philosophy. And also the fact that Christianity isn’t done yet.
That last bit is an exercise for the reader. Given that no one in America a century ago could have predicted the rise of Mormonism or the rapid spread of Charismatic worship, I’m leery about trying to make predictions about where the religion is going.
Still, it’s worth thinking about. In your country or region, where do you see Christianity headed?
First?
In Spain, christianism is living a process of radicalization by some people, who are strugging against the reality: it is -slowly, too slowly- disappearing.
My gran’s generation was catholic and practicant, my parent’s generation wasn’t practicant but they did believe and they did respect the opinion -and something like a moral leadership- of the pope and the roman church, and they baptized their sons.
In my generation there are lots of atheists and agnostics, but most of the people are catholic only by the name (about 75% of the pop. is officially catholic, I am officially catholic). They don’t go to church appart from marriages or baptisms and they don’t care about what their leaders have to say, is more about a social rule than anything real.
Coincidentally my generation had a much better access to education.
But…
Evangelism is coming here, helped by hispanoamerican immigration. At the same time private schools, ruled by the church are growing again. And rightist sectors of the society are at war defending their disappearing morality. Church is getting involved in politics with them (not the first time, they supported the dictator). We are now discussing about abortion, some years ago about eugenesis and mother cells. They are losing the battle but only step by step.
Another sector of our society is changing religion for woo.
In Japan I don’t see any Christians. I think the total number is less than 1%? I do not believe the number will increase anytime soon and like Japan’s birth rate and population it will only continue to shrink.
I had a conversation with a friend about this quite some time ago and I guess some feel the christian “god” was unable to save his followers many times from tragedy and their god was unable to save his own son from dying on the cross. So why follow a weak god who won’t help me or offer divine intervention when needed and is very selective who he helps?
My other friend was more to the point. You mean the same Christian country who dropped 2 nukes on us? Yea no thanks…
Christians make up 2%, according to Wikipedia and the CIA Factbook.
Still, pretty minusucule.
Well I don’t trust Wikipedia. But 2% could be right. Just never see any here. Though I guess it could be more dominant in the countryside? Honestly I have seen more JW’s than Christians here. I even had 2 knock on my door a few weeks ago. As typical Japanese they apologized for bothering me and asked if i wanted this flyer but it was Ok if I said no. when I said I was tired and just want to sleep they bowed about 3 times and said sorry and left. Even the converters here are passive…
Maybe calling at the door of a random person to convert him is pretty agressive in Japan. Are there “normal” door-to-door sellers?
I know that when Christianity was first brought to Japan, or introduced, most people rejected it because they thought it was disrupt the harmonious society they’d built… Buddhism, Zen, all that. Anyway, the first xtians were situated on the outskirts of Honshu, or the small islands (ryukuu islands? can’t remember) as outcasts. Interesting.
In South Carolina it seems to be on the upsurge. Any politician wanting to win office in the state had better be a Christian, support the supposed Christian issues of the day, and pandering to the flock doesn’t hurt either. This isn’t the nice gospel of Jesus either. The most gun obsessed, pro-war, bigoted, and opposed to assistance to the poor are all proud “Christians”.
THIS.
One word: Megachurches.
In Ireland the Catholic Church is in a period of rapid decline. Strict adherence to Catholic dogma is almost gone, to be replaced by more liberal interpretations among the 70-50 year old age group. Below 40-45, the church appears to be increasingly absent from normal life apart from the big occasions of birth, death and holy communions. Despite many people below 40 saying that they are not religious, professed atheism is still relatively, however.
Still though, a lot of people would call themselves “spiritual, but not religious”,which leaves the door open to a hell of a lot of woo. Evangelism has been making inroads and there are now unafilliated born-again Christian churches in every town. I would see this trend growing in the next few years.
Religion suffers somewhat from the urban / rural divide, with the cities becoming increasingly non-religious, while Catholicism continues to hold sway in the country towns and villages.
Islam is still a tiny minority religion here. There has been a big increase in recent years due to immigration, but it’s a small percentage of people.
“Religion suffers somewhat from the urban / rural divide”
Exactly! That’s true in Texas as well, whatever our “reputation”.
So, is that anti-blasphemy law some sort of death throe?
Not really. It was introduced to accord with the Irish Constitution, which proscribes blasphemy. The correct thing to do would have been to change the constitution, a move which the minister has now hinted at.
Why are comments all in bold? Let me try something here…. Okay has that worked?
Fixed it. I hadn’t closed the bold tag in the post.
No, never mind.
On topic: In the UK I see it in decline fast. CofE is already the kinder, gentler Christianity – and Rowan Williams (Archbishop of Canterbury) is facing severe opposition on his stance of not allowing gay priests to be ordained. It could be the schism that ends CofE. Hopefully Catholicism will folow suit shortly after, along with Southern Baptists (we actually have a few of those in the UK) and all the happy-clappy crap too.
