Young Gay American former editor writes of changed life

Today’s WorldNetDaily carries an article and column featuring Michael Glatze, who describes a religious conversion that he says has led to sexual conversion as well.

Glatze says a 2005 appearance with Judy Shepard stimulated reflection that led to an evaluation of his life. While it will be tempting for those opposed to homosexuality to generalize Mr. Glatze’s experience, I hope they will resist it (apparently WND already has done so). I also hope pro-gay proponents will not savage the man for his sharp words about homosexuality. Inasmuch as he generalizes his experience to all gays, that will be unfortunate. At the same time, whatever happened in his life, he suggests again that religious devotion can stimulate rather huge shifts in a person’s beliefs, values, and behavior. I know nothing about Mr. Glatze beyond this article, although I suspect we may be hearing more about him in the coming days.

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  • jag

    “I also hope pro-gay proponents will not savage the man for his sharp words about homosexuality.”

    Well, would you be making a statement like this if we replaced the word “homosexuality” with “african americans?” That shows the ludicrous nature of asking individuals to be kind to bigotry. With homosexuality, it seems far more tolerated…unfortunately, it is all done in the name of Christianity.

    Even that the book “the marketing of evil” (“evil” being homosexuality) is mentioned is disasterous.

    What this seems to show is that he became more and more influenced by, not just a religion that finds his internal inclinations “sinful,” but that he began to surround himself with more media (like the book) that also told him such things. All of this leading to an increasing sense of isolation, increasing internalized homophobia, and self-shame/criticism. He then does the “right” thing and converts…saying he is now no longer gay, and reports it makes him feel better. Big surprise.

    I feel badly for this guy. If only he would have attended a church that accepted him and saw christianity and homosexuality as not mutually exclusive, and if only he would have been better able to discern propaganda (such as the book) from truth in a sensationalistic and uninformed society….then maybe, he could have been himself AND a christian…

    imagine, the heresy.

  • http://allpointsinbetween.blogspot.com Brian

    “he suggests again that religious devotion can stimulate rather huge shifts in a person’s beliefs, values, and behavior.”

    This concerns me because the implication that follows is that if huge shifts do not occur in a person, that his/her religious devotion is some how not good or strong enough. That message is dangerous both to the church body who judges the individual and the person herself/himself who is forced to internalize that inadequacy.

    What do we say to the faith of those who haven’t experienced huge shifts? (actual, non-rhetorical, question)

  • paul

    Glatze wrote:

    “I’d developed a growing relationship with God, thanks to a debilitating bout with intestinal cramps caused by the upset stomach-inducing behaviors I’d been engaged in.”

    I’ve experienced some of my most moving repentance during episodes of nausea.

    This is the first I have ever heard of Michael Glatze also. I wonder how long he has been a changed man and exactly what that change is? Is this a sudden radical change or is he still struggling with ssa? Not to be cynical, but I wonder if he is HIV positive? His “relationship with God” grew out of a response to physical illness, did he make a deal with “God?” (I’ve done that, that’s why I ask). It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

  • Mitchell

    Michael received help from religious leader Roy Masters. Roy has maintained a program in Oregon at ‘Tall Timber Ranch’ for decades. When Matthew Drudge used to have a tv show, he used to have Roy as a guest. At the time, Roy also helped Matt leave the lifestyle. The press of course reports very little of this, although Drudge spoke about it in Radar magazine over 8 years ago. God Bless them both their journeys.

  • Scott

    Mr. Glatze says, “Even in the darkest days of late-night parties, substance abuse and all kinds of things – when I felt like, ‘Why am I here, what am I doing?’ – there was always a voice there.”

    Being “gay” isn’t the problem here. You can lead a gay life without ever participating in this destructive behavior. Moreover, these behaviors are not exclusive to gay people (and just think for a moment about the church’s response to these heterosexual sinners.) This “gay = a specific set of behaviors” is an appalling fallacy.

    I am glad to see that Mr. Glatze has found a more healthy way to live his life.

  • http://www.swcity.net SW Chris

    @Jag

    It seems to me that you don’t know what this man’s internal motivations are. Why speculate?

    @ Mitchel

    You mean THE Matt Drudge had ssa? You learn something new every day. :)

  • paul

    Michael Glatze said:

    ” there was always a voice there.”

    Was it the voice of of “God” or of Michael’s “Christian aunt who disapproved of his lifestyle?” Who “was never judgmental, but always firm?” Combine this with the common knowledge that promiscuity and hard partying can, well, kill you, do we really have a “voice” from God?

    Michael also wrote: (WND 7/3/07)

    “Knowing no one who I could approach with my questions and doubts, I turned to God…” “Soon I began to understand things I’d never known could possibly be real, such as the fact that I was leading a movement of sin and corruption…” “I came to the conclusions on my own.”

    Michael further states: (WND 7/3/07 by Art Moore)

    “Glatze contacted WND managing editor David Kupelian after reading his book “The Marketing of Evil” which Gatze said has given me so much help in my process of healing from the profound influences of evil in our current society.”

    I don’t doubt that Michael believes he “came to the conclusions on [his] own,” but his words seem to belie that. Michael didn’t come up with the word “sin” on his own. Michael had “help” coming out of a destructive lifestyle, but was it all destructive? Perhaps time will tell whether Michael threw out the baby with the bath water.

  • Timothy Kincaid

    …he suggests again that religious devotion can stimulate rather huge shifts in a person’s beliefs, values, and behavior.

    I’ve never doubted that. But, then again, I also am old enough to remember Jonestown.

  • Sonja Dalton

    Brian asked: What do we say to the faith of those who haven’t experienced huge shifts?

    Mental assent (thinking or saying “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God”) is not faith and is not sufficient. “Even the demons believe–and shudder!”

    Jesus said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change …you will never enter the kingdom of heaven…” and “Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.” The Apostle Paul taught that Christians must “repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds” and instructed “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”

    Each of us must turn completely away from our lusts and our pride, toward righteousness — and that is, for nearly every one, a HUGE shift.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/ Warren

    Mitchell wrote:

    Michael received help from religious leader Roy Masters. Roy has maintained a program in Oregon at ‘Tall Timber Ranch’ for decades. When Matthew Drudge used to have a tv show, he used to have Roy as a guest. At the time, Roy also helped Matt leave the lifestyle. The press of course reports very little of this, although Drudge spoke about it in Radar magazine over 8 years ago.

    Mitchell, can you provide documentation for this? I looked for the source and cannot find the Radar Magazene article. I also do not see any documentation of Michael Glatze’s involvement with Masters. Can you document this?

    I have reviewed some of Master’s website and it looks like a self help site. Some really questionable stuff there to me.

  • http://www.exgaywatch.com David Roberts

    @Mitchell

    At the time, Roy also helped Matt leave the lifestyle. The press of course reports very little of this, although Drudge spoke about it in Radar magazine over 8 years ago.

    First of all, Radar Magazine opened barely 4 years ago with a couple of test issues, and has folded at least once since and been reopened.  The only interview Matt Drudge gave them was one of those test issues, the first I believe, in 2003.  He didn’t mention anything about Roy Masters or being gay or anything like it.  Your misinformation isn’t helping anyone here.

    I have no reason to think that Glatze has anything to do with Masters, who is not at all popular among conservative Christians (basic search for info on him).  If you have any solid facts to back that up, by all means provide them.

