I am scheduled to be on CNN Newsroom Sunday

I will be on CNN Newsroom Sunday at 8:30am (ET) 7/24 to talk about evangelicals and reparative therapy.

I believe the focus is going to be on the recent issues relating to Marcus Bachmann’s clinic, Exodus, and Mark Yarhouse’s research demonstrating no orientation change on average in mixed orientation marriages.

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  • StraightGrandmother

    Warren, this ought to be quite interesting. Who is arguing on the other side?

    Don’t forget the statistics from the study,

    Page 49

    “Frequency of Intercourse Heterosexual Spouses 155

    Never had sexual intercourse with their partner (n=69; 44.5%)

    Less than once a month (n=25; 16.1%)

    About one time a month (n=23; 14.8%)

    Total = 74.4%

    Greater than 4 times a week (n=8; 5.2%).

    1-3 times a week (n=30; 19.4%)”

    Total = 24.6%

    ————————————-

    Need for Same-sex fantasy. The group of sexual minority respondents was Approximately 102 sexual minorities responded.

    Initial stages of love- making,

    54 (52.9%) No

    30 (29.4%) A little necessary

    18 (17.6%) Absolutely necessary

    Total = 47%

    Same Sex Fantasies further along during intercourse

    102 sexual minorities responded

    25 (24.5%) Never

    32 (31.4%) Frequently

    20 (19.6%) Occasionally

    25 (24.5%) Yes, but not often

    Total = 75.5%

    ———————————————-

    Sexual Fantasies during intercourse, does the spouse know?

    93 sexual minorities responded

    60 (64.5%) No

    33 (35.5%) Yes

    A point that hits home to me (not literally my husband is hetro, like 100% hetro) is the harm that befalls the heterosexual spouses. There ARE victims in these attempted “conversions” don’t forget for every conversion it involves another person not just the sexual minority.

    Page 48

    Q. Future Potential of Marital Relationship

    Sexual minority group 95 responded,

    Extremely Positive about their relation ship’s future (n=37; 38.8%)

    Positive (n=21; 22.1%),

    Total = 60.9%

    Neither positive or negative (n=18; 18.9%)

    Negative (n=12; 12.6%)

    Extremely negative (n=7; 7.4%).

    Total = 38.9%

    Heterosexual Spouses 113 individuals responded

    Positive about their relation-ship’s future (n=29; 25.7%).

    Extremely Positive (n=23; 20.4%)

    Total = 46.1%

    Neither positive or negative (n=23; 20.4%)

    Extremely negative (n=22; 19.5)

    Negative (n=16; 14.2%)

    Total = 54.1%

    Look how many of the heterosexual spouses are lukewarm to not that great about the future of their marriages.

    Please don’t let these spouses be ignored and forgotten. It really irritates me in the debate about gender neutral marriage the anti side never ever talks about the children of the couples who are gay, lesbian, bi-sexual or transgender. They avoid like the plague, talking about these children because they KNOW that these children ARE HARMED when their parents are not allowed to marry. So when you try to discuss, “Well yes but what about the children” they change the subject. Please don’t let the subject be changed about the harm to the heterosexual spouses.

    Ask the question after going over the statistics if the person on the other side would want their daughter or son to marry a sexual minority who is attempting to change their natural sexuual orientation behavior. I know I would not wish that for my children or grandchildren.

    I can’t wait to see the interview!

  • Kyle

    Interesting statistics. I would think the men who are largely gay but who do not need sexual fantasies when making love with their wives (because they are sexually attracted to them) are in relatively healthy marriage. I would think a woman could flourish in that relationship, for she is being desired sexually by her husband. The other ones, I’m not so sure…in fact I doubt that I would call them healthy.

  • Teresa

    It would certainly be interesting to find out how many str8 couples, men or women, don’t indulge in fantasy when making love with their spouses. I bet we’d be really surprised how ‘unhealthy’ the vast majority of str8 folks are.

    Also, being desired sexually, doesn’t necessarily translate into ‘healthy’ sex. A man/woman can be a porn consumer, and sexually desire their mate, for all the wrong reasons.