I think Christianity in the UK could possibly have a slight resurgence as a type of nationalist, back-to-traditions type of thing. Perhaps more of a cultural heritage type of Christianity.
Islam is the main issue about religion in the UK. I think Islam is actually going to decline in the UK. I know it seems like a weird statement with all those Muslim migrants coming in, but most of their children brought up here become pretty anglicised. Sure you have a few of them (the ones who go to faith schools, mainly) but a lot of them adopt the secular values of the UK. By the third generation I think most of them will be agnostic.
I grew up around Muslims and my Dad was a light one. Many of my Muslim friends my age believe in Allah, but don’t follow the Quran fully. Like they drink, have sex and don’t really think about jihad. Although with that said, some of them do try to cling onto a cultural Islam and start wearing Muslim clothes and becoming quite religious. But I think that’s mostly just a reaction to a perceived threat. They grow out of it (hopefully).
So bottomline, I think it will have a slight growth now, but thirty-forty years from now it’ll be fairly secular.
As a person who has experienced it, you should say it more. Xenophobes all over Europe are trying to point at the perils of Europe’s islamization, forgetting that usually -at least, when they have access to wellfare benefits and treated fairly- immigrant’s childs are easily adapted to the new culture.
Thanks!
I’m openly guilty of Islamophobia, and even I agree with this. By the third or fourth generation they’re mostly so Anglicised that it’s all good – that doesn’t mean that the recent migrants who indulge in honour killings and preach death to my white infidel arse scare me any less, though.
Even so, you have to factor in the exact amount of first generation Muslims who are in fact fundamentalist radicals. I’d suggest it’s probably very small compared to the rest of the amount. They’re just quite good at organising. It’s almost a cliché to say it, but the vast majority of Muslims are not honour killing, terrorists. Although with that said, I sometimes suspect whether a decent amount of them, while not actively participating in it, are slightly apathetic or possibly empathetic towards fundamentalist interpretations and terrorism. But you can’t prosecute for a thought-crime, so it’s really of no relevance unless they act on it.
I think its thous who chose to convert to Islam, that are the more dangerous. Frequently these are individuals who already feel disenfranchised. And the fact that they feel western society has cheated them is a significant factor in their choice of religion.
Depends whom their converted by and how that process goes. I know quite a few converts (or reverts as they call them in their faith) and their either very liberal or quite fundamental. Even so, I don’t think they’re a threat in the sense of terrorism most of the time. But they are loud, uncompromising, intolerant and arrogant. That’s for sure. I’ve had experience with a few. The liberals are awesome though. They’re a bit preachy and have a high-horse, but you wouldn’t know they were Muslim unless they wore a headscarf or blatantly told you.
As for a somewhat personal experience involving Islam in my community, most of the time it’s pretty benign and innocuous. But, I know in my area of Lambeth, we have this gang (it’s dwindling now fortunately, might even be gone now- I don’t keep up with this sort of thing any more) called SMS (South Muslim Soldiers) and most of the time they just engage in petty stuff, but a few years back they used to go about asking people to convert to Islam. If they said no, they got beaten up. If yes, then they let them be. Thing is, it was just a ruse to rob people. If they would see the person who agreed to conversion again, they’d accuse him of not being a true Muslim and probably rob them anyway, accusing them of ‘taking the piss’. Although there were a few genuine conversions.
Most of them were brought up in the faith, but a sizeable amount were converts. They were fundies though, although they did engage in a lot of ‘sinful’ activities. There weren’t too many active members of them most were just idiot posers who might come every now and again to jeer on a fight. Now, they don’t do that, but they try and rob only non-Muslims. Once they were going to rob my friend until they saw he was Asian and a Muslim. Mercifully I’ve been hassled by them, but I have a lot of friends who’ve been in feuds with them.
Once the Guardian and the Daily Mail ran an article on them and made them out to be some sort of Mafia style terrorist group. Was hilarious. But it inflated their egos so much that they actually started becoming more criminal. Before aside from the few harassments and ‘conversions’ they were fairly normal for a UK gang.
Sorry about the rant!
Belgium, Catholics is nearly dead. On 16% trust the pope according to polls.
But Islam is on the rise.
Correction, only 16% trust the pope.
It seems to be growing in China, and that’s the official numbers. Who knows about the underground Christians there. A billion more Christians on the planet. Most of whom will probably be evangelical, fundie types.
I write on the subject a lot – especially extremist fundamentalism.
Here in the U.S., the Fundies have stolen center-stage from any other branch of the religion. For every preacher or layperson working in a homeless shelter, there appear to be at least one or two Fundies, screaming “America is a Christian nation!”, and working hell-bent to ‘take the country back’ – ostensibly to the 18th century, where agreements like the Massachusetts Bay Compact governed that corner of America, and where the notion of ‘religious freedom’ meant that if you didn’t worship their way, you were ‘free to leave’.