  • Mike Airhart

    Neither Glatze nor YGA were well-known: The magazine lasted only one year, according to archive.org. It opened in September 2004 and closed by the end of 2005. Its promised sixth issue seems not to have materialized in January 2006.

  • Marty

    Even that the book “the marketing of evil” (”evil” being homosexuality) is mentioned is disasterous.

    Actually, I found it to be accurate, relevant, and exhaustively researched. Not to mention very, very pointed.

    The reaction it’s received in the “reader reviews” at amazon.com should convince anyone (agree or disagree) that this is an important book. Read it for yourself.

  • Jayhuck

    Warren et al:

    I agree with JAG – So while he sits and makes huge generalizations about gay people you’re saying we should just sit here and take it.

    Honestly, this is the exact same thing we keep seeing over and over from a minority of Ex-Gays. They get so caught up in overcoming what they thought was bad, that they don’t realize the harm they do to groups with their words. I know this is somewhat silly, but I’m betting if we had African Americans who could change their skin color, there would be some of them, like this man, making derogatory generalizations about the group they claim they no longer belong to.

    None of us should have to take what this man says quietly. Frankly, I’m tired of seeing this same thing happen over and over with some in the Ex-Gay community –

  • Jayhuck

    Yeah,

    I also agree with Scott – Mr. Glatz does what so many Ex-Gays do, and that is equate substance abuse and other issues with being gay – WHEN, if he were straight, he would never associate his problems with his orientation – Again,this is nothing new – you hear it over and over from people in the Ex-Gay movement. Somehow people have tied their problems to their orientation. The people at BXG speak to this when they talk about their good experiences with Ex-Gay programs.

    They say that the Ex-Gay programs really helped them overcome lifelong struggles with drugs, sex or alcohol – it wasn’t until much later, though, that they realized they hadn’t really overcome their SSA, they had just suppressed it – Which, I’m betting, is what’s going on here. I’m somewhat suprised you don’t notice that more too, Warren.

  • Jayhuck

    Marty,

    I’m not sure what you mean, but the Marketing of Evil is nothing but a biased author trying to push an agenda. And you and I probably have different definitions of what “accurate” and “exhaustively researched” mean.

    No academic that I know of takes that book seriously. Of course, people who already have prejudices about gay people or who are already radically conservative will eat the book up and support it because it justifies their beliefs. Not a new tactic for either side, but definitely not ACCURATE.

  • http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com Jim Burroway

    I also hope pro-gay proponents will not savage the man for his sharp words about homosexuality.

    “Young man” is relative. He’s over thirty. In my book, he’s a man. Or at least he ought to be.

    I have no problem with people living according to their faith. I do however have a very serious problem — and indignation, to be more accurate — with those who hide behind their faith to “savage” those they disagree with.

    I believe he needs to be held accountable for how he has freely chosen to characterize the lives of the rest of us. If that’s “savaging”, then consider me a savage.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/ Warren

    Jim — Where you reading “young?”

    What is have in mind is that he may have made unhealthy choices, and been in a segment of the gay world that was like he described. I know that many gays do not live as he describes but I wonder if he does.

    I can understand the reaction — I don’t like it when religious people are lumped together as haters, or people from Southern Ohio as hicks :) — but I hope those who have been maligned see that he may be fresh from religious conversion and is associating his past problems with the direction of his attractions rather than how he chose to live at the time.

  • Jayhuck

    Just out of curiosity, does anyone take WND seriously? I didn’t think even conservatives did.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/ Warren

    Jayhuck – I do notice that SSA does not always fade with a healthier lifestyle. Did I say I thought differently somewhere?

  • Jayhuck

    Warren,

    No you didn’t, but I’m not sure why you posted this man’s writings? NOTHING he is saying is new, and the site he published them on has problems with credibility.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/ Warren

    What is new is that he has made a pretty big change. Mike says he was not well known, but he was well-known enough to appear with Judy Shepard at Harvard. It is news on the topic I frequently discuss and research. The site itself is less material since his byline appears with his column. I have emailed him and asked some follow up questions…nothing as yet however.

  • Jayhuck

    Warren,

    I also don’t care for the way you worded your last post. You said, I notice that SSA does NOT ALWAYS fade, suggesting that it does in a majority of cases, and I haven’t read anything, anywhere suggesting that that is the case.

    I suppose you could say that in some cases where people have overcome addictions, they also overcame SSAs to an whatever extend they did, but I was trying to get us to separate addictions from homosexuality – in the same way we don’t associate addictions with the heterosexual community.

  • Jayhuck

    Warren,

    Maybe its me, but I’ve heard similar claims of change for other Ex-Gays. I still don’t understand what the big deal is.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/ Warren

    Yikes, Jayhuck, please take into context my other writings. Whether you believe it or not, some people do report diminished attractions as a result of focusing on their values, others do not. I do not know how often either of these outcomes occur in a general sense. We have no research that would allow representative statements. That is all that I can really say beyond my own therapy experience and speculation.

  • Jayhuck

    Warren,

    I reread the article and there are aboslutely NO claims we haven’t heard before from almost all Ex-Gay people – the only thing that seems to make this news is that he was “on the forefront of gay activism” – but his words are old hat.

  • Jayhuck

    Warren,

    As a therapist I hope you realize that just because SSAs may fade for some as they focus on their values does not prove any kind of direct link between the two. All we know is that there is a coorelation – that is Psyche 101, right?

  • http://www.exgaywatch.com David Roberts

    Whether you believe it or not, some people do report diminished attractions as a result of focusing on their values, others do not. I do not know how often either of these outcomes occur in a general sense.

    Warren, can I assume that you mean sexual attractions in general may diminish, not just same sex ones?

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/ Warren

    David — Yes, that is true. Jayhuck was asking about SSA so that was the context for my remark.

    Jayhuck — No, I do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt, but the parsimonious explanation would point to such a link. However, keep in mind that in my work, this is not the necessary aim, nor is it the measure of success. But I would be untrue to my observations if I said anything else.

  • http://www.exgaywatch.com David Roberts

    Just out of curiosity, does anyone take WND seriously? I didn’t think even conservatives did.

    About as seriously as Daily Kos.

  • Jayhuck

    Warren,

    I agree with you, there is a coorelation there, just no direct link. You can’t infer a direct link from what you told me.

  • Jayhuck

    David Roberts – LOL!

    As for Glatz – I’m sure its because I live under a rock, but I’ve never heard of this man!

  • http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com Jim Burroway

    I guess I must have read “young” into it. I’ve read others elsewhere describing him this way, especially since he was part of a “youth” magazine. Sorry about that.

    By the way, at the Exodus conference I had the pleasure of not only hearing about how awful the homosexual community is, I also got the hear a bad “Deliverance” joke that poked at hicks from the town where the movie was filmed. :-) Of course this joke is not unique to any group by any means. I guess generalizations are par for the course lately.

    I know that any sort of conversion, religious or otherwise, may induce excessive zeal. But I don’t recall it producing amnesia. I don’t think that is what’s meant by “the old has passed away.” Surely he hasn’t forgotten how the same rhetoric he unleashed here has hurt him in the past when others directed it to him.

