A Question: What Christian Voices Am I Missing?

Well, you did ask for a sign. God.I’ve been hearing a lot of complaints from conservative Christians about how hostile American culture has become to Christianity. One major claim is that is that Christianity is being driven out of the public square. As an outsider, I just can’t see this happening. Let me just describe the Christian expressions I see just during my hour long morning routine:

  • On the morning news there was a commercial for a local church. This church runs a commercial at this time slot everyday.
  • There’s a news story in the paper about a legal action by the FFRF. The paper gets quotes from both sides.
  • During the morning commute of ten miles, I pass by twelve churches and several affiliated structures. Most have signs out expressing a religious point, whether it’s the topic of the weekly sermon (“Sin and Temptation”) or an aphorism (“Lost? The Bible is your GPS.”). Most seem healthy, and there have been no church closings along my route.
  • I spin the radio dial. There are four explicitly Christian radio stations. One is playing a recorded sermon, one has a Bible lesson and the other two are playing Christian rock. I’m not counting the college station for the local Catholic university, nor the talk channels that lean conservative Christian, nor anything on the AM channels.
  • I see several cars with Jesus fish and Christian bumper stickers. (I lost track of the number, and couldn’t get close enough to identify several.)
  • I pass a demonstration in front of the local Planned Parenthood. This is a small demonstration (1-5 people), but it is present every day, throughout the day. Everyone has signs, about half of which are religious (“God knew you in the womb,” “Pray to end abortion,” etc.)
  • There are no Christian billboards at the moment, but there have been in the past. I’ve seen ads for churches, political arguments sponsored by churches and evangelical billboards. One of the latter was a picture of Jesus with the caption “Call him and he will come,” in english and (I believe) hebrew.

Let me make clear that I am not objecting to any of this. But It seems to me that religious Christians have many outlets for the expression of their faith into the community in which they belong. If a simple 25 minute commute produces this many examples of Christian voices speaking about their religion, then what exactly is missing? What should this look like? What would be there if Christian voices weren’t excluded from the public square?

Another point: with the exception of a single “Coexist” bumper sticker, there was no representation from any religious source other than Christianity. The Capitol region is diverse, and I know Sikhs, Jews, Muslims, Pagans and other religious people in the area. And yet, none of these people are represented in the area through which I commute.

I suspect, having talked with some representatives of minority religions, that many people simply don’t want to deal with the flack they’d catch from conservative and evangelical Christians if they were to speak out. A sign advocating a Muslim opinion would likely be vandalised within hours. A car with a Jewish bumper sticker would quickly be buried underneath evangelical tracts.

If we’re going to talk about how social pressure is forcing Christianity out of the public spaces, and yet there are still all these Christian voices, shouldn’t we start by talking about how social pressure is completely forcing out all other religious voices first?

  • Lynn123

    I think Christianity wants to be top dog and wants to be respected. They don’t like the competition from other religions, and they don’t like it that atheism/agnostics have more of a voice now. They aren’t used to having their beliefs portrayed as untrue or silly. They like people to be awed by the beauty and sacredness of those beliefs. They don’t like their hypocrisy pointed out.

    Maybe it’s like if you’re a girl who likes to tell everybody what they should be doing or likes to tattle to the teacher, but then can’t figure out why nobody likes you, or worse, you have more and more in the class that just laugh at you and don’t take you seriously.

    • jane

      SEEN THIS ARTICLE AND HAVE TO SAY A RESOUNDING AMEN!!!!! IT WAS ON “PHILADELPHIA TRUMPET” WHICH IS A PROPHECY NEWS SITE.
      5 Lessons From the Attack on Chick-fil-A
      August 1, 2012 • From theTrumpet.com
      ‘Take a hike and take your intolerance with you.’ How’s that for irony?

      Examples of mainstream America’s hatred of God and the Bible abound, but this has to be one of the worst to date.

      A ridiculous brouhaha has developed over an innocuous article in the Baptist Press two weeks ago. It was a feature on the president of fast food chain Chick-fil-A, and how he lets his faith guide his business decisions, like closing his stores on Sundays. The article mentioned opposition the company has faced for its support of traditional family. “Well, guilty as charged,” Dan Cathy responded. “We are very much supportive of the family—the biblical definition of the family unit. … We want to do anything we possibly can to strengthen families. … We know that it might not be popular with everyone, but thank the Lord, we live in a country where we can share our values and operate on biblical principles.”

      For those statements, Mr. Cathy was absolutely pilloried.

