So, I just got up to this news at 5AM and I’m a few hours ahead of the US; I’m guessing that the US media is swamped with this. I’ll try to follow this up with a meatier obituary later (unless Daniel or Vorjack want to do it, I’m doing a 12.5 hour shift in the emergency unit today so bear with me), but in the meantime let’s throw this one open for discussion:
Was the media portrayal of OBL justified?
Is it good that he’s dead?
Are you worried about reprisal attacks?
Do you think that the death of Al Qaida’s spiritual leader heralds a downturn in violence?
What does this mean for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Does it make you worry any more for friends and family serving overseas?
…And most important of all: Do the soldiers that got him get the $25,000,000 bounty?
1. Don’t care
2. Absolutely
3. Yes
4. No
5. As Obama
6. Yes
7. Yes…25k for EACH one involved
Haha, the reward was $25 M, and I assume they will not get it, seeing as they were part of the U.S. military.
I’ve helped send off and welcome home my share of friends in the armed forces over the last decade, and seeing the shit-disturber who made it necessary for them to put their lives on the line dead gives me a great deal of satisfaction.
Let’s open up another avenue of discussion.
What do you think about a United States president ordering the assassination of someone in a foreign country?
I think that Obama’s orders are justifiable because Bin Laden was responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people and probably was never going to allow himself to be captured. However, I couldn’t say what the dividing line is between an “ok” and “not ok” assassination.
Osama bin Laden may not have been behind the terrorist attacks at all.
Well he was “responsible”, but in the same way that a cheerleader or a sport’s fan is responsible for his team’s victory. He isn’t really physically the reason for their behaviour nor is he calling the shots. He is just a figurehead.
By that logic, you could say that no Al Qaida leader is responsible for any terrorist attacks, for which he wasn’t personally present. Cells are loosely formed and encouraged to act autonomously. But did Osama and his cronies, inspire terrorism, fan the flames of violence, issue the fatwa’s that gave religious authority to attacks, and provide arms and supplies whenever possible?
Absolutely!
Osama cannot issue a Fatwa. He is not an Imam. Important thing there!
By that logic we should shove Ann Coulter in a prison cell for encouraging the hate crimes on muslims and encouraging the behaviour of the State of Israel.
Osama isn’t seen as a terrorist by the middle east because to them he is “sticking it to the man”. He is their Che Guevara except unlikely to end up on a shirt.
And that is EXACTLY why moderate Islam has become irrelevant in the modern world. They have let the fundamentalists co-opt the conversation and agenda. If mainstream Islam regards Bin Laden as their "Che Guevara", then they are not worthy of respect in the developed world, as much as they crave it. Che Guevara, to my knowledge, never regarded the murder and mutilation of innocent children and women as part of his cause or collateral in his cause, and never strapped bombs to 12 yr old girls so he could murder hundreds of people.
I repeat, your veiled defense of Bin Laden is hugely offensive, and I have no respect for you any more.
IIRC Che was well known as a torturer and executioner who took special pains to deal with women and children himself instead of getting others to do it. Romanticised Western history = very often innacurate.
Avicenna, please support your claim that Bin Laden was “just a figurehead”. All the evidence I’ve ever read or heard puts him as one of the two figures in conceiving the 9/11 and directing it’s preparation.
Your claim that he is the Islamic equivalent Ann Coulter is offensive and makes excuses for Bin Laden. I find your argument extremely weak and lacking even the smallest amount of evidence.
I’m curious what evidence you have read or heard on this subject? I’ve been following it closely for a while and last time I checked, none of that evidence had been made public.
Even the 9/11 Commission Report has Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as the two figures conceiving 9/11 and directing it’s preparation, and puts bin Laden’s involvement somewhere between vague approval and fundraising.
“the shit-disturber who made it necessary for them to put their lives on the line dead”
You mean George W. Bush?
Or the war profiteers that made a ludicrous amount of money out of the two wars?
I would group in Rumsfeld and Cheney with Bush. There is a lot of blame to go around, but without the excuse of reprisal for a terrorist attack on American soil/the interests of national security we can never be certain that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq would have ever occurred.
True.
I have generally been of the opinion that killing through inaction is just as bad than killing through action (if not worse, as it can be done without remorse). As such, I would say that any assassination that saves more lives than it costs is an “ok” assassination. So if it prevented another attack, then the assassination of OBL is okay, as well as any other world leader if their end would save lives.
Whomever was the informant was got paid,not the service members. On the others I agree with Sam. Also about time….