    I suspect we’re seeing something more than just zeal. My suspicions, with nothing to go on except this article, so maybe there’s some projection on my part. But where they say “it takes one to know one”? Well, just let me say that I remember a time…

  • Jayhuck

    Coorelation = Correlation – I can spell! REALLY! :)

  • Eddy

    Okay, so it sounds like he lived that other kind of gay life…the drugs, the alcohol, the promiscuity. An empty AND dangerous life. Yet, there he was empty and searching for a better life. It’s always puzzled me why the gay Christians aren’t reaching out more to that part of the community most at risk. Are gay Christians, as a whole, non-evangelical?

  • http://howller.blogspot.com/ howller

    I guess I must have read “young” into it. I’ve read others elsewhere describing him this way, especially since he was part of a “youth” magazine. Sorry about that.

    Uhh, Warren used “Young Gay American” in the post title.

  • Lynn David

    Glatze claims he was creating “performances” when he appeared in support of gay peoples. And now Glatze is in bed with ever not just conservative fundies but rabid neo-cons? If ever there was a performance, this to is one for Glatze, probably a paid performance. There will be several articles in WND, a book deal in which he bashes gay people.

    Warren what is your tak on this statement by Glatze?

    Lust takes us out of our bodies, “attaching” our psyche onto someone else’s physical form. That’s why homosexual sex – and all other lust-based sex – is never satisfactory: It’s a neurotic process rather than a natural, normal one. Normal is normal – and has been called normal for a reason.

    News to me that there is no such thing as a good healthy lusting for the one you love. But then he says:

    Homosexual people – like all people – yearn for the mythical true love, which does actually exist. The problem with homosexuality is that true love only comes when we have nothing preventing us from letting it shine forth from within. We cannot fully be ourselves when our minds are trapped in a cycle and group-mentality of sanctioned, protected and celebrated lust.

    Ah… I can never experience love because I… wait, that isn’t my behavior! When did how you make of your life get to be sexual orientation?

    What does this say abot sexual orientation? Uh… nothing? Glatze alternately says he knew he was gay at either 14 or 13 and came out at 20. So many men I know say they knew something was different with themselves at an early age 5 or 6, some even earlier, some have even said they knew it was they liked the same sex. I remember that early feeling of fdiference, I just can’t help but thinking that someone who didn’t first get a feeling until they were 13 or 14 might be representative of that continuum which we call bisexuality.

    If that is so for Glatze then perhaps such a denunciation of homosexuality becomes easier for him. Still, I cannot see how anyone who count persons as friends who are gay and lesbian should become so rabid as Glatze. Glatze was surely bit by someone who has a hate-filled agenda, who could convince him it is really love. I don’t at all think that was “god.”

    BTW… the YGA website appears to be down:

    http://www.ygamag.com/

    And it appears Michael Glatze was baptized last April 28th in Halifax, Nova Scotia – http://ashleyandchadquist.blogspot.com/2007/05/pretty-good-weekend.html

    Then on Saturday was relaxing and fun. the morning/afternoon relaxed, then we went to the church at 4 for the baptism of Michael Glatze. He is very cool, he seems so excited to have found the gospel, it is very inspiring. Then we had a ward activity full of food, games and socializing.

    Uh… wait! Did she say “ward?” Michael Glatze became a MORMON. I wonder if Evergreen was involved.

  • Lynn David

    Two comments come to mind now that it is known that Michael Glatze was baptized into the Church of Later Day Saints (Mormon). First, now he and I can talk genealogy/family history.

    Second… do you know what you get if you search World Net Daily for the word Mormon? WND is not to commendatory of the religion, so I guess as long as it’s anti-gay they’ll take anyone’s story. Where’er Mormons are, the WND hates gays more.

  • http://boxturtlebulletin.com Jim Burroway

    This is my observation, mine alone. It probably seems harsh. It is harsh, so I hope you’ll forgive me.

    It appears to me that the gay Christians who are evangelical are probably less likely to reach out to the part of the community most at risk, simply because the non-gay evangelicals have given Evangelicalism such a bad name.

    This is not to say that anyone would turn away when a friend is in trouble. But to be perfectly honest, Evangelicals have garnered quite a reputation over the past 25 years in particular, so much so that the very name of Christ has become like a poison to an awful lot of people.

    I don’t think we can pin this one on a lack of response among gay Christians generally. They do what they can when they can. But they are often poorly received, and are made to stand as a proxy for the many other “Christians” who turned their backs (and worse) during the height of the AIDS crisis.

    Ex-gay minister Joe Dallas really put it well when he said the gay community will never forget how so many members of the Body of Christ behaved. He says, and I agree, that the Church has a lot to answer for. In my view, they really haven’t even begun to make up for past sins.

  • minty

    It’s deeply troubling that two seemingly self-confident and outspoken gay leaders like Glatze and Charlize Cothran could have been so unhappy and tormented on the inside, while mouthing all the right things in public.

    As a former Muslim, I am deeply familiar with the religious dichotomy of sin and salvation, a powerful worldview Glatze and Cothran, like myself, never truely escaped.

    So I find this story very sad, and fascinating, fascinating, fascinating.

  • Boris

    For once, just once I would like to see these ex-gay converts take some personal responsibility of their drug abuse or promiscuity instead of blaming being gay for their own behavior. This Glatze character is precisely like Chambers and al, who blame gays for their own behavior.

    This obviously imbalanced man who didn’t get what he wanted when being gay has been trained well by these “ex-gay” ministries: he demands revoking even the basic human rights of gays. Well, Alan Chambers has also sang praise to countries that jail and torture gays so this Glatze is no exception.

    I just wonder how these ex-gay ministries who claim to heal people only manage to fill their clients with anger and hate.

    Well, time will tell how this turns out. My bet is on that after a few years of being religious right’s new favorite gay bashing tool, he’ll end up miserable and alone.

  • Eddy

    Thanks Jim. BTW: I didn’t think you came across harsh at all.

    As a former street evangelist and a current blogger, I know full-well how much time and energy it takes just to get past the infamous ‘guilt by association’. Many thought they knew ‘just where we were coming from’ before we spoke a word.

    Question, though, would they really be considered ‘evangelical gay Christians’ if they’ve abandoned evangelism? Further question, sorry…

    does your answer suggest that before the lamentable church response to AIDS, gay Christians WERE in fact evangelising?

    Boris–

    Please be mindful of generalizations and overstatements.

    “Once, just once” I’d like to see them take some personal responsibility for their drug abuse, etc. It’s been done. MY drug abuse and my homosexuality were two distinct issues in my life. In my time, it was unpopular to mix the two. If people made a ’cause and effect’ relationship between my drug abuse and my homosexuality, they were making a connection that I didn’t make.

    “This Glatzke character is PRECISELY like Alan Chambers and al.” I read his testimony and groaned repeatedly about the tone and the word choices. Either qualify ‘precisely’ or qualify ‘and al’.

    “This unbalanced man has been trained well by ‘ex-gay ministries’. Well, actually, we seem to be discovering that his version of ‘ex-gay’ is rooted in Mormon beliefs and training not by training received from ex-gay ministries.

    “I just wonder how these ex-gay ministries…ONLY manage to fill their clients with anger and hate.” Sorry, in my pubic high school, I was taught to beware of such dramatic generalizations.

    Please continue to comment here. I’m not bashing you. I just believe that your comments would be better received if they didn’t suffer from the over-statements.

  • Boris

    I am sorry if I’m not happy to witness a birth of another “ex-gay” whose sole purpose seems to be attacking gays, especially gays that have done better choices than he did.

    With “et al” I meant all those ex-gays who generazlie their own choices of prostitution or drug use to be valid examples of gay lives. So far everyone that I have had the pleasure to meet.