  • StraightGrandmother

    Kyle,

    I would think the men who are largely gay but who do not need sexual fantasies when making love with their wives (because they are sexually attracted to them) are in relatively healthy marriage.

    OR- the heterosexual spouse is VERY GOOD at oral sex as the study says during the initial stages of love-making. Not being a man I can’t say for sure but my guess is that if your spouse is “bringing you up” to get things started with oral sex you are not thinking about much of anything other than how great you feel between your legs. They are probably not thinking about their spouse OR a same sex fantasy, they are simply feeling aroused. I bet if their spouses didn’t start them off with oral sex they could not get aroused.

    Which is why 75% of them further along during love-making do at times have to have same sex fantasies to keep it going because now they are both giving and receiving. Receiving is one thing, giving is another, when it comes time to give they need a little same sex fantasy “help.” This is not sexual attraction in my opinion.

    And Kyle YOU added

    (because they are sexually attracted to them)

    This is not from the study but your own conclusions. I bet my conclusion is probably more on target, they are not sexually attracted to their spouse but their spouse is orally arousing them.

  • http://www.comingout4christians.net Dave

    Hi Kyle,

    To be quite honest with you I am a bit hesitant to get inside people heads when they are making love and speculate on whether the sexuality is healthy or not. I think too that you are missing a point here .. this isn’t all about sex. Its about who you feel intimate with .. and intimacy is more than sex. You can have sex without intimacy .. and you can have intimacy without sex .. Its nice when they both happen together but his is not always the case. I have sat in on some mixed oreintatin marriage discussions .. and while I cannot speak for all mixed oreintation marriages .. I will say that the one element that can be, at times, missing is not necessarily the sex but the intimacy. Depending on how much either spouse needs the intimacy this can be a major hurdle .. sometimes a hurdle that the couple is unable to overcome.

    We are both straight here .. (at least I assume you are .. correct me if I am wrong). And I think we may be taking for granted an intimacy that we have with our wives that some couples .. due to mismatched orientation .. are not able to achieve.

    Dave

  • ken

    I suspect there will be a bit of talk about Bachmann’s clinic.

    While it probably won’t come up in the interview, if you get a chance to ask anyone at CNN, I’d really be curious to find out if they have any info on how much of Bachmann’s business is due to conversion therapy and/or other sexual orientation issues.

  • Ann

    It would certainly be interesting to find out how many str8 couples, men or women, don’t indulge in fantasy when making love with their spouses.

    At the risk of sounding cynical, I would say probably zero.

    I bet we’d be really surprised how ‘unhealthy’ the vast majority of str8 folks are.

    :-D

  • Eddy

    I do hope that you’ll clear up the confusion around the term ‘reparative therapy’…distinguishing between Nicolosi’s brand name and the generic use the term has taken on. I still haven’t heard anyone dig deep enough to find out if Bachmann is Nicolosian or if he simply offers help to people with unwanted same sex attractions.

  • StraightGrandmother

    Ann with the risk of TMI, (To Much Information) I am coy about stating my age but let’s just say that once love-making begins I have never EVER in +35 years had fantasies during love-making. I am focused on my man, not anybody else. I can’t say if I am the norm or an exception to the norm I guess the experts will have to weigh in. I tend to think most people are the same as me, we are all into “the moment” and the “moment” is with my spouse.

  • Mary

    I bet we’d be really surprised how ‘unhealthy’ the vast majority of str8 folks are

    I was thinking the same thing.

  • Lynn David

    Give us a wink!

  • Kyle

    SG,

    You said:

    “Which is why 75% of them further along during love-making do at times have to have same sex fantasies to keep it going because now they are both giving and receiving. Receiving is one thing, giving is another, when it comes time to give they need a little same sex fantasy “help.” This is not sexual attraction in my opinion.

    I agree. I was referring to those who do not use fantasy at any point. As for those whose spouses “get them excited” via oral sex first, maybe you’re right. But I recall Warren saying something about them genuinely having developed sexual attraction for their wives, and their wives alone. I can speak from personal experience as a man that it would be quite hard to “keep it going” without some kind of sexual attraction (or fantasy for others, even if you are “started” by just a physiological reaction.

