Ray Comfort is Still an Idiot

Honestly, how does somebody that stupid remember how to breathe?

  • Lurker111

    I understand Ray Comfort took a boat trip once and committed a piscatorial act right under the American Flag!

    (Thx to MAD Magazine, ca. 1968.)

  • Patrick

    Wow, he encountered a word he’d never seen before.
    WHAT AN IDIOT FOR NOT KNOWING THAT WORD.

    • BabyRaptor

      No, the issue is that he jumped into Project Like You’re Showing Off Powerpoint mode by assuming that the person was insulting him (Atheist insult? Really?) instead of taking two seconds to google the word.

      Not only is he unfamiliar with common words, he has a persecution complex the size of the US and he openly brags about it. And millions of people listen to this man for advice on how to live their lives.

      People who make their living insulting others shouldn’t get butthurt when someone calls them out. Yet this man gets off on it. And then he accuses innocent people of persecuting him more because he can’t take two seconds of time to educate himself.

      • Custador

        Fucking hive-mind :-)

        • BabyRaptor

          That was awesome. I think one of us owes the other a coke!

    • Custador

      No, you tit, what an idiot for responding to that word with anger despite having no clue what it meant. That conversation is on Facebook. Which is on the internet. The internet also features a magical thing called Google. He could have looked it up before he responded. He could have not been so ignorant and uneducated that he would have actually known a simple, common, everyday piece of Latin and not just assumed that anything ending in “ophile” refers to child abuse.

      And you could have thought of all of that for yourself instead of jumping straight in with stupid snark.

      • http://themikewrites.blogspot.com JohnMWhite

        I’m sorry, like Comfort’s position and the Biblical passages quoted, defending Ray Comfort and thinking for oneself are mutually exclusive.

      • David Hart

        everyday piece of Latin

        Classical Greek, actually. Sorry, but pedants’ honour demands it :-)

        • Custador

          I stand corrected :-)

          • Michael

            If a word has a ‘ph’ in it, you can be pretty confident it is Greek in origin. In this case, “biblios” is also Greek (Latin for book is “liber”).

            • Elemenope

              My favorite example for no reason whatsoever is phthalate.

            • wintermute

              So that would make you a phthalophile?

            • http://theotherweirdo.wordpress.com The Other Weirdo

              phthalate: I learnt a new word today. I don’t when I would ever use in a sentence, but it never hurts.

            • Michael

              phthalo- is actually a frequently-seen prefix in organic chemistry. In English at least, the ph is silent (except in compounds like naphthalene).

            • Myxini

              related to organic chemistry, it’s also frequently used in the names of artists pigments based on phthalocyanin dyes, typically phthalo blue or phthalo green.

      • Hitchslapper

        No one ever accused Ray Comfort of being Smart……..

    • vorjack

      Not knowing the word is one thing – although how do you go through life and never hear anyone mention the “gentle madness”?

      No being able to piece together the sense of the word is another thing. “Bible” and “biblio” have the same root, and “-phile” is used so commonly that it should be obvious. “Anglophile” is not in related to “pedophile.”

      Finally, leaping to the conclusion that the word is a sexual insult … well, it says a lot about the mindset of the writer, doesn’t it?

  • Igor

    He was once seen masticating in a cafeteria right in front of children!

    • machintelligence

      There are even rumors that he once matriculated at a university as well.

      • Custador

        I sincerely doubt that one.

        • trj

          Yeah, you gotta give Ray some credit. At least he never did that.

      • carlos

        And there’s a rumor that his sister is a thespian! And that she has acute angina.
        And that he acts niggardly, and engages in formication and exacerbation.

      • http://theotherweirdo.wordpress.com The Other Weirdo

        I hear here is niggardly with reason.

        • Hitchslapper

          Would you guys, please….. stop using all these big dirty words…. I’m getting so excited! You know of course, that sexual acts for these people are only for procreation. Joyful sex is a ‘SIN’ to these people. Look at your neighbor’s wife…. and you’ve already committed adultery, ya know………

  • Artor

    Ray comfort is directly responsible for a disastrous shortage of palms & faces. There are not nearly enough available to express an appropriate reaction to Comfort’s spectacular idiocy. Wow.

    • Michael

      A shortage? Pshaw! Ray Comfort unified the palm and the face.

  • http://themikewrites.blogspot.com JohnMWhite

    Yes, yes, it’s all very funny and somewhat alarming that somebody in his position is so profoundly ignorant, but what I find interesting is that he was willing to apologise. The vast majority of the time I see the dafter party in situations like this feel they have no choice but to double-down and get peculiarly aggressive, or at best ignore/delete the comment that makes them look so stupid. I suppose he deserves props (perhaps movie props, like a plastic banana) for his willingness to admit he was wrong.

    Of course he did use this misunderstanding of his to completely ignore the actual point presented to him, that he is blatantly inconsistent with the bible he espouses. So he’s still a duplicitous cretin who worships an infantile and abhorrent childgod. I’m also not entirely sure he registered the actual insult levied at him.

    On another note, not remotely related to the love of books, I’ve seen a lot of people bandying about the idea that anybody remaining steadfast with the Catholic church supports paedophilia. Just wondering what people think of that. Is it an unfair characterisation or have we reached the point where burying your head in the sand is no excuse?

    • Nox

      Blame isn’t as important as solutions. Figuring out whose fault it is only ever matters because it can be a useful step in preventing other bad things from happening. What matters more is that we have reached the point where we can conclusively say burying your head in the sand isn’t helpful and those who are still doing it should stop.

      If it matters to judge the individuals, I would say most catholics don’t even know about the pederasty in the church. Those who do know of it are doing everything they can to pretend it isn’t happening (or blame it on the traditional scapegoats). But I haven’t seen any who openly consider it a good thing.

      So if we’re talking about ‘support’ in the sense of ‘approve ‘ it is a completely unfair characterization.

      From a practical standpoint it’s still kind of accurate. The catholic church draws its power to f*ck up the world from three main sources. The entrenchment in society of christianity/catholicism as a respected institution (with all the god=morality baggage that entails), money, and the number of catholic voters.

      If someone gives money to the catholic church (whether they know about it or not), they are helping the catholic church do whatever it wants to do (this includes some very unhelpful things).

      If someone is on the baptismal rolls of the catholic church (whether they chose to be or not), their names are being used to justify whatever the church wants to justify (as well as pressuring lawmakers in heavily catholic districts).

      Lay catholics do not choose the actions of their church. In not all cases do they even choose to be catholic. And not judging one person for the actions of another seems like a good general rule. Someone would have to do a lot more than go to mass on Easter before I would consider it just to personally accuse them of supporting the molestation of children. But the sad mathematical reality of the situation is, some greater number of children are going to be raped by priests because all those well meaning innocent people went to Easter Mass a couple days ago.

      Whether they know it or not, whether it is their fault or not, whether they would characterize their own position as ‘supporting pedophilia’ or not, anyone who still remains in the catholic church is supporting unaccountable leaders and helping to keep them unaccountable. That’s what caused this problem in the first place.

      • DMG

        Just wanted to say, I think that’s a great answer, Nox. Fair, balanced, thoughtful, honest. :)
        I might borrow some of these ideas. Thanks!

        • Nox

          Thank you DMG.

    • Custador

      No, I don’t think that’s unfair at all. Particularly not after the news this week about a Catholic church in Missouri. At this point I think that if you’re a religious Catholic who attends Mass and gives the church money, then you are fooling yourself if you don’t think you’re enabling an organisation of paedophiles and international paedophile enablers.

      • alfaretta

        Let’s see how this one develops. A quote from your article:

        “Four computers seized in the raid will be analyzed to determine if they were used to download the illegal material from a peer-to-peer network. It is possible, however, that outside computers accessed the wireless network because it was not password protected. ”

        It would surprise no one if it turns out it was someone in the parish doing the downloading. It shouldn’t be surprising, however, if someone else in the neighborhood thought it would be fun to download child porn from the church’s unsecured network.

