James McGrath shared this poster from the online group People of the Second Chance:
From the POTSC website:
In Hollywood history, Darth Vader is ranked as one of the biggest bad guys of all time. There has never been a more cold-blooded killer.
This guy didn’t even blink when deciding to destroy the entire planet of Alderaan and its inhabitants with the Death Star.
And yet, even Vader found redemption. Why? Because Luke Skywalker believed that there was something more than just hatred behind that black mask and respirator.
I can’t let this pass without a reference to David Brin’s classic rant “Star Wars” despots vs. “Star Trek” populists:
Those who listened to Homer recite the “Iliad” by a campfire knew great drama. Achilles could slay a thousand with the sweep of a hand — as Darth Vader murders billions with the press of a button — but none of those casualties matters next to the personal saga of a great one. The slaughtered victims are mere minions. Extras, without families or hopes to worry about shattering. Spear-carriers. Only the demigod’s personal drama is important.
Thus few protest the apotheosis of Darth Vader — nee Anakin Skywalker — in “Return of the Jedi.”
Anakin Skywalker destroys a planet, tortures his daughter and slays the jedi children. He gets a drawn out opportunity for redemption and a heartwarming moment with his son. Then he safely dies so that he doesn’t have to face the full repercussions of his actions, and this is followed by some sort of spectral afterlife, during which he shows no sign of making reparations.
The average Imperial soldier, who is likely only guilty of buying the propaganda, gets a blaster bolt in the head. Or gets squished by an Ewok log trap for a bit of comic relief.
So it goes.
But it was not his fault! It was Sata.. uh, the Dark Side that made him do it!
Are you sure it wasn’t Santa who pushed him over the edge? Finding a lump of coal in your stocking on Christmas morning can be very psychologically damaging.
Poor Vader. He’s the real victim in all of this. Just look what they did to him.
Not to mention how tasteless a joke it would be to give a man burnt to a crisp a lump of coal as a present.
“This guy didn’t even blink when deciding to destroy the entire planet of Alderaan and its inhabitants with the Death Star.”
Actually, it was Grand Moff Tarkin who ordered the destruction of Alderaan and some nameless, faceless dude who pushed the buttons to make it happen. Vader was a spectator.
Good point. Credit where credit is due!
Indeed, if you read his personal diaries, Grand Moff Tarkin was bragging about it.
http://www.firsttvdrama.com/funstuff/tarkin.php3
“My Dearest Lauren,
Remember that vacation trip you wanted to take to Alderaan? You’re going to have to change your plans on that one. If you haven’t heard about it yet, when you do, just remember it was your beloved who gave the order. I have the power baby!
Tarkin. “
So is this an argument, that if there is an afterlife, there should be a payment for the transgressions of the mortal life lived? :)
Kinda, at least if the afterlife is like the one that Vader seems to have.
He still seems to be able to interact with Luke and he still possesses the memories he had in life. I’d think the next step would be for him to pass on all the secret information that he possessed, so that the Rebels would then have a major advantage over the remaining Imperial forces.
And as far as I recall he does not torture Leila.
He used an interrogation droid on her in the Death Star. It was not on-screen, but I think it’s generally agreed that the droid tortured her.
in the italian translation it is a telepathic droid ^^
Torture is confirmed in one of the novelizations. Don’t know if you consider this canon.
I’m gonna consider that closeup on that hypodermic needle to be confirmation that the interrogation droid tortured her.
btw a large part of that rant is just ridiculous. It is based on the false premise that the Rebels are a form of government and aren’t a combat force fighting a war. “”rebels” in “Star Wars” have no recourse in law or markets or science or democracy” because you know, while you are fighting a galactical empire you always have elctions -.-
The star trooper are not “people”, they’re CLONES without family, trainer solely to fight.
Darth Vader was not “forgiven” by the population, he was forgiven by his son, who understood what happened to him and accepted it.
The whole part about how emotion can turn a eople into an evil being is flawed and twisted so much I do not actually have the time to expose it.
I find your lack of faith disturbing. Who are you to doubt the holy gospel of Lucas!?
The stormtroopers were largely made up of conscripts and recruits by this point in history, no longer just clones like in Episodes II and III. Also it is obvious from the range of faces and voices (all British, naturally) of the visible members of the Imperial Navy, even if the stormtroopers were all clones, lots of individuals were still swallowed up by the Imperial war machine.
I don’t think the point of the argument is that Vader was forgiven by the galaxy, so much as he is expected to be forgiven by the audience, who can let all his horrendous crimes slide because he saved one person. The rebels also are a government – they are called the Rebel Alliance and involve a certain level of political hierarchy and have member planets and solar systems, similar to the Separatist movement of Episodes II and III. I’m pretty sure (though this is off-screen expanded universe stuff) they held elections to sort out their leadership as well. Either way, they are definitely a political entity, though I’m not really sure what their status as political or just soldiers has to do with it. It doesn’t seem like that detail is the premise of the article.
I think the article does go a bit far in suggesting that Lucas is pushing all of this as his own agenda or version of morality – I really don’t think he’s thought it through that much, and just draws on common mythical elements and archetypes that have been used to tell stories for millennia. But the point remains that the morality on display is pretty awful and suggests that redressing the balance of supreme evil is pretty darn easy.
UF has gone nerdcore :-p
We have indeed, but I think it’s something worth talking about in contrast to the Judeo-Christian balance of good and evil: Anakin is redeemed for his near lifetime of horrendous sin by one virtuous act (and, to be honest, a somewhat self-serving one since he just couldn’t say no to saving someone he loved). Compare that to the average human who might never rape, murder, pillage or cause significant suffering in their lifetime but enjoy a little pot, have premarital sex or just not believe in god. Their fate is the same, under the Christian model, as the most tremendous villain, and it’s a fate of eternal consequences. Seems very unbalanced, and it takes the death of a god to make it right.
