An interesting story on the BBC; about a Muslim cleric, Dr Muhammad Tahir ul-Qadri, who has issued an unequivocal 600 page Fatwah against terrorism, and who runs a sort of anti-terrorism Summer school for young Muslims.
Some of the arguments he uses are quite weak, being based on a combination of scripture and some fairly torturous logical leaps:
“Love is purity, he tells them. The Arabic word for love used in the Koran is related to the word for seed. No plant can grow without a seed – and so no pious act can grow without love. If love is the seed of every act of piety, then how can an act of hate like terrorism please God?”
On the other hand, he also delivers a message which I think is important:
“Get integrated into British society. It’s not against your religion. Has the word Pakistan been revealed in the Koran? If you can be Pakistani and Muslim, why can you not be Muslim and British?”
I wish this message was being repeated loudly in Mosques around the country. The question, of course, is whether it really isn’t or whether naysayers are simply drowning it out. Back to Dr Tahir ul-Qadri:
“Extremists and terrorists are in the minority in the Muslim ummah [brotherhood]. But they have always been vocal. The majority have always been against extremism and terrorism, but unfortunately they have always been silent. The Islamic solution is integration.”
There are some important points there which I would contend.
Firstly, are the majority really against terrorism? Drawing parallels with the Northern Ireland conflict, I know several people on the Loyalist (i.e. Protestant) side who never spoke out in favour of terrorism or sectarian violence against Republicans (i.e. Catholics), but whose silence on the subject had the unpleasant air of tacit approval. Are British Muslims any different, I wonder?
Secondly, the assertion that “The Islamic solution is integration”. This I cannot agree with. The evidence I see in news from around the world suggests to me that Islam has all the characteristics of what Iain M Banks calls a “hegemonising swarm” – it conquers new territory and replicates itself, leaving only copies of itself behind. Of course, I have to accept that most of what I see comes to me through a tightly controlled media filter with a hefty dose of bias – Stories about Abu Hamza are never likely to make many Westerners happy.
None of that, however, should take away from Dr Tahir ul-Qadri’s good intentions. It is refreshing to see a high-profile, well-respected Imam who actually speaks against cultural and religious isolationism and terrorism. It’s also encouraging to read that his lectures are well attended by young, British Muslims.
It is heartening to see his work. He’s right though, the majority of Muslims here are against terrorists.
The main reason this hasn’t come to light is that many Muslims were in denial about terrorists, dismissing them with wish-washy conspiracy theories, rather than admit the real problem. Unscrupulous politicians and news channels were also the problem. Some politicians see this as a way to get the support of the far-right. News channels also produce biased news in order to create conflict and attract viewers. The general attitude has changed though, partly due to Bush not being President anymore. He alienated a lot of Muslims, a attitude generally called ‘Anti-American’ by the media even though what the Muslims were really against was the civilian killings in Iraq, Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan.
For example, there was a recent debate which asked whether the some of the more moderate factions in the Taliban could be negotiated with. Many prominent Muslims called for a take-no-prisoners approach if the Taliban did not respond to negotiations or did not concede enough points.
I hope this helps.
Disregard this comment. I’ve been proven wrong on pretty much all these points by a more in-depth experience of Islam in my country.
The big problem here is about imbalance of power. We see the world split into neat little countries. Most in the Middle East were made up by the Brits after the collapse of the Ottoman empire after WWI. Muslims see the world differently. When the US and Britain imposed illegal sanctions against Iraq after the first gulf war and 500,000 children died, this turned many Muslims against the US (particularly Osama B/L). They felt that killing Iraqi children was an attack on the body of Muslims. Because it was done by a country we don’t call it terrorism. They do!
Yes muslims need to integrate and drown out the radicals. But we also need to stop killing thousands of Muslim civialians in the Middle East and then perhaps Muslims wouldn’t wish to kill themselves in suicide bombings.
Just a thought!
Muslims have always thought of themselves as a single body. It’s actually one of the sayings of Muhammad. And Muslims take those seriously.