        • http://theotherweirdo.wordpress.com The Other Weirdo

          There is, of course, a third possibility: someone at the church purposely disabled the encryption of their wi-fi specifically for this situation.

    • MNb

      I’ll send Mr. Comfort a bunch of these:

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/astridsibbes/3372747182/

      as I live in Suriname. Do you think he will repeat his famous act with one of them?

  • Reginald Selkirk

    In 2000, in South Wales, this happened.

    Scrawled in white paint all over the windows of her rented house in the village of St Brides was the word “Paedo”. She found it almost impossible to believe that vigilantes could have mistaken her, a paediatrician, for a paedophile.

    To the best of my knowledge, Ray Comfort was not involved.

    • wintermute

      I remember that. Most notable becuase Private Eye had used that exact scenario as a joke just a week or two earlier.

      Can’t find it on Google, though…

  • C Tran

    I’m giving Comfort a pass on this. He obviously thought he knew what it meant, he was wrong, and he apologized right away. He did exactly the right thing given the circumstance. So please let’s leave it alone.

    • Custador

      Um…. No.

  • thin-ice

    Hmmm. A full-time New Testament apologist who doesn’t even know Greek, and that “-phile” is derived from one of the Greek words for “love”, philos? Respect him for admitting he was wrong? A lukewarm “yes”, but he had no other choice but to admit he was wrong, did he? And I give him NO respect for not having a basic knowledge of the NT’s manuscript language.

    • Jabster

      Giving respect (even lukewarm) to Comfort for this is like giving respect to Harold Shipman for holding the door open for you … it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if he was deliberately trying to provoke an insulting post so he could point out how ‘nasty’ atheists are.

      Then again that still didn’t stop him getting a side swipe in his ‘apology’ though did it?

      • kessy_athena

        @Jabster: Why of course, why would anyone even consider giving respect of any kind to anyone who dares question the all knowing Jabster? Just treat them like the subhuman filth they are, right?

        @thin-ice: Don’t be silly, of course he had a choice. Most ideologues will never admit they’re wrong about anything, no matter how idiotic they look denying it. They generally define their sense of self worth and self identity in terms of being Right. There are tons of examples readily at hand. So this fellow fails epically for ignorance, but still manages to save a point or two of partial credit for a smidgen of grace and common sense. It may not be much, but it’s something.

        • Jabster

          @Kessy

          Yes of course Kessy … I’m presuming you know as much about Comfort as you do about Chopra – do I feel an yet another argument ad google coming on? Not that knowing bugger all seems to stop you insisting that you’re right.

          Maybe I don’t have any respect for Comfort as I’m a racist. You tell me as you seem to be the mind reader aroud here.

        • http://scotteriology.wordpress.com/ Scott Bailey

          “Most ideologues will never admit they’re wrong about anything”

          Yes, just see all of Kessy’s discussions for a shining example of this practice.

          • kessy_athena

            You surprise me, Scott – I was expecting the inevitable “I know you are but what am I?” from Jabster. And no, “ideologue” does not mean “Someone who doesn’t accept the Truth, as revealed to Scott Bailey.”

            No, Jabster, I know less about Comfort then I do about Chopra – I’ve never heard of Comfort outside of this post. I was commenting solely on the contents of this post, and nothing else about Comfort, and have no intention of saying anything else about the guy.

            Where’s racism come into this?

            • Sunny Day

              That would be the time you referred to either the people in the thread or maybe it was specifically the person you were addressing with the hyperbolic insult of racism about only western beliefs are allowed/approved in the Venn Diagram car crash thread.

              You were called out on it by the responder and then Jabby specifically mentioned it in a reply to you again. That you ignored it twice only to ask about it now should surprise me but no not really. Again it was kind of what I meant about your words being up there for everyone to read.

            • Custador

              Google the Ray Comfort banana video. It will shed light.

            • Jabster

              “No, Jabster, I know less about Comfort then I do about Chopra – I’ve never heard of Comfort outside of this post.”

              So let me get this straight you know absolutely nothing about him yet your opinion about what I said about him is still correct – yep that makes perfect sense.

              Exactly which planet do you come from as it sounds like a really fucked up place?”No, Jabster, I know less about Comfort then I do about Chopra – I’ve never heard of Comfort outside of this post.”

              So let me get this straight you know absolutely nothing about him yet

            • Jabster

              @Sunny D

              Not sure what’s funnier – doing the I know nothing about the person but you’re the stupidhead twice in one week or being completely oblivious (maybe selectively) to the racist comment. Am I surprised, no not really after all this is the same person who’s best argument in the field on quantum mechanics is you’re only saying that as you don’t want to deal with the fact that the universe is random in nature.

            • Sunny Day

              Jabster, I think the boot is in.

              I hope I used that phrase correctly.

            • Jabster

              @Sunny D

              Possibly if I knew what you meant … :-)

              p.s Personally I’m just happy she hasn’t compared me to a Nazi again … I don’t think the forum thread was even a full page before she went full Godwin. Never go full Godwin that early.

              p.p.s Would you like your stalker back now?

            • kessy_athena

              @Custy – I think I might be getting desensitized to right wing stupidity due to everything that’s been going on here in the US the last few years – the banana video merely struck me as mildly amusing… Can I have a visa to visit the sane part of the world, please? LOL

              @Sunny – I must have missed the reply in the Venn diagram thread. sorry, but that does happen sometimes. And I generally ignore Jabster unless I feel like playing Poke the Troll and Watch ‘im Jabber. However, I wasn’t being hyperbolic in the least – it is racist to believe that anything that doesn’t come from the Western tradition must automatically be woo.

              If someone were to say, “I hate Jazz and all that horrible black music,” that would pretty clearly be racist, right?

              Also if someone were to say, “All music that’s not from the Western tradition is crap and not worth listening to,” right?

              So then how would saying, “Any ideas or natural philosophy that’s not from the Western tradition is crap and not worth even considering,” not be racist?

              Now, no, of course it’s not anywhere near being on a par with the Klan or Apartheid or things like that. It’s a soft sort of racism, but it’s still racism and it’s still ugly and for the most part anyone reading this blog prolly ought to know better.

              Please keep in mind that there is a difference between a particular procedure, concept, or drug that has actually been studied properly and determined to be ineffective and rejecting all non Western ideas as a whole without bothering to understand them individually. It’s the difference between saying that a particular black man who’s been tried and convicted is a criminal and saying that all black men are criminals. And of course the whole thing can get very murky very fast – two people can take the same position on a particular question, one based on facts, one based on racism, for example. A bad argument can be advanced motivated by racism, but then taken up by others who are convinced by it without realizing the racist aspect or motivation. And so on and so on.

            • Michael

              Guise, while it is true that kessy is a self-righteous idiot, I feel like we only pushed her further to that extreme. It is well-known that when you have a strong opinion–even if it is poorly-supported–it will only become stronger in the face of adversity.

              I think kessy’s admission that she didn’t know what she was talking about (while simultaneously claiming she still knew better about some specific point, whether the integrity of Ray Comfort or the nondeterministic nature of quantum mechanics) is a clear example of this.

              I predict that she will now be unable to admit she was wrong, and thus be shoehorned into bad ideas “forever” (i.e. until she forgets about us). Hopefully I am proven wrong.

              In case you are reading, kessy (there’s a first time for everything), an apology over the racism thing would be a good start.

            • Sunny Day

              OMG, please don’t explain to me how you justify calling people racists. It must be even more exhausting for you to stuff words into peoples mouths and then castigate them for it than it is for me to read it. It’s simply exasperating to see someone reply to you and then you respond to them as if they said something completely different.

              @Jabby, No.

            • Sunny Day

              ps, Jabby at least you got an admission.

            • Jabster

              @Sunny D

              … are you sure. Don’t make me come over there and take your beans.

