One year later: Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill

Yesterday, I posted a statement from Uganda’s sexual minority community about the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, 2009. Today, I want to post a current status report and some observations.

My first post on the bill was titled, Uganda: The other shoe drops and detailed the little we knew at the time based on Ugandan news reports. Within a couple of weeks, it became clearer who in Uganda was promoting the bill (e.g., Martin Ssempa) and attention turned to American connections to those Ugandan ministers and politicians.

I started writing early (Oct 28) on this topic hoping to get some attention on these American connections as well as generate response from American evangelicals. The Facebook group (now 16,000+ members) quickly generated thousands of members involving liberals, conservatives, gays, straights, people of faith and people of no faith. At heart, it was an effort to mobilize people of faith to speak out. All of the blog posts (well over 100) can be seen here.

The current status of the bill is that it remains under consideration by the Legal and Parliamentary Affairs committee. According to Charles Tuhaise, a researcher in the Parliamentary Research service, no public hearings have been scheduled. A second reading cannot be scheduled until hearings have been conducted and a committee report has been prepared. Time is running out; the Ugandan elections are coming and the current Parliament ends inn May, 2011. Hon. David Bahati, the mover of the bill, has not responded to my questions about where he takes the bill from here.

Even though the bill seems to be stalled in committee, the effects on the daily lives of GLBT people in Uganda are quite negative. As noted in the statement yesterday from Sexual Minorities Uganda, since the bill was introduced conditions have worsened for them. Even though the bill has not moved, that has not stopped bill supporters such as Julius Oyet, David Kiganda, and Martin Ssempa from preaching stereotypes about gays and continuing what Martin Ssempa called “the war.” 

Due to the ongoing efforts of Ssempa and allies, attention has turned to the Americans which support these Ugandan preachers. Julius Oyet has been supported in the past by an Atlanta area church, New Gate International Church, headed by Apostle Venessa Battle. Rev. Battle is one of the approved apostles listed in C. Peter Wagner’s International Coalition of Apostles. Last month, when I called New Gate, a representative there said the church has support Rev. Oyet in the past but declined to say to what degree. She also said she would provide a statement regarding Rev. Oyet’s support for the Anti-Homosexuality Bill, but never followed up.

The most prominent American church involved with a Ugandan leader in the anti-gay movement is Canyon Ridge Christian Church. Canyon Ridge leaders told me recently that they continue to evaluate their stance and may have a new statement soon.  The fallout from the AHB has been substantial for CRCC. They have experienced unflattering national attention to their support for Martin Ssempa, and the loss of two community partnerships with AIDS related groups – Southern Nevada Health District and Aid for AIDS Nevada. One group, the Human Rights Campaign – Las Vegas met with Canyon Ridge leaders in September but has not said anything publicly about the church’s stance on the AHB. The HRC-LV has not responded to repeated requests for information about their stance on the AHB or CRCC’s support for Martin Ssempa.

There are many other American connections I could raise (e.g., Lou Engle, College of Prayer). Overall, Uganda’s AHB has become a point of division for American evangelicals. Some evangelicals believe criminalization of homosexuality would be a good thing (most recently the Tea Party darling, David Barton), while others (e.g., Rick Warren) do not. (Count me squarely on the side that believes the state has no business regulating such behavior.) And as indicated by Barton’s comments, one year later, the issues raised by the AHB in Uganda are still alive in American politics as well.

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  • Maazi NCO

    Even though the bill seems to be stalled in committee, the effects on the daily lives of GLBT people in Uganda are quite negative. As noted in the statement yesterday from Sexual Minorities Uganda, since the bill was introduced conditions have worsened for them.

    This is good news. This means that euro-american gay lobby has not made any significant inroads into Uganda. It has not succeeded in blackmailing Ugandans into accepting the incompatible idiosyncrasies of Western culture disguised as “human rights”. The Ugandan people will never allow their culture and traditions to die in favour of the plastic social liberally/hedonistic lifestyles of the West.

    Count me squarely on the side that believes the state has no business regulating such behavior.

    It seems your libertarian ideology is quite selective. You want the Ugandan State not to regulate sexual behaviour in the interest of preserving Africa’s culture and traditions, but you have not bothered that most Western countries use their law enforcement agencies to chase after polygamists who are criminalized in the name of bigamy. But then what did I expect—-Westerners are one of the worst hypocrites when it comes to several issues. This explains why Western governments can ask Africans to embrace democracy while hobnobbing with pro-Western dictatorships in the Middle-East whose anti-gay laws make the largely unenforced sodomy laws of Africa appear extremely lenient.

  • Andy

    Credits to Maazi, thanks for loving your nation.

    @Warren, Thanks for your concern for LGBT…hope its not in vein!

    Here in Uganda we are not moved by your sentiments and threats….remember Uganda is over 80% christian (people who are not ready to compromise their culture) not like you Warren who claim to be christian, yet you have your kind of ‘bible‘ you follow…that supports homosexuality.

    Again LGBT has never existed in any kind of vocabulary in Uganda

  • F Young

    @Andy

    “Again LGBT has never existed in any kind of vocabulary in Uganda.”

    No, that’s another myth perpetuated by nationalist demagogues to justify their patriarchical privileges and distract from their country’s failures by arguing that Africa is somehow superior to the rest of the world..

    The fact is that, among Nilotic Lango north of Lake Kwania in Uganda, the “mudoko dako” were biological males who were treated as women and could be married to other biological males.

    This is ethnographic research, not just some anecdote or uninformed personal bias. One can read the research for oneself in a few online academic works that are online, such as: http://tiny.cc/e442r.

    In the margin of this online article,

    http://www.willsworld.org/africa.html one can find about 60 African terms to describe various LGBT sexual minorities in pre-colonial Africa.

    I’ve given you these and other sources before. How do you explain your continued repetition of the “unafrican” myth?

  • http://www.wthrockmorton.com Warren

    F Young – Confirmation bias is the term you are looking for to explain Andy and Maazi’s discounting of any information which is at odds with their construction of the world.

  • Maazi NCO

    No, that’s another myth perpetuated by nationalist demagogues to justify their patriarchical privileges and distract from their country’s failures by arguing that Africa is somehow superior to the rest of the world..

    Africa is certainly not superior to the world. Out of 192 nations worldwide, only 66 countries—mostly in the West— think gayism is a good thing that ought to be legally enshrined and protected. Nearly 80 nations worldwide have criminal penalties for gayism. Even in many countries that do not criminalize gayism, the abhorrent sexual behaviour is overwhelmingly rejected by society. In fact, I will argue that Africa is with the majority of the world which rejects gay behaviour.

    I’ve given you these and other sources before. How do you explain your continued repetition of the “unafrican” myth?

    F Young,

    Your internet sources are quite funny and doesn’t prove a thing. The authors of the books in question are not Africans. They are certainly not authorities on the subject of pre-colonial African culture and traditions. It is well-known that western gay propagandists are giving mythologists of ancient Greece a run for their money in trying to conjure a mythical pre-colonial Africa where gayism was practiced and widely accepted before the arrival of the “evil european missionaries”. The only problem with the gay propaganda theme is that it cannot explain why gayism is illegal in most of Africa and universally reviled throughout Africa while polygamy—-which contradicts christian morality—-is legal, tolerated and practiced in the entire continent. Perhaps, you should commission a new gay book to explain away this problem with your propaganda theme :-)

    No, that’s another myth perpetuated by nationalist demagogues to justify their patriarchical privileges and distract from their country’s failures by arguing that Africa is somehow superior to the rest of the world..

    Out of 192 nations worldwide, only 66 countries—mostly in the northern hemisphere— think gayism is a good thing that ought to be legally enshrined and protected. Nearly 80 nations worldwide have criminal penalties for gayism. Even in many countries that do not criminalize gayism, the abhorrent sexual behaviour is overwhelmingly rejected by society. In fact, I will argue that Africa is with the majority of the world which rejects gay behaviour.Africa is certainly not superior to the world.

  • Maazi NCO

    F Young – Confirmation bias is the term you are looking for to explain Andy and Maazi’s discounting of any information which is at odds with their construction of the world.