      (Click to enlarge) Protesters hold signs and shout slogans outside a Chick-fil-A food truck in Washington on July 26. (ROBERT MACPHERSON/AFP/Getty Images)The mayor of Boston threatened to deny Chick-fil-A licenses to operate in his city. Muppets creator Jim Henson Co., which was making toys for kids’ meals, severed ties with the restaurant. A Chicago alderman announced he would block the company from opening a new store in his ward. Chicago’s mayor agreed, saying, “Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values.” San Francisco’s mayor warned the company not to open a restaurant there. A Philadelphia councilman sent a letter to Dan Cathy telling his company to “take a hike and take your intolerance with you.” A New York councilman threatened to withhold a business permit until Chick-fil-A broke ties with groups that oppose same-sex marriage. Celebrities issued public condemnations, many of them loaded with obscenities. Protesters stood outside stores urging customers to boycott. News organizations characterized Cathy’s pro-family comments as “anti-gay.” A YouGov poll showed that public perception of his company has taken a massive hit in the last two weeks.

      Here are five lessons to take from this appalling, embarrassing story.

      1) Behold the liberal definition of “tolerance.”

      Chick-fil-A has never been accused of discriminating against homosexuals in its hiring, its service or other business practices. These folks want to shut it down for its president’s personal beliefs.

      To these people, you’re only “open minded” if you agree with them. And “tolerance” demands extreme intolerance of alternative views. Welcome to America 2012.

      2) This shows the spectacular arrogance of the liberal left.

      Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s rant continued, “If you’re gonna be part of the Chicago community, you should reflect Chicago values.” Since when does a city’s mayor decide what “values” must be held by the people who live there?

      The fact is, they don’t, they can’t—and they know it. Legally, city officials cannot impose a religious test on people who want to open a business. But these officials don’t care. They want to intimidate and bully people. And they score plenty of political points from their liberal supporters when they do.

      3) We are looking at hypocrisy on an epic scale.

      Are the Chick-fil-A bashers really so opposed to those who don’t support same-sex “marriage”? Then why single out one business? Surely there are other business owners who harbor a similar belief; after all, it’s not that unusual. The numbers are falling, but a recent Pew poll said 44 percent of Americans still oppose same-sex “marriage.” That would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 137 million people in this country. Are none of them welcome in Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Philadelphia, New York? Or is it just that they’re not welcome to start businesses there?

      Where is the condemnation of businesses owned by Muslims whose religion informs their opposition to homosexuality?

      Mayor Emanuel, in fact, is partnering with Louis Farrakhan to reduce homicides in Chicago. The Nation of Islam leader, besides being famously anti-Semitic, also opposes same-sex unions; just two months ago, Farrakhan blasted President Obama for endorsing homosexual “marriage”—with explicit anti-homosexual language miles beyond Cathy’s general pro-family remark. When will the mayor ostracize Farrakhan for not holding “Chicago values”?

      For that matter, when did he ever say a word of criticism against President Obama, who opposed homosexual marriage while Emanuel served as his chief of staff for nearly two years?

      4) Politically correct “diversity” includes practically all groups but one.

      The fact is, there is really only one group targeted by these nasty, sanctimonious attacks. The politically correct version of “diversity” happily includes people of all races and religions—even those that practice forced marriage, polygamy, sending their children on suicide bombing missions, what have you—except one. This group must be shunned. The message to them: “Take a hike, and take your intolerance with you.”

      Who are they? Bible believers.

      Nobody inspires vitriol, spite and bigotry like someone who actually lets Scripture govern his beliefs. There’s a reason for that—and it’s in the Bible.

      5) We are witnessing head-spinning, lightning-fast social change.

      Marriage is the single most enduring institution in human civilization. It makes sense. There is simply no better way to ensure that children grow up in a stable environment than for them to be raised by the two individuals who biologically produced them, within an exclusive, lifelong relationship. Mankind—and not just Bible-believers—has been defining marriage as being between a man and a woman for thousands of years.

      Quite suddenly, in the United States, it is a minority position. This past May, the nation’s president recognized that support for same-sex “marriage” had become politically acceptable enough to publicly embrace. Just weeks later, major politicians saw a businessman who puts “biblical definition” in front of family and targeted him for public flogging. Now the Democratic Party is considering support for same-sex “marriage” as part of its official party platform.

      It is absolutely extraordinary how rapid this revolutionary change has been.

      “We know that it might not be popular with everyone, but thank the Lord, we live in a country where we can share our values and operate on biblical principles.” It was just a couple weeks ago that an unsuspecting, family-loving businessman uttered those words. Who knew just how out of step he was?

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      • Sunny Day

        tldr

        • Nox

          Sunny,
          …and entirely full of sh*t.

          If you get all your information from “prophecy news sites”, it is not surprising that you would think the things in that article are true. It’s certainly consistent with how most conservative news outlets have been reporting the story. But some basic fact checking would have cleared up most of it.

          No one is trying to take away Mr. Cathy’s right to hold his religious beliefs. Religious beliefs, like sexual orientation should be a personal matter. We’re not trying to take away your right to hold your religious beliefs. I know pretending that christians are a persecuted group makes you feel better about persecuting others, but again some basic fact checking will clear this up.