Indeed, but I suspect there’s something of the same thing as the “brotherhood” of Christianity in that, too – That is, if that person doesn’t interpret Islam in the same way that you do, then he can’t be a *real* Muslim and therefore isn’t really part of the brotherhood. No True Scottsman applies to more than one religion it seems!
Incidentally, isn’t it interesting that the nouns and pronouns we commonly use to describe religious fraternities (accidental case in point there) are exclusively male?
Sorry for the really late reply: The brotherhood of Muslims is more expansive than the one in Christianity. For e.g., a commonly held view is that all Muslim nations should help each other in times of need. This played a large part in the Afghan war. It’s a concept that’s also been twisted around by clerics to explain how terrorists are our ‘Muslim brothers’. Hope that clarifies it.
Maybe a thread should be started for all this stuff.
An adendum here: I wrote and submitted this at the same time that ‘Nope wrote and submitted the article below it; it’s coincidence that two stories about related issues were published next to each other – Just so people don’t think I’m trying to point score off of ‘Nope!
Its amazing what you can come up with using a bit of google-fu. Here´s what this peace loving Muslim intellectual gets up to when not under the gaze of the Western media:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fS5XCY6jFFUJ:www.minhaj.org/english/tid/9832/Shaykh-ul-Islam%E2%80%99s-Historical-Contributions-in-the-Field-of-Law.html+For+three+days+from+November+14+to+17,+1985+Dr+Qadri&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
Wow. Non-finality would be a sect like Baha’i, is that correct?
I believe it means that they say Muhammed was the last ever prophet of Allah and that there can never be any more, so if anybody claims to be one then they’re a heretic. I kind of wish Jesus had thought of saying that and spared us all Benny Hinn…
It wouldn’t work though, because Jesus still has to return.
Right, and since Baha’u'llah broke away from Islam, he’s double-damned. There used to be a lot of college kids who were interested in Baha’i, so when i hear about the Iranians and Taliban killing Baha’is, I worry about chapels being attacked in the US.
Hmmm, you are wise in the ways of Google Fu indeed. The same article talks about how he succesfuly defeated a court ruling in Pakistan which would have outlawed death by stoning, got anti-blasphemy laws passed, and had a law enacted making it okay to pay money to a woman’s relatives if you murder here instead of being punished.
I wonder at the man’s sudden (apparent) move towards liberalism now that you’ve shown me that link.
Is there anything more up to date as I think people are allowed to change their views over time …
Reading through the bio that Burpy posted the link to, I would say there’s not a lot that suggests to me that he’s as liberal as I originally thought, I must say.
Meh. It’s the same with Christianity, really, except that Britain is already majority Christian, as is the US. The silence of the majority is a way of signaling that they don’t really have a problem with killing abortionists, killing gay people, bombing countries filled with brown people, and Christian terrorism in general, as long as they don’t have to get their hands dirty. When was the last time you saw someone organizing against any of those things and citing Christianity as their reason for doing so? If the answer isn’t “never” it’s probably a pretty long time ago.
There actually is a tiny percentage of Catholics who are total pacifists. Read up on the clergy who protested during the Vietnam war.
I am not a religious person at all and I use to live in that culture where Qadri is from. However, I do want to say that religion has lost its spiritual value (if ever there was any) and have been politicized by the wealthy and powerful for their own benefits. Qadri is an A-Hole, and he is very much capable of changing his own statements however he see fits. So this Muslim against terrorist is bogus thing. Something to show to the world as now their arses are being kicked by the rest of the world. Yes there are so many Muslims who are truly and sincerely against such acts, Qadri is not one of them.
I apreciate your input and first-hand experience dude, welcome to UF.