    I would argue the same about your attitudes to the consensus opinion of the African people on the subject of gayism. You reject obvious evidence that most native Africans—even in South Africa where sodomy is officially legal—-are staunchly opposed to gayism and denounce it repeatedly as being incompatible with their culture and traditions. You focus narrowly on the highly vocal African evangelicals because it is a convenient weapon with which to beat your American conservative foes back home. Keep deluding yourself that our antipathy to gayism is a direct extension of the US cultural civil war.

  • Lynn David

    Maazi…. Africa is certainly not superior to the world. Out of 192 nations worldwide, only 66 countries—mostly in the West— think gayism is a good thing that ought to be legally enshrined and protected. Nearly 80 nations worldwide have criminal penalties for gayism.

    I think you need a remedial course in algebra. If only 80 nations criminalize homogenic sex then 112 must not care to do so.

    .

    You should also know that not having sodomy laws in the US does not mean that homosexuality is legally enshrined or protected. Sodomy laws in the US used to cover any act whether heterosexual or homosexual which wasn’t penile-vaginal coitus. But starting in the 1960s laws concerning sexual acts between consenting (non-paying) adults were gradually dismantled state by state, until 4 states had laws which criminalized homosexual acts but not heterosexual sodomous acts. It was those state laws which Lawrence v. Texas in 2003 struck down as discriminatory. Prior to that 46 states had already done away with sodomy laws of all kinds, generally recognizing it was silly to criminalize private, consensual sexual behaviors which were nearly impossible to police otherwise.

    So does Uganda discriminate when it comes to sodomy? Or are there Uganda laws criminalizing all of the various sorts of sodomy between men and women?

  • F Young

    Your internet sources are quite funny and doesn’t prove a thing. The authors of the books in question are not Africans. They are certainly not authorities on the subject of pre-colonial African culture and traditions.

    The source of the “mudoko dako” term was an eminent social anthropologist, Jack Driberg, in an excellent ethnography. He was reporting what he was told by his local Lango informants in Africa, who, by the way, added that this was very common among the neighbourung Iteso and Karamojan of Uganda and northwestern Kenya. See page 35 of: http://tiny.cc/e442r.

    The Boy-Wives and Female Husbands anthology consists of articles by numerous experts who cite other experts as well as Africans who spoke about their lives and local communities.

    As for your sources, well, you have none, right? It’s just your personal uninformed opinion as a western-trained engineer. “Funny” source indeed.

    Of course, there are a number of other references apart from Boy Wives. Given your dismissiveness of non-African scholars, I think that you will be especially interested in the book African Intimacies by Dr. Neville Hoad, who was born and raised in Africa.

    The first chapter of this book analyzes the 1886 Ugandan martyrs incident where Buganda’s Kanata (king) Mwanga executed over 30 male pages apparently for refusing to have homosexual sex with him following their conversion to Christianity.

    As you know, Kanata Mwanga was the last indigenous ruler of what is now roughly Uganda, and this incident is commemorated annually on June 3. So, it pretty convincingly disposes of the notion that homosexuality was not prevalent in pre-colonial Africa. You can read the book’s introduction here:

    http://tiny.cc/5wpllno1od

    Here’s a couple of other sources for you:

    Tommy Boys, Lesbian Men, and Ancestral Wives by Ruth Morgan and Saskia Wieringa http://tiny.cc/rs5k

    Hungochani: The History Of A Dissident Sexuality In Southern Africa by Dr. Marc Epprecht

    http://tiny.cc/7jphn

    The only problem with the gay propaganda theme is that it cannot explain why gayism is illegal in most of Africa and universally reviled throughout Africa . . . Perhaps, you should commission a new gay book to explain away this problem with your propaganda theme.

    It’s already been written!

    In Heterosexual Africa?: The History of an Idea from the Age of Exploration to the Age of AIDS, Dr. Marc Epprecht “explores the historical processes by which a singular, heterosexual identity for Africa was constructed” during the colonial era, and “how this idea not only survived the transition to independence but flourished under conditions of globalization and early panicky responses to HIV/AIDS.” http://tiny.cc/78sya

    Isn’t it wonderful how easy it is for someone who knows nothing about a subject to get the facts with a bit of research and a fair amount of reading. Provided one has an open mind! You seem to have a lot of time. Why don’t you put it to good use? Ignorance like yours kills LGBT people every day.

  • F Young

    Your internet sources are quite funny and doesn’t prove a thing. The authors of the books in question are not Africans. They are certainly not authorities on the subject of pre-colonial African culture and traditions.

    The source of the “mudoko dako” term was an excellent ethnography by an eminent social anthropologist, Jack Driberg. He was reporting what he was told by his local Lango informants in Africa, who, by the way, added that this was very common among the neighbourung Iteso and Karamojan of Uganda and northwestern Kenya. See page 35 of: http://tiny.cc/e442r.The Boy-Wives and Female Husbands anthology consists of articles by numerous experts who cite other experts as well as Africans who spoke about their lives and local communities.As for your sources, well, you have none, right? It’s just your personal uninformed opinion as a western-trained engineer. “Funny” source indeed.Of course, there are a number of other references. Given your dismissiveness of non-African scholars, I think that you will be especially interested in the book African Intimacies by Dr. Neville Hoad, who was born and raised in Africa.Dr Hoad devotes the first chapter of this book to analyze the 1886 Ugandan martyrs incident where Buganda’s Kanata (king) Mwanga executed over 30 male pages apparently for refusing to have homosexual sex with him following their conversion to Christianity.As you know, Kanata Mwanga was the last indigenous ruler of what is now roughly Uganda, and the martyr’s massacre is commemorated every June 3 in Uganda. So, it convincingly disposes of the notion that homosexuality was not prevalent in pre-colonial Africa. You can read the book’s introduction here:

    http://tiny.cc/5wpllno1od

    (CONTINUED BELOW)

  • F Young

    Your internet sources are quite funny and doesn’t prove a thing. The authors of the books in question are not Africans. They are certainly not authorities on the subject of pre-colonial African culture and traditions.

    The source of the “mudoko dako” term was an excellent ethnography by an eminent social anthropologist, Jack Driberg. He was reporting what he was told by his local Lango informants in Africa, who, by the way, added that this was very common among the neighbourung Iteso and Karamojan of Uganda and northwestern Kenya. See page 35 of: http://tiny.cc/e442r.

    The Boy-Wives and Female Husbands anthology consists of articles by numerous experts who cite other experts as well as Africans who spoke about their lives and local communities.

    As for your sources, well, you have none, right? It’s just your personal uninformed opinion as a western-trained engineer. “Funny” source indeed.

    Of course, there are a number of other references. Given your dismissiveness of non-African scholars, I think that you will be especially interested in the book African Intimacies by Dr. Neville Hoad, who was born and raised in Africa.

    Dr Hoad devotes the first chapter of this book to analyze the 1886 Ugandan martyrs incident where Buganda’s Kanata (king) Mwanga executed over 30 male pages apparently for refusing to have homosexual sex with him following their conversion to Christianity.

    As you know, Kanata Mwanga was the last indigenous ruler of what is now roughly Uganda, and the martyr’s massacre is commemorated every June 3 in Uganda. So, it convincingly disposes of the notion that homosexuality was not prevalent in pre-colonial Africa. You can read the book’s introduction here:

    http://tiny.cc/5wpllno1od

    (CONTINUED BELOW)

  • F Young

    (CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)

    Here’s a couple of other sources for you:

    Tommy Boys, Lesbian Men, and Ancestral Wives by Ruth Morgan and Saskia Wieringa http://tiny.cc/rs5k1

    Hungochani: The History Of A Dissident Sexuality In Southern Africaby Dr. Marc Epprecht http://tiny.cc/7jphn

    The only problem with the gay propaganda theme is that it cannot explain why gayism is illegal in most of Africa and universally reviled throughout Africa . . . Perhaps, you should commission a new gay book to explain away this problem with your propaganda theme

    .

    It’s already been written!