Extremists have now infested every aspect of American life – and their unwritten but apparent strategy is to gain majorities in the military, the courts, one of our major political parties (the Republicans) and the education system. With these three, they’ll have de-facto control of the country.
They also appear to be spreading overseas like a virus. Scott Lively and others held their ‘evangelical conference’ in Uganda in early 2009 – and the result was the proposed legislation against gays, including the death-penalty for ‘aggravated cases’.
Many of us (Chris Hedges, Max Blumenthal, Jeff Sharlet, Michele Goldberg, Michael Weinstein) have connected the dots on these people, some dating back to 2003 or even earlier; the majority of Americans, however, don’t seem to understand the danger or be paying much attention.
Taken together, these actions paint a pretty dark picture of America’s future.
Yes but your country seemed to reject the fundies last election. Also from what I have read the Supreme Court has had two people chosen by Obama. Is this a sign of progress or is it 1 step forward 2 steps back?
Too early to tell, but I’ll be a lot more optimistic if Obama wins again at the mid-term in 2012.
He ain’t gonna win. This oil spill will bury him.
Yep. The obvious way to avoid any corporation being uncareful and causing an ecological disaster is deregulation of the market. A requiem for logic, please.
I mean unless Obama starts lining up BP execs, regulators, halliburton people, & corrupt govt inspectors against the wall & opens fire, this will stink up any good feelings about him. I know the whole oil industry & govt is totally incestuous & way more involved than we like to think, but so what. People are tired of that. I want me some black & white justice on this. None of that “an investigation has started” hogwash.
Now that’s optimism! Doesn’t an Obama win meant the Bush agenda continues till 2016?
The last election was a combination of poor voter participation from the Right, an abysmal choice of frontman/running mate from the Reps, and good organizational skills from the Dems. Obama’s election surprised everyone, including his supporters.
People voted not so much for Obama as they did against McCain – while Palin has done what no one expected – she’s consolidated a voting base using the Tea Party movement as a vehicle – she was an unknown then, and made enough statements to brand her as a ‘whacko’ to most voters.
The Dems did a good job of pointing out that McCain was getting on in years, and that Palin was one heartbeat from the White House if McCain were elected.
If the election were held today, I’d wager that Obama would lose. The Dems are set-up now for a thrashing in the midterms this November; as the commenter below mentions, this oil spill is bad news, and Obama’s relative inaction since taking office on everything from DADT (it could have been repealed with the stroke of a pen); rolling back the Bush-era attacks on the Constitution; dealing with Guantanamo – has led most people here in America to believe that whatever his intelligence, his lack of action more than negates it.
The Fundies have executed a strategy which dates back thirty years or more, starting with home-schooling an insular generation of children who now look to their pastors for leadership in everything from politics to entertainment; they have no use for the America which would join the ranks of social democracies in the world, and have cheerfully taken on the legal establishment (through Liberty University and other related graduates who now fill the ranks of the ACLJ and other organizations) and the military (through their infiltration of the officer-corps).
America is in serious danger. As the founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, Michael Weinstein, has said, “We’re no more than a Tiger Woods two-inch putt from a military coup.” He’s not exaggerating.
I think Bill Hicks said it best, so I’ll paraphrase him:
“Here’s politics in America, you ready? ‘I think the puppet on the left represents my views’, ‘I agree with the puppet on the right more’, ‘hey wait a minute, there’s one guy with his hands up both puppets’ – you see how this works”.
Not just in America, though the USA is more open about it. Lobbying for profit should be made illegal imho. It does more harm than it will ever do good.
*mind blown* I really thought the USA was getting more liberal and tolerant but I guess not. I thought/read that the younger generations were breaking away from the fundies? Which explained the youth vote for Obama?
So is this home schooling causing a younger generation of fundies?
Just from an outsiders perspective it seems Obama never got a fair chance from day one.
I mean yea you have crazies I mean quitters like Palin trying to get support (though I feel this is to promote her book and keep her name out there) but I would like to think the USA citizens are smart enough not to vote for her. Though she would be running as a 3rd party?
Though I hear the right wing radio talk say oh no don’t be fooled into the 3rd party voting cause it would hurt the GOP chances and split the vote. So these shills for the GOP on the radio would rather see a crappy GOP person then a person who stands for what they are preaching on the radio O.o
Obama did get a size able amount of help from the younger generation, but it isn’t so much that we are more liberal and tolerant. He used the modern media of texting and the internet to reach out to voters, this had never been done before and the McCain campaign certainly wasn’t going this route.
And no, I don’t think most Americans are smart enough to not vote for Palin. A lot of people liked her because she was “hot.” Why vote for someone who is intelligent and average looking when you can get a looker (relative to politics), that would be too much logical thought for a society obsessed with fashion trends, American Idol, and celebrity gossip. Also, a big concern for the democrats was that Palin would pick up the voters who were supporting Hilary, first female president; Palin would still have this charismatic advantage next election.
