Former mistress and author Holly Hill has written a book about “negotiated infidelity,” where a couple agrees the other is allowed to “stray”:
Hill’s memoir, “Sugarbabe” details her yearlong adventure with a series of so-called “sugar daddies.” The book sold 24,000 copies in her native Australia, according to her publisher, and has just been released in the United States. Holly Hill is a pen name.
“I thought it was men that would like the book,” she says, “But in fact it’s women, because what it says to women is that if your man cheats on you, he still loves you, and he’s probably running about average.”
Allowing their men to stray is a concept that’s difficult for most women to contemplate.
But Hill says that if a woman takes the time to truly examine her relationship and considers Mother Nature’s unerring spell on men’s libidos, she might realize that letting her boyfriend or spouse know she’s OK with him having sex elsewhere is a logical way to prevent him from doing it in secret.
“I think that cheating men are normal,” says Hill. “Monogamous men are heroes. Monogamy does have a place in relationships, but not on the long-term. Men are hard-wired to betray women on the long-term.”
What do you think about “negotiated infidelity”?
I think the adage that all men eventually stray is complete and utter bullshit intended to make assholes feel better about themselves.
To me, it’s the equivalent of saying, “No man has brains in excess of his hormones.” Which is very much like saying, “All women are bitches on their period.”
I think it’s a load of crap.
“All women are bitches on their period.”
I wouldn’t go right to “crap.”
Maybe “Stereotype usually pushed too far which is still, in its own way, quite accurate.”
That said, I think self-control is an under-promoted virtue. It doesn’t usually play nice with feelings of entitlement. People should have the self-control to deliver on what they promise.
+1
Testosterone levels aren’t a justification for immorality. If you willingly enter into a marriage relationship and take marriage vows, the moral thing to do is to keep them. The immoral thing to do is to break them.
“Negotiated infidelity” is a misleading term. If it’s agreed upon by both parties, then it’s not infidelity in the sense in which the term would normally be understood. I.e., if your commitments to your spouse no longer include a monogamous sexual commitment, then you’re not being unfaithful by being “unfaithful.”
Bull shit. Human beings are hard-wired to do all sorts of things that we consider to be immoral. The hard-wiring in and of itself isn’t justification for any particular behavior.
Blah.
Why do people have to commit such acts of moral cowardice as to say, “I can’t help it – men evolved this way! It’s in my genetic programming! I can’t fight my nature!”
What a load of crap.
People need to make their own choices and take responsibility for them, saying openly, “I am non-monogamous. This is my choice, and I own it.”
I know many monogamous men and many non-monogamous women, so it’s nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with individual people and their individual needs.
Skip the evo-psych copout and just be honest about your own needs and desires, I say.
Agreed. Besides, assuming they weren’t cut off with a lightsaber or something, men generally have a method for sating their libidos without betraying their partner.
I was thinking something similar as I read the article. I think it’s complete crap that women are supposed to believe and accept that their husbands are “hard-wired” to have multiple partners and that they should let them do it in the open so that they don’t hide it. I think that if you’re going to have multiple partners, you should let your partner know upfront. Plenty of men have successful, monogamous relationships. Plus, not all women prefer to be monogamous, so it’s ridiculous to suggest that it’s a male issue.
I feel bad for all the truly monogamous men whose wives will now be questioning their loyalty.
But if those wives thought that those men didn’t even want to have sex with other women, they were in fantasy land. Monogamy is a lifestyle choice. Maybe a laudable one – certainly an endurance test…
Eh, it’s not that hard. I’ve never even been tempted to cheat on my wife, and I’m going to assume that I have no more self-control and no less sex drive than the average man, so if it’s not a challenge for me, it’s probably also not a challenge for 95% of men. Unless they get bombarded with crap telling them they’re genetically programmed to cheat and they just can’t help it.
If it is 95% not a challenge for men? Then why is the average 50% men being unfaithful? 5% not a challenge is more realistic. Especially once they get in the 40s.
I don’t know how many men are incapable of being monogamous, but I’d be surprised if it’s higher than 5%. On the other hand, there are many men who choose to cheat on their wives / girlfriends / significant others. If you’re asking me why they choose to act in a manner so destructive to their relationships when they can easily avoid it, well I can’t answer that. But I think that crap like this giving them “permission” is a factor.
Just because lots of men choose to drink beer doesn’t mean that they’re alcoholics who are incapable or remaining sober.
Just one question: are you backing up your claims with actual statistical facts, or is your assessment of men’s ability to be monogamous based on *your* experience?
Just asking, because I had virtually no libido for my entire teenage life and I thought that it was that way for everybody. Ask some other people, though, and you can easily find that is not the case.
Isn’t that what her book is about?
Yep. The old “We’re wired this way, so we may as well go with it!” excuse just isn’t going to fly. People are “wired” to enjoy lots of things … food, sleep, booze, drugs, etc. Is it smart to indulge each and every sch impulse at every moment we experience them? Of course not.
Things like anger and even rage are natural physiological reactions; does that make it acceptable to act it out whenever we feel it? Of course not.
There are other, very natural bodily functions such as excretion; does that make it a good idea to just “go” wherever we happen to be when we feel the “urge”? Of course not.
The truth about human beings is that, while we ARE wired to have certain tendencies and reflexes, we ALSO happen to be wired to be able to RESIST them, if we wish to. The question then becomes, how much do we WISH to control ourselves?
I submit that too many people spend too much of their time looking for too many rationales for why they should engage in too many indulgent, impulsive behaviors. The “men are wired to stray, so they should” excuse is exactly that … just an excuse for why men cannot act like grown adults capable of controlling themselves, instead of acting like animals.
For the record … I was married for 16 years, and never once strayed on my wife. Not that I was never tempted; but despite that, I never even came close to straying. I don’t consider myself unusual; if I can control myself, any other man can.
The various juvenile ructions known as “politics” are clear evidence that there is already WAY too much immaturity in the world. Let’s not add to that by handing out yet another “permission slip” for men to act like indulgent little children.
Men are hard-wired to betray women on the long-term.
The men aren’t “betraying” the women – only the unrealistic expectations (from all sides).
As a monogamously married male, I find this kind of crap to be insulting. Most men are perfectly capable of being monogamous, and a significant number use this attitude as an excuse for being a douche. They might even believe it, but that doesn’t make it any more right.
Why is monogamy the only right thing?
Monogamy is not the only right thing. But if you enter into a relationship where you (implicitly or explicitly) agree to be monogamous, and then sleep around, that is the wrong thing.
I have no problem with polyamory, open relationships or serial monogamy, but not being honest about the type of relationship you want to be in is only going to hurt your partner(s), and doing that with knowledge aforethought is being a douche.
