Uganda: Committee Chair describes Anti-Homosexuality Bill timetable

This morning I spoke with Stephen Tashobya, the chair of the Ugandan Parliament’s Legal and Affairs committee. This committee has jurisdiction over the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. I asked Hon. Tashobya if he had any current plan for action on the AHB. He told me that the Parliament was currently preoccupied with the upcoming Christmas break and then the elections. About the AHB, he said, “So I suppose I can say it will come up after elections which is the 18th of February.”

He said he did not promise that the bill would be next in line, but said

Ideally, what we are trying to do is to ensure that we clear all the bills that are before the committee before the end of this Parliament in May. I am not in a position to say we are going to handle it in this time framework, but we are trying to get out all of the bills by the end of May, including that one [the AHB].

Mr. Tashobya confirmed that if the bill is not considered during this Parliament, then a new bill would need to be tabled in the next one. He then outlined the procedure he envisioned for the bill.

What I can say is that there is special interest in that bill, both for and against and we are mindful of the interest in that bill. We are looking first of all in the context of the Parliament and the public interest, we are trying to see how we can handle it. We shall have public hearings, where all come and give their views and finally the committee report will take into account those views we are receiving from the public.

Mr. Tashobya said that the committee report would be presented then to the Parliament as a whole and discussed prior to a second and third reading. Often the required second and third reading occurs on the same day, followed by the vote, also on that same day. If passed, the bill is sent on to President Museveni. At that point, Museveni could do nothing and allow the bill to become law or he could send it back to Parliament if there were elements he did not like. However, according to Mr. Tashobya, that would be “unusual” saying, “In the life of this Parliament, he has not sent a bill back.”

For opponents of the AHB, it appears that the public opportunity to speak out will be in a relatively short window in the public hearings convened by the Legal and Parliamentary Committee sometime between late February and early May.

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  • Richard Willmer

    This comes as no surprise to some of us, of course.

    I actually rather liked the sense of ‘uncertainty’ in the committee chair’s comments. Much can happen between now and then, and a victorious M7 will, of course, have a much ‘freer’ hand when it comes to his part in all this (if indeed he has required to pay a part at all).

  • Maazi NCO

    This comes as no surprise to some of us, of course.

    I actually rather liked the sense of ‘uncertainty’ in the committee chair’s comments. Much can happen between now and then, and a victorious M7 will, of course, have a much ‘freer’ hand when it comes to his part in all this (if indeed he has required to pay a part at all).

    And the Uganda expert speaks !!! M7 will have “freer” hand?? Hahahahahaha

  • Richard Willmer

    You know what I meant, Maazi.

    Assuming he is elected president (a fair assumption, I think), he can respond to the overall situation as he thinks best without having to worry about ‘winning votes’.

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  • Richard Willmer

    Another point: once the election is past, a number (maybe considerable) of members of the Eighth Parliament will have, morally- (though not technically-) speaking, lost their mandate (and Buturo may be among them, of course). This will strengthen the case for the President to not sign into law bills that might be ‘passed’ after the election and before the Ninth Parliament is installed.

  • Lynn David

    If you believe the poll on the Monitor (?) website, Museveni won’t be president.

    And if you believe that I have some swampland in Indiana I could sell you.

  • Richard Willmer

    How much? Lol!

    It was, of course, always a key ‘first objective’ of the anti-Bahatiism campaign to ensure that the Bill not NOT voted on BEFORE the election. This ‘first objective’ looks as if it has been achieved.

  • Lynn David

    About 150 acres. Not all swampland, but in any given year it is likely to be flooded by the Wabash River at least twice.

    Really, just before the election? I was thinking more like ever. The bill is not just one meant to criminalize behavior; the bill truly attempts to be a one that engineers a society. That’s plain creepy and rather impossible.

  • Lynn David

    A survey by the Forum on Religion and Public Life released in April found that 79 percent of Ugandans consider “homosexual behavior morally wrong,” with even higher percentages in several other African countries.

    New numbers? Certainly not the 90+% Maazi likes to throw out. The “Forum on Religion and Public Life” is I guess the “Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.” Pew has a transcript concerning their research: Tolerance and Tension: Islam and Christianity in Sub-Saharan Africa and the Executive Summary of the Poll of 19 SubSaharan Countries.

    64% of Ugandan Christians favor making the Bible the official law of the land. 66% of Ugandan Muslims favor making Sharia the official law of the land. 62% of Ugandan Christians think Jesus will return during their lifetime; and 64% of Ugandan Muslims believe the Caliphate will reconstitute during their lifetimes. 73% of Ugandans think Western music, movies and television have hurt morality, but still 55% of Ugandans like them. But I cannot find anything about how homosexuality is viewed in the Executive Summary. So, maybe somewhere else?

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘First objective’; Bahatiism is rather more deeply entrenched than we might like to suppose, and this whole campaign has a LOT longer to run. It isn’t just a US ‘christianist’ import (as you know only too well, Lynn) – even some Ugandan atheists are pretty homophobic. And there’s still the whole ‘macho-machete-culture’ to contend with.

    But we keep talking to people (almost every day!), and little by little …

  • Lynn David

    Finally found it. You have to go to the Pew Forum’s interactive database on Africa then choose Morality and Culture/Homosexuality. And indeed the number for Uganda is 79% believe homosexuality is morally wrong. That is quite a bit less than Kenya’s 98%.

    And this post would likely go behind my other one, but may show up first!

  • Lynn David

    16% of Ugandans said homosexuality was not an issue. And 4% said it depends or had no opinion.

  • Richard Willmer

    That 78% is well down on the 95% so often quoted by the ‘Maazis’ of this world. Bahati has made many people think hard about the issue. And when people start to to THINK, they start to make sense …

    17% Movement in one year is good progress. Two more years at this rate, and a majority of Ugandans will be on the side of peace and progress – to the benefit of ALL Ugandans. (My own experience of Ugandans is that they are rather more reasonable than the Bahatiites like to paint them.)

  • Maazi NCO

    The bill is not just one meant to criminalize behavior; the bill truly attempts to be a one that engineers a society.

    Not really. The bill strengthens the status-quo. It is the gay lobbyists who want to re-engineer society to accept the idea that it is okay for another man to penetrate another man’s anus and okay for members of the same sex to marry. These are the ones that want to distort African culture, customs and traditions.

    That 78% is well down on the 95% so often quoted by the ‘Maazis’ of this world. Bahati has made many people think hard about the issue. And when people start to to THINK, they start to make sense …

    First of all there are issues as to how Pew associates arrived at such a statistic Definitely more than 98% of Ugandans are opposed to gayism. In fact, Kenyans by comparison are actually more liberal than Ugandans, but the statistics claims that 98% of Kenyans are opposed to gayism while only 79% of Ugandans are opposed. What a joke! I think someone in the American poll organization has been massaging the statistics in the wake of Bahati’s Bill and in response to pressure from pro-gay lobbyists in America who want to give the false impression that a large minority of the Ugandan people are sympathetic to gayism.

    17% Movement in one year is good progress. Two more years at this rate, and a majority of Ugandans will be on the side of peace and progress – to the benefit of ALL Ugandans. (My own experience of Ugandans is that they are rather more reasonable than the Bahatiites like to paint them.)

    I won’t be shocked if Pew Associates conducts another survey next year and find that 55% of Ugandans now back gayism and by 2012, Pew Associates will report that 76% of Ugandans have declared gayism a good blessing to a family. Please continue to deceive yourselves with massaged figures.

    Another point: once the election is past, a number (maybe considerable) of members of the Eighth Parliament will have, morally- (though not technically-) speaking, lost their mandate (and Buturo may be among them, of course). This will strengthen the case for the President to not sign into law bills that might be ‘passed’ after the election and before the Ninth Parliament is installed.

