Breaking: Ugandan Parliament stalled on technicality, fate of anti-gay bill uncertain; Parliament adjourned sine die

Read my concise rendering of today’s events and those leading up to today at Huffington Post.

For details, read on…

Despite being called to business today by Speaker Edward Ssekandi, Uganda’s parliamentary session has been stalled today and may adjourn (it did adjourn, see update below) without taking any action on pending legislation, including the Anti-Homosexuality Bill. According to parliamentary spokeswoman, Helen Kawesa, Parliament is stalled on a “technicality.” She said there is no Cabinet in place because it was dissolved in preparation for the end of the 8th Parliament in advance of yesterday’s Presidential inauguration. It is unclear who raised the issue of the necessity for Cabinet to be place for business to be conducted. However the effect is that the session is winding up, with members discussing how to proceed before the end of the 8th Parliament on 18th.

According to this report, Speaker Ssekandi ordered Ministers on Monday to “vacate their seats” yesterday, the same day as the inauguration of President Museveni. However, at that time, the Speaker seemed to indicate that business could be conducted.

He said the directive to vacate the front bench seats which are only a reserve for government ministers and shadow ministers (opposition) does not mean affected members should stop attending and transacting parliament work.

He said the Eighth parliament runs till May 15, a day before the members of the Ninth parliament’s swearing-in-ceremony commences. The ruling NRM ministers and shadow ministers known occupy front bench seats in the parliament chambers while transacting parliament business.

The order paper on the Parliament website shows no bills on the agenda which indicates that the matter of the missing Cabinet must have come up prior to convening the session. The fate of the AHB is still not clear and may not be resolved until the last day of Parliament. Ms. Kawesa said the MPs were discussing a motion to continue all business until the next Parliament perhaps next week, when a new Cabinet is in place.

UPDATE: Apparently, there will be no more business but it is unclear whether a motion to continue was entertained. This announcement just appeared on the Parliament website:

Emotional farewells as Eighth Parliament closes

The term of office for Members of Parliament elected to the Eighth Parliament of Uganda has come to an end. Speaker of Parliament Rt.Hon.Edward Kiwanuka Ssekandi announced to MPs, in an emmotional (sic) sitting , the end of the term of the Eighth parliament urging MPs to appreciate and embrace the multiparty political system.

“This Parliament was different from all parliaments before it. But my assessment is that people still long for the movement political system other than the multiparty system. The two systems are different and what you must know is that under multiparty system, Mps on the government side came with one manifesto that the executive is trying to implement,” he told MPs.

Speaker Ssekandi announced that the official proclamation for the end of the Eighth Parliament had already been signed and would be gazetted on May 18, the day the ninth Parliament would commence.

If he was quoted properly by the Uganda Razor, he said earlier in the week that the Eighth Parliament went to the 15th and business could be conducted without a Cabinet. Today, at a session that he called, he said business could not be conducted and announced that the proclamation ending the Parliament had been signed.

UPDATE: I have confirmed with Helen Kawesa that Parliament was adjourned sine die, meaning that the Speaker could call the members back to session if needed. In this way, there is always a legislative body, even when not in session. The proclamation to close the Parliament is signed but will only go into effect on the 18th.

When I asked spokeswoman Kawesa whether or not the AHB could come up next Parliament without the continuing motion, she said she knew of no means, but would not rule it out. I also asked her why the Speaker called the members back to session knowing that there was no Cabinet. Kawesa said she did not know.

As is stands, with no further action, Bahati will have to ask Parliament permission to move AHB-II as a private member’s bill. If they give him that permission then he can introduce the same bill or a modified one and the process will begin again. Today, however, is a good day for freedom of conscience.

The AP has a report on the matter…

Speaker of Parliament Edward Ssekandi Kiwanuk said there is no time to take up the bill this session, which ends Wednesday, leaving the bill’s future uncertain. Kiwanuk adjourned the parliament Friday and set no date for the body to return.

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  • Richard Willmer

    I saw that Order Paper a couple of hours ago and wondered what was going on.

    I looks like shenanigans all round.

  • Richard Willmer

    But the fact that there is ‘shenanigans’ suggests that the pressure may be leading MPs to ‘see sense’.

    Now I think I understand why this whole business has been kept out of the UG press.

  • http://homonytt.com Bjørn Smestad

    This piece of news on the parliament website is rather interesting:

    http://www.parliament.go.ug/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=833&Itemid=65

  • http://www.debbiethurman.com Debbie Thurman

    Of course I understand the gravitas of the Uganda situation, Richard. Always have. I have been monitoring the news here and at BTB closely. While I had an active blog, I covered the issue myself, and put out calls for prayer. Even set up a satellite Facebook page at Warren’s request. But, you see, there are some here who can only see me through ones lens, and it is hate-filled.

    It is unfortunate that attempts to discuss serious matters here (and there is other weighty news in the world, too) are always met sooner or later with derailing personal or petty attacks. The bully pulpit here only serves one end. And that will never change. Therefore, I will not be commenting at this blog any longer. Period.

    My prayers are with Uganda today. I also pray for my own country and hope people here will be as willing to raise their voices over the injustice of human rights and religious freedoms violations in other countries as they have been for Ugandans.

  • Richard Willmer

    Debbie :

    I did not, for a moment, think that you didn’t understand the seriousness of what is happening. I just wanted ‘radio noise’ to cease while updates on this issue were coming in. Thanks. I too am ‘watching and praying’ for sanity to prevail in Kampala. After all, what happens there will impact on other countries – which is why it deserves such rapt attention just now.

  • Richard Willmer
  • Richard Willmer
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  • Richard Willmer

    And all of us here agree on the Bahati Bill: viz it shouldn’t exist!

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  • Richard Willmer

    (I never wanted Debbie not to post, by the way; I was just wanting to avoid the ‘recent comments’ block being filled with ‘Prop 8′ stuff because things were coming in on Bahati on an almost hourly basis.)

    Incidently, even ‘Maazi NCO’ might have been shocked by the Committee report … or else he has been lying about the ‘watering down’ of the Bill. He’s actually been quite useful in a way: hidden amongst all the verbiage were some useful ‘tip offs’.

  • Teresa

    And all of us here agree on the Bahati Bill: viz it shouldn’t exist!

    Yes, we do agree, Richard. Thank you for keeping your eyes on the ball for all of us.

    I honestly hope that you do not stop posting here. Your opinions and insight are welcome, even if we don’t always agree.

    Thank you, Jayhuck, for expressing this sentiment concerning Debbie’s decision to no longer participate on this blog. Debbie, I join my sentiments with Jayhuck’s.

  • David Blakeslee

    Teresa,

    do you mean Richard, rather than Jayhuck?

    Debbie,

    Your decision may be the goal that some wish for…if you track the participation of folks at this blog that this is the effect for several others who came here to share information and ideas.

    Others,

    Members of the GBLT community constitute an incredibly small minority of the population that is easily marginalized and when the Christian Political machine gets involved it is both the Majority and the Hypocrite (No law in Uganda threatening the death penalty for adult infidelity, or promiscuity).

    It is to our shame that this movement in Uganda was facilitated by a well respected Christian leader in Uganda, that it was fostered by Fringe Religious elements from the US.

    Joyfully, it has exposed deeply the thread of willful ignorance and distortion that is one of the engines of American Political Christianity.

    Sadly, as people revel in their ability to polarize, few are persuaded. Instead, they run back to the authors of their polarization for more ammunition. This only encourages the polarizers. That is happening here…and it grieves me.

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  • David Blakeslee

    Warren,

    Did you close the Prop 8 thread? If so that seems odd. Can’t find window to post there.

    Teresa,

    I wanted to answer your reply over there and will wait.

  • http://wthrockmorton.com Warren

    All – I stopped discussion on the Prop 8 thread because, in my view, it was distracting from the urgency of the news coming from Uganda. I am going to open it back up now but I do ask that folks stay civil, cease analyzing the motives of other commenters, and if you feel irritated by something, just step away from the keyboard.

    Since that one is opening back up, please no more comments on it here.

    This is a good end to a strange and difficult week. Next week will bring new issues.

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  • anteros

    what a relief!! how do i even begin thanking each person who… *overwhelmed*

  • jwalt101, ZA

    this is an empty victory with uncertainty clouding the air in africa… what next? i live in africa and can confirm that this is not a good sign of the times, you have to fight to the teeth to uphold your civil rights at all times or be trampled on!

  • Richard Willmer

    Well done, Warren. (I’ve sure we’ve not won the war, but we have won a battle; and yes, Mr. Blakesee, unpalatable though it is, speaking in terms of ‘wars’ and ‘battles’ is necessary and I make no apology for it – people like Bahati will stop at nothing to get their way; they have to be stopped.)

  • Richard Willmer

    And we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that the overall situation in UG remains tense and complex, and that the human rights of many people (gay and straight) are being compromised.

  • anteros

    “Nonetheless, he knew that

    the tale he had to tell could

    not be one of a final victory.

    It could only be the record of

    what had had to be done,

    and what assuredly would

    have to be done again in the

    never-ending fight against

    terror and its relentless

    onslaughts, despite their

    personal afflictions, by all

    who, while unable to be

    saints but refusing to bow

    down to pestilences, strive

    their utmost to be healers. ”

    — Albert Camus

  • David Blakeslee

    Richard,

    Mr. Blakesee, unpalatable though it is, speaking in terms of ‘wars’ and ‘battles’ is necessary and I make no apology for it

    I don’t know why this is addressed to me.

    Warren,

    There seems to be a common person at the posting repeatedly at the threads you decided to end…

  • paul canning

    I hope after the dust somewhat settles that they’ll be a post mortem on the past week.

    Whilst Warren is a f*cking star it is outrageous that we have had to rely as much as we have done on him. I am unimpressed by Avaaz et al’s ‘we did it! victory!’ and I’d like to know how things got to this point and just why the information G_A_P was so awesome this past week.

    IMO The ‘international LGBT community’ should have had someone on the ground in Kampala on Monday. It’s not like groups don’t exist with resources to do that.

  • Richard Willmer

    David : I was under the impression that such ‘harsh’ terms were not to your taste. Neither are they to mine, if I’m honest, but sometimes … On another point you made earlier: infidelity (the major HIV risk factor in UG) was actually recently decriminalised in UG; as for promiscuity … well, modesty forbids saying any more about that (except that, in and of itself, it is not a criminal offence in UG)!

    On the Bill, the BBC is now reporting that is has been ‘shelved’. This is perhaps a view that should be regarded as being at the ‘optimistic’ end of the spectrum.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13392723

    ‘Celebrations of victory’ are certainly premature, but a little ‘sign of relief’ may be in order, especially as it gives the international community time to ‘get its ducks in a row’.

  • Maazi NCO

    Bahati will have to ask Parliament permission to move AHB-II as a private member’s bill.

    The extremities of the original Bahati Bill made it irredeemably “radioactive” for our people occupying the executive branch of the government, who have to engage in the thankless and dirty work of buttering up to our foreign blackmailer-friends. I think David Bahati has achieved the debate he wanted so I strongly doubt there would be any bill like the original 2009 Anti-Homosexuality Bill ever presented before parliament again.

    I am sure the domestic agents of the foreign gay lobbies will take a break from provoking the Ugandan masses for a couple of months (or perhaps several months) to celebrate the end of what they may want to call “parliamentary sabre-rattling”.

    We are happy that the executive branch understands that certain NGO activities will eventually throw up serious social stability issues if not contained and limited. For that reason, an alternative approach fully coordinated with the executive branch will be followed up in the new parliament at a time of our choosing. So Warren you have your work cut out for you from today to year 2016. Happy reporting !!!

  • Maazi NCO

    Incidently, even ‘Maazi NCO’ might have been shocked by the Committee report

    I am never shocked by anything. I am Ugandan and therefore immune to being shocked by any “orchestral maneouvres in the dark”. My main problem is that any bill that should become law must be bullet-proof from being annulled by our local courts on constitutional grounds. An alternative approach to containing this “emerging problem” will have to be tried using a ready-made template prepared by XXXXXXX which has been dormant for years.

  • http://wthrockmorton.com Warren

    Maazi – You sound like an incoming MP. Even privately to me, I wish you would identify yourself.

    At any rate, you are correct about the courts. I think the AHB would have been challenged immediately on several grounds.

    And what is XXXXXXX?

  • Maazi NCO

    I wish you would identify yourself.

    Please allow me to politely turn down your wish. I do not want to come under anybody’s radar………… until our work is done or at the very least, an important milestone is reached.

    And what is XXXXXXX?

    I leave that for you to find out. If you can. I hope you have been entertained by our peculiar style of politics. Nothing Is Ever What It Seems

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’ says there have been “orchestral maneouvres in the dark”. Now tell us something we don’t know!

    I have know for some time that, in UG politics, things are often not as they seem.

    Thanks for the other commentary. It does suggest that appropriate international pressure is useful.

  • Maazi NCO

    ‘Maazi’ says there have been “orchestral maneouvres in the dark”. Now tell us something we don’t know!

    What would be fun in telling you what you don’t know already? The thrill is in uncovering these things yourself !

    I have know for some time that, in UG politics, things are often not as they seem.

    Such as the fact that despite war raging between government and opposition parties on the streets, MPs across party lines banded together for a parliamentary initiative which is now DEAD in its original 2009 form, but shall certainly resurrect and evolve completely in accordance with alternative plans.

    Thanks for the other commentary.

    The pleasure is mine. I hope that in the future, we will continue to share as much information as possible without jeopardizing “projects in the works”.

    It does suggest that appropriate international pressure is useful.

    It suggests that the razmattazz, fanfare and excessive politicization surrounding what should really be a routine law enforcement matter —-with moderate provisions—-was really bad for business. Everybody will learn from this including all the actors and actresses across party lines who will be succeeding themselves as MPs in the 9th parliament.

  • Richard Willmer

    continuing from above …

    After all, if the international community had turned a ‘blind eye’, the Bill might well have got through much as it is in late 2009.

    @ ‘Maazi’:

    To which ‘template’ do you refer? There have been a number of possible ‘candidates’ in the past few years I believe …

    Anyway, I must thank you for all your comments. You and, to a lesser extent, Josepha Jabo (I’m assuming you are not Josepha) have been useful in your ways.

  • Richard Willmer

    On the ‘banding together’: I do know that Bahitler and Doodah come from different parties.

  • Maazi NCO

    On the ‘banding together’: I do know that…..

    Bahati (NRM) and Ogwal (UPC) were prime movers, but there were others across party lines that seriously backed this initiative….

  • Richard Willmer

    Not sure the main opposition party was so keen on the projected slaughter, ‘Maazi’.

    By all means, correct me if I’m wrong. Feel free to give names …

  • Maazi NCO

    I’m assuming you are not Josepha

    And I am assuming that you are not HRH Prince Philip the Duke of Edinburgh

  • Maazi NCO

    Or better still—- Princess Anne !

  • Richard Willmer

    I am neither, ‘Maazi’ – not even at the weekends.

  • Richard Willmer

    Josepha is rather more extreme than you are, from what I can discern – hence my assumption. (However, fool that I am, I had always assumed you were a man – whereas, of course, you’ve never actually revealed your sex.)

  • Maazi NCO

    Not sure the main opposition party was so keen on the projected slaughter, ‘Maazi’.

    No MP was interested in slaughter. But all hands were on deck to make sure that the general aspirations of Ugandan people with regards to gayism was upheld. Symbolically, this was achieved by getting the bill out of commitee stage. But in practical terms the initiative suffered a time-out…..

    By all means, correct me if I’m wrong. Feel free to give names …

    No names will be released. In any case, all hands were on deck…

  • Maazi NCO

    However, fool that I am, I had always assumed you were a man – whereas, of course, you’ve never actually revealed your sex.

    If you read a quarter of the previous comments I have made on this blog over the past two years, you will discover that I have mentioned my gender several times.

    Josepha is rather more extreme than you are

    Most Ugandans cannot stand gayism even for a second. Perhaps, my international travels have tempered me somewhat. Nevertheless, I believe that gay advocacy has no place in Uganda and the sooner these domestic agents of the euro-american gay lobbies slink back to their dark alleys, the better for everyone. I suspect that they would resist, hence the alternative plans in the next parliament.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘All hands were on deck’? I doubt it.

    ‘Most Ugandans cannot stand gayism’? Well – you know, ‘Maazi’, I suspect that many are just thinking what they are told to think, based on false information, and/or out of fear.

    The whole Bahati Bill thing, and especially the events of the last week, were a complete debacle, and gave the end of the Eighth Parliament a farcical air … which is surely one reason why the UG press were told to keep silent about it. Remember how the events of the last week began: it was Bahitler and Doodah pretending to be concerned about the attack on Besigye (that was reported in the Monitor, though not in the New Vision, of course). Come on, ‘Maazi’, you can’t fool us that easily!

