ABC News: Anti-Homosexuality Bill causes global uproar

Tonight, Nightline is covering Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill. The preview is an article on the ABC News website, extensively quoting Martin Ssempa and Scott Lively.

First a catchy way to begin a news story:

Standing onstage in black velvet robes, despite the stifling heat in the open-air church, Pastor Martin Ssempa’s face is a mask of disgust.

“Anal licking!,” he shouts, directing the crowd’s attention to the images of hardcore gay pornography that he’s projecting via his laptop. “That is what they are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms.”

“Everything having to do with eating of poop…heterosexuals do not eat poop,” Ssempa said. “And if they do, they are misguided, they are not real heterosexuals. We don’t practice, that’s an abomination. It’s like sex with a dog, sex with a cow; it’s evil.”

Wow, where do you go from there? The story then weaves material from Ssempa, Scott Lively and Val Kalende, a Uganda lesbian.

The bill was introduced several months after a visit by several American evangelicals, who spoke at a conference called the “Seminar on Exposing the Homosexual Agenda.”

One of them was Scott Lively, a pastor from Temecula, Calif., who believes that countries like Uganda can still protect themselves from what he sees as the scourge of the gay agenda.

“These are good Christians; better Christians than there are here in the states,” says Lively. “They care about each other. And I think the reason they’re pushing so hard on this law is that they don’t want to see what happened to our country happen over there.”

He told the conference’s audience, made up of teachers, social workers, and politicians that “even though the majority of homosexuals are not oriented towards young people, there’s a significant number who are. And when they see a child from a broken home, it’s like they have a flashing neon sign over their head.”

Lively, who is the president of Defend the Family, is also the author of a book called “The Pink Swastika”, which argues that the Nazi Party was a homosexual movement.

Then David Bahati tries the same line he has used before: the bill doesn’t say what it says.

The bill also calls for seven years in prison for “attempt to commit homosexuality,” five years for landlords who knowingly house gays, three years for anyone, including parents, who fail to hand gay children over to the police within 24 hours and the extradition of gay Ugandans living abroad.

The bill’s sponsor, David Bahati, now insists the death penalty only applies to homosexual pedophiles.

“The whole thing has been distorted, ” he said. “And we know that some copies of the bill have been circulated on the Internet, which are incorrect.”

Bahati defends the bill’s stringency. “Well it can sound tough to some people but it’s acceptable to our community here. Remember that here in Uganda, 95 percent of our population does not support homosexuality.”

If anyone from ABC News is reading, please put the Uganda Gazette copy of the bill on your website. Here it is. This is the official copy. I asked Parliamentary research service staffer Charles Tuhaise if I had the official copy and he confirmed that I do. Tuhaise also confirmed that the bill is about more than punishing pedophiles when he said to me:

…you have read the Bill and know that its object is to outlaw all same-sex sexual conduct. The question of “consenting adults” therefore does not arise. All same-sex sexual conduct is proscribed under the Bill.

Can’t get much clearer than that.

Where is the situation now? ABC News is reporting that the bill will be debated later this month.

But the outrage in the West may mean the bill gets watered down or even killed. The Ugandan parliament will hold hearings on it later this month.

As for Lively, he says if they drop the death penalty, he’ll actually endorse it. Whether the bill passes or not, the culture wars – both at home and abroad – promise to continue raging on.

According to a source in the Parliament, the bill has not been reviewed by committees and is not scheduled for any action at this point. That could change of course, but clearly the bill has been slowed down.

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  • http://www.exodusinternational.org Alan Chambers

    I am disappointed that Exodus won’t be heard in this piece. Sadly, Don Schmierer declined the interview and our request to go on record with ABC was denied. I would have loved nothing better than to share our disdain for this bill and apologize for going anywhere near such a horrible conference.

  • http://www.wthrockmorton.com Warren

    Thanks, Alan, that is reassuring.

  • Michael Bussee

    I would have loved nothing better than to share our disdain for this bill and apologize for going anywhere near such a horrible conference.

    Yes, reassuring. And the first time in twelve months that I have heard the world “apologize”. Thanks. Now, take the next steps. (1) Take Warren’s advice (instead of ignoring it like you did before the conference) and say “We were wrong in what we told you. Our board member should have made it clear in Kampala. On behalf of Exodus International and the entire Board, we apologize and officialliy denounce criminaliztion and forced treament.”