    I’m not going to be regular here, so don’t worry. I won’t bother you with my “overstatements” anymore, BTW. This Glatzke character is already spewing his particular brand of venom in Concerned Women of America radio show. Is there reason for wonder how quickly these “ex-gays” turn into most vicious anti-gay rhetoric in existence after their “conversion”.

    Listen to him and then tell me that I’m overstating things.

  • Scott

    Eddy said. Okay, so it sounds like he lived that other kind of gay life…the drugs, the alcohol, the promiscuity. An empty AND dangerous life.

    Why is there only ‘that other’ alternative to ‘drugs, alcohol, and promiscuity’? It seems to me that being gay plays a role in how you live your life, as does your profession, what part of the country you live, the family living near to you and your interests. Are there only two types of the ‘straight life’?

  • Marty

    Jayhuck,

    For the record, No — not even I take WND very seriously.

    But you can’t judge a book by it’s publisher, now can you? The Marketing of Evil bears little resemblance to the screeds you find on WND.

    I dare you to actually read it.

  • Rick Segreda

    So Paster Roy got Matt Drudge to “leave the lifestyle,” but seemingly blessed a man who makes his living off of gossip and slander. Amazing grace indeed! Can someone explain to me why evangelical Christians greenlight certain vices but hit the ceiling over homosexuality?

    In the meantime, I wonder if Pastor Roy ever read the following to disciple Drudge:

    Leviticus 19:16 – “Do not go about spreading slander among your people. Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.” (NIV)

    Proverbs 11:13 – “A gossip betrays a confidence, but a trustworthy man keeps a secret.” (NIV)

    Romans 1:29 – “They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips.” (NIV)

    1 Timothy 5:13 – “Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.” (NIV)

    Matthew 7:1 – “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.” (NIV)

    Proverbs 18:8 – “The words of gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to a man’s inmost parts.” (NIV)

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/ Warren

    Rick – We have no idea at this point that any of the Drudge – Masters connection is accurate. I would urge you not to spread it unless confirmed or else you will be violating the Scriptures you quote.

  • Teri

    “I became an editor of the first magazine aimed at a young, gay male audience. It bordered on pornography in its photographic content”

    “Homosexuality, delivered to young minds, is by its very nature pornographic. It destroys impressionable minds and confuses their developing sexuality;”

    “Now I know that homosexuality is lust and pornography wrapped into one.”

    I’m wondering what you all think of the above comments. I will be honest and tell you that Mr. Glatze’s article confirms what I believe to be generally true of male homosexuality.

    When I consider the following:

    1. the lewd content of gay ‘pride’ parades

    2. the obscene content of books about homosexuals such as Perks of a Wallflower (written for high school kids)

    3. The practices outlined in the Little Black Book for Boys (created by mainstream gay activists for kids)

    4. promiscuity statistics among male homosexuals

    5. The goals of gay activists as outlined in Beyond Marriage including legal recognition for multiple sex partners

    6. gay activists around the western world calling for the repeal of all age of consent laws (this was also part of the 1972 platform

    My impression of male homosexuality is that the behavior of male homosexuals is TYPICALLY compulsive, addictive, and pornographic. In other words there seems to be a very seedy underbelly to the gay movement.

    There are always exceptions so please don’t tell me not every homosexual is like that. I KNOW that. But what IS typical?

    I’m not trying to be argumentative. I just want to understand how you all see it.

  • http://boxturtlebulletin.com Jim Burroway

    Question, though, would they really be considered ‘evangelical gay Christians’ if they’ve abandoned evangelism? Further question, sorry…

    does your answer suggest that before the lamentable church response to AIDS, gay Christians WERE in fact evangelising?

    They consider themselves to be evangelical gay Christians, just as I consider myself to be a gay Catholic. But if sexuality were the ONLY thing that disqualifies one from their faith, then that ends up being a pretty one-dimensional view, in my opinion. I believe if you asked them, they’d tell you they didn’t abandon the faith, they’re clinging to it with everything they have despite all the pressures not to.

    As far as pre-AIDS, I was only speaking of my own observations. Sorry, but my personal observations don’t go back any further than that 😉

  • http://boxturtlebulletin.com Jim Burroway

    Terry,

    We’ve been over this in other threads. I don’t have the energy right now to tell you what you should already know. You need to stop looking at horror movies and get out more.

  • Eddy

    I’m not sure I get your point. I was referencing the fact that most of the gay Christians who post here will remind us of a gay life that is whole, happy, non-promiscuous and devoutly Christian. (See posts 35850, 35873, 35875, 35902, 35916 and 35923 for a variety of references to this ‘other’.) I am well-aware that there is A LOT of diversity out there. Many whole and happy gays, for example, have had a totally non-religious path. Many are non-promiscuous. I have a number of gay friends–mostly women–in LTR’s complete with children. I know other gays who identify more by their occupation or profession than by their gayness. Lots of variety!

    Actually, attending one Gay Pride Rally should convince any open-minded person of the diversities in the gay community. (In the Twin Cities ‘celebrate diversity’ was–and possibly still is–a Pride slogan.) Several years back as we watched the parade, a gay friend who relates to the community mostly through happy hour camaradarie wondered aloud “WHERE do all these people come from?” From the parade and festival crowd, it would seem that 90% or more DO NOT frequent gay bars. Some live quietly domestic lives while others are community involved…promoting safe-sex, addressing AIDS, singing in the Gay Men’s Chorus, playing in the Freedom Band, involved in the theatre culture, involved in a gay church, involved in ‘an affirming congregation’, part of a sports team or league. You’ve got your leather folks, your bears, your naturists, your twinks (LOL! I absolutely HATE that word!), your drag queens, transsexuals. Beyond that, you’ve still got the hustlers, the bar flys, the park and tea room cruisers. And, even with all this, there’s diversity I haven’t touched on here. Haven’t mentioned the karaoke addicts or the country line dancers. Some of these categories don’t include the women at all.

    If you were trying to twist what I was saying, I resent the tactic. If you are concerned that we aren’t really including some aspects of gayness in this discussion, please enlighten. We do tend to represent ‘two extremes’…perhaps we’ve been ignoring some others in our discussion.

    I’ve got six straight brothers. 3 of them fit the traditional ‘wife, kids, SUV’ version of straightness. Each of the other 3 is a different image of ‘straight’. 2 of them are ‘born again’—one is the ‘gung-ho’ church involved type; the other thinks of Jesus as his ‘home-boy’. This is just a sampling of the present day variety. Before everybody grew up and settled down, they each pursued their version of a satisfying straight life. Some similarities but a lot of differences too.

    LOL! I’ve also got 5 straight male cousins and 7 straight adult male nephews. (Yes, there are two that ‘we’re not quite sure about’ but I’m hunching straight on both.) A few seem to be ‘cut from the same cloth’ but the others are distinctively different versions of straight.

    I think it’s safe to say that I have the capacity to see beyond the label–straight or gay.

  • Rick Segreda

    “Rick – We have no idea at this point that any of the Drudge – Masters connection is accurate. I would urge you not to spread it unless confirmed or else you will be violating the Scriptures you quote.”

    Then you should have “urged” Mitchell not to “spread it” either. It is only when I highlighted the absurdity of a professional sinner supposedly being redeemed because he is no longer, supposedly, “gay,” that you became concerned. Now why is that?