  • Richard Willmer

    One more thing: you mean ‘sex’, not ‘gender’, I assume. (Not that it matters whether you male or female, of course.)

  • Maazi NCO

    ‘All hands were on deck’? I doubt it.

    You can doubt or un-doubt anything you like. It doesn’t change the reality of the events that took place on the grounds of our parliament.

    The whole Bahati Bill thing, and especially the events of the last week, were a complete debacle, and gave the end of the Eighth Parliament a farcical air….blah, blah, blah….

    Your analysis of the situation on ground is understandably superficial and grossly inaccurate. It is understandable because your punditry is based on scraps of online news reports and some information that Mr. Throckmorton scraped together from telephone calls and emails. You have no idea what really took place—-the full picture and its scale.

  • Maazi NCO

    One more thing: you mean ‘sex’, not ‘gender’, I assume. (Not that it matters whether you male or female, of course.)

    Yes I meant “gender”. I use the term “gender” in its original and traditional context. Like most Africans, I do not recognize all the new innovations which you westerners have formulated to obviate the fact that gender is a binary term—male or female. Nothing more and nothing less.

  • Richard Willmer

    If you say so, ‘Maazi’! (Obviously, I don’t underestimate the threats to human rights from parts of the UG body-politic … and that is something I have in common with those who have been protesting on the streets of your capital and elsewhere. But the recent ‘Bahati Follies’ appeared to be a show – and a veritable soap opera at that – for international, not domestic, consumption, and this raises interesting questions.)

    Sorry to hear about the deaths in Kampala on Thursday, by the way.

  • Maazi NCO

    Sorry to hear about the deaths in Kampala on Thursday, by the way.

    Condolences accepted.

  • http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com Timothy Kincaid

    But, you see, there are some here who can only see me through ones lens, and it is hate-filled.

    It is unfortunate that attempts to discuss serious matters here (and there is other weighty news in the world, too) are always met sooner or later with derailing personal or petty attacks. The bully pulpit here only serves one end. And that will never change. Therefore, I will not be commenting at this blog any longer. Period.

    Though I’m obtuse, obstinate, snarky, have a chip on my shoulder, and am just not qualified to say certain things, I wish you well in life. May much peace and happiness follow you in whatever you do.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ Paul

    I too am unimpressed by ‘cries of victory’ (from anyone), and – yes – there does need to be a careful appraisal (principally by the relevant persons among our political representatives and their officials) of what has gone on this past week. As ‘Maazi NCO’ says, there is still a desire to increase the level of abuse to which LGBT Ugandans are subjected, though I doubt very much (and not without reasons to do so) that this desire is unanimously shared by all Ugandan politicians, still less by all Ugandans.

    (My own view is that the Bill was ‘set up’ again in order to be ‘knocked down’, so as to ‘curry favour’ with donor countries already concerned about other matters, and the Parliament and the Executive were complicit in this exercise. That said, the international community was right to take the threats seriously. Although he would not express it quite as I have done, I suspect that ‘Maazi’ would agree with me on this point.)

  • Richard Willmer

    The above comment notwithstanding, there is (and has been for years) an on-going ‘real and present danger’ to LGBT Ugandans, and Bahati and his cronies (and others) are most assuredly ‘true believers’ when it comes to their totalitarian anti-gay ideology.

  • Lynn David

    Wow! Good news. Thank you, Warren. I’ve been rather slow on the uptake these days.

    But you are now shilling for the HuffPo? Any more of that and you might start losing us centrists!

  • paul canning

    I’ve expanded on the above comment here http://madikazemi.blogspot.com/2011/05/uganda-kill-gays-bill-stalled-or.html

    One other thing. I reported this week that just one LGBT organisation in Kenya is getting 2-3 inquiries A DAY from LGBT Ugandans wanting or needing to get out. I hope with others to be able to shine more of a light on that situation.

  • Richard Willmer

    This Guardian article is interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/may/14/outlawing-gayness-like-straining-out-gnat-and-swallowing-camel

    @ Paul : It isn’t just LGBT Ugandans, it’s also people who have been ‘accused’ of being gay, even though they are not. One is aware of cases of such people. One thing that people like ‘Maazi NCO’ need to understand is that stoking up homophobia will lead to the abuse of straight, as well as gay, people. (But there does seem to be something of a ‘machete-waving’ element to ‘Maazi’s’ dialectic, so perhaps that wouldn’t bother him, as long as gays get bashed as well?)

  • Richard Willmer

    Back to the recent parliametary pantomime …

    Two questions:-

    1. Why was the Committee report apparently leaked (I thought it was embargoed until the debate, so one is inclined assume that Tashobya or one of his colleagues let it ‘slip out’)?

    2. Why was the death penalty still there (and it assuredly was … although the wording of Clause 3, Subclause 2 was changed)? (Obviously, if the death penalty provision existed for rape and aggravated defilement that would have been a different, but Clause 3 also covered consensual acts.)

    As Paul says, there really does need to a careful analysis of what went on.

  • Richard Willmer

    APOLOGIES FOR THE REPEAT POST:

    Back to the recent parliamentary pantomime …

    Two questions:-

    1. Why was the Committee report apparently leaked (I thought it was embargoed until the debate, so one is inclined to assume that Tashobya or one of his colleagues let it ‘slip out’)?

    2. Why was the death penalty still there (and it assuredly was … although the wording of Clause 3, Subclause 2 was changed)? (Obviously, if the death penalty provision existed specifically for rape and aggravated defilement that would have been a different matter, but Clause 3 also covered consensual acts.)

    As Paul says, there really does need to a careful analysis of what went on, so that we can have a better idea of what could happen next.

  • Richard Willmer

    At last, something (though not much) in the UG press: http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/1162702/-/c1jetuz/-/

    There’s an error, of course: the article says that the death penalty was removed. It wasn’t, of course – rather it was just the wording of Clause 3(2) that was changed.

  • Richard Willmer

    And on a lighter note … maybe a few more gay MPs would be a good idea!

    http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/8/13/754672

  • Richard Willmer
  • anteros

    Richard, it’s not the first time a parliamentary report has been leaked. I’ve seen at least two others leaked… “cleaners” can easily smuggle material “found around the photocopier”.

  • Richard Willmer

    I didn’t know that Tashobya was a cleaner at the UG Parliament!!! (Joke – sort of!)

  • anteros

    @Richard: oops! i didnt know who leaked the report!

  • Richard Willmer

    Neither do I, if I’m honest! But the whole thing is decidedly odd …

  • WakefulUgandan

    Maazi, I have heard of this Morton gentleman. I have heard of how he “ran down” Martin Ssempa in the States & made sure all his friends dissociated themselves from him (talk about sensitivity, ;-)

    It was a no-holds-barred, take-no-prisoner type of thing! The kind of blackmail that got the APA to remove homosexuality from the DSM on a political vote.

    You see, even among these Wazungu most people are not for this homosexual thing…

    Maazi I applaud you for representing us well— those are our true Ugandan sentiments.

    And for these fellows who dunno how “sharp” some Ugandans can be, they will learn the hard way! Those people you think are gay most of them are “financial fugitives” looking for easy money… they talk your money push the talk & then “eat” most of it!

    And all those lies that are told. Can you imagine it has been trumpeted on the hill-tops that Kato died thanks to a hate crime? Duh, the whole world here knows he used to “pay prisoners out of jail” to have gay sex with them in return… And this one he thought he would just use and dump as always turned on him!

    We shall always regard this thing a despicable perversion & this attempt to create a monolithic culture rooted in the exaltation of an empty dogma of self-gratification will not be the front for the new neo-colonialist agenda.

    If you want to have your men not tell a difference between the functions of anatomy by design that’s up to you but here in Uganda it is a sign of issues “up-stairs” and if willfully engaged in must be punishable especially in cases where these shameless predators have ravaged helpless minors like that case in Entebbe where a barber abused a boy of 12 years. Of course, that comes with the territory. Pederasty is not too far and we have Kinsey’s “lab” results to show for it…

    In Uganda we have chosen to maintain that the digestive system and the reproductive system are demonstrable realities & only sheer delusion would go about apologizing for the usage of the digestive system to gratify the near psychotic maladies of a confused mental state.

    Maazi Aye! Oliwakabi keep up the good work letting these good fellows know we are taking none of that into our country and Africa at large!

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WakefulUG : We deal with facts, not rhetoric.

  • Richard Willmer

    By the way, it is reported that over 40,000 girls were defiled by their (male) teachers in 2008.

    http://www.ugandanlink.com/general-discussion/585-40000-pupils-defiled-by-their-teachers-in-uganda.html?Itemid=0

    Perhaps self-righteous, gay-hating Ugandan heterosexuals should ‘pause for thought’.

  • Richard Willmer

    It is also probably the case the anal intercourse is widely practiced by heterosexual couples, by the way.

  • WakefulUgandan

    @ WakefulUG : We deal with facts, not rhetoric.

    Mr. Morton worked tirelessly to break apart Dr. Ssempa’s relationships – FACT

    The APA removal of homosexuality from the DSM was a political vote – FACT

    MAAZI is speaking the view held by most Ugandans – FACT

    Many so-called gay activists in Uganda are in it for the money – FACT

    The ANUS is the sewer line of the digestive system – FACT

    The reproductive parts are made for that purpose by design – FACT

    The sex predator in Entebbe sodomized underage, young boys – FACT

    Positive correlation between pederasty & homosexuality has been statistically tested and found +ve – FACT

    Kato died at the hands of his lover not as a result of a sex crime – FACT

    The arbitrary superimposition of Western individualistic hedonistic value systems on the African continent assumes a superiority of ideology by virtue of differences in material estate and is no difference from the cultural superimpositions of the colonial times and may therefore be construed as neo-colonialism – FACT

    Kinsey released results from his studies “in the lab” and diaries of sexual perverts about timings on when paedophiles observed children showing pleasure in sex including a lecherous collection of homosexual paedophilic encounters for which unfortunately he was never investigated – FACT

    Homosexuals have serious mental issues as the removal of homosexuality from the DSM was never based on scientific evidence – FACT

    Defenders of the gay ideology have a common line of rhetoric to try to “disarm” arguments “against” homosexuality by saying, “after all heterosexuals do the same things” – FACT

    Why then if people abuse alcohol and beat their wives wife beating should be decriminalized since those who aren’t drunk also do it… see the fitting end of the logic?

    The Anus is designed for its purpose as a sewer line and using it for purposes meant for the reproductive parts is a high risk public health danger – FACT

    We shall not allow the litany of STDs exclusive to those who abuse the digestive system to exacerbate the public health dangers we already are grappling with – FACT

  • WakefulUgandan

    @ Kato’s death meant to say hate crime!

  • Richard Willmer

    Very impressive, WUG!

    Here are a few FACTS for you:-

    1. People like Ssempa and Bahati have lied repeatedly about the purpose of the Bill;

    2. Those wishing to legitimise the abuse of gay people make all kinds of claims without presenting any credible evidence (e.g. false claims of so-called ‘recruitment’);

    3. The principal HIV risk factor in Uganda is almost certainly marital infidelity;

    4. Gay Ugandans are subjected to all kinds of abuse, regardless of whether or nor they abuse children or rape;

    5. Kinsey has been repeatedly discredited; his ‘work’ is also now ‘old hat’;

    6. Cases on record of defilement of boys by men are very small in number compared with that of girls;

    7. HIV transmission rates have been rising recently in UG, despite all the ‘moralising’ from the likes of Ssempa;

    8. NGOs are very clear that the criminalisation of gay hinders, rather than helps, the fight against HIV/AIDS;

    9. Many studies have suggested no statistical link between homosexual orientation and tendency to child abuse;

    10. Many heterosexual couples practice anal intercourse;

    11. ‘Sexual networking’ is common among heterosexuals in UG, and has certainly contributed to the spread of HIV;

    12. Many of your ‘facts’ above have been repeated for effect.

    Now a question for you; Bahati wants to criminalise activities such as oral sex, kissing and cuddling between people of the same sex, while allowing these same activities to be legal for heterosexuals. How do you justify this blatant discrimination? Are not laws supposed to regulate behaviour, rather than attack a particular segment of the population?

    Whatever you say to try to justify the abuse of your gay compatriots, countries like the USA, the UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Canada, …… , and organisations like the WHO, UNESCO, UNHCR, …… will not accept it. You will just have to live with that, and your political leaders will have to take this into account as they make choices on your behalf.

  • Richard Willmer

    On Kato’s death: a court case is still pending; noone should prejudge the outcome (especially since early witness statements mentioned two people going in a car Kato’s house before he was killed). However, it is a FACT that, three months before he was killed, the ‘Rolling Stone’ newspaper called for his murder.

  • Richard Willmer

    It is also (apparently) a FACT that you, like ‘Maazi NCO’, are frightened to divulge your true identity, despite the fact that noone here is threatening you with anything more than mild embarrassment (and you can avoid that by not posting on this blog!).

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 15, 2011 at 6:07 pm

    Do you have any sources for your “facts”?

    particularly these claims:

    “The APA removal of homosexuality from the DSM was a political vote – FACT

    Positive correlation between pederasty & homosexuality has been statistically tested and found +ve – FACT”

    Now the following claim I know to be incorrect. A lot of the research was done by Dr. Evelyn Hooker starting in the late 1950s, that contributed to the removal of homsexuality from the DSM.

    “Homosexuals have serious mental issues as the removal of homosexuality from the DSM was never based on scientific evidence – FACT”

  • Richard Willmer

    @ Ken

    With regard to Wug’s claim re. pederasty: in one sense it doesn’t matter, as the Bahati Bill is designed to exterminate people regardless of how they behave.

    (Anyway – We and Wug could a have very long ‘to-and-fro’, but it would be pointless: what we really need to know is just what went on last week. And my original response to Wug was itself rhetoric, but Wug was obviously too excited by the subject matter to point that out! As for claiming things to be ‘FACT’ – that too is often a rhetorical device.)

  • anteros

    WakefulUgandan is probably one of Ssempa’s “boyfriends” who are in it for the money… David Mulakazi, Robson Matovu, Samson Mukisa, Paul Kagaba, George Oundo… WakefulUgandan is just mad that he’s gotta find a new “sugar daddy” because Ssempa can’t afford any more scat porn subscriptions ever since his western donors figured him out for the fraud he is.

  • Richard Willmer

    I daresay you’re correct, Anteros. Wug’s rhetoric is very much along those lines.

    And mention of Ssempa brings us to another point. It was reported that Ssempa wanted the death penalty to be dropped from the Bahati Bill, but it appears that the Committee ignored him. Having seen the Committee report in full, I am struck by how cursory and badly drafted it is – clearly a ‘rushed job’. And why was it apparently leaked to the western press? What is that all about, I wonder?

    We should also probably be concerned about George Oundo’s safety. He has said so many different thing to different people that his position must be rather ‘tenuous’.

  • WakefulUgandan

    You know very that what I am talking about are FACTS but you simply pick n choose what to accept and not accept…typical but that’s why as a Nation we say NO! These things are superficial and that’s why the effectiveness of reason is never that EFFECTIVE is pushing the cart & threats and force are engaged in promoting the gay agenda.

    I am going to do this one time just to show you that I am a competent, quite well-educated Ugandan & I am also exposed & aware of your sly moves & not too far-removed from the movers and shakers of policy in our Nation (hint, hint *wink)

    Do you have any sources for your “facts”?

    On December 14, 1973 the Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association, meeting in Washington, D.C., eliminated homosexuality from the official Diagnostic and Statistical Manual without presenting substantive evidence for such a drastic revision of basic concepts of healthy vs. unhealthy sexual development. It should be noted that the World Health Organization’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual has not as yet followed suit.

    One of the two reasons for the removal was an official position paper (Spitzer, R.L., The Homosexual Decisions – A Background Paper. Psychiatric News, Jan. 16, 1974, pp. 11-12.) prepared by Dr. Robert Spitzer (Chairman, Nomenclature Task Force on Homosexuality, A.P.A.) for the Board prior to its decision. According to an article in Psychiatric News, “It was essentially upon the rationale of Dr. Spitzer’s presentation that the Board made its decision.”(Psychiatric News, Jan. 16, 1974, p. 11.) This paper in essence repeated Kinsey’s earlier assertion that homosexuality did not meet the requirements of a psychiatric disorder since it “does not either regularly cause subjective distress or [is] regularly associated with some generalized impairment in social effectiveness or functioning.”