    In Heterosexual Africa?: The History of an Idea from the Age of Exploration to the Age of AIDS, Dr. Marc Epprecht “explores the historical processes by which a singular, heterosexual identity for Africa was constructed” during the colonial era, and “how this idea not only survived the transition to independence but flourished under conditions of globalization and early panicky responses to HIV/AIDS.”

    http://tiny.cc/78sya

    Isn’t it wonderful how easy it is to get the facts with a bit of research and a fair amount of reading. Provided one has an open mind!

    You seem to have a lot of time. Why don’t you put it to good use? Ignorance like yours kills LGBT Africans every day.

  • James

    Young,

    I call your submission ridiculous and misinforming and whoever carried out that research needs to redo it. I personally come from the far east region of Uganda and while growing up there, there was no hint of such a deviant practice. Inaccurate researches/conclusions must not be used to enforce a deviant behaviour among good culture loving people.

    There was nothing like homosexuality among the Langi, Iteso and of all tribes the Karimojong. It was unheard of. Let me inform you, the Karimojong is a warrior tribe. It still holds to ancient practices and homosexuality has never been any of them. The problem with you sodomists is that you think whoever doesn’t agree with you is archaic, terrible, rotten etc. Well, I would like to let you know the enforcers of such barbaric practices are a tragedy. Keep sodomy in your nation and let us enjoy our peace. You Gay advocates think pressure works every where. I would advice you manipulate the likes of Warren, AFAN, etc but not a people that have fought thru colonialism to preserve their heritage, their culture!!!! Not them. No!

    Just last year the cultural leader of the Lango and their elders held a demonstration in Lira town and served notice to all homos to stay away from Lira. They demonstrated this by arresting a soccer coach who wanted to sodomised two young boys in Hotel Lira. And Young you get all the boldness to come a lie us on these pages that Lango, Iteso and Karimojong were involved in that absurd practice.

  • Maazi NCO

    Of course, there are a number of other references. Given your dismissiveness of non-African scholars, I think that you will be especially interested in the book African Intimacies by Dr. Neville Hoad, who was born and raised in Africa

    .

    F.Young,

    Neville Hoad is not an African. It is as simple as that. Westerners are pushing the Gay Agenda in our continent and are publishing revisionist history in order to advance their cause. I am sorry to say that I will not accept the work of a Westerner on this particular subject matter. Most Africans won’t as well.

    I think you need a remedial course in algebra. If only 80 nations criminalize homogenic sex then 112 must not care to do so.

    I am afraid that the reality is much more complex than your simplistic 112 do not care to do so. Among the 112 nations that do not expressly criminalize private same-sex activity, there are several of them that have laws that ban teaching gay propaganda in schools, gay marriage and gay adoption. In other words, there are many countries among the 112 nations that restrict gay lifestyle in one form or another. There are certain European nations which join the rest of Europe in offering legal protection to gayism, but are careful to restrict the deviant lifestyle by maintaining constitutional bans on the misnomers called “same-sex marriage” and some have legal restrictions on “child adoption rights for gays”. Examples of these include Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Moldova, Montenegro, Serbia, Ukraine, etc. It goes without saying that in many of the 112 countries that do not criminalize gayism, the abhorrent sexual behaviour is overwhelmingly rejected by society. I conclude by saying that African sentiment on restricting gayism is universally shared by most of the world.

  • Maazi NCO

    You seem to have a lot of time.

    F.Young,

    Not really. But I do carve out time to visit this blog in order to monitor the activity of those who do not wish Uganda and Africa well.

    You seem to have a lot of time. Why don’t you put it to good use?

    F.Young,

    I have no interest in helping you chaps to spread gay propaganda in my country. No amount of Western money will change my mind on this subject matter.

    Ignorance like yours kills LGBT Africans every day.

    Thats just gay propaganda speaking. Sex deviants are not killed everyday in the African continent. In fact, I doubt they are being killed at all. Most African States barely enforce their sodomy laws. The problem is not “ignorance that kills LGBT Africans”. The problem is the prevalent notions in the West that anything African is backward, inferior and irrelevant. Arrogant ignorance of African cultures and traditions is the problem and the reason why Westerners think that they have right to dictate that African people adopt their socially liberal attitudes. Why not put your gay advocacy skills to good use in Saudi Arabia and other pro-American Arab nations where extremely harsh anti-gay laws are strictly enforced and used to imprison, chemically castrate or hang sodomites?

  • ken

    James# ~ Oct 18, 2010 at 5:58 am

    “Inaccurate researches/conclusions must not be used to enforce a deviant behaviour among good culture loving people. ”

    How have you determined the research to be inaccurate? Can you cite any other research to disprove the claims made?

    Further how is homosexuality being “enforced”?

    “There was nothing like homosexuality among the Langi, Iteso and of all tribes the Karimojong. It was unheard of.”

    Again, can you cite any credible evidence to to support this claim?

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Yeah,

    I do understand.

    I mean, listening to the voices of

    ?African reason, ?African nationalism, ?Culture loving African nationalism….

    you would kind of assume that I do not exist.

    Me, as in gay, African, Ugandan…..

    You know, proof exists that I DO NOT EXIST.

    I am an aberration. in that I exist.

    My skin is white, not the black that I see.

    My parents where some sort of implant from the ‘west’

    and, I am supposed to think like the good africans that have come up to this blog and elucidated their ‘facts’. Oh, maybe I am not African. how can I be, and think contrary to the expressed opinions of those who hold the flag for the continent? That is sacrilege, isnt it?

    You know, ignorance has a courage all of its own. And, it is virtually unassailable.

    Maazi…. British educated engineer, and well travelled in the US….. Ugandan, African.

    How can I compare?

    Now, of course I have the option of getting into a pissing contest. Pretty undignified to do that. Like shouting, or trying to out shout Pastor ‘eat da poo poo’ Ssempa. You know the saying about empty tins?

    No. I will not do that.

    Frankly, the level of ‘education’ that is displayed by Maazi is frightening. Your opinions are illuminating.

    Me, I am a poor, lowly educated African. Gay to boot. Which kind of means that I am pariah to the likes of Maazi, and Andy above.

    But, for some reason, I find myself fiercely proud of my Africanness.

    And, again I request, dont generalise your opinions. You dont even speak for this African… which is kind of amusing.

    The very fact that I exist, that I am gay, african, Ugandan… that should be lesson enough. But, question is, do I even exist?

    Not for you, do I Maazi? Andy?

    LOL

  • James

    Ken,

    I do not need research to prove anything about those tribes. I have lived in the far east where those tribes are based for most part of my life. I know what goes on that region. I do not to quote any research. Am not like you who bases on such premeditated researches to try to manipulate Ugandans and the rest of the world. If I were you, I would restrict my mind to what I am very sure about other than defending hearsay and junk. Could you also quote any other research pointing out that a tribe in Uganda ever involved themselves in this deviant behaviour?

    The point is very clear, we Ugandans reject homosexuality. We’ll fight it tooth and nail. It’s a behaviour that has been imported and enforced on a few unfortunate individuals. The Arabs tried to enforce it through Mwanga but failed. Today the West is trying to enforce it through research, funding, etc but it will not pass through. Atleast our moral fabric still stands especially in the issues of sexuality.

  • F Young

    @Maazi NCO

    Thats just gay propaganda speaking. Sex deviants are not killed everyday in the African continent. In fact, I doubt they are being killed at all. Most African States barely enforce their sodomy laws.

    The vast majority of LGBT’s who die from homophobic ignorance in Africa every day are not executed for sodomy. They die from:

    1. imprisonment for sodomy, which is often a death sentence due to malnutrition, unsanitary conditions, anti-LGBT attacks by guards and inmates, and AIDS due to prison rape and the refusal to supply condoms and AIDS drugs to inmates

    2. beatings and torture by police while investigating sodomy, or otherwise repressing LGBT’s

    3. attacks by thugs, militia, military, mobs, religious militants, neighbors, parents

    4. AIDs, due to the suppression of safe-sex information for LGBT’s, and LGBT’s fearing to attend health clinics due to the risk of violence and arrest,

    5. other health problems due to discrimination by health care providers, and their ignorance of LGBT health needs

    6. suicide, due to blackmail, bullying and violence, loneliness due to isolation. shame and low self-esteem due to homophobic mythmaking, and hopelessnees due to discrimination and violence in schools, at work, in housing and health care

    7. alcoholism and addiction, due to the same reasons

    8. so-called “honour” killings

    9. and so on…(I am sure other commentators can supply many more)

  • Maazi NCO

    Again, can you cite any credible evidence to to support this claim?