  • http://positiveliberty.com Jon Rowe

    I suspect that the Masters connection is accurate. I came to that conclusion after reading his article. First, Glatze credits David Kupelian and his book “The Marketing of Evil” almost as a spiritual mentor. And Kupelian is part of Masters’ organization.

    Second, I’ve listened to many hours of Roy Masters, mainly for entertainment purposes, and know some of his “buzzwords” and teachings. Masters is politically arch-conservative and on the surface sounds like an evangelical Christian and tries to appeal (i.e., convert) them. Yet, on the inside, he has all of these New Age like teachings which make evangelicals view him as a heretical cult leader. Plus he denies the Trinity.

    Masters’, like the JWs, and some of the classical era unitarians, views Jesus as more of a perfect sinless man who came to set such an example for how to live, as opposed to an Incarnate God who died an Atoning death. As such, Masters claims to no longer sin (though he never said he is “without sin”).

    One of Masters’ buzzwords is getting in touch with your “holy Christ self.”

    To the conservative Christians on this site: Do your churches ever use the term “Christ self”? If you google the words “Christ self,” a bunch of New Age sites come up.

    And sure enough, from Glatze’s WND article, he writes:

    “Homosexuality allows us to avoid digging deeper, through superficiality and lust-inspired attractions – at least, as long as it remains ‘accepted’ by law. As a result, countless miss out on their truest self, their God-given Christ-self.”

    If Glatze really did turn to Masters for help, then according to the way evangelicals view things, a “false Christ” helped Glatze out of homosexuality.

  • luke

    I know what Michael Glatze is experiencing at the moment.

    I am 32 years old and I live in Brazil and I am what they call an “ex-gay”.

    For many years I was in the gay lifestyle and I know what it presents to those who struggle with same-sex attraction.

    It is not easy to believe in “ex-gays” but you can be sure it really exists: I am one of them!

    I wish I could share my story around the world and let people know that there is no rason to be afraid of the ex-gays testemonies: they are true!

    If you want to know more about me and the things I have learned in these 10 years out of homosexuality, please let me know.

    By the way, I am not just out of the lifestyle: I am free from same-sex attraction for 10 lovable years!

    I got married 6 years ago and we have a lovely daughter.

    You can e-mail me lucas.1910@hotmail.com if you want to.

    Best.

    Luke.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/ Warren

    Rick — You are correct. I should have done so. I asked Mitchell for documentation and he never replied.

    Jon however provides some circumstantial evidence that is quite interesting. I have written Mr. Glatze to ask more about this.

  • Teri

    Jim,

    Can you point me to one of those threads?

  • Teri

    Thank you Eddy. I will take a look at those posts.

    I’m not trying to twist what you or anyone is saying. I’m trying to understand your point of view.

    Like I said, I KNOW there are exceptions, but what is more common? When a typical high school kid is encouraged to be ‘come out of the closet’, is he more likely to go down your track or the other?

    Also, you talk a lot about diversity. Is there such thing as sexual perversity or is it ‘all good?’

  • http://www.BoxTurtleBulletin.com Jim Burroway

    Eddy.

    Re: I’m not sure I get your point…

    I know I can be dense sometimes. Who are you addressing? 😉

  • Scott

    Eddy, I wasn’t trying to twist your words at all. My apologies if it came across that way–the binary nature of the wording (and the general discussion sometimes) set me going. Thanks for your clarification.

    I just bristle at the ex-gay generalizations about being gay that was posited in the piece by Glatze.

    It is even more sad that this is coming from someone who worked (through the Young Gay America magazine) to provide distinctly non-pornographic media to a younger gay demographic. Such a sane vision and it addresses a need. What a contrast to the venom from him now.

  • Eddy

    Jim–LOL–my bad.

    I was referencing Scott in 36046 and forgot to say so!

    Teri–

    The word ‘pervert’ and its variations have been used for years to bash gay people. I think of it as a ‘value added’ word (that value being a negative one) that no longer is heard in its original sense. So, I don’t use it.

    I do feel that homosexuality is a distortion of God’s design and, people being people, some have distorted it immensely. But, for now, I’m trying to understand people OF FAITH and how they have integrated two things that I cannot*. These people are thoughtful, concerned, caring, loving and devout. I may be in line to question motives, timelines, etc. to enhance my understanding but it is NOT my place to pronounce judgment or grant absolution. I interpret the Bible one way; they interpret it another. I believe the orientation of an individual’s heart towards God is more important than what they believe on a particular issue.

    *Re the word ‘cannot’: I’m not saying it in the sense of stubbornness; it’s the way I’m wired. I’ve been re-examining how much of what I believe has been pre-programmed by the churches I’ve been involved with…particularly in my early days. WHAT IF I’ve got their Biblical rigidity and homophobia filtering my thoughts and studies? Why would I presume that I’m immune to indoctrination, if that is indeed what it is?

    So, currently, because I’m persuaded that it is sin, I ‘cannot’ embrace both a devout relationship with God and homosexuality at the same time. Conversely, a person who believes that ‘gay is the way God made them’ would be sinning to go my route. It would be equal to saying “Yeah, God, I believe you made me this way but because my church and family disagree, I reject YOUR plan and purpose for my life.”

    You asked how I would respond to the high school ‘coming out’ situation. ‘Coming out’, in the context of this site, means ’embracing your homosexuality’…so, if the kid was ‘coming out’, he’s already made a choice to embrace it. If his theological views were akin to mine AND he came to me for advice, I’d tell him of my experience but I’d also tell him of others like Michael B. (LOL—WITHOUT being snarky!) who once believed as I do and now believe differently. The rest would be in God’s hands.

    A few months ago, a close, conservative Christian friend wanted me to ‘talk some sense’ into her gay son. I learned that he’s bright, inquisitive, searching but is also evaluating how much of his parent’s faith is his faith. Rather than agree to have ‘the talk’, I gave the mom the link to this site where he could hear and evaluate diverse opinions before making a final decision. (Final decision? I’ve made a few that I’ve retracted over the years. I’m thinking, as long as we live and breath, few things are ‘final’.)

    As to how many, when presented with both messages, would go one way or another. I’d only be guessing. We live in a world where both sides are seldom, if ever, presented simultaneously.

  • Mike Homfray

    Its interesting that these stories all have a very consistent pattern.

    First, religion is involved

    Second, they always seem to have an absolutely terrible time and have the most lurid tales to tell – the formula is so consistent!

    Third, its like they are addicted to the activism and being in the public eye

    Fourth – you try actually confronting them and remind them of the truth – that they still think about Paul even as they lie next to Susan, and watch them ban you from their chatrooms, blogs and everything else they run.

    You have to feel sorry for them on one level – internalised homophobia is no fun. But at least in the UK their numbers are ever fewer as people realise that there is no reason to struggle and every reason to value the people we are.

  • Mary

    There is a correlation of smokers with lung cancer but finding the direct link has also been difficult. We do not know if those who are most attracted to smoking carry a specific gene or predispostion that allows them to acquire cancer more or exactly how the cigarettes cause the cancer. We do know there is a correlation.

    Sooooo, we do know there is a correlation between those who have a shift in sexual attraction/mood/behavior/attitude when there is a religious shift. Not sure if this is due to the religious faith or those who are predisposed to “finding” religion are more apt to shifts in sexual attraction than those who don’t??