    Your analysis is flawed because of gross over-simplification, which is attributable to your superficial understanding of how the Ugandan State deals with “certain matters”. My opinion is that you should watch, wait and see what happens rather than passing off your wishful conjectures as expert punditry on Ugandan politics.

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  • Richard Willmer

    Hello ‘Maazi’

    (What a surprise to hear from you!)

    My, my, you do have a lot to say for yourself this evening!

    On the Bahati Bill: I would hardly call all the ‘informing’, the death sentences and the clampdown on freedom of expression simply as a set of measures that ‘strengthen the status quo’. Bahati’s Bill is gruesomely revolutionary in its shocking severity and scope.

    As for you continued rubbishing of my conjectures: I find that rather reassuring, actually. The closer one’s opponent is to the truth, the more wishes to ‘rubbish’ him!

    Oh, by the way: have you yet sorted out your own views on ‘privacy’?

    Remember what you said before (about those who ‘do their stuff in private’ being ‘left alone’)?

    Have you decided what you NOW think?

    If you’ve changed your mind since you wrote what you did in December 2009, what justification in principle have you for so doing?

    And how’s the ‘evidence’ for ‘recruitment’ coming along?

    Got any yet?

    Can we see one of these 2007 leaflets that you claim was about ‘recruitment’ (I hear they were about health promotion, actually)?

  • Lynn David

    Maazi…. First of all there are issues as to how Pew associates arrived at such a statistic … someone in the American poll organization has been massaging the statistics in the wake of Bahati’s Bill and in response to pressure from pro-gay lobbyists in America who want to give the false impression that a large minority of the Ugandan people are sympathetic to gayism.

    The Pew Research Center is one of the most respected polling organizations in the US.

    The Pew Forum is one of seven projects that make up the Pew Research Center, a nonpartisan “fact tank” that provides information on the issues, attitudes and trends shaping America and the world. The Pew Research Center does this by conducting public opinion polling and social science research; by analyzing news coverage; and by holding forums and briefings. It does not take positions on policy issues.

  • Maazi NCO

    Lynn Davids,

    I am sure MasterCard, Visa, PayPal, Amazon, Bank of America were all independent organizations and non-partisan until Uncle Sam government quietly ordered them to cut links with the whistle-blowers of WikiLeaks. The idea that the number of Ugandans who are dead set against gayism declined from 95% (2007 figures) to 79% (2010 figures) within the space of only 3 years is a ridiculous joke. It is most likely that euro-american gay lobbyists convinced the Pew Research Associates to massage the figures assuring them that it will “keep Ugandan gay sex practitioners safe”. There is no way Kenya, Tanzania and host of other relatively “liberal” African nations will have more citizens disapproving of gayism than Uganda. The Uganda figures were falsified because of the Bahati Bill.

  • Maazi NCO

    Richard, your last commentary above doesn’t make much sense and will not draw any detailed response from me. May I suggest you wait and see what happens rather than sitting behind a computer thousands of miles away in London and imagining that your fantasies will turn to reality on Ugandan soil.

  • Wendy Leigh

    What is it the difference Maazi, then heterosexual men penetrating female rectums or perform or receive oral sex? It is all defined as sodomy. Don’t even try to claim it doesn’t happen.

  • Maazi NCO

    What is it the difference Maazi, then heterosexual men penetrating female rectums or perform or receive oral sex? It is all defined as sodomy. Don’t even try to claim it doesn’t happen.

    The above quote proves once again that most you western chaps are hedonists who are bent on spreading your depraved mores to our homeland. I will not even dignify such a depraved quote with any response. Just be rest assured that the Ugandan State shall use force of legislation to contain Western-directed militant propagation of sexual perversion on its soil.

  • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe Brain

    Funny, I thought it was Ssempa who obsessed about such issues. Even showing porn films in church.

  • Wendy Leigh

    Maazi is not being intellectually honest. Whats new.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    I asked you questions.

    Apologies if they weren’t entirely clear to you. (I’m a bit busy now, but will clarify them for you, and others, later.)

  • Richard Willmer

    OK, ‘Maazi’

    Here’s my first set of questions for you:-

    Remember what you said before about those who ‘do their stuff in private’ being ‘left alone’?

    (I am in a position remind you if do not remember.)

    Did this mean that you then considered it appropriate for the authorities to ‘turn a blind eye’ to private sexual acts pursuant to informed consent?

    Have you decided what you NOW think?

    If you’ve changed your mind since you wrote what you did in December 2009, what justification in principle have you for so doing?

    I’ll put my ‘follow-up’ questions later.

  • anteros

    bahati’s bill and the debate it provoked seems to have warmed up more ugandans to the concept of human rights (most notably privacy) for all regardless of sexual orientation… that prompted ssempa’s infamous panic response to ‘the sexual activities of consenting adults conducted in private’ which he claims is ‘the major argument they have’.

    thanks to the fierce debate prompted by the bill, and the ludicrous claims of ‘recruitment’ without any believable evidence to support those claims, more ugandans are now more aware of the benign and victimless nature of homosexuality as compared to things like corruption and human sacrifice that have killed and maimed millions of ugandans but have not been dealt with.

    I think that might explain the change in figures. It’s a fact, the resultant impact the bill has had on the homosexuality debate in uganda has been the expression and understanding of more liberal views, including those views that do not ‘promote’ or approve of homosexuality while identifying and rejecting discrimination for what it is …regardless of which group is being discriminated against, and regardless of how that discrimination is disguised (religion/culture/law).

    still a long way to go, but ugandans aren’t dumb and the debate the bill provoked will continue to reduce irrational hate towards lgbt ugandans.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ Anteros : I very much agree with your points – especially the last … Ugandans are most certainly NOT dumb (my boss is from Uganda!), are often refreshingly self-critical and do seem very prepared to question injustice and discrimination in all its forms.

  • Maazi NCO

    bahati’s bill and the debate it provoked seems to have warmed up more ugandans to the concept of human rights (most notably privacy) for all regardless of sexual orientation…….

    thanks to the fierce debate prompted by the bill, and the ludicrous claims of ‘recruitment’ without any believable evidence to support those claims, more ugandans are now more aware of the benign and victimless nature of homosexuality as compared to things like corruption and human sacrifice that have killed and maimed millions of ugandans but have not been dealt with…

    still a long way to go, but ugandans aren’t dumb and the debate the bill provoked will continue to reduce irrational hate towards lgbt ugandans.

    If you are Ugandan, then I am sure that you know that what you wrote is bunkum because there isn’t much of any debate among Ugandans on whether gayism is a “human right” or not . It is already established how the vast majority of Ugandans (more than 98%) feel about that behaviour. What we have are some local gay rights advocates making noises in Kampala along with their foreign sponsors. The fact remains that the Pew Associates statistics were falsified because of the Bahati Bill. There is no way such a steep decline could have occurred within a relatively short time unless if the Pew Researchers surveyed the tiny population gay sex practitioners and their pro-gay allies almost exclusively. In any case, I doubt that forged figures provided by Pew Research Associates will change the reality on the ground.

  • Richard Willmer

    OK, ‘Maazi’

    Here’s my first set of questions for you:-

    Remember what you said before about those who ‘do their stuff in private’ being ‘left alone’?

    (I am in a position remind you if do not remember.)

    Did this mean that you then considered it appropriate for the authorities to ‘turn a blind eye’ to private sexual acts pursuant to informed consent?

    Have you decided what you NOW think?

    If you’ve changed your mind since you wrote what you did in December 2009, what justification in principle have you for so doing?