Keep in mind the popular notion that it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission. And in that moment, when it’s all up to you, do you want to kill the mood by calling your wife and ask her if it’s ok when you know it’s not?
It’s also part of our culture for women to put up with this whether we like it or not, but men do not tend to tolerate or forgive adultery on the woman’s part so easily. They also know fertile available women are everywhere, they don’t want to knowingly raise some other guy’s children. Women tend to, as someone says, acquiesce on a transgression like this or the man will just leave, we’re trained to want to be paired up and also pretend he’s a prince even if he never acts like it in reality, to block out things that make us unhappy, and choke on feelings of jealousy and betrayal so our children have a father and remain ignorant of the fact that he’s not such a good guy. Men, on the other hand, are not taught to choke on their feelings, well, let’s just say, they channel them more easily to anger than sadness, and do not feel obligated to raise anyone else’s children, even if that fact is hypothetical and all his children are really his. If they were meant to cheat, there’s obviously an abundance of women willing to treat them better than their wife.
I think once he agrees to stay, he expects loyalty, but cannot deny his own nature, that’s how it usually goes. It seems pretty difficult statistically to find a man who wants to have a family for real and not just sex, comparatively there are more women who will have sex with a man either not expecting a relationship or he doesn’t care, as long as she has sex with him.
But what if you start with monogamy because you do not know that there are other possible relation forms possible? And a few years later you discover that your nature is polyamorous?
This.
Then you talk to them. And if you come to some kind of agreement, everyone’s happy. And if you can’t, you either stay in the relationship with the explicit understanding that you’re going to be monogamous, or you start something new.
I think that for the most part adults who willingly enter into monogamous marriages know their own nature full well.
I’m sure that in some cultures where marriages are arranged and/or when marriages happen before adulthood, your argument might carry some weight. However, I am extremely, extremely skeptical that informed adults are very well aware of their own sexuality before taking monogamous vows. Furthermore, this seems to be the target audience of this book in the first place.
I think a lot of adults do know their nature, but they also enter marriage with a lot of other things bearing on their mind:
1) Wedding “jitters” as they’re called – this is it, did I choose the right person. The weight of imminent marriage vows cause many to ask themselves if this is someone they can and should commit to or a grave mistake? Seriously, once and for all forsaking all others. Most people go ahead and get married after they shake that off, and many divorce in less than 10 years. Even if you love each other today, you don’t know how either of you will change and feel less like you do today, or even enough to break your promise to stay faithful. Suppose that’s why “for better or worse” is part of the vow, but people really do change and grow apart and value different goals over time.
2) I think a lot of people think they get married like it’s New Year’s Day. They think it can magically transform them from a cheater into someone who doesn’t cheat. If only they believe hard enough, it’s the enthusiastic mentality of instant resolve that sets one up for failure. How many people wake up January 1 feeling like a jog, join a gym, put down that pack of cigarettes, there’s always next year, or even… “I’ll start tomorrow,” every day. I think a lot of people get married thinking this is the day they stop being an asshoIe.
3) Not such a few people absolutely believe their marriage is just on paper, and don’t believe or intend to promise the things they say up on the marriage altar. Just like this woman is saying in her book, sort of. Marriage is just a show, the woman really gets off on this frilly dream wedding day and let her have what she wants if he can have what he wants. Nothing is going to change, and as long as she doesn’t know, it’s all ok.
You’re in denial if you think people only get married because they love each other and promise to be monogamous.
Just because it’s common doesn’t mean it’s right. Would you agree? I’m not trying to dispute the fact that around half of marriages end in divorce.
I agree with that reality. But again, just because it’s common doesn’t mean it’s right.
So, kind of like when you’re a kid and you make a promise with your fingers crossed?
That’s out of left field. I never said that or anything that resembles it. I don’t dispute the reality you just presented, either. Everything you detailed above happens. But just because people do it doesn’t mean it’s “ok.”
But what if you live in a society, as we all do, that seems to assume monogamy is the way and that marrying is the normal course of life? How many women and men get pressured to get married, you’re getting old, you don’t want to die alone, when it’s really not in their nature to ever marry at all? It’s especially normal in women: past a certain age, many of them get desperate to be married – not because they want to, or they want a loving someone, but because they feel they should. Much like it happens with children, really – it’s expected.
It’s expected that you’ll grow, marry and have kids – but many of us don’t want kids (and boy, are we harassed because of it), some of us don’t want commitment, some of us want commitment, but with more than one person.
How many people think they just haven’t found the right someone (hence why they aren’t suddenly monogamous)? But what if you haven’t found the right someone because there are, in fact, multiple right someones?
Why not just go all the way and have a polyamorous/group marriage?
I think the assumption is that the women don’t want to be involved in a polyamorous relationship but they should let their men have a chance at it so that the women can keep their men.
On the contrary, woman also love polyamorous relationships.
Look at how many single girls are out there that have 4-5 best male friends around them all the time?
I think that as long as people are honest with each other and both agree to the boundries, then it is none of my business and certainly not my place to judge.
A tremendous number of people-both male and female-cheat. So obviously many people can’t, or won’t, help themselves.
So it makes more sense to be honest and find a solution agreeable to both parties.
It is a “negotiated” infidelity, after all.
I can’t help but notice the subjective line of thinking given credence that is normally ridiculed here.
Ignorance feeds the machine.
I’m not sure to what you are referring. Could you please be more explicit? TIA.
appeal to ignorance
my friend (or self) has experienced ‘such-and-such’; therefore, ‘such-and-such’ is true. if the argument is not sufficiently thorough, then there is usually a fallacy. to see this type of thinking on this site points to the fact that this demographic is still capable of poor reasoning especially when we are ignorant (and/or arrogant) of the topic.
there is no need to point fingers, so i will not be citing examples. a read through of the current comments reveals the criticism. i only intended to raise awareness. i enjoy this site and its contributors.
So…you’re saying that the statement that is an appeal to ignorance has been critiqued? So why bring it up, especially if you’re not going to respond to it directly? Further, why characterize the “subjective line of thinking” as though it was indicative of a lot of comments here? Sounds to me like you’re not “intending to raise awareness” as much as you’re positioning yourself as an intellectual superior.
ok, look guys–i don’t mean anything rude by it. i am also sorry that i failed to explain myself. i cannot qualify myself any better than i tried to above. i have read this list of comments over and over, and i still agree with what i have said.
i did not intend to be explicit or sound intellectually superior. my only defense to these misunderstandings is i might not be intelligent and/or smart enough to make a good case for my issue.
i would like to respond to what i can. Skippy, you said, “Further, why characterize the “subjective line of thinking” as though it was indicative of a lot of comments here?” this is a misunderstanding. i never said “a lot”, but i didn’t say what i meant which was “some”. i can see how i failed to quantify that. in fact, as the number of comments rose, the incidence of the above fallacy decreased.
i may not be that good at all this, but i don’t think that means i shouldn’t respond. i need to learn, and i’m kinda slow. please forgive, thanks.