            • kessy_athena

              @Michael: I freely apologize when I make mistakes or when one is due. Why would one be due in this case? Because I called you out on bad behavior? Sorry, that’s your problem, not mine. If you want an apology then show me that I’m wrong – a good place to start would be to answer the question: how is it not racist to say that any ideas or natural philosophy that’s not from the Western tradition is crap and not worth even considering?

              As for admitting the limits of my knowledge, in a contest between you and Socrates, I’m going with Socrates. “The Delphic oracle said I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing.”

              @Sunny: I thought you were asking about why I said that dismissing everything not from the West is racist, so I explained my position in detail. If that’s not what you meant, what were you asking?

            • Nox

              “How is it not racist to say that any ideas or natural philosophy that’s not from the Western tradition is crap and not worth even considering?”

              Did anyone ever actually say that?

            • kessy_athena

              No, Nox, not to my knowledge. I’m saying that I think the attitude is racist, not accusing any particular person. There were a few comments that seemed to me to imply some thing along those lines, whether intentionally or not, so I wanted to point out where that road leads.

            • Yoav

              There were a few comments that seemed to me to imply some thing along those lines, whether intentionally or not, so I wanted to point out where that road leads.

              You were the only one who made any comment implying anything like that and then conveniently ignored when it was pointed to you that the diagram contained types of woo invented by white Europeans as well.

            • kessy_athena

              @Yoav – You know better then that. Saying that everything not from the Western tradition is woo is completely different from saying that nothing from the Western tradition is woo.

            • Nox

              Where does the “western/eastern tradition” distinction enter the equation?

            • Michael

              For the third time, the large majority of the entries in the diagram are Western. So if there is any clear “bias” one way or the other, it is anti-Western (though personally I just think there are more Western entries because the diagram was made by Westerners for a Western audience).

              The one unifying feature of all the entries is not that they are non-white, but that they are irrational nonsense. Nobody but you has said anything about “Western” vs. “Eastern” tradition (itself a problematic distinction).

              You can’t just go around calling people racists because of your first (uninformed) impression. Nobody said, for instance, that acupuncture doesn’t work because it is Eastern. That’s just yet another strawman. And you did see the relevant replies, you just ignored the parts that called you out on that outrageous claim.

            • Yoav

              @Yoav – You know better then that. Saying that everything not from the Western tradition is woo is completely different from saying that nothing from the Western tradition is woo.

              No one said anything that even resemble this anywhere on that tread, it was you who latched into the fact that some , not all (a point you ignored even after it was pointed to you and that you keep ignoring here), of the forms of woo in the diagram were invented by eastern traditions to make the claim of racism.

            • kessy_athena

              @Nox: It’s not a western / eastern distinction, it’s a western / everybody else on the planet distinction. And it depends on which equation you’re talking about. It has nothing at all to do with Ray Comfort. Sunny asked me earlier in this thread about something I said in the Venn Diagram of Irrational Nonsense thread here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2013/03/the-venn-diagram-of-irrational-nonsense/#comment-817013

              @Michael & Yoav: Has it occurred to the two of you just how angry, defensive, and frankly desperate you’re making yourselves sound? The level of intellectual dishonesty and purposeful stupidity you’re displaying here would make an Evangelical blush. and has it occurred to you how bad you’re making yourselves and atheism in general look, or how good you’re making Ray Comfort look in comparison? He may say dumb stuff, but at least he’s honest about it. And has it occurred to you how much you’re making it sound like you both have a guilty conscious? You should both be ashamed and embarrassed.

              You think I’m wrong? Fine, I respect that, even if I find your arguments less then rigorous. You don’t like me? I respect that too. What I say makes you mad? That’s your right. But pretending you’re too stupid to understand the difference between the idea that anything non-Western is automatically woo and the idea that nothing Western is woo; that I have absolutely no respect for. Frankly it’s a transparent lie – you’ve both shown you’re smarter then that in the past. I’m really disappointed in both of you – I thought you had more integrity and self respect then that. and if you’re furious at reading all this, you should be. but not at me – you should be furious at yourselves. Are you really so desperate to avoid admitting to any sort of error, no matter how small, that you’ll disgrace yourselves this badly?

              As I’ve stated several times already, my position is that holding that anything that isn’t from the Western tradition is automatically woo and not worth consideration is racist. A position that neither of you have directly addressed, by the way. Whether or not you consider some things from the Western tradition woo is completely irrelevant, and you both know it. What you’re essentially saying is, “I’m not racist – I hate some white people in addition to everyone else in the world.” If you’re not going to argue with my basic point but still feel the need to defend yourselves from the charge of racism, may I suggest that the simplest way to do so is to point out things that aren’t from the Western tradition that you don’t think are woo?

            • Bill

              Kessy is starting to remind me of Ignatius J. Reilly.

              (This is the second time a poster here has reminded me of Mr. Reilly.)

            • Sunny Day

              Puny Mortals! Your feeble threats are nothing to Skullmaster, Master of Skulls.

              http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=2346

            • Yoav

              @Michael & Yoav: Has it occurred to the two of you just how angry, defensive, and frankly desperate you’re making yourselves sound? The level of intellectual dishonesty and purposeful stupidity you’re displaying here would make an Evangelical blush. and has it occurred to you how bad you’re making yourselves and atheism in general look, or how good you’re making Ray Comfort look in comparison? He may say dumb stuff, but at least he’s honest about it. And has it occurred to you how much you’re making it sound like you both have a guilty conscious? You should both be ashamed and embarrassed.

              What planet are you on for fucksake?
              ,

              You think I’m wrong? Fine, I respect that, even if I find your arguments less then rigorous. You don’t like me? I respect that too. What I say makes you mad? That’s your right. But pretending you’re too stupid to understand the difference between the idea that anything non-Western is automatically woo and the idea that nothing Western is woo; that I have absolutely no respect for. Frankly it’s a transparent lie – you’ve both shown you’re smarter then that in the past. I’m really disappointed in both of you – I thought you had more integrity and self respect then that. and if you’re furious at reading all this, you should be. but not at me – you should be furious at yourselves. Are you really so desperate to avoid admitting to any sort of error, no matter how small, that you’ll disgrace yourselves this badly?

              Neither me nor anyone else have made any claim that can even remotely be understood as saying anything non western is automatically woo.

              As I’ve stated several times already, my position is that holding that anything that isn’t from the Western tradition is automatically woo and not worth consideration is racist. A position that neither of you have directly addressed, by the way.

              That’s because you were the only one who made this claim.

              Whether or not you consider some things from the Western tradition woo is completely irrelevant, and you both know it. What you’re essentially saying is, “I’m not racist – I hate some white people in addition to everyone else in the world.”

              Again, you were the only one who made the distinction between western and non western stuff. If it’s unsupported fuzzy magical nonsense it’s woo, regardless of who made it up.

              If you’re not going to argue with my basic point but still feel the need to defend yourselves from the charge of racism, may I suggest that the simplest way to do so is to point out things that aren’t from the Western tradition that you don’t think are woo?

              Your basic point started as idiotic and went down from there, you’re clearly not willing or capable of addressing the actual point instead of the one you made up which mean any further discussion with you is a waste of time.

            • Michael

              Let me be absolutely clear: the wooiness of an idea bears no apparent relation to its country of origin.

              Please give one example of anyone on this site suggesting otherwise.

              If you cannot, please apologize for calling us racists.

            • kessy_athena

              And anything that isn’t an official It’s Scientific! (TM) branded product is automatically unsupported fuzzy magical nonsense (any actual evidence or data being irrelevant). Of course it’s entirely coincidental that all the wholesome righteous ingredients that go into those It’s Scientific! (TM) products only come from the Western tradition. It’s a huge coincidence, isn’t it amazing?