    I’ll put my ‘follow-up’ questions later.

  • Richard Willmer
  • Maazi NCO

    nteresting UG blog:

    http://quitstorm.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-should-we-handle-gays-in-uganda.html

    Yet another propaganda attempt to re-construct gayism into an immutable identity like race or gender. The Ugandan people do not buy into that. This is the fact. The blog article is neither here nor there. Anyone could have made up anything. Gay sex advocates are experts in telling lies and making up things.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    Here’s my first set of questions for you:-

    Remember what you said before about those who ‘do their stuff in private’ being ‘left alone’?

    (I am in a position remind you if do not remember.)

    Did this mean that you then considered it appropriate for the authorities to ‘turn a blind eye’ to private sexual acts pursuant to informed consent?

    Have you decided what you NOW think?

    If you’ve changed your mind since you wrote what you did in December 2009, what justification in principle have you for so doing?

    I’ll put my ‘follow-up’ questions later.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    That 98% figure of yours is pure fiction, by the way. Opinion in UG is very fluid at the moment.

  • Wendy Leigh

    These professional bodies unanimously state:1. Homosexuality is an normal, naturally occurring trait2. “Reparative therapy” or “conversion therapy” does not work and is harmful to those subjected to it.

    AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION

    Sexual orientation and homosexualityhttp://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

    Homosexuality: Nature or NurtureRyan D. Johnson April 30, 2003http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

    APA Officially Rejects Reorientation Treatment for Homosexuals — Overwhelming research from the past hundred years rejected due to “serious design flaws.”http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/aug/09080608.html

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION

    POSITION STATEMENT Homosexuality and Civil RightsApproved by the Board of Trustees, December 1973Approved by the Assembly, 1973http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/197310.aspx

    POSITION STATEMENT Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies)Approved by the Board of Trustees, March 2000Approved by the Assembly, May 2000

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

    AMA Policy Regarding Sexual Orientationhttp://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee/ama-policy-regarding-sexual-orientation.shtml

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS

    Policy Statement: Homosexuality and Adolescence (RE9332)http://web.archive.org/web/20031212181440/http://www.aap.org/policy/05072.html

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SOCIAL WORKERS

    Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Issueshttp://www.socialworkers.org/resources/abstracts/abstracts/lesbian.asp

    Position Statement: “Reparative” and “Conversion” Therapies for Lesbians and Gay Menhttp://www.socialworkers.org/diversity/lgb/reparative.asp?print=1

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    UNITED PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS REJECT “REPARATIVE THERAPY” also called “CONVERSION THERAPY”http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_expr.htm

    The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association formed the “Just the Facts Coalition.” They developed and endorsed “Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel” in 1999.

    The primer says, in part:

    “The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a ‘cure.’

    “…health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people’s sexual orientation through ‘reparative therapy’ and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.” ?These professional bodies unanimously state:1. Homosexuality is an normal, naturally occurring trait2. “Reparative therapy” or “conversion therapy” does not work and is harmful to those subjected to it.

    AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION

    Sexual orientation and homosexualityhttp://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

    Homosexuality: Nature or NurtureRyan D. Johnson April 30, 2003http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

    APA Officially Rejects Reorientation Treatment for Homosexuals — Overwhelming research from the past hundred years rejected due to “serious design flaws.”http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/aug/09080608.html

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION

    POSITION STATEMENT Homosexuality and Civil RightsApproved by the Board of Trustees, December 1973Approved by the Assembly, 1973http://www.psych.org/Departments/EDU/Library/APAOfficialDocumentsandRelated/PositionStatements/197310.aspx

    POSITION STATEMENT Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies)Approved by the Board of Trustees, March 2000Approved by the Assembly, May 2000

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

    AMA Policy Regarding Sexual Orientationhttp://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/glbt-advisory-committee/ama-policy-regarding-sexual-orientation.shtml

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS

    Policy Statement: Homosexuality and Adolescence (RE9332)http://web.archive.org/web/20031212181440/http://www.aap.org/policy/05072.html

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SOCIAL WORKERS

    Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Issueshttp://www.socialworkers.org/resources/abstracts/abstracts/lesbian.asp

    Position Statement: “Reparative” and “Conversion” Therapies for Lesbians and Gay Menhttp://www.socialworkers.org/diversity/lgb/reparative.asp?print=1

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    UNITED PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS REJECT “REPARATIVE THERAPY” also called “CONVERSION THERAPY”http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_expr.htm

    The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association formed the “Just the Facts Coalition.” They developed and endorsed “Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel” in 1999.

    The primer says, in part:

    “The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a ‘cure.’

    “…health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people’s sexual orientation through ‘reparative therapy’ and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.” ?

  • Wendy Leigh

    Fortunately, I know that what Anteros claims is true. Conversations are happening all over Uganda about the actual definition of sodomy and how this bill will affect heterosexual Ugandans, and how it is being pushed through a false and discriminatory attack on a minority class. History will remember those who pushed false information for personal gain and an ideology of hate against their own countrymen.

  • anteros

    Maazi, please pay attention. Who said anything about ‘gayism’ being a human right? What has been acknowledged by Ugandans (even indirectly by ssempa’s poopoo rant) is that privacy is a human right that’s included in the Ugandan constitution. And while it is acknowledged in these debates that homosexuality is a cultural taboo in Uganda, it’s also acknowledged that whatever percentage of Ugandans disapprove bitterly of homosexuality does not and cannot deprive lgbt ugandan citizens of their constitutional right to privacy.

    There has also been an increased awareness of the importance of tolerance (not necessarily approval or even acceptance) in Uganda’s diverse society, thanks to the debate prompted by the bill. Ugandan society is nothing like the ancient conservative society it once was… everybody knows that, so I won’t bother myself with examples to support that fact. Following the debate around the bill, increased tolerance towards homosexuality is just another example of gradual but inevitable social change in Uganda. Ugandans are increasingly aware that it’s not a “western” vs African thing… it is acknowledged that African laws that criminalize homosexuality were adopted from the west, and that the west repealed those outdated laws decades ago in favour of more progressive laws (not because the west approves or promotes homosexuality, but because they identified the malignant nature of discrimination and appreciated the universal nature of concepts such as human rights and tolerance). It’s a global trend, resisting change is futile… that’s what more Ugandans have learned and more Ugandans will appreciate thanks to the global fuss and local debate brought about by bahati’s bill.

  • Richard Willmer

    More sensible analysis from Anteros.

  • Maazi NCO

    ‘Maazi’

    That 98% figure of yours is pure fiction by the way.

    On the matter of the Pew Research Statistics, I will not even bother to argue with someone thousands of miles away from Uganda. If you like claim that 99% of Ugandans agree with sexual perversion. It will not change the reality on the ground.

    Opinion in UG is very fluid at the moment.

    Opinion in Uganda is “very fluid at the moment”???—-and you know this from that crystal ball next to your computer thousands of miles away in London?? Buahahahahahahahaha :D

    Maazi, please pay attention. Who said anything about ‘gayism’ being a human right? What has been acknowledged by Ugandans (even indirectly by ssempa’s poopoo rant) is that privacy is a human right that’s included in the Ugandan constitution. And while it is acknowledged in these debates that homosexuality is a cultural taboo in Uganda, it’s also acknowledged that whatever percentage of Ugandans disapprove bitterly of homosexuality does not and cannot deprive lgbt ugandan citizens of their constitutional right to privacy, blah, blah

    The Pew Research Associates claimed that “11% of Ugandans see gayism as a morally acceptable”. This is —of course —the joke of the century. As for your comment on Ugandan people’s tolerance of gayism on grounds of “privacy”, I think you are living in cucumberland. While it is a given that most people will never advocate death sentence for gay sex, it is well known that most Ugandans cannot tolerate that behaviour under any circumstances.