          The owner of CFA did not just express an annoying opinion. He spent millions of dollars (on behalf of his company) to lobby to have laws passed in this country to deny rights to gay people, and in other countries to have gay people put to death. In response some people have announced they will not eat at Chic-Fil-A, and have called on anyone of conscience to do likewise. Do the threats, manipulation and bullying of gay people register as bullying to you? Or do you just get offended when people don’t buy chicken sandwiches?

          • Nox

            An annoying place for a typo.

            Obviously that should say:

            Sunny,
            …and entirely full of sh*t.

            Jane,
            If you get all your information…

          • Petticoat Philosopher

            Also, the mayor of Boston did NOT threaten to deny them a license. He simply sent them an open letter “urging” them to reconsider opening there. He was openly pissed off about what they had done and he expressed that feeling. Free speech: it runs both ways.

            And why shouldn’t the Jim Henson company pull its toys? What would you prefer, that they be forced to do business with the company? Is that the bar you set for “tolerance” for liberals?

      • Helen

        Are the Chick-fil-A bashers really so opposed to those who don’t support same-sex “marriage”?

        Yes.

        Marriage has been redefined in a million different ways since it’s inception.

        Oh, and FYI, when a minority group demand the same rights as a majority group, that is not discrimination.

      • Paul H.

        Jane: You need to thank those who wrote the Constitution and attached the Bill of Rights for providing a secular document that protects all religions. What we don’t need is a bunch of bible thumpers whining about persecution that doesn’t exist while demanding everyone agrees with their narrow interpretation of the bible.

    • Norm

      Atheism has a voice now eh,why wasnt that voice raised for Alexander Aan the Indonesian jailed for 2 years for admitting hes an atheist.The sad part is atheist groups could only raise 8000 signatures in a month, well under the 25000 needed tocause the government to look into challenging the ruleing.Silence and indiference is all Alexander heard.

      • Nox

        Your fake sympathy is noted. Now here’s some indifference.

  • RobG

    When I hear the term “public square”, I tend to think it is meant to refer more to areas that belong to the capital-P Public: places like public schools, courthouses, public parks, and other areas that are maintained by public money, where arguably the separation of church and state should be in effect. So for me, complaining about the removal of religion from the public square is really a complaint about the lack of official state support for Christianity. (“Official” being the key word, since unofficial support for Christianity is in no danger at all.)

    • Shrubber

      Exactly. Thank you for your eloquence.

  • Helen

    This spark has been kindled with gay marriage in the UK. Churches are proclaiming that gay marriage is against the bible, and they’ve been a bit disconcerted by the amount of people saying, “so what?”

    They’ve also try to paint not being special, as being persecuted. Which annoys me because they *are* still treated as special, and shouldn’t be. I’m sick of it being okay to persecute minorities as long as you have some sort of tract to back you up.

    • Custador

      It’s also quite funny that the CofE doesn’t get the irony of accusing homosexuals of attacking the sanctity of marriage, when the CofE was created in order to attack the sanctity of marriage. Really. That is quite funny to me.

      • blotonthelandscape

        This. Precisely this. Although to be fair, it is a handful of large, very wealthy parishes which are forcing the issue on the church as a whole, mostly in London, by threatening a schism if the church doesn’t tow their ultra-conservative line.

        • Petticoat Philosopher

          Wait, so these are Anglican parishes that are making all the noise and not independent evangelical churches? I’m surprised. I kind of thought that the official Church of England was over this crap.

          • Mogg

            It’s the more evangelical wing of the Anglican church, who hold that female priests and openly gay priests are icky.

          • blotonthelandscape

            Well, if your only exposure to CofE is the current Arch-Bish, it’s not surprising that you’d come to that conclusion. I think he probably felt the same way.

            I think these parishes may well have been infected by Evangelical thought, particularly the ones in London which are exposed to high immigrant populations (it wouldn’t at all surprise me if the demographic was largely African christians, who are notoriously backward on these things). And there is a big move by evangelical types to “infiltrate” the established churches by doing the right degrees and saying the right things to get the dog collar. One I attended in Oxford was very much like this.

            • Nate Sauve

              White? check
              Male? check
              Imperialist? check.

              Of course you know best.

            • http://themikewrites.blogspot.com JohnMWhite

              That’s a lot of assuming going on there…

          • Helen

            Unfortunately not. Bishops and arch-bishops are the worst offenders – many canons and priests are not in favour of bigotry.

      • Helen

        YES.