    (2) Make it policy – a clear, written, posted policy that all members, affiliates and Board Members agree to abide by. Now would be a very good time, seeing as how you won’t have the opportunity with ABC news. Their refusal to let you upsets me greatly. I plan to contact ABC news personally and give them a piece of my mind for not letting Exodus set the record straight on where you guys really stand.

  • Michael Bussee

    I wll do all I can to let as many people as I can know that you “would have loved nothing better than to share your disdain for this bill and apologize for going anywhere near such a horrible conference.”

    In fact, I will quote you verbatim — no spin — when I call ABC news. Is it OK with you if I also say that Exodus is officially opposed to what it calls for — namely criminalization and forced treatment? I would not want to be accused of mis-representing Exodus’ position.

  • Michael Bussee

    Just emailed ABC news to complain that Alan was not given the opportunity to set the record straight. Also, contacted the News Editor. Here is what I wrote:

    I am one of the orginal founders of Exodus International — one of the organizations that helped cause this Global Uproar. Some background: My ministry hosted the conference where Exodus was created. I thought we were helping people bvecome “ex-gay”. I was wrong.

    I left Exodus in 1979 when I realized that no one was becoming heterosexual, that I was still gay — and that many people were being harmed. I have been an outspoken critic of Exodus ever since.

    Today, Alan Chambers, current Presidet of Exodus International, posted a claim that Exodus was DENIED the opportunity to clearly state its position against this law. Is this true? Why would ABC news decline such a reasonable request? Why not let him speak?

    Here is Mr. Chambers quote and a link to his post:

    “Alan Chambers ~ Mar 10, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    I am disappointed that Exodus won’t be heard in this piece. Sadly, Don Schmierer declined the interview and our request to go on record with ABC was denied. I would have loved nothing better than to share our disdain for this bill and apologize for going anywhere near such a horrible conference.”

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2010/03/10/abc-news-anti-homosexuality-bill-causes-global-uproar/comment-page-1/#comment-243685

    Why not let him speak?

    Here’s a link for anyone else who agrees that it was wrong for ABC News to deny Alan the opportunity.:

    http://abcnews.go.com/WN/anti-homosexuality-bill-uganda-global-uproar/comments?type=story&id=10045436

  • Michael Bussee

    Just contacted several folks who might be helpful in persuading ABC News to let Alan clear things up. Perhaps it will help.

  • Michael Bussee

    Interesting that Don Scmierer would say that this Bill deserved all the media attention it could get — and then declined to give it.

    What is true, however, and worth all the news media coverage possible, is the tragic nature of and heartbreaking potential this bill holds.

    http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2009/12/03/rachel-maddow-uganda-me-guest-post-by-don-schmierer/

  • Michael Bussee

    Some friends have pointed out to me that it might be proper journalistic practice to want official statements from the Board of Exodus — which they have not given — or a first hand account from one who actually took part — not just Alan’s personal opinion. With that in mind, ABC News may have been right to decline Alan’s request.

  • Michael Bussee

    If Alan really “would have loved” to express “disdain” and “apologize”, perhaps he can urge the Board to do it. I don’t understand why they would not honor such a request from their own leader.

  • Michael Bussee

    I wonder if Alan isn’t kinda disappointed in Don and the Board about this? I would be if I were in his position.

  • anne

    I am very saddened by what is happening in Uganda caused by Scott Lively. He goes to my country and preaches hatrade to the people of my country who have gone through so many years of suffering! This is what dutch did to South Africa, Zimbabwe to mention a few countries! We do not want you to take advantage of my country and preach what you can not preach in USA. I am an american citizen and I come from Uganda. Do not spread hatrade please. I watched you on tv spreading hatrade and to poor people. Who are you to judge people? God accepts all of us sinners! Did God send you to Uganda to create this ugly environment? What if your child or grandchild was gay? Would you take him to Uganda on your vile trips? Look at yourself first and ask yourself what you are doing to these poor people. All I ask you is to leave our country alone. You wanna help Uganda, maybe you should give aid to poor children you wanna kill!