              What planet do I come from? The real world – you might want to try visiting some time. Then you might realize that you woo warriors are not only failing to discredit actual frauds and con artists, you’re giving them cover by lumping them in with legitimate stuff like acupuncture. You’re also actively harming real science by attacking anyone who dares stray from your orthodoxy. If you can’t consider all possibilities, you can’t do real science. No real science, no hard data. No hard data, no real conclusions, one way or the other. You’re like Grover Norquist, trying to push science into ideology and away from actually accomplishing anything.

            • Jabster

              @Sunny D

              Well those seven bags of popcorn didn’t last long … must get the extra, extra large size next time.

              Well I was wrong in one respect I didn’t think even kessy would be stupid enough to use the racist tag again but no, pile in there with more comments of racism and this time direct them actually at people. Waves at Michael and Yoav, don’t worry she thinks I’m a Nazi so by definition I’m also a racist :-)

              It’s been an interesting ‘debate’ style so far which seems to consist of trying to change the subject to one which although superficial related basically is not the same at all – I always think it’s useful to counter what somebody has said not something you just made up. You just as well argue that you’re a racist unless you can name one Eastern god you believe in. Still that’s not the key point and that’s why she’s desperately trying to change to this point so as a deflect away from what she originally said.

              To cap it all we have the accusations of being dishonest and an embarrassment to the atheist community but paired with the ‘olive branch’ of having been smarter than that – it’s just so transparent.

              What will happen next, well I thought she might just try and drop the subject and hope it would go away but she’s far to pig headed to do that (note the QM debate – even being flat out wrong hasn’t stopped that one) so I’d expect more twisting of words and arguing about things that weren’t said until everybody gives up and she has the last post proving that’s she’s right!

              p.s As you said her words are up there for every one to read …

            • Michael

              Of course it’s entirely coincidental that all the wholesome righteous ingredients that go into those It’s Scientific! (TM) products only come from the Western tradition.

              You have surpassed condescension and are heading toward blatant racism yourself, claiming that all mainstream science is Western. Let me tell you a secret: neither Western nor Eastern “tradition” is scientific. Science is about 400 years old, and the fact that the scientific revolution began in Europe is no more important than the fact that writing first developed in the Near East. But science is NOT “Western,” it is merely modern, and there are both scientific discoveries and unscientific bullshit everywhere on Earth.

              If the real reason you have accused me of racism is that I trust science, then you are hopeless.

              If you can’t consider all possibilities, you can’t do real science. No real science, no hard data. No hard data, no real conclusions, one way or the other.

              Well, we showed you the “hard data” in several meta-analyses, and explained in pretty frank terms why your “sources” were crap. You haven’t even gone through the trouble of presenting a single recent study. Yet you still have the nerve to accuse us of ignoring the data. If the science won’t convince you, what the fuck ever will?

            • Jabster

              @Sunny D

              … oh, one thing I can see happening is the you’re a racist but don’t realise you are so I’m still right. There’s been a few hints in her posts that this is the next direction she might take.

              One last thought … isn’t it weird that she never mentioned any of this is the original thread. You’d almost think that she was just making stuff up post event in a desperate attempt to prove herself right.

              … ermmm, salted pop corn … my favourite.

            • kessy_athena

              @Micheal – you don’t trust science, you believe in the label. You blatantly twist or ignore evidence when it goes against your ideology. Your idea of showing that my sources are crap is saying that the NIH, WHO, and NHS don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to medicine? Get real, the real and only reason you think they’re crap is simply because they don’t say what you want them to. Science – real science – will most certainly convince me. “Look, it says the word ‘sham’, that means I was right all along!” is not science. It’s not even bad science. It’s just BS.

              As Custy pointed out a little while ago, large parts of modern Western medicine are primarily about tradition, not evidence. But that’s okay, because Western medicine has the It’s Scientific! (TM) sticker on it. In China, the medical profession treats their traditions just as rigorously as western medicine treats our traditions, but that’s all complete woo, and you don’t even have to learn anything about it to know because it doesn’t have a It’s Scientific! (TM) sticker. And of course, the fact that there aren’t any of those stickers in China at all is again, pure coincidence.

              You woo warriors are exactly like Christian fundies – you’re so convinced you’re Right that you can’t even see the evidence when you’re wrong. Your subconscious just edits it out for you. (Actually, that’s an assumption I’m making to give you the benefit of the doubt – it’s also entirely possible you’re simply deliberately lying for Science.)

            • Sunny Day

              Jabster, this kinda reminds me of a Family Guy episode where they repeat the same joke an insane amount of times. It starts funny for the first two or three repetitions and then becomes less and less funny the more times its repeated one after another. About midway through you start wondering if its ever going to end and you start getting annoyed. Finally irritated beyond any bounds of reasonable sufferance it breaks through to the other side and becomes funnier than it ever was before.
              Maybe Kessy is trying that. I’ll have to look for some webcomics that mention tripling or quadrupling down.

              At least she got what she wanted. People are speaking up and not allowing 1 person to set the tone of the community. Though, I don’t think being told she’s batshit was the outcome she expected.

            • Alex

              @ Sunny Day

              I lollled. I immediately thought of Negative Temperature from that analogy. Which is also awesome.

              If you’re scientifically curious:

              Yup, negative Absolute Temperature, in Kelvin. Look it up on wikipedia. I visited a lab that analyzed negative temperature systems once. Their machines were Awesommmme! Also their papers were mind-blowing.

              If you’re not scientifically curious:

              shuttup

            • Michael

              Your idea of showing that my sources are crap is saying that the NIH, WHO, and NHS don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to medicine?

              You know that that was not the argument I presented. You know it. You must know it, because we just had this fucking discussion, and my words are there.

              My arguments were:
              1. Your sources were all old.
              2. One of your “sources” was a two-paragraph summary of acupuncture citing no studies.
              3. Two of your sources stated that acupuncture was not more effective than a placebo, or that many scientists believed this was the case.
              4. All of your sources stated that there was insufficient evidence.
              5. None of your sources cited blinded controlled studies.

              But I don’t want to get into this debate again over here. I just want to point out how badly you mischaracterize my arguments. You have done this consistently and intentionally at least for the past ten days, and I suspect much longer. You need to realize that when your responses never address my arguments, you have no good evidence, everybody says your arguments suck and that you are wrong, this isn’t because there is some great conspiracy against you. It’s because you are fucking wrong, and have demonstrated that you cannot deal with it.

              In China, the medical profession treats their traditions just as rigorously as western medicine treats our traditions, but that’s all complete woo, and you don’t even have to learn anything about it to know because it doesn’t have a It’s Scientific! (TM) sticker.

              I do not think science is woo in China any more than it is here. There is no “American science” and “Chinese science,” there is merely science, which is universal and demonstrable. Yes, Chinese are more apt to prescribe acupuncture, but then Americans are more apt to prescribe chiropractic; that doesn’t mean that either of these is based on sound science. I don’t know why you are so determined to somehow make this about racism, but this is getting pathetic.

              You woo warriors are exactly like Christian fundies – you’re so convinced you’re Right that you can’t even see the evidence when you’re wrong. Your subconscious just edits it out for you.

              Project much?

            • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

              @kessy- You still don’t seem to get it. Nobody thinks that the woo stuff doesn’t work because it’s “non-Western”. We* think it doesn’t work because the method given for why it works is “it’s magic!”. That is not a credible action mechanism. Traditional, non-Western methods that do work become part of the scientific standard.

              Cinchona for malaria? Totally works. We got quinine from it. Willow bark for fevers and headaches? Totally works. We got aspirin from it. There are a ton of traditional herbal remedies that do work, and we do then refine the active ingredients into more standardized and pure doses. There’s also a ton of herbal remedies that don’t work, but we don’t disregard ‘traditional medicine’ just because it’s non-Western. Heck, we have even gone back to (sterile, lab-bred) maggots for treating necrotic tissue! However, when something “works” by realigning your internal energies, and people simply don’t have internal energy like that, then … yeah, time to toss that one on the scrap heap, especially if RCT studies show it doesn’t work.