    And Dave/Theresa (yes I’m a straight male), certainly I agree that you can have sex and sexual attraction without intimacy; that would not be healthy. I was definitely too hasty in thinking they were also intimate with their wives. I’m sure this intimacy is hard to achieve for SSA people, because difficulty having intimacy with the other sex is part of what it means for them to be gay. But maybe some of them do achieve intimacy with their other-sex spouses alone, while many or most do not. Who knows, just a guess. I’m not sure the study indicates either way. We are getting into an important moral element of the sex.

    At the risk of TMI as well, I’d have to agree with SG. Fantasies about other women are certainly not involved during lovemaking for me as well. I would think that would be a pretty big violation of trust. Before I sought out marriage, I was resolved to be sexually mature enough not entertain and indulge such thoughts about anyone but my spouse. In my opinion, too many people enter marriage frivolously and without any sense of self-knowledge of the ability to keep one’s vows.

    Kyle

  • Jayhuck

    I can speak from personal experience as a man that it would be quite hard to “keep it going” without some kind of sexual attraction (or fantasy for others, even if you are “started” by just a physiological reaction.

    I know at least one commenter on here, Michael B, who has shared several times about how, in his own marriage, which finally ended I believe, he had to use same-sex fantasy to have physical relations with this wife,..so I know this occurs.

  • Jayhuck

    Kyle,

    In my opinion, too many people enter marriage frivolously and without any sense of self-knowledge of the ability to keep one’s vows.

    I’m sure you are correct and that this applies both to same-sex and opposite-sex marriages

  • Teresa

    Kyle,

    In my opinion, too many people enter marriage frivolously and without any sense of self-knowledge of the ability to keep one’s vows.

    Unfortunately for our society, what you’ve stated here, Kyle, seems to have become the ‘ordinary’ way of entering marriage, don’t you think?

  • Ann

    I still haven’t heard anyone dig deep enough to find out if Bachmann is Nicolosian or if he simply offers help to people with unwanted same sex attractions.

    Eddy,

    Digging deep requires critical thinking (something you have), however, I do not see it used very much here by others, especially regarding this subject. Digging deeper might reveal an inconvenient truth for those jumping on the band wagon (lack of critical thought) if they find he is simply offering to help people with unwanted same sex attractions – people who, of their own volition come to him. They do exist and should receive and deserve ethical treatment in a safe setting.

  • Kyle

    Teresa,

    Yes. And I think the main reason is that we idolize marriage. We see it as the goal, the best-case scenario for every Christian. Or, we see it as a cure for lust!

  • Ann

    Teresa,

    Regarding fantasies, TMI, etc. – I think opposite gender couples have more fantasies about sex than they will ever admit to. Envisions and interpretations of fantasies are subjective and I would think can go from one end of the spectrum to another – some very innocent and pure, while others not so much. I also think that is where our preferences, in who we desire, come from. This, I think, affects everyone.

  • Teresa

    Kyle,

    Teresa,

    Yes. And I think the main reason is that we idolize marriage. We see it as the goal, the best-case scenario for every Christian. Or, we see it as a cure for lust!

    With porn ubiquitous and so easily accessible through the internet even by the very young, lust has become a social problem of immense proportions and destructiveness to appropriate maturation for both men and women. Relationally, ‘original sin’ has made the complementarity of men and women, sexual and otherwise, difficult to begin with. The added layer of something so degrading to participants as well as viewers, as porn is, makes it near impossible to not see one another as mere objects for gratification.

    Kyle, the Orthodox Churches as well as the Catholic Church has for centuries viewed the Religious Life as ‘better’ in a way than the ‘married state’. Both see the Religious Life as a Vocation, and being married or single, as a state of life. Single persons have always been treated as ‘leftovers’ … and, I’m speaking mainly of str8 singles (as well as gay singles who were usually in the closet). Single persons have had a really tough time throughout the centuries. There was a pervasive, social feeling of ‘something was wrong with you’ if you weren’t a Religious or married.

    Not until these recent decades, where being single … transitionally single, meaning between marriages … later marriages, just plain not wanting the responsibility of marriage, being able to adopt as a single person, better jobs that paid more money than before … doesn’t seem out of place, have singles enjoyed such social acceptation. However, studies continue to show that single persons die sooner than married persons.