Whatever a couple decide to do that doesn’t affect other people is fine by me. Typically this invokes jealousy in a few. I know a couple that are swingers, the idea is fanciful but the reality is disease or the potential for it.
If one half of the couple goes “cold” and is happy with the other half “messing around” – why should I intervene.
Why should there be a hard and fast rule on this? Clearly physical or financial injury to another person should be prohibited but this is not that.
Gotta call “full of crap” on this one. It ain’t so hard to keep the fly zipped. If a man’s cheating on his wife, there are a few reasons. 1) He doesn’t love her anymore. 2) She’s consistently frigid. 3) He has a hormone imbalance. 4) He’s just a plain asshole.
This is insulting to the decent men of the world.
There is a 5th one, people do really fall in love with multiple partners and these people are called polyamorous. I know many of them and they have happy stable relationships.
Exactly. I am one. And extremely happy. They understand each other’s place in my life and are fine.
But I don’t tell anyone because of society and it’s ability to twist everything.
Did you ever see Family, a humoristic view of polyamory?
http://kinseyconfidential.org/family-webisodes-spotlight-polyamory/
And there’s nothing wrong with that, as long as everyone is honest and up front about it.
Engaging in an open and honest polyamorous relationship, that everyone in the relationship has agreed to, is not ‘cheating’.
If EITHER member of a couple does not agree to an open or multiple partner situation, then you don’t get to do it without dissolving the existing relationship first.
@Ty
My reading of the book (based on the extensive research of reading this blog entry) is that what is being said is not that you should agree upfront it’s ok but instead it’s men will naturally stray so therefore women are being unreasonable if they don’t agree that their partners can stray … sounds a close relative of the argument that boys will be boys and if they can’t keep their knob in their pants that’s the women’s fault for not paying them enough attention.
Which is exactly what I am strenuously objecting to.
I think everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want with their naughty bits, as long as everyone involved gives informed consent.
If you’re married to a woman who wants monogamy, and you don’t want to remain monogamous, you have two choices if you’re not a shithead. You can remain in the relationship and just do without extra partners, or you can dissolve the existing relationship to pursue your own interests, and let the woman find someone who will meet her needs.
Trying to grab extra tail on the side and still keep the relationship by lying about it makes you a creep.
“Which is exactly what I am strenuously objecting to.”
… ah, I must have missed that bit!
As to the agreement up front, my concern is that for this to be considered “fair” there has to be a level of equality between both sexes and I’m not sure there currently uniformly is. It really comes down to similar objections I have to arranged marriages which seem to be heavily statcked in the male’s favour.
It is really hard to do it upfront because if you grew up you probably are so convinced that there is no other way than monogamy that you do not discuss this upfront.
When I started my current relationship we did not know that polyamory existed.
“It is really hard to do it upfront because if you grew up you probably are so convinced that there is no other way than monogamy that you do not discuss this upfront.”
That excuse carries no water with me. It’s self justification for lying and cowardice.
While some guys fantasize about a menage a trois, for example, he may feel at some point to bring it up if his girlfriend seems like she would go for it, is open-minded or whatever. Some people are even swingers. There are a few possibilities that seem more like “kinks” than a sexual preference, which are viewed as somewhat acceptable by the people who choose them, and if the couple is in agreement, one is not being co-erced. If I was told by my partner that he wants two women in bed or to swap partners with another couple, I would say no. I don’t think there’s anything I would indicate up to several months in that a guy could slide that one past me and expect me to agree, he’d know me well enough by then that I do not agree.
I don’t really know a lot about polyamory, but I do think we’re set up for monogamy culturally, it is somewhat how we are “defaulted” to heterosexual, to be otherwise is to “come out” and be different than the norm. I don’t know if people think they could force monogamy but something else is nagging at them to be with others that is just not as public as homosexuality. As a culture, we’re largely decidedly monogamous and if you don’t want to be, you play with as many partners as you like without having to say more than you just aren’t the marrying kind, you just don’t feel as though you’ll ever meet “the ONE” (and we call it “the one”) who will get them to settle down. What number of factors come into play there, just not meeting “the one”? Or just liking being single and playing the field. Whatever polyamory is, it seems like a person who wants deeper love than sleeping around, but they can’t and won’t settle on one person. I mean, that’s cool and all, but it seems also that men aren’t about to admit they are polyamorous just because they like to have sex with a variety of women. Marriage is too limiting to them, and ostensibly with polyamory, you have to think about the needs of your partners and be fair. I don’t ultimately think men are polyamorous by nature, I think they are just polysexual, i.e. horny. Polyamory is fine for those who like it and work with it, but it’s a different thing for a man to come up front in a relationship and say, honey, I just need to put my thing in a few more other women than you, I can’t help it, it’s my nature. That’s not polyamory from where I sit, that’s a red flag bad dude.
I have to say Kodi, Polyamory has nothing to do with sex, sex is optional.
You can have a perfect polyamore relationship without the sex but it is very rare. The keyword is love, the sex is less important in this case.
I don’t mean to put it down, but I guess I’m talking about two different things. A cheating guy (anyone who wants to pursue relations with other people) may realize he’s polyamorous, or he’s simply the same lying pig he was before he found out about polyamory.
We should all heed the advice of such an educated prostitute. Clearly she would be found with reliable advice and statistics!
She assumes 1) men are cheaters, or at least programmed to cheat, 2) women should be okay with said behaviour or predispositions and 3) women aren’t cheaters or programmed to cheat. This is incredibly insulting to both genders, as it preys on worn-out stereotypes about both: men are simple, sexual animals and women are needy, emotional worriers. Women can cheat just as easily as men, and men can stay faithful just as easily as women. There is no chromosomal formula to cheating: it happens and it doesn’t happen. The dynamics of a relationship, one’s past, career, obligations, home life, and integrity certainly all factor in to the possibility of cheating.
MAYBE “letting her boyfriend or spouse know she’s OK with him having sex elsewhere is a logical way to prevent him from doing it in secret”, but does that mean it’s ethical, or desirable? Not necessarily.
