No Date Set for Uganda's Anti-Homosexuality Bill

Yesterday, I reported that the Parliament of Uganda voted to return unfinished bills from the Eighth Session to business in the current session. One of those bills specifically referenced was the Anti-Homosexuality Bill.

This morning I spoke with Parliament Spokeswoman, Helen Kawesa, who told me that no date had been set for debate on the anti-gay measure. “The Business Committee will meet to decide what bills are considered. Then they will be listed on the daily Order Paper,” Kawesa explained. The Business Committee is chaired by Speaker of the House Rebecca Kadaga and made up of all other committee chairs. Currently, no date has been set for this committee to consider a schedule for the bills returned from the Eighth Parliament.

I also spoke briefly to Stephen Tashobya, chair of the Legal and Parliamentary Affairs committee. His committee prepared a report on the Anti-Homosexuality Bill in May and recommended passage with some minor changes. He had no comment on the status of the anti-gay bill since he has been traveling.

According to Kawesa, the Business committee could recommend that the anti-gay bill go back to committee or it could recommend that the former committee report become the basis for debate in the Parliament. Apparently, the return of the bill to the floor is not automatic. The Speaker has some ability to delay it or expedite it. The decision of the Business committee may signal how quickly the bill will move.

The committee report from Tashobya’s committee left the severe aspects of the bill intact, including the death penalty and life in prison (see an analysis here).

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  • Richard Willmer

    Thanks for the update, Warren. It’s really good that you talk to some of these MP characters.

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  • Maazi NCO

    Thanks for the update, Warren. It’s really good that you talk to some of these MP characters.

    I can already see you pressuring the idle fools at Her Majesty’s Foreign and Commonwealth Office to cajole the “MP characters”. I am just laughing because you chaps do not know how to prioritize your time. The Northern Hemisphere has been devastated by the Global credit crunch. Instead of concentrating on fixing your economies, you chaps are more interested in compulsive satisfaction of your deeply ingrained imperialistic impulses by interfering in affairs of other nations using as a convenient excuse nice-sounding buzzwords like “Human Rights”, “Democracy”, “Freedom”, etc. Continue like this and you lot in the next 50 years would be left with nothing, but memories of a glorious past !!!

  • Richard Willmer

    Not sure that UG economy is in particularly brilliant shape either,’Maazi NCO MP’.

    How big was that pay rise for UG MPs again? Enough to cover the rising price of sugar, was it? Or more than enough perhaps?

  • Maazi NCO

    Not sure that UG economy is in particularly brilliant shape either,’Maazi NCO MP’. How big was that pay rise for UG MPs again? Enough to cover the rising price of sugar, was it? Or more than enough perhaps?

    Uganda is not your concern. That is my point. Yes, we have problems not unlike those of other struggling developing nations. The solutions to our problems do not lie with you lot. It lies within us. Why not concentrate on your own country and European continent for a change?

  • Richard Willmer

    We are free to do both, and so are you (you comment on the West’s problem, and we don’t castigate you for that). If you don’t like this reality, ‘Maazi NCO MP’, then, as the saying goes, “tough”. If you want to repress and/or slaughter your own people, that’s your choice; if we decide to respond as we see fit, then that’s ours. Simple really.

    (Fortunately, there are sensible people in the Ugandan body-politic; it is my fervent hope that common sense will prevail and that it will not be necessary to have a ‘showdown’.)

  • Richard Willmer

    Incidentally, I agree with some of ‘Maazi NCO MP’s’ comments about problems facing western society (not enough social justice and cohesion, too great a love of money, too little respect for those who are less in a position to defend themselves). Where I disagree with him is that ‘bashing gays (or immigrants or racial minorities or anyone else) forms any part of the answer. What is needed here in the West is further progress towards the respect of the human dignity of every person, and a deeper desire for the common good; the same is, IMHO, true for Uganda, since all of us human beings are essentially the same (as the saying goes “the colour of skin is irrelevant – we all have the same coloured blood”).

  • Maazi NCO

    Where I disagree with him is that ‘bashing gays (or immigrants or racial minorities or anyone else) forms any part of the answer.

    You are deploying false equivalence !!! Immigrants and racial minorities are okay and there is nothing wrong with those. Gayism is an abominable inhuman unAfrican and insane behaviour that shall never be accorded any respect or legality in Uganda.

  • Richard Willmer

    Methinks the Lady doth protest too much.

    Anyway, ‘the Lady’s’ comment about ‘equivalence’ is itself based on a whole range of assumptions.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi NCO MP’ says to me:

    Uganda is not your concern.

    Actually, I have good reason to be ‘concerned’ about Uganda, but I’m not going into details on that particular point, except to say that it goes well beyond the controversy being discussed on this thread.

    He also says:

    Immigrants and racial minorities are okay and there is nothing wrong with those.

    This is a(nother) meaningless statement: whether people are ‘okay’ surely depends on their behaviour and motives, not on their race or residential status.

    One of the things that I find so distasteful about ‘anti-gay ideology’ is the blantant hypocrisy and double standards inherent within it. Everybody who bothers to ‘engage with reality’ knows perfectly well that there are gay people who behave well towards others, just as there are straight people who do not.