  • vasaroti

    What you’ve done is pointed out how commercialized Christianity is in the US. It reminds me of India, where so many businesses are explicitly dedicated to Lakshmi, Ganesh, etc., and feature religious images on their packaging. Sadly, Christian visuals lack that cheerful folk art quality. If you went to Egypt, you’d find an Allah sign in every shop window, and of course the religious auditory onslaught in Middle Eastern countries is inescapable.
    I humbly suggest that American atheists come up with more positive message billboards and buy chunks of time on AM stations, again, focusing on the benefits of a godless life.

  • http://examined-life.tumblr.com Iosue

    From my limited experience as a U.S. American who has done a little travelling overseas (and having a few friends outside the U.S.), it seems that the U.S. has a far greater tendency to “broadcast” their opinions to others more than their other OECD counterparts, espeially when it comes to t-shirts or bumper stickers advertising one’s religious views (or absence thereof). Its generally regarded to be in bad taste–but this is yet another instance of so-called “American exceptionalism” I suppose. Which makes me wonder WHY would anyone WANT to let everyone know what ought to be private matters anyway. Perhaps if U.S. Christians weren’t so insecure in their faith, they wouldn’t see the need to let the whole world know that *I*(look at me! look at me!) am a Christian. These Christians have obviously never read Matthew 6:6…

  • Brocasbrian

    The erosion of christian privilege is the new martyrdom.

  • Sue Blue

    Christians have a persecution complex. It’s enshrined in their beliefs. The only way to know if you’re on the “righteous” path is whether you’re being persecuted or not. The more you’re persecuted, the more righteous you are. Jesus said so! Jesus told his disciples they’d be persecuted for “his name’s sake” and they should be happy about it because the more his followers suffered for him, the better would be their reward in heaven. The only problem with this is that no one’s crucifying Christians upside down or feeding them to the lions or doing anything really outre these days. These days, about the best Christians can do is to claim that being offended is the same as persecution. Voila! Evolution being taught in schools, atheist billboards and the horrible, horrible “War on Christmas” – it’s all persecution!

    • http://blog.luigiscorner.com Azel

      Didn’t they persecute each other in the good old days ? So here is their answer to the lack of persecution: stop outsourcing it to others ! For best efficiency, they should persecute themselves: after all, God helps those who help themselves.

      • jane

        101 Last Days Prophecies…

        [Proselytizing prophecy gobbledygook zotted by srvr mnkys. This particular monkey is normally even pretty tolerant of this crap despite the policy, and yet when I pasted into a Word doc to see the length, srsly, 27 pages. If you're going to violate a posting policy, do us all a kindness and keep it short.]

        • Nox

          Okay, I’m often guilty of ignoring the law of brevity, but that sh*t there is just straight spam (though it is technically on the topic of the persecution complex some christians display and how that ties into the verses telling them that being persecuted for Jesus will earn them heaven points).

          By the way Jane, are you going to address the fact that after you already made these same claims in another thread, UrsaMinor and myself pointed out that the new testament specifically says the end of the world will be 2,000 years ago?

    • pagansister

      Sue Blue, I tend to agree with you when it applies to the Christians in this country (USA) but in other countries there are Christians being persecuted. If the Christians here want to complain about how they are mistreated, perhaps they should check out some major counties where they are not tolerated at all. They really have nothing here to compare to overseas, IMO.

      • Sue Blue

        Yes, there are Christians being persecuted in other countries…by other religions, and even by different Christian sects. American Christians are just whiners. They get a hangnail and you’d think their fingernails were being pulled out with pliers.

      • Mogg

        Although it should be noted that in a lot of places where Christians are persecuted, atheists and other beliefs, and different sects of the predominant religion, are also persecuted. If I were to travel to the Middle East, for example, I’d prefer to call myself Christian than atheist. Oh, for a world where what you believe is a matter only for yourself!

      • Helen

        Other countries, definitely, not the UK or US. I find it particularly insulting that they are appropriating the genuine struggles religious people face in other countries.

  • http://www.brgulker.wordpress.com brgulker

    I think a lot of Christians are confused right now because of issues like gay marriage.

    I would argue that there is a backlash against Christians when it comes to the legal side of that debate. I think a lot (most) of secular folks, as well as more progressive and liberal Christians, are content to respect an individual’s right to have a religious belief about sexuality. However, they aren’t willing to let those religious beliefs be the basis for certain laws.

    I think conservative Christians are confusing that backlash with being pushed out of society all together.

    • Custador

      Exactly. The Christian right are so used to getting their own way and having nobody question them, that when they finally push people hard enough to actually argue back, they are utterly incapable of seeing that it’s their own fault – Failing to agree with them is, in their eyes persecuting them.

  • John C

    What Christian voices are you missing? There’s only One.

    • The One Voice

      Phnglui mglw nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah nagl fhtagn!

      • po

        Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!

        • Bob Jase

          Won’t someone think of Shub Niggurath’s children?