    The second was the conclusion of Drs. Marcel T. Saghir and Eli Robins in their volume entitled Male and Female Homosexuality. (Robins, E. and Naghir, M.T. Male and Female Homosexuality. Williams and Wilkins Co. Baltimore, 1973.) These findings were derived from one structured lengthy interview with homosexuals (recruited through homophile organizations) and “unmarried heterosexual controls” (solicited by mail and paid for the interview), and coincided with the position paper above.

    The term “sexual orientation disturbance (homosexuality)” was now to be substituted for homosexuality. It is defined as follows:

    This is for individuals whose sexual interests are directed primarily toward people of the same sex and who are either disturbed by, in conflict with, or wish to change their sexual orientation. This diagnostic category is distinguished from homosexuality, which by itself does not constitute a psychiatric disorder. Homosexuality per se is one form of sexual behavior, and with other forms of sexual behavior, which are not by themselves psychiatric disorders, are not listed in this nomenclature.(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, July, 1974.)

    [Charles W. Socarides, M.D in the American Journal of Psychotherapy 1978]

    As to the correlation between pederasty and homosexuality, it is widely verified that almost all paedophilia (whether against boys or girls) is committed by men. SCREAM!! Where are your sources? Well, go do your homework? I have done mine.

    Now since homosexuals comprise only 1-3% (1/100-3/100) of the total population, it is dumbfounding 1/3 of all paedophilia against boys is committed by male homosexuals. For a statistically small group, that’s quite a bit of hard work! And the apple don’t fall far from the NAMBLA tree just a case in point. AND the all too fresh in the memory priestly goings-on in the Catholic Church.

    On Kato’s death: a court case is still pending

    It goes to show ignorant of the goings-on on-the-ground you are! Do you suppose this man (in custody now) who admitted to killing Kato and was found with his clothes, among other things had been his first victim? Oh you people either know nothing or think we are too stupid to see through your deception. Like our Nigerian brothers say, ha ha ha ha “you laugh me!”

    Let me recap the lies that just won’t fly & hey these people say they are tolerant & anything goes but they are not tolerant of any debate that puts forward demonstrable, self-evident proof that homosexuality is an unchained dragon!

    People like Ssempa and Bahati have lied repeatedly about the purpose of the Bill

    - LIE

    Those wishing to legitimise the abuse of gay people make all kinds of claims without presenting any credible evidence (e.g. false claims of so-called ‘recruitment’)

    – LIE

    Currently at the main campus of MUK gay recruiters pay a monthly stipend of 800k Uganda Shillings to impressionable financially challenged students to engage in homosexuality but this will soon be unearthed. It is being investigated quietly. And of course, all the cases we have had of “so-called men of God” have involved “pastors” forcing gay sex onto their parishioners in return for material gain who then turn on others and the chain continues

  • anteros

    @Richard: with regards to his position on the death penalty in the bill, ssempa has been playing chameleon since 2009… wouldn’t be surprised if he quietly changed his position again at the very last minute.

  • Richard Willmer

    Good morning WUGGY!

    I can assure you that there is plenty of evidence for the dissembling of Bahati and Ssempa on this very blog (their recorded statements have, on numerous occasions, been set against the text of the Bill). There is also plenty of evidence (from people like yourself, among others) that people tells lies about gays in order justify abuse.

    How do you intend to ‘unearth’ evidence for the MUK claims? How much is that likely to cost you, I wonder, and who’s providing the cash?! And who are these ‘pastors’ that you claim are abusing their parishioners? And if people are ‘forcing sex’ on others, shouldn’t you be contacting then police rather than talking to me?

    And while you scrabble around confecting ‘evidence’, your country appears to be sliding into political chaos.

  • anteros

    okay, so WakefulUgandan was ssempa’s tag-along at scott lively’s conference in kampala. he attended hoping to score a transport refund but ended up getting hypnotized and brainwashed by lively and friends.

  • WakefulUgandan

    The principal HIV risk factor in Uganda is almost certainly marital infidelity

    - LIE

    The researchers interviewed couples who had lived together at a given time (they were not legally married) BUT it is true in so far as one can say heterosexual MCPs are the major drivers of the spread of HIV especially in urban centres.

    ALTHOUGH we mustn’t forget the potential STD problems accruing from gay sex!

    Gay Ugandans are subjected to all kinds of abuse, regardless of whether or nor they abuse children or rape – LIE

    Those known to engage in such acts have always been lovingly protected by their clans & counselled to no avail.

    Kinsey has been repeatedly discredited; his ‘work’ is also now ‘old hat’

    - half LIE half TRUTH

    Because the gay activists here still pander his 10% statistic

    Cases on record of defilement of boys by men are very small in number compared with that of girls

    -half LIE half TRUTH

    Given that boys suffer quietly but also by statistical comparison the number of boys given the small population nucleus of their potential abusers is appallingly high meaning the abuse has to be frequent and abnormally heightened to reach the mark.

    HIV transmission rates have been rising recently in UG, despite all the ‘moralising’ from the likes of Ssempa

    - half TRUTH half LIE

    It depends on your sample space BUT that doesn’t mean compounding it by legalizing the most efficient means of HIV transmission known to man viz ANAL SEX

    NGOs are very clear that the criminalisation of gay hinders, rather than helps, the fight against HIV/AIDS

    - LIE

    It’s a superficial problem created for just the purpose of the decriminalization agenda afterall, it has already been admittted that by far the vast majority of HIV/AIDS transmissions occur via the NORMAL order of nature in sex encounters

    Many studies have suggested no statistical link between homosexual orientation and tendency to child abuse

    - LIE

    Go get yourself a good objective research done by a researcher not sponsored by gay money or with gay interests. Precaution: do not ask for help from a NAMBLA rep. lol

    Many heterosexual couples practice anal intercourse

    SORRY AM NOT A VOYEUR! You tell me

    ‘Sexual networking’ is common among heterosexuals in UG, and has certainly contributed to the spread of HIV

    - TRUE

    As is the case in most of SSA where people enjoy sex, albeit irresponsibly, ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF NATURE

    Many of your ‘facts’ above have been repeated for effect

    IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO HOLD AN OPINION

    Bahati wants to criminalise activities such as oral sex, kissing and cuddling between people of the same sex, while allowing these same activities to be legal for heterosexuals. How do you justify this blatant discrimination?

    I DUNNO WHERE YOU GOT THAT MAN BUT ONE THING IS CERTAIN, MEN HAVING SEX WITH MEN IS AGAINST THE ORDER OF NATURE & REMAINS A MENTAL DISORDER that must be compassionately treated.

    Whatever you say to try to justify the abuse of your gay compatriots, countries like the USA, the UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Canada, …… , and organisations like the WHO, UNESCO, UNHCR, …… will not accept it. You will just have to live with that, and your political leaders will have to take this into account as they make choices on your behalf

    It is a LIE that anyone abuses gay people in Uganda. They are odd & their own confused inner state leads to feelings of isolation BUT like I mentioned before CLANS HAVE lovingly protected those whom they know to desire to have sex AGAINST the order of Nature.

    As to the list of gay-minder organizations, we will see about that.

    In conclusion, dear gentlemen, Ugandan will not embrace the deviant sexual behaviour of homosexuality but we will reach out to homosexuals in compassion to help them walk the journey of dealing with their own sense of self-abhorrence.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ Anteros : Ssempa is a very confused man – and probably rather desperate as the Kayanja case moves haltingly towards it conclusion (he [Ssempa] could get up to five years if found guilty).

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WUGGLES : I’m not going to argue with you any more, expect to say that ‘reaching out to compassion’ does not usually involve a hangman’s noose (unless we’ve gone back to ‘Maazi NCO’s’ so-called ‘African values’!)!

    On the subject of the child abuse: men generally abuse far more than do women. The most appropriate comparison to make is between the number of girls abused by men (40,000+ by teachers alone in 2008, it is reported) and the number of boys abused by men (very few reported cases).

  • Richard Willmer

    @ Anteros : One the subject of Ssempa: you do realise that he breached Clause 13 of the (revised) Bahati Bill when he put together and screaned his little ‘shows’. And he did his ‘show’ more than one, so it could be argued that he was in breach of Clause 3, as a ‘serial offender’. You know what that means, don’t you?! Fortunately he has an American wife, so maybe the USA will ‘reach out in compassion’ to him and let him seek asylum there if need be.

  • WakefulUgandan

    I’m not going to argue with you any more, expect to say that ‘reaching out to compassion’ does not usually involve a hangman’s noose (unless we’ve gone back to ‘Maazi NCO’s’ so-called ‘African values’!)!

    If heterosexual rape is a CAPITAL crime, I do not see why HOMOSEXUAL rape shouldn’t be. Or you mean to say, it is acceptable! I think that is the kind of equality you are looking for afterall!!

    On the subject of the child abuse: men generally abuse far more than do women. The most appropriate comparison to make is between the number of girls abused by men (40,000+ by teachers alone in 2008, it is reported) and the number of boys abused by men (very few reported cases)

    INDEED VERY FEW REPORTED CASES. Keyword – [Reported]

    Plus ofcourse the same ol statistical frequency ealier explained Mr. Richard Willmer!

  • Richard Willmer

    @ Martin :

    1. The rape laws could easily be amended to make them ‘gender-neutral’;

    2. The number of girls being abused could also be much higher than the reported figure, and probably is.

  • Richard Willmer

    Have a nice day!

  • WakefulUgandan

    @ Martin :

    1. The rape laws could easily be amended to make them ‘gender-neutral’;

    2. The number of girls being abused could also be much higher than the reported figure, and probably is.

    1. Homo-centric legislation now ah? It goes to show how so individualistic and self-centred this runs!

    2. Well, you can guess till the roosters go home but the reality stays firmly on sentry watching ;-)

    Have a nice day!

    Thank you! You too Richard ;-)

  • Richard Willmer

    No, Martin – sexual offences laws should be ‘gender-neutral’ (not homo- or hetero- or anythingelsaro-centred), so that all are protected as far as possible. There are plans to change UG laws on rape along such lines, I gather.

  • WakefulUgandan

    No, Martin – sexual offences laws should be ‘gender-neutral’ (not homo- or hetero- or anythingelsaro-centred), so that all are protected as far as possible. There are plans to change UG laws on rape along such lines, I gather.

    Sorry to burst your bubble… hey you are a good guesser once again… trying to guess everything ah? No I AM NOT MARTIN!

    “Gender-neutral”…. all protected as far as possible?

    So the distinction between male & female is summarily blurred & we shall have all types of artificial gender types the transgenders, etc & all kinds of potential deviant behaviours emerging…

    Nope, we shall stick with what works for us. Thank you very much.

  • Richard Willmer

    Child sexual abuse laws are already ‘gender-neutral’ (Penal Code [Amendment] Act, 2007), although this point kept ‘slipping your mind’ during your campaign for the Bahitler Bill, didn’t it, Martin? Do you have memory problems? Or are you simply a liar?

  • Richard Willmer

    So you claim Ugandan laws on sexual offences are working, do you, WUGGLES? My goodness me!!!

    What about those 40,000+ schoolgirls in 2008? Didn’t work for them, did it (especially the ones infected with HIV).

  • WakefulUgandan

    Child sexual abuse laws are already ‘gender-neutral’ (Penal Code [Amendment] Act, 2007), although this point kept ‘slipping your mind’ during your campaign for the Bahitler Bill, didn’t it, Martin? Do you have memory problems? Or are you simply a liar?

    I dunno who’s got the memory problems here. I just told you up there I am not Martin. Have you forgotten or you under a delusion that I am him!

    As to whether OUR laws are designed in the way you want them to be, that’s frankly none of your business.

    To assume that because you have done something in your culture and that culture happens to have a high GDP blah blah & therefore what is construed as good there is superior to all other perceived good in every other “economically inferior” culture is frankly neo-colonialist and subliminally racist in meaning and implication.

  • WakefulUgandan

    And calling Bahati bahitler is no more hateful than the hate you presuppose he is meting out against homosexuals.

    Equating an individual to a delusional murderer who killed 6 million people simply because he is articulating the objections of an entire Nation to a deviant behind in a lawful manner is just another typical stunt of mindless vilification of everyone who has done this sort of articulation before in your culture but I applaud the Scott Livelys of this world for keeping to their tune!

    The fact that whenever gay matters are subjected to a referendum the overwhelming majority show their objections to this deviant behaviour will continue to highlight the need for Nations to responsibly & urgently address matters of mental health.

  • Richard Willmer

    I think ‘Bahitler’ is rather a good name for him. He has said plainly that he longs for a genocide, like Hitler before him: http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2010/08/10728/

    And the death penalty for consensual acts is still there in the ‘revised’ bill (was this what you meant by ‘reaching out in compassion’ – with a rope?), so the ‘Bahitler’ name tag is still entirely relevant and deserved.

    Scott Lively does indeed appear to ‘keep to his tune’. The fact that the historical facts do not seem to give any credence to what he sings means that he might do better to change it!

    As for your laws (which are your business, although what any country does has an impact on its foreign relations,): I think my comment about the tragedy of all those abused schoolgirls might have hit a ‘raw nerve’.

    I have not mentioned GDP in any of my comments. Your reference to it smacks of paranoia.

    Anyway, WUGGLES, perhaps you would like to say a little more about your involvement with the Bill, which bits you support and which bits you oppose. Have you actually read the draft bill and Committee’r report, by the way. I could provide you with a copy of each if you wish.

  • WakefulUgandan

    Aggravated robbery in Uganda refers to committing robbery violently (using a knife, a gun and other weapons intended to harm the victim). More often than not, aggravated robbery has resulted in the death of victims or as frequently mortal injury.

    The term Aggravated whenever it is used, in Ugandan law, the context is derived from a victim – “victimizer” relationship.

    Therefore, Aggravated homosexuality is when an aggressive homosexual (aided by an instrument of violence) obtains anal sex and other forms of deviant homosexual sex from their victim.

    For example, that man in Entebbe who forcefully had anal sex with boys of 12 sometimes enticed them. In other instances, he threatened them by use of an instrument of violence to bring them into a place of submission where he could violate them sexually.

    It’s absolutely imperative to increase the opportunity cost for this pre-meditated behaviour.

    Consequently aggravated homosexuality is equal to aggravated heterosexual rape and both are equal to CAPITAL CRIMES & Capital CRIME = Death Penalty.

    Anyway, WUGGLES, perhaps you would like to say a little more about your involvement with the Bill, which bits you support and which bits you oppose. Have you actually read the draft bill and Committee’r report, by the way. I could provide you with a copy of each if you wish

    I think Mr. Richard you are an adult of above average intelligence. Hopefully, it should be clear to you sir what I support & what I don’t by now.

    As to availing me ABCD…. thanks no thanks. I certainly know much, much, much more than you do!

  • Richard Willmer

    Actually, Mr./Ms./Dr./Rev. WUGGLES, you are wrong about the ‘aggravated homosexuality’ clause (Clause 3). It provisions include death by hanging for CONSENSUAL sexual acts, and even for so-called ‘serial offenders’ who have never had same-sex relations with anyone. If it were solely about rape (and/or aggravated defilement), then we would not be having this argument.

    You are doing what Ssempa and Bahitler have tried to do. They both made similar claims, but noone who can read is fooled by their antics on this score.

    (A point of interest: by showing ‘gay’ porn in public, Ssempa breached Clause 13 on two occasions. It could be argued that this makes him a ‘serial offender’, and therefore in breach of Clause 3, and liable to the death penalty. Now, I have no wish to see Ssempa hanged, but it cannot be denied that, if the Bill were already law – something we hope will never be, a case against could be made. Under UK law, he would now be in prison, especially given that children were present during all or part of each his ‘shows’. I would, under such circumstances, be happy to visit him and ‘reach out in compassion’ to him – I have been a prison visitor in the past as part of my church work.)

    Perhaps you’d like to say a little more about what you mean by ‘reaching out in compassion’ and indicate how this has anything whatsoever to do with the Bahitler Bill in either its original or amended form.

  • Richard Willmer

    I know what aggravted robbery is by the way. A Ugandan friend of mine was (falsely) accused of it. The court threw out the case.

  • WakefulUgandan

    I know what aggravted robbery is by the way. A Ugandan friend of mine was (falsely) accused of it. The court threw out the case.

    Brilliant! So it follows that if the same is committed against the list of victims in Clause 3, the punishment is the death penalty.

    Ah, Richard! I thought this is obvious ha ha ha . Aggravated homosexuality by definition limits the conditions under which it is considered as a CAPITAL CRIME. It is not the kind of victims that set context for these conditions.

    I do not therefore see how aggravated homosexuality which is a victim-”victimizer”, forceful & violent by definition, can be consensual. Ha ha ha I thought that is bright as the mid-day sun ;-)

    Perhaps I wish to add that catholic priests who repeatedly abused under-age boys as they were moved from diocese are serial offenders.

    So if someone is continually going about their paedophilic business, it is time to hold them to account.