    One final thought: if Ugandan MPs were to ‘make a point’ by indiscriminately repressing, or even slaughtering, a group of their own compatriots, then this would be tragic – primarily for Uganda. And the fact that it would be tragic is what prevents it from being comic. Let’s hope they see sense and refrain from this kind of Gaddafi-like behaviour. (My experience of Ugandans gives me grounds for hope in this regard, the fulminations of the likes of ‘Maazi NCO MP’ notwithstanding.)

  • Maazi NCO

    Let’s hope they see sense and refrain from this kind of Gaddafi-like behaviour. (My experience of Ugandans gives me grounds for hope in this regard, the fulminations of the likes of ‘Maazi NCO MP’ notwithstanding.)

    So you chaps are now threatening to invade Uganda? How many bombs will NATO planes be dropping on our Parliament to make us approve gayism? Well, you can cry all you want, but we have made up our mind on the need to preserve our culture in much the same way that Germany and UK have been able to do so with respect to incest between consenting adult relatives despite the entrenched immoral hedonistic cultural tendencies in both European nations. In the last six years, a British High Court judge and 7 German supreme court judges have had cause to support criminal convictions of adults engaging in the abominable act of incest.

    In Uganda, we insist that gayism is as bad as incest (if not worse) and it shall remain criminalized. It is right and just to review the penal laws dealing with such abominable acts to bring them up to date. I have to say that desperate attempts by European and American gay propagandists to manufacture an artificial “ethnic minority identity” for people who engage in gayism is really pathetic and many parts of the world will never stand for such rubbish and that includes the vast majority of the Ugandan people

  • Richard Willmer

    I am not aware of any plan to invade Uganda!!! But I think it is now pretty clear that, if Uganda passes laws that are designed to kill people simply because they are gay, then there would be other ‘consequences’.

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi NCO MP’ is, of course, a politician, so the disingenuous nature of many of his statements should not surprise us.

    His claims that ‘western propaganda attempts’ are ‘desperate’ itself smacks of desperation. The truth is campaigns for the fair treatment of gay people have been remarkably successful over past few decades; the advent of David Bahati’s ‘slaughter bill’ has helped to strengthen that campaign further, as well as promoting vibrant discussion within Uganda itself.

  • Richard Willmer

    Latest Bloomberg article: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-27/why-uganda-s-anti-gay-legislation-is-the-world-s-business-view.html

    (One aspect of the article is not correct, we think: our understanding is that Museveni does not have a power of veto – the article suggests that he does.)

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  • Richard Willmer
  • Richard Willmer

    And, of course, the line of the UG Catholic Church hierarchy has all along been much the same as those above: http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2010/jan/10011101

    (The UG Catholic statement is somewhat confused, as it cites Penal Code 145 as a reason for not needing the Bill, having suggested that the bishops oppose even imprisonment for gays. On a wider level, the Church has come within an inch of supporting general decriminalization: the ‘current formula’ being its stated opposition to what it terms “discriminatory penal legislation” against gays: http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=a9849daa-dd60-4028-adc0-2dfa024cb3a9)

  • Maazi NCO

    Richard—Your intention to appeal to Ugandan Catholics is already a failure. As I have mentioned in the past, though I am not really religious, I was raised as a Catholic. I understand the Vatican’s meandering nuances on the subject of gayism within the context of the Holy See being surrounded by powerful and obsessively pro-gay European nations. Uganda is not a theocratic state nor is it a Catholic nation (despite having many Catholic citizens). The Parliament of Uganda will not base its debates on the views of any particular religious entity. It is that simple. By the way, Pastor Solomon male is entitled to his opinion as are the cabinet ministers and the President.

  • StraightGrandmother

    I first met Fred at a prayer service for gay men in an industrial part of Nairobi where even on a Sunday morning, the noise was deafening. The service was part biblical study and part support group. The other men who were worshipping with Fred in the dingy and cavernous room that day were Kenyans, but he was not.

    Fred, a lanky Ugandan, became a refugee in December 2009 after he was brutally assaulted by a mob in Kampala for being gay.

    Fred, who asked that his last name not be used, bought a one-way ticket to Nairobi days after the assault with the intention of never returning. “It’s OK to kill me,” he said. “People would be happy to see me dead, even some of my family.” I asked what he meant by OK, and he explained that no one would ever have to pay a price for his murder.

    Within the last decade, rancorous anti-gay rhetoric has infiltrated public discourse in many African countries…. see rest of article at link

    http://www.salon.com/2011/10/29/gay_africans_flee_persecution/singleton/

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi NCO MP’ :

    The fact is that, whether you like it or not, passing Bahati’s “Slaughter Bill” is looking more an more like the obsession of a dwindling bunch of foolish, power-hungry politicians. Others are distinctly going off the idea, it would seem.

    It is true that most MPs want the Bill to go through parliamentary procedure (we all know that); what is less clear is how many of those MPs (the sensible ones) want this to happen so that the Bill can be killed for good … but I know there are some (and so do you – although you don’t like to admit it).

  • Richard Willmer

    ‘Maazi NCO’ says

    I understand the Vatican’s meandering nuances on the subject of gayism …

    I wouldn’t describe the Vatican’s statement as ‘nuanced’; it’s actually very clear, despite the ‘measured’ tone. It says a very clear ‘no‘ to ‘all forms of violence and unjust discrimination’ and to ‘discriminatory penal legislation’. And such statements are not new either: back in 1979, Basil Cardinal Hume said something very similar, as did Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) in 1986. (It should be remembered that there was very considerable, if ‘low-level’, anti-gay feeling in western societies back then.)