This guy is a hypocrite. As I mentioned that I was from the same culture as he is. I used to belong to a sect that is considered as Non-Muslim and infidel according to the constitution of Pakistan. This sect has be persecuted for so many years and the people of this sect have migrated out of that country and have moved to UK, Canada, Germany, USA etc. The people of this sect are allowed by the government to be murdered openly and discriminate openly and there is no law protecting them. These anti-terrorism schools are just face to rest of world. Again as I mentioned above, the west is kicking the arses of Muslims now, and the Muslim world makes these kind of political and hypocritical moves just to make the west happy. I would just say, do not waste the time to analyse their statement to find out the points of contradictions as the whole text must be considered as a lie. This guy is one of the leading who is spreading hatred against the sect as I mentioned above.
You mean the Ahmadis? They’re the only sect declared unconstitutional as it was.
I can see change, albeit slower in the muslim world, mainly because of the newer generation of both muslim/christian/your religion here…..
I believe with the onslaught of social networking and the availability of the internet, the youth of any religious stripe may see the world a bit differently. I realize that such far-reaching media has its downside, especially if I lurk at some…………for lack of a better term……”interesting” fundy and Neo sites. The WWW can get a message of hate out quickly, but it can also yield some fascinating back and forth, perhaps making a young person feel less isolated.
actually, I can see the argument that what I just said was balderdash. must be these voices in my head… ;)
He seems to have learned the number one rule of international diplomacy. If you want to murder people within your own borders, make sure you make some soothing noises towards the West. The Saudis understand this this, but Saddam didn´t. If you do it properly, when the persecuted minority resists, you can have them labelled “terrorists” and the West will then sell you the tools with which to murder them.
It’s funny how Islam is this huge life force of human activity that has left profound footprints in the history of greatest accomplishments. Islam is not a political wheel Islam is not a Military front Islam is not a Scientific or Modern Technology probe competitive with mainstream disciplines. However the rich and life enhancing legacies The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) pioneered and left behind and lasted up until the fifteenth century(about eight centuries after his death) Islam is the perfect religion (when practiced the way of (The Prophet )But conducive with the haters of Islam for their knowledge of the above is a threat to the social economical environment whose financial foundation rest on alcohol sales and consumption, gambling INTEREST$$$(which is really the number one killer of American consumers) The entertainment industry rooted in illicit foul sexual promiscuityand debauchery.Islam changed all the above in pre Islam Arabia. So read and discover who the real enemy is
Drive-by Muslim fundie troll. That’s unusual.
Then the day is full of surprises. I love how he says that Islam is the “perfect religion.” Wow. Really. So perfect, that millions of people who follow it get it wrong. So perfect that Muhammad’s descendants got into an argument about who was the successor to Muhammad, thus leading to the Shi’a/Sunni split. So perfect that people commit atrocities in the name of Islam–oh, but I’m sure our drive-by Muslim fundie troll will say that they’re not True Muslims ™.
Yep. And Muslims are big on the “perfect religion” thing. How the world is perfect, how humans are perfect, blah, blah, blah.
Funny how the perfect religion tends to become hell on earth for those that don’t follow it voluntarily.
Just out of curiosity seeing that your last post was over a hundred days ago and you fall right into the conversation from some blogg flatline time warp.What do you do check your Muslim fly trap while keeping fresh batteries for pacemakers.
Just kidding Just Curious
“Just out of curiosity seeing that your last post was over a hundred days ago …”
I don’t know maybe it’s because there’s something on the blog’s homepage to show the latest posts and you posted … isn’t technology a wonderful thing, you should try it.
Just kidding Just Curious
You forgot to add “Just insipid.”
Hmm, this fundie has better grammar than most. An overabundance of brackets and a lack of full-stops and commas are some of the weaknesses though.
This is a classic example of the somewhat intelligent and well-educated Islamic fundie. I happen across a lot of them in my life. Notice how they vaguely refer to the scientific accomplishments of Muslim scientists as an example of how great Islam is. Also the emphasis on the evils of the West – mostly sex and media related. Also, the use of the ‘No True Scotsman’ argument. Muslims commonly use the excuse that militant Muslims do not follow the true teachings of Islam and are, therefore, not True Muslims. They also believe that greater knowledge of the true teachings of Islam will cure all social ills.