  • Michael Bussee

    Tonight, Dianne Sawyer and ABC news mentioned Nazi-revsionsist, Scott Lively, by name and interviewed him on camera regarding his role in Uganda. They did not name the other Christian Evangelicals who spoke at the conference on the “Homosexual Agenda” — nor did they mention the organizations of which the other two men are representatives or members.

    Here’s a factual and accurate timeline, with the names, photographs and stories of the other two “evangelical Christians” — and of Exodus’ admittedly “late” response to openly oppose the law or to apologize — as Alan Chambers of Exodus said above that he would have “loved” to do.

    BTW — I believe Alan Chambers used the word “apologize” for the very first time today on this blog — a full year after the “horrible conference” in Kampala — the same conference they previously praised their Board Member for attending.

    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/slouching-toward-kampala

    Alan Chambers told us today that Don Schmierer, Exodus Board member, was asked by ABC News to appear, but declined. Curiously, ABC news made no mention of their request or of Don Schmierer’s “declining” to be interviewed. I understand that ABC news may have asked the Exodus Board for an official statement — not just Alan Chambers’ personal opionion — but that the Board would not do so. Here is Alan’s statement on this thread today:

    Alan Chambers ~ Mar 10, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    I am disappointed that Exodus won’t be heard in this piece. Sadly, Don Schmierer declined the interview and our request to go on record with ABC was denied. I would have loved nothing better than to share our disdain for this bill and apologize for going anywhere near such a horrible conference.

    Here is Exodus Board member, Don Schmeirer’s full statement in which he says:

    What is true, however, and worth all the news media coverage possible, is the tragic nature of and heartbreaking potential this bill holds.

    http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2009/12/03/rachel-maddow-uganda-me-guest-post-by-don-schmierer/Sadly, He declined to say it to ABC News. Since Exodus either was not given or declined the opportunity to tell their full story directly to CBS news, I would invite Alan Chambers and the entire board of Exodus International to answer questions here — on this blog — to officially oppose this bill and to officially renounce criminalization and forced “treatment”. I would also invite them to do what their Board Member, Don Schmierer said OUGHT to be done: speak out publicly and officially, renouncing the bill and apologizing for going “anywhere near such a horrible conference” — in order to make their position clear and to attract “all the news media coverage possible”, to expose “the tragic nature of and heartbreaking potential this bill holds.” Do it here. Do it everywhere they can. Say it directly to the people of Uganda, as Dr. Throckmorton urged months ago — “We were WRONG in what we told you.”

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  • Michael Bussee

    Excuse, me. My vision in poor and I sometimes type in error. Here’s the link to Don Schmierer’s statement, in the event that my typo made connecting to it impossible: http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2009/12/03/rachel-maddow-uganda-me-guest-post-by-don-schmierer/

  • Michael Bussee

    And of course, I meant ABC news, not CBS. Thanks to ABC for their coverage of this very important story.

  • Pingback: Box Turtle Bulletin » Exodus President Wants To Apologize for Ugandan Conference. So What’s Holding Him Back?

  • Michael Bussee

    No more excuses. No more delays. Do it now.

    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/10/20990#comment-64100

  • Michael Bussee

    Never ruin an apology with an excuse. ~ Kimberly Johnson

  • Lynn David

    Sexual terrorism – Martin Ssempa. I’ve heard the same said before.

    Yes, Mr Lively, it does mean you hate homosexuals.

    Honestly… I’m getting too old for this and all I wanted was a life with a little love in it. I didn’t know that the fight for that meant I had to take on nations.

  • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe Brain

    Lynn – what about me? I’m not even gay!

    But I can’t pass by the wayside. Not and look at myself in the mirror in the morning and see myself as a half-decent human being. Some injustices I can ignore, the situation’s unclear, or there’s nothing I could do anyway, all good excuses for apathy and not doing what I should be doing. But sometimes I can’t fool myself that way, it’s too obvious.

    So yes, I take on Nations, Religious Groups, Political Groups, Judiciaries, whatever. Our main enemies are ignorance and irrational fear anyway, the rest are just guises they wear to exert power.

    A Christian would no doubt say that Jesus loves you, that you have that love in your life. I’m no Christian, but it may be true. Know that people care for you, strangers you’ve never met.

    And may you have love a little closer and more personal than that.