    Shifts in attraction do happen. Gay people just don’t like the idea. And any indication that there may be a small portion of one’s thoughts/attractions/etc… that has a gay theme means that person is gay! Obviously – not.

  • Jayhuck

    Marty,

    The only people I know who actually read and liked “the marketing of evil”, were those who were radically conservative to begin with. Its fundamental premise is biased, and it twists research so that it says what they want it to say – much like how Exodus twists research – even when the researchers themselves have come out and said, that is NOT what I meant. I know enough about the book to stay away from it – I enjoy reading well-researched articles when they are peer-reviewed and accepted, but Marketing is not.

  • Jayhuck

    As for Mr. Glatz, he not only sounds like your typical, run-of-the-mill, new ex-gay, but he also sounds like a zealot. His wholesale demonizing of gay people is a dead giveaway for that. I’m still struggling to figure out what the big deal is with him

  • Jayhuck

    Eddy,

    I just wanted to say I truly enjoyed your 36090 post to Teri. Thanks for sharing that :) I agree with everything you said.

  • Mitchell

    “He didn’t mention anything about Roy Masters or being gay or anything like it. Your misinformation isn’t helping anyone here.”

    You are simply mistaken I am saddened that kids nowadays do so little in the area of research. I have followed Drudge since ’89 when he was first starting in Hollywood. Check out this document which mentions Matt: http://www.fhu.com/books/emotions/NegativeEmotions.pdf

    Matt did an extensive interview with Radar Magazine when it first started and indeed mentioned Roy’s meditation excercise.

  • Mitchell

    “I have no reason to think that Glatze has anything to do with Masters, who is not at all popular among conservative Christians ”

    Again, you are seriously mistaken. Roy is himself considered a very strict Christian. He was a major factor of Laura Schlessinger leaving Judaism for a more Christ-centered worship. This is all in the public record, you just have to do a lot of research, talk to those involved, and also listen to their broadcasts. Do you even remember when Drudge had Roy on his tv show multiple times?

  • jag

    Teri –

    wow, the preconceptions! They all seem to be media images, and I’m assuming (maybe I’m wrong here), these are not friends or colleagues of yours that you are drawing your information.

    let’s see…for me, I draw some of my conclusions from statistics, and others from observation. What I see? The guy beside me in the office who has been with his partner for over 20 years, the woman across from me who is now married with kids who was raised by two men, etc…I see pretty normal stuff.

    Sure, there is promiscuity among some…just like if we were to look at the promiscuity of college-aged boys or heterosexual young men. I’m not sure how those stats differ – but I’ll look into that.

    The one point I did want to make was that when we talk about those engaging in same-sex relationships, many are women also – let’s not forget that.

    Also, I would think that believing the things you do, you would see the opportunity for a committed relationship as being a good thing for the gay community – one that fosters monogamy and “settling.” I am assuming you may not be a big supporter of same-sex marriage.

    I hope you will take the time to know the gay population that isn’t out at the bars (after all, would you want to meet your future spouse there of any sex?), who aren’t into pornography, etc…

    check out reconciling churches (methodist) who have large same-sex couples as populations, unitarian churches or the metropolitan church. All have congregants who have same-sex attractions and likely are not into the things you describe.

    There are a lot of gay christians out there.

  • http://www.exgaywatch.com David Roberts

    This is all in the public record, you just have to do a lot of research, talk to those involved, and also listen to their broadcasts.

    No Mitchell, since you are making the claims, you get to do the research and present reasonable evidence to back up your claims that we can then verify. To date the only “evidence” you presented, and I still had to find it myself, was an article in Radar Magazine which in fact did not say anything you claimed it did (see comment 35882 earlier in this thread).

    Your record so far is not good.

  • Eddy

    Jayhuck,

    Thanks for your comments re post 36090. I am in regular dialogue with several former EXODUS leaders and occasionally send some of my blogs to them as ‘food for thought’ and discussion. I’ve just decided to send that one to them for their comments.

  • Timothy Kincaid

    Just out of curiosity, does anyone take WND seriously? I didn’t think even conservatives did.

    Oh absolutely.

    It was the article about homosexuality being caused by soy products that convinced me that this was my new source for Truth.

  • Jayhuck

    LOL – I do remember that article Timothy. :)

  • Timothy Kincaid

    Teri,

    OK, I’ll bite. Here are the specific responses to your points:

    1. Some content in gay pride parades is a bit lewd – pretty much consistent with a Mardi Gras parade, but much less than a Vegas show. Generally, lewd content consists of attractive men in swimsuits dancing on a float provided by a business and is seen only in major metropolitan areas. There will also be the occasional senseless person who wants to be noticed. The vast overwhelming majority of such parades – that which is provided by gay organizations – is frankly pretty boring and not at all objectionable.

    2. I’ve not read Perks of a Wallflower but may I suggest that a thoughtful person would not extrapolate generalities about a population from a fiction source such as a novel. As far as obscenity, it seems that those who have reviewed the book when presented with objections, have generally not found it to be obscene.

    What did you think when you personally read this book?

    3. The Little Black Book for Boys is described as:

    …the book is a combination of poetry, illustrations, and first-hand experiences from young men, recommended for young men between the ages of 11 and 24.

    “It’s a book written by young men, for young men,” said Marlon Merraro, Manager of the Youth Arcade at St. Stephen’s. “It deals with issues around sexual assault, STI’s, healthy relationships and body image…a host of issues that young men face in the community.”

    I’m curious, Teri, as to what you found objectionable? And considering that the release date is September 2007, did you get an advance copy? Or are you just repeating slandar?

    4. There are no promiscuity statistics among male homosexuals

    5. Beyond Marriage is a small subset of the gay community that tends to see itself as “progressive”. There are welcome to their opinions – but they are in the minority.

    6. Gay activists around the western world do not call for the repeal of all age of consent laws. Whoever it was that met in 1972 (I’ve never heard of any of them) they certainly don’t represent gay people today.

    OK, I know that you really didn’t just have six concerns that you wanted address. I know you really think that these are just illustrations of the evil depravity of the horrible nasty homosexuals. But it might come as a surprise to you, Teri, that these six items are illustrative – just not in the way you thought.

    These six items do clearly illustrate the lengths to which anti-gay activists will go to lie, spin, and stretch the truth in any way possible to disparage gay people.

    You seem intelligent – just ill informed. So I would encourage you to open your mind and really listen to the people here. Try not to assume that the things you have been told are facual. Or often even partly factual.

    The truth is that gay folks are, well, pretty much like other folks – some good, some bad, some hedonistic, some ascetic, some pleasant, some nasty. Before you think that gay people do this or are like that, ask yourself if that is something you would to or are like. If the answer is “no”, then you can probably assume that your presumption is just based on someone else’s falsehood.

  • Mary

    Timothy,

    I always found as a lesbian that I was suppossed to accept all the other sexual behaviors of others if I wanted my lesbianism accepted. And come on – we all ran/run into strange things whenever we went to a gay function. I went to an awards banquet for GLBT community – you know where they give awards for best bar, most out gay, best civic contribution etc.. and the MC’s made jokes about how they were the most sought after couple to have sex with. Granted – not everyone is doing that – but it does make it kinda difficult to stand by your beliefs in that environment where anything goes.

    And if you go to the gay men’s health site you will see alot of advice for non-committed sexual relations. And how do you suppose gay men are the highest ranking when it comes to STD’s – is it because they all have and keep committed relationships?? Or how about the relationships between men that allow extra sexual contact outside of the relationship (committed relationship) . One need only go to a gay men’s site to find out what is going on – not a pornography site mind you.