About the interest thing: Muslims believe that interest is forbidden by Allah. Guess who that screwed over. *hint*Shylock. We actually have some interest-free Islamic banks.
Basically, they think that you can walk into a bank, say, “I want a loan that I’ll pay back in 10 years, without any interest, and the money will be devalued, because inflation.” and actually get a loan.
Feel free to ask if you have any more questions.
Peace. In the Quran Allah tells us if someone owes you a debt after a long period of time that it is best to forgive it-the balance is weighed with the charity and alms given by the believers to offset the cost-and furthermore Allah says it is better to remit the debt after so long. And furthermore help from the unseen (blessings) that you and I take for granted increases the status with our Creator as well as Allah providing their daily needs. Dare to imagine if you cant realize that true freedom in this world is not financial freedom but satisfaction and gratefulness to your Lord for the many gifts that are granted to us that we daily overlook. But when one has the focal point that we leave this world taking nothing with us except good deeds then ones ambitions are to be thankful, to help others, strive to please Allah and with that comes true peace and tranquility. Peace
“In the Quran Allah tells us if someone owes you a debt after a long period of time …”
Yes but in the Harry Potter books, Harry (for it is he) says you should send the boys around to beat the crap out of him until he pays up. Now “peace” is all well and good but it’s not going to get you that extra money for a new TV is it?
Peace.Such a shallow and superficial understanding of life grasshopper.Human life is not subject to dollars and cents. Thats the problem now-life is being played out as a big cinematic blogg of senseless consumerism and material worship.Islam teaches compassion for someone who is having hardship paying off a debt. Not to further inflict financial murder (which is worse than actual murder-because its a slow death) on them with interest upon which they will never be able to pay back anyway.Peace
Not to further inflict financial murder (which is worse than actual murder-because its a slow death) on them with interest upon which they will never be able to pay back anyway.
I’m gonna go ahead and disagree with you there and say that actual murder is worse than financial “murder”.
Call me crazy.
Peace. Wouldn’t it be less painful to die suddenly(I’m not implying any form of suicide or murder) then for financial institutions to slowly drain people dry of their earning i.e compound interest on credit cards,paying double the price of a house over a period of time, hidden cost and fees banks and insurance companies blood suck CONSUMERS with. And I blew up the word consumer because that is what we’ve been reduced to. And as people struggle to keep bare bone necessities-working three jobs and whatever they can…you know the rest.Forgive me my point is Islam teaches common sense charity respectful detachment from material indulgence to appreciate the real value of life and that the only thing a person can take with them when they leave this world is how they worshiped Allah and how they treated people and the earth…deeds/ actions for the Day of Judgement. Peace
Well, let me ask you.
Would you rather pay interest, or would you rather die?
Would you rather have no assets, or would you rather die?
Would you rather be indebted, or would you rather die?
So how are you going to buy that tv then? Not that you should care as Allah is preparing the coals for you arrival as sinner against him. It’s hot poker time …
“In the Quran Allah tells us if someone owes you a debt after a long period of time that it is best to forgive it-the balance is weighed …”
What your book commands you to do, and what its followers Actually Do have always been two different things. Just like every other religion in the world.
@Sunny Day
My understanding is that you can take out a mortage for a house and over the life time of the mortage you pay “rent” for living in the property that you own which of course isn’t that as paying interest at all. Of course Allah’s never going to see through that one is he … I wonder if he’s sitting in heaven think, damm I didn’t think of that; maybe this free will thing isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
Peace.But unlike every other religion the book in which ‘Shariah Laws are derived-The Glorious Quran is the absolute untampered, unrevised word of Allah.And those who follow are blessed with guidance. Those who don’t Allah will deal with them.Example if the person driving in front of you clearly runs a red light-are you going to pose a public safety hazard and follow his example. The higher bar of reasoning is Islam it’s a perfect religion of surrender to the will of Allah-not the will of my own desires and whims.
The Glorious Quran is the absolute untampered, unrevised word of Allah.