To Do List:
-use his head in the mortar for whatever is rebuilt where the twin towers were
-place a clown head on his shoulders
-preserve him in a national monument that just so happens to be a toilet that people can pay $5 to defecate on -> balance the budget
Was the media portrayal of OBL justified?
It wasn’t fair, but it was justified. When you plan and commission the mass murder of thousands of innocents you lose the right to a balanced portrayal of what made you into that sort of monster.
Is it good that he’s dead?
Absolutely.
Are you worried about reprisal attacks?
Not even a little.
Do you think that the death of Al Qaida’s spiritual leader heralds a downturn in violence?
I certainly hope so, but I doubt it. Al Qaida, though still good at grabbing headlines, has become increasingly irrelevant over the last half decade as more and more of the poor citizens that they use as their base realize that many of their problems stem from within their own borders not in evil empires abroad.
What does this mean for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Excellent question. I doubt much.
Does it make you worry any more for friends and family serving overseas?
I’m fortunate I have neither friends nor family serving overseas (bit of a relative term there, as I’m overseas, though not serving anything other than a drink now and again). I think though that while the initial rage and chaos from his death might cause his followers to react, largely I think the upper echelon of Al Qaida will be too busy trying to fill the leadership vacuum while also trying to come up with creative spin on the news to help quell dissension in the lower ranks.
‘When you plan and commission the mass murder of thousands of innocents you lose the right to a balanced portrayal of what made you into that sort of monster’.
Well said.
‘When you plan and commission the mass murder of thousands of innocents you lose the right to a balanced portrayal of what made you into that sort of monster’.
Except, there’s no proof of that.
OBL initially denied anything to do with the attacks, he just said he was happy about it.
The Taliban offered to give him to the US if the US had proof that he was behind the attack.
But this was 2002… The past got erased by the loudmouth of US TVs….
And of course this was just a single operation to get OBL and there is nothing else planned for any of the other top level members, so they can all relax now. No, it’s true, there is no plans to do anything to the rest of you, so you can all relax, nothing to worry about.No that is just the sunlight reflecting of a empty tin on that hill…..
Yes, Bin Laden was a bad man who killed a lot of innocent people, but I think it’s very hypocritical of the west (UK and US especially) to be so angry at him. It’s not a secret or conspiracy theory that the armed forces have been in middle east countries for the past hundred years, controlling the governments and making sure that most of the oil and associated profits makes it to the west. The US trained the Taliban and put them in charge in the first place, as they did every time there was an uprising. Once they get in, they’re expected to behave, like Gaddafi was doing, until recently. The murder and oppression of innocent people gets ignored as long the money flows in the right direction.
This is why people are against the war, because it is not the war that should be fought. The moral thing to do would be to remove dictators, torturers and killers from power and grant freedom to those in that country. Not to crush other nations for the western freedom to buy cheap oil.
Call me cynical but i think that this was timed to coincide with the assassination of Colonel Gaddafi (which failed and resulted in the death of his family members) in order to further justify the taking control of his country’s oil supply. They had Bin Laden in their sights and could have assassinated him any time.
i think there will be reprisals. i think he was actually a burden to Al Qaida. I think the World is better off without him though.
Now sit back and let the DANCE MACABRE of morbid gloating commence.
“They had Bin Laden in their sights and could have assassinated him any time.”
… and you know this how?
Leakage though the tin foil from the Black Choppers?
It just amazes me how people can throw around such statements without even thinking about what they are saying are having anything to remotely back it up. The logic seems to be that goverments get up to “things” which they don’t tell us about so you’ve got to take any old crap I pull out of my arse seriously.
dont tell me you don’t believe that “NATO” were after Gaddafi. i suppose the analogy with your arse (and what comes out of it )is adequate since thats what Sky and BBC often produce
You said Bin Laden in their sights and choose not to kill him not Gaddafi … just what sort of muppet are you?
Muppet? like Kermit or Miss Piggy are you for real or just a bit peeved off at reality? Jabster the BBC reported that the US Army gave a detailed briefing of events. That a Bin Laden courier was identified and traced back to that compound. That all started 4 years ago. as for Libya, Nato fired missiles into a building that housed Gaddafi. no doubt his well being was carefully considered and no doubt the mission was either approved or agreed by Obama. I dont like Gaddafi i didnt like Bin Laden. Yeah its easy to put 2 and 2 together and get 5. But its also easy if you are human and have a brain to see through the spin. the fact that you resort to petty insults suggests to be that you are not serious about this topic. So I wont be replying to any of your asinine comments again.