    And of course, again when we interpret the context for this legislation for you, we are lying. Ugandans are lying again oh no!

    Because, all you want to see is what you believe to be the “correct” POV which is the only possible view in this matter and it happens to be your POV.

    Thankfully, that will not happen in Uganda on our watch.

  • Richard Willmer

    You’re being (deliberately) obtuse, WUGGLES.

    Clause 3 of the Bahitler Bill provides for death by hanging for, among others, someone deemed to be a ‘serial offender’ with respect to any ‘offence’ listed in the Bill. These ‘offences’ include consensual relations and things like obtaining pornography or renting a room to someone who is gay. Read the Bill from beginning to end and you might then understand.

    The term ‘aggravated’ has been deliberately misused in the Bahitler Bill, so that all gays, and indeed anyone who speaks out for their fundamental human rights, could be hanged. It’s all there is black and white, and nothing that liars like ‘Maazi NCO’, Ssempa, Bahitler, or anyone else might say can change that. This is the main reason why the West is considering sanctions against Uganda with regard to the Bill.

  • WakefulUgandan

    TEACHING ME ABOUT THE BILL? YOU HAVE NERVE!

    You really are being paranoid here. No wonder you are reading into it meanings that you choose to!!

    Well, should you catch yourself in Uganda and you harass our young boys quietly one after the other and then one day the weight of evidence breaks upon you, be sure you will be tried to the fullest extent of the law as a serial paedophile.

    And the term aggravated shall always retain its inherent meaning for every legal context where it is used in Uganda.

    Okay now go on and have the last word Richard lol ;-)

    I need to catch my “flight”…

  • http://wthrockmorton.com Warren

    WakefulUgandan:

    Nerve is not it. The ability to read is more it.

    Your own leaders have acknowledged that the bill covers consensual relations. The President of the National Association of Social Workers – Uganda, Charles Tuhaise acknowledged this to me. Also, Martin Ssempa acknowledged that the current Uganda law covers defilement of boys and girls. If all the law was about was aggravated offenses then it is redundant. Law profs at Makerare Univ. have analyzed the bill and come to the same conclusion – consensual relations are targeted.

    Your own leaders have acknowledged this. The international critics would not be taking the positions they are if this bill was only about child abuse and/or rape. This issue would never have reached the level it has if that is all is was about.

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 16, 2011 at 1:39 am

    “You know very that what I am talking about are FACTS but you simply pick n choose what to accept and not accept”

    No, I’m not the person doing that here.

    “[Charles W. Socarides, M.D in the American Journal of Psychotherapy 1978]”

    However, Dr. Socarides’ review of the removal of Homosexuality from the DSM leaves out quite a bit of information. You’ll note he never mentions the work of Dr. Hooker or the NIMH task force report on homosexuality. He also represents the process for the change as having happened in a single meeting of the APA on Dec. 14., which is quite inaccurate. there were a series of meetings/discussions/debates on the topic.

    Nor does he make the claim that “the removal of homosexuality from the DSM was never based on scientific evidence ” as you did. Although it would be fair to say he disagreed with the evidence presented. However, further research SINCE the removal has also supported the decision to remove it.

    “As to the correlation between pederasty and homosexuality, it is widely verified that almost all paedophilia (whether against boys or girls) is committed by men. SCREAM!! Where are your sources? Well, go do your homework? I have done mine.”

    then you should have no trouble citing your sources. Note, while I agree that the majority of child molestation is perpetrated by men, that does not mean the men are homosexual, nor does it prove that homosexuals have a higher rate of child molestation than heterosexuals. It only shows that men have a higher rate than women.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WUG :

    Well, I can assure everyone here that I have neither the desire nor the intention of abusing or exploiting children or vulnerable adults, either here or in Uganda! I have worked with children and vulnerable adults for many years and have a good professional record all round, as my (Ugandan) boss would happily tell you if you were to ask her! (She is also an excellent educator, by the way; I was her boss before we ‘swapped roles’ – so much more ‘democratic’ that way, don’t you think? – a few years ago.)

    In this country (the UK), we have a strong system of checks that help to avoid horrible situations such as the 40,000+ female victims of abuse in 2008. (They are not foolproof, but all indications are that they work pretty well. The broader ‘culture’ also includes professional standards that demand that public servants respect all those whom they serve, regardless of who they are. This is the kind of ‘culture’ that best drives down abuse and safeguards children and young people.)

    You have clearly been misled about the Bahati Bill. I am pleased that you have come to this blog and have had the opportunity to be told the truth about it.

    Feel free to read the Bill yourself (in conjunction with the proposed amendments – which are, substantially speaking, slight), and then make up your own mind about it. Don’t allow yourself to be deceived by irresponsible and dangerous demagogues like Ssempa. Your country as a whole is in a serious situation at the moment, and people like you need to take more responsibility for its future, and stop spreading falsehood and hatred.

  • Richard Willmer

    “In this country (the UK), we have a strong system of checks that help to avoid horrible situations such as the 40,000+ female victims of abuse in 2008.”

    Just to clarify: this is the situation (in UG) which I cited earlier. Instances of defilement by teachers in the UK is mercifully rare.

  • WakefulUgandan
  • WakefulUgandan

    Newspapers

    And clearly the law enforcement has not been spared the disease:

  • WakefulUgandan

    Sorry these links are as stubborn as a serial paedophile!

    <http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1379946/UK-has-250000-

    paedophiles-says-police-study.html

    And clearly the law enforcement has not been spared the disease:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-151784/50-police-officers-arrested-child-porn-raids.html

  • Richard Willmer

    I certainly agree that the sexual exploitation of children through the internet is deplorable. The girls and boys so abused will doubtless be damaged by what they have suffered. I am pleased that arrests of those considered a danger to girls and/or boys have been made, and hope that any who found guilty of a crime will be held to account. It is good that operations are conducted to combat this type of internet-based crime – which is, as we all know, very difficult to deal with.

    However, Bahitler wants to kill people who have never raped anyone or abused children. He has used the lie that all gay people are a threat to children in order to whip up hatred and violence against them, and to justify ‘state-sponsored murder’.

    I notice that you are no longer contesting our contention that the Bill has provisions for ‘consenting adults’ to be hanged. Good. (Deep down, you knew we were telling the truth.)

  • WakefulUgandan

    I notice that you are no longer contesting our contention that the Bill has provisions for ‘consenting adults’ to be hanged. Good. (Deep down, you knew we were telling the truth.)

    Ever the guesser.

    As to the other matters, I see no need of repeating myself.

    Did you read that?

    Ugandan will not become a homosexual colony forget about that?

    If you still need to be told what the difference is between the digestive system and the reproductive system, Ugandans are not going to teach you that!

    Am not out to win an argument with you. I have made my point and I think you are now faced with the grim reality of living in a paedophilia country with teachers who groom their male pupils for sex for decades (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7129509/Paedophile-teacher-jailed-for-grooming-male-pupils-for-sex-with-sweets-and-computer-games.html)…

    “Homosexuals commit more than 33% of all reported child molestations in the United States, which, assuming homosexuals make up 2% of the population, means that 1 in 20 homosexuals is a child molestor, while 1 in 490 heterosexuals is a child molestor” (Psychological Reports, 1986)

    Every 1 in 20 homosexuals is potentially a paedophile… That we shall not allow in Uganda.

    Okay my point is made. Now back to stoking the flames into this bill. It must pass soon.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WUG

    I doubt if the statistics you cite are correct (they are rather old, for one thing). Who wrote the report, by the way?

    HOWEVER, let us, for a moment, assume for the sake of argument that they are correct, and that 19 out of 20 gay men are not ‘paedophiles’. Why then does Bahati want to kill all gay people, including lesbians (who appear, at least from UK statistics, to be the least likely to molest children).

    Obviously, there are isolated cases of teachers who sexually abuse or exploit underage persons, just as there are 50 police officers who, pursuant to the largest investigation ever of its kind, namely Operation Ore (which has been being conducted for some time), are under suspicion of procuring child pornography. Deplorable – and I am very relieved that such outrages are being dealt with. It is also a very good thing that there is proper openness about these matters, and that things are, by and large, not ‘swept under the carpet’.

    (I could attach several reports of sexual abuse cases from the UG press, despite that it is felt by many that such things are generally underreported. But I won’t.)

    You have not made any credible point regarding Bahitler’s desired ‘slaughter programme’ (see Clause 3 of the Bill, and his comments to Jeff Sharlet). I will repeat myself: you know perfectly well that what we are saying about the Bill is entirely true; you just won’t admit it.

    So you’re off to ‘stoke the flames’? Aren’t there already enough ‘flames’ in UG at the moment?

  • WakefulUgandan

    Ah you tempt me with your feeble protestations ha ha ha

    HOWEVER, let us, for a moment, assume for the sake of argument that they are correct, and that 19 out of 20 gay men are not ‘paedophiles’. Why then does Bahati want to kill all gay people, including lesbians (who appear, at least from UK statistics, to be the least likely to molest children).

    Part 1

    Okay let me spin it up also. 1 in 490 heterosexual men are likely to be paedophiles compared to 1 in 20 homosexual men. Since the ratio is 1:1 we do a quick division it follows that it is 24.5 times more likely that a homosexual man will be a paedophile!

    So for every 19 homosexuals that supposedly are not paedophiles, there are 489 heterosexual men who are not paedophiles. Once again divide 489/19 = 26 (rounded to the top). Okay what does that mean?

    Heterosexual men are 26 times more unlikely to be paedophiles.

    Okay compare the stats:

    For every 24.5 times homosexual men are likely to be paedophiles, it is 26 times likely that heterosexuals won’t be paedophiles.

    For a population group that makes up on 1-3 percent of the entire population, that is “heroic” —- grrr thumbs down!!

    Again Uganda says, no to ANAL SEX. No to the Sewer line.

    And it is these homosexuals that are driving men out of the teaching profession (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1215884/Paedophile-fears-driving-male-teachers-primary-schools-according-General-Teaching-Council-England.html)

    So much for all being well in England & there being only “isolated” cases of teachers abusing their pupils!!

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WUG

    You miss the point … again. (And anyway, I don’t believe those statistics – they are 25 years old, and are – I daresay – based on all kinds of ‘assumptions’.)

    If people abuse children, then there should be sanctions against them. If someone rapes another person, the rapist should be held to account. But Bahati wants to kill people who have done neither of these things (see Clause 3 of the Bill and his comments to Jeff Sharlet). If you support his bill, then you are effectively saying that you want the same thing. How does that fit with ‘reaching out in compassion’?

    And what has that Daily Mail article got to do with homosexuality? Homosexuality is not mentioned. (If that’s the best you can do …)

  • Richard Willmer

    I think you misread the Daily Mail article, actually. What it was saying was that men were afraid to teach in primary schools because they feared being accused of being paedophiles, not that they were.

  • Maazi NCO

    This is the main reason why the West is considering sanctions against Uganda with regard to the Bill.

    Dear Richard,

    Quit talking nonsense. No serious nation that has geo-strategic/geo-political goals in the Great Lakes Region of Africa will place sanctions on Uganda because of an ephemeral issue such as gayism. Gayism is not the foreign policy of the top western nations—whatever lies the western leaders tell their domestic pro-gay liberal electorate. If it was top foreign policy then the pro-western gulf arab sheikdoms will not be allies of the United States and your beloved UK.

    If gayism was top foreign policy, the US secretary of state Hilary Clinton— during her visit to Malaysia last year to promote southeast asia alliance against China— would have condemned the trial of ex- deputy PM Anwar Ibrahim for sodomy rather than sheepishly telling local journalists that “America has been assured by the authorities that the trial would be free and fair”. I can tell you right now that if Saudi Arabia enacted a new anti-sodomy law, there would be booming silence from most Western government quarters. The only opposition will come from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and a bevy of western gay lobbies.

    If Uganda had gone ahead with a watered-down version of this bill. The only unaminous action of western nations will be verbal condemnation. Beyond verbal declarations, we will start noticing differences. The Scandinavian nations will–no doubt— withdraw their meagre funding, but United States and UK for geo-political/geo-strategic reasons will do nothing of the sort, especially when Ugandan troops are deployed in war-torn, terrorist-afflicted Somalia. Not when Uganda is adjacent to the natural resource-rich Democratic Republic of Congo. Mr. Willmer you have no idea how international politics works. The Ugandan government failed to support this bill for other reasons which will not be discussed on this blog. Eventually, there would be time to try an alternative approach…..

  • Maazi NCO

    I have noticed a firebrand exchange of fire between Wakeful Ugandan and Richard Willmer. I find these exchanges interesting and will be monitoring further comments from the sidelines. So no Mr. Richard Willmer, I shall not be jump directly into the fray.

  • Richard Willmer

    Well, we’ll see what happens IF further discriminatory laws are passed, ‘Maazi’. And if they are, it won’t affect me personally, of course. It’s more a matter of ‘principle’.

    I think you need to understand that several countries do see the issue of human rights for LGBT persons in a wider human rights context. You might be correct in your assessment, of course; then again, you might not be. Malawi did much less than Bahati is proposing, and both Germany and UK have cut assistance (in the case of the UK, it was, I admit, because of a range of issue, not just the worsening of anti-gay laws – but there is a range of issues in UG too at the moment) – not that this causes me to rejoice … quite the contrary: I think it’s most regrettable (Malawi is a very very poor country).

  • Richard Willmer

    Indeed, ‘WUG’ and I have crossed swords. He is using the idea that some (he claims 5%, I would say rather less than that) gay people abuse children to try to justify the notion that all gay people should be locked up for life, or worse … though he might not realise that (unlike you, ‘Maazi’, he is unclear about the contents of the Bahati Bill – at least you have admitted that all gay people, regardless of whether they rape anyone or abuse children, or commit a real crime, are threatened with very extreme measures).

    He might, of course, be following Ssempa’s and Bahati’s example, and be lying about the Bill. That’s no use at all from his point of view – we know what we are talking about there.

  • Maazi NCO

    Geo-politically and geo-strategically Malawi is a minnow compared to The Republic of Uganda. Even then US government realized that it was a mistake to cut the 350 million dollar deal for Malawi because it negates US foreign policy of using donor aid to buy influence in the world and subsidize american companies which will be compulsorily hired as “consultants” to “manage” the 350 million dollar-project “on behalf of the Malawian partners”. Willmer, you have a lot to learn from Baron Otto von Bismarck’s age-old realpolitik.

  • Maazi NCO

    …. at least you have admitted that all gay people, regardless of whether they rape anyone or abuse children, or commit a real crime, are threatened with very extreme measures

    I never made such a statement or admitted what you are alleging that I admitted !! Is this a devious attempt to drive a wedge between me and my compatriot, Wakeful Ugandan?

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    You have made it clear in the past that you consider the Bahati Bill extreme and badly drafted (and I have to say that the Committee report appeared also to be ‘shoddy’ piece of work). You have, in December 2009, also said this (suggesting that you do wish to ‘persecute’ consenting adults in private):-

    “Gays who keep their heads down and do their stuff privately will be left alone …”

    (I am assuming this reflects you own view on what should happen.)

    This is not at all what Bahati wishes.

    As for sanctions: we’ll see what happens if … (if the Bahati Bill had gone through last week, ‘no action’ would have been very unlikely).

  • Richard Willmer

    I should have said “suggesting that you do NOT wish to ‘persecute’ consenting adults in private”. Apologies.

  • Richard Willmer

    Returning to the ‘paedophilia’ claims by ‘WUG’: here’s a fairly substantial review of the various studies that have been carried out: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

    Here is the conclusion of the review:-

    “The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.”

    @ Warren : Do you have any comments you feel should be made on this? Is it a fair and balanced assessment?

  • WakefulUgandan

    You must understand that your beloved Dr. Herek is a well-known gay apologist (and I think he is a gay man too) who has received over 5 million dollars in research grants. Knowing how much money Kinsey received in grants, it is no wonder researchers have learnt to “research” the things that attract the money.

    The link you have put up above continues with Kinsey’s flawed idea that sexuality is a “mind thing” and not an objective reality confirmed in the distinction between male and female.

    He also fronts the Kinsey idea that sexuality is “fluid” & continues to buttress his subsequent criticism using the idea. [We shouldn't forget Kinsey's experiments included timings for orgasm for babies who were only a couple of months old]

    Let get some excerpts below.

    Here:

    The distinction between a victim’s gender and a perpetrator’s sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don’t really have an adult sexual orientation…Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women…Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as “fixated;” 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that “in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women….There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males…” (p.180).

    He also labours hard to blur the line between paedophilia and homosexuality by conjuring categories that make it seem more sensible for homosexuals to have anax sex with boys in later teenage years but not early teens or lower. That forms the theoretical basis for his argument but the whole idea of orientation is a farce in the first place anyhow, see below:

    The distinction between a victim’s gender and a perpetrator’s sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don’t really have an adult sexual orientation.