    This talk about sanctity of privacy in one’s bedroom is the sort of noise that is heard emanating from a small circle of gay sex practitioners, a tiny number of extremely westernized Ugandans and some social activists whose NGOs are bought and paid for by western donors. But it is well known that the vast majority Ugandans are outside that small circle and can never tolerate gayism.

  • Maazi NCO

    Wendy Leigh,

    Thanks for providing a long list of American professional groups blackmailed into endorsing sexual deviance by the seemingly unstoppable euro-american gay juggernaut. Uganda is a sovereign state and will take charge of its own destiny. But thank you for taking the time to show-off these endorsements. I am sure it took years of lobbying, blackmailing, door-stepping and street protests to gain the endorsements. Unfortunately for you, in Africa, we are drawing the line.

  • Maazi NCO

    Wendy Leigh,

    BTW, as a person who lived and worked in the States, there was really no need to go through all that trouble. I know that all mainstream organizations in the USA dare not reject the received wisdom of the euro-american gay lobbyists which states that gayism is a great lifestyle.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    Here’s my first set of questions for you:-

    Remember what you said before about those who ‘do their stuff in private’ being ‘left alone’?

    (I am in a position remind you if do not remember.)

    Did this mean that you then considered it appropriate for the authorities to ‘turn a blind eye’ to private sexual acts pursuant to informed consent?

    Have you decided what you NOW think?

    If you’ve changed your mind since you wrote what you did in December 2009, what justification in principle have you for so doing?

    I’ll put my ‘follow-up’ questions later.

  • anteros

    Maazi, please try to focus a bit. Who said anything about “Ugandan people’s tolerance of gayism on grounds of privacy”? If you’re not a lazy thinker, then you’re playing dumb (not-so-cleverly conflating things in an attempt to distort logic for the sake of “winning” your own nonsensical debate as cheap consolation)… and that tactic’s getting old.

    Anyways, I hope your desperately reactionary comments on this website will still be accessible after homosexuality eventually gets decriminalized in Uganda… brilliant learning material for a history class.

  • Maazi NCO

    ‘Maazi’

    Here’s my first set of questions for you:-

    Remember what you said before about those who ‘do their stuff in private’ being ‘left alone’?

    (I am in a position remind you if do not remember.)

    Did this mean that you then considered it appropriate for the authorities to ‘turn a blind eye’ to private sexual acts pursuant to informed consent?

    Have you decided what you NOW think?

    If you’ve changed your mind since you wrote what you did in December 2009, what justification in principle have you for so doing?

    I’ll put my ‘follow-up’ questions later.

    In order to save you trouble of spamming the same block post of questions over and over again, I will give you a snappy reply—–I am not here to be psycho-analyzed. I am here to put across the viewpoint of most Ugandans on the subject of gayism and how they feel about persistent western interference in their internal affairs.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    What are frightened of? Why not just answer the questions?

  • Maazi NCO

    Maazi, please try to focus a bit. Who said anything about “Ugandan people’s tolerance of gayism on grounds of privacy”? If you’re not a lazy thinker, then you’re playing dumb (not-so-cleverly conflating things in an attempt to distort logic for the sake of “winning” your own nonsensical debate as cheap consolation)… and that tactic’s getting old.

    Cheap insults will not get you anywhere. Duh !!!

    Anyways, I hope your desperately reactionary comments on this website will still be accessible after homosexuality eventually gets decriminalized in Uganda… brilliant learning material for a history class.

    Decriminalization? Keep fantasizing. :-)

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    Are you going to answer my questions? Yes or No?

  • Maazi NCO

    What are frightened of?

    You are deluded if you think I am afraid.

    Why not just answer the questions?

    Because I have already done so in two of my earlier posts in which I clearly told you the reason for the slight adjustment in my views on this subject matter. I also recall telling you in one of those posts that I have no wish to dwell further on that December 2009 article. When I say something, I usually mean it. Thanks

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  • Maazi NCO

    Are you going to answer my questions? Yes or No?

    Please refer to my earlier posts on that subject matter. I will not repeat myself again on this matter

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    I didn’t think your answer was very clear. Did you think then that it was appropriate for the authorities to turn a blind eye? And do you think so now?

  • Wendy Leigh

    477,000 bribed organizations, or a few fake ones created to sell debunked propaganda to sell a 330 plus year old fraudulent product the the African people??? Are you that daft Maazi?

  • Wendy Leigh

    477,000 bribed organizations, or a few fake ones to sell 30 plus y/o debunked propaganda and fraud to the African people? Are you daft Maazi?

    *corrected*

  • Michael Bussee

    I don’t get it. How is Ugandan culture threatened by two adults of the same gender having consensual sex in private — or by free speech? It must be on pretty shakey ground if that is the case. Doesn’t Uganda have more serious issues to deal with?

  • anteros

    Maazi, you felt cheaply insulted by that description of your comments? I wasn’t interested in a response, but if that’s the best response you can give then that says a lot.

    You should learn to appreciate compliments… “playing dumb” was me giving you the benefit of the doubt. I’m starting to wonder though…

    Go easy on yourself. The sky won’t fall down the day homosexuality is decriminalized in Uganda, you’ll see. Life will go on and you’ll learn that lgbt Ugandans aren’t necessarily bad people… and that would mean less stress for you and others who may be carrying the unnecessary burden of intolerance.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    I’ll put request for ‘clarification’ another way:

    Are you in favour of people informing on others they suspect, or know, are engaging in private consensual sex? Yes or No?

  • Richard Willmer

    Anteros

    ‘Maazi’ insults other people all the time, whilst hiding behind a false name!

  • Richard Willmer

    … and he is clearly afraid to give clear answers to simple questions.

  • Maazi NCO

    Simply because of your calm statement, I will attempt to answer your question carefully—

    QUESTION:

    I don’t get it. How is Ugandan culture threatened by two adults of the same gender having consensual sex in private — or by free speech?

    ANSWER:

    It wont make sense if you are from a highly individualistic society like USA where everybody is made to mind his/her own business and not to interfere with the privacy of another person. Uganda and Africa as a whole, by contrast, is a highly communal society where the personal business of any person is also business of his/her community and family. As a guy who was partly-educated in Europe and began his professional career in United States before returning home, I completely understand your liberal attitudes, but you people clearly do not understand us. You keep belly-aching about a bunch of white American evangelicals coming to Uganda as if every one in Uganda is an evangelical christian or as if Ugandan people’s deep antipathy to gayism started with the 2009 visit of Scott Lively and company.

  • Maazi NCO

    Maazi, you felt cheaply insulted by that description of your comments? I wasn’t interested in a response, but if that’s the best response you can give then that says a lot.

    You should learn to appreciate compliments… “playing dumb” was me giving you the benefit of the doubt. I’m starting to wonder though…

    Go easy on yourself. The sky won’t fall down the day homosexuality is decriminalized in Uganda, you’ll see. Life will go on and you’ll learn that lgbt Ugandans aren’t necessarily bad people… and that would mean less stress for you and others who may be carrying the unnecessary burden of intolerance.

    I wonder why you gay sex practitioners get overly emotional and throw around cheap insults whenever someone disagrees with you. In any case, I think it may be a good idea for you to take a break for the rest of the day.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    What about the ‘morality’ of the situation? Surely persecuting stable same-sex couples, while letting straight people who ‘sleep around’ get off ‘scott free’, is morally-suspect, to say the least. This I believe would apply to any culture, as it is a fundamental moral question – dealing with issues of respect, and cause and effect that apply in any part of the globe.