A Bin Laden courier … I thought you said that they knew Bin Laden was there for the last four years but choose only to kill him now?
So you’re admitting you’re basically talking crap then – good to hear it.
“Nato fired missiles into a building that housed Gaddafi. no doubt his well being was carefully considered.”
Executive Order 11905 (signed by Gerald Ford in 1976) explicitly prohibits any employee of the United States government from engaging in “political assassination”, hence all the talk from Obama about how we’re not trying to kill Gaddafi, we’re just bombing the f*ck out of everything near him in the hopes of accidentally killing him.
Ford didn’t sign anything protecting random civilians or jihadists without state backing. But foreign leaders (and this isn’t to say we never assassinate foreign leaders) can’t be officially assassinated by the U.S. government without that government making some major legal rearrangements beforehand.
Or just getting the Brits to do it, since we have no such legal prohibitions.
from the BBC and SKY news reports. they had that compound under surveillance for 4 years.
So what you’re arguing is that both the Bush and the Obama administrations could’ve taken out bin Laden years ago, but they decided they didn’t want to since they saw no advantage to it? Yeah, sounds plausible.
Why of course – why on earth would you think that killing him before the last election could have in anyway been advantageous. Surely that would have only have been to Obama’s advantage?
It isn’t so much that there would be “no advantage” to killing him as that there would be a specific advantage to keeping him alive.
Nah, the US govmt. doesn’t need a specific guy to justify its never-ending war on terror. Another guy (Ayman al-Zawahiri?) will simply take Osama’s place in al-Queda and thus become the symbolic figurehead of the need for American military interventions and gradual erosion of their own civil rights.
Wait, first you said that BBC and Sky pulled stuff out of their asses and then you cited them as a source?
@Darwin
Just your average tin foil hat idiot – BBC agrees with me then the reports are right; BBC disagrees with me then they’re part of the secret plot!
BBC is obviously employing a double-bluff reverse psychology trick by occasionally reporting the truth. But smart people like fearglic can tell the difference between the true and the false news.
Tri I sincerely hope im not the only smart person who can tell the difference between the truth, spin and sheer lies. Its a sad world that many people dont see this. its not a ” double-bluff psychology trick” (not this time anyway) your sarcasm suggests that you would believe anything.
No, actually my sarcasm suggests that I’m immensely critical of assertions that conspiracy nuts uncritically thow around.
Why is it that whenever someone criticizes people like you their standard response is “you’d believe anything”, as if a failure to be believe you means people will uncritically accept anything?
More specifically, it seems pretty obvious to me that the goal of NATO’s bombing in Libya was to kill Gadaffi regardless of their protestations to the contrary. But your standard nutty media conspiracy theory doesn’t follow from that. Neither does your nutty “oh, the president could’ve taken out Osama years ago” assertion.
“… your sarcasm suggests that you would believe anything.”
Well obviously not as he thinks you’re speaking crap … do you even think about what you post before replying?
yes of course Darwin. thats exactly what i said. and yes The BBC and Sky do often report the truth. And again with the insults Jabster “tin foil hats” why are you so upset? have you still got yours around your head? Wise up man.
When you say wise up do you mean spout bull shit which you can’t back up as I thought they were somewhat different concepts?
Back up your claims or fuck off.
… and so it reported then knew Bin Laden was at this compound for 4 years did it – a simple yes or no will suffice. Really just how shit can one person post in a vain attempt to defend thier position?
Well, fearglic, it’s not like our government would lie to us. Don’t apologize.
I am slightly worried about the message this may send to the Islamic world. Before his death, Osama bin Laden was the “boogey man” and the scapegoat for any and all things that represented a foreign threat to the US. Now he is officially a martyr. I hope this doesn’t empower and provoke more people to join his cause.
That being said, the war is over, right?
If he’s really dead, why won’t they release his birth certificate?
I bet he wasn’t even born in Saudi Arabia.
Was the media portrayal of OBL justified? don’t know or care
Is it good that he’s dead? yes
Are you worried about reprisal attacks? If there’s reprisal for some Florida idiot burning a Koran on YouTube, there will probably be some for this too.
Do you think that the death of Al Qaida’s spiritual leader heralds a downturn in violence? no
What does this mean for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? too soon to tell
Does it make you worry any more for friends and family serving overseas? I’m always concerned for them, regardless. Unless they have a nice post in Guam, then I’m kinda jealous.
…And most important of all: Do the soldiers that got him get the $25,000,000 bounty?
yes. if there’s a bounty, hand it over.