    The Catholic Church is a ‘big player’ in Uganda; no politician should ignore it, though – despite my own Catholic sympathies – I would never want the Church to be an organ of power politics in Uganda or anywhere else. Such is not, under any circumstances, the Church’s job.

    An aside: I was talking with a fairly well-known Ugandan public figure recently, and he was saying how, in his experience, people were losing faith with the ‘quick-fix’ religion offered by some independent ‘churches’ there and showing a greater willingness to listen to the more measured and realistic tones of the Catholic Church. He also said that the Church of Uganda, having spurned the practical offers of friendship from more liberal parts of the Anglican Communion, was finding that Anglican ‘reactionaries’ were not doing very well when it came to delivering on their promises of practical support. It was a very interesting conversation … very interesting …

  • Richard Willmer

    Incidentally, I was told something similar on the subject of ‘quick-fix’ religion about the situation in parts of Nigeria by a Nigerian friend of mine.

  • Maazi NCO

    It is true that most MPs want the Bill to go through parliamentary procedure (we all know that); what is less clear is how many of those MPs (the sensible ones) want this to happen so that the Bill can be killed for good … but I know there are some (and so do you – although you don’t like to admit it).

    Gay propaganda as usual

    The Catholic Church is a ‘big player’ in Uganda; no politician should ignore it, though – despite my own Catholic sympathies – I would never want the Church to be an organ of power politics in Uganda or anywhere else. Such is not, under any circumstances, the Church’s job.

    An aside: I was talking with a fairly well-known Ugandan public figure recently, and he was saying how, in his experience, people were losing faith with the ‘quick-fix’ religion offered by some independent ‘churches’ there and showing a greater willingness to listen to the more measured and realistic tones of the Catholic Church. He also said that the Church of Uganda, having spurned the practical offers of friendship from more liberal parts of the Anglican Communion, was finding that Anglican ‘reactionaries’ were not doing very well when it came to delivering on their promises of practical support. It was a very interesting conversation … very interesting …

    More gay propaganda….Keep propagandizing….. Who knows, it might just work !!! :D

  • Maazi NCO

    http://www.salon.com/2011/10/29/gay_africans_flee_persecution/singleton/

    These stories tend to be funny as much as they are unfounded. Every smart Alec from Africa looking for greener pastures usually claims to be a gay sex practitioner in order to secure asylum. In this day and age, it is no longer fashionable to claim that you are refugee fleeing war in Rwanda, Liberia or Darfur. Claiming gayism is the surest way to win the sympathy of the Europeans and Americans whose culture celebrates hedonism and immorality to its fullest capacity.

    BTW, Africans did not focus on gayism in the earlier years because gay sex practitioners committed their abominable sexual acts out of public eye. In fact, until recently, many Africans would have sworn that gayism did not exist in their countries. What has changed in the last 5 to 10 years in Africa is Western attitudes towards Africa’s cultural beliefs. In the past, Westerners were content manipulating African politics and economies, but now they want to influence the socio-cultural realities of African societies. All this pressure on Africa to legalize gayism by Western media, Western governments, Euro-American gay propagandists (usually through puppet NGOs based locally in Africa) and western-controlled international bodies (e.g. United Nations, WHO, etc) is what is causing a BACKLASH. All this talk about conservative US evangelicals is just stupid. Africans are capable of independent thinking. Nobody in Uganda is listening to Rick Warren’s plea for the Bahati Bill to be dropped and nobody will listen even if Scott Lively does the same. Even if all US Evangelicals jointly issue a statement denouncing the Bahati Bill, nobody here will listen. Gayism is against African culture and that is what ultimately counts.

  • Richard Willmer

    Nothing wrong with effective propaganda, as long as it is truthful.

    And, yes, it might help. But we’re not going to fall prey to overconfidence.

    (By the way, ‘Maazi NCO MP’, with his ‘backlash’ theory, is now using the ‘look-what-you’ve-made-me-do’ argument. We can see straight through that one. :-D)

  • Maazi NCO

    Nothing wrong with effective propaganda, as long as it is truthful.

    Please don’t make me laugh. Gay propaganda has always thrived on lies and hyperboles. BTW, I just read the BBC News story about Dave-Boy Cameron ranting about cutting UK donor aid unless African nations legalize anal sex. I just laughed out loud and moved unto the next the BBC story…..

  • Richard Willmer

    My ‘propaganda’ has been based principally on the text of Bahati’s “Hang-the-Gays Bill”, and the words of people like ‘Maazi NCO MP’.

    Cameron had not said that same-sex relationships must be legalized in order to avoid reduction in General Budget Support (which should not be confused with ‘aid’ generally) to governments. However, governments that preside over worsening human rights situations will certainly face penalties. The introduction of anything remotely like Bahati’s “Bloodbath Bill” would indeed put a government in line for ‘punishment’.

    One further point: general decriminalization of same-sex relationships is a medium term goal; there are no plans to try to force Commonwealth countries to have, for example, ‘gay marriages’.

  • Richard Willmer

    I said this:

    My ‘propaganda’ has been based principally on the text of Bahati’s “Hang-the-Gays Bill”, and the words of people like ‘Maazi NCO MP’.

    So it is an honest account of others’ dishonesty!

  • Richard Willmer

    Warren

    Might it be worth doing a piece on the UK Government’s policy? One of your nice forensic analyses?