              *Forgive me for speaking for you, Michael, Yoav, Nox, and others. Feel free to disagree with me and/or tell me I don’t get to speak for you!

            • kessy_athena

              @Micheal:
              1. Your sources were all old.

              Ah, yes, because major national and international organizations put out in depth reviews on every conceivable subject every few weeks for your convenience. All my citations were the most up to date material from the NIH, WHO, and NHS.

              2. One of your “sources” was a two-paragraph summary of acupuncture citing no studies.

              That’s an outright lie. That’s like claiming that Unreasonable Faith is five brief posts on random subjects with no discussion or forum. You only looked at the front page and never bothered to look at the rest of the site.

              3. Two of your sources stated that acupuncture was not more effective than a placebo, or that many scientists believed this was the case.

              That’s another outright lie – those sources were talking about RCT’s that don’t even use placebos in the first place. And you can only make the claim that “many” scientists believed that acupuncture was no better then a placebo by taking quotes out of context, deliberately misinterpreting terminology, and completely ignoring the explicitly stated conclusions of those scientists.

              4. All of your sources stated that there was insufficient evidence.

              All of my sources stated that there were many unanswered questions and more research is needed, but there is sufficient evidence to conclude that acupuncture does work for at least some conditions, such as lower back pain.

              5. None of your sources cited blinded controlled studies.

              They cited RCT’s, which is the standard way of assessing medical procedures.

              On second thought, perhaps you have a point and I was misrepresenting your argument. Your arguments seem to consist of nothing but outright lies, strawmen, and twisting and manipulating sources to make them say what you want instead of what they actually say.

              @M – that’s a load of garbage. There are tons of treatments in Western medicine whose action mechanisms are poorly understood or not understood at all. But that’s okay, because they have those It’s Scientific! (TM) labels on them. Stick an “energy” label on them instead and suddenly they’re woo and bollocks. So does that mean you think Energizer batteries are a fraud? They say “energy” on them, after all.

              And what in the world makes you think that all traditional remedies from every culture around the world have already been thoroughly investigated and tested? The system in the US is set up mainly around big pharma and medical companies being able to patent products and make tons of money off of them. (That’s not to say that’s an inherently bad thing, but the pros and cons of the system are really beyond the scope of this discussion.) It’s often said that aspirin would never make it to market today; you can’t patent willow bark. (Incidentally, Hippocrates himself talked about the use of willow bark – that’s about as firmly in the western tradition as you can get.) Only a small fraction of all traditional medicine from around the world has been thoroughly scientifically investigated, yet you still automatically dismiss it all as woo and only an idiot would actually look at it.

              Incidentally, translating chi as strictly being some sort of mystical life energy is quite incorrect. A better translation would be “vital or biological fluid.” The term can be used to refer to a life energy, it can also be used to refer to things like blood and urine. But then a good woo warrior like you won’t let a little thing like facts deter you from your crusade to rid the world of wrong thinking, will you?

            • Michael

              Oh ffs, I said I didn’t want to get back into this argument. If you don’t even know what a placebo is, how can we have this discussion?

              I’ll pare it down to one question:

              All of my sources stated that there were many unanswered questions and more research is needed, but there is sufficient evidence to conclude that acupuncture does work for at least some conditions, such as lower back pain.

              Where do any of them say in no uncertain terms that we can conclude acupuncture is effective? Not that it may be effective, not that some studies have produced positive results, not that there is “reasonably good” but controversial evidence, but that we can conclude it is effective–for any condition?

              Because that is what you are claiming they say.

            • Jimmy Russles

              kessy has no idea what she’s talking about. Apparently the fact that Hippocrates AND the Chinese used Willow Bark makes Willow Bark “as firmly in the western tradition as you can get.” woman logic and retard lies. why are you even arguing with her? she believes in quack pseudoscience. she’s probably a creationist lunatic. and she can’t fucking read the websites she links to. Accupuncture is a PLACEBO! The only thing jamming chopsticks up your ass will treat is impacted stool. i’d take homeopathy and FLAT EARTH THEORY first. literally a thread full of men yelling at bigfoot bitch to shut up and grow a comment cent, and stop claiming eastern medicine as anything other than Irrational Nonsense. She “blatently twists words into lies,” her words. If she wants to treat her cancer with PINS and WATER…

            • Custador

              What in the fuck makes you think it’s okay to use a phrase like “woman logic” here or anywhere else? Seriously, what in the fuck, man?

            • kessy_athena

              @Micheal:

              “Oh ffs, I said I didn’t want to get back into this argument.”

              Then don’t make blatantly false statements about it. Outright dishonesty is something I have a pretty low tolerance for.

              “Where do any of them say in no uncertain terms that we can conclude acupuncture is effective? Not that it may be effective, not that some studies have produced positive results, not that there is “reasonably good” but controversial evidence, but that we can conclude it is effective–for any condition?

              Because that is what you are claiming they say.”

              No, that’s not what I’m claiming. In fact, that’s an impossible claim. Nothing is effective for any condition. Heart surgery isn’t going to cure a broken leg, aspirin won’t cure cancer, and nothing cures stupid. And what I actually said (and you quoted immediately before blatantly twisting my words) was, ” There is sufficient evidence to conclude that acupuncture does work for at least some conditions.” You’ll notice the “some” in there?

              Furthermore, what scientist is ever going to give a completely unqualified conclusion about anything? Not an honest one. You are demanding absolute proof (or something quite close to it) in a field that does not ever claim such proof for anything. There is no treatment in all of modern medicine that could pass the standard you are trying to set for acupuncture. You are trying to define the question to make you automatically win. That’s both intellectually lazy and dishonest. And you really no longer have any room to complain about strawmen or shifting goalposts ever.

            • kessy_athena

              @Jimmy Russles:

              ROFLMAO, so what exactly makes you think I’m a woman, Mr Misogyny?

            • Yoav

              Jimmy Russles I’m with kessy on this one, while I always assumed the handle represent a female (since I associate the name kessy as a female name) this has absolutely nothing to do with the validity or invalidity of the arguments which should stand or fall on their own merits. And BTW none of kessy’s argument was even remotly as stupid and unsubstantiated, as well as reek of religious superstition, as your claim that women are somehow intrinsically less logical then men.

            • Jabster

              @Sunny D

              I think we’re at the funnier than it’s ever been stage …

              As predicted kessy (for it is she) is going for the change the subject and hope that everybody gets so pissed off they stop speaking to her so that she can prove she’s right.

              Ho hum … what’s the betting than Jimmy Russles (that well know internet meme) is just her distraction to take deflect from the point that she’s called many people racists without justification – I’ve got as much evidence for that as for Bigfoot exists so that should be fine in her mind. Well except for the racist part it’s pretty clear that she did that.

              At this point I’m not sure whether she’s just trolling or is as thick as Hugh Hefner’s extra luxurious shag pile carpet that he keeps in front of his open fire for those special occasions.

            • Bill

              This whole discussion lacks “theology and geometry.”

            • Michael

              I started reading your comment, kessy, but when I saw that you evidently don’t know the difference between “any” and “every,” I stopped reading there.

              This debate is mildly amusing, but a waste of my time.

            • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

              Oh for fuck’s sake kessy, stop that. The term “energy” has different meanings in different contexts, and I will not stoop to arguing about the context in which I used the term for your convenience.

              No, not all herbal remedies have been scientifically tested. A surprisingly high number have been, especially recently. Most of them … don’t work for the conditions they’re advertised as treating. So all herbal claims fall into the “possible but requires additional evidence” category. You’ll note that ‘herbal’ is in fact region non-specific, because I don’t care where something comes from. I care if it works. Chiropractors and reiki and acupuncture and homeopathy all fall into the very same category of BS; I assure you, their region of origin matters not one bit to why they got to that place. Acupuncture actually falls less in that category than the others- at least it has some possibility of being useful, though we haven’t really seen it yet.