    Ken,

    James has already explained that the people there are not sodomites and that North-East Uganda was never a gay paradise. This is not a claim. This is a fact which can be confirmed by local people. I always find it hilarious that Westerners think that they know more about Africa than the African people. I will like to see the look on the face of the Karamojong people when they are told that Western authors have written ridiculous books claiming that their warrior forebears had spent time between battles penetrating the anus of each other. Ken, I would like to see you travel down there to inform the Karamojong people of their “new history”. Make sure you go with lots of policemen for protection because you will certainly need it after spinning such an insulting fictional tale of free-wheeling sodomy among their respected ancestors.

    Generally speaking, I have noticed a pattern emerging as far as revisionist history of pre-colonial Africa is concerned. Uganda is just one of several African nations where Western gay propagandists claim deviant sexuality was accepted as normal behaviour. Recently, I was reading the Dutch press report which featured a story in which the President of the autonomous region of South Sudan promised fundamental human rights to all citizens when his territory becomes an independent sovereign state. When the Dutch reporter mentioned “gay rights”, the President told him bluntly that gayism was not part of his people’s culture and would always be condemned. In online comments following the news report, several Western commentators claimed that pre-colonial South Sudanese people tolerated and loved gayism. A couple of years back, there was an op-ed article in the Guardian newspaper of UK in which another demented Western gay lobbyist claimed that in pre-colonial Nigeria, pre-colonial Gabon, pre-colonial Congo-Kinshasa and pre-colonial Congo-Brazzaville, gay behaviour was practiced and widely accepted as normal. Unsurprisingly, the lobbyist went further to make the unoriginal claim that something called “homophobia” was introduced to gay-loving Africans by the usual bogeymen. [ Yes, you guessed right—-the bogeymen are the 19th century European christian missionaries]

  • Maazi NCO

    F Young,

    I am not sure my comment will come through since Warren has decided to apply Chinese-style control over the flow of commentary from people whose views are quite representative of mainstream African opinion. It seems to me that he struggles to live up to his own libertarian beliefs. Anyways, lets address your quote below—-

    The vast majority of LGBT’s who die from homophobic ignorance in Africa every day are not executed for sodomy. They die from:

    1. imprisonment for sodomy, which is often a death sentence due to malnutrition, unsanitary conditions, anti-LGBT attacks by guards and inmates, and AIDS due to prison rape and the refusal to supply condoms and AIDS drugs to inmates

    2. beatings and torture by police while investigating sodomy, or otherwise repressing LGBT’s

    3. attacks by thugs, militia, military, mobs, religious militants, neighbors, parents

    4. AIDs, due to the suppression of safe-sex information for LGBT’s, and LGBT’s fearing to attend health clinics due to the risk of violence and arrest,

    5. other health problems due to discrimination by health care providers, and their ignorance of LGBT health needs

    6. suicide, due to blackmail, bullying and violence, loneliness due to isolation. shame and low self-esteem due to homophobic mythmaking, and hopelessnees due to discrimination and violence in schools, at work, in housing and health care

    7. alcoholism and addiction, due to the same reasons

    8. so-called “honour” killings

    9. and so on…(I am sure other commentators can supply many more)

    Where did you get these allegations from? Do you have any evidence to back them up? It will take more than sitting down behind a computer and typing a long list of silly allegations not founded in reality to make us change our minds on gayism. Like James explained, gayism has no place in Africa and will not be accepted. Those who feel trapped in it will be treated fairly and help sought for them. Those who are defiant, collect money from euro-american gay lobby and seek to promote it in Uganda shall not be granted freedom to do whatever they like. Gayism along with other forms of aberrant sexual activities such as bestiality, necrophilia, incest and paedophilia will remain a criminal activity punishable by jail time. Why not concentrate on the ongoing cultural civil war in USA being fought in the courts, the congress and the military? Why interfere in the internal affairs of the African people? Why not show the same concern to middle-eastern gays are in tremendous danger of being hanged for sodomy? Why focus on poor African nations, which you obviously perceive can be blackmailed into submission?

  • ken

    James# ~ Oct 18, 2010 at 5:51 pm

    “I do not need research to prove anything about those tribes. ”

    If you wish to be taken seriously you do. Otherwise, you’ll simple be seen as another person who can’t see past his own prejudices.

    “I have lived in the far east where those tribes are based for most part of my life. I know what goes on that region. ”

    Except, that F Young wasn’t referencing the situation in Uganda TODAY. He (?) was pointing out that homosexuality existed in pre-colonial times and supported it with references. And if you wish to refute that, you’re going to need something more than “I live here.”

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton Warren

    Maazi – For the record, I am looking into the reason why comments on this thread are not simply posting. I am not applying any unusual control on your comments versus others.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Hey,

    I love where the debate is heading. And, so many of my countrymen insisting that I do not exist… isnt it hilarious!!!

    You know, it is always interesting, this insitence that we gay people do not exist. I mean, the English blamed it on the French, who blamed it on the Italians, who blamed it on… ad infinitum.

    Why is this so?

    I was in conversation with the current Benson Ogwal, co-sponsor of the Bahati bill. And, the virtuous man asserts that homosexuals do not exist in his constituency. And, I was like, are you sure? That the Langi, his people, are not….! When I intimated that I knew at least a number, from his constituency, he chose to believe that I had mistaken his constituency for one of a similar name in Karamoja. Dont remember his exact words, but he implied maybe I knew someone from that part of Karamoja, but not his constituency….

    Quite hilarious.

    Because, as a kuchu, a gay ugandan, I can affirm from personal experience that we are from all tribes in Uganda. Not from the west, or east, or central. But, for some reason, every phobe will insist that we gay ugandans come from another tribal group. Not their tribal group.

    That is what is going on here from the likes of Maazi and James.

    Quite, absolutely hilarious.

    And, these arguments are not new.

    But then, I am an unread, and gay Ugandan!!!!!

    Continue the debate!

  • andy

    …we Ugandans reject homosexuality. We’ll fight it tooth and nail. It’s a behaviour that has been imported and enforced on a few unfortunate individuals….

    As Gug (Gayuganda)

    Thats true James…

    The very fact that I exist, that I am gay, african, Ugandan… that should be lesson enough. But, question is, do I even exist?

    Not for you, do I Maazi? Andy?

    @ Gug(Gayuganda), You exist Mr(s)…(i think they all apply right?)

    You are a few of them that have embraced the Barbaric sexual behavior… I wonder Whether your Mom or Dad still associates with you.

    But there is still hope…

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    [scornful]

    Of course I exist. It is you who denies my existence.

    Even now, you want my parents to disown me? Poor Andy….

    They might have had qualms. But, they do know me, and they have insisted on associating with me. My mum, my dad.

    FYI, they even know me and my partner of 10 years now.

    And, wonder of wonders, they are true bred Africans of the old order..

    LOL

  • Maazi NCO

    I love where the debate is heading. And, so many of my countrymen insisting that I do not exist… isnt it hilarious!!!

    GayUganda,

    Of course, we acknowledge your existence—- that is why a new law is in the works to sharpen the penal code that deals with your behaviour which is totally unacceptable to most Ugandans of all ethnic groups, religions, gender and socio-economic class. It also explains why there is already a pre-emptive strike on the issue of “same-sex marriage” through the 2005 constitutional ban. What is missing is legal restriction on gay propaganda in schools and gay advocacy within the public sphere. You know as well as I do that it is only a matter of time before the anti-gay penal code is properly consolidated. Why not tell the foreign sponsors the bad news rather than give them false hope?

  • Maazi NCO

    Of course I exist. It is you who denies my existence.

    Even now, you want my parents to disown me? Poor Andy….