    Here’s the article that ‘Maazi NCO’ cited earlier today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15511081

    Here’s the statement (in relation to Ghana) from the responsible UK Government department:-

    Following a story printed in the British press last weekend, a number of media outlets in Ghana have suggested that the UK is cutting or threatening to cut aid to Ghana and other African countries with poor records on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGB&T) rights.

    “We wish to state that the original reporting in the UK media contained a number of factual errors, including that UK aid to Ghana had been cut. This is not the case.

    “In 2010, total UK aid to Ghana was £85 million, £36 million of which was provided as general budget support (that is, unearmarked financial aid going directly to the government budget). A further £23 million was provided in budget support specifically to the health and education sectors. Total UK aid to Ghana is planned to rise to £100 million by 2015.

    “The UK government provides aid directly to partner governments when we are satisfied that they share our commitments to: reduce poverty; respect human rights and other international obligations; improve public financial management; promote good governance and transparency, and fight corruption. We regularly review the performance of governments in these areas and take action when we have concerns. As part of our commitment to uphold human rights and international obligations, we are committed to combating violence and discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGB&T) people in all circumstances.

    “In the case of Ghana, following statements in the press attributed to the Western Regional Minister, DFID Minister Stephen O’Brien did raise the UK’s concerns with government counterparts during his visit to Ghana in July.

    “In Malawi, the UK decided to suspend general budget support in July 2011, after the Government of Malawi repeatedly failed to address UK concerns over a broad range of economic management and governance issues. These issues included concerns about human rights, including minority rights. Again, the UK has not cut its aid budget to Malawi, but continues to support programmes in Malawi that protect poor people and deliver basic services like health and education.

  • Richard Willmer

    Interesting comment from a report on the CHoGM Conference in Perth:-

    (Ugandan presidential adviser John) Nagenda accused Mr Cameron of showing an “ex-colonial mentality” and of treating Ugandans “like children”. “Uganda is, if you remember, a sovereign state and we are tired of being given these lectures by people,” he told the BBC’s Newshour programme. “If they must take their money, so be it.”…Mr Nagenda said he doubted that the Ugandan parliament would ever approve a bill which proposed the death penalty for some homosexual acts. “I believe it will die a natural death. But this kind of ex-colonial mentality of saying: ‘You do this or I withdraw my aid’ will definitely make people extremely uncomfortable with being treated like children,” Mr Nagenda said.

    Well I do understand Nagenda’s chagrin. But I think he is making some assumptions here – assumptions that need to be challenged.

    Firstly, there is not ‘threat’ to cut resources to help Ugandans. There is policy to ‘rebalance’ how aid is deployed in order best to promote human rights. The Government of the United Kingdom has every right -even, it could be argued, a duty – to develop and pursue such a policy.

    Secondly, noone is treating Ugandans like ‘children’. The Ugandan Government is simply being informed of the policy on how aid is to be deployed, so that it can make properly informed choices about its own policies.

    Thirdly, the notion that “[the Bill] will die a natural death” is not looking that realistic just now. The May ‘attempted trickery’ episode (when attempts were made to trick people into thinking that the ‘slaughter provisions’ in the Bill had been dropped) rightly made western governments furious – we were treated as if we were stupid. We are not. There is still much ‘bad blood’ as a result of what happened then.

    I can see why Nagenda felt that he had to say what he said, but surely any country must understand that good relations always come with ‘strings attached’. Our ‘strings’ are that we are not prepared to tolerate the execution and imprisonment of people simply because they are gay, just as we do not execute or imprison people simply because they have more than one consenting sexual partner.

    If we were saying to Uganda: “you must introduce ‘gay marriage’ or we’ll cut aid”, then I would completely understand their annoyance. But we are not saying that. We are saying this: “if you start killing (and continue/begin imprisoning) people simply because they are gay, or because they speak up for the fundamental human rights of their gay compatriots, we will find different ways of distributing aid intended to help ordinary Ugandans – ways that do not provide direct cash support to the state machinery that administers the aforementioned killing/imprisoning.” Given previous statements he has made, Nagenda should have no problem at all with that!

  • Richard Willmer

    Of course, Nagenda’s comment about the Bill ‘dying a natural death’ is an echo of assurances that President Museveni has given to ‘donor’ governments that the Bahati Bill will not be passed. The problem is that, as things stand, those assurances are looking rather ‘unsure’, creating more than a little ‘unease’ in Berlin, London, Oslo, Washington, Stockholm, Paris …

  • Maazi NCO

    I could respond, but your friend Warren keeps his censorship shields up. He doesn’t particularly like people who come too strong with opinions diametrically opposed to his.

  • Maazi NCO

    Hopefully, this comment wouldn’t wither away in the Warren’s moderation queue…

    Of course, Nagenda’s comment about the Bill ‘dying a natural death’ is an echo of assurances that President Museveni has given to ‘donor’ governments that the Bahati Bill will not be passed. The problem is that, as things stand, those assurances are looking rather ‘unsure’, creating more than a little ‘unease’ in Berlin, London, Oslo, Washington, Stockholm, Paris

    Like I have said before, all Ugandan government officials are entitled to their views. They are free to shelve, unshelve and reshelve any set of documents they like. Nagenda is free to babble whatever tickles his fancy. The MPs of the Ugandan Parliament will act in the best interests of the Ugandan people.

