For those of you who missed it, Mark Driscoll stopped trying to explain why pop culture is a product of Satan long enough to post the following on Facebook:
This created a blogstorm. Starting with Dianna Anderson contributing to Jesus Needs New PR, which generated a long argument about gender roles in the comments.
The next entry came from Rachel Held Evans, who bluntly said, Mark Driscoll is a bully. Stand up to him., which gets a round of applause from me. Since then the argument has spread to places like The Agnostics Wife’s Blog and Scotteriology.
I don’t know how much I should get into this. After all, the atheosphere is having its own arguments about gender and privilege. But the argument we’re having seems subtle in comparison. I think ours is about the privilege, which becomes tricky because privilege is invisible to the privileged. This other argument is about gender roles, and most of us already agree they are culturally determined.
I grew up in a liberal southern family. My idea of “manly” is Gregory Peck as Atticus Finch. That’s the sort of masculinity that appeals to a certain kind of bookish southern boy. However, I had friends whose definition of manliness rested on three pillars: alcohol, violence and sex (more practically: beer, professional wrestling and strip clubs.) After meeting this kind, my wife decided that “manly man” was just a polite way of saying “asshole.”
Are we going to pretend that one of these roles is written into the fabric of the universe as the definition of “masculine”? Any cursory read of gender roles throughout history shows that change is the only constant. In one historical moment, men are considered more cerebral. In the next, they’re the passionate sex. I hate to say it, but the high southern tradition I grew up with was a reaction to slavery. It’s a historical accident.
There’s one thing that hasn’t changed much: whatever “masculine” is defined to be, it is usually considered superior to whatever “feminine” happens to be. When there’s an exception, it’s usually a barbed one. For example, women were considered morally superior to men during Victorian times. This meant they needed to stay home and be the moral center of the family. Of course, it also meant that their refined moral sensibilities had to be shielded from the necessarily rough-and-tumble world of business and politics.
(At the same time, women were considered weak and morally inferior because of their weakness. Curse of Eve, donchaknow. I don’t know that this was ever resolved. Intellectual contradictions don’t seem all that important when they’re held by the population in power.)
Driscoll strikes me as a very authoritarian personality. He will never accept that his definition of masculinity isn’t the only and eternal one. God established our gender roles, and we are morally required to live within them. I’d find it amusing if there weren’t so many people in the argument who are echoing him.
One final response:Awesomologosit started the twitter hashtag #ManlyMen where various male bloggers are sharing their un-manly traits. I don’t know that this isn’t playing into the same type of gender stereotyping that Driscoll is guilty of. But in the spirit of reciprocity, I’ll point out that I cook and (occasionally) knit.
It’s interesting, isn’t it, that although cooking has traditionally been considered women’s work, until very recently the great professional chefs were almost exclusively male.
I cook. I cook very well. I have occasionally tried to sew, but I’m just not very good at it. I even knitted a scarf once, long before most of you were born. Hated knitting, hated the ugly scarf. I am content to leave the textile arts to people who enjoy them and know what they’re doing. E.g., my partner, who sews all my tunics and breeches for the SCA, and knits awesome wool socks to keep my feet warm and dry in the winter. He has also produced some incredible cross-stitch.
I’m trying to think of other things that I do that are traditionally “feminine”. Housework and laundry- but c’mon, those are just basic survival skills. Well, so is cooking IMO, but I’ve known a lot more guys than women who have lived alone for years and whose entire culinary repertoire still consists of opening a can of ravioli and microwaving the contents. I don’t care what your gender is, that’s just scary.
If one really gets into the history of the “domestic arts,” one finds that many of them were actually the province of all-male guilds.
I know this isn’t about Mark Driscoll, but what bothers me is that he dresses his paleoconservatism in “hipness” in his attempt to come off as modern and new but its the same old BS. Too many people fall for it.
In italy cooking was never a feminine trait, although you usually assume that a women can cook better than a man.
As for my feminine traits giving blowjobs counts?
Well, I’m a man who can cook anyway :-p
I always thought of BJ talent as a masculine thing, but then my opinion may be somewhat biased.
yea, as far as it concers my etero friend most girls aren’t good at it
*straps on armour*
*pulls down visor*
*checks first-aid kit*
Most women don’t give good head. There. I said it.
