This is the Grand Prize Winner of the Project Reason video contest
When this was posted over at Jesus Needs New PR, and it started some people arguing about the facts. Problem is, it doesn’t have many facts. The take away message is that lots of people give bunches of money to churches, and we have no way to track that or hold the churches accountable, and perhaps we should find another way.
Problem is:
1. Most Christians would argue that a church is a worthy cause in itself, and thus should be supported.
2. The worst offenders are probably the prosperity gospel crowd, and their members give in the hopes of getting. The fact that their pastor is enjoying a lavish lifestyle is just proof that God will favor those who “plant a seed.”
3. Yoga? wtf?
These ”LOW-LIFE” Bastard rip-off artists should be forced to kneel in prison for continuous planting of the seed in their rectoms…………..
I can see why it won. This is one of the areas I usually go to when I question christians about how they aren’t giving to a charity when giving to a church. Some but not many have any idea of how little they give actually goes to help the community they claim they are helping. I think they do the same as many people do and that is they assume those in leadership of churches are going to want to do for the communities what they want to do. I really do believe most christians want to help those in need, it is just a small number that only cares about themselves before others.
Man, I’d give 10% of my income to give that guy a haircut…
The basis of business taxation is profit and loss. Where there is net profit, there must be taxation. Calling your business a religion should not excuse it from taxation – in fact, I think it’s probably unconstitutional both that a law exists which excuses churches from taxation and that churches receive government grants. I think in a few years that law can be challenged in the courts – and then the US will see a lot of people migrate to the Bahamas, a lot of suddenly bankrupt megachurches and the extinction of $cientology.
If the church pays taxes or not should not be a free gift to churches, but they should be registered as any other charity. If you make profits from selling BS, and X% is used for business expenses and Y% is used for your charity work, then the rest should be taxed just like any other business or anyone else. No special taxes but then no special treatment.
And considering how the republicans give huge tax breaks to business the churches will not pay that much if anything.
Not for profit companies aren’t taxed in the US. That’s not a policy unique to religious organizations.
The problem with any corporate body is that it’s distinct legally from its directors and shareholders; a lot of the time a business is in every regard a sole-proprietorship or a partnership except in the eyes of the law. The reason that churches should have to file returns whether they’re not-for-profit or otherwise is in order to prevent them from paying the living expenses of their pastors and calling it business expenditure – it’s not business expenditure, it’s consideration for services rendered and (in the UK and Commonwealth, and I’m pretty sure in the US) is therefore subject to income tax from the recipient. How many megachurch preachers do you think declare their McMansions or their private jets? I doubt any do.
I guarantee those folks are watched by the IRS. Joel Osteen had better pay his taxes or he’ll end up in the real Hell– IRS court.
Given the incredible run-around that the cult of $cientology has given them, I wonder if the IRS aren’t once-bitten, twice-shy.
These religious organizations are not, in general, non-profit.
Also, there is the issue that religion is given an explicit tax exemption in 501(c)3, a point which I think merits at least some discussion.
But surely those big mega churches where the pastors make a fair buck are making a profit or should count as making a profit?
Some museums make a fair bit of money as well (not the ones I work at, natch).
In theory, a Not For Profit companies return some service to the community – education, aid for the needy, art and culture, etc. – so the government doesn’t tax them. It doesn’t mean they aren’t turning a profit, it’s just that profit isn’t supposed to be the point of their existence.
Of course, just because they aren’t taxed doesn’t mean they aren’t tracked. The government has a legitimate interest in ensuring that they are actually performing the service they claim to provide. Here in NY, museums fill out Form 990 at tax time, and are monitored by a wing of the Board of Regents. The tax forms are considered public domain, and there are services like Guidestar that make them publicly available.
I could wish that Churches feel under even a fraction of that scrutiny.
So they aren’t under that kind of scrutiny at all? That’s kind of scary.
They’re under God’s scrutiny. He makes sure they do what they should do.(/sarcasm)
Yoga?
I guess Yoga is sort of a charity. In a way.
OK, not really.
Yeah, that was a minor WTF moment for me. Also, I had a quibble with the assumption that churches are taking the money from government funded faith-based initiatives (which itself was another WTF moment when GWB proposed it) and using it to fund lavish lifestyles–is there any data to support this kind of assertion?
Hello, I am a Christian and believe churches should not be 501 c 3. We don’t need the governments help.
I believe in tithing 10% and giving an offering. I also volunteer time and give to other charities.
I feel it is fair to understand that churches help a lot of people in local communities and abroad.
Church people are a lot of times the first ones in an the last ones to leave a disaster here and in other countries.
I think some churches focus too much on money and I am critical of them. I think when you have a religion with millions of believers there are always gonna be people in it for the cash.
I think in fairness to anyone or anything, you should show the good they do as well. Not all churches are money hungry just like not all mosques are blood thirsty extremists.
We aren’t perfect but neither are atheists.
Thanks for letting me comment.
Micthell, many atheists are also helping people locally and abroad. And their are also there first and last when disaster happens. And unlike the church, these people have no intention to try to convert people that are in distress and helpless.