    They might have had qualms. But, they do know me, and they have insisted on associating with me. My mum, my dad.

    FYI, they even know me and my partner of 10 years now.

    And, wonder of wonders, they are true bred Africans of the old order..

    LOL

    GayUganda, you are funny guy and quite clever. Tell us direct and straight if your parents approve and accept your behaviour. Twisting words and producing convoluted sentences like “they may have qualms” doesn’t tell us anything. Keeping quiet or leaving you alone to do your thing, is not a sign that your family accept or even tolerate that behaviour. Unless you are saying that in a scene similar to a hollywood movie, you “came out” to your parents and they said “aww, we still love you son, please carry on with your behaviour and remember to invite your gay lover to dine with us”.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Dear Maazi,

    let me see…

    In 2008, when we came out at a press conference, and Ssempa and the churches organised an anti-gay crusade, or was it march at the Rugby club, there was a lot of the usual hot air on the waves.

    In the middle of the hullabaloo, with Nsaba-Buturo calling for our arrest, and the Attorney General weighing in, that is when my Dad first intimated to me that he knew, that he knew from the many hints that we had been dropping.

    He came to our door, rang and I opened. We were in the sitting room. Others, kuchu friends had come to our house, anxious that we were too open, that we would be arrested.

    Know what the old man was anxious about? The fm radios were announcing the imminent arrest of kuchu leaders. And, my dad was worried. Worried about me, his son. And, my lover.

    See, love like that… we do differ on many things.

    As for your law, I bet I can convince my mom to put on her gomesi and go to parliament to plead for my life. For the bill that is supposed to tidy up homosexuals in Uganda.

    Maazi, I do love you. You are so open in your hatred, such a blatant hate filled mask. Nsaba-Buturo, and Ssempa indeed, they try to hide the hatred. You, with your British Engineering education, and your wide travel in the US, no. you dont hide it.

    Exhillarating.

    So, you are going to tidy up, with the Bahati bill, and hang us and put us in prison?

    [Sigh, and he believes that he is the first to try….!]

    Well, FYI, Hitler tried in Europe. Trying to purify the Master race. The Bahati bill, as you acknowledge, was aimed at such a pure and lofty ideal.

    Now, I am an african man. I am Ugandan, I very, very deeply love the country and continent (that is why am struggling to show that not all of us are blessed with Idi Amin idiocy)

    But, I will simply not lie back and wait for the likes of you to put a halter around my neck. Sorry. Not believe in ‘martyrdom’

    So, I will get my friends from where they come from. Will make common cause with them.

    Maazi. Have you ever been tempted to read my blog? I think you have, havent you? And, how much do you know of your host Throckmorton? I believe you have been railing at him without reading a bit about him. Even what is on this blog, on a page ‘about T’. It would be interesting for you to find out how we, that is me gayuganda, and your host differ.

    It is so interesting, you seated here, your host looking on, as you throw around ‘dog poo’. Or is it homosexual poo poo?!!!!

    Continue the debate, Maazi.

    I assure you, I am listening to you!

  • Maazi NCO

    GayUganda,

    I see you are obviously enjoying yourself on this blog. Please continue while it lasts. Accusing people who disapprove of sodomy of being hateful, backward and unsophisticated is the stock-in-trade of gay propagandists. Please understand that I am immune to such nonsensical propaganda. I can assure you that I don’t hate you, but I will not drop my conviction that we need a stronger sodomy law in order to prove that I do not hate you. After all, I do not hate drug addicts, but I strongly support the continued criminalization of their self-degrading activity. I will never advocate Netherlands-style legalization of narcotics in order to prove that I do not hate druggies.

    Trying to compare the overwhelming number of Africans who want sodomy restricted to Nazis is another stock-in-trade of gay propagandists. You and I know that casting such Nazi aspersions will not move most Africans a single inch from their position on deviant sexuality. Race and sexual behaviour are not the same thing. The former is clearly genetic/immutable and can be proved by simple Mendelian techniques. The latter is not. There is no “gay gene” and there is simply no CREDIBLE scientific evidence that your behaviour is “in-born” or “unchangeable”. Sodomy is your choice and a sex crime in Uganda.

  • Maazi NCO

    But, I will simply not lie back and wait for the likes of you to put a halter around my neck. Sorry. Not believe in ‘martyrdom’ So, I will get my friends from where they come from. Will make common cause with them.

    GayUganda,

    I am detecting a mixture of self-pity and vain defiance in your blog post. First of all, I have no interest in getting you or anyone killed, but I have a strong interest in ensuring that gay propaganda/advocacy within Uganda is restricted to the barest minimum through force of legislation.

    Secondly, I think you are misreading the situation in Uganda. Your friends in the Euro-American gay lobby do not have any direct influence in our country nor do have veto power over our parliament. But the lobby is quite capable of pressuring sodomy-friendly Western governments into blackmailing Uganda with donor aid withdrawal. Unfortunately, time is running out on such blackmailing tactics. Do you see your friends making common cause with sodomites in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, etc? Very soon, Uganda will join the list of nations immune from such blackmail. Yes, our venal political elites will steal a large portion of petro-dollars made from our oil fields when they become operational, but at least they will no longer have to humiliatingly surrender our sovereign right to enact our own laws to the EU and USA in exchange for useless donor aid packages.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Ha,

    dear Maazi,

    lovely day in Kampala, isnt it? Cool, overcast, a nice wind… beautiful country of ours.

    Now, let me see, of the examples of genocide, how many were justified by ‘we the majority’ dont like the minority?

    Tutsi in Rwanda. Should have been within your lifetime Maazi, wasnt it?

    Muslims ethnic cleansing in Bosnia.

    Asians in Uganda, by Idi Amin… serious ethnic cleansing.. of course the majority supported it. Were you alive?

    Armenians in Turkey

    Jews in Nazi Germany.

    the list goes on. No, the believers are never, ever convinced of their inferiour status. Despite the draft law in Uganda mandating death and life imprisonment for me and mine, no, it is not genocide to dear Maazi.

    No, it is a full and virtuous effort to make sure that the ‘majority’ keeps its moral purity.

    You do love stereotypes, dont you? Us guys who will never fit into your stereotypes have no place in your world. See… Euro-American gay lobby, sodomy friendly etc, etc.

    Big words. Do you take the time to think of them? Or do they ever come ‘naturally’? Reminds me of a character in a lit novel…. Digressing.

    Hey, did you take the time to read through about your posts? See, when you go on sprouting about the ‘gay gene’, on this particular blog, and with this particular host, I truly want you to kind of make sure about your ‘facts’.

    No. I am not stating one fact or another…. Am just pointing out a few things…. You are supposedly well read. Why should i, an ignoramus, teach you anything?

    See, I am a Ugandan. I wince when Idi Amin like ignorance is shown up to the world again.

    Self pity? No, you wont leave me the pleasure to wallow in it, will you dear Maazi?

  • Lynn David

    Maazi…. There is no “gay gene” and there is simply no CREDIBLE scientific evidence that your behaviour is “in-born” or “unchangeable”.

    Yes, there can be no singular gay gene, however, that does not mean that genetics may not be a root cause. And the mantra that there is no credible scientific evidence that sexual orientation is biological is purely a fallacy that those, who have surely proven themselves to be hateful, use most often to promote their anti-gay agendas.

  • F Young

    @Maazi “Sodomy is your choice and a sex crime in Uganda.”

    Homosexuality, heterosexuality and bisexuality are sexual orientations, not sexual acts. Sexual orientation is not a choice. When did you choose to be heterosexual?

    No scientist claims that sexual orienataion is a choice. Like left/right handedness, for example, there are several ways that sexual orientation could be a non-choice apart from genes.

    The anti-homosexuality bill aims to ban homosexuals, not sodomy. Sodomy is already banned..

    “Gayism” is not a word.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    [Shhhhhhh F Young, Lynn David, Maazi might get some real education…..]

    Ahem Maazi. You are an engineer, yes? Would you call a doctor to build your house?

    Me, I wouldnt. Not even one of the tukuls back home.

    But, you are doing very well!