Feminists, you may now verbally beat me down for, oh, so many reasons.
Well, I assume that with same-gender sex every partner knows what the other one wants, and how to give it to him ^^
Indeed, or to her as the case may be. See, I’ve always wanted a lesbian friend to give me lessons in cunnilingus, but logistically it’s a bit of a nightmare :-p
Or, you could try talking to your lady. I’m sure she knows what she likes, and would be happy to share that knowledge with you.
An effective demonstration may prove a little difficult though, unless said lady is a gymnast.
I was thinking more with the involvement of a willing third party, or possibly some kind of model :-p
I don’t think the CPR dummies are that realistic.
From a purely rational point of view (as if there is really any such thing as far as sex is concerned), one would expect men to be better at it. They own and operate the same equipment.
Can’t say I have any idea how to do such a thing with my equipment but to be honest, I’ve never had a desire for it. Hands are better – I don’t have to sit there thinking “well this is nice but my partner’s mouth must feel/taste awful” and so on. Also hands don’t have teeth.
Personal hygiene, dude.
Fingernails are just as dangerous.
That made me smile – Two lesbian friends (not partners) had an extended discussion while we were having coffee the other day, about the importance of well-trimmed fingernails :-p
One would expect that…but there’s nothing in the world more perplexing and outright aggravating than a guy who can’t give a good blowjob.
I like that even this blog can visit the gutter occasionally :-D
hey, it doesn’t exactly come with instructions. And it’s not as if I have one of my own to fiddle around with in my spare time.
Agreed. I for one am always happy to give and take constructive criticism, but there’s no substitute for knowing personally what feels good to a penis. teehee. Driscoll 0, Gays 1.
As an honorary Igorina, I thought that you had access to all sorts of things.
Now I hafta go look up honorary igorina… Gotta be smart around here to keep up…All I get is wikipedia… Nope. No extra parts around here.
Until better training is available, I am happy to cede said job to those more qualified.
Try here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_%28Discworld%29
Igorina is an Igor of the female persuasion.
Discworld FTW!
Interesting. Never heard of Discworld before.
Oh, my. Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series is a must-read for any seriously irreverent person.
I suppose I should look into it, now that I’ve crossed the line between casual
and serious irreverence.
The first two books start out as parodies of the sword-and-sorcery genre and are fun reads in their own right, but beginning with “Equal Rites”, Pratchett begins to delve more seriously into social and religious issues. Or perhaps I should say that he sharpens his rapier and skewers them mercilessly. Once he hits his stride four or five books in, there’s no stopping him. “The Hogfather” is one of my favorites, where Death is forced by circumstances to take over for the Discworld’s equivalent of Santa Claus temporarily.
Do avoid the Discworld novel “Eric”, however. This was a serious literary misfire on Pratchett’s part.
You knit? That’s amazing! I am equally impressed by both the fact that you mastered the skill and the fact that you made a point to learn it, since knitting really is still considered a “girly” practice by society. Kudos, bro; creative pursuits are always wicked fun. :D
I don’t knit. You wouldn’t want me cooking for you. On the other hand, there’s been no sex since my second wife left me 13 years ago. (Oh, stop it with the condescending pity. It’s not as bad as all that.) I guess I could be violent if the situation really called for it. Never had so much as a beer in my life. Not quite sure where all that scores me on the wimp/real man continuum.
Man, it’s things like this (and the responses from christian women trying to do mental gymnastics to make their religion not seem like the absolutely sexist crap it is) that make me SOOOO glad I’m out! How much easier it is to say, “Why, yes. The fictional abrahamic god is a sexist dickhead!” and be done with it!
Amen.
Driscoll will have a stroke if he ever meet my parents. My mom always worked regular hours while my dad worked shifts that gave him a couple of free morning each week so he was the one who will be helping with school events or taking us to the playground as kids, this being the early 70′s he was the only male there. Since she’s much more mathematically inclined (and being an accountant) my mom was always the one in charge of the family finance while my dad did most of the cooking and housework. Somehow, despite growing in a house where traditional gender roles where not maintained me and my brothers managed to grow up sort of normal.