    Hey so coming up with another orientation yet again huh? Mr inventor?

    In scandals involving the Catholic church, the victims of sexual abuse were often adolescent boys rather than small children. Similarly, the 2006 congressional page scandal involved males who were at least 16 years old.

    Am sure NAMBLA would nod their heads to that. It is a journey towards their goal.

    These are cases in which the term pedophilia – referring as it does to attractions to prepubescent children – can cause confusion.

    Yeah, of course NAMBLA would nod to this too. You are eroding the protections for the children slowly by slowly.

    Compare to this:

    Excerpts from the 1990 Journal of Homosexuality special double issue devoted to adult-child sex. It was entitled “Male Intergenerational Intimacy” :

    1. “Many pedophiles believe they are born that way and cannot change” (p. 133).

    2. “A man who counseled troubled teenage boys could achieve ‘miracles… not by preaching to them, but by sleeping with them.’ The loving pedophile can offer a “companionship, security and protection” which neither peers nor parents can provide” (p. l62).

    3. “Parents should look upon the pedophile who loves their son ‘not as a rival or competitor, not as a thief of their property, but as a partner in the boy’s upbringing, someone to be welcomed into their home…’ (p. 164).

    4. “Boys want sex with men, boys seduce adult men, the experience is very common and much enjoyed.” (p.323)

    A person no longer has a psychological disorder simply because he molests children. To be diagnosed as disordered, now he must also feel anxious about the molestation, or be impaired in his work or social relationships. (DSM -IV)

    That means paedophiles can be psychologically “normal” now!!

    I wish Herek would also show us this side of the story… but he only concludes,

    “….many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.”

    It is just an opinion steeped in gay apology that is all.

    And by the way, I guess now you see why I ignored your flimsy retort that “my statistics were old”…

    -70% of homosexuals admitting to having sex only one time with over 50% of their partners (Bell, A. and Weinberg, M. Homosexualities: a Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978.)

    -The average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year (Corey, L. and Holmes, K. “Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men.” New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38. ).

    The average heterosexual has 8 partners in a lifetime.

    -Homosexuals account for 3-4% of all gonorrhea cases, 60% of all syphilis cases, and 17% of all hospital admissions (other than for STDs) in the United States (“Changes in Sexual Behavior and Incidence of Gonorrhea.” Lancet, April 25, 1987). This from a group that consists of only 1-3% of the population.

    -Homosexuals account for a the following volume of hepatitis cases: 70-80% in San Francisco, 29% in Denver, 66% in New York City, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal, and 26% in Melbourne (Fields, Dr. E. “Is Homosexual Activity Normal?” Marietta, GA.)

    What am I trying to say?

    I am saying that the evidence from the gay life-style is a good reflection of the mental state of homosexuals in general.

    Tell, you what I don’t want paedophiles near my children.

    And I will not let some theoretical lies about the fluidity of sexuality dupe me (sexuality is self-evident and a matter of common sense) into forgetting that for every 26 times a heterosexual teacher won’t be likely to harm my child the homosexual teacher will be likely to do so 25 times!

  • Richard Willmer

    May I remind you, ‘WUG’, that Bahati wants to kill (or imprison) gay people regardless of whether they commit a crime? This is the point that no about of verbiage on your part can dodge.

    As for your assertion that “for every 26 times a heterosexual teacher won’t be likely to harm my child the homosexual teacher will be likely to do so 25 times“: this statement is completely meaningless.

  • WakefulUgandan

    It’s demonstrable & has always been written in gay literature that homosexuals have a high propensity for ANAL SEX with minors, long for it & glamourize it.

    Fortunately, the dangers of paedophilia are known to every parent. See homosexuals never having families or children of their own don’t have an idea what it is to be a parent.

    No wonder, they write in their journals that paedophilia is a parenting tool.

    Question: Why didn’t those catholic priests go for minor females?

    Answer: They were inclined (orientated) towards ANAL SEX.

    As it stands, Richard, if you come to Uganda and commit Aggravated Homosexuality thereby extorting your sexual pleasures from the digestive system of any of the victims listed (the disabled, the little boys who maybe under your charge, etc), I would gladly love to personally command the police unit that comes to arrest you and collect all the evidence the prosecution needs to punish to the fullest extent of the law.

    PLUS we continue to say NO to more STDs…

  • Richard Willmer

    Thank you ‘WUG’, for declaring you intention to ‘reach out in compassion’ in what I assume is your usual style!

    But I think I should remind you that the ‘aggravated homosexuality’ clause in the Bahati Bill also includes provisions to hang people who have not raped anyone or abused children. As Warren said, it is simply a matter of being able to read.

    By the way, IF I come to UG (and I might), the male friends I would be visiting are all straight (as far as I know), so I would not envisage having sexual relations with any of them. So there would be no need for you (who likes to make threats from behind a silly pseudonym) to waste police time.

  • WakefulUgandan

    ALL YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR IS YOUR DESIRE TO HAVE UNRESTRAINED, “FREE RANGE CHICKEN” ANAL SEX NOTHING MORE…

    You want the tax payer in Uganda to pay for the legal burdens of maintaining your right and that of other men willing to engage in deviant behaviour that is demonstrably harmful not to themselves alone but society in general.

    No that we shall not give LICENSE in Uganda.

    You keep crying out for UNFETTERED ANAL SEX! That is your cause. But what a cause Mr. Willmer!

  • WakefulUgandan

    I meant to say your “right”… to have UNFETTERED ANAL SEX..

    Sorry about the usage of the word fetter but I didn’t mean to alude to the nebulous “arts” of ANAL SEX…

  • Richard Willmer

    I think we’ll stop now, WUG. You’re getting hysterical. Bye.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ Ken

    On the matter of the sexual abuse of minors: you summarise it very well when you say

    … while I agree that the majority of child molestation is perpetrated by men, that does not mean the men are homosexual, nor does it prove that homosexuals have a higher rate of child molestation than heterosexuals. It only shows that men have a higher rate than women.

    The whole issue is a very complex one, of course. We see this also with rape, where many men who rape other men actually present as heterosexual.

    Both child sexual abuse and rape are, IMHO, really about the abuse of power, and not a function of ‘sexuality’ at all. I suspect that this is a generally held view in ‘informed’ societies. When he condemned the Bahati Bill, the Archbishop of York, Dr. John Sentamu, made the point that the proposed legislation confused ‘sexuality’ with ‘aggravated sexuality’ – the latter being essentially about power.

  • http://www.wthrockmorton.com Warren

    WakefulUgandan – Can you tell me the source for the studies you have listed there? In other words, from what person or organization have you gotten these references?

  • Richard Willmer

    Perhaps I should just clarify the last phrase of my comment above. All human relationships have ‘power’ aspects in them. I would say that healthy human relationships require a ‘balance of power’ between the ‘high contracting/consenting parties’; abusive ones arise where there is a serious imbalance.

  • WakefulUgandan

    @ Warren I think I do not have to frankly tell you anything.

    I think you have the competence to look up those catalogues yourself. Please do.

    Or also to google.

    For example, a mere google search on [Bell, A. and Weinberg, M. Homosexualities: a Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978]

    yields quite a wealth of information on the same.

    • http://wthrockmorton.com Warren

      WUg – No, you don’t have to tell, but you are on my blog making claims based on research that does not support your essential claims. Anyone who knows the literature on this topic knows that you are choosing a few sources that seem to make your case, but ignoring the preponderance of the evidence to the contrary.

      I have the book you refer to in my library and after reviewing all of their data does not come to the conclusions you do.

      However, the sources you list and the way you use them, reminds me of Paul Cameron, or Scott Lively or even NARTH. If you personally went to these sources and read them yourself without using the biases websites and work of someone else, then I would have one reaction. However, if you are repeating the biased work of someone else then I would have another reaction.

      If you are not going to dialogue in a constructive way, then I don’t know why you are here.

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 17, 2011 at 9:10 am

    “@ Warren I think I do not have to frankly tell you anything.

    I think you have the competence to look up those catalogues yourself.”

    Warren is also competent enough to recognize when research results are being mis-represented (ex. using much older research that has been updated or invalidated with newer more accurate results).

    I suspect I know the source of your information, i.e. I don’t think you’ve actually studied these issues yourself but are just parroting information you’ve gotten from another person or organization. Warren was asking if this was the case. Although, I suspect he (as do I) have a pretty good idea who your source it.

  • Richard Willmer

    It was 1986 last time, now we go back in time to 1978.

    Pre-war vintage papers will be offered shortly.

  • WakefulUgandan

    @ Warren I do not see why you hold it upon me to try to validate my submissions hither or thither.

    I think you and the rest of the people on the other side of the fence do make your positions known & no one asks you to validate nothing.

    You pick and choose the parts and pieces I must “defend.” That’s laughable.

    How come you have not thrown the spot light on the material in the Journal of Homosexuality? If you so want, I will begin putting here material from homosexual publications that reveals the “ethos” of the homosexual style…. perhaps that is more acceptable to you!

    You seem to think that the whole world owes you a justification why it thinks different than you or that you seek to bring “us” to a place of “common sense”. Sense being the world view that you hold and assume to be the one that everyone is obligated to hold.

    I think that is minimalistic and if you are truly seeking divergent views on your blog then you shouldn’t be “harassing” anyone for offering them to you.

    I submit that it is very important, as Ugandans, to let you and your troops know that what you are promoting is not something that is welcome in our country.

    I freely hold the views that I have and I have formed them over time. I have researched the homosexual issues, among other issues affecting our Nation, for more than the seven years now.

    I have read widely and I know what I am talking about.

    I have been part of processes that have dealt with victims of forced ANAL sex.

    I do speak from a position of authority & frankly, I do not care whether you perceive me as Y or Z.

    What is very important to this discussion is to point out the things that are swept under th carpet of the climate of opinion and to air the things that the “system” doesn’t want to be said.

    Whereas all of you here submit to the notion that homosexuals are some kind of genus different from the rest of us, I DO NOT. Neither do the rest of Ugandans whose voice I represent here.

    I suspect you may block me off from posting anything here. Go ahead and do that.

    BUT I am letting you know that what you are promoting is unwelcome and is fundamentally an abuse of the human body which we shall not tolerate in Uganda.

    Warren you have done many people much harm but I can assure you you will do Uganda no harm this time.

    • http://wthrockmorton.com Warren

      WakefulUg – If you speak from a position of authority, then I cannot imaging why you will not speak on the record with your real name. If you want to carry a serious scientific dialogue on about these matters, then do so. If you don’t want to do it on a blog, then contact me at my email address (warrenthrockmorton@gmail.com) and I will do so.

      You are making claims that can be falsified and you claim I hold to positions that I do not hold.

      Just one point, forced anal sex is not the same as consensual anal sex. If you had dealt with victims of forced vaginal sex would you then condemn consensual vaginal sex?

      Another question if you don’t mind. Since you really don’t like anal sex, will you also seek to criminalize anal sex between straight people?

  • WakefulUgandan

    And Warren I think it would have been professorial, since as you say you have the book, to highlight where you think my statistic is misconstrued… I think professors usually do this thing called peer review or something….

  • WakefulUgandan

    Another question if you don’t mind. Since you really don’t like anal sex, will you also seek to criminalize anal sex between straight people?

    As I told your colleague Willmer, before, there are two possibilities to this view point.

    First, that it is voyeuristic and presupposes an in-situ follow up on bedroom affairs. Quite lecherous..

    Second, it is an indication of the perception that sexuality is fluid and a man can tilt towards proclivities for anal sex under the spur of a mood or something.

    Undeniably, there are some experimenters out there but that doesn’t make ANAL SEX safe. You know very well your own CDC released statistics showing homosexuals (and for political correctness I dare say they added bisexuals) have an HIV/AIDS prevalence that is 44 times that of other men. Homosexuality aside, this shows ANAL sex is inherently a major driving factor in HIV/AIDS prevalence. A public health suicide vest!

    Two simple things:

    -men don’t get women for ANAL sex

    -two wrongs don’t make a right

    Just like I told your Willmer I do not see the decriminalization of wife beating in Uganda in instances where a man is under the influence of a substance simply because men who are not under the influence do it!

    Just one point, forced anal sex is not the same as consensual anal sex. If you had dealt with victims of forced vaginal sex would you then condemn consensual vaginal sex?

    That is such a simple-minded enthymeme Warren!

    And I know you are not a simple-minded man. You have contrived machinations that have done many some harm…

    You know very well the ANUS is a sewer line. Not the same as the Vagina. Two different things, different purpose. Different “side effects”…

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WUG

    What about gay people who do NOT have anal intercourse? Do you want them to sent to prison (or, if ‘serial offenders’, to be hanged) as well?

  • WakefulUgandan

    @ Mr. Richard Willmer! I am not trying to peddle arguments or argue for argument’s sake…

    Has it occurred to you that we still regard homosexuality as a psychopathology and we utterly dismiss the ambiguous concept of orientation?

    Why then if John is attracted to dogs and he wants to mount them that is an orientation too!! Even if he never mounts them if he goes about romanticizing about mounting them John needs our help…

    If John starts going about a climbing on neighbours’ pups and big dogs something has to be done especially if he presents sophisticated talk about being unable to leave the neighbours’ dogs alone!

  • Richard Willmer

    So now you’re playing the old trick of citing bestiality. Since animals are not able explicitly to give informed consent, any comparison between bestiality and consensual same-sex relationships is completely bogus.

    Incidentally, bestiality was formally criminalised in the UK they same year that same-sex civil partnerships were introduced. So we can dispense with the old ‘if-we-allow-consensual-same-sex-relationships-it’ll-be-bestiality-next’ argument right now.

  • WakefulUgandan

    No Willmer! You once again miss the point…. and keep guessing!

    The crux is in the attraction that forms the core of the inherent superficial definition of “homosexual orientation”…

    Point is there is no limit to the amount of orientations there can be as long as the criterion lies within the purview of individual subjectivies. It was that simple Willmer!

  • Richard Willmer

    Eh? (I can see a collection of words above, but I’m not sure that anybody except WUG has the faintest idea what they might mean.)

    Anyway, here goes. There’s nothing ‘subjective’ about the idea that animals cannot give informed consent to a human in the way that another human can. Seems about as objective an observation as anything to me.

  • Richard Willmer

    I am going to digress for a moment, and say something about pseudonyms.

    Some people on this blog use a pseudonym. Of those people, some do so because, if the were not to do so, they would almost certainly be in some kind of danger. However, it is a fair bet that noone on this blog constitutes a direct threat to either ‘WakefulUgandan’ or ‘Maazi NCO’.

    I accept that some of the comments I have addressed to these two commenters are less than entirely respectful. However, because they are not under any direct threat from anyone here or anyone in the country from which I believe they are blogging, they have, in my opinion, forfeited the right to the courtesies that should be accorded to anyone who is truthful about who he/she is.

  • Richard Willmer

    Since WUG has mentioned STIs, I am going to offer, without – I admit – any data to back it up, a potentially contentious statement.

    Three of the most effectively ‘allies’ of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) are: sexual secrecy, dishonesty and hypocrisy. Homophobia is a precursor to all of these. Thus I contend that homophobia is an HIV risk factor.

  • Richard Willmer

    I should have said ‘effective‘, rather than ‘effectively’ (line 3). Apologies.

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 17, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    “I think you and the rest of the people on the other side of the fence do make your positions known & no one asks you to validate nothing.”

    actually, I (and others) have asked Warren (and others here) to cite sources for claims he has made. And Warren has been quite wiling to do so. Further, he doesn’t cite out-dated or misleading sources. Nor does he make inflammatory statements based more on his biases than on the facts.

    “You seem to think that the whole world owes you a justification why it thinks different than you or that you seek to bring “us” to a place of “common sense”. ”

    No, he simply understands that in an honest debate, people would be willing to provide sources for any statement of facts they make. However, it seems pretty clear you aren’t interested in an honest debate. You are only interested in sources that justify your own personal prejudices.

  • WakefulUgandan

    @ Ken as far I know I provided the citations for the positions I articulate. I think the prudent thing to do would be to look up the citations and interrogate the studies there for potential flaws. That’s what an honest inquirer does.

    You do not ask me to tell you how I was able to piece together studies and all because I am a secondary source. What should be trying to do is interrogate the studies themselves to see if they fit in your pre-conceived opinions ( and I am sure if they did you would be happy because it’s affirmation I guess) not asking me how I got a hold of those studies…

    You are only interested in sources that justify your own personal prejudices.

    I do not think the Journal of Homosexuality is on my side of the fence! Perhaps, I am going to start getting material from sources like that. Don’t worry there is an abundance of it all.