I seem to recall hearing that JFK had a similar advantage among women because he was considered attractive. People have always voted for shallow reasons; there are plenty of videos of people being interviewed about why they voted for $Candidate, but they can’t even name a single position that the candidate has on any issue. It’s sad, really, but unsurprising.
I may be too optimistic, but it seems to me like every time the fundies protest some “social evil” or make some cockamamie end of days prediction they turn off a few more young people. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was more deconversion than conversion, but the agnostics and people who have simply lost interest in religion aren’t very vocal.
Here in Brazil is much like in Spain… but I’d think it’s worse.
Catholicism is declining rapidly, so much it forced the church in a sort of revival – there’s been a trend of ‘hip’ young priests that sing and dance and pretty much try to act like evangelical churches.
Evangelical churches, especially the annoying “born again” tripe, is leeching on the vacuum. I live in a country with a lot of poverty and uneducated people (heh, we’re the third world, after all) and they are easy targets. There’s an evangelical cult every corner. Most of these are just like the few(er) megachurches: money-gathering schemes.
We’ve even a major mainstream TV channel owned by a megachurch pastor – he’s that shameless. Ironically, it has some pretty decent shows in it, as well as news. It’s not too obnoxiously religious except in religious holidays such as Easter, Xmas, etc.
TL;DR – today the weather is catholicism drought, combined with an uprise of evangelical fundies.
You should explain us some time how is Lula dealing -or not- with poverty in your country. I’m curious about it.
As I’ve pointed out elsewhere – they breed faster than we do; they’re more organized – and they have guns….
He isn’t any more than the rest. The economy is improving very very slightly over time, as it had been before him and as it will continue after him. He has done some good stuff – I can’t deny that – things are improving, but I don’t see changes deep enough or significant enough, mostly palliatives to keep people happy. Corruption in his gov’t is as bad, if not worse, than in previous ones. It’s not so much that he didn’t try but that he can’t do much more. The holes and the flaws are foundational – no amount of democratic politicking will change that overnight. A dictatorship might, but at what cost?
In the US, the non-religious population is growing, yes, but I also see an unfortunate pattern among the Christian population. Kids raised by moderate/liberal/casual Christian families don’t always feel the need to stay religious. Kids raised by serious fundamentalists/conservative Christian families are pretty brainwashed by the time they get out (especially if they were home-schooled), and many of these families have more (sometimes many more) children than average.
So perhaps religion, overall, will keep decreasing ever-so-slightly in percentage, but the mega-church evangelicals and other fundamentalists will breed (and convert) their way into a higher and higher percentage.
I just pray that it goes away. Seriously, Christianity is about as useful as a fungal infection between the toes… and just as irritating.
But fun to scratch.
LOL If you can reach!
Unfortunately alot of people are trying homeopathic remedies for that fungal infection.
“Head On, apply directly to forehead!”
Am I the only one here that just HATED those ads? Irritating, repetitive, headache-inducing…. ugh.
LOL! They were the “monster truck rally/ used car salesmen” of headache relief!
Yah made me want to prescribe, “BOOT ON. Apply directly to Dangly Bits!”
ROFL! Those Head On adverts were hilarious! I was in the Caribbean at the time and when it’d come on, it would drive my older brother insane. xD
OTFG, it was hilarious. Just remembering them makes me want to crack up in my law library!
*snrk*
I love it!
Where I came from, the Philippines, Christianity is very much alive. The only difference is where majority of Christians used to be Catholics, gullible Filipinos are now drawn by different Protestant sects like Southern Baptists and Methodists, as well as Mormons and other non-Catholic denominations with slick-talking preachers. They have replaced one set of superstition with another. This is one country where pedophile priests are plenty but because the flock has been so brainwashed for centuries, these criminals in their vestments continue to victimize young girls and boys, with hardly anyone trying to get attention.
I think (hope) the highly politicized version of the modern American church will die out. You’ll be left with a radical conservative movement that has no common ground besides it’s nominal conservatism.
Megachurches aren’t going to fly anymore: the reason that megachurches are successful at all today is because they focus almost all of their energy on small group ministries and church plants. These churches of 20,000 members are basically collections of hundreds and hundreds of small-group Bible studies.
So I predict house churches.
Also: the church hasn’t even begun to come to terms with the powerful new form of social interaction that is the internet. That should have a massive impact on the shape of the church as most of the old growth dies off or is trimmed back.
That would be a remarkable transformation.
Can I declare my blog a ministry and get a tax break?