              As for action mechanisms- we can see what medicines do, even if we don’t know exactly how they do it. Chemotherapy kills cells. It kills cancer cells slightly better than it kills regular cells, so we carefully calibrate doses to kill the cancer before killing the patient. Just because we don’t know exactly how the chemicals kill the cells (or didn’t, like I said we’re working on that) doesn’t mean we can’t actually see it working. Additionally, there’s quite clearly a mechanism for it, even if we don’t yet know what it is. “It obviously works and I’m going to find out how” is a far different attitude than “I want it to work and I’m quite sure it has to work somehow”.

              Vital biological fluid? Really? Are we going back to the four humors theory of disease?

            • Jimmy Russles

              @Kessy
              “ROFLMAO, so what exactly makes you think I’m a woman”

              Because you’re fucking retarded. No man could possibly be this stupid. You have Woman Logic

            • Custador

              Aaand that right there is the last bullshit straw that I read from this bullshit misogynist.

            • Jimmy Russles

              [NOPE]

            • Custador

              Did you seriously think that comment was in any way not going to get deleted? Debate or don’t, but keep your speculation about the state of other commenters ‘ pubic hair to yourself.

            • Sunny Day

              Annnnnnd a 2nd poster doubles down on bullshit. http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=2346
              So far we’ve had racism and misogyny. Whats next folks?

              @Alex, who appointed you gatekeeper of the thread?
              Frakkin racist.

            • Sunny Day

              Welp I hope someone takes a screenshot folks. It looks like Jimmy’s determined to go off the cliff into despicable personal attacks. Lets all say goodbye to Jimmy, he may not be here that long.

            • kessy_athena

              @Yoav – thank you, I really appreciate the comment. ^_^ However, for the record, I make no statements about ym gender, so make assumptions at your own risk. ;)

              @Micheal – Then I misinterpreted what you said; your wording was slightly ambiguous. Sorry, my bad, I take back what I said about working for any condition.

              @M – Thank you for the thoughtful response.

              “It obviously works and I’m going to find out how” is a far different attitude than “I want it to work and I’m quite sure it has to work somehow”.

              I agree with this statement completely. But isn’t the first step determining if something works or not? And shouldn’t that be done solely on the basis of the available evidence, without preconceptions one way or the other? The fact that people have in the past attributed an explanation to something that’s pretty clearly silly simply means that the explanation is wrong. What’s being explained may or may not turn out to be real.

              I’d also point out that since medicine deals with a very complex system (the human body) that has aspects that are not well understood at all, it may not be immediately obvious at all if something is working.

              The last point I’d like to make is that people will describe things in the terms that they’re familiar with. Of course something from across the world that’s thousands of years old isn’t going to use modern terminology. That doesn’t mean there’s nothing there. For example, if you come across an ancient text that talks about a city being destroyed by the fiery wrath of the gods, wouldn’t the logical thing be to go look for evidence of volcanic activity or something like that?

              All I’m asking is to not prejudge things based on labels or terminology or associations. Wait for the evidence, on a case by case basis.

            • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

              I don’t judge them based on labels. I do judge based on terminology and associations. When someone is peddling a whole bunch of obvious snake oil and BS, I’m not going to give them the benefit of the doubt on that one potion over there. Like it or not, credibility matters. Past experience matters. In the words of the inimitable Tim Minchin, “You show me that it works, and how it works, and when I’ve recovered from the shock I will take a compass and carve ‘Fancy That’ on the side of my cock!” I don’t have a cock, but you get the idea. Until then, I’ll stick with the laws of physics and biology as we know them. You have a huge hill to climb with CAM, because so much of it has been shown to be no better than placebo or actively harmful, thus anything placed in that bin is automatically suspect and rightly so. Basically, trust and credibility must be earned. CAM practitioners have failed to show themselves worthy of either trust or credibility, so why should I take anything they say seriously?

            • Jabster

              @All

              Calm down everyone Jimmy R is just a troll … you know the drill, posting something objectionable to get a reaction out of people.

              Honestly it didn’t even seem to be a very good troll … far too over the top in the first post.

              @kessy

              You apologised but forgot to answer Michael’s question – kinda of ironic as that’s exactly what Ray Comfort did.

            • Jabster

              @M

              “CAM practitioners have failed to show themselves worthy of either trust or credibility, so why should I take anything they say seriously?”

              Yep … if you want to claim it’s a real treatment then start acting in the same way. There really shouldn’t be anything magical (well besides the fact that they don’t work) about alternative medicine that stops them be evaluated in the same way real medicine is. The time CAM practitioners start standing up and saying well the trials show this basically doesn’t work so it would be dishonest of me to carry on taking people’s money for an ineffective treatment is the time I’ll follow Tim Minchin’s advice however painful it is.

              For an example of CAM at work do a search for chiropractic + Simon Perry.

            • kessy_athena

              @M – A century ago, most of the commonly available medications were patent medicines. Their ingredients were trade secrets, and if they had an active ingredient at all, it was generally just morphine or another opiate. This is, after all, the origin of the term “snake oil.” Would it then be appropriate to conclude that all drugs in general are woo?

              CAM is a grab bag term for everything that’s not currently part of western medicine. It’s pretty much by definition a label. Of course there are tons of frauds and con artists operating in the field. There are tons of frauds and con artists operating anywhere and everywhere there’s an opportunity. With a few notable exceptions, cons are almost always (relatively speaking) small and quiet – they generally don’t want publicity, since the only reputation they’re going to earn is bad. So there’s generally not going to be a well known brand name for con artists. So it seems to me what you’re doing is simply branding the entire subject area.

              Incidentally, isn’t it just guilt by association to brand the entire subject area woo because you have reason to dislike some of the notable personalities involved?

              Can we agree that putting acupuncture and Scientology in the same category really isn’t justified? And yet that’s exactly what happened in that Venn diagram. I would suggest that it’s possible there are other things being shoved in that same bin that don’t belong there. I’d further suggest that the most reasonable thing to do is to reserve judgement for the topics that you haven’t researched in depth. There’s nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know about most of these things…”

            • Custador

              “A century ago, most of the commonly available medications were patent medicines…”

              Yes. A CENTURY ago. Medicine has moved on. CAM has not. That’s an important difference.

              “CAM is a grab bag term for everything that’s not currently part of western medicine.”

              At its absolute best, CAM is a collection of creative and attentively applied placebos. At its absolute worst, it’s a collection of confidence tricks that do real and lasting harm. People die, have strokes and are crippled due to chiropractic manipulation. And it happens a LOT.

              “Can we agree that putting acupuncture and Scientology in the same category really isn’t justified?”

              No, I can’t agree to that. Scientologist “auditing” to “remove Thetans” is no more fantastical than stabbing arbitrarily allocated points on people’s body to manipulate the “flow” of their “energy”.

            • Jabster

              “Yes. A CENTURY ago. Medicine has moved on. CAM has not. That’s an important difference.”

              That’s a nice way of putting it – we now have ways of relatively successfully evaluating the effectiveness of medicine and CAM, overall, doesn’t wish to be part of this ‘club’. That’s obviously a choice someone is free to make but if so then stop claiming how it can cure conditions. Real medicine isn’t allowed to do so CAM shouldn’t be allowed to either.

              Of course one cry that often goes up is oh but look at how corrupt/deaths caused by/later shown to be ineffective etc. real medicine is. How weak must the evidence for CAM be that the best evidence they can put forward is the problems of real medicine. Does real medicine have its problems even though it’s highly regulated – yes of course now imagine the problems that CAM has.

              As an aside how on earth the NHS keeps funding homoeopathic treatments is beyond me. I understand why Boots does it but the NHS – that’s my money that’s being used to fund quackery.