    Further, he doesn’t cite out-dated or misleading sources.

    I would not want to be as simple as to think that the passage of time invalidates a research study!

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 18, 2011 at 2:31 am

    “Ken as far I know I provided the citations for the positions I articulate. ”

    No actually you haven’t. Mostly you’ve cited articles that are out of date and don’t actually say what you have claimed. What you (or rather your sources) have done is carefully selected excerpts from old studies to mis-represent what research has to say about sexual orientation and gays in general.

    When Richard posted an link to updated information contrary to your claim about gays being pedophiles, you attacked the researcher with unproven claims of bias, but say nothing that disproves the actual research cited.

    The tactics you are using aren’t new, and most of the people here see them for what they are. Misguided attempts to use research to justify your prejudices.

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 18, 2011 at 2:31 am


    Further, he doesn’t cite out-dated or misleading sources.

    I would not want to be as simple as to think that the passage of time invalidates a research study!”

    No, but more current research does. the problem with the older research is that it was mostly based on extremely biased convenience samples.

  • WakefulUgandan

    Homosexuals account for 3-4% of all gonorrhea cases, 60% of all syphilis cases, and 17% of all hospital admissions (other than for STDs) in the United States (“Changes in Sexual Behavior and Incidence of Gonorrhea.” Lancet, April 25, 1987). This from a group that consists of only 1-3% of the population.

    I guess that is an article too!

    And I cooked up the CDC data too I guess…

    Ken you have just basically framed by submissions in a construct that is convenient for your liking but you have not made any substantive points. “Mere tub thumbingish talk” goes no where.

    If you think I have outlined a research that possessed limitations spell out those limitations to me & how they affected the validity of the generalization of the data from the sample space & outline a more recent research that has used a more homogeneous sample space that addresses those limitations, if any.

    As far as I know it is the gay quasi-science that has provided us with a track record of faked results!!

    At the moment you are just preaching and I told you here in Uganda we have weighed the common sense evidence (that an ANUS was designed for sewerage duties), the scientific evidence (as excerpts of tid-bits I have put here show) and the experiential evidence (with the litany of victims, etc), among other considerations, and we have chosen to codify our objections into a legal framework.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WUGGY

    You are clearly an expert when it comes to deception and irrelevance.

    DECEPTION because you continue to try misrepresent both the Bahati Bill (which is a nothing other than a savage ‘slaughter programme’ couched in ‘law’) and LGBT persons as a ‘group.

    IRRELEVANCE because even if what you say about child abuse etc, is true, the mass murder programme proposed by Bahati simply cannot be ‘justified’ on any reasonable grounds.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WUG

    Just in case you thought that anyone was fooled by all that talk of removing the death penalty for consensual sexual acts, here’s an article from David Bahati’s ‘new best friend’: http://lezgetreal.com/2011/05/uganda-kill-the-gays-bill-dumbfounds-the-press/

    Noone who knows anything about the Bill, and other related aspects of UG law (e.g. Penal Code 129) was fooled. Any many of those same people (e.g. myself) have a ‘direct line’ to their respective foreign ministries, which might explain this: http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/1164008/-/c1i6ojz/-/index.html

    Yes, that’s right – trying to trick people who cannot be fooled leads only to their taking a ‘tougher line’.

  • WakefulUgandan

    Sorry Richard.

    We do not believe that sexual orientation is a legitimate construct of human sexuality.

    We believe Male and Female are self-evident realities not abstract figments of the mind.

    Therefore, we shall not legalize ANAL SEX in Uganda.

    That’s all you want but wish not granted. Maybe all you sophisticated folks in the U.K think ANAL SEX is something to be cherished and harangue entire Nations about… we DO NOT.

    Sorry to all of you ANAL SEX advocates, leave our country ALONE. Look for another cause…

  • Richard Willmer

    I have said all I need to say, WUG.

  • WakefulUgandan

    Uhm Richard, you could start with the 250,000+ paedophiles in the U.K many of home like to “relish” young boys.

    Good that you have endlessly assured us that you are not one of them.

    We need to see form some kind of campaign among all of your group that like to have anal sex and do some self-supervision to make sure you are not doing any more damage to minors in the UNITED kingdom.

  • Richard Willmer

    Let’s try again, shall we, WUG? Talk about trying to use endless words to dodge the issue!

    By your reckoning, 95% of gay men are not paedophiles (if pushed, I’d set the percentage higher than 95, of course). You are (we are pleased to see) no longer contesting the fact that Bahati wants to see all gay men and lesbians either imprisoned for life or dangling on the end of a rope, regardless of whether they are paedophiles, rapists, robbers, murderers … etc.. Yet you still insist on supporting the Bahati Bill.

    Your position is illogical and untenable. No sane and civilised person, Ugandan or otherwise, is fooled by it.

  • Richard Willmer

    Let me put it this way, WUG.

    What Bahati (and you?) are saying is the equivalent to something like this:-

    1. Some people (a small percentage) in [ethnic/national/cultural group] sacrifice children

    therefore

    2. [members of an ethnic/national/cultural group] have a predisposition to conducting child sacrifice

    therefore

    3. all [members of an ethnic/national/cultural group] should be imprisoned or killed.

    Complete nonsense, of course – but what Bahati (and you?) are saying the equivalent of this nonsense.

    Do you see the point?

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 18, 2011 at 3:28 am

    “If you think I have outlined a research that possessed limitations spell out those limitations to me.”

    The real issue isn’t the limitations in the research, it is your misuse of the research to make claims it doesn’t support.

    For example you made the statement:

    “Homosexuals have serious mental issues as the removal of homosexuality from the DSM was never based on scientific evidence – FACT”

    Then cited an opinion piece by Charles Socarides, which a) never made the claim you did and b) left out a significant amount of information regarding the removal of homosexuality from the DSM

    Further you claimed:

    “Positive correlation between pederasty & homosexuality has been statistically tested and found +ve – FACT”

    and cited facts about how MEN in general are more likely to molest children than woman, but nothing about gay men being more likely than straight men. Further when Richard cited an researcher (Herek) debunking the statement you made, you simply launched a baseless personal attack on Herek rather than address any of the research cited.

    In general your posts indicate that you haven’t really done any research into the topic of sexual orientation, but rather have gone to websites that share your personal biases and use there carefully edited (and misrepresented) citations to bolster your own prejudices about gays.

  • WakefulUgandan

    @ Ken, it is not my problem if you are fixated on the idea that I am “prejudiced”…. I can say the same of you. You are all prejudiced against our Nation for the simple reason that we will not legalize ANAL SEX. You wish for people to do this unimpeded no matter the amount of risk involved in doing. To that Uganda says NO.

    Moreover, it is hilarious that you cite things in your favour (like Herek’s critiques and by the way I think Herek is a gay man likely following the Kinsey approach of activism through the social sciences) and I shouldn’t. You can’t fault for me for choosing science research that is reasonable & which you have failed to dispute on its merits other than my use of its conclusions which you have not proven not to be in line with my train of thought.

    I wonder why you do not shoot at your own for parroting things like these (http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html) that also support their position.

    How come you have not, yourself, quoted here the same research that I did?

    You only want to tell half the story but when I put mine here, then we have the full story.

    That’s how a proper representation of the whole matter is supposed to be.

    Homosexuals have serious mental issues as the removal of homosexuality from the DSM was never based on scientific evidence – FACT

    You get me a scientific evidence for that & we shall discuss it back and forth to see its merits and see whether it was done for science or as a scape goat for the eventual vote.

    And not forgetting the intimidation and the threats that cowed those within the APA who objected to the removal from the DSM. It is a pity all of you several years later can attempt to do a revisionism of history fortunately more honourable men have left some notes for posterity.

    Intimidation & threats have been a core element of the homosexual cart from the start and that is why you suppose you will intimidate our Nation into back-tracking from measures that preclude the practice of ANAL SEX. Like MaaziNCO says, we are not libertine & if anything goes in your culture that is up to you.

    Positive correlation between pederasty & homosexuality has been statistically tested and found +ve – FACT

    Did you see this below or you are pretending you did not?

    Ah you tempt me with your feeble protestations ha ha ha

    HOWEVER, let us, for a moment, assume for the sake of argument that they are correct, and that 19 out of 20 gay men are not ‘paedophiles’. Why then does Bahati want to kill all gay people, including lesbians (who appear, at least from UK statistics, to be the least likely to molest children).—Richard Willmer

    Part 1

    Okay let me spin it up also. 1 in 490 heterosexual men are likely to be paedophiles compared to 1 in 20 homosexual men. Since the ratio is 1:1 we do a quick division it follows that it is 24.5 times more likely that a homosexual man will be a paedophile!

    So for every 19 homosexuals that supposedly are not paedophiles, there are 489 heterosexual men who are not paedophiles. Once again divide 489/19 = 26 (rounded to the top). Okay what does that mean?

    Heterosexual men are 26 times more unlikely to be paedophiles.

    Okay compare the stats:

    For every 24.5 times homosexual men are likely to be paedophiles, it is 26 times likely that heterosexuals won’t be paedophiles.

    For a population group that makes up on 1-3 percent of the entire population, that is “heroic” —- grrr thumbs down!!

    [Psychological Reports, 1986, 58, pp. 327-37]

    Again Uganda says, no to ANAL SEX. No to the Sewer line.

  • WakefulUgandan

    In the bquote above I have included the source in full.

    Uhm and I had also wondered, how come all the molestation cases in the catholic church involved altar boys?

    Why didn’t these priests prey on young girls?

    Answer very simple: they were homosexual and all they wanted was ANAL SEX nothing different!

  • WakefulUgandan

    Richard Willmer# ~ May 18, 2011 at 7:26 am

    Let’s try again, shall we, WUG? Talk about trying to use endless words to dodge the issue!

    By your reckoning, 95% of gay men are not paedophiles (if pushed, I’d set the percentage higher than 95, of course).

    RICHARD IF YOU CAN LIE HERE BY PURPORTING ME TO HAVE SAID THINGS, WHAT LIES DO YOU THINK YOUR ANAL SEX ADVOCATES ARE FEEDING YOU WITH?

    YOUR CAUSE THRIVES ON DUPLICITOUS MISREPRESENTATION AND FALSE ATTRIBUTION OF THINGS TO PEOPLE WHICH THEY HAVE NOT SAID AND THAT ABOVE PROVES IT WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT YOU ARE NOT HONEST PEOPLE; YOU ARE HEDONISTS WHO WILL TAKE A HIGH OUT OF THIS FEELING THAT THE WORLD AFFIRMS YOUR PROCLIVITIES FOR, I WILL SAY IT AGAIN, ANAL SEX!

  • WakefulUgandan

    **WHAT LIES DO YOU THINK YOUR ANAL SEX ADVOCATES ARE FEEDING YOU WITH FROM UGANDA?

    ## THE OTHER DAY I SAW A DOCUMENTARY OF SOME HOMOSEXUAL MAN WHO WAS TELLING HIS BRITISH INTERVIEWER THAT HIS LIFE WAS IN DANGER… BUT HE WAS SAFELY RESIDENT IN HIS SLUM WHERE HE’D BEEN FOR YEARS AND NO ONE HAD EVER ATTACKED HIM! BUT GUESS WHAT HE IS TIRED OF THE SLUM AND IF ANAL SEX CAN GET HIM OUT HE WILL USE IT.

    DISINFORMATION, MISINFORMATION, REVISIONISM, ETC THOSE ARE YOUR TOOLS OF TRADE AND THE 95% YOU ATTRIBUTE TO ME IS BUT JUST A LITTLE SNIPPET INTO THE UNTRUTHS THAT PERVADE THE WORLD WHERE ANAL SEX ADVOCATES OPERATE.

  • http://wthrockmorton.com Warren

    Wakeful – stop using caps

  • WakefulUgandan

    PUTTING THE SPIN TO THE 1/20 JUST WON’T WORK BECAUSE THE OTHER SIDE 1/490 IS A GLARING CHASM!

  • WakefulUgandan

    Sorry just saw your order Warren. Noted. Will bold instead next time.

  • Richard Willmer

    You’re still missing the key point, WUg.

    The key point is this: if only 5% (or 2%, or whatever) of gay men are paedophiles, why does Bahati want a law designed to (possibly) kill 100% of gay men (and all lesbians as well).

    People should not be imprisoned or killed because there is a small percentage chance that they might commit a crime. They should be punished only if they actually do commit a crime. That’s the point – and you appear not to understand it, despite anything I have written.

    I must also say that I personally object to people using pseudonyms unless they need to do so for e.g. their own safety. I take the view that you are lucky that Warren still allows you to comment at all; if this were my blog, I would certainly have blocked you by now.

  • WakefulUgandan

    Richard I think you have pseudonym-phobia and that is not my problem.

    I think you would do well to bring the door down on countries like Saudi Arabia but the cowardly nature of your enterprise seeks to torture the weak nations of this world.

    We have decided to forestall the incremental advances of the homosexual movement by increasing the opportunity cost of anal sex.

    Ugandans are a warm, compassionate and tolerant nation and those who have been to Uganda know it very well. That is capture in the AHB beautifully here:

    Protection, assistance and payment of compensation to victims of homosexuality.

    (1 ) A victim of homosexuality shall not be penalized for any crime commuted as a direct result

    of his or her involvement in homosexuality.

    (2) A victim of homosexuality shall be assisted to enable his or her views and concerns to be

    presented and considered at the appropriate stages of the criminal proceedings.

    (3) Where a person is convicted of homosexuality or aggravated homosexuality under sections 2

    and 3 of this Act, the court may, in addition to any sentence imposed on the offender, order that

    the victim of the offence be paid compensation by the offender for any physical, sexual or

    psychological harm caused to the victim by the offence.

    (4) The amount of compensation shall be determined by the court and the court shall take into

    account the extent of harm suffered by the victim of the offence. the degree of force used by the

    offender and medical and other expenses incurred by the victim as a result of the offence.

    6. Confidentiality.

    (1) At any stage of the Investigation or trial of an offence under this Act, law enforcement

    officers, prosecutors, judicial officers and medical practitioners, as well as parties to the case,

    shall recognize the right to privacy of the victim.

    etc, etc

  • Richard Willmer

    A very selective quote, WUg! But again then is a problem with you ‘reasoning’: if who two people are in a consensual relationship, which one is the ‘victim’? Think about it.

    I know many Ugandans, and like them enormously. It seems also that they like me.

    I’ve dealt with the point you make re. Saudi Arabia etc. in an exchange with ‘Mazzi NCO’. At this point, I would reiterate that SA is not proposing new laws designed to promote slaughter. David Bahati is promoting new ways to sanction murder by the state.

    Now how about you giving a reasoned response to the point I made above (i.e. why kill everyone in a ‘group’ because a small percentage of those in the group commit a crime?)?

  • Richard Willmer

    A very selective quote, WUg! But again then is a problem with the ‘reasoning’ here: if two people are in a consensual relationship, which one is the ‘victim’ (the answer is probably: ‘whichever one paid the police more’!)? Think about it!

    I know many Ugandans, and like them enormously. It seems also that they like me.

    I’ve dealt with the point you make re. Saudi Arabia etc. in an exchange with ‘Maazi NCO’. At this point, I would reiterate that SA is not proposing new laws designed to promote slaughter. David Bahati is promoting new ways to sanction murder by the state.

    Now how about you giving a reasoned response to the point I made above (i.e. why kill everyone in a ‘group’ because a small percentage of those in the group commit a crime?)?

  • WakefulUgandan

    Now going onto the 5% you are really trying to milk, let’s use a hypothetical figure of 10000 men, Britons say.

    If 3% of them are gay that will mean 300 men including Wilmer like to have anal sex ok?

    Now that leaves us with 9700 men who do their thing straight.

    So the probability that there will be a paedophile is 1/20 so of the 300 homosexual men 15 are paedophiles.

    The probability that there will be a paedophile in the 9700 is 1/490 so that means 20 (rounded off) heterosexual men are paedophiles.

    So the total number of paedophiles is 35 men (both heterosexual and homosexual). Ok?

    So let’s find out the ratios and see what that means so 15: 20 give us 3:4

    which is 1:1.3 which is really 1:1

    So that means even when they comprise only 3 % of the population, homosexuals still match the number of paedophiles produced by the larger population of 97 %.

    That is like saying if human beings were portions and paedophiles are poisons, 3 tea spoonfuls of homosexuality are as poisonous as 97 tea spoonfuls of heterosexuality.

    That means, homosexuality is 32 times more destructive as a manifestation of paedophilia as heterosexuality.

    Now you tell me if you want more homosexuality or less heterosexuality in a community with children.

    Not mentioning the proportion of STDs that all the 3 % are responsible for.