Young Anakin basically slaughtered a small tribe of Sand People, led the slaughter of young people and children just because they would have grown up to be Jedis. Who knows what war crimes he perpetrated in the 20 plus years as Darth Vader the Emperor’s right hand man. But that’s ok because his son believed in him and now he is in Jedi heaven with his bros.
Luke has closure but what about the victims and their families, hey sorry my dad killed your relatives but he’s really a good guy honest.
Actually Vader found redemption because that’s how the author wanted the story to go – sorry folks but he’s a fictional character.
Besides, I never bought it – it ruined the character to flip like that.
How does he differ from Jesus then?
Vader has the better outfit.
And his voice has much more sex appeal
Only if you ignore his asthma.
Okay, I can’t stand it. Someone has clearly not read the Iliad because, first of all, Achilleus does not kill a thousand with the sweep of his sword, and he does not kill without consequences. Most of the people killed in the action are named and killed individually and in a distinct fashion with minimal repetition. When Achilleus finally returns to battle, he knows that killing Hektor will bring on his own death, but his grief over the death of his henchman and need for revenge overrules this knowledge. Brin must be thinking of The Song of Roland or The Massacre at Da Derga’s Hostel where the mayhem is more outlandishly exaggerated.
that too. Based on the INCREDIBLE number of error concerning both Star Wars & The Iliad (which I had the pleasure to read in original language), it seems the author did not read/watch either of them
I think he was often exagerrating for effect,rather than being exact in his examples. He was speaking more about moral codes and ways of looking at the world as embodied by certain writing styles. That is at least what I got out of the ‘rant’. I would also suggest he has not read/watched either in quite a few years as he is active author, and scientist or proffesor can’t recall for sure and not worth looking up for this point. He was ‘ranting’ he said what he wanted and didn’t bother to make it perfect there were quite a few typos in it as well, which led me to the idea it was done quickly and posted just as quick.
Sorry, I’m just an Iliad-nerd. However, I do believe in redemption, sorta. And I think Forgiveness is a suitable punishment (in addition to jail time). From what I recall of the Star Wars Saga, Anakin was not someone incapable of feeling to start with (say, he’s not a serial killer) and made himself Darth Vader – so he’s equally capable of going the other way.
And in the, ahem, Odyssey, Achilleus retracts his decision to die for immortality through glory rather than live a long life. He says he would rather have lived a slave than king of the dead. You can chalk that up to inconsistencies between the two works or a creeping dissatisfaction with the culture of the warrior.
You have missed Brins point entirely focusing only on a few of his examples, his actual point is spot on as far as the critisism goes. Basically,it’s about gods and demi gods vs. humans that COULD exist as devices to tell a story and which he thinks is a better method, also speaking of the morality of both as it relates to mankind…thus the use of Vader and the Illiad. He also says both forms resonate with us,but he feels one is worse than the other. Hey, I like the Illiad too,I also like Brins works of fiction(having read the Postman and seeing the movie,it was a decent translation from book to film and I liked it.).
You boys are so cute when ya get all geeky.
We can’t take credit for it. It’s the geektosterone talking.
Always did like geektosterone. That fetish mighta been my undoing as a good Christian girl. Atheist geeks is the best kind. Even if (or because?) as a teen, getting caught listening in on a conversation of geeky boys would often earn me the look of scorn.
Girls geek out too >.>
My girl is currently at Dragon Con (well the location. It starts Friday)
She is going to be dressed as the 4th Doctor.
Geektosterone is not a sex hormone, and is found in both men and women. Symptoms of overdose or poisoning may include reduced grooming behavior, excessive social awkwardness, and obsession with cool trivia that normal people find unbearably, well, trivial..
Geektosterone levels are also positively correlated with the desire to learn how to speak or read Klingon, though not with skill at actually doing so.
bortaS bIr jablu’DI’ reH QaQqu’ nay’!
yuch vImaS. NuqDaq ‘oH Dapol?
I’ll have to wait until they add it to Google Translate.
Mmmmm… Chocolate…
It’s in the cooling chamber so it won’t melt.
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The real answer to this rant is that Star Wars is BADLY WRITTEN. Always was. It was fun to look at, but it never at any point had a brain in its head or a consistent plot or world building. Lucas is a terrible writer who nailed a cultural zeitgeist with A New Hope and has been surfacing that wave ever since.
Surfacing = surfing.
I’m still never forgiving him for the three prequels, though. Particularly the Anakin Skywalker casting. Both of them. I will admit that Darth Maul kicked ass, though. Fun fact – The actor was a Scottish mixed martial artist who’s also been in Sleepy Hollow and X Men.
IIRC, the actor basically blocked out the action sequences himself, particularly the final battle that everybody loved. Lucas doesn’t get any credit for that.
This is always true. The stunt coordinator always blocks out the fights. Most directors/writers would have no idea how to actually do that. In this case, the actor was also a seasoned stuntman and fight coordinator.
Having been on set now when this process happens, I can report that the director says, “I’d like a five second fight that ends in a disemboweling,” and then wanders off to do something else. Then the stunt coordinator and the second unit director have a meeting to decide what that actually looks like.
I think that’s what John Scalzi would say as well. Good to see science fiction authors agreeing.
Agreed. Star Wars is chewing gum for the brain and eyes. Fast-paced, feel-good and gorgeous, yet utterly without depth.