How do you know?
Those who don’t Allah will deal with them.
Sounds vaguely threatening. Should people join your religion only because they feel threatened?
Example if the person driving in front of you clearly runs a red light-are you going to pose a public safety hazard and follow his example.
So, hold on, are you saying that Muslims are incapable of doing bad things? Or that their doing bad things is irrelevant as long as they are Muslims?
The higher bar of reasoning is Islam it’s a perfect religion of surrender to the will of Allah-not the will of my own desires and whims.
So then why do Muslims often disagree about what that will is?
“Feel free to ask if you have any more questions.”
Can I borrow some money?
No.
Sue about that … what if I ask extra nicely?
sue … sure … wht the heck!
So you are paying a little attention and you proved my point Islam is perfect,and fundamentally speaking our beloved Prophet (PBU) proved to be the most influential leader in history on all fronts-religious leader(Prophet) statesman ,military leader,family man etc. Read Tom Hart 100 most influential people he is listed as number one because of these heavy burdens of responsibilities he(PBBU) carried out. Unfortunately it has been the peoples negligence to shoulder these phenomenal characteristics at least up until the fifteenth century.So again Islam has been the perfect way of life if modeled after our beloved Prophet peace and blessings be upon him.
I would consider this one as my last comment as only a walk by-I don’t want to drive by and leave anybody behind.
“Prophet (PBU)” and “he(PBBU)” …
You do realise that Allah is going to see you can’t be arsed to make the effort here and put the real words in. Doesn’t your own book of fairy tales say you’re going to burn in hell for that – rather you than me?
Peace.No sir the abbreviation for ‘Peace be upon him’ is as common as the the misinformation and disrespect you and others run amuck with against Islam but thank you anyway my message is only for sincere people in search of the truth about Islam.Peace
The Q’ran says that salt water and fresh water won’t mix. That’s not true. It’s something most ten year-olds could tell you is not true. So how is your book perfect and holy, please?
Peace. It has been proven true, though recently there has been a mix of scientific opinion for example geography studies for the longest said Africa was the oldest continent. Now its supposed to be Asia.But one thing is certain The Quran is the uncorrupted word of God. Allah also describes in the Quran the blood clot or fetus women carry in the wombs as a gift of life…and this was over fourteen hundred years ago.How old is the study of Embryology-not nearly as old.Peace
Which one is it, a blood clot or a fetus?
I ask because one is right and the other is wrong. Does the Qur’an say ‘blood clot’ or does it say ‘fetus’?
Peace. They are the same-it starts out as a blood clot then develops into a fetus. Peace
Custador was right, you are a fecking idiot aren’t you?
Well, no, it doesn’t start out as a blood clot at all. If you believe that, you are woefully mistaken. But that doesn’t address the question.
The question was, is the word used to describe the entity inside of a pregnant woman in the passages you are referring to to make this claim about the scientific accuracy of the Qur’an “blood clot”, or is it “fetus”? If it is the word “fetus”, then the Qur’an is accurate, if obviously so even for a person of that time period, and if it is “blood clot”, then it is wrong and you can kiss that argument goodbye.
Which is it?
Answer the question.
Does the Q’ran say that salt water and fresh water will not mix? Yes, it does.
Is the Q’ran completely wrong about that? Yes, it is.
So if I accept your premise that “The Quran is the uncorrupted word of God”, then I have to conclude that God is either lying or stupid.
Of course, I don’t accept that there is any such thing as “God”, which does rather simplify things for me.
Since I’m a nice guy, I’ll educate you as to exactly why the Q’ran is dead wrong: Salt water and fresh water mix together to form water that’s saltier than the fresh water and less salty than the salt water you started with. Because it’s water. With salt in it.
If your amazing God book can’t even get the simple concept of different concentrations of solutes in fluid right, then it’s no wonder that so many Muslim theocracies are still in the stone age – fluid electrolyte balance being a defining factor of osmosis, osmosis being fundamental to cellular biology and cellular biology being an extremely important part of medicine.