    So, while gays stand and say “Not me! Not my friends.” I have to challenge that – since I saw it first hand. Maybe there are no stats – but the evidence is pretty overwhelming by gays own admission (even if it is at a gays only rewards ceremony)

  • Mary

    oops – awards ceremony. I’ve had a rough day.

  • jayhuck

    Mary,

    Even more reason to encourage gay men to remain committed by having the state recognize their unions and bestow on them the benefits of marriage :)

  • Mary

    Jayhuck,

    So gay men are not in committed relationships because the state does not recognize them??? Is that the same for lesbians, unmarried heterosexuals, elderly couples who don’t marry to keep their retirement and social security benefits but set up a houselhold??

  • jayhuck

    Mary,

    I was just trying to emphasize that one of the reasons we have state-recognized marriage is to encourage couples to remain together -have the state recognize gay couples can only work to their advantage by helping them remain together.

    I most definitely was not saying that gay men are not in committed relationships – many are. And I think its a testament to their strength and resilience that they can and do remain together despite all the obstacles society throws in their way.

  • http://www.exgaywatch.com David Roberts

    @Mary

    So gay men are not in committed relationships because the state does not recognize them??? Is that the same for lesbians, unmarried heterosexuals, elderly couples who don’t marry to keep their retirement and social security benefits but set up a houselhold??

    So now marriage is not important in general? No one said there are not many gay couples in long term, committed relationships – obviously there are – but society and the state encourage marriage for many reasons. Do you honestly think the heterosexual population would not be more chaotic if marriage were not available to them?

    Granted – not everyone is doing that – but it does make it kinda difficult to stand by your beliefs in that environment where anything goes.

    So what on earth were you doing there?

    Mary, I’m beginning to think debating from all sides here is some kind of hobby for you. And by the way, were is that document you promised a couple of months ago? The one that was supposed to explain all those inconsistencies which surfaced during your time at XGW?

  • Mary

    David Roberts,

    You banned me from XGW. So, I cannot post my answers there or an e-mail with a word doc there. Also, you give me the creeps by the way you are sooo insistent. You really border on the obsessive with me. Please stop. You don’t show anyone else this much attention and you’re focus looks very creepy. Others agree. I am just an anonymous person who does not make headlines or join political groups or take money from any group for my comments. I don’t write books or articles for public attention/approval/money/gain etc… I am just a person who blogs for free. I am publicly asking you to stop your incessant haranguing of me.

    What looks like debate from all sides is being misinterpreted. I don’t follow along the usual demarcated lines of debate for christians, conservatives, gays, ex gays, or ex ex gays. I follow my own path.

    And I think marriage is important and do support gay marriages. I don’t know if it is going to make promiscuity among gay men lessen. I don’t know if the argument (in general) that marriage keeps one monogamous is accurate. It keeps couples in a financial committment and social committment – but monogamous…??? I don’t know.

    And yes, there are some gay men that are in monogamous, committed relationships – I did not say anything contrary to that. I did say that there is a high proportion of gay men that do not follow that. And that is demonstrated throughout gay communities. And yes KUDOS to those that make a committed monogamous relationship work – if that is what they want.

  • http://www.exgaywatch.com David Roberts

    Mary, one can debate certain positions without necessarily holding a mainstream opinion. And I don’t remember suggesting that you wrote for money, fame, etc. I said it seemed to be your hobby. You tend to jump in the middle and argue all around. This has the effect of frustrating the discussion, and it makes it appear that you are not really serious about getting to the truth but just like to debate. Your answer on marriage above only leads me to believe that more strongly. When I read all your comments on a subject, they all seem to negate each other and nothing gets said.

    As to what got you banned at XGW, I’m not going to discuss it here because it’s off topic. It’s not hidden as we left it all up, but I doubt if you really want all that discussed here anyway. As to your claims of obsession, I actually don’t ask you many questions at all here – but when I do you don’t respond so it does look rather awkward. If you want to be in the discussion, then you have to answer questions put to you, even if only to say that you would rather not answer. The only way to guarantee you won’t be asked is to create your own blog and write there.

    The explanation you promised and to which I referred earlier was offered by you here, so I don’t see how your status at XGW affects that. However, I suspect you will simply reply that I am badgering you and avoid the question, so what’s the use.

  • luke

    David Roberts,

    Your post ( 36340) says:

    “No Mitchell, since you are making the claims, you get to do the research and present reasonable evidence to back up your claims that we can then verify. To date the only “evidence” you presented, and I still had to find it myself, was an article in Radar Magazine which in fact did not say anything you claimed it did (see comment 35882 earlier in this thread).”

    I want you to know that at the moment I am doing exactly what you asked Mitchell to do: researching and presenting resoanable evidence about the change. I am writing a book to present what happened inside my mind and how it changed my way of thinking, talking and walking. I have done a deep research and I will present it in the near future. Everyone will be able to read and understand what is homosexuality (same-sex attraction) and how faith works in the brain of those who experience a radical change, just like I did. It won´t be a religious book. I won´t talk about politics (rights and so on). Instead, it will be only a rational explanation for the change. I am the cientist and the subject of my own research. Keep in touch and you will know everything I have to say about this. By the way, I have posted by two different e-mails: lucas.1910@hotmail.com and claudiomultifocal@yahoo.com

  • Nemario

    Research shows that societal acceptance seems to do nothing but allow the lifestyle to break free. This new type of marriage is more about legitimization of their lifestyle, not necessarily monogomy.

    A Dutch study in 1994 by Deenen AA et al. in the Archives Sexual Behavior found that the average number of outside partners per year of alternative partnerships was 7.1.

  • http://www.exgaywatch.com David Roberts

    I want you to know that at the moment I am doing exactly what you asked Mitchell to do: researching and presenting resoanable evidence about the change. I am writing a book to present what happened inside my mind and how it changed my way of thinking, talking and walking.

    Luke, I think you may have misunderstood the context. I was referring to Mitchell’s repeated claim that Matt Drudge had sought and received guidance from Roy Masters for “ssa.” When claiming such a thing as fact in this venue, one must supply reasonable evidence to back it up and not just say “go search for it, it’s out there.” Hope that helps.

  • http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com Jim Burroway

    That study you mention was a convenience sample of 229 couples. This was not a representative sample, nor could it be with such a samll sample. The authors note that the average was skewed by a small minority of those couples.

    That’s the problem with convenience samples. If you want to find a sample to denigrate relationships of any particular group of people, it’s easy to do. Pick another convenience sample, say Berger, RM. (1990) who did a survey of members of the Gay Couples Network, and you find a monogamy rate in 96%. Again, not representative, but neither is yours.

    So what did this prove? If you want to find bad statistics, it’s easy to do. I should know. I found tons of statistics of all the horrible things that straight people do. And all of it is backed by legitimate scientific sources from some of the best medical journals. It’s all right here:

    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,015.pdf

    But none of that has anything to do with my life. Or yours. So let’s just cut the phony statistics that don’t mean anything, and let’ts talk instead about real people — neighbors, fathers, mothers, all of that. Leave the bogeymen out of it.

  • jayhuck

    Nemario,

    I guess I don’t understand the purpose of your post. There are thousands, if not millions of straight couples who aren’t monogamous either, yet they get the benefits of marriage- so why should monogamy have anything to do with it.