    If we were saying to Uganda: “you must introduce ‘gay marriage’ or we’ll cut aid”, then I would completely understand their annoyance. But we are not saying that. We are saying this: “if you start killing (and continue/begin imprisoning) people simply because they are gay, or because they speak up for the fundamental human rights of their gay compatriots, we will find different ways of distributing aid intended to help ordinary Ugandans

    No amount of blackmail will compel Uganda to recognize gayism as a human right. It is a sex crime not a human right matter. Gayism will never be accorded legal protection or respect over here. Western nations that are unhappy with the Parliament of Uganda can simply withdraw their money and use it to fix their crumbling economies. Its much better European governments withdraw their useless “donor aid” and spend it on themselves rather than the humiliating spectacle of going cap-in-hand to beg China for money.

  • Richard Willmer

    There is no blackmail. There is a policy. We disagree with your assessment of so-called ‘gayism’, and our policy reflects that.

    There is no plan to ‘withdraw money’ for ‘domestic’ use. The policy is about redeploying resources so that they are used to best effect.

  • Richard Willmer

    By the way, I notice that ‘Maazi NCO MP’ is complaining about his comments ‘awaiting moderation’!

    ‘Maazi’ is quite content to blackmail his gay compatriots into pretending they are straight, but when his comments are places in the moderation queue, he whinges about being persecuted. (This kind of thing is so typical: the aggressor saying he is a victim.)

    ‘Maazi’, dear – All of us have our comments moderated from time to time. Warren has every right to do this; it is his blog, and we are his guests.

  • Richard Willmer

    Oh wonderful! How truly appropriate! (I’ll explain when my comment above completes its time in … the moderation queue.)

  • Richard Willmer

    David Bahati has again expressed his desire to press ahead with his slaughter programme: http://www.ugpulse.com/uganda-news/government/mp-asks-donor-countries-not-dictate-to-poor-countries/22423.aspx

    He is saying what he has always said. I’m almost to say “so what?”

    We should not forget that it looked as if the Bill would easily pass two years ago; the firm line taken by many governments helped to stop that happening then.

  • Maazi NCO

    ‘Maazi’, dear – All of us have our comments moderated from time to time. Warren has every right to do this; it is his blog, and we are his guests.

    Agreed. It is indeed Doc Warren’s blog and he can do as he pleases. But let nobody pretend that he is infinitely libertarian when it comes to the views and actions of other people.

    The policy is about redeploying resources so that they are used to best effect.

    Your policy of redeploying funds to domestic puppets of Euro-American Gay Lobby has already failed and will continue to fail.

    ‘Maazi’ is quite content to blackmail his gay compatriots into pretending they are straight

    No, no, no. I am not asking anybody to pretend. You are entitled to fantasize about having sex with an animal, a person of the same sex, a dead body or a mango tree. I don’t care, provided you obey the law of the land which strictly prohibits you from acting out those fantasies and inciting others to do the same

    David Bahati has again expressed his desire to press ahead with his slaughter programme

    There is no “slaughter programme”. The Ugandan people do not engage in slaughter or massacres or genocide. By the way, the Bahati Bill is now the property of the Parliament of Uganda. It no longer belongs to Honourable David Bahati (MP, Ndorwa West). You are now free to quit your obsession with this particular parliamentarian.

    We should not forget that it looked as if the Bill would easily pass two years ago; the firm line taken by many governments helped to stop that happening then.

    I recall asking you last year without getting any useful answer whether the policy of using the executive branch of the Ugandan State as a buffer against the aspirations of the Ugandan people (represented by Parliament ) was sustainable in the long term.

  • Richard Willmer

    I have no idea, ‘Maazi NCO MP’.

    Your question is not actually very easy to answer because, unlike in the USA, there is no strict ‘separation of powers’ (many MPs are also ministers), – and there are other loci of power too. Ugandan politics is very complicated, especially the ‘succession politics (which I think may be a factor behind this Bill).

    We here just have to have clear (but ‘thoughtful’) policy and stick to it, I reckon.

  • Richard Willmer

    By the way, I don’t recall Warren ever claiming to be ‘infinitely libertarian’ – or anyone else making that claim on his behalf.

  • Maazi NCO

    Your question is not actually very easy to answer because, unlike in the USA, there is no strict ‘separation of powers’ (many MPs are also ministers), – and there are other loci of power too. Ugandan politics is very complicated, especially the ‘succession politics (which I think may be a factor behind this Bill).

    But you are British not American. Is there any separation of powers between the executive branch of the UK government and the parliament in Westminster? Are David Cameron and his cabinet ministers not parliamentarians as well? In fact until relatively recently, there was no clear separation of powers between the UK judiciary and the Westminster parliament because court judges (Law Lords) used to seat in the House of Lords. Is there separation of church and state in the UK?

  • Richard Willmer

    Indeed I am, and you are correct in what you say.

    Officially, the UK Parliament is ‘sovereign’, but everybody understands that, perhaps unlike in the USA, there is in practice strong link between the fate of the Government and that of MPs.

  • Maazi NCO

    Too bad!!! Davey-Boy Cameron’s threat has not just been rebuffed by Uganda, it has also been rebuffed by other African nations (e.g. Ghana and Malawi).

    You are —of course— welcome to perform a positive pro-gay spin on these stories, labouring painfully to explain to us that a transparent blackmail from the UK government is actually nothing of the sort, but some kind of “redeployment of resources” (Whatever that means !!!!)