            • kessy_athena

              @Custy: Yes, conventional medicine has moved on and CAM has not, but that’s a function of effort, not of time. It took a lot of work in the form of study, research, and regulation to get modern medicine where it is. That work for the most part either has not been done at all or only been partially done for CAM, for a variety of reasons. The regulatory situation certainly has a lot that can be criticized, but that’s primarily a political situation. In the US, most research on treatments and pharmaceuticals is done by large corporations, who are primarily motivated to find things they can patent and make money off of. This is a big part of the reason why there isn’t nearly as much hard data on CAM as on conventional medicine. I don’t doubt that you’re entirely correct that there are a lot of bad things that happen under the rubric of CAM. Just as there were a lot of bad things that happened under the rubric of mainstream medicine a century ago. Since using research to identify and improve best practices and regulation to enforce them seems to have brought about a very great improvement in conventional medicine, wouldn’t the logical course be to apply the same regimen to CAM?

              The Church of Scientology is a borderline criminal enterprise that’s been investigated by law enforcement in several countries. It uses a variety of manipulative, abusive, and fraudulent practices to control its members and separate them from their money, as well as to silence its critics. Do you really believe that acupuncture belongs in the same category?

              I understand your feelings about the traditional Chinese explanation of acupuncture. It certainly leaves a great many unanswered questions. It also certainly does not pass muster as a modern scientific theory. Considering that it’s several thousand years old, is that surprising? Is it a good idea to dismiss the entire subject out of distaste for the form that the traditional explanation is given in? Especially when there is sufficient hard evidence for the NIH, NHS, and WHO to all give it a limited endorsement? Are you certain enough that there’s no baby in the bath water to throw it out without checking first?

            • Custador

              The evidence on acupuncture says that it has a time-limited placebo effect, identical to sham acupuncture in trials, and inferior to both massage (for back pain) and drugs (for everything else). And the evidence on every other CAM says broadly similar things.

              As for comparing CAM to a criminal enterprise: Google Simon Singh getting sued by the Chiropractic people just for reporting actual facts about the history of chiropractic.

            • Len

              @kessy:

              Since using research to identify and improve best practices and regulation to enforce them seems to have brought about a very great improvement in conventional medicine, wouldn’t the logical course be to apply the same regimen to CAM?

              Well yes, but the research is funded by companies that see a way to get even more money out of it than they put into it. And that means they must see something that actually works – or has a more than decent chance of actually working when they’ve been able to develop it a bit. The fact that that hasn’t been happening over the last century or so ought to be a clue.

            • kessy_athena

              @Custy: I’m sorry, but that’s just not what the references at NIH, NHS, and WHO say. And for the umpteenth time, sham acupuncture is not a sham in the colloquial sense. The results with sham acupuncture do seriously call into question the traditional system of meridians and points, but not the overall practice.

              I’ll look up Simon Singh later, but like I said, I don’t doubt there are frauds and con artists at work. But as they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant – I think research and regulation is the way to go.

              @Len: That’s true, but like you said, the primary motivation of the corporations is to make money, and that requires that something be patentable and marketable. Working is unfortunately a second order consideration. Like I said earlier, aspirin probably wouldn’t make it to market today, since you can’t patent willow bark.

            • Custador

              I already gave you a link that demonstrates that sham accupuncture often is sham, please go back and see my earlier comment.

            • Noelle

              Hey, Kessy. I refuse to comment on a thread insulting my intelligence based solely on receiving the double-X combo upon conception. Had I known I was retarded, I could’ve saved myself a lot of grief in school and wouldn’t be working my ass off every week usimg my education to help people. I know, trolls are gonna troll, or something. But, no. You want alt med on the forums?

            • Jabster

              @Len

              Got to disagree … it’s the same with the automotive industry. We have a major problem with carbon emissions from motorised transport and although there’s been some good advances with technology (mostly driven by regulation but also by money) the automotive industry is still stuck in the western tradition. Don’t you agree the same level of rigour should be put into flying carpets after all they zero carbon emissions?

          • Len

            @Jabster: Find me a working flying carpet and we can test it rigorously. (You can go first.)

            • Jabster

              That’s a very good point … can I change the subject ;-)

            • kessy_athena

              So, on a pretty left leaning blog, suddenly corporations can do no wrong and the market is always right? Okaaaaaaaay.

            • Jabster

              @kessy

              Well you know what us racists are like …

            • kessy_athena

              Yanno, Jabster, you sure are obsessed with an offhand comment. Guilty conscious much?

            • Jabster

              @kessy

              Is that the off hand comment you spent ages trying to justify or a different one. You do realise that this is a blog where your comments are there for all to read don’t you?

            • kessy_athena

              That would be the offhand comment I made as part of a longer post on 26 March here:
              http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2013/03/the-venn-diagram-of-irrational-nonsense/#comment-817013
              That Sunny then brought up a week later on 3 April here:
              http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2013/04/ray-comfort-is-still-an-idiot/#comment-817582
              That then turned into a larger discussion involving several people that pretty much wound down and moved on to other topics by 5 April. And here you are, two days after anyone else was talking about it, almost two weeks after the original comment, dredging it up again. Interestingly, no one, including you, have actually disputed my original point that automatically dismissing things simply for not being a part of the Western tradition is racist.

              Honestly, don’t you ever get tired of saying things that make you look like a complete idiot when someone just scrolls up the page?

            • Michael

              If calling us racists was “offhand,” then just fucking apologize, don’t try to justify it. And it wasn’t something just picked out of nowhere a week down the road, it was something I and others objected to immediately. You can’t just go around calling people racists based on nothing and feel persecuted when people call you on it.

              Interestingly, no one, including you, have actually disputed my original point that automatically dismissing things simply for not being a part of the Western tradition is racist.

              In fact, we have admitted that that would be racist if we had ever said that. I even specifically said “Nobody has said, for instance, acupuncture doesn’t work because it is Eastern.” You seem unable to see our comments for what they are, and instead must impute some sort of racist intent to wrap your head around them. If we disagree with you, it must be because we are just racists dismissing things that weren’t invented by white people.

              In fact, when I asked you to point to any specific comment, you couldn’t even do it, instead saying that it was sort of “implied” by all the comments or some such nonsense, or that evidence-based medicine is inherently Western (itself a racially-charged statement). You have no actual argument here, just “feelings.”

            • kessy_athena

              @Michael:

              So if you agree that the sort of behavior I described is racist and you reject its practice, why are you even arguing with me about it, much less upset over it? If that’s really the case, then clearly the comment would not apply to you at all.

              I didn’t go back and comb through previous comments because I didn’t want to throw gas on the fire by dragging people into it when, like I said before, I have no way of knowing if the implication was deliberate or not. You will note that I never called you or anyone other specific person a racist. I can’t tell what’s in someone’s heart, and I was trying to point out something nasty looking without going around throwing out personal accusations.

              And evidence based medicine and Western medicine are not the same thing. In fact, far less of the Western set intersects with the evidence based set then you or I would like. And while the “wooiness” of something may not be based on country of origin, it does seem to often be based on culture.

            • Custador

              “In fact, far less of the Western set intersectswith the evidence base”d set than you or I would like. “

              1) You just admitted that you like your medicine evidence flavoured. Actually, I suspect that’s the case with a lot of CAM fans; they’ll keep on shouting that Big Pharma Is Evil and insisting that Cannabis Cures Cancer, right up until they get cancer, at which point they’re straight down the Oncologist’s office for three rounds of chemo.

              2) There is a difference: Regular medicine strives to be more evidence-based all the time, and is extremely aware of where we need to improve. CAM practitioners don’t care, provided there are enough GROLIES to keep them paid.

              3) You’ll note I said “regular medicine”, not “Western medicine”, because to be frank I think your repeated use of “Western medicine” to describe regular medicine and “Eastern medicine” to describe CAM, is (ironically) quite racist. Science is global, and so is wafley woo-woo based twaddle.

            • kessy_athena

              “1) You just admitted that you like your medicine evidence flavoured. Actually, I suspect that’s the case with a lot of CAM fans; they’ll keep on shouting that Big Pharma Is Evil and insisting that Cannabis Cures Cancer, right up until they get cancer, at which point they’re straight down the Oncologist’s office for three rounds of chemo.”