Since, I live in the Bible Belt, i see Christianity on every corner, people continue to believe in fairy tales and by the time i finish writing this, i’m sure they will have built another church not to far up the road…..i don’t see Christianity going anywhere anytime soon…
That’s a tough question for me because my vision is so restricted. I live in liberal urban Seattle, the unofficial promised land for aging hippies. I know from my brief & semi-hostile exchanges with Alabama cousins that rural areas are NOTHING like it is here. So I don’t have any good feel for the overall balance in the country. Yes, the evangies are getting a lot of press, but I think they are the minority. Our neighbors next door & across the street are very christiain – they volunteer, do all kinds of things. But they otherwise seem like the kind of normal, reasonalbe, thinking people you’d happily chat with. I’m worried about the evangies because they get so much press. Americans are very conditioned to believe that the more they see of a thing in the media, the more real it is. And if evangelical frothing becomes “normalized” then it’ll pick up more adherents, people who were kind of on the edge but thought they’d be laughed at.
I think we’re seeing the beginning of the end of Christianity in the U.S. All religions live and die, and are then replaced with something else. It’s what that ‘something else’ will be that I’m worried about…
Not really on topic to the question, but . . .
I finished reading this incredible book called, “The Case for God,” by Karen Armstrong. It’s a bit of a slog, and unfortunately the audio book is read by what sounds like an elderly British lady, so even that is incredibly dry — but it’s a fantastic book.
One of the points that it made was that religion was never intended to be a scientific experience — it’s meant to be a transcendent, spiritual experience that brings us face-to-face with our unknowing. Religion is not supposed to be easily divisible, broken down into parts and explained with throw-away little tidbits. Rather, it’s supposed to be an exercise in meditation and experience.
Armstrong makes the excellent case that throughout religious history (but most especially since the second reformation), religious institutions have fallen prey to scientific notion — that is, that their beliefs can be qualified, proven, and easily stated. Of course, when they are proven wrong through applied scientific models, there can be only two reactions: One, deny science; or two, deny religion.
She argues that religion (and she covers the history of philosophical belief, starting with paleolithic shamanism and working her way through the ages to end with Evangelicals and New Atheists) plays a role when it’s used as a spiritual tool. Something that, through meditation and ritual, allows us to touch that part of us that all humans share. She talks about Buddhism, the true purpose of the unknowable Trinity (think meditation), and how Physics professors and many other scientists have in many cases embraced that state of unknowable acceptance — the realization that we cannot fully itemize and realize everything in the universe, and that only makes it more wondrous and beautiful every time we discover a new answer that leads to more questions.
This is the role religion was supposed to play — a transcendence of self, an examination of our motives and desires. Instead, it’s been bastardized into little pudgy men in shorts hooting and hollering about god.
Armstrong covers this, too, interestingly. She talks about how two centuries ago, men and women of religious inquiry would have been appalled at the emotional, immediate way people interact with religion. Such a visceral emotional response takes away from true spirituality and transcendence — the meditative experience that allows you to look with clear, unblemished eyes at your fellow man and feel empathy and love for them, rather than judgment and disdain. She covers in great detail the purpose religious ritual once had, and how it became antiquated and disdained.
It’s an incredible book. She manages to walk the balance between atheism and religious belief quite well. Her analysis of religious history is eye-opening and breathtaking, and I found myself saying (several times), “Wow, if religions had just stuck with *that* idea, they might have had something!”
Sorry, but that’s crap. Religion was meant to answer questions that ancient humans couldn’t. It wasn’t designed as some transcendent hippy orgasm.
No, she’s right or at least closer to the truth than your position Custy, no offense man. While Armstrong has some understanding, she tries too hard to straddle the fence between two ideologies as she attempts to retain a degree of respectability in the secular/academic circles which, with respect to matters pertaining to the realm of spirit is always a self-defeating and compromising position. Nevertheless she hits on some key points contrasting the old and the new, etc.
All the best dear Sir!
Sometimes, despite myself, I *really* like you John.
>.>
<.<
Don't tell anybody…
It depends entirely on which religious tradition you’re talking about, and I also think it a mistake to argue that religion, writ large, has only one purpose. Either way, there is no reason religion can’t be used as a tool for introspection and enlightenment even if that wasn’t its original purpose.
Thanks for that summary. I would like to read that but after slogging through her History of God I don’t really have the patience for another one. Armstrong has a sweeping grasp of the history of religion and is very informative; but she is not neutral. She is very much an apologist. Her precept is that religion is a valuable and beneficial institution, itself (almost) worthy of worship.
Daniel! – the bottom of this page has an ad where i can sign up for a free daily bible reading. My eyes! My eyes!
I saved an image of a Muslim Dating Agency at the bottom of an Unreasonable Faith article ABOUT something negative in Islam. I lol’d when I saw that.
Well, I think “Christianity” — in a Protestant or evangelical sense — is fizzling out here in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, but Catholicism! Catholicism is alive and well, and doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere soon. Surrounded by 2nd and 3rd generation Italians who are MORE Italian than actual Italians from Italy; more Catholic than actual priests in the Vatican.