I just did a quick calculation, I use 8% of my money for people in the last need and I am an atheist. And I do know that that money is being used very efficiently for those people. My parents are also involved to gather and drive 2000 km one way with clothing and second hand material in convoy with many other people to give it to the poor. There is no religion whatsoever involved. They spend their own money for that 4000 km drive, none of this gets paid.
I can tell you many more stories about atheists helping people because I know many of those. A lot of them are for example in the Red Cross too.
Olaf, I never said atheists don’t help or are not charitable. Wasn’t even thinking it.
I was just suggesting that it isn’t fair to only see the negative of a group of people.
I don’t judge atheists by their bad apples.
I rarely see an article, blog or tv story dedicated to the GOOD Christians do. It is only the bad. Hardly fair.
And the Christians helping in disasters are not just over there converting. Most of the time they don’t have time to do that. They are serving meals, providing medical aid, rebuilding homes, etc, etc. They WILL provide counselling for stress, grief and all that but hardly an altar call.
It would be refreshing to see someone do a real involved story on the good things do for a change. That is all.
I sadly lost a lot of respect for Red Cross having worked “side by side” with them with the Salvation Army. During a flood in ND they seemed more interested in having their vehicles in good camera view and making sure national news folks noticed them.
The S Army in that town made about $30,000 more than the previous year in their Christmas buckets. I know because I ran the kettle campaign. I also rang bells and heard a lot of complaints about the Red Cross’s response to flood while doing it.
Anyway, I am not knocking the whole Red Cross.
I have to get ready for church but will check back later. Have a great day!
I do agree with you that more attention needs to be paid to all the good done by people no matter what beliefs they have. I’m not sure which news channel you watch but I do know most I see or read cover when any christian group goes to some disaster area but you seldom hear how atheist are there also.
I rarely see Christian groups mentioned. The thing is, Christians are not supposed to tell people when they do good. So people on the outside don’t always know what the church is up to.
Right (poster below) it is not about atheism vs Christianity, not at all.
I watch MSNBC and Fox. Mainly MSNBC even though I agree with Fox more. I believe that a person should judge his own house first. So if my news station, my president, or my church, business, friends, etc are behaving badly. I am disappointed and let it be known. For example, I feel that Fox represents politics that are more in line with mine. But because I feel they should know better, I have a hard time watching when they are biased. I feel that MSNBC is most biased on tv but I cannot stand it when my own kind fail me.
I believe you don’t see the special coverage on atheists because a lot of the news people share atheist/agnostic views but definitely anti-Christian.
Look, I just think there is a double standard the news. Media will show the great things about Islam, call you a bigot, hater, ignorant for linking them to terrorists but they will go out of their way to bash Christians.
If someone points out the bad in Planned Parenthood the media will defend them. but if you point out the bad in Christianity, the media will hand you a microscope.
The point of the video is to cut out the middle man by giving directly. If you give to a church, some will go to worthy causes, but not all. It really is not really an atheism issue.
Yes but that is like saying don’t give to schools, instead give to the people who make the books. Church is a worthy cause. Because of what they offer the people who attend AND because they help those who don’t.
Andrew Wommack’s ministry will give you the material (books, dvds, etc) for free. They only suggest a donation. You are not required.
If it were ministry, I would not charge or suggest. But that is me.
All I was saying is that if you look hard enough for negative you will find it. But you shouldn’t blind your eyes to the good.
Not exactly.
In the case of churches, many of them have a history of confusing “feeding the hungry” with “preaching to the hungry”. Cutting out the middleman is a wise move when your middleman is making uncharitable use of your charitable donations.
“Many of them…” How many? Can you put a percentage on it? How many mega-mosques preach violence to the infidel?
“Cutting out the middleman is a wise move when your middleman is making uncharitable use of your charitable donations.”
Of course, isn’t that good advice across the board? Why focus on churches?
How much of the Haiti money or aid to New orleans is now dirty as Bourbon Street after Mardi Gras?
I used to work at a bank and used to help the pastor of the rather large church I had attended in the past (about 3k members). Dude had 70k in one acct, 30k in three others, and 20k in another one. And those were his personal accounts. Not to mention the church;’s business account.
What the author of this video doesn’t understand is that the Tithe of the believer is not at his or her discretion to redirect to a “worthy” cause. God gave specific instructions in the book of Malachi as to where He wants His tithe to go. We are to bring the tithe to the Storehouse, which for us today is indeed the church; not where we feet it could be beneficial. Worthy and good causes is where we do have discretion to give offerings and gifts above the tithe; from our 90%. The book of Proverbs advises us that tithing is a way we honer the Lord with our increase/income; God’s 10%. For us to do anything other than what He commanded us is stealing from God, not honoring Him, and directly disobeying his command; which quit frankly is sin,
Gee wiz… the rate of economic inflation since the time of the proverbs written and interpreted.. should really be a consideration. 10% percent of american minimum wages, after taxes, 32 hours a week or less, is a lot of money to a poor person. Let’s just load on some more mentally expensive guilt about not being able to “pay” the way into heaven and forgiveness… Jesus would be ashamed !!