When society allows for, and encourages, the excuse, “boys will be boys”, of course one will assume that it’s natural, and acceptable, for men to stray. The idea that men can’t be monogamous is a cultural one; if the myth continues to be perpetuated, it only serves to be a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Men and women can fight their nature- if it can even be generalized that it is nature to want to cheat- or at least be honest about it. I’m sick of people using their genitals as an excuse- yes, you can help it, now act like an adult and use your words, instead of skulking about and lying.
mmhmm… a female friend of mine, with whom I have been discussing these sorts of things, pointed out the note of bitterness… she says it’s natural but calls it betrayal.
(full disclosure: I’m polyamorous myself)
Do you mean there’s a note of bitterness to my comment? Just clarifying.
no, in the way the woman in the article talks about it
My experience is that both male and female do cheat pretty equally.
The big difference that a woman can hide it much better from their partner than the man can hide it from the wife.
But in a lot of cases these cheating people actually do not want to cheat. They still love their partners, but the attraction to others is simply too strong. Most of them are afraid to tell their partners about their feelings because they don’t want to hurt the partners feelings.
Also, I’d like to know how much worldly “experience” Olaf here has that he has such a broad view of the cheating habits of men and women all around the world.
If two people enter the relationship on a consensus that it is not a faithful relationship..fine, there is simply no more to be said. But if they enter the relationship expecting monogamy, then a girl shouldn’t have to feel like an overbearing nag by saying “no, I am not OK with you cheating on me.”. This article makes it sound like girls everywhere should let go of the notion of monogamy, the notion that makes her happy and safe knowing her husband is truly HER husband, and let go of her self-respect and let him do what he wants based purely on whats between his legs. Guys are not slaves to their hormones no matter how much this girl says they are. Is she a top biologist in the field of male hormones and their influence on the male body? When she gets that Phd maybe I will take what she has to say seriously.
However, I truly do hope that men everywhere who so desperately feel this “need” to cheat take this woman up on her advice about going to their partners and saying that they want to be unfaithful – at least then your wife can leave you before you bring home AIDS or Herpes from sleeping with “Holly Hill” or some other dope
Well Gwen being polyamorous myself ;-)
And I really do know a lot of polyamorous people and talked to many of them the moment they discovered polyamory but was in a situation where they already had a partner and are being unfaithful because they did not know there was an alternative.
But I agree my experience is not from all around the world.
And yes there also exists hunters, woman and men that only do it for the hunt because of excitement but these are actually a minority.
I do agree that you should give your partner a chance to react before you set the next step in having a relationship with a second person. One of my second partners did start new relationships without telling me first so I dumped her because she tried to hide it.
Contrary to what you think, open relationship people are far more careful who they sleep with and take necessary protection. It is the monogamous people that chat that take less protection because they have this split second decision and happen not to have a condom with them.
A woman “permitting” her husband to cheat, unless she is just as eager to cheat herself, isn’t going to make his indiscretion hurt less it will simply make her a liar and a doormat. Sure, it will stop him from going out and doing it in secret, but he will still be hurting his wife each and every time only now she can’t speak up against him. The generalization that men are born into infidelity by the nature of their hormones is made up. It is a learned behavior. If there ARE men who’s hormones are so powerful that they can override his thought process, then that guy would have testicles the size of Cleveland, and a whole list of medical problems due to the giant hormonal imbalance in his body.
Actually, it tends not to be a hormone problem, but an impulse-control problem.
As long as there is no deception, then it’s perfectly fine.
The only time you can call it ‘cheating’ is when one party doesn’t know the actions of the other.
George Carlins 2 commandments.
Don’t lie.
Don’t kill people.
I agree, cheating means not telling the partner that there is someone else.
But a lot of people tell lies because they are convinced that there is not other way even though the do not want to lie.
I too have had a lifetime conviction that there is no other type of relationship but monogamy. Five years ago I discovered a complete series of none-monogamous relationships that works perfectly.
The common sense part of me says yes. The majority of men cheat on their partners at some point. At least if they’re honest about it then they can keep a positive relationship with them.
But the moral part of me is appalled. Surely the whole point of being in a relationship is to be committed to that person completely.
It seems to be one of those things where the gut reaction will over run the logical thought. I’m not sure which part I would prefer to win out.
what is commitment? I figured out recently that what I define as cheating is taking love without giving it back. Unless you can show there’s another, better definition, that’s the one I’m going with.
Why does a relationship require 100% commitment to only one person?
It requires whatever you agreed to up front. And when you are no longer willing to live by what you initially agreed to, it requires honestly discussing that. And being willing to lose the existing partner if they are not in agreement.
You are all forgetting that we are discussing relationships where there is normally an issue with a cheating partner. Not two consenting people in an open relationship. This woman says that girls should stop this “monogamy” idea and let their men do what they please because it prevents them doing it in secret, as if that is supposed to make his having sex with another woman feel just fine to his wife. Just because it would prevent one from doing it in secret does not mean that it makes the other partner happy. What if a girl likes monogamy? To tell him to go ahead and cheat simply to prevent secrecy would mean you were letting your partner walk all over you by getting what they want while you are left hurting. If a couple is married, then there is an overwhelming chance that at least one of them doesn’t want the other to be unfaithful – or else there probably wouldn’t be a marriage. If that is not the case and both partners are eager to experience other people while maintaining their marriage, great, but I’m going to say this happens in less than 1% of marriages.
This does not mean that there is no other relationship but monogamy but that is not the statement in the article. The article says “Hey girls, does being in a monogamous relationship make you happy? Did you marry a man under the impression that you would be faithful to each other? Do you not want him to cheat? Thats silly! Why get so upset about your husbands unfaithfulness!? After all, the fact that he has testicles makes it IMPOSSIBLE for him not to cheat – so you should quit whining and let him do what he wants because after all…he’s a man. So when you come home and he’s left a message on the machine telling you that hes boinking another woman so he’ll be home late, just whip out a pint of ice cream and try to remember why this is a good thing that you’ve given up all of your convictions and self respect. You help pay the bills and help keep your home and gave birth to his children, but remember boys will be boys”
Men should be just as disgusted by this article as women. There are more men with brains between their ears then there are men without them. I’m not saying guys don’t cheat I’m sure plenty do, but I can’t imagine its “most men” like a lot of people keep saying on this board. I know way too many men who can think with their brains and not their balls.
I just mentioned this to SWMBO – why do I have a testicle in each ear?
Seems a very strange argument. Yes men are hard wired to cheat. We produce millions of sperm at very little effort, so it is to our advantage to have lots of sex with lots of partners and let them get on with looking after the kids. BUT… Women are hardwired to cheat to. When you look at DNA tests for paternity, about 1 in 6 male partners aren’t the father of “their” children. It’s to a woman’s advantage to get a man to help raise her kids but have sex with a “better man” genetically.