    Bottom line—- most Africans do not take the threats of the cash-strapped Baby-Faced UK Prime Minister seriously. “Baby-Face” ended up embarrassing himself and his cabinet officials. Every single person I have spoken to over here is curious to know why Davey-Boy Cameron “likes” ANAL SEX.

  • Richard Willmer

    The policy has been in place for some time, as many of us know. Perhaps it might have been better to continue to have ‘quiet chats’ with the African leaders concerned, and not ‘go public’. To be absolutely honest, that is actually my view.

    That said, you have always made clear your determination to see the Bill pass, regardless of whether or not cash currently given to politicians is directed elsewhere. So, in a sense, nothing has changed. Bahati continues says what he has always said.

    I think we all expected some ‘noise’ from certain quarters over this.

    I see, ‘Maazi NCO MP’, that you still get very EXCITED by a certain activity. May I remind you that Bahati wants to slaughter lesbians as well, and they don’t do the activity in question? Many heterosexual men do – especially, I am told, in Africa.

  • Richard Willmer

    Two further points, ‘Maazi NCO MP’:-

    1. Despite my own views on the matter (viz that it is best if activists campaign, while governments ‘persuade behind the scenes’), I think that one possible major ‘plus’ relating to the ‘public announcement’ of the UK’s policy is that other governments will be encouraged to ‘clarify’ their own positions.

    2. The Bill is not only about the activity that so EXCITES you, it is also about other activities that are currently legal in UG, and which will remain legal for heterosexuals.

    If Bahati gets his ‘Bloodbath Bill’, it will perfectly legal for a woman to perform fellatio on a man, but a ‘hanging offence’ for a man to do so (on more than one occasion). Where’s the logic in that? (Of course, there is no logic … but then ‘logic’ is clearly not your strong point.) Also, if Bahati’s ‘Murder Bill’ replaces Penal Code 145, then the particular activity that so EXCITES you will, in many cases, have become legal! (Maybe that’s what you want, of course?!)

  • Maazi NCO

    see, ‘Maazi NCO MP’, that you still get very EXCITED by a certain activity.

    I am not excited by anything. The MPs of Uganda have already made their stance known to the world so there is nothing to be excited about.

    May I remind you that Bahati wants to slaughter lesbians as well, and they don’t do the activity in question?

    There is no slaughter programme in Uganda. Gayism whether committed by males or females is an abominable sex crime already punishable under existing laws which are in the process of being revamped by Parliament (regardless of the rantings of the Baby-Faced Prime Minister of the UK who should really be concentrating on fixing British Economy rather than looking for colonial misadventures)

    Many heterosexual men do – especially, I am told, in Africa.

    You were told wrong. Most Africans are sensible enough to refrain from descending so low to engage in abhorrent actions that degrade human dignity. Anal sex is almost the exclusive preserve of gay sex practitioners and that aberrant behaviour in Uganda (and other parts of Africa) is regarded as inhuman, insane, immoral, unAfrican and deviant.

  • Richard Willmer

    Recognizing reality (especially when it doesn’t meet his ‘political needs’) was never really ‘Maazi NCO MP’s’ strongest point.

  • Maazi NCO

    And the Government of Tanzania responds to Prime Minister Dave-Boy Cameron’s donor blackmail threats…

  • Richard Willmer

    I can’t say I particularly surprised by this response. The important point will be what people do, not what they say.

    In a way, countries like Tanzania have David Bahati to thank for the new British policy – a policy that has almost certainly been discussed in detail with other EU countries as well as the USA, Canada, Norway, etc. The appalling savagery of the Bahati Bill has made various governments realize that ‘something pretty major must be done’, and done quickly.

    The good thing is that overall aid is not going to be cut, so poor and vulnerable people will continue to be given support.

  • Maazi NCO

    I can’t say I particularly surprised by this response. The important point will be what people do, not what they say.

    In a way, countries like Tanzania have David Bahati to thank for the new British policy – a policy that has almost certainly been discussed in detail with other EU countries as well as the USA, Canada, Norway, etc. The appalling savagery of the Bahati Bill has made various governments realize that ‘something pretty major must be done’, and done quickly.

    The good thing is that overall aid is not going to be cut, so poor and vulnerable people will continue to be given support.

    Gay propaganda as usual…. You are quite the good propagandist. Aren’t you?

    BTW, I will like to see the look on the baby-face of Mr. Cameron when the Parliament of Uganda acts on the popular aspirations of the vast majority of the Ugandan people

  • Maazi NCO

    This should have been in block quotes as well:

    I can’t say I particularly surprised by this response. The important point will be what people do, not what they say.

  • Richard Willmer

    Thank you for the compliment, ‘Maazi NCO MP’. Good propaganda is fine, as long as it is truthful – and, to the best of my knowledge, everything I’ve said is true.

    Your attempts to ‘downplay’ the barbarity of the Bahati Bill, and your claims of systematic ‘recruitment’ of the young, mean that your propaganda is fatally flawed … and thus not very good at all.

  • Richard Willmer

    Don’t get me wrong, ‘Maazi’: I’m saying you’re not highly intelligent, but you seem to have convinced yourself of things that really aren’t true, and are consequently ‘talking yourself into a corner’.