              Of course I like my medicine evidence flavored – when have I ever suggested otherwise? My first stop with anything medical will always be my regular primary care physician. And I never said that Big Pharma is evil, I merely pointed out that they are in business to make money first (like all for profit corporations.) That doesn’t make them bad – there’s nothing wrong with making money. It’s just that you have to keep their motivations in mind when judging their actions, just like any other group of people.

              “2) There is a difference: Regular medicine strives to be more evidence-based all the time, and is extremely aware of where we need to improve. CAM practitioners don’t care, provided there are enough GROLIES to keep them paid.”

              I’ve never disputed this. Conventional western medicine is better researched, better funded, and better regulated than pretty much any variety of CAM. And I’ve said repeatedly that there is no doubt there are plenty of con artists plying their trade under the CAM rubric. But saying that all CAM practitioners are frauds is no more justified then saying that all conventional doctors are scrupulously honest. There are CAM practitioners who are as conscientious and as dedicated to their patient’s health as any conventional doctor, and there are conventional doctors who are as crooked as a dog’s leg.

              “3) You’ll note I said “regular medicine”, not “Western medicine”, because to be frank I think your repeated use of “Western medicine” to describe regular medicine and “Eastern medicine” to describe CAM, is (ironically) quite racist. Science is global, and so is wafley woo-woo based twaddle.”

              What exactly constitutes “regular medicine” varies a lot from place to place. Acupuncture is entirely mainstream in China, Japan, and South Korea, for example. What we’ve all been talking about is what’s considered conventional and mainstream in the US, Europe, and other parts of the West, thus making “western medicine” an entirely appropriate term to use. And I’ve never used “Eastern medicine” as a synonym for CAM. A lot of traditional Asian medicine is considered CAM in the West, but as I’ve repeatedly said, CAM is a grab bag category that has all sorts of things included.

            • Jabster

              @kessy

              “Interestingly, no one, including you, have actually disputed my original point that automatically dismissing things simply for not being a part of the Western tradition is racist.”

              Maybe, just maybe it’s because (as has been pointed out to you several times) nobody said something even remotely like that.

            • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

              @kessy, I don’t know where you are from or where you’ve lived. I have lived in Japan. They practice evidence-based medicine there, not CAM, as primary just like we do in the US. When I got pneumonia, I went to the hospital where I got antibiotics. When my sister got the flu, she went to the clinic where they kept her for a few hours on IV fluids to make sure she wasn’t dehydrated (standard flu practice in Asia, actually). My grandmother, who fractured an ankle on a visit, got x-rays and a walking cast, not chiropractor or acupuncture. People everywhere like medical care that works; while some people did see acupuncturists and other CAM practitioners, they did it with the same (non)expectations Westerners have. It probably won’t work as well, and it might not work at all, but it probably won’t hurt, so why not?

              So no, “Western” medicine isn’t the appropriate term to use at all. Medicine is. I suggest you read up on Orientalism (fetishizing the exotic “Eastern Other”), because that seems to be what you’re doing.

            • Custador

              Yeah, pretty much this. My hospital trains a lot of Chinese doctors, particularly surgeons. I’ve yet to hear one order a stat dose of tiger penis or a course of acupuncture.

            • Sunny Day

              I didn’t go back and comb through previous comments because I [introspection makes head explodie.] – fixed that for ya

              I can’t tell what’s in someone’s heart, (Why now, his hasn’t stopped you before?)
              and I was trying to point out something nasty looking without going around throwing out personal accusations. (irrespective of what anyone actually fuckin said)

            • kessy_athena

              @M:

              And there you go again, in full woo warrior mode, ready to gird on your sword and fly into the breach of the cosmic battle between Woo and Rationalism, preparing for the Final Battle where the forces of Rationalism will utterly triumph and cast the forces of Woo into eternal darkness…

              You act like you think that there’s some sort of war going on between Rationalism and Woo, which can only result in one side utterly and completely destroying the other. Like you think the existence of CAM will result in regular doctors being rounded up and thrown in jail or something. That’s utterly ridiculous – no one seriously suggests that any sort of CAM will completely replace conventional medicine. Why in the world would you think a Japanese doctor would prescribe acupuncture as the primary treatment for a broken leg? And how in the world did chiropractic get into that train of thought?

              I live in Philadelphia, and no, I’ve never been to Japan. My understanding (and correct me if I’m wrong) is that the Japanese view acupuncture as simply another sort of medical specialty, to be prescribed as appropriate. A Japanese doctor might send you to an acupuncturist the same way a Western doctor might send you to an allergy specialist.

              @Custy:

              And I expect you don’t see surgeons (Chinese or otherwise) prescribing a course of foot fungus cream, either. Your point being?

            • Custador

              “And I expect you don’t see surgeons (Chinese or otherwise) prescribing a course of foot fungus cream, either. Your point being?”

              Just to clarify: Did you deliberately misrepresent what I said there, or did you just fail to comprehend it? “Particularly” does not mean the same as “exclusively”. Incidentally, clotrimazole (foot fungus cream) has many uses other than for treating foot fungus, and some surgeons do routinely prescribe it as part of the post-op recovery routine.

              And I’m sure you can now work out the point I was making without me bluntly explaining it to you.

            • Jabster

              @Sunny D

              Highlight of the moment is …

              “You will note that I never called you or anyone other specific person a racist.”

              … and a few posts back …

              “Yanno, Jabster, you sure are obsessed with an offhand comment. Guilty conscious much?”

            • Sunny Day

              Custador some of the last few blown up comment threads she’s been involved in have said the same thing. Welcome to the club!

              “Just to clarify: Did you deliberately misrepresent what I said there, or did you just fail to comprehend it?”

    • C Tran

      Well, he could have deleted everything or the “offending material” and act like it never happened. It would almost certainly work for his followers.

  • Rain

    “The Christian believes the Bible, because he has met the Author and has an on-going relationship with Him.”

    Oh look, it’s weasel-word salad. It’s what’s for dinner. Not to mention bald-faced lies.

    • Jimmy Russles

      seconded. thirded.

  • Greg G.

    Honestly, how does somebody that stupid remember how to breathe?

    He has “TGIF” written on the insoles of his shoes to remind him that Toes Go In First.

  • Korou

    Look, let’s be fair to Ray Comfort – whatever other multitudinous reasons we have to disagree with him he did apologise courteously when he was corrected. In this case, he seems to have done the right thing, and I don’t think he deserves to be called stupid for it.

    • http://themikewrites.blogspot.com JohnMWhite

      No, he’s still stupid, and dishonest. His apology masks that he is deliberately dodging the actual point raised, a point that his ignorance already got him away with dodging once. He’s not doing the right thing, he’s continuing to lie for Jesus.

      • Jabster

        Are you claiming that the fact that big dogs fit into our cars isn’t proof of God?

      • Sunny Day

        That’s a fucking great tactic.
        Deliberately sidestep a point by flying into a rage about yet another thing they should know or could begin to know with a simple right click., then apologize. Some bystanders will think, “What a nice man,” while missing the unanswered question.

        • Jabster

          I don’t use FB, so can you delete content like that? If you could I’m surprised that he didn’t as he was fairly notorious for editing his own posts and moderating in his own favour on his blog. Of course this had to be fitted in between the general dishonesty and stupidity that spewed forth.

          Saying that I miss Atheist Central … where else can proof of God be presented by comparing a Sphinx cat (hairless and considered to be ugly by many) and a fluffy cute ‘standard’ kitten and saying one is the product of man and one the product of God.

  • http://www.brgulker.wordpress.com brgulker

    Technically, I think this is ignorance rather than stupidity.

    • Len

      It’s wilful ignorance, studied ignorance. The man has a PhD in ignorance. But with careful application, it often appears as simple stupidity. Genius at work.

  • Jabster

    Come on James you can do better than that … is the standard of trolling really this bad now?


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