    In Uganda no one is going about looking at some body with a long nose or short nose and then calling them gay. No. Uganda is saying there is no way to expressly know that you are gay until you engage in Anal Sex. We have prudently assessed the statistics and looked through the research and picked apart the politicking and come to the conclusion that homosexuality (the desire to use the anus in the same way as a vagina) is a self-evident psychopathology. We have refused to embrace studies that are funded by gay-money to push the gay cart and instead opted to endorse studies that are disinterested in the politicking.

    Fortunately, they support our view that anal sex is self-evidently an aberration and a shameful blot on our identity and courage as a nation. To that effect we have chosen to institute legislation that will preclude the free operation of a group of deviants which has potential to be 32 times as destructive to our children as the destructive deviants we are dealing with already.

    For this reason, Uganda has increased the opportunity cost for Anal Sex I repeat.

  • Richard Willmer

    You’re still completely missing the point, WUg.

    People should be punished only because they have committed a crime, not because there is a small chance (0.1% or 0.5% or 2% or 5% or whatever) that they might commit a crime.

  • WakefulUgandan

    As to the definition of Aggravated Homosexuality I think this part puts context to Aggravated so clearly (see below):

    Where a person is convicted of homosexuality or aggravated homosexuality under sections 2

    and 3 of this Act, the court may, in addition to any sentence imposed on the offender, order that

    the victim of the offence be paid compensation by the offender for any physical, sexual or

    psychological harm caused to the victim by the offence.

    Keyword – Harm!

  • WakefulUgandan

    People should be punished only because they have committed a crime, not because there is a small chance (0.1% or 0.5% or 2% or 5% or whatever) that they might commit a crime.

    ——-

    Richard don’t you try to water down the Dangers of homosexuality. Apart from paedophilia we have a STDs for example plus we don’t want you recruiting our young men luring them with financial gifts like you have been trying to do in Makerere but fortunately we are soon totally breaking that scheme apart thanks to diligent work by intelligence.

    Besides Anal Sex is a crime in Uganda and it is punishable!

    The data shows homosexuality is a destructive lifestyle that is harmful to any Nation.

  • Richard Willmer

    You forget what Clause 3 actually defines as ‘aggravated homosexuality’, WUg.

    I won’t post the full text of Clause 3 here, as Warren has done so on numerous occasions.

    It’s no good, WUg – the provisions of the Bill are clear, and no amount of sophistry on your part will convince anyone who can read.

    (Note also that the segment you cite relates to a financial penalty that is in addition to imprisonment of death. In other words, if the court cites ‘harm’, the defendent woulf have to pay a fine before being imprisoned or hanged. Presumably, the Bill is intended to ‘reach out in compassion’ to the defendent’s bank account as well as to the defendent him/herself! LOL!)

  • WakefulUgandan

    Richard Willmer# ~ May 18, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    LOL!

    I am flattered that you have heard a laugh however wrongly sourced. You seem to be a man full of fears, self-doubt, bitterness and acidic fire. Given the documented medicinal attributes of laughter, I am glad you are having some of it. I am sure it takes you closer to wholesomeness and probably one day you will choose to stop viewing the anus as a source of pleasure and let it rightfully do its purpose as the sewerage management entity in human anatomy.

    Coming back to the present, Anal Sex remains a punishable crime in the republic of Uganda and homosexuality (the desire to use the anus as a vagina) is widely condemned and disdained in our country.

  • Maazi NCO

    I personally object to people using pseudonyms unless they need to do so for e.g. their own safety.

    While not joining the fray between my countryman and yourself, may I kindly weigh in on the matter of the pseudonym. Speaking for myself, I have no fears about safety or anything, unlike many of my compatriots, I have lived in the West—the United Kingdom and the United States to be exact. I know firsthand how powerful the euro-american gay lobbies are and how sophisticated they are in telling lies and using blogs and mainstream media to dessiminate their propaganda. Many Ugandans–including Bahati—were shocked at the ability of western gay sex practitioners to mobilise their governments to wage war on their behalf. I wasn’t shocked or suprised. In many EU nations, speaking against gayism can earn you censure, a sack from a job or even imprisonment for so-called “hate speech” like the evangelical pastor who was arrested for condemning gayism in a church sermon in Sweden.

    The academic study of gayism in the West has since become part-political and part-scientific because the easiest way to ruin your professional career as a scientist is to produce credible research which goes against the received wisdom of the euro-american gay lobbies. Most credible scientists who study sexuality have chosen “safer areas” of research to explore and have largely restricted themselves to simply peer-reviewing the work of radical pan-sexualist “researchers”, issuing statements such as “gay gene discovery is false”, “methodolgy of the twins study is not correct”, “there is no conclusive evidence that gayism is in-born”, etc. Most academics who want to keep their university tenures or avoid the door-stepping gay lobbyists or remain employable in mainstream research institutes will not dare publish results which contradict the wisdom of the lobbyists and their “human rights” allies.

    This sort of suffocating climate I found in the West is something I am determined will NEVER be replicated here in Uganda in the distant future. I am sure all Ugandans have learned a lot from the mass self-rightous outrage expressed by Westerners over our wish to restrict gayism. Of course, there would be claims that the outrage was because of the death penalty and other extreme provisions in the bill . But I know for a fact that even if that bill was restricted to punishing anyone who advocates for gay rights with a prison sentence with option of paying a fine, there still would have been the same pirahana-like outburst from liberal westerners. The Republic of Lithuania —where gayism is legal —was similarly attacked for merely wanting to pass legislation to prevent the promotion of gayism outside the privacy of the bedroom.

    Coming back to the issue of pseudonym, I am not going to provide a name because I need to work closely with like-minded individuals without our email accounts being spammed with rubbish propaganda from mad westerners and nonsense lies being peddled by an equally mad set of reporters in the pro-gay western media.

  • Richard Willmer

    Blah blah blah! @ ‘Maazi NCO’ and ‘WUg’.

  • Maazi NCO

    Meanwhile, I will continue monitoring the “colourful” exchange between my compatriot Wakeful Ugandan and “my friend” Richard Willmer (is that really your name?). Warren, I am surprised you are not joining the fray. Do I detect reticence on your part?…..

  • Maazi NCO

    Blah blah blah!.

    Richard,

    That is very interesting. I learnt a lot from your statement above (albeit with difficulties). It would be preferable if you stopped trying to communicate in the Willmer Code because the “blah,blah, blah…” has no proper structure. Please try Morse Code which I can understand perfectly because of XXXXXXXXXXX

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 18, 2011 at 11:00 am

    “@ Ken, it is not my problem if you are fixated on the idea that I am “prejudiced”…. I can say the same of you. You are all prejudiced against our Nation for the simple reason that we will not legalize ANAL SEX.”

    You can say what ever you like, that doesn’t make it true. For example I’m not prejudiced against Uganda. I’ve haven’t even mentioned it here. This is just another false, unsubstantiated accusation you have made.

    whereas my comments about you are based on your own specific statements. For example, you continuous attempt to equate homosexuality with anal intercourse, shows you know little about same-sex relationships.

    “You get me a scientific evidence for that & we shall discuss it back and forth to see its merits and see whether it was done for science or as a scape goat for the eventual vote.”

    I already mentioned the work of Dr. Evelyn Hooker, the most famous was “The adjustment of the male overt homosexual,” Journal of Projective Techniques, vol. 21 (1957), pp. 18-31.

    The “NIMH Task for Report on Homosexuality” contains a bibliography of hers and other research on sexual orientation. The task force report was originally release in 1969, but the final report wasn’t published until 1972. The report recommended a “Center for the Study of Sexual behavior” be established. That didn’t happen but as I recall there were some other NIMH grants to study homosexuality . However, it was Dr. Hooker’s 1957 work that is considered (correctly in my opinion) to be the catalyst for the eventual change understanding about homosexuality and sexual orientation in general.

    “And not forgetting the intimidation and the threats that cowed those within the APA who objected to the removal from the DSM. ”

    who, specifically, was intimidated in the APA? What is your source for this claim?

    and yes, I saw your claim about 1 in 20 homosexuals being child molesters. However, I still haven’t seen you give a source for that. You say “Psychological Reports” 1986, but you give no title or author or any other way of verifying what you said was in the study. Further, I suspect you didn’t actually read the original article did you? Rather you got it off of some other unnamed web site.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ ‘Maazi NCO’ (which we know is not your proper name, as you have admitted as much)

    ‘WUg’s’ contributions have indeed been colourful, even graphic! They have also been shot through with sophistry and factual error. My contributions have been truthful (as far as I know – neither you nor ‘WUg’ have not been able to demonstrate otherwise, please note); at times, they have, I admit, been ‘vigorous’ and ‘sharp’, but then we are dealing with topic that concerns threats to the lives of innocent Ugandans.

    As for my real name: well, you can believe what you like!

  • http://wthrockmorton.com Warren

    Maazi – No reticence, rather been about other business. Now that I read what is being written, I think it is kind of pointless. Wakeful thinks he knows something about a subject but is only interested in supporting his biases. Richard and Ken are trying nobly but I don’t think it is going to come to much.

  • WakefulUgandan

    @ Ken

    and yes, I saw your claim about 1 in 20 homosexuals being child molesters. However, I still haven’t seen you give a source for that. You say “Psychological Reports” 1986, but you give no title or author or any other way of verifying what you said was in the study. Further, I suspect you didn’t actually read the original article did you? Rather you got it off of some other unnamed web site.

    Cameron P., Proctor K., Coburn W., Forde.N, Larson H., Cameron K. (1986). Child Molestation and Homesexuality. Psychological Reports, 1986, 58, pp. 327-37

    Satisfied?

    For example, you continuous attempt to equate homosexuality with anal intercourse, shows you know little about same-sex relationships.

    I know about men being just friends with their buddies. The single differentiating score for homosexual “relationships” is the sexual attraction as expressed in the desire to achieve pleasure by the usage of the anus as an artifice for pleasure otherwise homosexuality would just be friendship BUT for the anal sex…

    who, specifically, was intimidated in the APA? What is your source for this claim?

    Ok. You will know by now that Homosexuality had been considered a mental disorder for more than 20 years before ’73 by the APA’s DSM. But starting 1970 homosexual activists starting interrupting APA conventions. San Francisco first in ’70, then Washington in ’71 and also in ’72.

    The News:

    “But even more than the government, it is the psychiatrists who have experienced the full rage of the homosexual activists. Over the past two years, [1970-71] gay-lib organizations have repeatedly disrupted medical meetings, and three months ago—in the movement’s most aggressive demonstration so far—a group of 30 homosexual militant activists broke into a meeting of the American Psychiatric Association in Washington, where they turned the staid proceedings into near chaos for twenty minutes. ‘We are here to denounce your authority to call us sick or mentally disordered,” shouted the group’s leader, Dr. Franklin Kameny, while the 2,000 shocked psychiatrists looked on in disbelief. ‘For us, as homosexuals, your profession is the enemy incarnate. We demand that psychiatrists treat us as human beings, not as patients to be cured! Psychiatry has waged a relentless war of extermination against us…We’re rejecting you all as our owners. You may take this as our declaration of war!’” (Newsweek, 1971)

    Bayer, a gay sympathizer, writes : “Using forged credentials, gay activists gained access to the exhibit area and, coming across a display marketing aversive conditioning [i.e., punishing an organism whenever it makes a particular response] techniques for the treatment of homosexuals, demanded its removal. Threats were made against the exhibitor, who was told that unless his booth was dismantled, it would be torn down. After frantic behind-the-scenes consultations, and in an effort to avoid violence, the convention leadership agreed to have the booth removed” [R. Bayer, Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnoses. (New York: Basic Books, 1981), p.105-6.]

    Bayer adds, “Instead of being engaged in a sober consideration of data, psychiatrists were swept up in a political controversy. The American Psychiatric Association had fallen victim to the disorder of a tumultuous era, when disruptive conflicts threatened to politicize every aspect of American social life. A furious egalitarianism that challenged every instance of authority had compelled psychiatric experts to negotiate the pathological status of homosexuality with homosexuals themselves. The result was not a conclusion based on an approximation of the scientific truth as dictated by reason, but was instead an action demanded by the ideological temper of the times” [R. Bayer, Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnoses. (New York: Basic Books, 1981), p.102.]

    The history is available for all who are willing to see the wanton intimidation and threats that characterized the removal of this mental disorder from the DSM.

    I already mentioned the work of Dr. Evelyn Hooker, the most famous was “The adjustment of the male overt homosexual,” Journal of Projective Techniques, vol. 21 (1957), pp. 18-31

    Now that you bring Evelyn’s Research, the question begs, was it scientific?

    Let’s see about that:

    1. Her sample (was it homogeneous or biased?)

    a. She recruited Mattachine society members (a gay group) who in turn recruited other homosexuals, who were aware of her intentions, and thus easily identified the kind of homosexuals who would fit the description “normal” just like Kinsey had done…

    b. She had only 60 subjects who were not randomly selected. And she admitted as much, in her report, that her sole aim was to find a single homosexual “without” pathological traits in order to disprove that homosexuality is a symptom of pathology! This immediately alludes to the limitation of the study as a conclusive especially in light of the inherent bias among the homosexuals studied (not to forget Hookers friendship with homosexuals upon whose urging she did the study). It was at the urging of Sam From (a homosexual) that she undertook this study. He said, “Now we have let you see us as we are, it is your scientific duty to do a study of people like us.” (Bruce Shenitz, “The Grande Dame of Gay Liberation,” Los Angeles Times Magazine, June 10, 1990, pp.20-34 )

    Hooker, herself, notes that she could not conclude whether the sexual activities of homosexuals are not pathological in nature.

    Further to that her results suffer from the Rosenthal effect since her gay cohorts knew very well what she wanted and gave it to her true to projective techniques lol.

    When it came to the other tests (MAPS and TAT), the homosexual subjects did not display the ability to control their homosexual fantasies and compulsively indulged in narrating them…

    In relation to this Hooker said that pathology of homosexuality may only occur in an erotic situation and that the homosexual can function well in non-erotic situations such as the Rorschach, TAT, and MAPS. Thus, it could be argued that homosexuality is symptomatic of pathology, but that the pathology is confined to one sector of behavior, namely, the erotic. But the tests were administered in a non-erotic set-up so she inadvertently admitted homosexuality is a pathology– but that was the fine print. In addition, Hooker herself offered, “the psychological defect of homosexuals may lie in a weakness of ego-function and control and that this cannot be adequately diagnosed from projective test protocols.”

    About the subjects’ histories she should have released to us what she had found out about how long they held down relationships and how many partners they had but she could only comment, “the life history data from the two groups will differ: namely, in the love relationships. Comparisons between the number and duration of love relationships, cruising patterns, and degree of satisfaction with sexual pattern and the love partner will certainly show clear-cut differences.”

    This has been offered by other research as I showed above already. Let me repeat here:

    70% of homosexuals admitting to having sex only one time with over 50% of their partners (Bell, A. and Weinberg, M. Homosexualities: a Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978.)

    -The average homosexual has between 20 and 106 partners per year (Corey, L. and Holmes, K. “Sexual Transmission of Hepatitis A in Homosexual Men.” New England J. Med., 1980, pp. 435-38. ).

    I say that is a sign of pathology!

    Hookers “findings” have been deliberately misquoted and politicized to push the homosexual cart but the substantive analysis shows Hooker never showed that Homosexuality is not a pathology. It was impossible with her sample and bias which compromised her methods. This study has been long discredited! 30 homosexuals from a sample of 60 respondents cannot possibly determine the course of destiny for more than 6 billion people on earth! It is ridiculous!

    It is telling that 5 years after the APA vote, psychiatrists still considered homosexuality a pathology.

    Time magazine summarized the results of its poll: “Of those answering, 69% said they believed ‘homosexuality is usually a pathological adaptation, as opposed to a normal variation,’ 18% disagreed and 13% were uncertain. Similarly, sizable majorities said that homosexuals are generally less happy than heterosexuals (73%) and less capable of mature, loving relationships (60%). A total of 70% said that homosexuals’ problems have more to do with their own inner conflicts than with stigmatization by society at large.”

    (“Sick Again? Psychiatrists Vote on Gays,” Time, 20 February 1978, 102.)

    Thus, homosexuals have always been a danger to themselves before anything else. The addition and legalization of homosexuality usually merely compounds the problem.

  • WakefulUgandan

    MaaziNCO well done ;-)

    I think am done here. I think all the anal sex advocates know by now we are not going to let them into our country.

    Btw Warren are you a homosexual?

  • Maazi NCO

    My contributions have been truthful (as far as I know – neither you nor ‘WUg’ have not been able to demonstrate otherwise, please note)

    Richard,

    I think many people will take issue with your comment about being “truthful” and Wakeful Ugandan has made statements which you and your friend Ken have not being able to challenge successfully.