    You know as well as I do that it is not only the British who now feel compelled to take action in the event of the Bahati Bill becoming law. There is widespread revulsion, and the response to the enactment of anything remotely resembling Bahati’s Bill will not go ‘unremarked on’ by many ‘western’ governments. I think you also know that Cameron’s position is not related only to the human rights of your gay compatriots, but has a wider scope. After all, the reduction of general budget support to the Malawian Government was the result of number of human rights concerns.

    If you and your colleagues were to return the kind of position that you declared to be your own back in December 2009 (i.e. that – and I quote – “Gays who … do their stuff privately will be left alone“) then you may well find that much (though not all) of the ‘heat’ would be taken out of this situation.

  • Richard Willmer

    Whoops! My first sentence should have read as follows:-

    “Don’t get me wrong, ‘Maazi’: I’m NOT saying you’re not highly intelligent …”

  • Maazi NCO

    Zambia and a faction of the Zimbabwean political opposition reacts to the blackmail of the baby faced UK PM

  • Richard Willmer

    To be expected. Nobody expected a ‘welcome’ from countries like Zambia or Tanzania for the UK’s policy.

    As ever, it’s what people do, rather than what they say, that matters most.

    (Isn’t it funny – as in ‘peculiar’, not ‘ :-D ‘ – how it is so often the case that blackmailers are the first to scream ‘blackmail’ when confronted with something they don’t like? The British policy is clear and logical: governments that preside over systematic persecution of their own people will see funds they presently receive being put to better use. I support the broad thrust of the policy, because overall aid will not be cut.)

  • Richard Willmer

    Incidentally, I do think that Morgan Tsvangirai’s declared support for ‘gay marriage’ as premature. I think that ‘Maazi NCO MP’s’ ‘baby-faced’ friend would take a similar view.

    The two key human rights (‘natural justice’) issues are these:-

    1. that homosexual persons are not treated differently under the criminal law to their heterosexual compatriots (e.g. oral sex is either legal for everyone or illegal for everyone), and

    2. that those who peacefully advocate respect for the human rights of their LGBT compatriots are not subject to criminal penalties.

    It is on these two aspects that the UK’s policy should focus. A parallel: people of all political parties should be free peacefully to present their principles and programmes, and all people should have the right peacefully to campaign for this freedom to be respected.

  • Richard Willmer

    There is third area of concern: employment rights / access to healthcare / access to accommodation / etc.

  • Maazi NCO

    Mate, it is not up to UK to police the world. The sun set on the British Empire a while back and the UK has been reduced to playing second fiddle to its former colony, the United States of America. You can say whatever you want, but no amount of threats or blackmail will cause us to shift ground on our pan-African conviction that gayism is deviant, immoral and un-African and will never be legalized or accorded any respect.

  • http://www.comingout4christians.net Dave

    Maazi … Uganda can do whatever it wants .. however if Uganda wants to be part of the global community and thus get help from the global community then it may find .. as other countries have .. that support and help is often tied directly to a country’s human rights practices. This is a simple reality .. not threats or blackmail. Nobody owes the country anything .. and no nation is obligated to provide financial or other assistant to it or any other nation. Uganda as well as any other nation can certainly have a moral positon with out incarcerating or killing everyone who doesn’t agree with it.

    Dave

    P.S.. To save you some key strokes in responding to this post let me add some words you will probably be saying … no gayism .. blah blah blah .. no blackmail blah blah blah .. no imperialism ..blah blah blah

  • Richard Willmer

    Indeed, what dear old ‘Maazi NCO MP’ is conveniently forgetting is that it is not only the UK that takes this line; many western governments do. And all four BRIC countries have now effectively decriminalized consensual same-sex relationships.

    As for ‘Maazi’s’ ‘pan-African’ huffing and puffing: well there are African countries where consensual same-sex relationships are not so-called criminal offences.

    One last point: the British policy on general budget support is not only about gays; it also relates to things like opposition MPs (hint hint) being treated fairly.

  • Richard Willmer

    Let us also not forget that the Bahati Bill is not merely a restatement of the status quo in Uganda and many other African states. It is dramatically more draconian than current anti-gay laws in much of Africa, including as it does a comprehensive, even lethal, attack on freedom of speech. Taking together Clauses 3 and 13, along with the definition of ‘serial offender’, makes it possible to sentence to death* those who object to what they see as the unjust treatment of their gay compatriots. No amount of dissembling by the likes of ‘Maazi NCO MP’ can disguise this.

    The advent of the Bahati Bill has given huge impetus to the ‘push’ against homophobia by many statespersons and governments around the world, including in Africa.

    * This is a more severe sentence than that reportedly handed down this week to the self-confessed murderer of David Kato. (Mind you, I’m not sure that – although he has been reportedly convicted of ‘doing the deed’ – Enoch Nsubuga bears the ultimate responsibility for that brutal crime. Given the reports of the secrecy of the court proceedings, one might just be forgiven for smelling some kind of ‘set up’ here.)

  • Maazi NCO

    however if Uganda wants to be part of the global community and thus get help from the global community then it may find .. as other countries have .. that support and help is often tied directly to a country’s human rights practices

    Dave (Cameron ?),

    I think I speak on behalf of the vast majority of Ugandans in saying that if “influence peddling fees” (allegedly “donor aid package”) is tied to gayism then Uganda are happy to live without “donor aid”. Please cut all financial aid as quickly as possible, but we shall not move an inch on the subject of gayism.