  • Maazi NCO

    Now, let me see, of the examples of genocide, how many were justified by ‘we the majority’ dont like the minority?

    GayUganda

    It seems you are a bit slow. I have said repeatedly on this blog that I do not support crude provisions within the Bahati Bill and I have no interest in getting anyone killed. Most Ugandans also have no interest in getting anyone killed that is why proxies for the euro-american gay lobby— such as David Kato, Frank Mushiga, Pepe Julian Onziema and co— are able to live openly in Uganda and make high-profile comments to the local and international press. If there was a threat of genocide or pogroms against sex deviants, they would have fled our country a long time ago. All this talk of a Nazi-style genocide in the making is just false propaganda, which may draw sympathy of western ignoramuses who think Africa is a country, but it will not change our minds on the need to place stringent legal restrictions on sodomy.

  • Maazi NCO

    Sexual orientation is not a choice.

    F.Young,

    That is your own opinion. Many people disagree. There is no scientific consensus on the nature of sexual orientation and its manifestation in the form of gay behaviour. Gayism, paedophilia, bestiality and necrophilia are manifestations of sexual disorientation. Nearly 80 nations worldwide insist on criminalizing gayism and many of the 112 nations that do not criminalize it still insist on legally restricting gay lifestyle through constitutional bans on same-sex marriage and laws prohibiting sodomites from child adoption, military service, blood donation, employment in national intelligence services, etc.

    Yes, there can be no singular gay gene, however, that does not mean that genetics may not be a root cause. And the mantra that there is no credible scientific evidence that sexual orientation is biological is purely a fallacy that those, who have surely proven themselves to be hateful, use most often to promote their anti-gay agendas.

    Lynn David,

    Don’t make me laugh. The fallacy is on those with pro-gay agenda who claimed the “scientific” discovery the “gay gene” a couple of years ago. The gay gene theory has long being dismissed as nonsense by real honest scientists. I will not be surprised if you chaps come up with another “scientific” theme for the pro-gay agenda–perhaps the discovery of the gene for bisexuality? :-)

  • Lynn David

    Maazi….. Don’t make me laugh. The fallacy is on those with pro-gay agenda who claimed the “scientific” discovery the “gay gene” a couple of years ago. The gay gene theory has long being dismissed as nonsense by real honest scientists. I will not be surprised if you chaps come up with another “scientific” theme for the pro-gay agenda–perhaps the discovery of the gene for bisexuality?

    You might as well quit while you’re behind. You’re not making any lucid point.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    [Agrieved]

    Hey, the guy says I am slow… grumble, grumble, grumble…..!

    Dear fast Maazi. Of course, I am slow. We all agree on that. After all, I am gay. And, Ugandan, African….. so, translation. Slow….!

    Now, virtuous you dont want the ‘crude’ provisions of Bahati’s bill. But, I remember you telling me of the great attempt in the Ugandan parliament to solve, once and for all the problem of homosexuality in your blessed nation? … of course, I am mistaken. I am slow. Buturo would add, I lie… because, because, I am gay, not so?

    Lynn, lucidity is relative. To Maazi, his points are ‘crystal clear.’

    He is an engineer. He is respectfully instructing his surgeon how to place the knife. Poor bewildered surgeon. But, Maazi does know the best, doesnt he? He has read all of it from ‘true, honest scientists’

    [Must have been in Britain, and the US….!]

  • Maazi NCO

    GayUganda,

    You are a brilliant master propagandist. I willingly give you that. But please remember that all the sympathy you are receiving is from West which is shifting slowly, but steadily toward bankruptcy. Uganda will not be tied to the monetary apron strings of the donor blackmailers for much longer. You will receive the sympathy of Ugandan masses when you finally realize that your depraved sexual behaviour is beyond acceptance, seek help and modify your lifestyle accordingly. Alternatively, you free to move to the West where I am sure you will be treated as a celebrity and perhaps, be awarded the Nobel Prize for Gay Rights.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Hey Maazi,

    I am preening myself with pride. Some accolade from you?!!!

    By the way, can you write without forcing things into your boxes? You are a very rigid thinker…. have to make everything to conform to your preset ideas. I am trying to learn from you. The big words, the lofty ideals, the… I mean [admiring], even when there is no word, you form it to frame your prejudices. To make sure that you have one to sufficiently frame the depths of your feelings. That is a talent. [Wonder what the term for it would be…. help, host!]

    I am gay, and Ugandan. Wanna read how tough that is? This is part of my personal story.

    I bet you, I am tough enough. Darwin, survival of the fittest. And, I have survived so far.

    So, the west is corrupt and decaying? And, where will hope come from? The east? Africa?

    Dunno. But, is a very interesting insight into your mind…!

  • Maazi NCO

    Wanna read how tough that is? This is part of my personal story.

    Wow, very touching !! I was almost won over by your propaganda. The Guardian Newspaper is a prominent left-wing paper in Britain, the sort that welcomes columnists who write radical articles in support of stuff like feminism, legalized euthanasia, legalized drugs and gayism. I should know because—despite being a social conservative— I used to read the broadsheet newspaper when I lived in the UK. I have no doubt that your article will be well received by the extremely liberal British audience that patronize the Guardian. While you bask in your newly found celebrity status, may I suggest you pause for a minute and ponder the following question—-what does it profit a man to gain the sympathy of the Western world, but to increase the anger of his compatriots back home in Uganda?

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Maazi,

    beautiful as ever.

    You dont see where I am leading? Good. Very good. Kind of nice to exercise that brain… Maybe you will wake up…

    So, again the boxes…

    Anyway, no comment.

    About the enemies back home, hey, do you really think that I have any hopes of you becoming a friend? LOL! Its like thinking Ssempa can realy turn into a Christian. Ooops, he is, isnt he?

  • Maazi NCO

    You dont see where I am leading? Good. Very good. Kind of nice to exercise that brain… Maybe you will wake up…

    Unless you are preparing the grounds to gain asylum in any western nation of your choice, I really do not see where your propaganda is going. There are limits to what foreign pressure can achieve on African soil. Don’t worry it only a matter of time before the West—currently grappling with an economic situation close to financial bankruptcy—-is no longer in a position to impose its views on the rest of the world. I bet the United States is more worried about the fact that it owes China trillions of dollars in debt and its never-ending billion-dollar war in Afghanistan, than about your sexual perversion.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Uh,

    so, are we resorting to throwing insults?

    Very un-edifying.

    You dont know why I am doing what I am doing. Leave it at that. You dont know even why I am debating you the way I am… If you knew, what would you do about it?

    Anyway, that is what I was talking about boxes. Because you have put me in this box labelled ‘gay sexual pervert’, you cannot dare believe that my motives may be none other than the simple ones I say I have.

    FYI, I have actually rejected numerous offers of asylum. Dont want to go there. That is not my aim. Nor does my partner want anything like that.

    So, what is my aim, dear Maazi?

  • Mary

    There are limits to what foreign pressure can achieve on African soil

    Yes, I remember the ethnic wars.

  • Maazi NCO

    Yes, I remember the ethnic wars.

    Yeah, like the Rodney King race riots that killed more than 50 people in the State of California in the 1990s or the Detroit race riots in Michigan State in the 1960s that killed loads of people or that of the State of Illinois and other race riots in numerous parts of the United States?

    FYI, I have actually rejected numerous offers of asylum. Dont want to go there. That is not my aim. Nor does my partner want anything like that.

    I couldn’t care less what your motives are, but if you think that the Ugandan people will bend over and accept rubbish ideology such as gayism, same-sex marriage or gay adoption rights then you clearly deluded. Keep thinking endlessly of the day when you will be able to parade half-naked on streets of Kampala in the name of Gay Pride March or the day you will be able to “marry” another man on Ugandan soil. Unless the foreigners you are mobilizing with your false propaganda are going to invade our nation, displace the native population, import Western settlers and run Uganda as the 51st state of USA or as an EU trusteeship territory, there is absolutely no hope whatsoever that you will achieve your devious objective.

  • Mary

    Yes, I remember the ethnic wars.

    The inquarreling between the ethnics in Rwanda was a little bit – oops A LOT more murderous than the American Riots.