  • anteros

    It wont make sense if you are

    from a highly individualistic

    society like USA where

    everybody is made to mind

    his/her own business and not

    to interfere with the privacy

    of another person. Uganda

    and Africa as a whole, by

    contrast, is a highly communal

    society where the personal

    business of any person is also

    business of his/her

    community and family.

    Actually, there was a time when this was very true… the days when wearing earrings on men, jeans, dreadlocks, mini skirts would result in an individual being ostracized… but even rural uganda isnt nearly as ‘communal’ as it was 5 years ago.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    You’ve still not clarified the matter of ‘informing’. (Most African men I know guard their privacy very closely.)

  • Maazi NCO

    ‘Maazi’

    What about the ‘morality’ of the situation? Surely persecuting stable same-sex couples, while letting straight people who ‘sleep around’ get off ‘scott free’, is morally-suspect, to say the least. This I believe would apply to any culture, as it is a fundamental moral question – dealing with issues of respect, and cause and effect that apply in any part of the globe.

    Perhaps, you should gather a group of well-armed gay sex lobbyists trained by sex deviants serving in Western armies and stage an armed insurrection in Uganda. When you have taken over Kampala, you can declare yourself leader and decriminalize gayism by proclamation of a decree. You can seek the help of Anteros in making that happen. May be Anteros and yourself can win US Congressional Medal of Honour for protecting gayism in Uganda and opening a new colony for San Francisco gays to go on exotic holidays.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    Do you ‘sleep around’?

  • Maazi NCO

    Actually, there was a time when this was very true… the days when wearing earrings on men, jeans, dreadlocks, mini skirts would result in an individual being ostracized… but even rural uganda isnt nearly as ‘communal’ as it was 5 years ago.

    Of course, rural Uganda is very liberal !!! Hurray !! They will accept gayism and even behave like the latte-drinking liberals of New York and Maine. Anteros, please keep deluding yourself.

  • Maazi NCO

    ‘Maazi’

    Do you ‘sleep around’?

    That’s a very interesting question. The answer is NO. I know it may be a difficult answer for a gay sex practitioner to believe since they think everyone behaves like them.

  • Richard Willmer

    Well, neither do I. So there we are.

    Obviously, if you had chosen not to answer my question, I would have respected your privacy on the matter. Are you prepared to respect the privacy of your gay compatriots, or do you want others to ‘inform’ on them?

  • Maazi NCO

    Are you prepared to respect the privacy of your gay compatriots, or do you want others to ‘inform’ on them?

    If I do not respect the privacy of a common thief or a drug dealer then it is unlikely that I will respect the privacy of someone breaking the Sexual Offences Act of 2000. I would have thought that this would be fairly obvious to you.

  • Richard Willmer

    So you view people in a stable same-sex relationship as being the same as a ‘common thief’ or drug dealer? Enough said.

    What about those who threaten to murder their gay compatriots (or those whom they suspect might be gay)? What do you make of them?

  • anteros

    actually, politics isn’t my thing… but I’m confident that Ugandan politicians are fully capable of decriminalizing homosexuality in future… considering the number of politicians who volunteered their humble but audible resistance to the bill even in today’s climate of intolerance… it’s not a popularity or referendum issue… if Uganda were run according to majoritarianism, then family planning would probably be banned by now, Hinduism would probably be banned and Hindu Ugandans would probably be punished for idolatry in accordance with the Old Testament, Ugandans of asian descent and several other minorities would suffer more discrimination than they currently endure…

    My point? No need to divert to talk of invasion. Ugandans will eventually decriminalize homosexuality, in their own time… and people like bahati and Maazi have played a significant role in expediting the process.

  • Richard Willmer

    Bahati may prove to have been enormously helpful as far as progress towards a more just settlement for LGBT Ugandans is concerned. But it will take time, so we must keep campaigning.

    Despite what ‘Maazi’ says, opinion is shifting. (I’m in daily contact with several Ugandans, most of the them straight, but wanting a fairer deal for their gay compatriots. Two of my contacts are rather ‘well-connected’, shall we say …)

  • Maazi NCO

    actually, politics isn’t my thing… but I’m confident that Ugandan politicians are fully capable of decriminalizing homosexuality in future… considering the number of politicians who volunteered their humble but audible resistance to the bill even in today’s climate of intolerance… it’s not a popularity or referendum issue…

    So a few insignificant and failed politicians in donor-funded marginalized, collapsing and inconsequential political parties such as UPC or DP talk nonsense to win the Western master’s favour and you call it a break-through. In Parliament, nearly all legislators from NRM to UPC to FDC are one on this subject matter. The Bahati Bill was co-sponsored by a UPC legislator and FDC Majority leader in parliament has supported the bill enthusiastically. Please continue your self-delusion. I am not even sure why a minority race and minority religion is even being mentioned here. We are talking of an extremely depraved sexual behaviour which the law already prohibits and there is still room for stronger punitive measures to be taken.

    My point? No need to divert to talk of invasion. Ugandans will eventually decriminalize homosexuality, in their own time… and people like bahati and Maazi have played a significant role in expediting the process.

    Wishful thinking :-)

  • Wendy Leigh

    Maazi is a fake truth practitioner. Gay Ugandans have not been bought, bribed, trained or your favorite American term, “indoctrinated”. They happen just the same way it happens in the rest of the world and in the animal kingdom Maazi. It just happens, to about 10%. Even your sovereignty cannot undo that fact, and they are entitled to the same Constitutional protections that you are despite all your blustering and practiced nosiness.

  • Maazi NCO

    Despite what ‘Maazi’ says, opinion is shifting. (I’m in daily contact with several Ugandans, most of the them straight, but wanting a fairer deal for their gay compatriots.

    Of course—-Frank Mugisha, GayUganda, Val Kalende, “Reverend Cannon” Byamugisha, Sylvia Tamale, “Bishop” Ssenyojo, David Kato and a host of other gay sex advocates

    Two of my contacts are rather ‘well-connected’, shall we say …)

    Good for you. At least, I hope so !

  • anteros

    Maazi, actually… it’s not a cultural or geographical gradient… the latte-drinking liberals of New York and Maine are just as likely to learn something new about polygamy from the nsenene-munching liberals of Kampala and Mbarara – whichever way the winds of change will blow. Change happens… it’s life. Ask any female senior citizen in Uganda what those who were brave enough to wear lipstick, braids or nail polish had to endure decades ago. These days a huge fraction of Ugandan women get married after having kids, and it’s not the big deal it was 20 years ago. 10 years ago, most rural communities in Uganda did not respect or even know about the property rights of widows… a lot has changed, and a lot more will change… intolerance towards homosexuality is just one of many examples lined up for Uganda’s history books.

  • Richard Willmer

    In recent discussion I had with a group of young, educated Ugandans, three viewpoints have emerged:-

    1. that gays should be persecuted, even murdered, simply for being gay,

    2. that homosexuality should be ‘approved of’, but that persecution is wrong (this is probably the majority viewpoint), and

    3. that gays should be accepted as ‘normal’ members of society (this view seems to gained ground over the last twelve months).

    As Anteros has correctly pointed out, the advent of the Bahati Bill has promoted lively discussion. It is, I think, indeed noteworthy that the committee chairman says this: “What I can say is that there is special interest in that bill, both for and against and we are mindful of the interest in that bill. We are looking first of all in the context of the Parliament and the public interest, we are trying to see how we can handle it. We shall have public hearings, where all come and give their views and finally the committee report will take into account those views we are receiving from the public.” His statement is a reflection of a growing divergence of views on the issue.