    • Johan

      You mean that voice you started to hear after your drug induced visions? Didn’t you say you became a believer after a long drug binge? Maybe there was a minor stroke in the woo section of your brain.

      • Kodie

        He did take drugs, but he found Jesus after fasting for, like, a month.

  • Dale

    Xians are not upset because they have no voice, if anything they are more vocal than ever in their death throws as a dying mythology. What they are really upset about is that in the absence of inquisitions, people are questioning and even disagreeing with them.

  • Ken

    I know I called for Jesus to do ANYTHING for years. Zip. Nada. So that’s one major argument down. Now the Christian Singles ads are saying “Maybe God is telling you to do something for yourself,” which is kinda like, “Piss off.” Why do I need a God for this, if I have to do it myself anyway? The Christians can be so funny at times.

    • Kodie

      YES. Exactly.

  • smrnda

    Given how often I get accosted in public by some Christian trying to recruit me, Christians are in no way barred from the public square and many of them choose to be about as rude and intrusive as possible. If Christians were being silenced, how would this be possible? If Christianity was being persecuted, why so many churches, all with nice architecture, sound systems and all with a great tax dodge? If Christians were being silenced, why are so many Christian tracts littering so many train stations and bus stops?

    I think what is really going on, and what nobody would want to admit, is that Christians realize that they don’t have the power to shame the rest of us into offering up lip service to their beliefs and ideals, and that they can’t force people to show respect to their religion anymore, and that they have to coexist with other people rather then just assuming they own the whole country and everybody else is here as a courtesy. Any privileged group used to a high level of social dominance isn’t going to gladly accept equality, they want privilege.

    • Kodie

      Most of them seem to have a terrible understanding about free speech, that’s why.

      • smrnda

        Part of it is that they believe so strongly that what they are doing is right, and that everybody both wants and needs to hear ‘the Gospel’ that they find themselves believing they are beyond rules and manners.

        Free speech does not mean you can feel free to bang on my door at 9am on a Saturday morning, and it means that if I tell you I don’t want to talk to you about the book of Mormon on the bus would you please leave me alone, and you can quit trying to hand me tracts or get me to a Bible study – I read it all before.

        I also think that many Christians cannot figure out the idea of anything being religiously neutral. They are all sort of Tim Tebow-ish in that they have to acknowledge their religion about every ten seconds, and the idea that they might have to go through school or work all day without turning something into a worship service seems like an imposition.

    • Helen

      THIS. I can demand that door step salesmen remove me from their lists. Why can’t the same apply to Mormons? Who have accosted me on: the street, my doorstep, the bus, the bus stop.

  • Sue Blue

    Christians don’t have a voice? They’re being kicked out of the “public square”? Really? I live in one of the most secular regions of the West, and there are 17 churches, all of them large and apparently prosperous, in my town of just under 7,000 people. I can’t drive away from my home in any direction without seeing huge church marquees with pious puns and aphorisms and bible verses on them in foot-tall letters. There are “Good News” Clubs in every elementary school around, luring children to bible classes with cookies and punch. Every time I get online, there are Christian and Mormon ads all over every webpage. I’d have to be deaf, blind, and living in a cave in Antarctica to get away from their f***king voices in the public square.

  • Christine

    For the record, it is a particular subset of Christians (who claim that they are all Christians, partially by saying that the rest of us clearly aren’t Christian) who make these idiotic claims.

    What they want in the public sphere isn’t Christianity. It’s their culture. Yes, religion might be a part of this culture, but even if everyone went to church on Sunday, and lived by it the rest of the week, they wouldn’t have what they wanted. Actually, they’d be in big trouble. They’d start to look bad for not dining with “sinners”. Instead they’re dining in places that specifically aim to harass them. They’d start to be the only ones celebrating the secular version of Christmas because let’s face it: what they complain that the stores should be doing has nothing to do with religious observance. Trees? Celebrating at the beginning of December?

    So basically, because they’re defining everything to fit their own narrow little definitions, you could have every radio station on the dial be explicitly Christian, have a Jesus fish on all the cars, no “Coexist” ones, no hijabi women, etc., and they would still find a way to make pretty much the same complaints. (“The true Christian voice is lost! What good does a fish do unless you also XXX?”)

  • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

    Christianity Is simple it’s the voice of Faith. If you understand that faith is a tool not a belief. It can move mountains show like a tool to me. And any body I mean any body can use it. You don’t have to be a christian to use it. The thing is Christians use it to believe in God. And non-christian use it to believe in what ever they chose. It’s how every thing operates. So welcome to the world of faith.

    • Troutbane

      “It can move mountains”
      I would absolutley LOVE for someone, ANYONE to show this on film. It is supposed to be that easy, but never ever happens. The funny thing is, when you point that out, people say you can’t test God like that (or some other excuse), but then they go and “prove” God by “healing” the sick or snakehandling or whatever crap they can claim.
      Serious, move a mountain, any mountain, and record it. If one person could do that from any faith, that faith would be proven to be the one true religion.
      Go ahead, Im waiting.