    And the West could not stop it. You’re right. Africans have their own way of managing conflict. I don’t happen to like it very much.

  • stephen

    Maazi outdoes herself with her latest update on US/uganda paranoia. She does make a valid point re colonialism. Here is girlfriend wailing on imported values and doing pretty well till we reckon that she’s describing the Uganda of the Anglican church(UK), the US evangelical church(US), the UK legal system(UK, duh), the IMF monetary system, the western parliamentary democracy (albeit devastated by local corruption) and her own western education in the US. Hilarious that girlfriend gets all up in our face about western ‘gayism’ (my fave word of the year) given that her entire life, down to the polish on her nails, is a product of western ‘gayism’. Girlfriend would not have a thong to wear to the beach if it wasn’t for Monsanto. So bring on the satire Maazi. We love how you show the ignorance of Ssssssssempa et al for what it is: Lou Engle without the muzzle. You do a valuable service for gay men everywhere by exposing the nutjobs for what they are: the tools of the west.

    I know what my costume will be for this year’s Hallowe’en parade in the Village, the great gay festival of the year here in NYC: I’ll go as you. And if I’m wrong and you’re not really a lesbian in Seattle but really a gay boy in DC, so much the better. You bring the hilarious to hysteria. Big wet kiss on you, bitch.

  • Maazi NCO

    The inquarreling between the ethnics in Rwanda was a little bit – oops A LOT more murderous than the American Riots.

    Mary,

    First of all, Tutsi and Hutus are not separate ethnic groups in the real sense of the word because both of them have the same culture and speak an identical language called Kinyarwanda. It may not be wise to delve into issues which you have little understanding of. Do you know the genesis of the Tutsi–Hutu Divide, which is closely tied to the Belgian colonial regime’s declaration that Tutsis were the master race and Hutus the savages? Do you know the role played by France in supplying troops and weapons to the genocidal regime in Kigali? Did you know the role played by Clinton White House in blocking United Nations Peacekeepers from doing their jobs and the role played by Rwanda-based French troops in turning a blind eye to the genocidal maniacs killing Tutsis in parts of the country under direct French control? And the subsequent flight of those maniacs from justice through that same French-controlled territory? Mary, its not a good idea to delve into an area where you do not have enough knowledge to discuss. BTW, I am well-versed in United States history, so I can speak confidently about it without any problems. I am not talking of nonsense on Wikipedia. I am talking of real knowledge. Do you possess the same level of knowledge on Rwanda?

  • Mary

    Maazi,

    Everyone is wrong except you. Hmmmmm. When will I die? What food should I eat? Will my family be happy? Does God really only exist as he does in your mind?

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    [Sorry all of the others…

    Maazi, fortunately, is not the typical African, or Ugandan. Carrying a huge chip aggressively around. And, I am a Ugandan, not Rwandese. For some reason, I dont ‘blame’ the west as vociferously for the genocide in Rwanda. Sometimes, I think it gets to time we owned up to our failures… and blame not historical accidents.

    ….

    and, there are some who glory in our madness. Fact. Independent of skin colour, continent of birth. There are those who revel in our madness.]

  • Lynn David

    Maazi… …if you think that the Ugandan people will bend over and accept rubbish ideology such as gayism, same-sex marriage or gay adoption rights then you clearly deluded.

    I doubt that any individual gay or lesbian in Uganda at this time much cares that you accept any of what you name. What they would like to see is that their rights of association and privacy be upheld and not condemned in law and that the exercise of those rights should not preclude any other right.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    What we would like is our lives not threatened by execution, judicial or non judicial, for loving our lovers.

    What we would like is the continuous persecution, overt and covert to stop.

    What we would like is to be recognised as human beings. Similar to our heterosexual counterparts.

    But, denying our humanity in the name of not giving in to the ‘homosexual agenda’ is what drives those who feel so much hate of us.

  • Maazi NCO

    Maazi, fortunately, is not the typical African, or Ugandan. Carrying a huge chip aggressively around. And, I am a Ugandan, not Rwandese.</blockquote

    GayUganda,

    I understand your need to apologize for Westerners who bankroll your propaganda. It wouldn't make sense to antagonize the very people who are your greatest fans. I completely understand. I will probably argue that it is you who is not a typical African since a typical African man will marry a lady, procreate and look after his nuclear and extended family as dictated by established African customs and tradition. Defending sodomy and rallying a foreign movement to back you up is not typically African at all. I will argue that its quite un-African.

    What we would like is our lives not threatened by execution, judicial or non judicial, for loving our lovers.

    Well, all you have to do is obey the law of the land. In Uganda, gayism is a sex crime and it is the responsibility of the State to prosecute those who fall foul of the law. Its as simple as that. If you don’t like it then emigrate to the West. BTW, it is brilliant propaganda to keep insisting that you are in constant danger of being executed by the Ugandan State. I guess it is a good rallying cry for your Western fans.

    But, denying our humanity in the name of not giving in to the ‘homosexual agenda’ is what drives those who feel so much hate of us.

    This is just your propaganda speaking. There is indeed a Gay Agenda for Africa funded and packaged by Western NGOs and pushed by people like you. I can accept that no private individual or group of individuals should be allowed to take the law into their own hands in the form of vigilante violence against criminals. But it is the right of the State to prosecute people who are guilty of any offence including the sex crime you are defending.

  • Maazi NCO

    Maazi, fortunately, is not the typical African, or Ugandan. Carrying a huge chip aggressively around. And, I am a Ugandan, not Rwandese.

    GayUganda,

    I understand your need to apologize for Westerners who bankroll your propaganda. It wouldn’t make sense to antagonize the very people who are your greatest fans. I completely understand. I will probably argue that it is you who is not a typical African since a typical African man will marry a lady, procreate and look after his nuclear and extended family as dictated by established African customs and tradition. Defending sodomy and rallying a foreign movement to back you up is not typically African at all. I will argue that its quite un-African.

    What we would like is our lives not threatened by execution, judicial or non judicial, for loving our lovers

    .

    Well, all you have to do is obey the law of the land. In Uganda, gayism is a sex crime and it is the responsibility of the State to prosecute those who fall foul of the law. Its as simple as that. If you don’t like it then emigrate to the West. BTW, it is brilliant propaganda to keep insisting that you are in constant danger of being executed by the Ugandan State. I guess it is a good rallying cry for your Western fans.

    But, denying our humanity in the name of not giving in to the ‘homosexual agenda’ is what drives those who feel so much hate of us.

    This is just your propaganda speaking. There is indeed a Gay Agenda for Africa funded and packaged by Western NGOs and pushed by people like you. I can accept that no private individual or group of individuals should be allowed to take the law into their own hands in the form of vigilante violence against criminals. But it is the right of the State to prosecute people who are guilty of any offence including the sex crime you are defending.

  • Maazi NCO

    I doubt that any individual gay or lesbian in Uganda at this time much cares that you accept any of what you name. What they would like to see is that their rights of association and privacy be upheld and not condemned in law and that the exercise of those rights should not preclude any other right.

    Lynn Davids,

    Please do not get carried away by your successes in the United States. In Africa, libertarian ideology is not widely accepted. We believe that individual rights must go hand in hand with responsibility and group rights. Our African Charter on Human Rights have been used successfully across Africa by private individuals to defend the rights of women, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, etc, because it grants freedom from discrimination on grounds of race, gender, religion, socio-economic class and ethnicity. But the same Charter is crystal clear that any individual right must be exercised with due regards for common interest, security and morality. In fact, there are sections in the Charter devoted to group rights and the promotion of our cultural values, etc. Therefore any freedom of association that interferes with the right of Africans to maintain their cultural beliefs on the subject of family/community structure is null and void. This explains why gay lobby groups are refused recognition by the African Commission for Human and People’s Rights (ACHPR) while groups associated with women rights, child rights, rights of poor people, rights of people living with AIDS, etc, are welcomed enthusiastically as partners of the ACHPR.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Uh,

    Sometimes I wonder how far you will go. In saying you hate me but dont hate me.

    The difference, is the difference.