This is all basic biology. I thought the idea of being “civilised” was to rise above our biology. We’re hardwired to kill neighbouring tribes we don’t like but we don’t do that. Oh sorry forgot Iraq….!
I think you’ve made up some scientific figures there.
The only thing I really find bothersome with this is the idea that it should be one sided. If a couple decides they don’t wish to remain monogamous then both partners should have equal rights outside the relationship. Hill seems to be suggesting that it is okay for men to cheat as long as they are honest about it, but not okay for women to cheat ever. What would be wrong with having a marriage where it was agreed that both spouses were allowed to have sex with other people? It’s not everyone’s cup of tea obviously, but seems like a fairer option than this model of “negotiated infidelity”.
presumably it takes two to tango, so if men cheat, women must cheat, or there’ll be some very tired single women out there…
Exactly- if he can cheat, why can’t she? Why would a woman be comforted by the fact that her husband loves her even if he cheats.
Great line -most women opt to cheat because they are busy with toddlers. Grow up girl, not saying it’s right for men or woman, but both sexes cheat. And not all women are home with toddlers- that age only last about 3 years- thank god.
I don’t call it cheating, but I really do agree if the man has an option to have a relationship with another woman then the woman also must have this option to have a relationship with other men.
Note: I say “option”, because it is a choice if you want to have a second partner or not. Relationships must not be equally balanced, just be open to the possibility.
Men cheat as much as women, but with different modalities.
Fidelty and exclusiveness exist only for the man to ensure that he is rearing his own children and not someone else’s.
And also exists because insecure people are afraid that their spouse will find “someone better”.
I agree with her point (if you are honest about what you do it is not cheating nor betryal) with one caveat: if he is allowed, she must be allowed as well.
All in all, I think it makes a far more natural and relaxed approach to a long term relationship and will eventually make it more solid.
True is that it takes a lot of self-confidence from both parts.
A policy of honesty is best. Something along the lines of “tell me if you do sleep with someone else; I don’t want to know who, when, where or why, but I hope you’ll be honest enough to tell me that you did.” There’s a lot of risks if you partner does go off with someone else. (STDs are the least of your worries.) If you at least know, you have forewarning. And it does need to go both ways, definitely. You can’t have one set of rules for you and another for your partner. Deception is a pretty big cause of breakups and divorces – so, remove deception from your relationship and it’s almost guaranteed to improve.
I’m okay with my partner having the odd one-night stand, but that’s mainly because I’m not perfect either – so I’m not going to hold him to a standard I can’t keep to. I’ve not had it happen with my current partner, but my previous partner wasn’t particularly good at fidelity. It’s difficult not to get angry or insecure, and it’s equally hard to explain to everyone around you why you aren’t angry, but it can be done. (Society expects women to be absolutely distraught and furious the second they even suspect infidelity. It’s hard to convince other women that this is not the best way to deal with it.)
I agree that monogamy is hard work, and thanks to the way society expects men to behave, it’s doubly hard for them. But it is doable. (And it is virtually guaranteed if you avoid alcohol and anything else that’s going to send your inhibitions flying out of the window.)
STDs are certainly NOT the least of one’s worries! I’d rather have my heart broken than gonorrhea.
More and more couples just aren’t getting married. In those circumstances, I suppose everything does have to be negotiated. As a divorced woman with a child, I’m pretty glad I had the law behind me to help make sure my child got health insurance and part of her living expenses paid.
I read recently (can’t remember where, sorry) that although some birds stay with their partner for life, the female will mate with another male. Her partner will then happily work with her to raise the resulting chicks, even though they are not his. Presumably, the male will also father chicks by other females. This gives a stable environment to raise the young, while still allowing the partners to “stray”.
I lost the source of the podcast but one anthropolog claimed that it is the subconscious nature of a woman to have a marriage with a nice guy that will be her provider for life while she has sex with a alpha male that has better genes but will not support her for life. One of the arguments is that in case of humans, the moment that a woman is futile is hidden. So the partner cannot know he is the father of someone else since he has no clue if she was futile when he had sex with her.
Also apparently there is also 2 types of orgasm with woman only different in timing of the muscle contractions that pushes out sperm (with her nice husband) or just pushes sperm more inward (with an alpha male).
I lost the reference but it makes sense when I compare with what I see.
“I think that cheating men are normal,” says Hill.
Of course she would think that. Probably every man she has cheated with is a cheating man.
Nope, just statistics.
Reading her article, seems she started this when her previous sugardaddy dumped her and she put out an ad for new sugardaddies.
She has a boyfriend now but the first thing she insisted on was allowing infidelity but she has a lot of rules for her boyfriend.
sounds like a commited relationship is not her style and she assumes everyone is like her
“allowing infidelity”
Allowing “Infidelity” sounds so strange a name.
Also having a lot of rules is not very healthy in a poly-relationship, it gets too complicated fast and the chance being upset by breaking a rule increases fast.. so bigger chance of someone upset more than none upset is increasing.
I lived in Holland for a while and had open relationships. Had girlfriends who were 100% Ok with saying “Not tonight, but here is a few bucks for the red light district”. Their mindset was at least the workers there are clean and tested and I know where he is going.
I now live in Japan and have 3 girlfriends who I see each of them once a month (no time in work-a-holic Japan) which is quite normal here. Some of in relationships and one is not.
Married men and women here cheat/have outside relationships often here. As long as you don’t embarrass your partner in the process it’s Ok.
Hell I was offered by a salaryman here to take his wife out on dates and he would pay me to do it and pay for the date cause he wanted time off to play golf (and perhaps see his mistress as well?).
Maybe I am wrong here but it seems religion may play a role (the whole do not commit adultery thing) at least in Japan where Christianity is not popular and rejected.
I am surprised that Japanese are so open minded. Is that in a high class? Or any class?
A lot of people are making comments about how what a couple does isn’t anyone’s business, no one has a right to judge, and that if both partners are honest it doesn’t harm anyone. But that’s under the assumption that the boundaries for the relationship are set up so that both partners can, and are open about, sleeping with someone else. But this isn’t the type of couple Hill is speaking of, or else there would clearly be no need for her to write what she does. The scenario she has set up is one in which women need to “get over” their jealousy and change how they feel about monogamy, in order to please the man who wants to stray. In this case, a man should simply be single, or date someone who is okay with having multiple partners.
It’s really infuriating to tell a woman she’s essentially wrong for being upset, and encourage her to acquiesce to male desires in this way. It’s centuries-old rhetoric being said in a new, 21st century way, but the underlying implication is the same: what women desire is secondary at best, and they should defer to their better, male superiors.