  • Michael Bussee

    I am disappointed that Exodus won’t be heard in this piece. Sadly, Don Schmierer declined the interview and our request to go on record with ABC was denied. I would have loved nothing better than to share our disdain for this bill and apologize for going anywhere near such a horrible conference. — AlanChambers, Exodus President.

    What is true, however, and worth all the news media coverage possible, is the tragic nature of and heartbreaking potential this bill holds. — Don Schmiere, Exodus board member

    That’s TWO board members. Randy Thomas signed the Musceveni letter, That’s THREE. Alan speaks of “our” request and “our” disdain. Unless he is using the royal “we”, I take this to mean the apology is also plural – that several members of Exodus want to do this.

    How many more Exodus board members do these three men need to get permission to speak officially on behalf of Exodus? Who’s stopping them? How strongly are they working to get the Board to let them?

    Surely, the three who have individually expressed their horror and apology could use their conbined influence on the Board to get this done.

    And if Alan Chambers is sincere (and I seriously doubt he is at this point) why don’t we help him contact some OTHER major news outlets to help THEM express Exodus’ official “disdain” and “apology”? Maybe Rachel Maddow would be interested in giving them the opportunity to do what he claims he would “love nothing better” to do.

    Surely, there must be some way for Exodus to do what it’s President would “love” to do. Tell you what. I’ll help. I have plenty of time. I could devote several hours a day to helping Alan find an national/international platform.

    Maybe Warren would be willing to help too, since he co-signed the letter to Musceveni. Tomorrow, I will start calling news agencies and let them know that Alan would love the opportunity to do what ABC news would not let him do. How about that?

  • Michael Bussee

    At first, I was encouraged. Alan Chambers and Randy Thomas joined the Facebook group to oppose the Bill. Then the letter to the Ugandan President — and a promise from Alan Chambers that Exodus’ efforts to oppose the Bill “would not stop at the bill”. Then Schmierer saying it deserved “all the media attention” it coud get. Now, Don takes it back and Alan plays victim.

    NOTHING AT ALL for months and months — just the sounds of crickets chirping. Now he says he would “love nothing better” than to express Exodus’s “disdain” and to “apologize.” He has had an entire year. Time to put his money where his prevaricating mouth is. There are lots of other microphones available if he and the Board of Exodus were truly serious about this.

    He is playing victim — and it’s disgusting — saying in effect “we would really like to but ABC News won’t let us.” Why doesn’t he call Rachel Maddow and ask for the chance — if he truly would “love nothing better”? Exodus can sure find the ways and means to express itself when it really wants to.

  • Michael Bussee

    They could start here. They already had time to brag about their wonderful conference — the Love Won Out event in San Diego — this past weekend. Did it real quick, too.

    The whole page looks slick and well-produced. How about a whole page to express their official disdain and apology for “going anywhere near the horrible conference” in Uganda? What’s stoppinig him from doing that which he claims he would “love nothing better?”

    http://blog.exodusinternational.org/

  • Michael Bussee

    On the blog above, Exodus says its “ Day of Truth = Opportunity, Not Rhetoric ”

    TODAY is the Day of Truth. Take every opportunity you can. Make an opportunity if you would “love nothing better”. Where there’s a will, there’s a way. You have the “opportunity” for a real “Day of Truth”. No more rhetoric, Exodus. Call a press conference. Attract all the media Don Schmierer say this “deserves”.

    DO IT TODAY.

  • Mary

    Michael,

    You are aware that Alan must act on behalf of an organization not just himself? That requires that some organization and consensus in a message be met. He can’t just speak out. He represents many people and must use caution.

    I am constantly amzaed at how you implore people to be as impulsive as you.

  • Michael Bussee

    MARY. Don opposes it. Randy opposes it. Alan says he would “love nothing better” than to express their disdain and to apologize.

    That’s THREE Exodus Board members. These three men surely have some influence with the Board. Who on the Board opposes this?

    Impusive? You must be joking. They have had a full year. He says he would “love nothing better”. What’s stopping him?

    Come on Alan. You posted the first response to the thread. Why are you hiding now? What are you doing to convince the Board?

  • Michael Bussee

    If these three leaders don’t have the moral muscle to moblize that board to do what Alan says he would “loved nothing better” to do, how in God’s name did they get elected in the first place?