But you’ve turned out an atheist. Surely this is proof of how conflating gender roles leads to the demise of society.
I’m slowly learning to cook. I also felt like crying during Forest Gump a couple of times. I dislike real life violence and I don’t drink alcohol.
But other than that, I’m a manly male.
“I also felt like crying during Forest Gump a couple of times.”
… same here!
I feel this comment requires a closer examination of his preacher wife.
My boyfriend sews (mainly kilts, but he’s expanding his repertoire), and I knit. He cooks, and I do the dishes after. I tidy up, but he likes to roll up his sleeves and do the deep cleaning.
I’m actually really happy with the way our little household works, but it doesn’t look like Driscoll would be too thrilled. Fuck that guy.
If it ain’t people, I can’t sew it. Can’t knit. Can’t crochet. Hate scrapbooking. Own exactly one pair of shoes per color. I don’t like shopping. My cooking is subpar. So is my penmanship and spelling. In my younger years, I preferred doing my calculus homework to reading Pride and Prejudice. I cannot design a room or mix and match colors or patterns in a pleasing manner. Yet, no one would mistake me for a man.
However, I doubt Driscoll cares what we worldly heathens think, as we are all going to Hell anyway.
Us too, Noelle. My husband does the cooking (he’s sooo much better than I), the yard and takes care of the dogs. I clean, do the dishes and take care of all of our finances. We both do laundry. Our kids (girl and boy) learned to do all these things. Why should they be handicapped by lack of knowledge?
‘Traditional’ roles are so confining. as for the other ‘ahem’ discussion – I do my best with my limited knowledge and my sweet husband has never complained. LOL
Now I wish I’d taken NoL. :)
My husband and I do best utilizing each of our particular skills to make life work. He does more cooking. I do more cleaning. I earn the money. He has the math and finance sense on using and investing it. And it is great that he wants to stay home. Running a household and raising kids is a full-time job, and he’s good at it. Doesn’t make him any less manly.
To me the best “manly” trait a guy can have is to be secure in his masculinity (and sexuality), regardless of how it matches gender norms. It’s not something I ever recognized or could have put into words before I met my fiance, who is manly in many traditional ways (muscular, training for a triathlon, likes beer and burgers), but one of the things I loved about him early on in our relationship, as we had gay male friends and frequented the gay district where we lived, is that I’d never met a straight male who was so completely unfazed by other men hugging, kissing, holding hands, and even hitting on him, and by hugging (or working out with, swimming with, etc.) gay men. It feels silly to point out those last few things, but those are things that, in my experience, often make guys who are otherwise fine with homosexuality uncomfortable. I’m not on the market anymore, but even so, to me a guy who is uncomfortable around homosexuality is a huge turn-off.
My husband and I, both Bi, are a pretty mixed bag. I do a lot of creative crafting, leatherwork, garb for SCA (hello Ursa :) archery, primary cooking duties as well as trained in animation and 3d modelling. I hate chick flicks, he loves them. He does the outdoor cooking, is into martial arts, likes beer (I do too) but is also a feminist and treats me like a human being. He’s very good at going down but has admitted that men are better at blowjobs. I do my best :)
when hubby retired and I got a promotion, he ironed my shirts and slacks for work. He’s much better at it than I. He also sewed curtains for the house (I despise sewing since I had to do it the first 10 years of my adult life).
I’m the better cook and he gladly cleans up after me. He also rubs my feet almost every night and brings me coffee in the morning.
BTW, he was a jet mechanic.
tell that Driscoll dude to kiss my pampered ass
One of the historical men I admire, Miyamoto Musashi, advocated the practice of fine arts, such as calligraphy and sculpting. He was also famous for being un-defeatable in sword combat, even after he switched to using a wooden training sword in his later years. But I guess since he was into arts and shit, he’s not “manly” enough for Driscoll’s tastes.
Mas Oyama and Bruce Lee, the founders of Kyokushin Karate and Jeet Kun Do respectively, were also good dancers. Sorry guys, Mark says you’re not manly enough.