In fairness to the Q’ran, anybody who has a passing familiarity with earlier religious texts will recognise it for the rather obvious collection of plagiarisms that it is. And yet you believe that an illiterate camel trader flew to heaven on a winged horse and memorised is verbatim straight from God? Seriously, how far are you willing to stretch credulity with such obvious fiction?
Peace. So simple your blind-may Allah guide you. Peace
ANSWER THE QUESTION! Does the Q’ran say that? YES. Is it wrong? YES.
Stop deflecting and ADDRESS THE POINT.
Allah will see through such a cheap trick surely? You’re going to burn in hell make no mistake about that.
Peace.I don’t judge weather another Muslim is real or not I only quote by Quran and The Prophet (PBBUH) with a little of my own views which can be taken with a few grains of salt.My only purpose in this dialogue is to deliver the message of One God and the last Prophet(PBBUH) to the best of my humble ability.Peace
“The Prophet (PBBUH)” and “Prophet(PBBUH)” …
.. and twice more; my, my, your arse is going to be roasted for that – bend over it’s hot poker time!
I mean fancy taking Mo’s name in vain – what where you thinking?
PBBUH = peace be bitchin’ upon him.
May Allah curse you or guide you
Any God that would curse a man for getting an honorific wrong is entirely too small-minded and puny to have created the universe.
Or just a nasty little fucker …
The evidence is on your side there, I must say…
I do believe being a nasty little fucker, in this case, comes from trying to compensate for being puny and small-minded.
Could be ..
Peace. “All The Above”
The Quran was revealed to The Prophet Muhammad (PBBUH) in a twenty three year time span,historical accounts of these revelations are in books called Hadiths (History of the Prophet(PBBUH). Revelations in the Quran concerning one of the many gifts Allah gives for example the description of the fetus inside the womb.No man could have known such a thing fourteen hundred years ago Embryology isn’t that old.Do you believe if you murder someone…you will be held accountable in a court of law.Then why would you not be held accountable for actions committed in this life on the Day of Judgement.People have a choice to believe and live good lives. Or disbelieve… freedom of choice is a futile argument. If you eat a rotten apple-you get sick. Eat good fruit you get healthy. Muslims like anyone else are capable of doing wrong.But I will leave you with the words of Malik El Hajj Shabazz (aka Malcolm X) in this regard.’To have been a criminal is no disgrace-but to remain a criminal thats a disgrace.’ Peace
You didn’t answer my question. Does the Qur’an say “blood clot” or does it say “fetus”?
Do you believe if you murder someone…you will be held accountable in a court of law.
Only if you get caught. Otherwise there is no external accounting. It would be nice if the universe were an inherently just place, but the reality is that the innocent and guilty suffer alike.
People have a choice to believe and live good lives.
Those are separate choices. Or do you believe it is impossible for unbelievers to be good people?
If you murder someone you have been caught by the One who sees, hears, and knows everything and if no person saw you it all comes out on the Day of Judgement.If there are non Muslims who are good people and I have met some I alway pray they will become Muslim.A Muslim submits to accountability whether someone’s looking or not.
A Muslim submits to accountability whether someone’s looking or not.
So does an atheist. It’s called “having a conscience”. Even if nobody else witnesses your acts, you do, and have knowledge of their immediate effects. That you see fit to externalize having a conscience with a God seems to me an unnecessary extra step, but if it works for you then kudos.
f you murder someone you have been caught by the One who sees, hears, and knows everything and if no person saw you it all comes out on the Day of Judgement.
In your opinion. Of course, nobody has actually seen any physical evidence of Allah judging people (or, really, Allah doing anything), so I’ll just chalk this part up to being your opinion and move on. If you have some evidence that Allah is watching me even now, by all means provide it.
“for example the description of the fetus inside the womb.No man could have known such a thing fourteen hundred years ago”
Are you seriously suggesting that nobody would have been capable 1400 years ago of cutting open a pregnant woman and seeing a fetus? Or of, oh, I don’t know, WATCHING A BIRTH and figuring out that the baby coming out of the woman had to be inside of the woman in the first place? Man, you’re a fucking idiot!