    I would have loved nothing better than to share our disdain for this bill and apologize for going anywhere near such a horrible conference. — Alan Chambers, Exodus President.

    Message to the Alan, Randy and Don: Beg the Board to let you (plural) express your (plural) disdain and your apology, to speak officially for Exodus on this matter or resign.

    What is true, however, and worth all the news media coverage possible, is the tragic nature of and heartbreaking potential this bill holds. – Don Schmierer, Exodus Board member and Kampala guiest speaker.

    If the rest of the Board disagrees, quit in protest. If the rest of the Board disagrees, why did you put it on the Exodus Blog and here on Throckmorton?

    Stop stalling and making excuses. Go GET the platform you would have “loved nothing better” to have had. Make it happen. Why would you want to remain leaders of an organization that won’t let you do this?

  • Michael Bussee

    An official apology (signed by ALL board members) and and official polices (signed by ALL board members) against criminalization and forced “treatment”. Time to come clean. Answer all the quesions in a public forum. Nothing less will do.

  • Michael Bussee

    Just alerted Rachal Maddow that Alan would “love more than anything” to tell Exodus’s side of the story and to apologize. I hope she will give him the opportunity: Here is what I posted on her Facebook group to help Alan out:

    Alan Chambers, President of Exodus International, posted this statement yesterday. He SAYS he would “love more than anything” to tell Exodus’ side of the story about the Ugandan “Kill the Gays Bill”– since he was “denied” the chance to tell Diane Sawyer on ABC News last night.

    Alan Chambers ~ Mar 10, 2010 at 4:48 pm: “I am disappointed that Exodus won’t be heard in this piece. Sadly, Don Schmierer declined the interview and our request to go on record with ABC was denied. I would have loved nothing better than to share our disdain for this bill and apologize for going anywhere near such a horrible conference.”

    Here’s her Facebook page so he won’t have to look it up: http://www.facebook.com/therachelmaddowshow

  • Michael Bussee

    Any luck yet?

    People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don’t believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can’t find them, make them. ~ G.B. Shaw, Mrs. Warren’s Profession, 1893

  • Michael Bussee
  • Mary

    Michael,

    If it is important to you must that be of the same importance to others?

    Or do you even consider the difference between news reporting and making organizational statments?

    You seem to confuse everyone’s role with what’s important to you?

  • Michael Bussee

    This is extremely important to me. I have thought of little else this past year since I first learned of the “horrible conference” an the “tragic nature of and heartbreaking potential this bill holds” — to borrow the words of Exodus leaders.

    I make no apology for that. And I will continue to focus my heart and soul on it — whether it is demands for official polcies or more media attention. Every step should be taken to assure the world that it won’t happen again. I know, but am saddened by the fact, that others may have different priorities.

    “In Africa, a step backward on human rights” — Desmond Tutu

    Friday, March 12, 2010 Hate has no place in the house of God. No one should be excluded from our love, our compassion or our concern because of race or gender, faith or ethnicity — or because of their sexual orientation. Nor should anyone be excluded from health care on any of these grounds. In my country of South Africa, we struggled for years against the evil system of apartheid that divided human beings, children of the same God, by racial classification and then denied many of them fundamental human rights. We knew this was wrong. Thankfully, the world supported us in our struggle for freedom and dignity.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/11/AR2010031103341.html

  • Mary

    You made a statment but did not answer the questions that were posed.

  • Michael Bussee

    If it is important to you must that be of the same importance to others?

    I wouldn’t say “must”. I would say, “deeply wish”.

    Or do you even consider the difference between news reporting and making organizational statments?

    I know that they are different — we need both to fight this.

    You seem to confuse everyone’s role with what’s important to you?

    I am not confused. Saddened. Angry. I acknowledge, above, that others may have diferent priorities. Here’s why I put so much pressure of Exodus about this:

    (1) They the largest program of their kind, having international connections and influence. They claim to love and offer “freedom” to the LGBT community.

    (2) I don’t agree that gays need to be freed or fixed — I find that idea as very harmful and morally repugant. But even if they did need it, you cannot “free” or “fix” this by criminalizing or imprisoning gays — or by forcing “treatment” upon them.