  • Teresa

    Ann, regarding fantasy

    I also think that is where our preferences, in who we desire, come from.

    This statement of yours, Ann, really interests me. So, are you saying, our sexual fantasies drive our orientation? Do same-sex attracted persons ever fantasize about sex with the opposite gender? If so, what does that mean?

  • Ann

    So, are you saying, our sexual fantasies drive our orientation? Do same-sex attracted persons ever fantasize about sex with the opposite gender? If so, what does that mean?

    Teresa,

    I have no knowledge about sexual fantasies driving orientation. I think fantasies are subjective to the individual and often not a choice. They can be very innocent or not. They can escalate or diminish. It seems they are not exclusive to anyone. I do think who and what we desire comes from that which we can envision and simultaneously feel some form of mental/emotional/physical stimulation, which can be fleeting or enduring. Envisioning is just one of the senses, however, I think it more important than tasting, touching, smelling (although smelling is very STRONG too), and hearing.

    Whether same sex attracted persons ever fantasize about sex with the opposite gender, I am not sure, and if they did, I am not sure what that would mean either.

  • Ann

    Dr. Throckmorton,

    I am sending you good thoughts for tomorrow :-D

    Ann

  • Teresa

    Dr. Throckmorton,

    I am sending you good thoughts for tomorrow :-D

    Ann

    Yes, to this, Ann. Thanks for remembering this. So very important, along with prayer … of course, they’re probably the same thing!!

  • Jane Bailey

    I’m sorry, but I’m having a bit of a problem seeing this as a “Christian” discussion? Someone sent me this information. I do hope Dr.Throckmorton isn’t going to come off as a born-again believer or anything. This whole site is just PC, PC, PC.Where’s the power of God? Are you saying that God may not be “able” to change some people? That’ homosexual sin is just a different sin somehow and it’s just too tough for God? The whole tone here is, I’m sorry, phony.

  • StraightGrandmother

    This whole site is just PC, PC, PC

    Yes! And I really like it that way.

  • Teresa

    @Warren,

    Please, let us know how it went, and what your thoughts are regarding the whole thing. You’ve become very important to a number of us.

    If there’s a link to the Program, could you please post that, also?

  • Lynn David

    All I can say is you need better lighting and who the h.e.double-hockey-sticks does your makeup? A little powder might have taken that glare away. Thankfully, they put the ‘Via Skype’ up there on the screen; it at least mitigates some of that.

    Too bad you couldn’t come up with something exciting like a temper tantrum as Nicolosi the last tim CNN tried to interview him.

  • http://wthrockmorton.com Warren

    Thanks Teresa. I have not been able to find the clip online. It was only about 3 minutes and did not go into the subject in any real detail. If I find it anywhere I will post.

    Lynn David, I think the prob is your TV…

  • Lynn David

    LOL!!!

  • Kyle

    Well I think it is one thing to be presented with a sexual thought, or to notice someone as physically attractive, and another thing to “fantasize” about someone, which is to entertain and indulge those feelings and thoughts in a protracted way. The former happens to most of us who have a libido of some kind, and I think is morally neutral (or at least basically beyond our control), whereas the latter is where choice and responsibility comes in, I think.

  • Lynn David

    Kyle…. Well I think it is one thing to be presented with a sexual thought, or to notice someone as physically attractive, and another thing to “fantasize” about someone, which is to entertain and indulge those feelings and thoughts in a protracted way. The former happens to most of us who have a libido of some kind, and I think is morally neutral (or at least basically beyond our control), whereas the latter is where choice and responsibility comes in, I think.

    So… what are you saying? That fantasizing about anyone in any situtation is somehow “bad?” Or only if you are fantasizing about someone of the same sex? Frankly, your ‘former’ sounds pretty much similar to fantasizing itself.

    And if your point is simply about fantasizing about the same sex. How is that initial thought that begins one’s fantasy any different than the sexual thought when onen notices another as physically attractive?

    Sure to continue there is choice and “responsibility” implied; but “responsibility” to what? To yourself? Or some nebulosity?


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