Peace. Ha Ha the level of disrespect here is so parallel if not riding shotgun with the ignorance of self and purpose of life. Sir fourteen hundred years ago where was this knowledge of what was inside the womb recorded outside of Quran. Your caveman logic only works if there is recorded case studies alongside of it. Peace
I’ll refer to to Custador’s reply …
“Man, you’re a fucking idiot!”
I’ll also pray for you.
Saif replied to this, but it was an extremely offensive pile of crap about how ignorant and arrogant we all are for not believing his brand of fairy-tales, and I’m on nights right now and am therefore not in the mood to put up with crap like that from an emotionaly undeveloped, credulous, unquestioning twat who can’t even address the issues that are demonstrably wrong in this crappy pile of plagiarised bullshit that he refers to as “perfect and holy”. So I deleted it.
Sir fourteen hundred years ago where was this knowledge of what was inside the womb recorded outside of Quran.
Well, from documented evidence the Ancient Egyptians (c. 2300 years or so before the Qur’an) had a decent amount of obstetric knowledge. One of the mythic legends concerning Aesculapius (the Greek God of Medicine), namely the one that gives him his name (which in Greek means “to cut open”), a Caesarian section procedure is described in detail. The Bible (OT) describes a fetus developing, using the metaphor of God knitting together flesh. On a more practical level, Galen (the famous ancient physician) spends some significant time discussing findings regarding fetal health and development.
All of these sources predate the Qur’an, some by thousands of years. That doesn’t even get into Ancient Chinese and Indian medical knowledge (which was also extensive, around the same time period). In fact, if the Qur’an describes a fetus as starting as a blood clot, it is significantly behind most societies’ knowledge at the time of its writing.
Peace. Documented evidence from a Myth god of medicine?Are you serious
That’s what you’re presenting as evidence. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, as they say. If you want to use the Qur’an as evidence, then you open up the field for others to use their holy books and texts as evidence. And, given that the legend does detail rather specific knowledge of fetal development as well as medical procedures for birth under difficult circumstances, it indicates clearly that the Greeks were conversant in these concepts, contrary to your claims that the Quar’an was the first description of such knowledge.
So, the Bible, Greek myth, Egyptian gynaecological reference texts, and Galen all beat the Qur’an to the punch on the truth, and did so with greater accuracy to boot. Man, that’s pretty embarrassing.
Well, the Greeks did write about embryology centuries before the Koran. And the Koranic description is basically a plagiarized copy of Galen. And no the claim on Muslim apologetic sites that no one seen Mohammad reading Galen and copying it is not proof that it wasn’t plagiarized.
Peace. Didn’t come from the Bible which was originally the ‘Injeel’ which is no longer in existence.Pardon me but I don’t trust the lengthy chain of information.And taken aside from the scientific and medical evidences we wont agree on.Do you think a person at some point longs to know who his creator is what the purpose of life is what is best role model for overall human success. So what about guidance. Peace
What didn’t come from the bible? What the fu*k is injeel and why isn’t it longer in existence?
Why am I not surprised that a fundie will ignore information that doesn’t fit with his holy book of choice.
Not really, you do understand that we as atheists don’t believe in a creator?
I know it’s not an illiterate, pedophile, 7th century camel trader/highwayman.
Peace.May Allah guide you.You have eyes but you cant see-ears but you cant hear and your heart is sealed shut. Sorry I couldn’t help you…only Allah guides. Peace
Poetic nonsense. We have eyes to see but you do not write answers to our questions.
Sorry I couldn’t help you…
You didn’t even try.
They never do, El. All they do is come on here, spout some drivel about how their “holy” book tells them everything they need to know about everything and they can prove it with pre-packaged bullshit responses, and when they get called on it (seriously, why do these godtards think that we don’t know diddly about their religions??), they retreat into poetic nonsense. It’s as predictable as a computer program.