Here we have tax dollars going to both public and Catholic school boards. Everybody and their goat is having a first communion, getting confirmed, etc., which I think is a load of crap not just religiously, but politically, too. The only people benefitting from these rituals are the rental halls, the caterers, the bonbonniere makers…
Unlike some commenters from other parts, here, the Catholic church is still doing a great job indoctrinating their young, sorry to say.
Told ya!
I’m inclined to think that as long as there are people, there will be religion.
As far as Christianity in my region … I’m not exactly sure whether it’s growing or not. But, I’d guess that local statistics reflect the national picture — increase in megachurches, decrease in smaller churches, with the total number of self-identifying Christians holding steady or maybe gradually declining.
Imagine no religion. I wonder if something as enormous as the disappearance of an overwhelmingly huge institution like religion has ever happened before? One comparable disappearance might be the fading of the institution of slavery. It too was an institution that had been around since the dawn of civilization. But it didn’t really disappear did it? It morphed into something else, here in the West, into something less virulent. But it was detrhroned from the preeminent place it had come to occupy at the center of Western culture, especially in the Americas. Something similar seems to be happening with the institution of religion. Interestingly, as with the abolition of slavery, it’s happening in Europe first.
Good point. Only the transition from hunting to agriculture or the adoption of metal tools would compare in scope of impact on society.
What is unfortunate is that slavery hasn’t disappeared.
Human trafficking is still alive and thriving. I believe it’s the fastest growing criminal activity in the world. Eventually, people will be packaged and dealt more than drugs
Slaves used to be an expensive commodity. Now a life in Africa can be bought for $9…
:(
Not only that, in the US it morphed into the penal institution.
Apropos of that.
thx for the link
The problem with megachurches is that they all (so far) plateau at a certain number of members. Not to mention the considerable inertia that counterbalances their extensive resources. The continuation of megachurches could continue, but I just don’t see it I guess.
Christianity hasn’t even started to being preached. The cornerstone of the “christian” faith is SIN(jewish theology), redemption(jewish theology) and the 10 commandments(jewish….you get the idea). Sorry….I’m not jewish. The apostle Paul said that the Gentiles(that’s me) are not under the law, so therefore SIN means absolutely nothing to me. That means “jesus” “died” on the cross not for me! In the first book of John chapter three it states that if the seed of god is within you, you can NOT sin. So “jesus” “died” for absolutely NOTHING! Take sin, redemption and the law away from “christians” and you have NOTHING but a bunch of nose-picking-brain-dead-nazi assholes……which is in fact what we are stuck with until god ruptures(sic) them……and I wish he’d hurry up!!
I only found one nugget of truth in all your many words: ‘the seed of God is within you’. Bingo.
Thou art god. – Robert A. Heinlein
THANK-YOU, you are correct! I’m a Gnostic and that IS one of many of the beliefs: it is not enough to worship god, man must “ascend” and be unified with god. Therefore I am christ as christ is within me, I am the son of god and as I am unified with god…I am god……BUT only in spiritual terms! That is exactly what the first century christians believed and lived! For further investigations, try reading Elaine Pagel’s book “The Gnostic Gospels”. If what I write disturbs you maybe you should take up basket weaving!
” For further investigations, try reading Elaine Pagel’s book “The Gnostic Gospels”. If what I write disturbs you maybe you should take up basket weaving!”
Just because one may not afford to buy the book, you can mock the poor?
The library is free! Just don’t hope to find it in the Roanld Reagan Library. I never mock the poor as I am poor($) but rich in spirit!
Who can get it free from the library you did not mention?
What truth?! The “bible” is made up of so many various documents that the early catholic church approved of. Included are so many contradictory and obviously false documents which they inserted to keep man from attaining spiritual freedom. What was sad is the many Gnostic documents that were NOT inserted! We have been so badly led astray for the last 1900 years that I’m afraid it’s too late to change! The holy wars are soon upon us as the fundamentalists wipe out each other and the rest of humanity! christianity against islam against Israel against….well you get the message. The wars will continue even within the individual “faiths”: Sunni versus Shiite, baptists versus catholics, ultra orthodox versus reform….the list is endless. Religion is a bloody curse that will destroy us all…..so exactly WHO has the “truth”??!!
“so exactly WHO has the “truth”??!!”
What do you mean by your saying?
I was fortunate to hear my dad once tell me: “any person who says he has the truth is a very dangerous person”. Truth is relative to the individual and his relationship with the eternal(which ever way you wish to perceive it). There is no truth, at least not as it pertains to our physical being. Spiritually, yes. Now you enter a realm that is governed not by our minds which seems to be the source of all our problems…..we just can NOT agree on any issue. What that means for the spiritually inclined I can’t say(I can speak for myself). It is left up to the individual to privately discover the “divine” on their own. I know the truth for me but I will not prosletize it nor force others to follow me.
Then don’t. But your words are not what you claim to be, sorry.
I claim absolutely NOTHING…..have a nice day
Good day.