I mentioned previously that she starts off with so many false, generalized assumptions, so I want to clarify that I don’t think all women necessarily want to be monogamous or all men want to cheat; I’m merely remaining consistent with the scenario she made.
I do agree, that if a couple decides they can see other people and explore their sexuality, it’s no one’s business. They have created a system that works for them, and no one can really interfere with that.
I’m glad someone brought this up. It’s not exactly earth-shattering news, this book, it’s just another author using anecdotal evidence to repeat something we’ve grown to assume. It’s natural for a man to want to put his sperm in everyone he sees, so let’s allow the natural state of humankind to default to males.
I have arguments with my male friend over our differences, whether those differences be natural or socialized gender norms. In my observation and experience, women are taught to suppress their natural expectations in a relationship in order to attract a man. Why don’t I write a book to put men on notice: it’s natural for a woman to want to get married and have babies with you so don’t be put off if she brings it up on the first date. She doesn’t need her time wasted hoping you’re the one, and doesn’t desire to play this little dance of keep her intentions quiet for 3-6 months of her limited fertile years to see how it goes. Part B: if you want a monogamous relationship with your wife, and you want her to want to have sex with you often, her sexual desire goes down if you don’t actively participate in the keeping of the household. The second she has to nag you, she’s not going to want to do it. The second after that, your response should not be to go find someone else who is nicer to you. Men are attracted to boobs and asses, while women are attracted to a stable and helpful partner, and you all get hot sex if you cooperate with each other’s natures and expectations. Women should not have to be quiet in fear of chasing her man to go for other women. Men should be taught to expect and respect the true nature of women, and we have less to nag about if you get it through your skull.
Seriously, are there any books out there who line it out like that so men have no choice but to put up with the nature of females, only that we have to accept their “nature”? I’m generalizing on both halves, but there’s too many women willing to give men what they need and they use that to their advantage with little consideration. They demand a respectful attitude, i.e. if he doesn’t feel like helping, he just won’t, and then if asked, that’s going to chase him away. While some men have good manners, they are not taught that they have to “act like a lady,” they have a lot of leeway being ill-mannered in a way that a woman doesn’t, and consider it acceptable and natural! There’s a lot of work for the woman to just “go with it” from a man that he does not give back, why she is late for everything, how many things she has to do to be as ready to go as a man! The slightest reason, they just cut, they blame their lady for not being hospitable to sex, they need sex though! They had to get it from someone else. While the wife is simply turned off and refuses sex, and gets none. I’m generalizing the married dynamic for people who don’t get to listen to the conversations I have with my friend, it’s not about all marriages, all men, or all women, but “nature” and how adultery tends to arise from even the most loving well-intentioned monogamists.
I think a lot of people are reading this incorrectly. Many people are responding as if she is saying “couples everywhere should consider more open relationship” but she isn’t. She insists that men are born to cheat and that women should just learn to live with that and let him do so, regardless of how it makes you feel because its just his nature and what you deserve for expecting him to stick to his vows or the agreed upon nature of your relationship.
I’m not saying all relationships have to be monogamous but it monogamy is not an unrealistic expectation to place upon a man because plenty of men do just fine. Anyone else who insists it is not in his nature should never enter a relationship under pretenses of monogamy, and should never expect a woman to be OK with this. If he finds one who is, then great, but don’t put that on the rest of us. I would like to live a life with the man I love and not worry about what VD he’s bringing home this week, thank you very much, and I know a lot, if not most, girls are with me.
I should clarify that when I mention men or women I feel the same way for either gender, only she seems to attack the male libido in this article. I feel that faithfulness and unfaithfulness are non-gender specific. Also, I think more people are prone to monogamy then she seems to realize, men and women alike.
Are women as financially needy of a man as they used to be? Perhaps some like that old-fashioned model, it came up not too long ago where some religious leader or just religious guy said something to the effect that women shouldn’t work outside the home, or to limit it, or there’s nothing wrong with staying home with the kids.. doesn’t matter, but I brought up the “mommy wars.” Some women do get themselves in a bind not having work outside the raising of their own children and keeping house, while it is preferable to them as long as they can trust their husbands not to do what comes naturally, in effect. I made an earlier post where women somewhat biologically need a stable man for the household and seek out a father for their children, not just a sexual partner… I have a lot of thoughts on how to approach this.
Men are culturally supposed to be more rational while women emotional. To them, it’s “just sex,” to women, it’s more than that. It’s threatening. In the other direction, a man would not generally tolerate a cheating woman, if this came as naturally to her, as it puts the paternity of the children he’s committed to raising into question. Culturally men appear to have more women to choose from as available sex partners, while women have few “mates” to choose from, but they can obviously have as many sexual partners as there are cheating husbands of other wives, etc. It’s a pact. This woman is saying loosen up, let the man be natural, and this is more rational than weeping over what men consider “just sex.” I think a rational response might also be to take him or leave him the same as he does you, and leave him if he breaks the pact, the same as he would do to you. This again, generalizing like I have been. It hurts, but why should women cut men any slack? Why are we laboring to keep him interested and suppressing feelings of neediness, jealousy, etc. When it’s out in the open, it’s over. Why do we have to put in all of the compromise and men get to eat their cake and have it too?
I tried talking about this with my friend again to bounce ideas off him, but it wasn’t a good day to discuss it. With regard to religious ideals, monogamy seems forced against nature. Religions tend to, at least fundamentally, teach that we are not animals, we’re in the image of god and god-granted “morals” that limit our nature. Monogamy seems very rigid and unrealistic to some people, but that’s why they turn it into a religious ideal, that men pray to god every day to keep from going wild. By contrast, atheists know this stuff ain’t true, we are animals, and there are natural urges that exist from just trying to succeed as a species that were preferential. So is it more rational to accept this, or more rational to learn and grow from this, to suppress nature through rational means? Before we got cut short, we talked about hunger and food and how we’re hardwired to shove food in our face every chance we get. Rationally, we know that food is no longer scarce, also what is in it, how to count calories, and we’re no longer running for our lives or migrating on foot, or for the most part, living a physically strenuous life. We still want to eat a lot, but we are where we are by having the capacity to be rational: we’re able to take note of changes in our environment and limit how much food we eat and adding a regimen of exercise to our desk job days — if we want to.