Peace. Woe to you. I wish you guidance because if you truly know who Allah is then on the Day of Judgement it will be too late to submit. I am only conveying a message. Allah is the One who makes Muslims I am not engaging in a baseless and arrogant religious debate. I am only conveying a message for those who hear see and have decent hearts I keep it moving man. Im sorry I could not help you I pray Allah guides you. And it starts with individual respect to fellow human beings whether or not we agree or disagree..we at least should be mindful of that.Peace
I wish you guidance because if you truly know who Allah is then on the Day of Judgement it will be too late to submit.
Why? Why would it be too late? There’s a time limit on salvation? Why would Allah be arbitrary and capricious in that manner?
Because when the truth is presented and its refuted and people continue to associate others with Allah as gods then on the Day of Judgement after they have been warned comes accountability.
Peace.The Bible has been proven to be tampered with and revised multiple times unlike the Quran the word of God can never be revised.It stays the same… people change things. But my work is done here to you your way and to me my way, There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His last prophet. Peace
If you need to believe that someone is always watching you for you to act accountably, that doesn’t mean anyone is really there. It’s really interesting how untrustworthy anyone thinks anyone else is unless they scare them into thinking they’re never alone.
As an experiment, put some delicious soda in a room with someone and tell them please don’t drink it until you get back, but they can eat the crackers. Next phase, tell them there are cameras in the room, which are more evident than god, by the way. You can hang fake cameras on the wall and people will not be helping themselves to a glass of soda while they wait for you if they believe you can check the tape.
Similarly, if they think they will be accountable when they die, people might be a little better behaved, but experience tells me they are often liars and will make up loopholes where god can’t see them. On the other hand, many people are good without god and honorable and accountable to themselves because they want to know they are a good person when they look in the mirror.
If you’re wrong about Islam, it will also be too late to change your mind. It’s no more convincing than Christianity, by the way.
Peace. Do some more research.Peace
If we did, would we simply run into the same lack of response to simple questions we ran into with you here?
LOL! So because we’ve demonstrated your holy book to be full of shit, you’re going to skip out after telling us to do some more research? YOU are the one who needs to learn, not us, and you’ve proven that in spades.
More research … I already know that you’re somewhat of a twat, what else do you wish me to know?
p.s. Are you a virgin?
Peace. May Allah guide you. I strongly recommend you pick up a Quran and ask God to open your heart and mind-then proceed to read. My work is done here.Peace
There’s a Qur’an (trans. Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall, original script included) sitting not ten feet away from me right now. It’s sitting on my bookshelf, among all the other books I’ve read (it’s sitting right between an NIV Study Bible and Issac Asimov’s Foundation and Earth, pretty esteemed company if you ask me). It’s an interesting book, to be sure, but not exactly persuasive as a revelation.
Let me ask you something. If Allah is merciful and wants humans to come to him and submit to his will, why did he pick a language to communicate with that only a handful of humans, big picture speaking, can read and understand? Why did he pick a sort of remote desert town to receive his revelation?
Ha! I’ve got a Book of Mormon next my Bible and my Qur’an, and they’re all only five feet away. Also a collection of essays by Bertrand Russell, and Starhawk’s treatise on neopaganism, “The Spiral Dance”. Regrettably, nothing on Hinduism or Buddhism in my personal library yet.
My copy of Asimov’s “Foundation and Earth” is, alas, in the attic, for lack of space in my office.
So, this is the Muslim equivalent of “I’ll pray for you.” You haven’t done much “work” here, dude. If we don’t believe in the existence of the Christian god or the Jewish god, what makes you think we’ll believe in the Islamic god? There’s about as much evidence for the existence of that one as there is in the other Abrahamic religions.
You keep saying your work is done, and yet you are still here.
You are continuing to lie to us, why would we believe anything you’ve said?
So what does the second B mean in PBBUH? You used it often enough.
Butter.
Peanut Butter Blessings Upside Her
Praise the Reese’s!