Truth is a Person, ie Christ saying ‘I am the Way, the Truth and the Life’. Truth (Himself) would abide within, in that temple which we are, if indeed we are.
“@michael…I am god……”
You are a contradiction to Michael’s (What truth?! ).
Interesting…..perhaps. I do try to be a sh*t disturber!
Christ in the person of each of us, if that is what we aim for. It is not a “law” that we must obey. Each to their own.
There is a great line about truth in Jesus Christ Superstar. I believe it is when Pilate is talking to Jesus:
What is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We all have truths, are mine the same as yours?
When you enter the realm of beliefs, truths are not like facts. Truths are what the sacred texts or the prophet or the preacher says they are.
You mean Truth is an invisible, imaginary person? Well, blow me down. I never would have guessed that.
“Truth” is a human invention used to beat up anyone who does not believe in it! There is no truth! Man may say he/she got the truth from god, but it is really a device to screw man up: Jews have the truth, Muslims have the truth, Sikhs have the truth, Christians(Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Church of England, Lutherans, Orthodox Church…..you get the idea) have the truth……well it would seem EVERYBODY has the “truth”! Within each of those, and MANY more, there is a belief that “they” will go to heaven and the rest will burn in hell for all eternity. Now we must assume that either God is pulling a fast one on us and having a great laugh OR man is just too f**ked up to see any light of reason and compassion. Jesus “said” that the greatest commandments were to love God and love(do no harm) one another. What part of that truth do any of the “religious” groups follow? I wish God would hand them all weapons so they could show their versions of “love”……ooops, too late….they’re already showing their love(hate) for their fellow man/woman already. Truth does not exist but in the twisted and hate filled minds of mankind! From a human perspective TRUTH = HATE, LOVE = DEATH!
Christian’s are waiting for Jesus to return. They think they’ll get a reward……I would NOT think it would be all that positive!
IF…..the seed or nature of god is within…… Only the invidual and the eternal can determine whether that is the case. Man can NOT perceive the spirit with his mind!
“Man can NOT perceive the spirit with his mind!”
Unless his mind has been renewed, now has the mind of Christ and that which is of the soulical in him (mind inclusive) is now under the reign of his united, one with Christ spirit. 1 Cor 6:17 right?
I should explain that I am a Pentocostal Gnostic as the Apostle Paul was. The gift of tongues was solely given so that spiritual knowledge may be passed to the individual without the mind getting in the way. Please understand….it is how I have perceived it for over thirty years. Christ in us the hope of glory, has a very tremendous meaning for me. Sadly the modern day religion called Christianity is not at all what Jesus preached and it is MY opinion that if that gospel were to be “preached” today the world would be changed in too many ways to imagine! Religion is not God! I am a supreme Deist, but I LOATHE religion whether it be atheism or fundamentalism. Atheism is a reaction to “christianity’s” abuses over the past 2000 years and believe me I do believe they have every right to be heard and respected. Religion is totally created by the mind not the heart(spirit)! It is my eternal desire that Christ will continue to build up my spirit while bringing an end to my mind.
Christ is in me and I am in Christ! Such immeasurable joy!!
living in the deep south, I see christianity heading in dozens of directions at once. The fundamentalists are moving deeper into dementia, especially the “left behind” waiting for the apocalypse crowd. I see many of them moving into the same kind of direction as the muslim has, especially in the rural areas. On the other side, I see the liberal christians moving more and more away from the bible as literal truth. In between, as has often been the case, there are many variations. Ministers, each feeling they are embued with the “correct” interpretation, lead their flocks in their ways.
I feel that trying to plot the path of Christianity here in the US is probably as futile as trying to herd cats.
U.S. Religious Landscape Survey : http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
What worries me is the insistence by these “Jesus freaks” that Christianity is the only answer. If that were so, how come all those other religions are still there, despite being hammered by the new evangelists?
I get so bloody tired of someone telling me I’m on the “Wrong Path”. It’s nothing to do with anybody else what “path” I’m on. I’m happy – leave me the f*** alone!
I don’t really know with NZ–I know that a large proportion of Auckland is almost entirely made up of immigrants… and most of them are religious. The Polynesian community is very religious (thanks to the European evangelicals) and they consider it the core of their culture, though honestly they were spiritual, or had their own gods before the White Man came along, and imo interpret the Catholic/Christian/Ramen God as a sort of fusion of the two.
That said, around 70-80% of students in my classes identify as agnostic/atheist, or question their religious backgrounds. We’re a very isolated country, idk idk.
Australia seems to be following the US, all be it at a slower pace. Evangelical Christianity is on the rise, especially the Assemblies of God. Just this morning several national papers are highlighting how the proposed National Curriculum for public education leaves the way somewhat open for Intelligent Design to be passed of as science, wheres the existing State curriculum quite explicitly exclude it from being passed of as a Scientific theory.