    And what about the gay couples who ARE monogamous, who have children – shouldn’t they be afforded the benefits of marriage, even if we don’t call it that?

  • jayhuck

    Luke,

    That’s going to make for pretty biased, non-peer-reviewed, unscientific research – I mean if you’re going to research yourself.

    And, again, we’ve listened to many people claim they had experienced real and lasting change, even going as far as getting married and having kids, only to find out later they were doing nothing but suppressing their desires.

    If suppression works for you and allows you to live within your value system, then that is fine – but since there is no scientific proof that true and lasting change exists, we all have to interpret your claims, and the similar claims of others, for ourselves.

  • Sonja Dalton

    I believe this is the “Little Black Book” to which Teri referred:

    http://www.massresistance.org/docs/issues/black_book/black_book_inside.html

    Personally, I find it 100% objectionable.

    It was distributed to kids in MA in 2005, so TK’s claim that it’s not yet in print is bogus.

    (And I suspect he knows that…)

  • http://www.exgaywatch.com David Roberts

    3. The practices outlined in the Little Black Book for Boys (created by mainstream gay activists for kids)

    As I remember, there was nothing mainstream about it. And to this day I’ve never seen a confirmed report that it ever made it into the hands of kids. I think most people, gay or straight, would find what is displayed at the link Sonja provided objectionable if distributed to minors. I certainly do.

    Using bizarre exceptions to prove anything about an entire segment of the population is just plain wrong, even evil. Unfortunately there are plenty who are willing to do just that. Lies are lies, no matter who tells them or for what purpose.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/ Warren

    David – Here is what the Boston Globe reported:

    “Fenway Community Health regrets accidentally making available a small number of copies of the `Little Black Book,’ an HIV prevention publication for gay and bisexual men over the age of 18, at an event where young people were present,” said Dr. Stephen Boswell, Fenway’s president and CEO.

    I do think it is a very poor public health booklet and was widely criticized outside of MA. Inside though it was defended. However, it was not created for kids.

    I know you would not approve of it. I suspect many gay people would not approve of it. I would really like to see those who object to homosexuality find more creative and legitimate ways to voice their views than to find something obnoxious and then generalize it to all others.

  • jayhuck

    Warren,

    I’d very much like to see the same thing, but let’s face it, those kinds of stunts are what sell tickets to Exodus events, and why groups like Exodus and FotF will continue to take 3 steps back for every 2 steps forward. Things won’t change at all until these kinds of things stop.

  • Nemario

    I think Terri’s point is that we’re seeing patterns. It’s an anything goes mindset, like in NGLTF’s 2006 “Creating Change”, Matt Foreman lays out “that gay agenda”. “Sexual freedom” according to their “vision” is a human right (right now they’re apparently focused on women and girls having the right to choose), and while right now they’re focused on marriage “equality” and all the rights that come with it, their “vision” is that social benefits should not depend on marital status.

  • Timothy Kincaid

    3. The practices outlined in the Little Black Book for Boys (created by mainstream gay activists for kids)

    Let’s have a quick fact check about the “Little Black Book”.

    1. The Massachusetts story is about the Little Black Book, not The Little Black Book for Boys.

    2. The book was not written for kids nor was it to have been distributed to kids.

    3. Mass Resistance simply lied (they often do) when they said it was distributed to hundreds of elementary age kids. That didn’t happen. It was included in a stack of resourse materials on a table that accidentally (and stupidly) was not reviewed for age appropriateness. They estimate that 10 copies were brought – and as of now neither Mass Resistance nor anyone else can show that a single copy ended up in the hands of a child.

    4. While the pamphlet is (in my opinion) not appropriate for high school aged kids (or at least not when I was in high school), this was the audience that would have been exposed to the book – not younger children. According to the organizers, there were a handful of younger-than-high-school kids there.

    5. There is a book being created called The Little Black Book for Boys which actually is created for kids. It will be out in September. As far as I know, it is age appropriate.

    6. The purpose of the book is HIV prevention and the target age was 18 to early 20’s. The language and nature of the book is more graphic than I prefer … but I’m not the target audience. And the language is certainly no more graphic than the music that their audience is exposed to daily. And while the pamphlet provides non-judgmental advice on things that I’m a bit judgmental about (both sexual and drug related), the information in it may save lives (a quick review provided info I didn’t know). On it’s own, the Little Black Book may be questionable in taste and wisdom (I wouldn’t have done it that way) – but not exactly objectionable. The only way to make it so is to claim that it was distributed to children… so that’s what was claimed.

    But I think Sonja knows all this… and just doesn’t care. It’s much more fun to repeat a myth. Teri, alas, was just the victim of the lies that people like Mass Resistance spread.

  • luke

    Jayhuck, in yourpost # 37050 you said:

    “That’s going to make for pretty biased, non-peer-reviewed, unscientific research – I mean if you’re going to research yourself.”

    I want you to know that I am not going to research myself, only. Maybe my poor English lead you to understand I would.

    I am searching bio, psyco and sociological theories and evidences for homosexuality (same-sex attraction) and change.

    At the moment, my research nas not been peer-reviewed because I am not at any Research Institute or something like that. I want to publish my own story and to present the “state of the art” on this issue.

    Many people here tell things that can´t be prooved. Those who thinks “there’s no ex-gay” are believing in myths, not in science.

    The best post here up to now was made by Mary, who said:

    “Ex ex gays exist, gays exist and ex gays exist.  Saying it ain’t so – doesn’t make it so.”

    If you are going to take science as a democratic way of searching and presentig what it had found, you are about to accept Mary’s point of view.

    My change occurred TEN years ago and I can tell you it was radical, complete and once and for all!

    To say that I am “supressing my desires” means nothing to me. By the way, I think no one could only “supress” their desires and to live a healthy life with his wife and kids. I think it couldn´t be possible to me because I love sex. I really enjoy it. All the time.

    I think I couldn´t being “supressing” my fantasies… I mean, I don´t have homo dreams, homo arousal and so on.

    What do you have to say?

    This is the point: I am healed!

    Althought people don´t like this expression (healed) I don´t care to use it to express what have happened to me. I don´t need to be “politically correct” and I won´t.

    If there is “no scientific proof that true and lasting change exists” it is just a matter of “agenda”. Changed men are not interested in “being an object” for research centres.

    By the way, there will never be a scientific proof that “true” and “long lasting” change exists… someone will always be free to say “this is not true, really” or “ten years is not a lasting change” or “twenty years is not a lasting change” and so on.

    I think there is no need to argue with those who do not desire to change. I am doing my job to present an alternative for those who WANT to change. I am not talking about religion and my work is not based only on my personal story. People will get surprised when ( if ) they read my book because they will see that the knowledge about change is all around but they just haven´t seen it because they are spending their time in fights and empty talk.

    It is not a matter of “finding the truth” but to present an true alternative for those who are searching for an way out.

    That’s all!

    Luke (Claudio)

  • Peter

    The man is a fraud and a coward.

    He is nothing but a casualty in the anti-gay backlash that has seized the nation.

    I pity him, as he will undoubtedly look back on his life one day and come to realize he has profoundly betrayed his gay brothers and sisters.

    Though I am struggling to have an open mind and compassion for this guy, for the most part, I am revolted.

    The guy needs to deal with his being fucked up on a stage that isn’t public, that much is for certain.