    One of my ‘political contacts’ thinks that the Bill will effectively be ‘filibustered’ off the agenda, and that it will not be passed before the Eighth Parliament is dissolved. MPs’ appetites for a such a controversial piece of legislation is waning, said contact believes. Said contact might, or might not, be correct about that, of course – but the ‘uncertainty’ is interesting. It is worth remembering that the MPs will not be about to face (homophobic) voters – the elections will be history by then – and so will have a freer hand to act as they see fit.

  • Richard Willmer

    Whoops – point 2. should have read as follows:-

    “that homosexuality should NOT be ‘approved of’, but that persecution is wrong (this is probably the majority viewpoint) …”

  • Maazi NCO

    Anteros, keep reassuring yourself that what you see around you isn’t real. No !! they cannot possibly be against gayism, No !! they cannot like Bahati Bill, Yes !! they will support legalization of gay sex in the future !! Yes, I will be free to carry out my sexual perversion in public, organize gay parades— and oh yes, do same-sex marriage and gay adoption. Yeah, yeee peee !! Ole, ole, ole :D

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’, dear

    Have you been drinking?!

  • Maazi NCO

    In recent discussion I had with a group of young, educated Ugandans, three viewpoints have emerged:-

    1. that gays should be persecuted, even murdered, simply for being gay,

    2. that homosexuality should NOT be ‘approved of’, but that persecution is wrong (this is probably the majority viewpoint), and

    3. that gays should be accepted as ‘normal’ members of society (this view seems to gained ground over the last twelve months).

    I agree most Ugandans will concur with points (1) and (2), but point (3) is not representative of mainstream opinion. Point (2) is only correct if you are able to distinguish between “persecution” and “prosecution”. The people you are talking to do not represent majority opinion with respect to point (3). If you doubt it then come to Uganda and carry out a vox populi

    As Anteros has correctly pointed out, the advent of the Bahati Bill has promoted lively discussion.

    There is lively debate between groups A and B. Group A consists of Western governments, Western gays and their local proxies and Group B consists of most of the Ugandan people. The foreign-dominated Group A is mostly fighting against the bill and even submitted to parliament a funny protest note signed by nearly 500, 000 foreigners. The vast majority of the Ugandan people as represented in Group B have through phone-in programs, newspaper letters and rallies have called for the adoption of the Bahati Bill (with many arguing for a softening of the harsh punishments).

    One of my ‘political contacts’ thinks that the Bill will effectively be ‘filibustered’ off the agenda, and that it will not be passed before the Eighth Parliament is dissolved.

    Yes, I am aware of such a prediction. It has been predicted by all and sundry since February 2010 because of the perception that the President will always defer to Western pressure. All I can say is that filibuster doesn’t work all the time in the USA where it originated from. Without elaborating deeply, let me just say that I am confident that this will not happen in Uganda.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    Elaborate by all means! Why do you think there won’t be a ‘filibuster’?

  • anteros

    Maazi, I personally may or may not wish to engage myself in any of the things you mentioned… and again, that’s besides the point. I won’t defend myself as being straight or qualify myself as being gay… that’s got nothing to do with anything

    (certain people who suffer from an embarrassingly high level of nosiness might disagree).

    …and if no Ugandans ever engage themselves in any of the things you mentioned, I’ll be more than satisfied when all Ugandans’ human rights are protected by the law and they at least have the option to live honest and meaningful lives without fear of persecution.

  • Maazi NCO

    …and if no Ugandans ever engage themselves in any of the things you mentioned, I’ll be more than satisfied when all Ugandans’ human rights are protected by the law and they at least have the option to live honest and meaningful lives without fear of persecution.

    Very touching. I wish you good luck then !!

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    Oh – you’ve not yet answered my latest questions (with an additional aspect), so here they are again:-

    So you view people in a stable same-sex relationship as being the same as a ‘common thief’ or drug dealer? Please justify this comparison in terms that rational people can understand.

    What about those who threaten to murder their gay compatriots (or those whom they suspect might be gay)? What do you make of them?

    (By the way, the ‘contacts’ to whom I referred are NOT any of Frank, etc.. Quite different, actually … but no names, of course – at least not until you tell us YOUR real name, and even then …)

  • Wendy Leigh

    I find it most interesting that Maazi finds it well within his rights to make it his business what other people may or may not be doing in their bedrooms saying that it is a communal right or interest, but then in the very next breath and along those lines of rational, that the global world looking in on the activities of what the Ugandan government may or may not be doing to protect and advocate for her people in a global world is ‘none of our business.’ Were you bribed, taught or indoctrinated into hypocrisy Maazi?

  • Maazi NCO

    (By the way, the ‘contacts’ to whom I referred are NOT any of Frank, etc.. Quite different, actually … but no names, of course – at least not until you tell us YOUR real name, and even then …)

    I doubt I will be interested in knowing the names of your contacts. My name is irrelevant to this discourse and therefore shall be kept confidential “until the fullness of time”

    So you view people in a stable same-sex relationship as being the same as a ‘common thief’ or drug dealer? Please justify this comparison in terms that rational people can understand.

    Any rational human being will understand that every nation is guided by laws and anyone breaking the law is a criminal. A person who deals in drugs breaks the law. A person who engages in gay marriage or gay sex is breaking the law. It is as simple as that. In USA, polygamy is a crime called bigamy. In Uganda, it is not. In Germany and Austria, it is a serious crime to ridicule the Jewish holocaust . In UK and USA, it isn’t a crime at all. In Uganda, gayism is a sex crime and anyone who contravenes the Sexual Offences Act of 2000 is a sex offender. It is simple, logical and very rational.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    Laws can be unjust, or have undesirable ‘side-effects’. That’s why they change periodically.

    What is your PERSONAL view on this matter?

    And please answer my second question also, if you don’t mind.

    (As for your real name: when do you intend to ‘come out of the closet’, so to speak?)

  • Maazi NCO

    (As for your real name: when do you intend to ‘come out of the closet’, so to speak?)

    :D :D :D

  • Richard Willmer

    Glad that amused you!

    A ‘closet homophobe’ a new one on me!

  • Maazi NCO

    Maazi’

    Laws can be unjust, or have undesirable ‘side-effects’. That’s why they change periodically.

    Well, I am sure notorious holocaust deniers such as David Duke of USA and David Irving of UK will agree wholeheartedly with you.

    What is your PERSONAL view on this matter?

    Re-read all the posts I have ever contributed to this blog to find out my views if you have already forgotten them.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    There is a fatal flaw in your thinking; you forget just how much black people value their autonomy and individuality – two things that were disgracefully stolen from them by slavers and colonisers alike.

    Many Ugandans are waking up to the fact of the totalitarian nature of the Bahati Bill (and let’s face, Bahati – backed by US cash, and educated partly in the UK – is something of a coconut), and they DO NOT LIKE IT ONE LITTLE BIT. More and more I hear the ‘cris de coeur’ “why persecute our fellow Ugandans simply because they are gay”.

    Maybe you’re right: maybe a dramatically watered-down bill will get through. But that won’t the end of the matter, I can assure you!

  • Richard Willmer

    BTW, I doubt Irving (a silly fool, if ever there was one) and I would agree on how ‘Holocaust deniers’ should be treated under law. I favour a change in the law to ‘bring him to book’.

  • Maazi NCO

    Maazi’

    There is a fatal flaw in your thinking; you forget just how much black people value their autonomy and individuality – two things that were disgracefully stolen from them by slavers and colonisers alike.

    Wow !! Are you now the new Malcom X? A white Malcom X for that matter !!! LOL

    Many Ugandans are waking up to the fact of the totalitarian nature of the Bahati Bill (and let’s face, Bahati – backed by US cash, and educated partly in the UK – is something of a coconut), and they DO NOT LIKE IT ONE LITTLE BIT. More and more I hear the ‘cris de coeur’ “why persecute our fellow Ugandans simply because they are gay”.