    P.S.. To save you some key strokes in responding to this post let me add some words you will probably be saying … no gayism .. blah blah blah .. no blackmail blah blah blah .. no imperialism ..blah blah blah

    Dave, you are really a funny chap. Are you sure you aren’t the Baby-faced Prime Minister of the UK? :D :D :D

    Indeed, what dear old ‘Maazi NCO MP’ is conveniently forgetting is that it is not only the UK that takes this line; many western governments do. And all four BRIC countries have now effectively decriminalized consensual same-sex relationships.

    The BRIC nations are not trying impose gayism on Africans. In fact, Russia and China regularly and unfailingly supports the position of the African Caucus within the United Nations whenever this dirty business of gayism is raised by the usual suspects from USA and Europe. In Australia, we are immensely grateful to Republic of India for wholeheartedly supporting African nations in their SUCCESSFUL bid to block attempts by an unholy alliance of Davey-Boy Cameron (PM of Britain), Kevin Rudd (ex-PM of Australia), Stephen Harper (PM of Canada) and Michael Kirby (Australian Judge and gay sex practitoner) to transform the Commonwealth of Nations into a pressure group for promoting gayism. It was the successful frustration of the unholy alliance that led to Cameron’s outburst in which he threatened to deny “influence peddling fees” (a.k.a “donor aid”) to African nations that refuse to bow to the wishes of the unholy alliance.

    As for ‘Maazi’s’ ‘pan-African’ huffing and puffing: well there are African countries where consensual same-sex relationships are not so-called criminal offences.

    In those francophone african nations (formely ruled by Belgium or France) without laws on gayism, the sexual behaviour is still abhorred as unAfrican, deviant and insane. Burundi has since passed laws on this subject in 2009. I believe the two Congolese nation-states will follow eventually as their political class and citizenry get sicker and sicker from the constant non-stop protelyzing antics of gay propagandists of the Western world.

  • Maazi NCO

    however if Uganda wants to be part of the global community and thus get help from the global community then it may find .. as other countries have .. that support and help is often tied directly to a country’s human rights practices

    Dave (Cameron ?),

    I think I speak on behalf of the vast majority of Ugandans in saying that if “influence peddling fees” (allegedly “donor aid package”) is tied to gayism then Uganda are happy to live without “donor aid”. Please cut all financial aid as quickly as possible, but we shall not move an inch on the subject of gayism.

    P.S.. To save you some key strokes in responding to this post let me add some words you will probably be saying … no gayism .. blah blah blah .. no blackmail blah blah blah .. no imperialism ..blah blah blah

    Dave, you are really a funny chap. Are you sure you aren’t the Baby-faced Prime Minister of the UK? :D :D :D

  • Maazi NCO

    Indeed, what dear old ‘Maazi NCO MP’ is conveniently forgetting is that it is not only the UK that takes this line; many western governments do. And all four BRIC countries have now effectively decriminalized consensual same-sex relationships.

    The BRIC nations are not trying impose gayism on Africans. In fact, Russia and China regularly and unfailingly supports the position of the African Caucus within the United Nations whenever this dirty business of gayism is raised by the usual suspects from USA and Europe. In Australia, we are immensely grateful to Republic of India for wholeheartedly supporting African nations in their SUCCESSFUL bid to block attempts by an unholy alliance of Davey-Boy Cameron (PM of Britain), Kevin Rudd (ex-PM of Australia), Stephen Harper (PM of Canada) and Michael Kirby (Australian Judge and gay sex practitoner) to transform the Commonwealth of Nations into a pressure group for promoting gayism. It was the successful frustration of the unholy alliance that led to Cameron’s outburst in which he threatened to deny “influence peddling fees” (a.k.a “donor aid”) to African nations that refuse to bow to the wishes of the unholy alliance.

    As for ‘Maazi’s’ ‘pan-African’ huffing and puffing: well there are African countries where consensual same-sex relationships are not so-called criminal offences.

    In those francophone african nations (formely ruled by Belgium or France) without laws on gayism, the sexual behaviour is still abhorred as unAfrican, deviant and insane. Burundi has since passed laws on this subject in 2009. I believe the two Congolese nation-states will follow eventually as their political class and citizenry get sicker and sicker from the constant non-stop protelyzing antics of gay propagandists of the Western world.

  • Richard Willmer

    We are reminded of a most interesting point here: that whether an Africa state currently has anti-gay laws seems to depend on former colonial power – the two exceptions that immediately spring to mind being South Africa (which legalized, not just decriminalized) and Burundi (which criminalized).

    I certainly didn’t expect everyone to clap and cheer when the proposal that the Commonwealth should work towards general decriminalization was announced. As for the BRIC nations: decriminalization / legalization is relatively recent (India decriminalized in 2009) and, as was the case in Britain back in, say, 1970, there is still much anti-gay feeling around. As Cameron himself suggested at the CHOGM, it’s really about ‘direction of travel’ …

    … which brings us back to Bahati’s Bill. The ‘direction of travel’ there is: more draconian, more violent, more totalitarian.

  • Richard Willmer

    (It is also the case that there have been calls in Ghana for a more violent policy towards gay Ghanaians … which is probably why Ugandan and Ghana have been identified as possible candidates for reduced GBS. Malawi has made its anti-gay laws more extensive and GBS has been cut.)

  • Pingback: Media report: Uganda’s Anti-Homosexuality Bill on Parliament’s Agenda Next Week — Warren Throckmorton

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