    (3) They promised they would do more and stated that this deserves all the media possible. The need to keep their word. They need to make their disdain and apology loud, public and clear.

  • Mary

    MIchael,

    You know, something I tell my kids at school? Focus on what you are doing and less on what others are or are not doing.

  • http://www.wthrockmorton.com Warren

    After many comments, I think we understand where everyone is coming from. I would like the discussion to move to something else.

    Martin Ssempa continues to say that the bill is about rape and child abuse. This may be what he wants it to be about but it clearly is about more than that. I am wondering if there could be some discussion about what role if any, American ministries which support Dr. Ssempa (e.g., Canyon Ridge Christian Church in Las Vegas; Oral ROberts U) has in addressing the misrepresentations?

  • Lynn David

    Warren, I think if there is any influence that an American had on the Bahati bill it might have been Paul Cameron. They have an idée fixe on the issue that presupposes that sexual contact is based upon what genders have that contact. Thus any homogenic sexual contact is necessarily homosexual, no matter what psychologenic motivation for the act exists. Thus they lump a male transgressing on another younger male pedophilia as homosexuality. Much the same that homophobic researchers (and ‘family groups’) such as Paul Cameron have done.

    Early on I had contact with a writer of one of the articles on the government press site [www.mediacentre.go.ug] and he mentioned the research of Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute. Well, I wrote back to him and included links from your work and that of Box Turtle Bulletin concerning the problems with Cameron’s work. Never heard back from him.

    I think the point is that if you have the overt homophobic views then you are going to look for that which supports your views. I’m sure that is what they have done. Their attitude towards homosexuals is one of such disdain that they presuppose the worst (thus Ssempa’s comedy of porn) and do not care to witness any possible good. Indeed, there can be no good associated with someone they see as an abomination.

    So, no, I don’t think Ugandans need have been influenced in any way by any American Christian sect, although I am sure they could receive affirmation of their views in some and that is rather easy to do in the age of the Internet.

  • Michael Bussee

    I will move on. Exodus will do, as always, whatever it feels “led” to do. My pressure will only make them more resistant. It’s a matter of pride for them. If gays tell them to do something, they do the opposite, even if it’s the right thing to do.

    Even when lliberty and lives — and their perception in the world of TRULY caring about gay people — are at stake. Their “agenda” over-rules it. “How DARE those evil homosexual reprobates lecture THEM about “morality”!!! The nerve!!! I think it’s why they ignored the warnings.

    At least, that is how is seems to me, and it makes me very, very sad. Disgusted, disappointed and SAD. To think that they could do more and won’t for PRIDE is deeply disappointing. Ultimately, Alan will have to live with his conscience and ultimately answer to God — and so will I.

  • Michael Bussee

    And so will Scott Lively:

    Alvin McEwen: Scott Lively demonstrates how to throw gasoline on an anti-gay brush fire.

    Last week, I wrote a post about how anti-gay activist Scott Lively claimed on ABC News that he didn’t envision Uganda pushing for that draconian anti-gay bill even though he had:

    a. visited the country earlier that year during a conference and told negative stories about the gay and lesbian community and

    b. had been going to foreign countries as far back as 2007 (i.e. Russia) and advocating that they “criminalize homosexuality.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alvin-mcewen/scott-lively-demonstrates_b_498591.html?ref=fb&src=sp#shared_by=889909

  • Eddy

    Warren–

    You seem like a nice, intelligent, reasonable person…you should really consider establishing your own blogsite someday. I’m going to presume that THIS blogsite currently belongs to the person who has made ALL but 13 of the 40 comments prior to mine.

  • concerned

    Eddy,

    I would agree with you. Talk about pride and arrogance to think that the only way one should see this situation is through the eyes of one person. If others see things differently, well they are just wrong, ignorant, bigotted, etc. It is really sad to think that one persons attitude should trump any other meaningful discussion on this topic, especially when there are many differing voices in this debate who represent anything but the above labels.

  • http://www.wthrockmorton.com Warren

    All: The reason I stopped the thread was because of the constant bickering and arguing over the same things.

    The threads are about the topics, not about you or what you think about the other commenters or assumptions about motives, or prognostications about what someone thinks or comments about what someone used to think.

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