    Sounds like the sort of propaganda that GayUganda would peddle. BTW, this “coconut talk” is probably the reason why black americans and afro-caribbeans in the UK are still occupying the lowest rungs in American and British societies respectively.

    Maybe you’re right: maybe a dramatically watered-down bill will get through. But that won’t the end of the matter, I can assure you!

    My advice would be to watch, wait and see what will happen in the next few months. You believe that Bahati Bill will be “filibustered” off the agenda ( a belief shared by many inside and outside Uganda). Anteros even goes further to say that gayism will be decriminalized. I say that the revised Bahati Bill shall become law of the land. I will love it if we can place some bets.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    You might be right about a dramatically revised ‘Bahatiish Bill’. But, as I said, that will not be end of the matter: too many young (and not-so-young) educated Ugandans won’t buy it.

  • Maazi NCO

    But, as I said, that will not be end of the matter: too many young (and not-so-young) educated Ugandans won’t buy it.

    On the contrary, many young educated Ugandans will welcome it enthusiastically, especially if it is well drafted to tackle emerging problems of gay militancy !! I should know because I am not too old myself and I live among my people—-the Ugandan people.

  • Richard Willmer

    Time will tell …

  • Maazi NCO

    Time will tell …

    :-) Oh yeah !!! :-)

  • Michael Bussee

    Uganda and Africa as a whole, by contrast, is a highly communal society where the personal business of any person is also business of his/her community and family.

    You seem to be arguing: “It’s our business what two consenting adults do with their own bodies in private because we make it our business.”

    But that answer doesn’t address WHY it should be the community or family’s business. Why care about it, when there are other, more pressing problems — like disease, poverty, illiteracy? How, specifically, is the community or family threatened by this private, consenting behavior? I am really struggling to understand the reasons behind this.

  • Richard Willmer

    Michael

    It isn’t – that’s why you can’t understand it! Throwing gay teachers, doctors, etc. into prison will make those other situations worse.

    Also, driving people ‘underground’ could add to other problems: it is those ‘in the closet’ who tend to abuse, etc. (though many ‘closet gays’ do not, of course).

    ‘Maazi’ is very determined to convince us that things will go as he thinks they should. And maybe they will (sort of, and for now), but that won’t be the last word, of course – it never is … in any country.

    ‘Maazi’ (O closeted one of the false name)

    WHY are you so confident that things will go the way you want to by next May? Spell it out for us, then we might even begin to believe you.

  • Maazi NCO

    You seem to be arguing: “It’s our business what two consenting adults do with their own bodies in private because we make it our business.”But that answer doesn’t address WHY it should be the community or family’s business

    .

    Well, you are not capable of understanding African culture and traditions. So never mind about that. I never thought a person raised in US libertarian value system will understand the cultural values of African people

    Why care about it, when there are other, more pressing problems — like disease, poverty, illiteracy? How, specifically, is the community or family threatened by this private, consenting behavior? I am really struggling to understand the reasons behind this.

    The Ugandan people believe that all problems can be tackled simultaneously from corruption to illiteracy to poverty to gayism. The idea that one problem should be left to fester while others are tackled is really nonsense, but convenient propaganda for Western gay lobbyists.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    And your specific (i.e. political) reasons for your confidence are … ?

  • Maazi NCO

    ‘Maazi’ (O closeted one of the false name)

    WHY are you so confident that things will go the way you want to by next May? Spell it out for us, then we might even begin to believe you.

    Nice try, but I will pass. You can believe whatever you want until sometime before May 2011 :-)

  • Maazi NCO

    ‘Maazi’

    And your specific (i.e. political) reasons for your confidence are … ?

    No comment. Just watch the Ugandan politics in action next year. Okay?

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    We’d love you to comment, dear! But there are other places I can go for ‘comment’ …

  • Maazi NCO

    Throwing gay teachers, doctors, etc. into prison will make those other situations worse…

    I doubt the stuff mentioned above will ever happen in Uganda after the passing of the revised Bahati Bill.

    ‘Maazi’

    We’d love you to comment, dear! But there are other places I can go for ‘comment’ …

    Okay then. It is probably time for you to reach out to UK Foreign Office and your “well-connected contacts” in Uganda.

  • Richard Willmer

    One last point, then it’s bedtime:-

    In my experience, Ugandans are pretty smart when it comes to ‘getting round’ silly laws, so even if a dramatically watered-down Bahatiish Bill does pass …

  • anteros

    actually, it’s a fairly common sentiment that bahati’s bill is a cheap distraction to take the focus away from many failures, most notably corruption. much like the publicized national day of prayer attended by many corrupt officials to pray away corruption etc… many of those officials later engaged themselves in a public orgy of rigging within their own party’s primaries… fewer people are willing to join them in their hissing, huffing and puffing over irrelevant distractions such as bahati’s bill.

  • Maazi NCO

    In my experience, Ugandans are pretty smart when it comes to ‘getting round’ silly laws, so even if a dramatically watered-down Bahatiish Bill does pass …

    How can you have experience of a place you have never lived in? This is quite funny. Its like me saying that I am confident that Outer Mongolians will reject a law increasing Chinese investment in their nation.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    I shall say no more – for now. Will you be having ‘sweet dreams’ about mass arrests? If so, don’t dribble too much in your excitement.

    Anteros

    I’ve heard much the same (from Ugandans) – often.

  • Maazi NCO

    actually, it’s a fairly common sentiment that bahati’s bill is a cheap distraction to take the focus away from many failures, most notably corruption. much like the publicized national day of prayer attended by many corrupt officials to pray away corruption etc… many of those officials later engaged themselves in a public orgy of rigging within their own party’s primaries… fewer people are willing to join them in their hissing, huffing and puffing over irrelevant distractions such as bahati’s bill.

    I disagree on the matter of the Bahati Bill, but do agree that there is a lot of hypocrisy and corruption going on in Uganda, which is a surprise why Western nations are threatening to cut their useless donor aid over gay sex, but not over corruption. In any case, tackling gay militancy is not a distraction at all. It should be tackled together with all other problems. This is where most Ugandan stand on this matter. We are working hard and confident that this emerging threat to African culture will be beaten back before the end of the 8th parliament.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    And just who are ‘we’? The Ugandan people (a committee of 33.8 million)? A little group of Bahatiites with false names? Buturo’s gang? Who?

    Thanks for the confirmation of the ‘intended time frame’. I’ve been aware of this for some time, of course.

  • anteros

    donor’s give aid on many conditions, mainly accountability which is one way of keeping corruption in check. and unlike bahati’s attack on human rights, both donors and ugandans are in agreement over corruption… it’s an ongoing battle like poverty eradication, with both sides supposedly working together. it’s obvious why the bill would trigger ‘threats’ – or more accurately, why the bill would justify the reconsidering of support in the form of donor countries’ taxpayers’ money to a country that directly or indirectly uses that support to implement discriminatory laws that those same taxpayers would never entertain in their own country… bahati’s bill is a one-sided, deliberate, direct and bold diversion from the agreed principles of cooperation… we’re talking about the unilateral trashing of internationally recognised and respected human rights like privacy and freedom of association/speech… at least 8 violations of the Ugandan constitution in one sudden bill. what type of reaction from donors did you expect? that reaction was even publicly anticipated and invited by Uganda’s minister of ethics and integrity months before the bill was introduced.

  • Richard Willmer

    Indeed: UG does what ‘Maazi’ says it wants to do; donors respond as they wish to. Very simple really.