It’s the same thing with monogamy, it’s a choice to have a healthy relationship by suppressing nature, or as some embrace their nature and go for polyamory. I don’t feel that I’m open to a polyamorous relationship so I would not want a man who does. I don’t know a lot about it, but I don’t think I would like that any more than if someone decided for me that I should be a lesbian. I’m not attracted to women. If a man was my boyfriend and decided he should have two or more women, and I could also have men and/or we would all get along together or separately, I would not take the option and would say he’s not for me the same as I would if a woman pursued a relationship with me. I guess I’m wondering by the clues if more men are simply polyamorous, but haven’t been exposed to it, or are put off by it because it means they have to share their woman with other people who might not be hot chicks. I would liken this sexual emerging as someone not wanting to say they are gay and going through with a marriage with someone of the opposite sex, only to have to sneak around. Maybe biologically most men would rather have sex with a lot of different women if they could, and have to get married because that’s what we do here. Women may be polyamorous, but something tells me she wouldn’t have too difficult a time making that happen for her as a man might to find a woman who is into it. A woman feeling very much monogamous such as myself doesn’t feel right tying a man down at all if he is prone to cheat or is polyamorous, whatever the difference might be, I think it is respect to come forth with that information before it goes too far. Also with my monogamy and fidelity, I expect monogamy, not excuses why a man can’t keep his pants on. See how that goes?
Where did the idea for monogamy come from? I do not have a lot of knowledge of this kind of history, but it’s been my impression that marriages were once more economical relationships than romantic, I guess in shorthand. Polygamy was a more popular model, for a man to afford more than one wife, I don’t know how their emotions sat with that one, but it was the going thing, and people do that or be alone, I guess. It’s obvious monogamy is cheaper than having several wives, but I don’t know if most people’s attitudes toward it are only cultural. Some cultures eat dogs, most Americans tend to think that’s pretty awful because dogs are our friends, but we don’t mind eating other animals. I guess I am wondering how much of what “man’s nature” is involved in cheating on a monogamous relationship, or why people, including myself, take it very seriously and expect better behavior. The lady’s photograph is annoying me also, that smug look. She wrote a book about something nobody’s surprised to hear, she slept with some married men, and that smile on her face makes me want to smack it off her. I guess that’s my nature. I also kind of think she knows that, it’s a sickening “someone just like me wants to sleep with your husband… please let him off his leash tonight?” look, it’s very predatory and not illustrating an intelligent point.
In a study on breast cancer a few years ago, a large sample of women were tested for genetic predisposition to the condition – as were all of their parents (both of them). In around twenty percent of the sample (this is from memory, so I’ll accept correction on the exact number), it was discovered that the “father” could not possibly be the father of the woman concerned – so twenty percent of those women must have cheated on their husbands at least once. Now consider this: If you were a cheating wife, wouldn’t you be careful to try and avoid an extra-marital pregnancy? Consider also that 4/5ths of pregnancies end in natural abortion without the mother ever being aware they were carrying a zygote. So how many of those women do you think had cheated at some point or other? I’d guess the vast majority – and it was a random sample.
And men are hard-wired to cheat? Sexual impulse is based in an evolved drive to propogate ones genes, i.e. to have children. In my experience, that drive is much, much stronger in women. Perhaps they’re just better at keeping their mouths shut about it rather than bragging to their friends?
Hey Custador, where do you get all this info? Could you give me any sources for things like
“4/5ths of pregnancies end in natural abortion”?
It would be really useful to me in arguing with certain people I know (who think abortion is identical to murder). I know I could just do a search to find out if that itself it true or not, but are there any outstanding sources for information on this?
Technically “abortion” is a medical term which means when pregnancy spontaneously ends for no apparent reason. When lay-people say “abortion”, they actually mean “termination of pregnancy”. If you tell a midwife a woman has had an abortion, she’ll assume you mean a miscarriage. I will find you a source and get back to you, though.
In my discussion with my friend about this last night, we were talking about the cheating wife baby daddy thing. As it happens, women’s sexual drive increases around the time of ovulation. Their husbands or partners (supposing married and ostensibly monogamous relationships) are horny every day, so let’s suppose they have sex a decent amount. It’s not that she’s not interested the rest of the month, but can be persuaded, has a normal interest.
I would like maybe someone, if this sounds familiar, to find a good article about it because this is all “my friend said”. The kicker here is that when women are at ovulation, their drive becomes less choosy, somewhat like a man’s is ordinarily. Biologically, men are looking at appearances, who can bear children, signs of fertility and sex. Women tend to look for traits in a man who is dedicated to them, to the upkeep of a household and a family, and that’s who tends to marry, so this is the profile of the husband. It’s the differing biology of males and females and how often they can each reproduce. When they are more likely to become pregnant, they are also more likely to cheat, seeking out or being easily persuaded by a man who isn’t looking for a relationship (she already has one in this scenario and he just doesn’t care). She doesn’t pick out the sexy man for a husband, or that is low on her list of things she cares about, but when the drive is higher, she “can’t help herself” either to be vulnerable to signs of fertility.
At least that’s where you get so many children who have a different father than they were brought up to believe, according to my friend and some stuff he’s read about it.
Women, are they more hard-wired to care for children? In a perfectly biological world, men want children just as much as women do, but they are biologically distanced from its reality. They don’t have to stick around, they can make 10 or 12 babies a day if they get or take permission to. I guess there is that factor in a small village, eventually all the women will be pregnant at once, but men continue to make sperm. In the real world, men don’t tend to want to be responsible for making children they don’t want to take care of. Men make the advance and the woman decides if she will or won’t, so men have that reality to control them. I’m generalizing based on biological tendencies in our culture, not that women never make the advance (and would a guy even turn her down?). This is why women start hating men, at least as far as I can see. They might not want a baby, but they don’t understand why men don’t have the courtesy to call. Women supposedly have the upper hand to decide whether any particular man gets to have sex, and that was a grand favor to you on her part, she didn’t have to say yes, you know, and you don’t like her and won’t call?
Women tend to want babies at least culturally more than men because it’s part of our bodies, we are obligated to stay with it, and want a man who also wants to stay with it, not leave us both. We’re also socialized with dolls and stuff, and infantilized ourselves. If women didn’t have a sex drive at all, I don’t think men would ever get to have any. At least historically before women were understood to have a sex drive, she was put into the role of wanting to be a mother at least, and to put up with her husband’s urges the best she could, expected to be a virgin, etc. Prostitution also provides services because why not profit off men’s needs? It is not called “the world’s oldest profession for no reason.
In short form: men are biologically driven perhaps to have as many sexual partners as they are capable of, not really considering consciously it tends to result in making babies, while women have to be discriminating who gets to impregnate her, and to want babies because biologically, she gets stuck taking care of them.
Custador – Are you implying that for every woman who has been pregnant 5 times, she has miscarried 4 o f those times? wtf. So if Mrs. Duggar has had 20 children, then on average, she has had 16 miscarriages?