Recently we have seen the rise of a mega Church called Hillsong. And a minor political party called Family First, which everyone knows is run by the Assemblies of God, though they deny being a religious party.
We also have our share of wingnuts willing to claim that natural disasters massive bushfires that killed over 100 people and leveled several small towns where divine punishment. Yes said wingnut had run as a Family First candidate. He also claimed to have found a satanic alter which was being used to put curses on the federal Parliament.
Some research published earlier this year showed that politicians in Australia are using religious belief to justify their position on various issues more frequently then they have in the past.
For a lot of folks, out the window… :)
The people that I know that have a religious belief has it to lean on but they rarely overdo it. Of course we have our fair share of extremists, but i dont see them serveil in the end.
(Please right my grammar or spelling if you see any mistakes.)
Correction: More people than you might think “find god” and that is mosylt followed by some time in the rehab… unfortunaly, finding god in a psychosis doesnt mean they dismiss it when they’re clean again.
Over here islam is also on the rise, but mostly due to immigration, a few years back there had to be a mosque in every county.
So far we havent heard of these new “modern” churches like other countrys havewhere they try to be hip and reach for the younger audience. We have our mormons in a small scale, and other churches like “Pentecostal Church”, Jehovas and other small “free churches” (i used google to translate that one, doesnt sound right…). But mosylt people go to church 4 or five times in their own lifetime (and maybe a few more for their friends): chistening, wedding (but most people my generation (born 80′s) get married castle manner), a few of their own childrens christenings and then for funerals.
Canada is far less religious than the US, but probably more religious than most of Europe. Because we are so inundated with American culture (ie American tv), it’s often hard to determine the beliefs of Canadians. I see a rise in evangelical fanatacism, and it is obvious to me why that is. Whenever a power group is threatened with a loss of some of that power, people get threatened. There is discord and often loss of life. This was true for the suffragette/ feminist, abolition/civil rights, gay rights, and the “new atheist” movements. The christian right-wing reacts with extremism and sometimes violence (including threats of violence) because they see that with the abundant access to ACTUAL information now, it’s harder to keep people ignorant (and religious.). That said, an astounding number of people still are (ignorant & religious).
My view is that christianity is in its death throes. It cannot possibly survive an open society based on inquisition, curiosity, easy access to information, and search for truth. Most eras last just over 2000 years, and this one (the Pisces era – as in the “jesus fish”) is about to give way to the Age of Acquarius, where people are governed by conscience rather than religious structures. If you are a bible-believer, Jesus himself said “I will be with you to the end of the aeon”, which means “era”. I am not a follower of astrology, but it is amazing how must history has followed this pattern. I think too that it is an inevitable evolution of human beings. I heard somewhere that human IQ is going up about 3 percentage points every 50 years now. It’s too difficult for most intelligent people to house reality, and the cognitive dissonance required to believe in magic, in their heads at the same time, so they will have to discard religion or end up in a white padded room. There may be a different kind of “spirituality” available that enables us to connect to ourselves, others, the environment, the universe, whatever….but as it stands now, I am a rationalist and as such make decisions based on evidence.
Bottom line for me, notwithstanding the very loud and obnoxious death rattle of the christian right, it is inevitable that this is a dying belief system.
One more thing. I’m very optimistic when I think of how humanity can flourish if we can get rid of the violence, divisiveness, and superstition of religion. It is a bane on society. I like the way Mark Twain put it:
The so-called Christian nations are the most enlightened and progressive…but in spite of their religion, not because of it. The Church has opposed every innovation and discovery from the day of Galileo down to our own time, when the use of anesthetic in childbirth was regarded as a sin because it avoided the biblical curse pronounced against Eve. And every step in astronomy and geology ever taken has been opposed by bigotry and superstition. The Greeks surpassed us in artistic culture and in architecture five hundred years before Christian religion was born.
~Mark Twain, autobiography
Most of the fundies have lef our downtown due to too much debauchery and sin. There is less bad things happening in the burbs, you know…less drugs, less sex, less vandalism and above all else…less things for bored kids to do. Perfect place to raise a family and keep everybody happy cause Jesus is only for those who believe in “family values”! People who don’t have “family values” just don’t fit in. My mother never liked going downtown and she made sure we didn’t do that on our own as kids. Once we moved to the big city. I found the biggest record and book stores were in fact downtown. Objecting to my numerous trips(25 minutes) to downtown, she said: “why don’t you move down there with THEM”. I thought she was talking about those giant ants in the 50′s horror flick! She was wrong, there aren’t any giant ants downtown, but the stigma of sin living and breathing downtown stuck with the rest of my family. Fortunately my dad had a brain and didn’t buy this crap. Still the fundies perpetuate the lie that those living downtown are living in sin while those in the burbs are going to heaven. There are no fundamental churches at all downtown…….the Catholic cathedral, “ultra-high” Anglican churches and so many more dot the landscape. Look to the suburbs and you will find Jesus in a “Holy-Land” mall.