    Thanks Maazi for your very eloquent explanation of my persecution. And, for your information, I doubt anyone reading these posts would doubt that you persecute me.

    I am un-African… oh yes. I think I do rub it in, dont I? Do you froth when angry? Completes the picture.

    I remember, I stated before that you would like to deny my existence. Ha, how you protested.

    Yet, your very words put the lie to you.

    Maazi, Maazi, I wish you were more of a challenge to debate. Frankly, it kind of insults my intelligence…. Yet, you are the better read…! But, the more we debate, the more you prove my points.

    You hate me. you would love to have me killed. You have a huge chip on your shoulder about your Africanness. You have lived for years in Britain and the US, and, deep inside you carry this absolute need to blame them for all the ills of your country. Are you ashamed on the deep inside, on how your country doesnt measure up to theirs?

    Duh, Maazi, from being blamed for everything because I am gay, I have learnt a valuable lesson in the quirk of humanity to blame others for our ills. You are yet to learn that, arent you? Yet to learn the difference between self serving rhetoric and deductive truths.

    Dear Maazi, as a fellow African, and as a gay African, let me give you a few tips of life’s lessons which you will not have the chance to learn.

    One, true pride doesnt come from tearing down others. That shows how insecure you are. True pride comes from building up others to build yourself up.

    No, I will not expand on that. I know you will hate me for stating things like that, but, I guess I have to bear this burden…. That is why I am very happy when you express your opinions as YOUR opinions. Not as African, or Ugandan opinions.

    Because, frankly, this poor gay Ugandan doesnt want to be associated with your level of logical reasoning. It embarasses him.

  • ken

    gayuganda,

    would you be willing to state how much money you have received from European/US (“Western”) sources, either personally or for any organizations you run?

    Personally, I’m quite curious to see how that would compare to the amounts Martin Ssempa and David Bhati have received from the European/US sources.

  • Lynn David

    Yeah, Maazi, you always fall back on that time and time again. What does it have to do with anything? Your Ugandan constitution requires a citizen to perform these duties:

    (a) to be loyal and patriotic to Uganda and promote her well being;

    (b) to engage in gainful work for the good of that citizen, family and for the

    common good and contribute to national development;

    (c) to contribute to the well-being of the community where that citizen lives;

    (d) to promote responsible parenthood;

    (e) to encourage national unity and living in harmony with others;

    (f) to promote democracy and rule of law; and

    (g) to know the Constitution and other laws and to uphold and defend them.

    What in being gay keeps one from doing upholding that if there would be no law criminalizing homosexual behaviors among consenting adults?

    But in Uganda there is the right to privacy, association and speech and yet these seeem to be denied some. I also read that Article 32 of your constitution says something to the effect that:

    Special provisions for disadvantaged groups.

    (1) The State must take positive steps in favour of the groups disadvantaged on the basis of their sex, age, disability or for any other reason created by history, tradition or custom, so as to correct the imbalances against those groups.

    (2) Laws, cultures, customs and traditions which are against the dignity or interests of women or other disadvantaged groups are prohibited.

    It seems that gays, lesbians and similar minorities are disadvantaged by Ugandan history, tradition and custom and the state should take positive steps in their favor. Heck, I’d wager that Pastor Ssempa would go so far as to call a homosexual orientation a disability in your culture. He and others were happy to have to have a trio of preachers from America over and say just about that.

    But even your Article 37 says: “A person has a right to belong to, enjoy, practise, profess, maintain and promote any culture, cultural institution, language, tradition, creed or religion in community with others.” And gee, wouldn’t you know it but just about every where else it’s called the gay (sub)culture.

    But then again….

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Hi Ken,

    I do love talking to new people.

    But, I dont like rehearsing old arguments.

    Now, it is up to you to believe that I am paid to be gay. Or that I am doing what I do because I am paid, by ‘rich American and European homosexual groups’ of course.

    Matters of belief are rarely changed by reason. It is your absolute right to believe what you want to believe.

    In fact, Minister Nsaba Buturo once told the Monitor, and they published it, that Gayuganda was given to share part of 25 Million USD. Of course, I was very happy. I wrote to the Honourable Minister, and told him that I had not known of the money due me. So, I was eagerly awaiting for the money transfer, or check. Or would it have been contraband. Sadly, the minister didnt reply, or verify the source of his information.

    But, Ken, you can believe that I got the 25 Million dollars….. your right to belief is not questioned.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    Lynn David,

    It is very funny that we as gay people are denied the protection of those provisions of the constitution.

    In fact, a law was written which was meant to kind of solidify that exclusion. In the process of getting a legal challenge to it. Good, upright Ugandans like Maazi sincerely believe that us gay perverts cant be protected by language like that. So, like has been done in the US and elsewhere, we will challenge why we should be any less than our heterosexual friends….!

    Activist judges, you know…!

  • Maazi NCO

    Lynn David,

    It is very funny that we as gay people are denied the protection of those provisions of the constitution…….So, like has been done in the US and elsewhere, we will challenge why we should be any less than our heterosexual friends….!

    Activist judges, you know…!

    GayUganda,

    I am a great fan of people who use the courts to uphold the supreme law of the land. Recently, the journalist Andrew Mwenda got the much-abused sedition law struck down by the courts on grounds of unconstitutionality. If you really believe that your deviant behaviour is protected by our constitution, then by all means available, please sue the government. Use the money given to you by your European and American masters to go to court. Who knows you might get a demented American-style activist judge in Uganda willing to declare your behaviour legally protected. May be you will get Judge Vaughn Walker—the gay sex practitioner—who ruled unsurprisingly against California’s Proposition 8. On a more serious note, when you do lose the court case, it may be wise to pack your bags and embark on a one-way journey to San Francisco. I am sure Lynn David can make the necessary arrangements for your comfort.

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    [politely]

    Thanks dear Maazi, for your sage advice.

    I assure you, I will explore all possibilities.

    Of course I do have an aversion to leaving my beautiful country, but, that is certainly not shared by you. But thanks for the advice.

  • Lynn David

    Maazi….. it may be wise to pack your bags and embark on a one-way journey to San Francisco. I am sure Lynn David can make the necessary arrangements for your comfort.

    Only if he wants to live out in the sticks on a farm in the middle of the country. Not all gay men take to cities, I can’t stand them.

  • Maazi NCO

    Thanks dear Maazi, for your sage advice. I assure you, I will explore all possibilities.

    GayUganda,

    You are welcome. Explore all the possibilities, including leaving the country when you inevitably lose the case. BTW, I will advise you to consult gay sex practitioners in Botswana. A couple of years ago, they did sue their government for discrimination on grounds of something they called “sexual orientation”. They were defeated twice and were forced to pay costs to the government. Hopefully, you can beat the record in Uganda. This advice is free of charge.

    Only if he wants to live out in the sticks on a farm in the middle of the country. Not all gay men take to cities, I can’t stand them.

    Lynn,

    I am sure GayUganda can adjust to that sort of life. After all, he is from Uganda, which is largely rural !!

  • http://gayuganda.blogspot.com gayuganda

    [Sigh…..]

    Ok, I give up. I bow out…. the attempt is decidedly impossible.

    Hate, prejudice, blind ignorance, those are things which are supremely resistant to any and all education.

    Maazi, I leave the floor to you. Here I go, to make sure that I stay in Uganda. Try your best to make sure that I leave.

    And, my the best man win….!

  • Maazi NCO

    I will advise you to consult gay sex practitioners in Botswana. A couple of years ago, they did sue their government for discrimination on grounds of something they called “sexual orientation”. They were defeated twice and were forced to pay costs to the government

    To my earlier comment reproduced above, I forgot to add that the Botswana government sued was the one headed by Festus Mogae. Yes, the same man that got Warren Throckmorton all excited.

    And, my the best man win….!

    I am assuming that what you wanted to say was “MAY the best man win !” If my assumption is right, then my reply will be that there is simply no competition so the issue of somebody winning or losing does not even arise in the first place. Gayism is unacceptable to African people and that is that. External pressure from the West to force African nations to legally enshrine this depraved sexual behaviour is useless and even counter-productive.