“miscarriage” is the wrong word. I believe that in most cases, natural abortions take place before the mother even realizes she’s pregnant. The embryo is not developing properly, and so gets flushed from the body.
Yep. It manifests as a heavy period.
Math fail. If she’s had 20 children, she’ll have been unknowingly pregnant another 80 times – unless she just happens to be freakishly fertile and an exceptionally good genetic match for her husband.
The numbers I can find on the net estimate about 50% of pregnancies end in natural abortions. It usually happens within a week or so of conception, I think.
To me, it seems like a very serious problem to Catholics and other Christians who maintain the soul is created at conception, that God would allow about half of all souls to be spontaneously aborted by the woman’s body. But I’m sure there are theological answers to that. I’m guessing it’s due to our sinful behavior somehow. It always is. Never mind that the embryos/souls in question are innocent of anything.
I’d think that both sexes are inclined to cheat roughly equally. (Naively) Biologically, a man’s priority is to spread his genetic material as much as possible (while obviously leads to “cheating”), while a women’s priority is to net the best mate… AND get pregnant. So she wants to have sex with the best mate… first… then work her way down the list trying to get pregnant.
Then again, there are other survival factors (social behaviors) and not everyone cheats so this is more armchair biological anthropology on my part.
You should read “Sex at Dawn The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality” it challenges the standard scientific narrative of the game theory of monogamy and puts forth a solid argument for the promiscuity of our ancestors.
I am in the process of reading it. Wonderful book.
Over the years, starting in the seventies I was involved in a number of relationships where varying degrees of infidelity were mutually agreed upon. This ranged from couples swinging, to party swinging to later on an agreement that as long as both were discreet and careful it was ok. I did not notice that my drive for others was any greater than my female partners, we all seemed pretty well matched. I don’t find that there is a huge difference between men and women. There are men who are readily adapted to monogamy and those who aren’t and the same is true for women. If this weren’t true, who would we polyamorous be sleeping with if heterosexual?
I am married to a sweet lady who physically cannot have sex. By agreement I have had sexual relationships outside the our marriage. These relationships led to me picking a single sex partner. I have two women in my life my wife and my sex partner. All our needs are being met and this agreement has saved my marriage. My wife and I enjoy a wonderful tender relationship where there is no resentment or guilt about the lack of sex. My wife is extremely outspoken and has made it clear she would change nothing.
The key phrase in all of that is ‘mutual agreement.’
The only facts I can offer are these:
“Negotiated infidelity” is not infidelity. “Permission to cheat” means it’s not cheating. You can’t break the rules unless they exist in the first place.
And men aren’t “hard-wired” to do anything. Ants are hard-wired. Migratory birds are hard-wired. Humans are soft-wired to want a lot of things, but we have the ability to act on them or not. Of course, some of us will find our urges harder to resist than others.
Yes. Which is why I find all these arguments from the poly amorous folks odd. No one is saying that having multiple sexual partners is wrong. Lying about it is wrong.
The 2 basic key elements in polyamory of being wrong is lying about it and starting a relationship /sex with someone without the consent of “all” your other partners first.
I will never start another relationship or have sex with someone else before I have talked to my other partners first and they feel ok with it. Even though they have given me carte Blanche in this.
Also an additional partner is only started when I have a good relationship where we talk openly. If the existing relationship has problems then we fix those issues first before we add another partner. Those polyamory people that start a second relationship because they have problems with their partner and hope this will resolve it, will soon discover that it blows up all relationships.
At this moment, my partner has Carte Blanche from me, as long as she makes it safe, and avoid one male figure which is a con artist. I will not stop her from starting with this Mr X, but then I stop my relationship with her. It is only one Mr X restriction.
That’s basic in any good relationship. I think within polyamory, you get more acceptance that partners will find other people attractive, so asking permission first will not be as awkward, but you also get the “people are people” thing, where not everyone’s going to be a healthy and honest person. I mean, do you ever get someone in your group who doesn’t get kicked out for not following the rules? In monogamy, cheating or lying is not always a deal-breaker. If the person you are with matters and can be forgiven, or as this author likes, it happens, just go with it and give permission in fact, people do not always break up after a case of infidelity or even a pattern of it. I guess I wonder if polyamorous people are more on a case-by-case basis or if it’s more a case of we’re already polyamorous, what’s to lie about?
Polyamorous people is a word for a very big variety of people but they all have love in common the possibility of multiple partners and honesty and tons of communication. Yes it is the same basics like a very good monogamous relationship.
Polyamory is like monogamy with the difference that you might have 2 monogamous relationship at the same time. Polyamory does not require a threesome. Some metamours (partners of partners) sometimes do not meet each other but they do know of each others existence.
Also in polyamory you need to have equal attention and time with each of the partners. My ex-second partner only came 1 day a week but that was enough for her.
My main beef with this book is the inherent sexism used: men want to cheat so women should be nice and accept it. Quite different from a mutually accepted polyamory, when all parties start from a point of non-monogamy.
This strikes a very deep nerve in a lot of relationships. A lot of men do not want to “cheat” on their wives. A lot of women do not want to “cheat” on their husbands. And men or women are not hardwired to fail.
A more fundamental issue raised here is the limitations that relationships have and what happens when those limitations prevent the limited partner from fulfilling the other party and the other person is left unfulfilled. If one’s wife (or husband) becomes uninterested, physically distant in his or her spouse, the spouse that is not getting the attention has needs that are unmet. So how should those needs be met? If the unfulfilled spouse finds someone else to pay him or her some attention, the distant spouse is not being “cheated” or losing out of anything that he or she wants. If the unfulfilled spouse remains unfulfilled, is suffering quietly a better option. This “negotiated” infidelity is better understood as one way of dealing with the frailty and limitations of human relationships. Stereotyping men and women is not helpful or constructive.
While I agree with many of you that the tone of the CNN article (haven’t read the book) is harsh and stereotypical hype, it has inspired conversation between my husband and I. I do not believe people are hard-wired to do anything, but I do believe circumstances change. The relationship needs to be able to evolve with it. I have every intention of growing old with my spouse and he does with me too – but we have physical and emotional needs that are not being met currently and opening the relationship up to explore avenues previously shut off to us (mostly due to social norms) is liberating and has added excitement back to a stale marriage. For us, communication is key to negotiated infidelity. I believe that was the biggest point she made – talk about what works for you as a couple and then keep talking about it. It will evolve and once you are not on the same page, you have a decision to make. With divorce over 50% – it seems to me traditional marriage isn’t working for a large number of people. Why not try something innovative?
Me an my wife have negotiated infidelity. Meaning she can be with other guys as long as she doesn’t hide anything about it. I’m still negotiating my share of the deal…