      • smrnda

        The problem with ‘faith’ is that not all things require an equal level of faith. Belief in God is certainly different than me believing that the sun will rise in the east and set in the west. I’m using a lifetime of consistent observations to tell me that’s how it’s going to be tomorrow.

        The problem is that, if you actually look at facts, you can’t just choose to believe anything you want. I don’t believe that global warming is happening because I feel like it, but because there is evidence to support that claim. I mean, it’d be nice if it wasn’t the case. Any rational person examines evidence to determine what is true, and then also takes into account how solid the evidence is. I mentioned global warming before, and I could state that I don’t find the evidence that cell phone radiation has negative health effects to be that persuasive. In neither case do I feel like I’m making a choice on what to believe – the evidence is either there or not.

        To some extent, belief can influence things, things like the placebo effect, but ordinarily just believing something isn’t going to make it true.

        • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

          Truth is it’s the same faith You were told by somebody that it was it was different so you believe them. They told you that cause they need excuse. They prayed and nothing happen.

          • Kodie

            Do you have any idea how incoherent you are? This is before and aside we discuss your wrongness, but you have verbal diarrhea. What the fuck are you even talking about, you can’t even tell when people are making fun of you.

            • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

              Well your so coherent why don’t you tell truth about faith. I will because I’m not ashamed Of the Gosbel. And it make me mad when religion folk’s lie about the truth for selfish gain.

            • Kodie

              You don’t even know how to spell gospel. You’re not delivering a message of hope or peace or love, you sound like a crazy person who doesn’t know the first fucking thing about what he’s talking about. Maybe go collect your thoughts or some shit. I feel like you really want to tell us something but you don’t realize your own limitations in getting that message out, which is sad. So many more coherent people have come before you, saying similar things and yet unconvincing, lacking evidence and intellect, but you are not even in that league. In some case, maybe we could see you are pliable enough to convince you’re totally wrong, which you totally are, but you are maybe 11 years old? 12? It’s really not fair to beat the fucking hell out of you.

      • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

        Faith is not a religion.

        • FO

          Faith is far worse than religion, in fact.
          Faith is believing anything just because it makes you feel good in the short term.
          That’s no good thing.

      • John C

        Happens all the time, friend. What is a mountain? Is there any record in the NT of Jesus commanding a (literal) mountain to be moved and ‘cast in the sea’? No. Here’s a hint, what if there is a ‘mountain’ obscuring your view even now, Sir. Or Ma’am.

        • Brian K

          We call this mountain “Reality”, Mr. C. Only “faith” can move reality enough to allow believers to think they see what their religion demands they see.

    • Sunny Day

      Faith is a tool to get people to follow unreasonable things.

      • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

        When you don’t know the truth you can be deceived.

        • FO

          When you are ready to believe everything you can be deceived.

        • Sunny Day

          When you define truth so loosely as you do, the word becomes meaningless.

    • Kodie

      Your credibility as an individual is absent in your thrashing about sounding like a complete idiot. If you have to tell us the truth that you know and we are without, at least dig deep and sound credible. Assemble some fucking arguments and don’t sound so crazy.

  • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

    There is a many places were man has moved mountains by faith. How about the Panama Canal that took faith. Every body at the time said you can’t do that. Well well well Faith is here it’s just waiting to be use by any body. Stop believe the lie of man and start believing the truth faith dose work.

    • Kodie

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_canal

      It took 33 years to build the Panama Canal, whereas god allegedly created the whole fucking universe including the earth and all life in 6 goddamned days. Well well well? What the fuck man.

    • Sunny Day

      Engineering is not faith you idiot.

      • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

        Engineering Is totally faith based. You have a vision you put it in front of yourself and you don’t let go until your dream is fulfill. If that’s not faith. You are call what is not there into been are you not?

        • Kodie

          You’re right, I built a wall with my mind power just now and it took about 10 seconds. I think yours took at least 20 seconds.

          • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

            Yep when you build in your mind you will build with your hands

        • Johan

          You are redefining Faith to suit your own purposes, switching between multiple definitions in order to skew the conversation your way. That is a sign of deceptiveness. Honest people don’t need to play those kind of word games. By your sloppy and deceptive reasoning turning on a television would require faith.

          People like you are a great way to show how detached from reality faith based thinking is.

        • pagansister

          Engineering is totally faith based? You must be kidding. I’m married to an engineer. He has no use for a god either, so guess his work never happened. :o)

        • FO

          Ok.
          What is NOT faith based then?