    My prediction is that, if a watered-down Bahitler Bill were to be enacted, Germany, Sweden, Belgium and maybe Canada would reduce or cancel aid programmes. Maybe also the WHO. I don’t know, but suspect that the UK and the US would respond in a more ‘tokenistic’ manner.

    Germany recently signed an aid deal with UG, with the explicit condition that no further discriminatory legislation be enacted. Sweden’s position is well-known. In Belgium, human rights activist are strong and well-organised.

  • anteros

    i don’t think that donors opting to reduce or cancel their aid on account of the bill is an attempt to punish or coerce or neo-colonialize or any such nonsense. i wouldn’t be willing to shake hands with a nose-picking, ball-scratching obnoxious hypocrite… why should anybody else be expected to do something similar?

  • Richard Willmer

    No – it would simply be a ‘response’.

    M7 has been forewarned of such a possible response so that he, and others, can make a ‘fully informed choice’.

  • Richard Willmer

    Here’s a parallel scenario:-

    Opinion polls suggest that a majority of Britons want capital punishment to be reintroduced for certain particularly heinous crimes. British MPs will not do this for a variety of reasons, one of these being that there would be sanctions imposed by the EU. Same thing really.

    (I’m very happy with this, as I oppose capital punishment as a matter of principle.)

  • http://gaychristian.net Sidney

    I don’t understand how Uganda’s Parliament can actually believe all Christian sects endorse this point of view of theres. I’m a gay person who’s a member to, what could be conceived as, the largest gay Christian alliance in the world. We literally span all nations and there are affirming Churches throughout the entire world. I would say Ugandan Parliament is taking a extremely narrow and, in my personal belief, uninformed view on homosexuality.

    Has no one questioned these witnesses who brought homosexuality legislation to Parliament on why they cant find any biblical scholars to back up their assertion? I also wonder why they took testimony from books of men who in their own country when pertaining to the psychology of homosexuality. Have lost their license to practice psychology in America. I know they sited Cohen but he has no license to practice medicine in America. These Ministers and Pastors they brought before committee are register hate offenders in America. No different than the Klu Klux Klan, or the Neo Nazi’s in our society.

    I am so sorry for the crime that has been pushed on Uganda from our hate groups such as The Family. My heart truly goes out to Uganda for the fact that they have been duped into this anti homosexual bill. I just pray when this is all finished and the GLBTQ start being imprisoned or killed. That we in America can start hearings to have those from America responsible for the assistance of this despicable bill. Tried for Genocide and have them put in prison or put to death along with all the GLBTQ Ugandans who are going to suffer this fate. I am truly sorry for what America has done to Uganda. This brings shame to all of America.

  • Richard Willmer

    Sidney

    As I’m sure we would agree, there is no biblical basis whatsoever for ‘hating LGBT persons’; furthermore, careful study of the (small number of) passages in the Bible that purport to deal with ‘homosexuality’ reveals no sound basis for the condemnation of loving same-sex relationships. As a ‘mainstream’ Christian (who is not in a sexual relationship of any kind, as it happens – but this is strictly, ‘by the by’, as it has nothing to do with the issues of principle here), I think that the Church generally is ‘waking up’ to this fact. Some groups (esp. in the US and in Africa, it would seem) within Christianity don’t like this at all … but the truth will prevail in time. It always does … eventually.

    The controversy over the Bahati Bill has helped to focus people’s minds – both here and in Uganda. This is why many Ugandans are abandoning their prejudices (support for the ‘anti-gay’ line has dropped by about 15% over the last three years in UG, according to the Per Forum – something that our fiend ‘Maazi’ is finding hard to come to terms with).

  • Richard Willmer

    FYI: 15% of the adult population of UG equates to around three million people.

  • Wendy Leigh

    BREAKING!!! NEW YORK – The United Nations General Assembly just voted on a crucial resolution on extrajudicial executions and other unlawful killings that, for the first time, includes explicit language protecting LGBT people.

    This resolution urges member states to thoroughly and promptly investigate all killings committed for any discriminatory reason, even on the basis of sexual orientation.

    The vote was 93-55 with 27 abstentions.

    The opposition mostly came from Arab and African nations where human rights are limited.

    Last month, a General Assembly resolution opposed the unjustified killing of minority groups, including the LGBT community. It drew widespread criticism, and the United States lead the effort to amend the resolution.

  • Michael Bussee

    Pastor and advocate (Ssempa) detained for implicating Kayanja in sodomy case

    Posted Thursday, December 23 2010 at 00:00

    City advocate Henry Ddungu and pastor Moses Solomon Male were yesterday detained over alleged conspiracy to injure the reputation of Pastor Robert Kayanja of Rubaga Miracle Centre Cathedral, Kampala.

    Six others were also charged. They are pastors Bob Robert Kayiira, Michael Kyazze and Martin Sempa, advocate David Kaggwa, Ms Deborah Kyomuhendo and Mr David Mukalazi.

    Pastor Male and Mr Ddungu, who were slated to appear before Buganda Road Magistrate Court for plea, were taken back to police custody but were later released on police bond.

    “We have been released but asked to go back to the Special Investigations unit (today),” said Pator Male. Pastors Kayiira and Kyazze of Omega Healing Ministries are facing charges of alleged criminal trespass and conspiracy to commit a misdemeanour before Mwanga II Magistrates Court.

    Meanwhile, Pastor Sempa is accused of hiring Robson Matovu to blackmail Pastor Kayanja. Court heard that Pastor Male reportedly gave Mr Matovu a signed and stamped affidavit implicating Pastor Kayanja while Samson Mukisa was reportedly promised necessities on condition that he would speak publicly on how Pastor Kayanja had sodomised him.

    A police report indicates that complaints of sodomy against Pastor Kayanja did not reveal any evidence the offences. “In retracting their statements, the complainants said they had been mobilised to make false accusations against Pastor Kayanja in order to tarnish his name,” reads a report.

    http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/1077294/-/cjw8roz/-/index.html

  • Jame

    Police fail to interrogate pastors over sodomy

    PASTORS Solomon Male and Martin Sempa, accused of conspiracy to injure the name of their colleague, Robert Kayanja, yesterday reported to the Police for interrogation, but were turned away.

    The pastors, who arrived at the Police Special Investigations Unit in Naguru, a Kampala suburb, with their lawyers, were told to return only when summoned.

    By yesterday afternoon, Buganda Road Court resident state attorney Baxter Bakibinga said he had not yet sanctioned the pastors’ files for prosecution.

    Bakibinga said he had sent Male’s file back to the Directorate of Public Prosecution (DPP) for amendment of the charge sheet before he can sanction it.

    But he did not elaborate whether the amendment involved adding more charges or dropping some.

    “After the DPP has amended the charge sheet, Male will be charged. If he does not appear on today, it will then be tomorrow,” Bakibinga told New Vision yesterday.

    The pastors told journalists in separate interviews that their arrest close to Christmas was suspect.

    Sempa said when he arrived at the investigations unit, the officers took his finger prints without explaining why.

    “The head of the unit, Grace Akullo, told my lawyers that they would notify them when I am needed. I am not on the run. I am sure we shall get justice if the due process of the law is followed,” Sempa said.

    According to a recent letter from the principal state attorney, Margaret Nakigudde, Male, Sempa, Bob Kayira, Michael Kyazze, their lawyers; Henry Ddungu and David Kaggwa, together with David Mukalazi and Deborah Kyomuhendo face charges of conspiring to injure Kayanja’s reputation.

    The two lawyers were included for allegedly commissioning false affidavits.

    http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/13/741996

  • Richard Willmer

    Thanks for the update, Jame.

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