I don’t see this as anything that will change much. We will still have troops in nations that we don’t need them in and the so called war on terror will continue. I figure this will be a tool to some within politics to show how it was Obama that finally got him and that the Republicans were never able to do the job.
I am not generally a proponent of capital punishment or “eye for and eye” justice. As someone who watched the horror of 9/11 live and in person in NYC – including hours of wondering if my father made it out of path station under the WTC in time – I have to be honest and say I was happy to hear this news last night. Planning attacks that result in the death of thousands of innocent people has consequences. Those consequences came home to roost yesterday.
I do think this is an appropriate time to reflect on whether there are people in Iraq right now who would be equally justified in feeling joy over the death of one of our leaders.
Yes.
Yes, but I would have like it better if he had been captured alive.
No. Attacks would have come anyway.
No.
No effect
No.
OK folks I humbly apologise for all my postings regarding this topic. I am not a conspiracy theorist. I dislike them entirely. I admit I do come up with some theories of my own whilst not being in the know about the actual events (is free thought not tolerated?). I did start with the disclaimer about cynicism. James G I didnt make any claims other than what was reported. I wont “fuck off”.
Jabster sorry if what I said upset you and Trj too. Im sorry for riling you.
It was a nutty theory i accept and I entirely withdraw it. Apologies to all on this site.
Free thought is fine, but disclaiming something as if it’s fact when it’s a personal theory you can’t back up is going to earn you some snark around here. Just saying.
Well played sir …
Honestly you didn’t upset me – I was mocking you, which as you’ve now apologised I feel I little embrassed by!
As to the question of free thought – yes of course it’s allowed, so saying they’re targeting Gadaffi – that’s not a problem as it would seem probably that they are; asking how this compound could have existed for four years – again not a problem but we have to recognise that a) we don’t know the full story and b) let’s not pretend the we’re better at understanding how to run intelligence operations than those that actually do it for a living – contrary to popular belief goverments are not staffed by complete idiots!
The only problem I have with conspiracy theories is that they make it so much easier to dismiss the whole idea of any accusations of the entire truth being withheld – it’s so much easier to point at the crack pots and say you don’t believe that do you?
Always believe the government explanation, no matter how absurd. It’s much easier. And it’s the American way.
I’m sick of the US media constantly confusing Osama and Obama. Clearly one is the Muslim leader of the largest religion-inspired terror organisation in the world, and the other is lying at the bottom of the ocean.
heh heh
You see what they did there? How they psy-op us? First, it’s a heated firefight between Ossama and the seals. Now it’s something a bit more cold-blooded. Because, we can’t just come out and say we assassinated him. That’s just not who we are.
What did the Pakistani govermnent know about Osama bin Laden’s location?
http://www.favstocks.com/what-did-the-pakistani-govermnent-know-about-osama-bin-laden%E2%80%99s-location/0252601/
Also, OBL was Saudi, 9 out of 15 or something of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, so US attacked… Afghanistan!
Oh, wait, Saudi Arabia is filthy rich, is hand in hand with US elite and HAS A MODERN ARMY.
USA.
You.
Fucking.
Cowards.
I am disgusted.
The way you party for someone’s death, just like the Muslims rejoyed for 9/11.
The way you preach democracy and give away your freedom.
The way you attack the symbol, just to whitewash your conscience, and let everything else stay the way it was.
Do you feel better?
Do you really feel better?
Rejoy, the plotters are still alive and well.
Was the media portrayal of OBL justified? What media, the one that portrays him as a mass murderer or the one that shows him like a hero? He is a Mass murderer and religious fanatic. Good thing he is now food for the abissal fishes.
Is it good that he’s dead? Yes. At least he is usefull after death (see abissal fishes)
Are you worried about reprisal attacks? Yes, But they don’t love USA. Attacks are expected, being OBL alive or not.
Do you think that the death of Al Qaida’s spiritual leader heralds a downturn in violence? No. Arab awakeings like the ones in Egypt and Tunicia and their success in bringing democracy and development are the only ways to eliminate violence by crazy fanatics.
What does this mean for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? I don’t know. There are plenty of crazy fanatics (taliban) around.
Does it make you worry any more for friends and family serving overseas? No.
Do the soldiers that got him get the $25,000,000 bounty? I doubt it, but nobody in the world deserves a 25 million check more that them.
Osama Bin Laden was a mass murderer who met his end hiding away and using one of his wives as a human shield. I would hope that he serves as an example of any fanatic, regardless of their belief, who cries crocodile tears over their perceived injustices when they haven’t even read their own history and rules of living. Surely a great day in the war against fanaticism.
here here