    Wakeful thinks he knows something about a subject but is only interested in supporting his biases

    Warren,

    Ken and Richard are presenting patchwork of papers which support their own biases. Anyway, the most important realities that informs my own convictions and that of many Ugandans are the following:

    (A) There is no CREDIBLE scientific evidence that gayism is genetic, in-born or even immutable. It is not enough to release “scientific” papers claiming that gayism feels normal for some people and that certain parts of their brains respond to certain feelings. Of course certain parts of our brains respond to both learned and instinctive behaviour. So what?

    (B) Persons who engage in sodomy are predominantly gay sex practitioners and they face incredible health challenges that people who engage in normal “man-to-woman” sexual relations do not face. From a public health perspective, Uganda is not willing to spend its meagre resources on strange sexual diseases that can simply be avoided or at least minimized by discouraging gayism. I say this regardless of the false propaganda that decriminalization of gayism will suddenly improve the tackling of HIV/AIDS since most gay sex practitioners will suddenly come out in the open to receive medicare which Uganda may not even be able to afford.

    ( C ) In the long term, gayism will eventually subvert our traditional and cultural system by super-imposing distorted institutions such as same-sex marriage and gay adoption rights in the name of “pan-sexual equality”. This has already happened in South Africa where the legalization of gay sex in 1994 spawned a gay movement that eventually compelled the South African goverment to reluctantly institute same-sex marriages in 2005 and enact other ridiculous European-style pro-gay laws thereafter.

    (D) In their life time, most adult Ugandans do not want to witness their children engaging in gay pride marches on the streets of Kampala or getting married to a person of the same sex. Yes, we are well aware that the struggle today is for decriminalization of gay sex in the name of “privacy of the bedroom”. But tommorrow, it will evolve from “privacy of the bedroom” to going out to the streets for gay pride marches and campaigning for same-sex marriages and gay adoption rights in the name of “equality for all” .

    (E) For all the reasons mentioned from (A) to (D), gayism will never be legalized in Uganda and while some of us are still alive, we need to ensure that the legal framework is modernized to meet the challenges posed by foreign gay sex lobbies and their domestic agents in Uganda.

  • Richard Willmer

    Whoops! I’ve just noticed a ‘stray negative’. I meant to say that neither ‘Maazi NCO’ nor ‘WUg’ have been able to demonstrate that I have not been truthful.

    As I have already admitted, I have not always been courteous; I would have been rather more courteous if the aforementioned interlocutors of mine had used their real names, so I make no apology for any discourtesy shown to them thus far.

    I am no expert on the matter of child sexual abuse and the true reasons for this horrible phenomenon. As far as general issues of human sexuality are concerned: I have a fairly comprehensive ‘lay person’s’ knowledge. With regard to the particular issue of the Bahati Bill: I would see myself as something of an expert; those whom I have briefed on this issue (in, for example, the UK Ministry of Foreign Affairs) seem to take a similar view, as far as I can tell. My politcal antennae are pretty efficient; the contents of assessments – based on things I have seen on the internet in the course of my research, and/or on the words of supporters of the Bill with whom I have engaged in dialogue – sent to the FCO have, almost without exception, been confirmed – often subsequently – by the British High Commission in Kampala.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    You claim I have been untruthful. Very well; feel free to do the following:-

    1. identify specific things I have said that are not truthful;

    2. for each instance of untruthfulness you cite, explain why it is not truthful, giving evidence to support your explanation.

    I will then respond appropriately.

    If you choose to take up this offer, then I suggest that you number your points (keeping them brief and, if you are capable of so doing, to the point); I will then (using your numebring system)

    EITHER

    1. refute your claim of untruthfulness (if your claim is self-evidently invalid), citing evidence as appropriate

    OR

    2. explain why I might have been labouring under a misapprehension (if your claim is valid),

    OR

    3. make clear that what I was saying was a ‘contention’ (or question) rather than something that I was claiming to be a ‘statement of fact’.

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    @ ‘WUg’

    Thank you and good evening.

  • Maazi NCO

    My politcal antennae are pretty efficient; the contents of assessments – based on things I have seen on the internet in the course of my research, and/or on the words of supporters of the Bill with whom I have engaged in dialogue – sent to the FCO have, almost without exception, been confirmed – often subsequently – by the British High Commission in Kampala.

    Congratulations for having a great political antennae. However, the question you have never asked yourself is how sustainable would it be for Her Majesty’s government to use the executive branch of the Ugandan government as a kind of buffer against the popular demands made by the Ugandan people as represented by their MPs? More importantly, have the Foreign and Commonwealth Office had the courage to admit to you that realpolitik will limit their actions when push comes to shove?

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 18, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    “I think am done here.”

    So you aren’t going to answer my question about the source(s) of your quotes and other claims?

  • Maazi NCO

    Btw Warren are you a homosexual?

    Wakeful Ugandan, you may be surprised to know that Warren was once into the american ex-gay movement gig before he defected to the winning pro-gay side of the US cultural civil war. The man sure knows when to abandon a sinking boat !! Because of his earlier ex-gay gigs , I strongly doubt that Warren is himself a gay sex practitioner. Most definitely, Richard, Anteros, Timothy and Ken are the ones who are gay sex practitioners on this forum.

  • http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com Timothy Kincaid

    “gay sex practitioner”

    Goodness, you make it seem so professional.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi’

    Are you going to take up my invitation to challenge the truthfulness of things I have said on this blog? Or did I ‘call your bluff’?

    (I understand your [implied] point about realpolitik; but may I remind you that it is not only Britain that is subject to its limitations? The British national interest is not well served by the apparent deteriorating human rights situation in Uganda.)

  • Richard Willmer

    Perhaps I should, at this point, make absolutely clear that I would consider it deeply regrettable if it were ever deemed ‘necessary’ to apply sanctions, whether on account of the Bahati Bill, or because of other human rights concerns. After all, I have several friends* in Uganda, and they could suffer from things like further rises in prices as a result.

    * My personal friends in UG are not (as far as I know) ‘gay sex practitioners’ (to use your happy phrase), so no need to get all excited, ‘Maazi’!

  • http://www.wthrockmorton.com Warren

    @Timothy – If one gets a certification in GSP, then the designation CGSP after one’s name would be appropriate. I suppose, as in some states for therapists, eventually licensing might be required, leading to the LGSP designation. With extra training and experience, one could become a Diplomate of the Academy of Gay Sex Practitioners (DAGSP). Probably that would be the top of the line, right there.

  • http://www.wthrockmorton.com Warren

    ken – I asked too about the sources of his quotes. He apparently does not want to tell us about the NARTH website.

    You know, as an aside, I need to point out that the studies quoted by WUg and for that matter Bahati and Langa are done by American authors. Now how does that work? Ugandan supporters of the AHB say they don’t need Americans to give them ideas about gays, but the research quoted is imported from American sources.

    If not for Paul Cameron, Scott Lively and NARTH, there would be no sources for AHB supporters to quote.

  • WakefulUgandan

    If not for Paul Cameron, Scott Lively and NARTH, there would be no sources for AHB supporters to quote.

    And if it weren’t for Hooker, Herek, Hammer, Kinsey, et al you, Warren, and your “honourable” DAGSPs here would have nothing to reference.

    Fortunately, we have history, peer review & common sense to remind us all these “researchers” were either from the ilk of despicable libertine sadomasochistic perverts (who would would hang by their testes to get another high) or sympathizers of their Anal-sexcapades…

    The legalization of sodomy has not brought any good. Instead it has brought dissension, disorder in culturally accepted societal norms, diseases, suicide & unhappiness (the irony of being called gay)

    And you can find a litany of cases, like MAAZINCO so lucidly put, where a bunch of deviants are manipulating the political system to load it over others (assuming some kind of superiority) even when are in the wrong as this Telegraph story shows (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1564959/Firemen-reprimanded-for-disturbing-gay-sex-act.html). I hope Willmer is not the man in question. You see he seems to be the whining type who goes around “reporting on” Uganda to the Foreign Office.

    I think in the gay sex “practitioning” I think he is the “woman”…

    Is that true Willmer? Do you allow another man to get pleasure from your an***?

    And Ken seems to be the one who sits back and tries to be Socrates. Ken if you met Wilmer, would you derive pleasure from his an***?

    And perhaps like Kinsey, Warren would be on stand by to time the orgasms and then present us with some “scientific” findings.

    And I have heard about this fisting thing. Do you guys feast on it?

    There is an article which says, “Repeated fisting may result in permanent damage…” (http://gaylife.about.com/od/gaysexadvice/ht/gayfisting.htm)

    I guess you don’t care you super-achievers…hmm? It’s all about the DAGSP!

    Uganda continues to say no to Anal Sex!

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WUg

    Two questions for you:-

    1. What do you mean by the term ‘sodomy’?

    2. If there were lies being told about, and hatred directed being directed at, you, would you feel at all unhappy, worried or depressed?

    (Anyway, I thought you’d gone.)

  • WakefulUgandan

    Richard Willmer# ~ May 19, 2011 at 2:39 am

    @ WUg

    Two questions for you:-

    1. What do you mean by the term ‘sodomy’?

    2. If there were lies being told about, and hatred directed being directed at, you, would you feel at all unhappy, worried or depressed?

    (Anyway, I thought you’d gone.)

    Answers:

    1. Sodomy = Anal Sex. Further reading here to get a real world example.

    2. If lies were being told about me and hatred directed at me, as Warren did to Martin Ssempa, concerning the matter of legalizing anal sex in Uganda, I wouldn’t fret at all because I know the gay agenda has thrived on intimidation, threats & blackmail & there are tools available to me to deal with that.

    (Yes, I am gone now. You can sigh with relief…)

  • Richard Willmer

    @ WUg

    1. I suggest you read the story of Sodom & Gomorrah.

    2. I don’t recall Warren threatening Ssempa. Perhaps you would be so kind as to cite an example of this. I also think it is a rather hypocritical for supporters of the Bahati Bill to complain about ‘intimidation’ by others.

    (I bet you haven’t gone now. I was finding you rather entertaining – in a morbid kind of way.)

  • Richard Willmer

    Have you gone too, ‘Maazi’? Aren’t you going to cite instances of my alleged lies? Or are you perhaps having difficulty finding something to cite?!

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 19, 2011 at 2:06 am

    ” If not for Paul Cameron, Scott Lively and NARTH, there would be no sources for AHB supporters to quote.

    And if it weren’t for Hooker, Herek, Hammer, Kinsey, et al you, Warren, and your “honourable” DAGSPs here would have nothing to reference.”

    The difference is, Warren debunks the claims of people like Lively by actually citing evidence to show where Lively is wrong. He doesn’t launch into personal attacks calling Lively names, but actually gives evidence and citations so the reader can look it up for him/herself and make his/her own judgments (re: A historian’s analysis of The Pink Swastika)

    While you childishly call researchers names if they publish something you don’t like and cite papers you haven’t read because some website tells you it agrees with your personal beliefs.

    You see, honest debaters will evaluate research based on whether the data and other evidence support the conclusions and whether alternate explanations have been fairly presented and examined.

    You only seem to care if it matches your own personal beliefs.

    “And perhaps like Kinsey, Warren would be on stand by to time the orgasms and then present us with some “scientific” findings.”

    You are confusing Kinsey with William Masters and Virginia Johnson. And such personal attacks say more about you than they do about Warren.

  • http://www.wthrockmorton.com Warren

    Maazi – Is this XXXXXX?

  • Richard Willmer

    Why should XXXXXX admit all this? And why was the Committee report leaked? And by whom? What’s going on?!

    I doubt that Warren and his coworkers were ever, for a moment, fooled or distracted by the ‘hanging’/'no hanging’ bit. We all knew from the get-go that the Bill was a totalitarian monster from the oeuvres d’oeuvres to the nuts. Western governments know that too, and they know also that we know that they know that (if you see what I’m driving at).

  • Maazi NCO

    Maazi – Is this XXXXXX?

    The story in that woman’s blog is just gay propaganda meant to keep US State Department focussed on Ugandan affairs. NRM has a huge majority in the parliament and does not need to bribe its own MPs to pass legislation favourable to an executive branch also run by NRM officials. It is a no-brainer really. The so-called “whistleblower” cited in the story is quite funny and comes across as daft fellow. He claims that once “hanging” is removed, foreign gay activists would be stripped of arguments. What an idiot !!! Was he holidaying on Planet Mars when Western government officials/ gay activists issued public statements saying that any modifications to the Bahati Bill will still be unacceptable to them? In fact, I do not even think that this “whistle-blower” chap exists in real life. I think he is a fake and an imaginary character made up by the propagandists. Having said that, I do not deny that we are working on “something”….

  • Richard Willmer

    @ ‘Maazi’

    I tend to agree that this latest ‘revelation’ is very odd indeed. After all, why should anyone ‘blow a whistle’ under the circumstances, unless that someone wants to ‘tell us (as in opponents of the Bill) something’? Very odd – just as the apparent leaking of the Committee report was, to my mind, very odd (if I were trying something like this, I’d make darn certain that there were no leaks!).

    I see that you and I both agree that simply removing the provision for ‘quick’ (as opposed to ‘slow’) slaughter is not going to convince any knowledgeable person opposed to the Bill. Nor would it convince the US or EU.

  • Maazi NCO

    I see that you and I both agree that simply removing the provision for ‘quick’ (as opposed to ‘slow’) slaughter is not going to convince any knowledgeable person opposed to the Bill. Nor would it convince the US or EU.

    You miss the point !! Nobody is labouring to convince the US or EU of anything. Everyone who can read a newspaper, listen to radio or watch TV in Uganda knows that the only thing that will satisfy Western governments is legalization of gayism—–which aint gonna happen in my life time or even that of my grand kids ! What I am trying to say is that eventually the anti-sodomy laws will be updated regardless of western pressure.

  • Richard Willmer

    I know exactly what you’re trying to say, dear! It just that I wanted to say something else!

  • ken

    WakefulUgandan# ~ May 18, 2011 at 4:25 pm

    hmm. somehow I missed this posted (perhaps it got stuck in moderation).

    @ Ken

    ” “and yes, I saw your claim about 1 in 20 homosexuals being child molesters.”

    Cameron P., Proctor K., Coburn W., Forde.N, Larson H., Cameron K. (1986). Child Molestation and Homesexuality. Psychological Reports, 1986, 58, pp. 327-37

    Satisfied?”

    yes. except that this article doesn’t say what you claim it does (that 1 in 20 homosexuals are child molesters). In fact given how the data is collected (surveying adults about 1st sexual experiences) it would not be possible to determine that. You can get the summary here: Child molestation and homosexuality

    However, to quote from this article (p. 333):

    However, considering only males, there was essentially no Now that you bring Evelyn’s Research, the question begs, was it scientific?difference between the proportion of bi- or homosexuals’ and heterosexuals’ claims of sexual interest in those under 16 yr., while a slightly higher proportion of heterosexuals reported an interest in pre-8-yr.-olds.

    (note the Now that you bring Evelyn’s Research, the question begs, was it scientific?percentages were 39.2% (bi/homo) to 44.5% (hetero) from the table on p. 334).

    Although, I thought NARTH removed all its references to Cameron’s work. You might want to do a bit of research on Cameron before you cite him again. And you might want to reconsider using NARTH as a source of info. Or at the very least, read the citations yourself before parroting what they say.

    “Now that you bring Evelyn’s Research, the question begs, was it scientific?”

    Yes, it was. It wasn’t perfect (no study is), nor, as I said, was it the only paper, it was merely the start. Now if you’d like to get into the specifics of the studies (and the significance of Dr. Hooker’s paper), I’d be wiling to do so. However, are you now willing to admit that your claim that there was “no scientific evidence” was wrong?

  • ken

    Ah stray mouse clicks messed up my quote from the Cameron article it should read:

    However, to quote from this article (p. 333):

    However, considering only males, there was essentially no difference between the proportion of bi- or homosexuals’ and heterosexuals’ claims of sexual interest in those under 16 yr., while a slightly higher proportion of heterosexuals reported an interest in pre-18-yr.-olds.

    (note the percentages were 39.2% (bi/homo) to 44.5% (hetero) from the table on p. 334).

  • ken

    to clarify. the 39.2% and 44.5% numbers are for the “pre-18-yr.-old” interest.

  • Richard Willmer

    @ Ken

    I think ‘WUg’ has gone now (that’s what he told me, anyway).

    Talking of child abuse, what might one make of the photograph of children accompanying this article? (I know what I think!!!) http://sxnews.gaynewsnetwork.com.au/news/uganda-anti-gay-bill-still-on-cards-008877.html

    Glass houses and stones spring to mind!