          • UrsaMinor

            Actually, I like where WOULDUBELIEVEIT has gone with this. The argument is that Faith is all-pervasive. It is the Swiss Army Knife of Concepts. Every thing is Faith, and Faith is everything. Therefore it ceases to be a meaningful distinguishing factor between any two contrasting ideas or conflicting data points and we can dispense with it entirely.

            • Elemenope

              Parsimony is a bitch.

    • pagansister

      It was called engineering that built the Canal, wouldubelieveit, and a divine being had nothing to do with it. How was Stonehenge built? By folks you would probably call Pagans. How did those Heathen folks in Egypt build the Sphinx or the famous Pyramids? God? I could go on, but I think the answer to all those questions is: Engineering. Sorry, can’t buy the god thing. It works for you—great. However I’m not looking to your answer to move any mountains or build anything special.

  • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

    You got born again because you believed. That took faith. You heard just a word and you gave your life to it. Jesus is the word right. The same spirit that raized Him from the dead lives in you dose it not. If your in a battle you need something to hold onto that’s the way we are made to work together and then there is nothing impossible for use. We were made that way by our creator. Don’t Doubt God on this He made the world by faith and then he gave it to man kind.

    • TrickQuestion

      Learn to

    • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

      PS. Not just the world. But FAITH HE BUILD IT WITH TO. He gave that to man. When that revelation hits you. You will start using faith and get results.

      • Kodie

        You seem like the kind of person nobody should believe knows what he’s talking about. Strangely, this does not say what you say is true or I say is true, but you sound like a lunatic with no bearing on reality at all. If someone knows what’s going on, it certainly isn’t you.

        • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

          REALITY . According to you are me dose it madder you can believe what ever want to believe
          We are just passing through learn how to use the tools that are here. Because you may need them on the next stop. Cause the ones from the last place got you here did they not?

          • Kodie

            Did your mom teach you how to spell?

            • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

              Spell hell typing is what work’n on. ha ha

            • Kodie

              You must think we’re stupider than you are.

      • Sue Blue

        Get back on your meds. If you’re not on meds, get help. Now. I’ve heard people in the grip of schizophrenic psychosis that make more sense than you.

  • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

    It happen did it not

    • TrickQuestion

      use the

  • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

    I wasn’t there so I have to believe disbelieving man has only been on this earth about 6000 years

    • TrickQuestion

      reply button.

      • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

        thanks

    • Kodie

      How do you know anyone was alive before you were born?

  • Guest Speaker

    Faith = believing something without evidence.

    Maybe those who built the Panama Canal continued in the face of all evidence telling them otherwise and succeeded in the end.

    But at some point you have to look at the evidence… I knew a 5’8″ fat guy who had “faith” he could play in the NBA one day. Needless to say it didn’t work out too well for him no matter how much he truly believed it to be true.

    “Faith” in some supernatural mumbo-jumbo some dude made up because of wishful thinking is just idiotic and nothing to be proud of.

    • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

      Faith is always more than just believing. It will ask you to sacrifice. Look at the stories in the bible and see. It will take you out of you comfort zone.

      • Johan

        Are you on day leave from an asylum? Please report back before your curfew.

        Faith is disgusting. Faith can be used to get people to believe in the most foul things imaginable. In order to make the next year begin we must sacrifice 1000 virgins and eat their hearts, just have faith! It will ask you to sacrifice, right? It will take you out of your comfort zone.

        You have obviously been severely screwed up by your belief system. Each ranting nutjob that comes here to discuss their out of this world bullshit helps to deconvert other believers. Keep the insanity coming.

        • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

          You are right on, Man has screwed up the faith and belief system for a long time And God Would want you to help make it right. Could you do that for him?

          • Johan

            Those cowardly non-answers are a great tool for deconverting people as well. Odin would want you to die in battle, could you do that for him? See how meaningless that crap is? Keep it up, you set a great example of why believers are so full of shit.

            • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

              God gave salvation to every body and faith to, so trust God. He knows what he is doing.

            • Kodie

              God may know what he is doing, but you’re a poor delivery for his message. Based on your stupidity, I don’t give a fuck about god or what you’re trying to say.

      • Kodie

        Lol, Abraham was asked to sacrifice his child, you know, he was an old man and he waited and waited for a child, and god finally said, you have a child! Then he says, to prove your faith to me, take you out of your comfort zone, per se, smash the kid on a rock, smash him to death, just do it and don’t ask why.

        Fuck?

        Well, god did stop him, didn’t he, but he’s a sick fuck.

        Anyone who believes him is insane.

        • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

          That was alot for one to bear. It had a purpose. If a righteous man could give his only son for faith in God. Then God would have faith in man and give his only son for Man. That’s not evil that is a father’s love for his children.

          • Kodie

            Ok, so you’re sick.

            • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

              I see the words you have written. And if you did not believe in God, You wouldn’t get so personal about it. He has put a great power in us, and he want’s us to use it. So the next time you hear his word like lay hands on the sick and they will recover, You will believe it and you may even do it. Cause it’s a step of faith, and it is just like turning on the TV. You believe it’s going to come on right. Because you were told and you believed in motorola or G&E or who ever made the TV. Take that same belief to God, next time you around some sick folk He did not say pray he said lay your hands on them and they would recover. “oh by the way give yourself some room”

            • Kodie

              You don’t know how cable tv works.

          • trj

            Or maybe Abraham was just afraid that if he didn’t obey God would fuck him up. In fact, the Bible says as much. Gen. 22:12: “… now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”

            • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

              That good Your even reading it right now

          • Johan

            Yes, it had a purpose. It was a story that was used to explain why a subsect of the Canaanite religion no longer practiced human sacrifice. By telling that story they drew a line between what their ancestors believed and the new offshoot.

            And yeah, you are sick. What kind of father did you have that you think that is love?

          • pagansister

            How do you know God is male? That would be because a man invented him. It might be better if folks realized a female being would make a better “divine” leader than a male.

            • TrickQuestion

              Why would god have any sort of gender to begin with?

            • Sunny Day

              Having genitalia feels pretty good, I think everyone should have one.

            • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

              I like that answer Why would god have any sort of gender.

    • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

      Faith = believing something without evidence. It also take’s action Some times. Jesus told cripple man get up and walk did he not. The cripple man could have said, ” I’m cripple I can’t” . Do you see Faith is the thing you use to make this all work. It is a gift from God.

    • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

      There is more than just one way to use Faith.

  • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

    ABRAHAMIC COVENANT based on faith. God said it Abraham believed it. Just like today God said it He did his part

    • Kodie

      If someone said today that god demanded they sacrifice their child, would you believe they heard god or would you be certain god would never tell them anything of the kind?

  • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

    I don’t know, I’m not God. But the Covenant we have now is Grace. But if I had a friend say to me God said do this. I would not let him out of my line of sight. Now I do believe Man miss God on that about 90% of time.

  • Johan

    If a friend told you God spoke to him you wouldn’t let him out of your sight because you would be aware of how out of his mind he was since he is obviously extremely dangerous to those around him. That is the sanest thing you have said yet. You had to couch it in the kind of crazy mumbo jumbo that only works on other nutjobs, but at least you admitted it.

    Keep talking. The more insanity you show the more useful you are at deconverting other believers.

    • Johan

      Dammit I missed the reply button like some crazy person would.

    • WOULDUBELIEVEIT

      What if God told him to go to church and tell people about faith, love, healing, and salvation so that’s crazy to? And the ten comments are good to live by, would that be crazy to? The way you use faith is crazy, one you don’t believe it works, two you think it is a religion and it’s not, and when some tells you different you use it to stay were your at in life, complaining to God how screwed up religion is. Maybe you could step out share The love and the faith and the healing that’s comes from God.

      • http://blog.luigiscorner.com Azel

        One, if he doesn’t know that’s really God who talked ? Yes, that would be crazy. In such a case, there is no difference between “God talks in my head” and “voices born of my illness talk in my head”.

        Two, the Decalogue, good to live by ? You got to be kidding…The first (against polytheism) and second (against icons) are morally neutral. The third (do not take God’s name in vain) is…weird: good in its “do not take vows you won’t endeavour to respect” incarnation, bizarre in its “do not say God’s name” one. The fourth (keep the Sabbath), fifth (honour your parents) and tenth (do not covet) are outright bad : the fourth mandates that everyone take rest at the same time which is a disaster waiting to happen, the fifth is far too general and the tenth is a bloody thought crime. The sixth to the ninth are the only good ones, even if the sixth (do not kill) is too general in its usual Bible incarnation and the others are conditional (e.g. I would hold that as a general rule you should bear false witness, and violate the ninth, to save someone unless said false witness dooms others). And in any case too few are useful to serve as the basis of morality.

        And, seriously, if you want to have a snowball chance in Hell to convince someone, proofread your texts. I understood the “told to preach” and the Decalogue part but the rest was too nonsensical for me to muster an answer.

      • Johan

        What if a god that you don’t believe in told a person to convert all people like you to his religion? In that case you wouldn’t believe his crap, you would just think he was nuts because his god is not your god, which makes all of your nonsense even more nonsensical… and hypocritical. You ask us to treat your religions nonsense in a way that you would never consider treating some other religion’s nonsense.

        You are a hypocrite, plain and simple. You demand of others something that you would not do yourself. I’m not sure what your education level is (I assume quite low based on your inability to properly communicate) but even an idiot can grasp that simple point. YOU don’t believe faith works unless it is your faith. No other, only yours. It’s that simple. You are a hypocrite.


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